The Case Against Alec Baldwin Is Not a Slam Dunk
New Mexico law requires quite a high standard for proving criminal negligence.

Two core details in the Alec Baldwin trial are not up for debate. Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins died after she was shot on the set of the movie Rust. Baldwin was the one with the gun.
So his involuntary manslaughter case may sound open and shut. It isn't—but probably not for the reason you think.
There's been a great deal of back-and-forth, for example, around Baldwin's claim that he didn't pull the trigger and that the gun instead malfunctioned. A forensics report disputed that. But prosecutors still face an uphill battle due to the contours of the law itself.
Core to securing an involuntary manslaughter conviction in New Mexico is that the government must prove criminal negligence. On its face, it doesn't sound hard to argue successfully that pointing a gun at someone and (allegedly) shooting it qualifies as, er, negligent.
But "negligence" here doesn't refer to a colloquial understanding of the term. In State v. Skippings (2011), the Supreme Court of New Mexico explained it requires something deeper: that a defendant acted with "willful disregard of the rights or safety of others" and a "subjective knowledge" of the perils posed by that behavior. In practice, that means the jury must unanimously agree beyond a reasonable doubt that Baldwin "actually thought about the possibility that the gun might be loaded," writes UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh, "and proceeded to point it and pull the trigger despite that."
It is not sufficient, in other words, to show that Baldwin acted fecklessly or that he was grossly irresponsible with the firearm. Prosecutors must instead take it a step further and demonstrate that he really believed the gun may have had live rounds, and that he shrugged off that reality and took his chances.
Perhaps prosecutors can prove that. The state alleges the Rust set was chaotic and that Baldwin himself had a pattern of carelessness, which included insisting he pull out the gun quickly for dramatic effect.
But the case isn't the slam dunk it's sometimes been made out to be, particularly when considering the basis of Baldwin's defense: that it is well-established on movie sets that prop guns should not be loaded with live rounds in such circumstances, and Baldwin thus believed it was empty. "On a movie set, you're allowed to pull the trigger, so even if, even if he intentionally pulled the trigger…that doesn't make him guilty of homicide," Alex Spiro, one of his defense attorneys, told the jury. "He did not know, or have any reason to know, that gun was loaded with a live bullet."
That doesn't mean Baldwin is blameless. This is complicated, I wrote last year, by the inconvenient fact that Baldwin is a polarizing figure, to put it mildly. Many were likely delighted to see him under scrutiny after listening for years to his political flamethrowing and hearing about his reputation for treating people poorly in inexcusable ways. I myself am not a fan of a lot of his alleged behavior. But there is a distinction, rightfully so, between being guilty in the eyes of the public and being guilty in the eyes of the law. And even those with unpalatable track records are entitled to fairness under the law.
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And even those with unpalatable track records are entitled to fairness under the law.
Indeed. And because of that, I wish him the best… i.e. the exact same treatment Trump got.
No one here seems to know anything about New Mexico law, and negligence.
New Mexico, like all the other states, requires that dangerous objects, like explosives, chemicals, and firearms be handled with proper care and circumspection.
The mere fact that Alec Baldwin knew it was a real gun and pointed it at another human being is not handling a dangerous object with due care and circumspection.
Loaded, unloaded, malfunctioning, or working perfectly, do not matter at all in this situation.
Handling a dangerous object without due care,resulting in the death of another, makes Alec Baldwin, guilty of manslaughter.
But I'm told he is an exception, because actor.
Correction: Democratic actor (though I know that is largely redundant).
Yeah and you’d think that Baldwin, a known anti-gun guy would be extra-extra careful around guns, “props” or not.
Except, what does extra careful mean when the director says, point the gun here and shoot?
Well, see below.
Nobody told him to point or to shoot. And "extra careful" means following the basic rules of gun safety, at a minimum. He broke three out of four, any one of which would have saved the woman's life. If you're not familiar with basic safe handling rules then you have no business picking up a gun under any circumstances. Even people who know nothing else about firearms know they're potentially dangerous.
Except being a complete moron isn't sufficient. The fact that you shouldn't have any live rounds on set at all may be a sufficient defense. That's the entire point of the article.
The counterpoint would be that he brought those live rounds himself for target practice.
