2 Contradictory Decisions on AR-15 Bans Reflect Clashing Views of Supreme Court Precedents
Does the Second Amendment allow the government to ban guns in common use for lawful purposes?

Last month, a federal judge ruled that New Jersey's ban on AR-15 rifles is unconstitutional. A week later, a federal appeals court deemed a similar ban in Maryland perfectly consistent with the Second Amendment.
These dueling decisions reflect a basic disagreement about whether the Second Amendment allows the government to ban guns that are commonly used for lawful purposes, as opposed to "dangerous and unusual weapons." The answer seems clear based on the Supreme Court's precedents.
The Court's landmark 2008 decision in District of Columbia v. Heller, which overturned a local handgun ban, noted "the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of 'dangerous and unusual weapons,'" which it said did not encompass firearms "in common use" for "lawful purposes like self-defense." Since handguns are "the quintessential self-defense weapon," it said, the fact that they are also commonly used by criminals could not justify prohibiting law-abiding Americans from owning them.
The Court's 2022 decision in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen reiterated that point. "Whatever the likelihood that handguns were considered 'dangerous and unusual' during the colonial period, they are indisputably in 'common use' for self-defense today," it said. Colonial laws that "prohibited the carrying of handguns," the Court concluded, "provide no justification for laws restricting the public carry of weapons that are unquestionably in common use today."
AR-15s likewise are "unquestionably in common use today." Since 1990, more than 28 million "modern sporting rifles" have been sold in the United States, and as many as 24 million Americans have owned AR-15s or similar rifles for lawful purposes such as self-defense, hunting, and recreational target shooting.
Like the law at issue in Heller, U.S. District Judge Peter Sheridan noted last month, New Jersey's AR-15 ban amounts to "the total prohibition [of] a commonly used firearm for self-defense…within the home." And under Heller, "a categorical ban on a class of weapons commonly used for self-defense is unlawful."
Sheridan highlighted testimony showing that "AR-15s are well-adapted for self-defense." When it upheld Maryland's AR-15 ban last week, by contrast, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit declared that such rifles are "ill-suited and disproportionate to the need for self-defense."
That conclusion, Judge Julius Richardson noted in a dissent joined by four of his colleagues, ignored the self-defense advantages of AR-15s, including better accuracy, greater recoil absorption, and more stopping power than handguns. While handguns also have certain advantages, Richardson said, the appeals court had no business second-guessing gun owners' weighing of these rifles' pros and cons, thereby "replac[ing] Americans' opinions of their utility with its own."
Where Richardson sees self-defense advantages, the majority sees features that make AR-15s especially deadly in mass shootings. These clashing perspectives illustrate the folly of trying to draw a legal distinction between guns that are suitable for legitimate purposes and guns that supposedly are good for nothing but killing innocent people.
The 4th Circuit's opinion is long on detailed descriptions of such horrifying crimes but short on the sort of analysis required by Bruen, which said gun control laws must be "consistent with this Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation." And the appeals court's discussion of mass shootings features several familiar distortions.
The 4th Circuit calls AR-15s the "weapons of choice" for mass shootings, even while noting that most mass shooters choose other kinds of guns. It emphasizes their military lineage, which Richardson notes is common for civilian firearms, and their destructive power, which is shared by many rifles that Maryland did not ban.
The appeals court never acknowledges that mass shootings account for a tiny percentage of gun homicides or that handguns play a much bigger role in murders than any sort of rifle. It therefore never squarely confronts the point that the Supreme Court made in Heller: that criminal use of guns does not negate the right of law-abiding Americans to own them. It looks like the justices will have to remind the lower courts of that principle.
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Does the Second Amendment allow the government to ban guns in common use for lawful purposes?
No grasshopper, it does not.
Just thought I'd point out...I agree.
Agreed, the “in common use” test is sufficient to answer the question. But precedent also makes hash of the “military lineage” argument despite attempts by some to misread Justice Scalia’s below comment (dicta) from DC v Heller(2008).
From Heller: “It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.”
Certain judges have fixated on the words “and the like” in the above cite and have concluded that AR-15s are in same category as M-16s and thus outside the protection of the second amendment. But since the National Firearms Act of 1934, the critical distinction between those arms which citizens may freely possess, as opposed to those arms which require additional tax and special permitting, has been semi-automatic versus fully automatic functionality. The possession of M-16s and other fully automatic firearms (machine guns) has been heavily regulated.
