The Libertarian Party vs. Chase Oliver
The L.P.'s presidential ticket finds itself fighting state parties and a national chair.

In May, the Libertarian Party (L.P.) nominated Chase Oliver and Mike ter Maat as its presidential and vice presidential candidates. Oliver is most famous for his presence on the ballot as a Libertarian Senate candidate in Georgia, where he earned more than 2 percent of the vote and sent the 2022 Senate race to a runoff that the Democrats won. Ter Maat, unusual for a libertarian, is a former cop.
Before the end of June, two state affiliate parties vowed they would not submit Oliver and ter Maat's names to appear on their state ballots. One state, Colorado, announced in early July that it would instead nominate Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
This week the secretary of the Libertarian National Committee (LNC), Caryn Ann Harlos, used her legal authority as national secretary to submit the Oliver/ter Maat ticket to Colorado's secretary of state office anyway. The LNC is the governing body of the national party. Harlos is herself a member of the Colorado L.P. but strongly objected to the Kennedy nomination. The Oliver campaign also this week submitted a necessary slate of electors to the state.
How this will play out in November is uncertain. The Colorado L.P. still intends to file to get Kennedy on the ballot as a Libertarian, though it is likely his campaign will submit enough signatures by the deadline today to achieve that without the L.P.'s help. Colorado secretary of state spokesperson Jack Todd told The Denver Post that dueling filings from the same party is something the state has never had to deal with before.
Montana's Libertarian Party also announced in early June that it would not put Oliver on its state's ballot and encouraged other states to follow suit. The Montana L.P. asked the national party to "consider suspending and replacing him." At publication time, Montana's party chair had not responded to an email asking if his party intended to submit a different name or leave Montanans no L.P. presidential ticket to vote for.
Another state L.P., Idaho, saw its secretary, Matt Loesby, publish an open letter in mid-June calling on the LNC to rescind Oliver's nomination, mostly because of his position on transgender care for minors. Idaho's official state party account retweeted Loesby, though according to an email from Loesby last week, the party has made no formal decision to keep the Oliver ticket off its ballot. (New Hampshire's L.P. also rejects Oliver, but he can get himself on that state's ballot without its cooperation.)
The Oliver campaign is in a peculiar position for a presidential nominee, fighting a two-front war against some state L.P.s, leading elements of the national party, and apparently some aggrieved delegates who hired a lawyer. One front is arguing that Oliver ought not be the L.P.'s national standard bearer, and one is arguing that he already legally is not, due to alleged irregularities in the delegate seating process at the May nominating convention in Washington, D.C.
The first case is summed up in the bill of grievances from Colorado and Idaho's Loesby's open letter. Colorado takes issue with Oliver making the personal choice to wear a mask during COVID-19, insufficiently defending his opponent Donald Trump from accusations made against him, and being arguably more consistently libertarian than it is on minors' right to make choices about their medical care in alliance with parents and doctors.
Asked if anything might make him reconsider his opposition to Oliver, Idaho's Loesby said in an email that "if Chase Oliver were to publicly recant his position regarding so-called 'Puberty Blockers,' and recognize them as child sexual abuse, I would reconsider my opposition to the ticket."
Trans issues are the flash point for many of Oliver's most vocal opponents. Oliver is against state action in an area where his opponents insist state action is morally required to prevent the child abuse they believe is inherent in allowing parents, doctors, and minors to make decisions about chemical or surgical gender-change interventions without state interference. Oliver sticks firmly to the libertarian idea that the state should not interfere with the decisions a parent, child, and doctor make about appropriate or desired care. (Oliver is asked about the "transing kids" stuff far more than he brings it up on his own; when the issue is brought up, he routinely stresses the small number of children and families affected by this issue.)
The second case—that Oliver isn't legally the candidate—is expressed in detail in a letter sent on June 19 to the LNC from lawyer Carl A. Anderson of the D.C.-based law firm Rock Spring Law Group. Among the assertions in that letter, which threatens but does not announce an actual lawsuit (or actual plaintiffs), is that five state delegations at the May nominating convention had delegates whose placement was done in violation of the lawyer's interpretation of either D.C. law or L.P. bylaws. (Anderson has not responded to requests for comment.)
The LNC had private executive session meetings this week that discussed "potential litigation," which might have been related to this letter, although the L.P.'s national communications director declined to comment on anything related to Anderson's letter. That letter states outright that "ineligible votes did not explicitly enough [sic] to change the outcome of the election for the presidential nomination" but that "the addition of illegal votes may have made Chase Oliver's support appear stronger than what it actually was influencing the outcome in other ways."
Angela McArdle, in her second term as the chair of the LNC and from the Mises Caucus faction that did not want Oliver to win, is a major public voice for the party. Oliver's victory was hard-fought and narrow, only beating "none of the above" with 60 percent on a seventh ballot. On various podcasts and videos posted to her X account since Oliver got the nomination, McArdle has made it clear her goal for the L.P. this year is to ensure that Trump wins the presidency. She said in her endorsement video, "I endorse Chase Oliver as the best way to beat Joe Biden," while talking up promises Trump made to commute Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht's sentence and put a libertarian in his cabinet. A party pamphlet being given out at FreedomFest this week contains two paragraphs of praise for Trump before mentioning Oliver; the thought behind this strategy is that by leveraging Libertarian voters' power strategically, it can ensure that a major party candidate wins who will, its proponents believe, achieve significant libertarian, if not Libertarian, goals.
More subtle aversions to Oliver beyond explicit policy commitments are apparent in a video about "moral courage" from McArdle. The implied allegation in that video is that Oliver is insufficiently red-pilled—too normie, too willing to accept what McArdle calls "mainstream narratives" (such as that, say, COVID-19 could be deadly and some precautions might prevent its spread, or that Trump may have committed some crimes and that him being tried for them might be justified). In some libertarian-ish circles these days, the rejection of mainstream narratives is seen as equally or perhaps more important than having a libertarian vision of the role of the state, with the affection for Kennedy the most telling sign of this attitude.
Currently, the LNC is considering forming a joint fundraising committee with Kennedy, who certainly opposes mainstream narratives on vaccines, though he is far from espousing consistent libertarian policy positions. Harlos has been upbraided publicly on the LNC's business email list by McArdle for daring to place the L.P.'s nominee on her state's ballot rather than Kennedy. The LNC is currently voting on a motion to ensure it files all necessary nominating paperwork for Oliver with state election officials. So far at least six members of the LNC have voted against this.
For his part, Oliver has been out on the road conducting an ordinary presidential campaign, including public appearances, media spots, and advertising. His X feed is full of hits on debt, gun control, bodily integrity, and presidential legal immunity. He stresses his youth—he's 38—compared to his doddering major party opponents. His real-time replies on X to the Biden/Trump debate focused on the roles of both men in inflation and rising debt. He called for medical choice for veterans, more immigration and nuclear energy, reduced tariffs, and less American support of foreign wars. He advocated a way out of Social Security to give Americans greater control over their finances and offered a general snarky contempt for the delivery and records of both men.
Oliver is unfortunately barely being included in any polls, but one post-debate poll from Suffolk University/USA Today had him at 1.4 percent, ahead of other third-party candidates Jill Stein (1 percent) and Cornel West (1.3 percent).
Dustin Nanna, chair of the LNC's ballot access committee, said in a phone interview in late June that they are locked in 36 states and have ongoing ballot access efforts, some funded by the party and some all-volunteer, in the others. "The goal from the LNC should always be to do whatever we can to ensure ballot access in as many states as possible, and I do believe in our capacity to get on" the remaining states, with the exception of New York, which since the last election raised its access standards for third parties to near-impossible levels.
This much opposition within the L.P. to its nominee is "highly unusual," said Oliver's campaign manager Steve Dasbach, himself a former LNC chair, in a phone interview in late June. "Had a different candidate been the nominee and states taken actions about not putting them on their ballot, I think we'd see stronger reactions from the LNC." Dasbach thinks moves against Oliver's access are "not in the best interests of the Party as a whole, and not in the best interest of registered Libertarians in those states."
