TikTok Took a Beating at the Supreme Court
Justice Neil Gorsuch criticized "the government's attempt to lodge secret evidence in this case." Still, things look grim for the app.

The Supreme Court appeared largely—though not entirely—unmoved by arguments that a federal ban on TikTok would violate the First Amendment rights of the app's millions of American users.
During oral arguments before the Court on Friday, the justices seemed inclined to agree with the federal government that a national security rationale was sufficient to force the app's Chinese parent company, ByteDance, to sell to an American company. That sale must take place before January 19, or else TikTok will disappear from smartphones.
President-elect Donald Trump opposes the ban and petitioned the Court to delay it until he takes office so that an alternative can be worked out. Shark Tank investor Kevin O'Leary and billionaire Frank McCourt have offered to buy the app for $20 billion, but ByteDance has insisted that it would sooner comply with the ban than sell the company. Supporters of the ban tend to see this as evidence that the Chinese government deems TikTok too useful for its nefarious propagandistic purposes.
Of course, even if it were true that the app is rife with Chinese propaganda, Americans enjoy the First Amendment right to consume such content. The justices seemed most skeptical of the government's case to the extent it hinged on this point. Justice Elena Kagan likened the banning of TikTok to the Red Scare, in which the federal government violated the free speech rights of American communists due to their affiliation with the Soviet Union.
"That's exactly what they thought about Communist Party speech in the 1950s, which was being scripted in large part by international organizations or directly by the Soviet Union," said Kagan.
Several justices also seemed disturbed by the secretive nature of the government's case against TikTok. National security experts have posited that TikTok poses a fundamental risk, but the evidence they showed to lawmakers has not been released to the public. Justice Gorsuch objected to "the government's attempt to lodge secret evidence in this case without providing any mechanism for opposing counsel to review it."
If it was just a matter of TikTok itself being banned, the justices would probably deem this an impermissible, content-based suppression of speech. Unfortunately, most of the Court seemed sufficiently persuaded that forcing ByteDance—a foreign company that does not itself enjoy First Amendment rights—to sell the app was not necessarily a content-based restriction on speech. On this front, the justices were too willing to trust that Congress had the best of intentions in forcing this sale; several justices, including Sonia Sotomayor, took the position that Congress was acting to safeguard data security rather than enforce speech suppression.
"How are those First Amendment rights really being implicated here?" she asked TikTok attorney Noel Francisco.
Francisco responded that First Amendment rights were under threat in very fundamental ways.
"In ten days, TikTok wants to speak," says Francisco. "In ten days, because this law was passed, TikTok cannot speak unless ByteDance executes a qualified divestiture."
The Court's decision is expected next week. If the justices rule against TikTok—as is widely expected—millions of Americans will lose access to a vital platform for self-expression, news consumption, and communication. It would seem obvious that this is a fundamental blow to the First Amendment; regrettably, nebulous national security concerns are often the most potent weapon against protections for free speech.
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Of course, even if it were true that the app is rife with Chinese propaganda,
Why are you still questioning this Robby? How many studies showing exactly this do you need? It is okay to admit to reality even if you don't like the outcome.
"even if it were true that the app is rife with Chinese propaganda"
Is that the primary national security claim in this case / law? I thought the main concern was that they were surreptitiously collecting personal data on millions of US citizens & residents and handing it over to their Chinese Communist overlords, for potentially nefarious purposes.
Believe it is both issues.
While issue 1 (Chinese government propaganda) may be true, that alone should not give Congress the power to divest it from foreign ownership. However, issue 2 (surreptitious collection of Americans' data for use by the Chinese government) falls squarely within Congress's national security prerogative, and I see the forced divestment of the company as the least harmful remedy. Issue 2 also does not concern rights protected by the First Amendment, even assuming ByteDance has such rights.
This is largely my take as well. Americans may be stupid if they do, but are still allowed to consume as much CCP agitprop as they care to endure.
But that doesn't mean that the largely foreign-owned company is allowed to do all of this data snooping or share that data with whomever they please, necessarily. That's a much stronger NatSec (and even consumer protection) case against TikTok / ByteDance than the 1A argument, in my opinion.
I'd still like to see some other remedy than a 'ban' on the company / service, even though I don't use it and never will. But I can see why the federal government might be able to make a legitimate claim that they have a compelling interest in not allowing the current situation to continue.