Unlike M-16s, semi-automatic rifles are not highly unusual in society at large. Nor are AR-15s, specifically, highly unusual in society at large. What distinguishes AR-15s from other semi-automatic rifles that are commonly not included in assault weapon bans is that AR-15s are civilian versions of current military hardware. If anything, this ought to be viewed as a plus in terms of second amendment protection since this compatibility enhances contribution to the common defense. Note that the Supreme Court in US v Miller(1939) cited an early state court case, Aymette vs TN (1840), which said plainly that the citizens have the unqualified right to keep arms that constitute the ordinary military equipment.
From Miller: “In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a ‘shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length’ at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158.”
From Aymette: “the arms the right to keep which is secured are such as are usually employed in civilized warfare, and that constitute the ordinary military equipment. If the citizens have these arms in their hands, they are prepared in the best possible manner to repel any encroachments upon their rights by those in authority.”
In conclusion, by maintaining the bright line distinction which has been in place for more than 8 decades between full auto versus semi-auto functionality, lower courts can heed Justice Scalia’s comment (dicta quoted above) while correctly applying the Heller and Miller precedents.
Not quite: Said bright line is actually contrary to the Miller precedent honestly applied, since the Miller Court held that what made ownership of a firearm constitutionally protected was military utility, and actual military rifles are, under current law, "machine guns". Nothing has better proven military utility than the firearms the military is actually using, after all.
The key point to understand is that Scalia's interpretation of Miller wasn't any more honest than Stevens'. While Stevens wanted the 2nd amendment rendered moot, Scalia wanted it at least neutered a bit. Basically nobody on the Heller Court was trying to just uphold it, period.
If you follow that through to a logical conclusion the 1934 Firearms Act is unconstitutional. The Militia component of the 2nd Amendment supports the ownership of military grade weapons.
Yes, the 1934 Firearms Act is unconstitutional. Had the Supreme Court of the time not been under Roosevelt's New Deal-related threats (ulitimately leading to the failed court-packing scheme), they likely would have found it so at the time. Sadly, the current court is committed to incrementalism and will only chip at the edges rather than going to the root of the problem.
Yes, the 1934 Firearms Act is unconstitutional. I look forward to the FPC, GOA, SAF, and other pro-Constitution organizations getting it thrown out.
Agreed that US v Miller, plus the fact that M16s are now the ordinary military equipment, should mean that the possession and use of M16s by ordinary citizens is protected by the second amendment.
Also agreed that the cited dicta in Heller would effectively neuter the second amendment if it becomes a Supreme Court holding.
That said, lower courts do take into account supreme court dicta, so one cannot fault them for doing so. What we can fault the MD court for is for amplifying and misrepresenting Scalia's M16/Machine gun comments while ignoring the actual holdings in Heller and Miller, as well as the aforementioned bright line that has existed for more than 80 years.
Yes, I'm not saying that the MD court did was legit. This isn't about clashing views of what Supreme court precedent should be. It's about clashing views of whether it should be followed, or violated while pretending to follow it.
And the MD court was firmly in the latter camp.
You fail to mention that the M-16 evolved from the AR-15 sporting rifle. Anti-gun nuts fail to mention that. I've never been a fan of the AR platform, but, that's my preference. I have a Ruger Mini-14. When I originally bought it, it had a wood stock and foregrip. Over the years the stock and foregrip have worn from use, so I replaced them with a fiberglass stock and grip. That very action would run me a foul of some "assault rifle" bans. The Picatinny Rail that I installed to allow the quick change of sights and scopes would run me a foul of the rest. I've never made a change to the firing mechanism other than replacing worn parts for safety.
My point on this is that I have the same firing rate as an AR, with the same accuracy.
In the hands of a competent user almost any weapon is capable of a mass shooting and that includes bolt action rifles.
Fortunately most mass shooters are not competent. The Colorado theater shooter discarded one of his pistols because it jammed. The Vegas shooter had at least three weapons in the room that had jammed. Instead of their learning how to prevent or clear a jam, they just brought more guns.
Right. The correct distinction is between full auto ("machine guns" as per Heller) versus semi-auto. Courts focusing on appearance, rates of fire, and supposed military grade are purposefully moving that line, and misrepresenting precedent which counted military usefulness as a plus rather than a disqualifying characteristic.
"I have the same firing rate as an AR, with the same accuracy."
More power to you, I couldn't get rid of my Mini-14 fast enough. Terrible accuracy and an even worse trigger. Awful rifle.
Agreed i have a mini and the magazine insertion is terrible and clumsy when it works and it is not nearly as accurate. but i do have one to tall non gunners that they are the same but legal
He fails to mention a lot of rather obvious and superficially irrefutable facts, fact patterns, and policies both technical to the firearms and the science and the law that actively refutes his fundamentally incorrect narrative.