To Dasbach, Oliver's position on trans issues is "straight out of the party platform" with its support for medical freedom for individuals and for parental rights against state interference. Dasbach also has found some Libertarians erroneously believe Oliver supported mask or vaccine mandates merely because he personally chose to wear a mask or socially distance in some circumstances.
"We are working with the LNC and we are confident we'll ultimately be able to work these issues out and Chase will appear on the ballot in all states where the L.P. is qualified," Dasbach says. "It's just a matter of Chase and Mike and our campaign working with the LNC and those state parties to address their concerns."
"We are not attempting to tilt the election one way or the other," Dasbach says. "We are seeking people fed up with the choice between Biden and Trump irrespective of whether they lean left or right."
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Where does the Libertarian party stand on thought-crime?
It's fine as long as:
1. Government threatens/bribes private companies to use it
2. It's used against the right people
3. It's also okay when enormous multinationals band together to form pseudo-governments who threaten completely unrelated third-parties over social and political issues.
House Judiciary Committee Report: Globe’s Largest Companies Colluded In ‘Likely’ Antitrust Violation To Censor Conservatives.
Where does the Libertarian party stand on thought-crime?
The neck?
You win
It seems that for many on this message board, anything other than kissing Trump's ring is a thought crime.
Yeah, no.
Yeah, TDS really messes with your mind. Soon enough people will be talking about tax evasion, foreign investments, and the President’s son’s laptop and all you’ll be able to think is “They just want to see his dick pics.” My understanding and observations, It’s really more aggressive and in a lot of ways worse than syphilis. You should really get yourself checked out.
Oliver noted his support for federal LGBTQ anti-discrimination protections,
https://www.wabe.org/georgia-gops-top-candidates-move-harder-right-on-lgbtq-issues/
Special rights for favored classes!
The more you see Chases arguments the more he sounds like the libertarian caricature a Democrat would come up with. Just put a gun on his hip. Have no real plans. Shout some bumper stickers. LP candidate!
He has no depth or understanding of the issues. He is an unserious candidate.
He is an unserious candidate.
For an unserious party. It's appropriate.
Said it before, my days of not taking the Libertarian Party seriously have definitely come to a middle.
Lol
Seems like a good compromise candidate. The left wing libertarians like him, and the pro-Trump right wing libertarians don't have to worry about him pulling a bigger share of votes from Trump than from Biden.
And after that debate, a lot of horrified democrats can vote for RFK Jr.. at least tin the states where the democrats couldn’t keep him off the ballot.
Moved.
2nd.
Yet his real time answers to questions asked Trump and Biden during their "debate" are more cogent, thoughtful, and truthful than either of the two old farts running for president.
But you could say that about any bright fourth grader.
Half the questions were specifics to either Joe or Trumps policies lol. It is much easier to criticize someone else than to defend your own stances.
Look how badly he failed the medical transition question with Liz.
You can’t be serious with this comment.
And responding with no details in 2 minutes is literally an example of no depth. Lol. Chase has failed in virtually every long form interview when pressed for specifics.
Half the questions were specifics to either Joe or Trumps policies lol. It is much easier to criticize someone else than to defend your own stances.
Kinda foundational to the magazine and potentially the party as well, it's a tactic to make yourself look like viable opposition without having any actual principles or practical ideology yourselves.
There's certainly a valid concept of "The alternative to having a plan is not having a plan." but if you lack even greater conviction and clarity of vision you aren't a more viable option. You're certainly not a Founding Father, or even a Guy Fawkes or a Martin Luther, you're just some effective ~95 IQ pothead who thinks "Man, like, wouldn't it be cool if maps have no lines?!?"
Almost like the existing party is trying to make him (or Johnson, or Jorgenson) *look* like opposition rather than effectively function oppositionally.
He is an unserious candidate.
So par for the course
The more you see Chases arguments the more he sounds like the libertarian caricature a Democrat would come up with. Just put a gun on his hip. Have no real plans. Shout some bumper stickers. LP candidate!
But, he doesn’t have a gun on his hip. Regardless, he’ll draw more votes away from the Democrat rather than the Republican, or draw less votes from the Republican (or less than a Libertarian normally would), either of which could easily throw the swing state of Gerorgia to the Republicans, and could be the state that puts the Donald back in office.
He’s gay. That’s all anyone needs to know. He’s a leftist. It’s genetic. Just like how legal status makes someone a leftist. It’s genetic. Foreigners and faggots are all letist. They're all vermin spreading their disease. And we all know what you do with vermin. You exterminate it. Faggots, leftists, "illegals" and everyone else who doesn't support Trump. Leftists. Kill them.
/if JA and ML were capable of honesty and saying what they really believe.
Sarc is totally out of “ideas”.
Poor, miserable sarc...
Poor, miserable haters who hate, hate hate... Glad I'm not one of you.
Crawl back into the bottle
Said after his first comment lol. Said after continuing to allude to Trump being Hitler lol.
“Poor, miserable haters who hate, hate hate…”
Says the poor, miserable, angry drunk as he hates, hates, hates on everyone here.
Self awareness isn’t Sarcasmic’s superpower.
It amuses me that only you and Jeff keep harping on his sexuality as the decision point. Almost like you support leftist identity politics.
How’d that work out for you and Jeff this morning?
Why do you think people call you a leftist?
I actually didn't know that, and it's mostly because the few things I've heard from him made it obvious he was an idiot without knowing a single thing about his personal background. There was no reason to find out more since it was patently obvious he's retarded.
He is doing one thing, I suppose, and that one thing is making Gary Johnson look good by comparison. And Johnson took on a guy as VP that actually came out and said the other candidate was a better choice. Haha, right?
He’s gay. That’s all anyone needs to know.
Jesus, Sarcasmic, we fucking know. Oliver makes sure we know every second of the fucking day.
Except nearly everyone that’s said anything against him has talked about his positions on policies, not identity politics bullshit
Look on the bright side. Actual libertarians will either stay home or vote for Trump in November. Plus, it has now been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that ranked choice voting is awful.
No one who votes for Trump can be considered libertarian. Words have meanings and actions speak louder than vapid protestations.
Poor, poor sarc...
Think you mean the liberaltarians calling themselves libertarian need to reluctantly vote for Joe like in 2020.
Strategically and reluctantly.
So the president that lowered regulation and devolved power to the states is in constitutional?
This.
Negiote, champion and sign your name to Covid trillion dollar bills and allow federal health authorities to trample on the civil liberties of every American should disqualify you from any libertarian. Fuck no, to Trump or Biden.
Yes, because remaining ideologically pure will make you feel a lot better as you're lined up against the wall comrade!
The actual libertarians will be taken out with long range munitions anyway. It's safer that way.
“Get in loser, we are stopping Biden. We have to do everything we can to kick Joe Biden’s ass. One of the best ways to do that is to support Chase Oliver and go hard in the paint for him in blue states …
.
“I am 100% here for that clown show. We have to work very aggressively, especially in blue states, to make sure he has the support that he needs from the national party. I encourage people to try to use the Chase Oliver campaign to pull protest votes from the left.”
Mcardle
Sounds like a plan.
thats how you make lemonade !
As a leader of the LP with the candidate they have it is an aggressive strategy to hit the 5% threshold for automatic inclusion next go-round. If you're truly 3rd party and agnostic on duopoly winner then this is good for the LP.
No offense, but Gary Johnson had more of a chance than this Oliver wingnut and we already know how that worked out.
If the national party nominated him, they should put him on the ballot, but let's make a minor change to see if people can understand why an "arguably more libertarian" position could be or should be opposed by a sane libertarian party:
"Colorado takes issue with... being arguably more consistently libertarian than it is on minors' right to make choices about their [adult sexual partners] in alliance with parents and doctors."
But literally no one here is arguing on behalf of some mythical "minor's right" to decide these things. It has always been about parents' rights to decide what is best for their children.