Or at least, he knew there might be a live round, since there had been previous instances where a live round had been fired on the set. The first one would have been a hard stop for anyone who cared about safety on the set. As a producer, Baldwin should have halted shooting until they found out how that round got on the set, made sure that would never happen again, and inspected every round. As an actor with all the power of the movie’s star, he should refused to act or rehearse until this was done.
But no, he kept on performing, continued to handle functional guns without personally checking the load, and (at a minimum) pointed a gun at another person knowing that guns had been found loaded with live rounds previously.
Note: In a safely-managed action movie, camera angles are arranged so that when a gun appears to be pointed at another person, it isn’t. The one time that’s not possible is when they want to film it looking down the barrel, and that’s what Baldwin was doing when he killed the cameraperson- but in this day, is there any necessity to have a person behind that camera? (Let alone two people, which was the case here!) Can’t it be operated from the side or remotely?
But these weren’t his first deliberate safety violations. He agreed with the other producers to keep the armorer off the set. This is the person supposed to ensure a gun was in safe and proper condition for the scene in the script and hand it to the actor just before the action starts – but they decided instead to have her prep the guns for the day, leave them in an unlocked cabinet, and leave. The guns might be mixed up. They could be tampered with. They could be taken out at lunchtime and reloaded with live rounds for some target shooting – and apparently they were! (That would be pretty tempting with this assemblage of realistic replicas of cowboy-era weapons, but this creates an obvious hazard.) Even if Baldwin never did that or knew about it, he permitted it by sending the armorer home after just two hours.
What are you talking about? Baldwin knows how to handle a gun!
Ohhh Alec... I think if a gun is involved it's Steven Baldwin. We'll sucks to be the libtards on that project
Not really. Being more enlightened than those dumb gun nuts is too often treated as a license for reckless behavior. People who actually know something about guns are more likely to treat them with the respect they deserve. (Except for a terminally stupid few, but with luck they'll autodarwinate before they hurt someone else.)
I've been the armorer for four full length feature independent films shot in New Mexico. We pointed real guns at each other. And nobody died, because A.) I am not a moron, and B.) before every single fucking take, myself, the actor holding the gun, and the actors having guns pointed at them inspected every piece of this puzzle to make sure we weren't going to harm anyone.
The armorer for Rust was a moron. But Alec Baldwin should have cared enough himself to have insisted on verifying that the firearm was in a safe condition to point at another human being. That he didn't would make him criminally negligent in my eyes. Possibly not legally so, but he's still an asshole who killed someone.
This^
There's tons of fucked up shit around the handling of the firearm, and he certainly had no reason to be pointing it at anyone at the time he shot her.
But people saying that the mere act of pointing a firearm at someone on a movie set constitutes recklessness because it 'violates teh four principles11!!1' . . .
This is really interesting, thanks for providing your expertise.
I found that extremely interesting and Prof Volokh's comment astounding. It doesn't matter if the gun is loaded or you knew it was or wasn't. Pointing a firearm at anyone is reckless and dangerous.
First Two Rules of Gun Safety
1) Always keep firearms pointed in a safe direction. Never point your gun at anything you do not intend to shoot.
2) Treat all guns as though they are loaded.
All responsible gun owners know this. Everyone handling a firearm should know this and if they don't they should be instructed before handing them a firearm. The armorer now in jail failed in her job but Baldwin also failed and a woman is dead.
When you draw your gun from a holster you let it point at tons of stuff you don't intend to shoot. Leave a gun in a cabinet and at some point it will be pointing at someone you don't intend to shoot.
The rules of gun safety are guidelines that you're supposed to use sense in applying.
And these people were making a movie. Have you not seen movies where they point guns at people? Even pull the trigger? Are all those productions guilty of reckless disregard?
If they don't take special precautions? Yes. Yes they are.
If this had been a scripted shooting, your argument would have been more convincing.
If Baldwin hadn't brought the ammunition on set himself for target practice, I would be a lot more lenient.
However, the fact that he personally undermined the safety procedures removes most of these defenses.
Did Baldwin bring ammunition on set for his own target shooting? I had not heard that.
Brother, people point real guns at each other all the time on movie sets. They even pull the trigger. Because they're making a movie.
There's tons of shit that was done wrong on that production - but you can't say that simply pointing a gun at someone on a movie set was reckless.