Ketanji Brown Jackson and America’s Abuelita aside, the Justices back in time to and including the Founding Fathers aren’t abject morons. If they felt that automatic fire were somehow actually exceptional to the 2A, they could’ve explicitly stated as such. They didn’t. Specifically the opposite. Regulators regulated a smorgasbord of weapons they perceived to be only useful for nefarious purposes that just happened to include semi-automatic weapons. Moreover, they didn’t ban them specifically because they couldn’t ban them. So they taxed them.
The understanding that I have of Michael Hihn’s death and the somewhat different tone, lacking a SQRLSY-One-esque tone of screeching about insane irrelevancies and girl bulliers!!!, it seems like someone in favor of gun control saw his schtick and thinks that by seeming less abjectly insane, they can pull off the whole “I’m just trying to have a legitimate discussion.” sea lion idiocy. Otherwise, someone came up with the same set of stupid ideas independently (or not) and is unaware that Hihn already peddled this retardation around these parts.
Ultimately, Hihn or not, the argument boils down to a selective interpretation that’s something between “Because ‘penaltax’, socialized medicine is Constitutional.” and “Because Plessy v. Ferguson segregation is Constitutional.” He may be correct that the law doesn’t factually and directly refute his assertion, but he’s not on the side of individual liberty or morality while he tries to drape himself in
TheSCOTUS’s interpretation ofhis selectively piecemeal interpretation of various SCOTUS’s interpretations of our Constitution.Michael Hihn died? When? How?
Hash was made and discussions were had on these forums. We're not the DoD confirming the death of Bin Laden here. Highlights of the notes I didn't take:
This Michael J. Hihn looks an awful lot like "our" Michael J. Hihn.
In the same Wayback link, libertyissues.com, owned, published, and edited by our Michael Hihn gaps out in 2020 and comes back up "Domain For Sale!" in 2021.
There were also various comments indicating that our Michael J. Hihn was living in the Pacific Northwest.
And, finally, he largely stopped posting around that time as well.
Is our Michael Hihn the same Michael Hihn on a bit of the fringe of the LP decades ago? I don't know. Is 'our' Michael Hihn the one in the obituary? I didn't see the guy log in and then immediately die so I can't say for sure. Did 'our' Michael Hihn stop posting and stop maintaining his website around the time that this obituary with a guy who looks an awful lot like him appeared in a region of the country he was known to post about and was active in IRL? Yes.
Thus, 'my understanding of his death' rather than just 'his death'.
with the same accuracy.
THAT'S NOT WHAT I'VE HEARD!
The only difference between a "sporting" semi-automatic rifle in .223 and the "assault" rifle in .223 is some plastic. No civilian rifle is automatic, they are all semi-automatic at best, meaning they fire one bullet for one pull of the trigger.
I have one .22LR rifle that started life as a plain-jane Ruger 10-22, a gun that anyone not terrified of guns would say is a simple underpowered varmint hunting rifle.
Replace $100 worth of plastic--keeping the barrel, magazine, and firing chamber (i.e., the pieces that make it a gun) but replacing the stock and adding a shroud around the barrel--and viola, it's an "assault rifle". It has *EXACTLY* the same rate of fire, *EXACTLY* the same # of bullets, and *EXACTLY* the same potential for harm but now must be banned because it is scary looking.
The M-16 is the designation that the DOD used when the Armalite designed and designated AR-15 rifle was adopted. Before the Army adopted it Air Force General Curtis LeMay procured 9,000 AR-15's to replace the aging M1 & M2 Carbines AF security personnel use. So, other than prototypes & evaluation rifles the only select fire (machine gun) AR-15's are those that the AF procured. Semi-auto only rifles with AR-15 markings on the lower receiver are Colt "Sporter's". Almost simultaneously with the AF procurement Colt like other arms mfg's that sell to the US military and police they came out with a semi-auto only version of the AR-15 and to satisfy the feds called them Sporter's as well as made design changes to make it hard to modify to select fire or full auto. I am not sure whether all these components are still different on current Sporters: lower receiver doesn't have hole for the auto sear retaining pin & front right side takedown hote is drilled & tapped, bolt carrier hammer slot longer to prevent tripping an auto sear, front takedown pin is a special screw, hammer doesn't have auto sear engagement notch. P.S. all the clones use M-16 bolts & have M-16 front take down pins.
Therefore, the sporting AR-15 came after the military AR-15 and M16.
In conclusion, by maintaining the bright line distinction which has been in place for more than 8 decades between full auto versus semi-auto functionality, lower courts can heed Justice Scalia’s comment (dicta quoted above) while correctly applying the Heller and Miller precedents.
Your dishonest, revisionist history is bullshit. Moreover your concomitant and selective invocation of Scalia feels an awful lot like a Hihnfection.