And before you say "well what if the parents say it's okay to have sex with kids", the transgender transitioning stuff has always been about treatment of a medical condition. Having sex with kids is not a treatment for a medical condition.
And before you say "well what if some crackpot doctor says it's okay to have sex with kids in order to treat some imaginary disease", then I and I think a lot of people would be fine with some safeguards to ensure that whatever medical procedure is being contemplated, is a legitimate one that has been validated at least to a reasonable degree and has a standard of care that has been accepted broadly by the medical community, so individual crackpot doctors don't get to circumvent child abuse laws in this manner. Also, it's an argument in favor of medical licensure (at least to a limited extent), and doctors who recommend sex with kids to treat an imaginary disease ought to lose their licenses.
"And before you say “well what if some crackpot doctor says it’s okay to have sex with kids in order to treat some imaginary disease”, then I and I think a lot of people would be fine with some safeguards to ensure that whatever medical procedure is being contemplated, is a legitimate one that has been validated at least to a reasonable degree and has a standard of care that has been accepted broadly by the medical community, so individual crackpot doctors don’t get to circumvent child abuse laws in this manner. "
Which is essentially the argument being made regarding pre-puberty and pre-teen transitions. That just because some doctor says it's a legitimate treatment for a legitimate disease...it's begging the question. It might be just a bunch of quacks, bent on an agenda and discarding any alternatives or evidence of negative consequences.
Jeff is sick.
Jeff is a monster.
Okay then. If your concern is about quack doctors making terrible decisions about a particular treatment, the solution then is to punish the quacks, not to ban the treatment.
But it's exclusively quacks who are offering the "treatment".
How does a real libertarian tell the difference between a quack doctor and a real, accepted doctor (prior to receiving treatment, of course)?
Real doctors don't deliberately cause harm to patients.
how does a real libertarian tell the difference between a president that is cogent and one that is demented - (prior to a debate, of course)?
You believe your lying eyes and trust your rational faculties.
The question is whether the "treatment" benefits anyone; it may be that the only people claiming that the treatment is a genuine medical intervention are quacks grinding an agenda.
Jeff’s standard of care is literally listening to WPATH whose entire defense of child mutilation is refuted by the CASS report. Transitioning kids either medically or surgery has no effect on helping kids mental issues nor suicide rates. All the while Jeff endorses the liberal use of transitioning even when told 95% of confused children grow out of it within a few years.
Jeff has constantly denied the detransitioners and their horror tales of what goes on and the encouragement they receive to mutilate themselves.
Jeff is a disgusting person whose only care is leftist ideology. He practices new age Lysenkoism. He would tell an anorexic girl to get her stomach stapled and use ozempic.
It is a complicated subject and, unlike you and your team, I don't claim to have all the answers. WPATH has one set of recommendations, and nobody, not even themselves, said that it was the final word on how to treat gender-questioning kids.
The overarching goal is, or at least ought to be, to help kids discover who they were meant to be, instead of trying to force kids to be who we think they should be.
"It is a complicated subject and, unlike you and your team, I don’t claim to have all the answers."
Creepjeff for: "I haven't received my talking points yet and don't want to go off message"
It isnt even complicated. Neither was knowing lysenkoism was bad science. Jeff just puts politics above honesty.
Why are you so obsessed with sex with kids Jeff? Not enough humiliation the last 2 days?
Now you're supporting permanent medical harm for kids. While, not directly due to past mockery, quiting directly from WPATH, whose studies have been fully refuted.
Your obsession with harming kids is amazing to watch.
For the record path has said they engage in medical malpractice
the transgender transitioning stuff has always been about treatment of a medical condition.
It has nothing to do with treating any medical condition. "Transitioning" does not treat or cure any disease, and even the practitioners don't claim it does. People who have "transitioned" continue in their delusion.
We mustn't forget about mental health. Once the media jet engine sucks a child's brain into its engine, unisex bathrooms could be next. "Me? I'm ... unisex. You know: I have all the anatomical faucets that people who use the public restroom need."
Did you have a point?
And before you say “well what if the parents say it’s okay to have sex with kids”, the transgender transitioning stuff has always been about treatment of a medical condition.
What is that medical condition?
To think just a couple weeks ago he was backed into a corner and finally admitted it was a mental issue, yet here he is back to the WPATH lies.
Generally mental instability and confusion brought on by grooming by predatory adults.
That does seem to be an environmental factor in a lot of cases.
Gender dysphoria.
Here is an article that might help.
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria
I’m proud of you for admitting it’s a psychological disorder.
Eventually you might get why equating hormones/surgery with chemotherapy is completely illogical.
Chemotherapy is also not used for treating mental disorders.
I'd argue that doctors who recommend puberty blockers or hormone treatments to gender nonconforming minors showing early signs of homosexual orientation or presenting prominent comorbidities alongside gender dysphoria ought to lose their licenses.
Another state L.P., Idaho, saw its secretary, Matt Loesby, publish an open letter in mid-June calling on the LNC to rescind Oliver’s nomination, mostly because of his position on transgender care for minors.
Reason is still doing the trannie “care” narrative.
Matt Loesby’s campaign is titled “Stop doing Evil”. As in stop mutilating children.
Children are the property of their parents, to do with as they choose in consultation with health care providers and teachers. /Jeffy
Children are the property of the state and parental authority should be overridden by such moral paragons as Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis. /Mises 'Libertarians'
So parents can mutilate their children and it’s ok as long as it’s the parents? And it's wrong if the state steps in to prevent child mutilation?
This is a fucking weird/perverse stance.
Well, he’s a fucking weird pervert.
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Unread
Your bad-faith leading question illustrates my point. Who decides whether a particular action is a valid medical procedure, or if it is "child mutilation" and therefore child abuse?
I will be the very first one to admit that medical procedures involving gender transitioning fall in a gray area. There are reasonable arguments on both sides. And the libertarian impulse is, or ought to be, that when there is a gray area like this, we should err on the side of parental authority to decide what is best for their kids - for the same reason that we err on the side of individuals to decide what is best for their own lives.
I think it would be entirely prudent to have some safeguards or regulations in place to make sure that if a child does undergo gender transitioning - with the full consent of all parties involved, obviously - that all parties are absolutely certain of what they are doing and that there is a rigorous standard of care that is followed.
But I cannot support outright banning it, because there are some individuals out there for whom gender transitioning IS a valid medical solution to their very real psychological and physical problems, and is NOT a form of child abuse. I think that the challenge ought to be to make sure that gender transitioning should only happen for those kids for whom it is very clear that it is the appropriate medical solution, and not for others.
"Who decides whether a particular action is a valid medical procedure, or if it is “child mutilation” and therefore child abuse?"
Humans.
Evil monsters and the denizens of hell either don't or pretend they don't understand why castrating and ripping uteri out of minors is wrong.
The more I show you are a lying shill, the more you try to dehumanize me and strip me of my humanity.
That is what bitter losers do. They cannot win on the merits so they try to destroy the person.
You’ve never once shown me to be a “lying shill”, but at least forty other people here tonight have demonstrated you to be a lying shill.
It’s really amazing. People here are calling you out left and right and showing how dishonest you are, and yet you somehow have enough guts to to throw stones. Do you somehow imagine people here can't see those, what, one hundred other posts pointing out your rank dishonesty?
You’re really amazing in a gross, horrifying way, monster.
You’ve never once shown me to be a “lying shill”
oh yes I have, but you will never admit it
one hundred other posts
oh good, appeal to the mob. Yet another fallacy.
This is why you call me names - so you can just repeat them over and over to gaslight people. And because you cannot argue honestly against me.
You have done no such thing. You’re serially crushed by him and pretty much everyone else here. Then you run away and come back the next day like it never happened.
In any case, the average voter may be even more ignorant than most anyone literate enough to go from reading articles to making coherent statements in print.