His dad was a retired marine and the coach of Alec's high school rifle team. Alec was trained in gun safety. He has a higher responsibility than some random emo actor who never played with a popgun.
re: "The mere fact that Alec Baldwin knew it was a real gun"
You are assuming facts not yet in evidence. According to his defense attorneys, he believed it was a prop gun. That is, a gun which was not be loaded and for which established procedures ensured that it would not be loaded.
While I believe he was morally wrong and failed to live up to any reasonable standards of firearm safety, you cannot simply assume away the entirety of the legal case.
And he should have checked that.
Trump has been treated far. far better than 99.9999999% of those charged with crimes. Including Baldwin.
What about people charged with non crimes?
Lol. Idiot.
Has Baldwin voluntarily made any kind of restitution to this woman’s family?
He was not only the guy who pulled the trigger, but also as a producer on the film, he was responsible for the haphazard environment on the set that enabled this death.
Yes, insofar as he was a party to a lawsuit which was settled out of court, although you might not consider this to be entirely voluntary. https://abcnews.go.com/US/judge-approves-settlement-rust-shooting-lawsuit-halyna-hutchins/story?id=99788957
Although maybe not, since apparently he's been late in making the payments... https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/06/28/alec-baldwin-late-on-paying-settlement-to-cinematographers-husband-and-son/
Thanks for the link.
See my edit just now.
Right, I get it. Again, my view is Baldwin is liable for this, in both capacities as the guy who shot her, and as one of the guys in charge of the film set.
And the fact that he's late in making the payments, "OJ Simpson'ing" it; isn't surprising considering Baldwin's character.
My view is that he should be doing everything he can to make it right. Financial restitution should be part of that, and the fact that he’s late in making payments is pretty shitty. I’m not convinced he should be going to jail for a tragic accident, since forcing him to spend years in prison won’t help anyone. So I’m happy the charges were dismissed (with prejudice) just now.
I wouldn't think he would entirely as there is a criminal case going on and any settlement might be construed as admission of guilt. I'm sure his lawyers stepped in and stopped him if he brought it up.
I don't care if he pulled the trigger or not. Either way he did what he was supposed to do according to the people who were responsible to maintain safety. So say otherwise is to make it illegal to act in or rehearse a play or other performance.
As a producer of the film, isn't he responsible for safety?
Not in detail, no. No more than the GM of GM is criminally responsible for an injury on the assembly line.
What if the GM of GM takes the controls of a machine, and ends up directly causing the injury on the line?
That would be the equivalent of an actor "checking" a prop and thereby causing an injury.
This doesn't make sense.
Then you're not very bright.
Your comment is the opposite of reality.
Baldwin caused an injury (and a death) by NOT checking the gun. If he had checked it, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
And I've explained that an actor should never tamper with a prop.
Nobody could get hurt with a prop gun no matter what he did with it.
If the GM took control of a machine and thereby injured someone, that'd be a violation of their safety protocol, and would at least be liable for damages, and possibly criminally liable depending on the state's standards for criminal negligence and the details of the case. And as stated downthread, it would be the equivalent of an actor's causing injury by deviating from protocol and checking a prop. And, yes, a prop gun can injure someone, since a prop is just anything used in production of the show; the word "prop" (property) is not supposed to imply anything about its being inert, though that's a common misconception about what's meant by the word. A prop gun can be functional in all respects.
Considering the fact that Hollywood has been doing this for over a century I've always wondered why they can't build an authentic looking gun that won't accept live ammunition.
Uhm...
I'm gonna guess: half-assery, over-regard for realism, laziness, and/or cheap. Just for starters.
I mean, c'mon, Airsoft manufacturers do so well that they require special orange or red muzzle-tips to distinguish them as fake.
They can. I've handled them. They don't exist for every model. But... fuck. This was completely preventable even without that. As I've said, I have done it. Four times. And I'm hardly a "pro" beyond the fact that I've done it for money. I'm just not an idiot, and I made sure everyone understood the stakes.
They threw the rookie armorer , Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, under the bus and said she was responsible. However, the original guy they hired that was much more seasoned as an armorer … walked off the project at an early stage due to the atrocious shortcuts and corner cutting he witnessed.
https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime/veteran-armorer-turned-down-rust-job/
My personal opinion (wholesale made up of flimsy hearsay) is that Hannah put away the guns , empty , in the safe for the night. Some jackasses on the set (high up, because they had keys) took some guns and their own live ammo and went shootin’ and drinkin’ that night as evidenced by shot up beer cans on a fence, and didn’t empty the guns before putting them back in the safe. The next day they used guns they thought were safe, but weren’t. Still sloppy, but less her fault than they made out. The official police investigation was not definitive that it was her, but all the bigwig lawyers that represent important people are inferring it was her fault.