It's amazing TikTok is allowed to operate in the EU at all with their 'consumer protection' laws.
There is NO national security issue in this case. That's why they are throwing all the different strands of spaghetti to see which morons will respond.
This is 100% about ensuring that the yoots of America will not see/hear anything that the mainstream American media does not want them to see/hear. It's about the recipient of the speech not the speaker.
The timing of the ban is entirely because TikTok succeeded at reaching the 13-24 demographic - more than any other platform. That cannot be allowed for any non american company
^BINGO..... +1000000000000000000000.
"This is 100% about ensuring that the yoots of America will not see/hear anything that the mainstream American media does not want them to see/hear."
Is it really "secret" evidence if they had evidence that whatever information they are collecting is a national security threat??? I don't think TikTok users even have to provide valid info.
"...surreptitiously collecting personal data on millions of US citizens & residents..."
Heck. They can just buy that from Meta, X, et.al.
How many studies showing exactly this do you need?
One would be a start.
Well, this one ( https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.21.23.pdf ) was cited in the Department of Justice's brief in this case when it was before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit ( https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cadc.40861/gov.uscourts.cadc.40861.1208648321.0.pdf ).
I have no idea if it's any good (I haven't read it), but it's part of the government's argument.
Thank you, DRM. I hadn't seen this study.
Maybe this is an issue of semantics. This study shows that TikTok has reduced #ratios for topics important to the CCP relative to other social Media apps.
In other words, they are likely suppressing posts on Uyghurs Tiananmen Square; Tibet; Hong Kong; Taiwan; South China Sea Ukraine-Russia War; Kashmir Independence; and Israel-Hamas War.
While not cool, this is not a matter of national security, propaganda or worthy of a ban to me. Maybe others feel differently.
Declaring something to be a threat to national security gives politicians special powers. That’s why Trump’s first act as president will be to declare illegal immigrants to be a national security threat. That activates presidential tariff powers that’s he’ll use to move our top trading partners out of most favored nation status and raise the prices of everything.
This is no different. TikTok is being declared a national security threat not because it is, but because that allows the use of special powers and creates precedent.
Declaring something to be a threat to national security gives politicians special powers
Indeed.
Please refrain from feeding the sea lion.
He will die in the wilderness if you keep hand feeding him easily found things.
What Jesse is saying is don't fall victim (like he did) by revealing your sources to someone that may read them carefully, critique them and then publicize the truth which is contrary your narrative.
It seems to be a non issue here though, as DRM made no claims, but merely posted a study that countered my claims. I greatly appreciate DRM's post putting my argument to the test. I'd rather be educated than validated.
Despite being easily found and being given it a few days ago, the mighty sea lion will likely ask for it again.
https://wondermark.com/c/1062/
I didn't ask for anything.
"One would be a start."
Let me help you out here:
Can you show me one source to defend your baseless claim? Because I see you're lyin'.
Did I make a claim?
Sorry, Minadin. I didn't mean that to be targeted at you, but a rephrasing of my original statement to make it a sea lion worthy question aimed at Jesse.
My original post was not a request to show such a study, but a challenge that no such studies exist.
You are panicking over an invented threat to Americans conducted via social media? God you're a fool
Do you ever say anything thoughtful or interesting?
He's 0-for-forever on both counts.
JFucked is JFucked, ain't he?
In the name of 'saving' the USA lets ban the propaganda (press)?
Reminds of how [WE] can ?save? it by selling it to Japan.
Maybe D.C. thinks they can ?save? it by spending it?
Young JesseAZ, as the bell rings, furiously raising his hand, loudly exclaiming: "Teacher, Teacher...you forgot to assign us HOMEWORK"!
“President-elect Donald Trump opposes the ban“
Is this one of those “ignore what he says and look at his first term” or “ignore his first term and look at what he says” moments?
Or is it ... One of the best things about Trump is he isn't the typical Narcissistic leftard and can LEARN and change his mind for the better.
It's a ccp psy op
I'd say with the Facebook, Twitter, Parlor and etc....
It's a USA psy-ops thing.
Jonathan Haidt put out a great Substack yesterday detailing all the harms the app is doing to kids psychologically. Doesn't even take into account the CCP propaganda. I don't get the First Amendment argument. CCP and Bytedance aren't protected and there are other platforms available to disseminate the same content if you want.