Ignorance appeals to status quo that two certain major political parties have managed to dominate somehow an illusion of already having solved these problems to the satisfaction of everyone voting as majority.
The problem will be gone in any case because someone has been working on it. And that fact is not necessarily a brand name political unity effect.
If a parent claims that their 6 year-old child has body dysmorphia and needs to have an arm amputated, and some doctor agrees, is that something we're going to unquestioningly support of something we're going to try to prevent.
Hell, most states don't let under-18s get tattoos.
If an 18-year old or any adult wants to spend their own money to transition, power to them. I don't think that's something that children should have forced on them by parents or to be able to decide for themselves. Nor do I want to support that through tax dollars any more than I want to pay for hair-transplants or boob jobs or caps on teeth. I just don't care how much one's psyche would be damaged by not being able to pay for those things on their own.
or boob jobs...
Hold on a minute.
Maybe we could add a line to the 1040 so citizens could voluntarily contribute to a federal boobjob fund.
But only for hot chicks.
Or chicks who would be hot if they got boob jobs.
Yes.
If a parent claims that their 6 year-old child has body dysmorphia and needs to have an arm amputated, and some doctor agrees, is that something we’re going to unquestioningly support of something we’re going to try to prevent.
I don't think "we" should be actively supporting or "we" should be actively preventing anything. I think that "we" should instead make sure that:
- the child has a proper diagnosis, perhaps evaluated by a few doctors
- the proposed standard of care meets some rigorous medically sound standard
- all parties are very clearly informed and all very clearly consent
And then let the parents make the decision that they think is in the child's best interests.
Now if *you* want to give your unsolicited advice to the parents, you are free to do so. If you want to propose your own alternative treatments, including the option of no treatment at all, you are free to do so.
Incidentally, I think this is exactly how it should work whenever parents are faced with a tough and difficult decision regarding their children. "We" should butt out and let the family have space to deal with their situation in their own way.
That’s a long winded way of saying you don’t think the state should stop a doctor and parent from agreeing to cut off a 6- year olds arm and that children can consent to outlandish things. Or is that not the gist of what you just said?
I believe that is what he said.
He had to say that. Otherwise his whole argument breaks down. So yeah, it's gotta be ok to chop off a kid's arm.
"In some libertarian-ish circles these days, the rejection of mainstream narratives is seen as equally or perhaps more important than having a libertarian vision of the role of the state, with the affection for Kennedy the most telling sign of this attitude."
The problem with having a small party with non-mainstream but principled views is that it attracts people with non-mainstream crank views.
The LP courts and attracts primarily non-mainstream cranks. Principled libertarians are a fringe group in the party.
That's my impression also.
I have two problems with Oliver.
First, changing your sex is an adult decision and not one for minors to make.
Secondly, it has been rumored that he supports limiting speech on the internet. If this allegation is true, then fuck him.
The first reason not to vote for him is bad enough, but the second reason puts a final nail in his political coffin.
From what I can tell Chase is still doing the "private companies" spiel complete with "free speech" threats of onerous regulation and fines if they don't volunteer to toe the line.
There again, if your confused state of mental health requires you to identify with having ego of another gender, or even an imaginary gender, the person "may" be channelling a spirit of an ancient relative who may guide the person out of this eventually. That is not a belief. I am saying that to give an example that it may factor in to a person's religious development being under test of conflict. I mean, how can one live in any nation today and not be faced with choices here and there that challenge one's assigned (by parents) faith or assigned identity (demanded by state at virtual gunpoint)?
I do not know whether it would be fair to call transgendered persons "troubled," despite obvious conflicts that have been evoked in these forum pages thus far.
There is increasing evidence that child gender transitioning is ideological driven quackery which is scientifically unsupported. Is built on outright falsehoods e.g. puberty blockers are reversible and cause no long term harm.
A child has no ability to meaningfully consent to such radical, life altering treatment for a non-lethal condition. Especially, since the treatment does not really work and condemns the patient to a shortened lifespan and permanent maintenance.
A child has no ability to meaningfully consent
This is a complete red herring. Children have no legal authority to consent to ANYTHING.
and YES there are some crackpot leftists who think that children can consent and/or think that the child's wishes should override the parent's wishes, but they are wrong, and I'm pretty sure everyone around here, including Chase Oliver, rejects that idea.
YES there are some crackpot leftists who think that children can consent and/or think that the child’s wishes should override the parent’s wishes
No, Jeffy, it's not just "crackpots" who take that position. That is the MAINSTREAM view among those who support transgender mutilation. They believe children have a right to keep their "gender" secret from their parents, and that parents who deny "social transitioning", poisoning, and mutilation to their children are unfit parents who should lose custody of their kids.
I disagree with how mainstream those positions are. I have not seen any evidence that suggests that if parents disagree with "social transitioning" that they should lose custody of their kids by the state, is anything but a fringe position that very loud activists yell.
But regardless, it is irrelevant in the current context, because no one around here supports that position.
I have not seen any evidence
Then you need to research the matter further then. You can start here:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Loss+of+custody+of+children+transgender&t=newext&atb=v331-1&ia=web
Jeff has been given the evidence dozens and dozens of times. He is just a liar pushing leftist ideology.
^ This.
Jeff has been given all the evidence he is now demanding, yesterday, and the day before yesterday, and the day before that, ad nauseam.
Sealioning and daily resets have been part of his repertoire for years.
Seems to be the stock position of the NEA, for one, to support children transitioning in secret from their parents, expressly calling out their membership to withhold this "medical information" from parents.
https://www.nea.org/sites/default/files/2020-07/2018_Legal%20Guidance_Transgender%20Student%20Rights.pdf
Students have the right to transition at
school, which means that students have the
right to express their transitioned gender.
GUIDANCE ON TRANSGENDER STUDENTS’ RIGHTS 3
Students have the right to be called by their
preferred names and pronouns.
Students have the right to dress according
to their gender identity so long as they fol
low appropriate dress rules that apply to all
students.
Students have the right not to be com
pelled to provide personal and medical
information to school officials, and school
officials must not disclose personal infor
mation about a transgender student,
including information about the student’s
sex assigned at birth, medical history, gen
der identity, or gender transition without
the student’s consent.
I skimmed through that document and I don't see mention of the relationship between students' rights and parent's rights. I suppose one could read the document uncharitably and assume that when the authors say "students have a right to do X" that they mean "...even if their parents disagree", but I am not sure.
Or, you could just read what it ACTUALLY FUCKING SAYS, moron.
He isnt here for discussion or learning. He is here as an activist. A failing activist.
Jeff doesn't give a shit about what it says because that's not what he's paid for.
In fact it's better for him if he doesn't acknowledge it.
The only ones who are possibly paid shills around here, are you and Jesse.
Reminder: ML is so dishonest he thinks Trump didn't lie once during the debate.
https://reason.com/2024/07/08/ticket-change/?comments=true#comment-10632094
Trump did not lie during the debate. Not once.
I'll say it again Lying Jeffy:
TRUMP DID NOT LIE DURING THE DEBATE.
Here, I'll do it again after that:
Trump did not lie during the debate.
En español:
Trump no mintió durante el debate.
En français:
Trump n’a pas menti pendant le débat.
NOW, LYING JEFFY. WHY DON'T YOU TELL EVERYONE HERE WHAT YOU CLAIMED WAS TRUMP'S "LIE". Let them all know how he "lied".
And if you won't do it, I'll repost your post along with the link.
Hat tip to Google Translate, here's Japanese for good measure:
トランプ氏は討論会中に嘘をつかなかった。
Toranpu-shi wa uronkai-chū ni uso o tsukanakatta.
Don't want to forget the Poles:
Trump nie kłamał podczas debaty.
What if some native Ecuadorian who doesn't know Spanish is reading this? Just to be safe, here it is in Quechua:
Trumpqa manan llullakurqanchu chay debate nisqapi.
Now don’t forget to tell everyone what you claimed was Trump's “lie”.