First, your retarded, revisionist bright line and “8 decades”: anyone with even a passing familiarity with firearms law knows that until 1986, which is well less than 8 decades from now, full-automatic weapons could be produced, owned, and sold. Buyers simply had to buy a tax stamp for them. Even today, fully automatic weapons can be bought and sold by private citizens and are not, de facto, banned.
Second, the wider retardation of your selectively interpretive bullshit: silencers, SBRs, SBSs, and any other Title II, destructive device, or AOW, *may* require a tax stamp, regardless of the automatic/semi-automatic nature of the weapon and/or the presence of a trigger. Fully automatic, hand-cranked Gatling Guns are perfectly legal. Integrally-presupposed semi-automatic handguns, and breach-loading, double-barreled shotguns less than 16 in. in length require a tax stamp.
Third, the implicit authoritarianism as a result of your “bright line” bullshit and historical revisionism: the government can effectively circumvent any aspect of the Constitution simply by burdening it slowly enough, in an indirect enough manner, or both (or even none of the above 'in case of emergency').
In conclusion, go fuck yourself you creeping, dishonest, revisionist-history-spewing, gun-control-advocating, (false) authoritarian asshat.
Dear mad.casual,
Reading is fundamental. Let’s compare what I wrote with what you wrote.
What I wrote: “But since the National Firearms Act of 1934, the critical distinction between those arms which citizens may freely possess, as opposed to those arms which require additional tax and special permitting, has been semi-automatic versus fully automatic functionality. The possession of M-16s and other fully automatic firearms (machine guns) has been heavily regulated.”
What you wrote: “First, your retarded, revisionist bright line and “8 decades”: anyone with even a passing familiarity with firearms law knows that until 1986, which is well less than 8 decades from now, full-automatic weapons could be produced, owned, and sold. Buyers simply had to buy a tax stamp for them. Even today, fully automatic weapons can be bought and sold by private citizens and are not, de facto, banned.”
Simply? Do you suppose that a $200 tax stamp in 1934 did not amount to a heavy regulation?
Is 1934 to 2024 more than 8 decades?
Who said machine guns were banned?
Would you say that machine guns are heavily regulated today?
Your second point is not relevant to the issue at hand (are AR-15s “like” M16s).
Your third point makes sense but there is no disagreement between us on that. I do not agree with Scalia’s comment/dicta regarding M16s and the NFA, but I also do not pretend it is not part of Heller.
I can only hope that you were too angry to think straight when you posted, perhaps upon sober reflection you will revise your post.
Dear Tard,
Since the dawn of the spoken word, reading is not more fundamental than understanding. Most children learn this intuitively by the age of about 4 when they can listen and understand and follow directions which allow them to learn to read and write. At which point they rather intuitively realize that just because someone looked at something, it does not mean they were paying attention and understood it. Even if they don't intrinsically realize it then, somewhere around Kindergarten to 1st grade they generally start getting graded on reading comprehension and composition as separate from mechanics, rather literally spelling it out for them. So, thanks for giving us all a fantastic demonstration that you are quite capable of dragging your eyes over the words and regurgitating what was written without an understanding of what you read.
What you wrote: "the critical distinction between those arms which citizens may freely possess, as opposed to those arms which require additional tax and special permitting, has been semi-automatic versus fully automatic functionality"
What's actually fact: The NFA made many distinctions among which automatic fire was only one. You may think automatic fire was more critical but that's not how the law or history or facts work. Originally, concealable arms, including the revolver used in an attempted assassination of Roosevelt, were to be included. Sawed off weapons to get around the pistol 'ban' were specifically thrown in to this effect.
Do you suppose that a $200 tax stamp in 1934 did not amount to a heavy regulation?
You mean the stamp that, again by your own selective retardation, did and does apply to short-barreled rifles, shotguns, and silencers *too* for "more than 8 decades"? The stamp that, after 1986, no longer exempted newer machine guns even if it did exempt newer SBRs, SBSs, and silencers? Almost like there was no "critical distinction" between the "more than 8 decades" between 1934 and 1986?
Is 1934 to 2024 more than 8 decades?
Did you read this before you wrote it? Did you understand it? You realize that, as plainly indicated in writing such that a grade-schooler could understand it, multiple times now, there was no "critical distinction" under the law between a machine gun and a SBR, SBS, or even a silencer until much, much later?
Your third point makes sense but there is no disagreement between us on that.
There is disagreement between us on that because you're contributing to it. Since your reading comprehension skills seem to be consistently short: here you go.
Othias @1:05:56 - "We are the victims of enforcement *not even* of the law and people forget that. Like they go "Oh that's illegal." and you're like it isn't even illegal it's just enforced. That's it. It's just enforced without regard to the law or not. That's insanity."