Thanks for providing the extra context about the prior armorer.
The armorer still needs to check the guns each day before giving them to the actors. Still her fault.
Having done that job, I agree.
They can't get their story straight. First Baldwin and later Hannah herself said that she gave the gun to the asst director , David Halls, and it was Halls who handed Baldwin the gun after she left the scene for something else. Later (after a plea deal for lowered sentence) Halls testified that it was Hannah who directly gave Baldwin the gun. Baldwin's own testimony contradicts Halls.
It still seems like they are scapegoating the armorer to me. Hannah gave a statement to police during the investigation, but did not testify in her own trial. Suspicious , but her legal right. It just seems to me that Baldwin and his producer buddies are getting out of danger at the expense of the armorer.
Wild conjecture and half-baked opinions, so ... "it doesn't buy pancakes " as my grandma used to say.
A gun is only unloaded if I've cleared it myself, and that resets if it's out of my custody at any point. Even a locked case counts as out of my custody if anyone else has a key. So I agree she's not exactly blameless.
Yes, she is at fault. As stated her friggen job was to maintain firearms and check them before handing them out or letting someone, like Baldwin, check one out to practice with. Her second biggest job was instructing others in gun safety and refuse to hand one to any person who acted in an unsafe manner with one requiring that person to hand it back for more training if they refused to be safe. That was her JOB.
I don't believe that is the case. It is not uncommon for live ammo to be present on a set because actors practice with them at a range before or after shooting. The problem is that the live ammo is supposed to be kept separate from the blanks and the only person that has access is the armorer and he/she is responsible for handing it out and putting the remaining back away under lock and key. I read in a few places when this happened that there was live ammo on the set and one of the reasons the young lady went to jail is that she was not in full control of it like she should have been.
There is absolutely no reason for an actor to practice with the prop guns with live ammo. You're not actually shooting anyone here, you're making a movie. It literally doesn't matter if you can hit the broad side of a barn or not.
And you don't need live ammo to practice gun handling and working the controls.
He was negligent in his failure to check the gun. Then again he’s an actor. He isn’t expected to know the ins and outs of firearms. He’s there to pretend.
My belief is that someone on the set took the revolvers and did some plinking. They they put the gun down with live ammo in it.
Then blammo, someone died.
Good luck proving it.
So point the fingers at the actor. The fact that he doesn’t support Trump makes him that much more guilty.
Who, not what.
No, as an actor he would've been forbidden to do anything with the gun on the set that could've changed how it was set up as it was delivered to him and declared safe to use. Just about anything he could've done to "check the gun" would've been a violation of their safety rules. This is occupational safety, not some matter regarding how you treat your own guns on your own time.
he would’ve been forbidden to do anything with the gun on the set that could’ve changed how it was set up as it was delivered to him and declared safe to use
Seems safe and unsafe at the same time.
I don’t trust “experts” because in my experience they are idiots.
Be like hiring JesseAz or Mother’s Lament to wash dishes. They would talk all day long about stupid shit but nothing would get done.
Never talks about people, just ideas!
“Be like hiring JesseAz or Mother’s Lament to wash dishes.”
Hiring you and jeff to wash dishes OTOH would necessitate disposal and replacement of every dish that either of you touched. Probably best to burn down the whole kitchen just to be safe.
Ironically sarc was fired from wsshing dishes and ended up homeless.
You literally trust government experts and demand we put our trust into them. Lol. From covid, to censorship, to elections.
"he would’ve been forbidden to do anything with the gun on the set that could’ve changed how it was set up"
"Just about anything he could’ve done to “check the gun” would’ve been a violation"
Where are you getting this information?
sarcassmic
People who are experienced with the health and safety rules in movie production and have written about this on Quora, plus my own experience with occupational health and safety as an officer of the safety committee. Plus, it's common sense that people would understand in such contexts as commercial aircraft flying and maintenance; it's only their personal familiarity with firearms in non-commercial contexts that misleads them into thinking the handler should directly check the firearm even in a commercial setting.
I certainly would not want the muppets touching anything. Actors are morons.