I’ve stated three lies already:
1. Trump lied about how tariffs worked by claiming that China was going to pay the tariffs.
2. Trump lied when he claimed the border was “the most dangerous place in the world”.
3. Trump lied when he claimed “everybody, without exception. Democrats, Republicans, liberals, conservatives” opposed Roe v. Wade and wanted the abortion issue returned to the states.
These are very obvious lies yet you refuse to admit even one of them. I had no problem admitting when Biden lied. You cannot admit when Trump lies. Because you're just a dishonest shill.
1. Not knowing how tariffs work isn’t lying, it’s ignorance.
2. Hyperbole isn’t lying either (as I agreed with on some of the Biden “lying”). Interesting how you hold Trump to a higher standard than Biden though.
3. Considering Democrats position on it, it’s pretty silly to say they wanted the issue returned to the States (hell, I’d argue they don’t want anything given back to the States).
chemjeff radical individualist:
“I’ve stated three lies already:
1. Trump lied about how tariffs worked by claiming that China was going to pay the tariffs….”
Was it a lie or a difference of opinion. I don’t like Trump, but the Trump-haters and liberals self-righteousness (actually false-righteousness) is dangerous. It makes them way too eager to engage in political prosecution than is healthy in a free country.
If one understands economics, who ultimately pays the tarrif is a function of the relative elasticities of supply and demand. If the buyer needs the goods more than the supplier needs to make the sale, then the buyer will absorb and pay most of the tariff. If the supplier needs the sale more than the buyer needs the goods, then the supplier will absorb most of the tariff. In reality, China would absorb and pay at least some of the tariff. So Trump didn’t “lie”. I’m as sick of the self-(actually false-)righteousness of the Left as I am of the same from the Right.
Just hit Ctrl-F then enter the word "parents".
I don’t have to uncharitable. I just have to read the words.
Page 6.
Privacy for transgender students. Students
must be able to decide when, with whom,
and how much highly personal information
is shared with others. Students have the right
to control the disclosure of highly personal
and private information such as gender iden
tity, transgender status, or sexual orientation.
Administration and faculty should not disclose
a student’s actual or perceived sexual orienta
tion, gender identity, or gender expression to
others, including other students, parents or
guardians, or other school personnel, unless
required to do so by law or unless the stu
dent has agreed, or unless the student makes
requests that require such information to be
disclosed, such as when a student requests to
be called by a certain name or pronoun or to
use a restroom or locker room that conforms
with the student’s gender identity.
P.S. Withholding that information from parents might prevent the parents from engaging in suitable mental health treatment.
You’ve been repeatedly given the evidence. Stop lying,
Children have no legal authority to consent to ANYTHING.
Bullshit. Children's wishes can override parental consent in many cases. No one will pierce your child's ears if they object. There are limits to what parents may consent to on behalf of their children, just as there are limits on what a child may consent to against the wishes of their parents. "Children can't consent to anything" is a ridiculous oversimplification.
Children have no LEGAL authority to consent.
OK. "Children can't LEGALLY consent to anything" is a ridiculous oversimplification. Feel better now?
But that's not true either. It's not an oversimplification, it is literally true. That is why there is such a thing as the age of majority.
You're wrong.
Let me know when a contract signed by a child becomes legally binding.
You clearly never took business law, assuming you ever attended college.
https://www.lawshelf.com/coursewarecontentview/contracts-of-minors
“As with contracts entered into by adults, minors have to fulfill certain prerequisites before a contract is considered enforceable. The primary requirement is having the capacity to contract. Capacity to contract is questionable when dealing with minors because the rationale is that a minor is regarded as not having sufficient capacity to understand and pass upon questions involving contractual rights. Accordingly, a person dealing with a minor does so at his or her peril and subject to the right of the minor to avoid the contract.
Yet, some contracts cannot be voided. Specifically, a minor remains liable for certain contractual obligations:
Taxes
Penalties
Bank regulations
Military
Necessaries”
There are other exceptions as well. You really should educate yourself before you pick a hill to die on.
Well then. There are a few cases when a contract can be enforceable.
Of course this is irrelevant in the current context, because important medical decisions are not on the list of exceptions.
I replied to your comment and corrected you. As usual.
Claims children have legal authority to consent, then gives example of child NOT CONSENTING as evidence that children have authority to consent. See how you did it wrong? The child cannot provide legal consent for ear piercing; it requires the parent's consent. The refusal of someone to pierce a child's ears without BOTH the parent's consent and the child's agreement to that consent doesn't mean the child can legally consent.
Maybe there is no difference. But the second argument appeals to legal definition and its rationales.
I think that you would find that a child can say “no,” which were possibly the best or most legal example of consent, and it be a valid form of consent (that sometimes only third parties can comprehend).
Yes, a child can say 'no', and the parents can legally overrule the child's 'no' in many cases. But the child can not say 'yes' and have that decision be legally binding over the parents' 'no' decision, except in extreme cases of abuse.
And children legally can say yes, even though it be by proxy (in other words, if parents or a legally-designated adult will approve their yes). That yes becomes a legal condition.
So Doherty is a crackpot leftist?
"Oliver is against state action in an area where his opponents insist state action is morally required to prevent the child abuse they believe is inherent in allowing parents, doctors, and MINORS to make decisions about chemical or surgical gender-change interventions without state interference."
Two, you are ignoring that the medical science is going against the notion that child transitioning is an effective treatment for anything while being very harmful otherwise.
There is increasing evidence that child gender transitioning is ideological driven quackery which is scientifically unsupported.
Empirically, that is not true - there certainly are individuals who transitioned and are seemingly content with their decision.
I think the fairest way to put it is that the scientific evidence is showing that parents and doctors should not take this decision lightly and should try to figure out what truly is the best and most prudent course of action for any particular troubled child. Issues surrounding gender confusion are very complicated.
If that were actually done, transgender "care" would virtually cease to exist.
How many mentally ill young people are willing to sacrifice in order to get conclusive evidence that brainwashing, poisoning, and mutilating them is a bad thing?
If that were actually done, transgender “care” would virtually cease to exist.
That’s fine! IMO it probably should be quite rare, because, at least based on my readings, the number of kids for whom this treatment is really their best option, is also quite small. But not banned. Because those kids really do exist.
Because those kids really do exist.
No, they don't. They are either male of female. Only in vanishingly rare cases, which are irrelevant to "transgenderism", is there room for argument about that.
Aaand here we get to the real crux of the matter. You don't even believe they are sick in the first place. What, they have been 'brainwashed' or 'groomed' or something? So you use the excuse of transgenderism to try to force YOUR gender ideology onto them.
Don't tell me what I think, asshole. I DO believe that most of them are mentally ill. They need treatment for their mental illness. Pandering to their delusions by "transitioning" does nothing to address their illness. I have no "gender ideology". I simply recognize the reality of sex.
That is your gender ideology that you want to impose – if you don’t believe that you are either strictly male or strictly female in *gender identity*, you’re “mentally ill” and deserve some sort of conversion therapy. That’s the bullshit that your team is pushing.
Why can’t you let kids discover who they are meant to be, instead of trying to impose upon them who you think they should be?
See my body dysmorphia comment above.
And "gender dysphoria" is a clinical diagnosis of a mental disorder.
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-5-TR)1 provides for one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria with separate specific criteria for children and for adolescents and adults.
The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in adolescents and adults as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and their assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least two of the following:
A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
In order to meet criteria for the diagnosis, the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in children as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be the first criterion):
A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender
As with the diagnostic criteria for adolescents and adults, the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
Everyone’s mentally ill at times, else children would not need legal parents or guardians, period.
Our adult crises consist surely moreso of to what extent one were needing guidance.
A little bit of mental illness is not any more serious than a dog that won't fetch or a taxpayer who won't garnish his own funds for a third party government.
No, I disagree. Mental illness is different than just moodiness or mood swings. It is a clinically diagnosable state that persists for an extended period of time.
Oh, do not overlook that some cases of mental illness do not have to be Sybil-complex to clear up. Otherwise, Rover could be on that chain forever.