Matt - "And then and people will fight us and say no no this has always been the case. Why? Like one... When i was at cato we had this concept called 'the statrix' and it was that some people are so immersed in being dominant dominated by the state that when you suggest to them that freedom may exist they react with like violent apprehension."
They go on to explain how people in states with blue laws refuse to accept that, in other states, people can buy beer in open containers at gas stations or that people from places like New Jersey will travel to S. Carolina buy a handgun and ask where they register it. To the point that they will insist that the sale must be registered. Along those lines, and this is also covered in the video, this 8 decade distinction is a fabrication. There were numerous fully automatic (and semi-automatic and handguns...) weapons on both sides of WWII, the only ones to be attempted to be declared a war crime by either side were standard issue shotguns that are perfectly legal today.
This is what Matt means by "The Statrix" there is a historical reality where people until the late 60s/early 70s (*not* "more than 8 decades"), both domestically and abroad, generally saw things like shotguns, concealed weapons, and frangible or otherwise cruel and inhumane ammo as far more heinous than automatic fire and your false claim of a more than 8 decades old critical distinction doesn't dispel those facts and that reality.
I can only hope that you were too angry to think straight when you posted, perhaps upon sober reflection you will revise your post.
Can you understand what you read? Because you were able to drag your eyes over and repeat my screen name. I'm not angry, you're just wrong and progressing towards something between willfully ignorant and self-defeating and oxymoronically stupid.
There was, in fact, no "more than 8 decade old" "brightline" "critical distinction" between semi-automatic weapons and fully automatic weapons any more than there was a "more than 8 decade old" "critical distinction" between suppressed and unsuppressed weapons or sawed-off shotguns and riot guns. Any bright line was Title II and they were *all* on the other side equally. The same ATF that processed your tax stamp for a short-barreled shotgun in 1940 was the same ATF that processed the same tax stamp for your Thompson or your M-1 Carbine or your M-16 decades later. *Maybe* you could make the case that progressively, through the '68 GCA and the '86 FOPA semi-automatic weapons came to be regarded as exceptional or critically distinct, but then that's *still* nowhere near 8 decades and *still* runs afoul of your point and supposed opposition to definition/scope creep, especially given your awareness about the inversion around things like "military usefulness".
"What’s actually fact: The NFA made many distinctions among which automatic fire was only one"
And who is saying the NFA did not? You seem to really enjoy knocking down strawmen. The other items you list are simply not germane to the discussion.
I am not sure if you are a troll or just severely lacking in ability to reason and to make logical arguments. For the purposes of the constitutionality of the MD ban on AR-15s, It does not matter that the NFA regulates items other than machine guns. The salient point is that AR15s are not machine guns, and not "like" (as per Heller dicta) M16s and other machine guns.
I suspect that even a well below average grade-schooler would question why you think it germane to write "there was no “critical distinction” under the law between a machine gun and a SBR, SBS, or even a silencer until much, much later?" when the rather obvious issue is whether AR15s are "like" machine guns. I do not recall the MD court comparing the rate of fire of AR15s and silencers, do you?
Fools rush in. Thankfully the pro-individual right legal strategy was led by wise men such as Alan Gura, not fools who demanded everything, all at once. Mad.casual is like the older son in the Bible, who was handed a bundle of sticks by his father, then was challenged to prove himself by breaking the bundle. The older son struggled and became frustrated as he was unable to break the bundle of sticks. I do not recall if he called his father a retard before handing the bundle to his younger but wiser brother, who then untied the bundle and broke each stick one by one.
DC v Heller (2008): confirmed that the RKBA is an individual right versus the Federal government which includes self-defense in the home, without implicating Incorporation.
MacDonald v Chicago (2010): confirmed that the Second Amendment is incorporated by the 14th amendment against the states.
NY Rifle v Bruen (2022): confirmed that the right to bear arms for self-defense includes outside the home.
Up next: Hopefully a SCOTUS decision that AR-15s and other semi-auto firearms are not “like” M16s (as per Scalia’s dicta in Heller), and being in common use for lawful purposes are protected by 2A.
Longer term: Confirmation that the Second Amendment protects the right of the people to keep and bear those arms which constitute the ordinary military equipment as well as those arms commonly used by the people for other lawful purposes such as self-defense.
Longer term
According to whom? You? Did someone declare you king of the gun law community? Because I've seen the people breaking the sticks *and the bundles* and none of them are named Mike Hansberry.
I'd rather dissolve the ATF and obliterate similar regulatory authority even outside the 2A. None of the flowery prose and expansion of coverage of the 2A means anything if any Freddie Gray off the street can still be picked up for a "legal(?)" knife in his pocket and given a nickel ride into oblivion.