So Congress has the ability to force Americans to only use apps made in America?
Haidt is not being very rational on this IMHO. His assertions sound a lot like the baseless assertions made during the Satanic Panic, and the Comic Codes, etc.
"Won't somebody think of the children (as a pretense)?"
Yes, yes they do, all the damn time.
other platforms ... not getting Biden's Ministry-of-Truth threat letters?
Even Reason has gotten a bunch of them.
"Congress shall make no law abridging the right of the people to post on TikTok
"...I don't get the First Amendment argument..."
That's because you're a slimy pile of lefty shit.
They kept screaming of national security, but never showed what the potential harm to Americans can be.
The potential harm is pretty much the same as in the Emperor's New Clothes. Can't allow any generation to have influences from other countries. Otherwise the yoots will not share the narrative that the geezers are selling.
Congress has the power to regulate foreign companies.
The end.
No they don't. They have the power to regulate imports and exports.
I suppose it depends on how broadly one reads Article I, Section 8's grant to Congress of the power to "provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States," " to regulate Commerce with foreign Nations," and those powers which are necessary and proper to carry these out.
The ability of Congress to act in this case, according to Article 1-section 8, to me is self evident. Congress does have the authority to "regulate commerce with foreign nations" and force the Chinese Communist Party to sell Tic-Toc.
Really>
Please explain how and why that is.
Not in ways that violate other restrictions in the Constitution.
For example, I hope you wouldn't think any of the following laws are constitutional:
(a) a law that banned foreign software apps if and only written by Jewish programmers.
(b) a law that banned books printed by foreign publishers if they contain criticism of Republicans.
(c) a law that foreign app developers have to give members of Congress and the president a personal emolument as a condition of doing business in the US.
(d) a ban on foreign platforms that allow US citizens to criticize the government.
In this case the government is complaining mostly about the data collection, not the published content, so the First Amendment case is weak. IF they'd directly targeted content (e.g. TikTok has to sell unless they stop permitting claims that Biden won in 2020) it would be different.
You forget your audience. I think the majority in these comments would support (b) 100% and not limit it to foreign publishers.
Hey Mike. Nice trick pretending Republicans are the ones who are pro censorship in your idiotic list.
Weird how all your hypothetical attacks go one way for being "neutral."
Anti-semitism is Republican?
Demanding bribes is Republican?
What an amazing admission. You've scored the official Own Goal of the Day.
And it's marked for when you attempt tomorrow to deny you made this admission. What an idiot.
A and B assume that the constitution extends beyond the borders of the US, false.
D assumes that the previous falsehood is enforceable. No government outside the US is under any obligation to respect the rights of Americans. That they do is fully their prerogative to cancel.
And C is definitely constitutional if money is indeed speech.
Jeebus, sarc was right. Someone showed up to defend the constitutionality of the examples.
And since they're clearly not, we know it's not principle. It's because you just like this kind of stuff.
You are wrong, there is a principle at play: the Constitution ends at the border.
Universalism is trash.
Has nothing to do with universalism or the rights of foreigners. The point is skirting US domestic civil liberties using foreign commerce as a pretext.
Do you understand the point of those examples? D would be an attempt by the US to censor Americans, C would be an attempt to get bribes in the US, B would be an attempt to suppress criticism in the US, and A would an attempt to hurt US Jews by making it hard for them to work for international firms.
The real targets would all be in the US.
I'm not in favor of your proposed loophole to allow the BoR to be circumvented in the US. Every single piece of technology in your house has some foreign parts. Would you that gives the government the authority to ban all of it selectively based on political leaning, religion, or receipt of some bribes.
The administration proposed some legitimate security concerns about data collection. They also floated some noxious stuff about propaganda, which I'm tempted to say should cancel out their better arguments.
I'm not in favor of your proposed loophole to allow the BoR to be circumvented in the US.
Then you believe that the rights in the BoR are indeed universal. No other country has any obligation to indulge this fantasy.
Problem is ... US Citizens consider TikTok part of their 'press'.
It's far more of a violation of citizens rights (No Law abridging the press) than any water behind cases of national security. As many have pointed out 'propaganda' calls practically settle that into stone.
TikTok ban "Nay" Senate Votes = 2[D], 15[R].
And again; Democrats want this MORE than Republicans.