I think they have a mental illness, and that performing gender surgery or hormone surgery before trying to treat the mental illness is a bad idea.
I don't think a 14-year-old cis-girl with no mental health issues should be given breast enhancement surgery or cosmetic nose-job, either just because she says she "needs" it. I don't think a medically normal 15-year old boy should be given HGH/testosterone to make him more manly, no matter what he says he "needs".
I think they have a mental illness, and that performing gender surgery or hormone surgery before trying to treat the mental illness is a bad idea.
I agree! And that is actually what the WPATH standard of care recommends! First, psychotherapy. And if things don't get better, THEN think about social transitioning or further with medical options.
So we are all on the same page here.
just because she says she “needs” it.
once again, no one here is arguing that kids should be able to consent to medication or surgery without the parent's permission
But you're the only one arguing that it's OK to brainwash, poison, and mutilate children because their parents say it's OK.
It can be interpreted as a game, that other children do it at school and that it lets them express themselves.
Besides, no teachers do it (am I correct?) So it looks like a game with allowability.
Besides, no one's actually threatening to change your gender by force. But if they were, you should have a virtual support structure already in place to bring up the matter with people willing to discuss it unthreateningly (amiright?)
How many mentally ill young people are willing to sacrifice in order to get conclusive evidence that brainwashing, poisoning, and mutilating them is a bad thing?
That's not how these medical studies work.
It's not? How would they study the long term effects of transgender mutilation in a meaningfully large sample if the mutilation were stopped? It is objectively true that poisoning and sexually mutilating people is harmful. We don't any more "study" to know that, unless ones head is up ones ass.
Norway and Europe have done so. Findings released in the CASS report. Everyone who has studied it has stopped the transitioning.
If one shows up at the doctor’s office and says “I have these overwhelming ideas that I’m in the wrong body, and that I’m supposed to be a double amputee. I need to you remove my legs above the knee.” I hope the tendency is a long regimen of mental health treatments and that “First do no harm” precedent holds.
If one shows up at the doctor’s office and says “I have these overwhelming ideas that I’m in the wrong body, and that I’m supposed to be a woman. I need to you remove my penis, construct me a vagina and breasts and inject me with a hormone cocktail for decades.” the tendency today seems to be “Is Thursday, 2PM good for you?”
If you are complaining about doctors recommending gender transitioning treatments with not enough scrutiny or study of the patient's issues, then you will get no complaint from me. That shouldn't happen and I'd be fine with taking away a doctor's license for making these types of poor medical decisions - JUST LIKE if it happened in any other medical context.
It is gross malpractice and objective harm regardless of the "patient's issues".
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-13293599/amp/canadian-man-body-dysmorphia-psychology-finger-amputation.html
Already happened.
And if it doesn't work out for him, they'll kill him.
If you were intellectually honest, I would suggest you research people who ‘transitioned’ as minors, and regretted it. Many were manipulated into it by leftist kooks like you (often part of the government school system) I’ve heard their first hand accounts.
But you’re a liar. You just memory hole anything contrary to your narrative.
I don’t doubt for a minute that there are ‘detransitioners’ who regretted going through a gender transition. I don’t doubt that many of them felt manipulated by the people who convinced them that it was a good idea at the time.
I also don’t doubt that there are those on the other side, who sincerely believed that they were transgender but their parents refused to permit them to seek treatment, so they wound up committing some self-destructive behavior – perhaps drugs, or self-harm, or running away from home, or worse – which also led to some terrible outcomes.
There is a great deal of sadness around this entire issue and running around calling people ‘bigots’ or ‘child abusers’ doesn’t help things. I think everyone needs to take a step back and just have a little bit of faith that in the overwhelming majority of cases, the parents really do love their children and sincerely want to do what is best for them. And I think what the rest of us can do is to make sure that their decision, whatever it is, is well-grounded in facts and sound knowledge and very clear consent by all parties, and to offer support wherever we can.
“I don’t doubt that many of them felt manipulated by the people who convinced them that it was a good idea at the time.”
They didn’t FEEL manipulated. They WERE manipulated. Through your democrat run government schools.
“I also don’t doubt that there are those on the other side, who sincerely believed that they were transgender but their parents refused to permit them to seek treatment, so they wound up committing some self-destructive behavior – perhaps drugs, or self-harm, or running away from home, or worse – which also led to some terrible outcomes.”
Pumping children up with permanently life altering hormones and performing irreversible invasive surgeries to mutilate their bodies to emulate the opposite sex isn’t ’treatment’. So don’t start with that. No one is buying.
“There is a great deal of sadness around this entire issue and running around calling people ‘bigots’ or ‘child abusers’ doesn’t help things.”
Then don’t abuse children. But you leftists just can’t help yourselves. It’s always about getting at the kids. So you can expect to be aggressively dealt with. This isn’t academic.
Did you see how when Jeff is clearly losing an argument he starts fake empathy and appeals to emotion to defend his views?
I replied to your comment and corrected you. As usual.yes, I’ve noticed that. The left, which includes Jeffy. Likes to justify horrific and insane policies with emotional appeals that some extreme outcome might result. Like school employees hiding important information about a student because the parents might be abusive.
Lop off that arm!
To underscore Jeff — not saying that Jeff agrees with the author or not — I found this article by the Associated Press that may clear up the political significance of transitioning (in terms of percentages and median outcomes):
https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b
This article addresses what persons in fact do, based upon samples taken from over a score of “studies,” who have transitioned or detransitioned.
"A child has no ability to meaningfully consent to such radical, life altering treatment for a non-lethal condition."
Being a parent sometimes means having to make many decisions for your children. Some of these decisions must be made within times windows of the child development. Notable are cochlear implants for baby born with deafness or bone lengthening techniques for dwarfish. Neither deafness or shortness are lethal and yet we allow parents to make these decisions for children. Slowing puberty and the onset of secondary sex characteristic is serious and not without consequences. Parents need to consider if this treatment should be used, but it should be the parent's decision and not the state.
Very well said!
There's legal inability to consent, and then there's actual capacity for informed consent. IMO, except for people whose ovaries or testicles and other organs were already defective, no one under 25 can give informed consent to surgery that mutilates their sex organs and renders them non-functional, then replaces them with organs formed by plastic surgery that may or may not function for orgasms, but certainly will be nonfunctional for reproduction, and are unlikely to maintain the proper hormonal balance, which is required not only for reproduction but also for good health. In that respect, taking a handful of pills a day is not a good substitute for the natural organ that secreted the hormone as needed.
One cannot understand what one is giving up until one has passed through puberty, experienced life as one's genetic gender, and experienced life enough to have an adult opinion on whether one may ever want children.
The counselors or doctors pushing sex changes will tell you that they are preventing suicides by kids who are driven to desperation by their delusions. They don't discuss the frequent suicides by those that have undergone a sex change and later realized they made an irreversible mistake.
Is it really libertarian to let minors cut off body parts and chemically deform their bodies?
It's one thing for adults to make a conscious choice, but children are idiots and easy swayed by fads
Maybe it wouldn't be libertarian to prohibit such self-destruction legally, but at least it should be considered medically unethical even for adults.
Ask Jeffry Dahmer. He seems to had started this very sort of movement. Maybe it was something about his neighborhood, growing up. Or maybe it was his parents conflicting.
with the affection for Kennedy the most telling sign of this attitude.
Wait, affection for Kennedy Jr. or affection for Kennedy?
That letter states outright that "ineligible votes did not explicitly enough [sic] to change the outcome of the election for the presidential nomination"
So, no widespread voter fraud?
"McArdle has made it clear her goal for the L.P. this year is to ensure that Trump wins the presidency."
That is why I remain little "l" libertarian.
She has met Donald Trump on his own terms because she wants to win. Well, more goes on in libertarian discourse than anything the Mises institute documents during a given term.