And who is saying the NFA did not?
You. When you said “the critical distinction between those arms which citizens may freely possess, as opposed to those arms which require additional tax and special permitting, has been semi-automatic versus fully automatic functionality”. *The* is singular and “critical” means “indispensable” or vital. 7 is not “the critical distinction” between 1 and 4. A gall bladder is not a critical distinction between humans and other animals. Automatic/semi-automatic fire isn’t and wasn’t a critical distinction until much, much later.
Again, you claim to be against snatching ever-expanding regulatory precedent out of any given modern zeitgeist or ambiguity but that’s precisely what you’re doing.
I am not sure if you are a troll or just severely lacking in ability to reason and to make logical arguments.
It would plainly seem to be your cognitive abilities more fundamental than reading (as I linked to a video of Matt Larosiere [who may in fact overturn the NFA] effectively handing you “one stick” and, despite criticizing me for my ability to ‘break the bundle’ you clearly failed to do *anything* with it).
I didn’t say anything about AR15s being “like” machine guns. You inferred that (an actual critical distinction between what I’m saying and what you are but not *the* critical distinction). I said your ‘critical distinction for more than 8 decades narrative’ is plainly and self-evidently false and subsequently pointed out that it’s part-and-parcel to the same, whimsical narrative expansion and twisting that has gone on here and within the gun control community for decades. To the point where you can go to places like NYC and New Jersey, where people believe patently false legal statements… like “For more than 8 decades there has been a critical distinction between automatic and semi-automatic weapons with regard to prohibition and/or regulatory burden.” Where you can go to even relatively banal other places across the country and meet young people who think “Of course you can’t buy guns at Wal-Mart. You’re not allowed to sell guns at a regular convenience or a big box store.” not because of any actual law preventing the sale of guns at convenience stores, but because regulators and their useful idiots have pushed a patently false narrative or were too stupid to realize that’s what they were doing.
More than 200 yrs. before Christ, in the Hellenistic Era, was a Statesman and King of the Molossians who waged war, initially successfully, against the Romans. The Romans eventually overwhelmed him with superior numbers such that he is noted as lamenting “If we are victorious in one more battle with the Romans, we shall be utterly ruined.” The leader is Pyrrhus and this gave rise to what is known as a Pyrrhic Victory. Winning the battle over whether M-16s are like AR-15s by sacrificing historical and future understanding about where the authority to make any such distinction is derived in the first place is a rather crystalline example of such a victory. Even if you win the argument, you’ve still ceded the premise and any law banning any given weapon or making any such distinction is irrelevant to the broader presumption or acceptance of the authority.
Another common saying is that “The first amendment ends where the second amendment begins.” This statement is true the other way as well. “The second amendment ends where the first amendment begins.” If, through talking and association, people can be convinced by the government and associated actors that they don’t have the right to own any given arms, or go outside freely, or attend Church, or a bar… then their rights are infringed even without passing a law specifically infringing on any part of the Constitution. And doubly so if the underlying authority is just assumed.
"Winning the battle over whether M-16s are like AR-15s by sacrificing historical and future understanding about where the authority to make any such distinction is derived in the first place is a rather crystalline example of such a victory."
Not at all. There is no need at this time for an all-or-nothing battle, and certainly no need to sacrifice historical and future understanding to show that AR-15s are not "like" M16s as per Scalia's dicta in Heller. We need not even broach the NFA constitutionality to win. And no reason at all to delve into silencers, SBRs, or any other topic aside from semi-auto versus full auto.
Had the pro-individual rights side insisted on an all or nothing battle in Heller, we might now be stuck with something like Silveira from SCOTUS. Pyrrhus' mistake was seeing each battle as must win at all costs, instead of strategically winning by weakening the opponent more than himself. If winning Heller could only be done by inclusion of Scalia's dicta regarding the NFA, that was not a pyrrhic victory as it enabled victory in MacDonald and then Bruen.
You are like some others here want to bitch and moan, stomp their feet in anger, that we are not getting the full protection of the Second Amendment immediately. Yes, it would have been great if the courts had upheld the full scope of the Second Amendment in one fell swoop. As it is, the Left’s bundle of lies needs to be taken apart piece by piece. Just consider how far things have advanced in the last 30 years when ridiculous opinions from the 9th circuit such as Hickman(1996) and Silveira(2002) were the norm. Hickman claimed that the RKBA was a State Right despite the plain language of 2A. Silveira claimed 2A protected only a collective right. But with Heller, even the dissenters were forced to admit 2A protected an individual right, though according to them, only when in service of the militia. What remains for the gun grabbers? Can they say with any plausibility that 2A protects an individual right to keep and bear arms when in service of the militia, but only such arms that are not useful for military service? Will they make a complete u-turn and deny the import of the second amendment's prefatory phrase, of US v Miller, of Miller’s cite to Aymette v TN? They are now boxed in terms of logic and history. All they have left in their quest to ban AR-15s is to misrepresent Scalia’s dicta concerning machine guns and the NFA. Needless to say, a fair reading of Scalia’s comment does not place semi-auto firearms in the same category as machine guns.