Kagan who loves FISA and it's secret courts along with Biden using government agencies to enforce censorship should just keep her mouth shut on this one.
'Justice Elena Kagan likened the banning of TikTok to the Red Scare, in which the federal government violated the free speech rights of American communists due to their affiliation with the Soviet Union.'
But how does she feel about Russian interference in 2016 to elect a Putin puppet?
The Red Scare has all the hallmarks of Russian misinformation.
"In ten days, TikTok wants to speak," says Francisco. "In ten days, because this law was passed, TikTok cannot speak unless ByteDance executes a qualified divestiture."
Wait, so TikTok itself speaks? I'm baffled here. Will they be unable to post on TikTok once it's sold? It seems if it was sold they would actually have more free speech. Irony.
Not that I care on this one, it's a dumb case involving a dumb company that does dumb things that's based out of a dumb country. Maybe I should care, but I have trouble getting mad about this one.
The point is about if it’s NOT sold. Then it can’t “speak.”
I'm not seeing it laid out anywhere that TikTok, or ByteDance, is in any way being constrained in their speech regardless of if it's sold or not.
I don't buy the U.S. governments 'national security' excuse, or any of their other excuses really, but I also don't see how this makes any sense.
In fact, right now today they are constrained by the Chinese government in what they can say as a matter of Chinese law. The idea they would be more restricted being sold to a U.S. firm is questionable at best.
"... a national security rationale was sufficient to force the app's Chinese parent company ... to sell to an American company."
Why? Because Americans would never do anything to compromise national security?
"National security experts have posited that TikTok poses a fundamental risk."
Of what? To whom? Are these the same "national security experts" who are data-mining American communications on a massive scale the ChicComs could only dream about? Who is the greater threat to Americans - the ChiComs or the NSA?
"We could tell you but then we'd have to kill you."
Not at all liking the idea of the First Amendment yielding to 'national security interests', particularly where no one knows what those interests are or what form they take, other than through whatever self-serving blather the government might propose.
Seems like The Old Slippery Slope.
That said, it would seem that any remedy proposed by Tik Tok -- including divestiture -- would be a sure fire fail. Enforcement would likely be an impossibility even if Tik Tok were to promise to be good. Tik Tok already bears the Byte Dance imprimatur. Hard to imagine unravelling that.
"millions of Americans will lose access to a vital platform for self-expression,"
I disagree with your efforts to sexually degrade yourself, but I'll fight for your right to do it.
I have great grand-kids that go to elementary school in the U.S. The kids of that generation are fixated on gender dysphoria issues. The primary source of this fixation is social media. The number one social media app for grammar school kids is TikTok. Can anyone think why the Chinese Communist Party may want to sew the seeds of turbulence and dysphoria upon an entire generation of American kids?
Are parents too lazy to raise their own kids?
Only Gov-Guns can raise kids! /s
Do we have a right to a platform in which we can post expressions? That seems to be Reason's argument.
Tik Tok isn't being forced to change ownership for hosting or expressing "wrong" opinion like CCP propaganda, but for (allegedly) essentially acting like spyware for the CCP. If the government had compelling evidence, then this likely isn't an 1A issue.
Chris Wray has told the media that China's cyber spy programs have stolen record amounts of our secrets. They sent spy balloons. They're also, you know, TECHNICALLY guilty of a lab leak that killed far more people than some wars and Donald Trump.
Consider who was the president for the last 4 years, and the hapless ninnies who have been running CA. Eric Salwell and Diane Feinstein have employed Chinese spies. We can't just defer to China in the name of commerce. The SC should definitely ask the government for proof though.
"...TECHNICALLY guilty of a lab leak that killed far more people than some wars and Donald Trump..."
Why is it that TDS-addled steaming piles of shit have to PROVE they are TDS-addled steaming piles of shit at every opportunity?
fuck off and die, asshole.
Dude, chill out and/or sober up.
I saw nothing in that post that came across as TDS. That "TECHNICALLY" wording came off as sarcasm, and the rest of their post read far more like Trump talking points than Biden talking points.
There's a lot of people on this site with TDS (and most of them have the title of "Senior Editor"), but if XM has TDS, this particular post really isn't evidence of that.
Tik Tok is not just a platform for self-expression, news consumption, and communication - but also commerce. There are many people, including my wife, who run businesses and sell on the platform. Many of which may well go under if Tik Tok goes away.