Is there an Oliver campaign? Nearly two months in, and I, a lifetime member of the LP, have not received one solicitation from the Oliver campaign. [Did get one yesterday from Ter Maat's v.p. campaign.]
The death of LP News (print or electronic version) has severely impaired a member's ability to know what (if anything) is being accomplished by the LP around the country.
Focus is in blue states.
Two things are being accomplished by the LP: Fuck and All.
Biden just introduced the president of Ukraine as a man with as much "courage as he has determination", President Putin.
Sure, Krugman, sure Yglesias, sharp as a tack.
Just bake the cake!
Sarcasmic told me he's gay. I didn't believe it, so I checked it out. NPR did some reporting on Chase.
But it doesn't matter. But you need to know, he's gay. It would behoove us to nominate a gay man. But not only because he's gay, but it's very important. It would be better if he was gay, even though the gay part is irrelevant. We're like the Beatles, but now we need Yoko.
Oliver: I'm not just the gay candidate, but I am gay. Here's my rainbow COVID mask.
Us: Ok, but on a scale from 1 to 10, where do you place your libertarianism?
Oliver: Liberace.
Who exactly are the people making a big deal about his sexual identity? I don't think it's the Chase Oliver crowd.
He tells people he's gay. That's great. Has he ever said "you should vote for me because I'm gay"?
It's the McArdle/Mises crowd who are the ones making a huge fucking deal about Pride flags and rainbow masks. Is there even a photo of Chase wearing a rainbow mask?
He heavily advertises his sexuality via various imagery including his attire. Nice try inventing the overly specific strawman of it being about ‘rainbow masks’. When probably no one said that but you. Which is another one of your disingenuous tactics.
Face it Jeffy, we all know your MO here. Maybe you should move on to greener pastures where everyone isn’t already aware of that, and what you’re about. You’re pretty much done here. Unless your soul agenda is to be an impotent troll.
He heavily advertises his sexuality via various imagery including his attire.
Oh I see. He's "too flamboyant".
Gay is not a one-size-fits-all identifier. It is not such a narrow descriptor that it dictates a person's soul. And this has been my way to assure myself that a number of men end up in the company usually of other men to such extent that they may know very little of a women's era continuity, which may or may not exist but can certainly be dotted and connected by using an historic and literate method.
Identity may be a funny thing, in other words.
Are you openly gay politically in terms of knowing where predominant politics has been screwing the voter? I mean, gay can say a bunch without saying very much in the specific sense ...
So the Mises Caucus is actively turning the LP into shit. Obviously not a surprise. Not much of a brand being destroyed either.
Why can't they just be DNC lite like you want!!
Enjoy the shit
I’m enjoying watching your beloved democrat party implode in real time.
No. The Kochites and you Democrat concern trolls are what have actively turned the LP into shit.
The Mises crew are bog-standard libertarians from 25 years ago.
*Turning it* into shit? Was it not shit before?
Children should have a choice of consent.
What is the legal age of consent for children who could get bodily alterations without their knowledge?
What do persons regret whom did not have the same opportunity as children to protest?
Why do most medical professions today not utilize an oath to "do no harm" in fact?
I personally think that unusual anatomy should not be given an assumptive function by people who do not have it to call their own.
And then there were cases where something must be done.
With a little bit of foresight, we could be reading of a book that explains what the issues have been, to date, and what options parents or guardians really do have in fact to consider working with.
I personally think that unusual anatomy should not be given an assumptive function
Virtually all "transgender" people have normal sexual anatomy. Correcting genital deformities is not what transgenderism is about.
Transgender and unisex surely are not incompatible modes of accommodation.
What's that supposed to mean?
It means that unixex toilets pre-exist in some places, designated or not, and that transgenders could fit into them without state intervention.
"What is the legal age of consent for children who could get bodily alterations without their knowledge?"
Twenty-one.
And it should be the same for entering the military, tattoos and voting.
Drinking should be whatever with parental supervision though.
“What is the legal age of consent for children who could get bodily alterations without their knowledge?”
What kind of modifications are we going to perpetrate upon them without their knowledge?
Children don't get to choose their own bedtime or what’s for dinner. You think they should be able to give informed consent and life changing elective surgery?
No. Do you think the government should tell parents what time their kids need to be in bed and what to feed them this Tuesday?
Good to see that the pro-grooming and child mutilation wing of the Libertarian party has such honest actors as Brian here.
For Libertarian candidate I nominate "nobody". What would be more conducive to freedom than an empty office, and thus no exercise of power?
So in her video, McArdle speaks about how people need to have "moral courage" to stand up for what's right even when it's unpopular. And I agree, that is important.
What is also important, however, is humility. We have to be humble enough to know that we don't always know when we are right. We have to be humble enough to know that what we think is right for ourselves and our situations, may not be right for others and their situations. Because in most cases, we simply don't know what is correct for other people, because we don't live their lives.
That is the essence of Hayek's argument in his article entitled "The Use of Knowledge in Society" (aka "the knowledge problem"). Central planning always fails because central planners cannot possibly have enough knowledge about the detailed workings of the economy to plan it as well as the individual actions of free people in a free market. We should take this result to heart and be humble enough to recognize that if central planners cannot direct an economy, we certainly cannot direct the lives of other people either.
I would say that this humility argument is one of the better non-ideological arguments in favor of libertarianism. It is simply the idea that the state should get out of your way and let you discover who you were meant to be, without a million picayune rules and regulations trying to force you this way and that. And it should be the same generally with all of us. We should get out of each other's way and let each of us discover who we each are meant to be without anyone trying to dictate some 'solution' upon all.
Well, the state basically is not in the way of those who know their rights. And when the state were in one’s way despite knowing one’s rights, it seems that this fact may serve as basis for what course may be best to improve the situation of law.
Perhaps the better inquiry of this coming election showcase should reserve focus on whom President Biden or President Trump would victimize more. Perhaps some people do not realize that they are being victimized in ways that even other persons can see and make clear by well-presented constitutional argument?
Oh, I think the state gets in the way of everybody's rights, even including people who are aware of their rights.
And when the state were in one’s way despite knowing one’s rights, it seems that this fact may serve as basis for what course may be best to improve the situation of law.
Absolutely agree. When the state flagrantly violates people's rights and it is plain for all to see, that is an easy place to start with reforms.
Perhaps the better inquiry of this coming election showcase should reserve focus on whom President Biden or President Trump would victimize more.
I don't think it is a bad idea, but I have no idea how one would even begin to quantify such a thing.
“moral courage” to stand up for what’s right even when it’s unpopular. And I agree, that is important.
You stand for any evil that is socially popular with the haute bourgeoisie.
You stand for pornography in schools, excusing child rape, and maiming children’s genitalia. You stand for censoring political speech, and imprisoning political opponents.
You have zero right to invoke morality, monster.
Around here, I'm one of a few around here with the moral courage to stand up for what is right against the right-wing assholes like yourself who push authoritarian bullshit.
I stand up for transgender youth who are really suffering. I stand up for the rights of immigrants whom you all treat like garbage and vermin. I stand up for the rights of people accused of horrible crimes but are nevertheless abused by the system. I stand up for the rights of property owners to make unpopular decisions with their own property as they are entitled to do. You all go for the cheap and easy moralizing and moral panicking and demagoguery.
Every time you call me a monster, it is an example of your gaslighting and dehumanization tactics because you know you cannot defeat my arguments on their own merits. The only way you can 'win' is by lying about them and calling me names.
“right-wing assholes like yourself”
Fantastic. The last time I asked for your definition of “right-wing” you wouldn’t give it and then you ran away.
Why don’t you tell everyone here what makes me “right-wing”, Jeffy?
I posited last time that “left” and “right” were meaningless smear words, which is why I don’t use them, but you obviously do. So explain.
“stand up for transgender youth who are really suffering”
You care for those kids like a pedophile cares about children, you exploitive fuck.
You don’t want to see them actually helped, to be cured of their dysphoria, to be able to accept their body and who they are biologically.