Leaving the more difficult battle of challenging the constitutionality of the NFA for another day would not result in a Pyrrhic victory. Instead it is a continuation of a sound strategy of incrementally weakening our opponent by playing our strongest hand while risking as little as necessary.
If you want to examine a pyrrhic victory, look no further than Silveira (9th circuit). The Left thought they had defeated the pro individual right interpretation for all time, but they were too clever by half in proposing an interpretation that was wholly unsupported by history. Once they had to admit that the second amendment protected an individual right rather than a collective right, they could only fall back to a position (a limited individual right to keep and bear arms only when in service of the militia) they had rejected out of hand in Silveira.
Heller was anything but a pyrrhic victory. It was the first step towards complete vindication of our second amendment rights.
From the majority opinion in Heller (pg 52): “We may as well consider at this point (for we will have to consider eventually) what types of weapons Miller permits. Read in isolation, Miller’s phrase “part of ordinary military equipment” could mean that only those weapons useful in warfare are protected. That would be a startling reading of the opinion, since it would mean that the National Firearms Act’s restrictions on machineguns (not challenged in Miller) might be unconstitutional, machineguns being useful in warfare in 1939.”
Later on page 55 the Heller majority goes on to say: “It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service — M-16s rifles and the like —may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause.”
In context, the Heller majority’s use of “and the like” immediately above is a clear reference to other machine guns, not merely to some vague grouping of firearms which might share some characteristic other than full-auto capability with M-16s. Note that the M-16 is a particular example of the larger class (machine guns) that Scalia mentions previously in regard to the supposed constitutionality of the NFA. So the “and the like” phrasing reads most naturally as having the same meaning as “and other machine guns” rather than "and other scary rifles."
"The 4th Circuit calls AR-15s the "weapons of choice" for mass shootings, even while noting that most mass shooters choose other kinds of guns. It emphasizes their military lineage, which Richardson notes is common for civilian firearms, and their destructive power, which is shared by many rifles that Maryland did not ban."
Inconsistencies notwithstanding...they want to ban what they want to ban.
They just want to stop all the gang violence in the ghetto!
Thinking this is sarcastic, but damned Poe and all, sometimes it's hard to tell.
But you do bring up an interesting point; as the axiom goes, "there are no blue states, only 15-20 blue cities trying to tell the rest of us how to live." The overwhelming vast majority of gun crimes occur in very discreet urban areas within the environs of these cities; whereas most recent estimates indicate that there are as many as 40 million ARs owned by some 26 million individuals who are overwhelmingly responsible and law abiding.
If there is any logic to be had, it would make sense to leave all of the millions law abiding persons alone while focusing on doing something about the several thousand criminals who generate all of the crime statistics vs. banning every type of weapon they possibly can. If accomplished, this would lead to a Great Britain situation where bladed weapons [remember when London's homicide rate eclipsed New York a few years ago] are predominately used, and then we would have a knife problem.
The SWAT teams would go into these discreet urban areas because that's where the gun crime happens!
Yeah, it sounds logical.
Ban assault weapons and make it easier to put away the gangbangers.
Consider this, though.
the same side pushing for these assault weapons bans...
..are the same side that wants decarceration, wants defunding the police, accuses the cops of habitually hunting down and gunning down unarmed Black men, accusing the criminal justice system of being systemically racist.
Whom are they really after?
Actual knowledge only interferes with feelings, narratives, and ideology.
Does the Second Amendment allow the government to ban guns in common use for lawful purposes?
No.
Does the Second Amendment allow the government to ban guns.
No.
The AR-15 is in common use by gangs like the Crips and the MS-13 when they do drive-bys in the ghetto!
Cite?
That was the rationale for the law in the first place!
Cite. I reject drive bys as a basis for this legislation. ARs are used in a tiny fraction of homicides. This has NOTHING to do with public safety.
Some people need to recognize /sarc when they see it.
I don't doubt that some of them do use long guns, but stats indicate that rifles of all types [not just the "alphabet guns"] account for around 3% of all gun homicides. Out of 18,854 gun homicides in 2023, this would be around 560. Again, that is all types of rifles, not just the "black" ones.