No, you want to gaslight them into thinking that poisonous, development-suppressing chemotherapy drugs, a lifetime of steroids and dangerous levels of hormone injections are the answer.
You want to cut off their balls, and maim their penis, chop off their tits and gouge out their uterus, make a phony penis out of leg tissue that will never work, make a phony vagina that will never heal and will ooze pus, and be constantly infected for the rest of their lives.
That’s your “support”, you evil, evil fuck.
I stand up for the rights of immigrants whom you all treat like garbage and vermin.
You don’t “stand” for immigrants. My mother is an immigrant from France, as is my sister in-law from the Dominican, my other brother and sister are immigrants to the US.
You don’t give a fuck about them. You’re talking about illegals, lawbreakers who cheated the system, unlike my family members. And the only reason you “care” about illegals is because they’re cheap slave labour for your paymasters, as well as a potential replacement voting pool for them, as their statements against the bill on non-citizen voting proved.
I stand up for the rights of people accused of horrible crimes but are nevertheless abused by the system.
They were caught gang raping the child on multiple videos, monster. They filmed the rape with their own phones. That’s what you're standing for, monster.
I stand up for the rights of property owners to make unpopular decisions with their own property as they are entitled to do.
This is your mealy mouthed way of portraying the demands by the FBI and the administration to censor doctors and researchers who contradicted the administration’s narrative. You don’t support the “property owners”. You supported the government’s “right” to illegally pressure social media to censor, monster.
And Jeffy runs away again.
You stand for:
Child genital mutilations
Illegal immigrant rapists
Bears in trunks
But mostly Bears in Trunks.
Love the bears in trunks never dying. Too bad mike left. We don’t talk about GMO turduken nearly enough.
Or HO2
we don’t always know when we are right.
But much of the time, we do.
So the national LP should revoke the accreditation of any state party that doesn't run the LP candidate chosen at the party's national convention. Every state LP had the opportunity to send delegates to the national convention.
"Be Ungovernable" turns out to be a poor choice of party slogan after all.
To be realistic, imagine a card upon which has been deposited glue. Its purpose serves to collect pests. None of these pests are required to step upon the card, but those who do can no longer walk around ever again. The glue governs them, and there is no hope for them.
That's not the situation of legitimate voters.
To "become ungovernable," failure is not an option. Getting caught in a trap is nothing you want to associate with. You do not have to vote for evil. You can look at the results of trying a change of political clarity, and you can be smart enough to interpret those results and decide if the change was meaningful.
I can at least understand them not putting anyone on the ballot since their delegates voted NOTA.
There is no current firewall between state action and the actions of private companies, schools, etc.
With the massive and far reaching regulatory authority of the Federal Government, businesses will mostly do what they need to stay off the bad side of Government actors who have stuck their noses into these issues time and time again.
If the state uses regulation to coerce private actors to limit the liberties and violate the rights of individuals, that apparently is perfectly fine with Chase Oliver, on the condition that he personally agrees with said actions. But when he doesn't, it's time to "bake the damned cake."
I used to like Angela McArdle's moxie, but she's being a butthole about Chase.
It's going to be the first time I don't vote Libertarian in about 12 years. Thanks, Chase!
Wait. Before you decide...did you know he is gay?
I hadn’t heard.
That should be Biden's new campaign slogan.
Question: How many of the commenters here railing against child mutilation were genitally mutilated as infants (if you're unsure, have a look at your penis to see if the foreskin is still there or was removed) and are OK with it, and/or had the same mutilation done to their children?
I can't see if anyone else's genitals have been mutilated. I can tell that, between the fudging of the term "mutilation" and the presumptuous notion that they're the first person ever in history to have the thought, that at least one person's brain has been mutilated though.
As a libertarian and not a Libertarian (or Libertan), I find the ticket of Chase Oliver and Mike ter Maat to be troubling. While I may agree with many of Chase Oliver's positions, there are some deeply troubling red flags.
Personally I don't give a rip what his sexual preferences are or anyone else's minus criminal activities such as the involvement of minors. I'm not suggesting that Chase Oliver is a pedo, just clarifying that children are and should be protected.
I'm concerned of Chase Oliver's support/position on Trans issues when the subject is a child. I don't feel that a parent should be able to decide if their child can take hormone blockers or to have life altering sex change surgeries.
The decision should be the individual who would be having the surgeries or taking the drugs and a child does not have the capacity to make these decisions yet. There are parents who harm their own children because they seek attention, such as Munchausen or social acceptance.
There may be some circumstances where waiting for the child to come of age will cause more harm and in those cases the decision should not be left to the parents alone. There should be medical panel to evaluate before permanent damage is done.
Once a child is of age, it would be their sole decision minus mental impairment and in that case the medical panel should be involved.
Abortion should be restricted based on when the fetus feels pain. When that actually occurs is not my expertise, but my gut instinct is somewhere in the 12-15 week time frame. I don't want a federal law, but 50 state laws experimenting until a consensus naturally evolves over time. It took 40 years for Roe vs Wade to be struck down, so taking 40 years to reach a consensus naturally seems reasonable.
I don't like Chase Oliver using his sexual preferences as a reason why he is qualified to be president. The truth is it simply is a non-issue and does not matter. The only issue is that he makes his sexuality an issue and most people frankly don't care.
This is the same with race baiting we see. At what percentage is a person one race versus another? Is a person with one black and one parent black or white? Frankly looking at my DNA, I'm not sure whet the %^&* I am because I contain DNA from most of the continents. If one drop is the rule then I'm all of the above. I suppose that I should pay reparations to myself.
I'm not comfortable with Mike ter Maat, stemming with how he became the VP which brings up his previous careers as a cop and government official. I can't shake the notion that he wants this too much, that he could be a plant.
This is going to be a difficult decision between RFK jr and Chase Oliver (even though neither will end up winning).
The only thing I know for sure is that inviting Trump, RFK Jr and Biden (even though he didn't show up and would have been a disaster for sure) was a stroke of genius. There was more media coverage of the Libertarian party as a result that the last few presidential campaigns combined.
Looks like a whole lotta Libertarians are shocked, SHOCKED! to find out there are parts of libertarian philosophy that do not involve Hayek or Mises, but do involve personal, very personal, liberties.
They have always been there, suck it up and deal.
Maybe we should cold-shoulder the Republicans out of the party before they destroy it like to commies did the Dems.
Is 5 years an appropriate sentence for someone who rapes a 13-year-old girl (apparently more than once), trafficked in child-porn, and assaulted an officer? Seems light to me. Personally, well, I hope his fellow prisoners treat him accordingly.
https://cbs12.com/news/nation-world/illegal-immigrant-who-raped-13-year-old-girl-handed-5-year-prison-sentence-a-honduran-man-who-illegally-entered-the-us-and-raped-a-13-year-old-girl-in-virginia-has-received-a-five-year-federal-prison-sentence-according-to-court-documents
An illegal alien who raped a 13-year-old girl in Virginia was given a five-year prison sentence, according to a report from KFOX14.
According to his plea documents, Jhoan Esau Lemus-Ramos raped a 13-year-old girl in Herndon, Va. in 2022, just a year after crossing into the U.S. illegally. After the assault, Lemus-Ramos asked the girl more than once to send him nude photos of herself, which he later used to threaten her and force her to have sex, according to the documents.
Lemus-Ramos also punched an ICE officer in the eye, leaving him bloody as he tried to carry out his arrest in Springfield, Va., according to the agency.
Seems like someone just shot Trump.
CNN:
JUST IN: Former President Donald Trump was rushed off stage after loud bangs were heard and he fell to the ground at the start of a rally in Butler, Pennsylvania, Saturday night.
The Secret Service says Trump is safe and under protective measures. A spokesperson said Trump is “fine” and referred to the incident as a “heinous act,” but details on what exactly happened remain sparse.
Trump was swarmed by agents on stage after the bangs were heard. Blood could be seen on his face, and he raised a fist to the crowd as he was rushed away.