So, back to SCOTUS once again.
We can hope, especially under its present composition.
ALL gun regulation is unconstitutional.
ALL of it.
And any court that rules otherwise is wrong.
How much more direct can you get than 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms(not 'guns' ARMS) shall not be infringed'
Especially when the same constitution allows letters of marque and reprisal?
Also known as privately owned and operated WARSHIPS!!!
You know, cannons and boarding parties and keeping the booty and all that stuff.
Yeah, the aspect about how contentious it was for the government to keep a standing army gets *way* underbilled in all these discussions.
A lot like how people want to pretend to be libertarians by talking about open borders and immigration without talking about welfare reform.
So Trump can keep and bear a firearm when he's in prison? Well, if you say so...
. . . as opposed to "dangerous and unusual weapons."
To quote Lazarus Long, "there is no such thing as a dangerous weapon; there are only dangerous men".
I've got an old Damascus barrel rifle for you to play around with, if you really believe that.
No, not really, if I did it would be hanging over my fireplace, right next to that 20mm Sothburn I should have spent my allowance on instead of that all those paperback books.
Good one! I made the same comment on Quora about 300 Blackout being fired in 5.56 ARs by accident.
That's still the result of a dangerous man... just, "to himself".
I doubt you could get a 30 caliber bullet to chamber in a 22 caliber rifle. You could get the 223 to easily chamber in the 300 BO, though.
Does the Second Amendment allow the government to ban guns in common use for lawful purposes?
*Looks at my own state laws*
Yes.
Have you considered the possibility that your own state laws violate the 2nd amendment?
If stealing hubcaps were illegal, but you steal them anyway, and no one arrests, stops or prosecutes you for it, what good is the law?
It takes great mental contortions to not consider the statements made and the reality of the framing of the Constitution to think that the militia is the National Guard, or for law enforcement, or even that military-style arms are not included as arms the people arm expected to keep and bear. Neither hunting, self-defense, nor law enforcement was the impetus for the 2nd.
The root of the 2nd is to allow the armed people to defeat a standing army of the federal government, should it ever come to that. The founders knew first-hand that they could never have defeated the British army if the people--the militia--had been successfully disarmed.
Consider the reality of the birth of this nation. The Militia--the people--had overthrown a despotic government. Recognize that one of the things that despotic government had tried to do was disarm the people--because unarmed people are easier to rule by force--and that it was, in part, armed citizenry that fought that war.
The Founders were creating a new government, and knew that someday the government they were creating could become despotic despite all the check and balances and would need the militia to rise again to preserve Freedom.
The Founders were keenly against maintaining a standing army. For most Americans after the Revolution, a standing army was one of the most dangerous threats to liberty, and James Burgh called a "standing army in times of peace, one of the most hurtful, and most dangerous of abuses" while others said called a standing army "that great support of tyrants" more often set loose upon the citizenry than against the armies of other nations in war.
[I'm keenly aware of Joe Biden's F-15 threats.]
So the Constitution has multiple protections that are supposed to protect against a federal government running roughshod over the people: the 2nd, and the prohibition about funding standing army for more than 2 years being the strongest (despite that has been circumvented for a long time).
“The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American … the unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.”
-Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788
“[I]f circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.”
– Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28, January 10, 1788
“As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”
– Tench Coxe, Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789
“If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.”
– Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28
“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of.”
– James Madison, Federalist No. 46, January 29, 1788
“No free government was ever founded, or ever preserved its liberty, without uniting the characters of the citizen and soldier in those destined for the defense of the state…such area well-regulated militia, composed of the freeholders, citizen and husbandman, who take up arms to preserve their property, as individuals, and their rights as freemen.”
-Richard Henry Lee, Gazette (Charleston), September 8 1788
“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined... The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun.”
– Patrick Henry, Speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 5, 1778
The “common use test” can’t sustain long term as an interpretive tool for the 2A. It confines civilians to only current technology, all the while the enemies of the country, government constables and ordinary hoodlums acquire state of the art future weapons.
Modern individual small arms issued, carried and drilled with by ordinary infantry riflemen and/or police agencies are protected arms for the civilian. Period.
Not sure what about the 2nd Amendment has to do with self-defense or hunting. The clear basis for the 2nd Amendment is to leave the power with the people and states. SCOTUS should rule that the basis for limiting ANY firearm MUST be whatever is allowed by any police force in the state, federal, state, municipal, including the FBI, SWAT etc. They have it, we can have it. That is it.
I'm happy with squad-level weapons in the military as well.
Individuals are NOT building a case for what we can have. The government is building a case for why we can't have them. The burden is ALL on the government, and whatever limits apply, apply to government.