If I were the armorer and an actor wanted to be assured the firearm was safe, *I* would open it up myself and show them - they don't do nuffin' themselves.
To Roberta,
your statement is completely wrong.
The screen actors guild requires that all members sign a contract.
This contract clearly states that all actors handling a gun are ultimately responsible for checking its safety.
This Responsibility cannot be delegated to the armorer.
SAG rules are exactly opposite of what you describe.
https://variety.com/2024/film/news/sag-aftra-defends-alec-baldwin-rust-shooting-1235887728/
That is a ridiculous post. All firearms are immediately checked by the person who either picks one up or is handed it by someone else. Watch any youtube channel by gun people and if they are handed a firearm the person who has it unloads and checks it then hands it over. The person receiving it even though he just watched it being cleared immediately checks it himself to verify. Baldwin should have checked that handgun first thing when getting it prop or not. If blanks are being used Baldwin should have immediately unloaded the revolver and verified they were blanks and even if he did that, playing around with it in a room full of people was reckless.
This is not YouTube. This is a commercial production.
These are guns used in a movie set, by people who know nothing about guns mate, not guntubers filming themselves at the range.
Also, none of what you say about checking the gun happens on Youtube.
Baldwin wouldn't know what a blank looked like even if it spit in his eye.
What a shocker, Trump isn’t relevant, yet you brought him up. Again.
“He isn’t expected to know the ins and outs of firearms. He’s there to pretend.”
If Baldwin is going to handle them (as he has done on other films), then he has some responsibility to learn the basics, at least.
Not arguing for throwing the book at Baldwin (the fact that he’s an idiot isn’t relevant), but he owes something to Hutchins’ family. The armorer on the set should as well; she probably bears more direct responsibility than baldwin.
I disagree here. No more than someone playing the role of a hacker needs to learn programming. He's an actor. He walks to his mark, says his line, does what he's told.
And you're asking for every actor to have gone through a certified training in order for a production to ensure the actors are 'safe'. Which is unfeasible. Its far better to have an armorer - who knows what TF she's doing - to have control of this and someone who can slap a motherfucker who's fucking up down.
Someone playing the role of a hacker isn’t going to accidently hack someone’s insulin pump or pacemaker or an electronic detonator for the pyrotechnics special effects.
There’s a massive difference between the risk of randomly typing on a keyboard and the risk of waving around a loaded firearm. The greater the risk, the greater the need for user training, even if it is just a basic 15 minute orientation.
Everyone who picks up a gun should have an understanding of guns. Even on a set, an actor should know enough to tell when a gun is actually loaded with bullets or not.
You simply cannot be given a real gun and assume it's not loaded. That's like the #1
Beyond that, there was literally no reason to aim at the woman he killed. Again, you never ever point a gun at someone unless you want to shoot it. There might ben exceptions when filming a movie, you have to point it at another actor. But someone off screen?
Nonsense. An actor on a set should not tamper with any prop. Doing so makes everyone less safe. They must rely on the expertise of those responsible for the props.
Checking if a gun is loaded is not "tampering" with it.
Tampering with what is supposed to be a non functional gun won’t make it functional.
Yep. Vernon apparently thinks rendering a gun safe = tampering.
It is the responsibility of the prop technician to insure that props are safe. She is already in prison.
It is the responsibility of the producer to ensure a good safe work place on and off the set. This producer did not, as illustrated by the original armorer quitting due to being an unsafe workplace.
It is the responsibility of EVERYONE who handles a gun to handle it properly. This actor did not.
...
Handling it properly means according to instructions. Everything I've seen about this story says he handled it as he was instructed.
The fact that a gun is being used as a prop doesn't absolve Baldwin.
Yes, it does. That's why the prop manager has already been convicted.
The fact that the "prop manager" handed Baldwin a gun doesn't mean she authorized him to point it at a person who isn't even part of the scene.
She also didn't authorize him to pull the trigger, while pointing it at someone, (which Baldwin absurdly claims he didn't even do).
Per Vernon Depner, actors are allowed to point guns at anyone they want, and pull the trigger any time they want, because a “prop manager” authorized it.
Otherwise, we couldn't have movies.
No, violating an established safety protocol for an instrument used in business is tampering with it. When the rules are drawn up, because they involve having a specialist assure the safety of the instrument in advance, and because anyone's subsequent change in its settings other than according to instructions cannot be assumed to make it safer, tampering is forbidden because it might make the instrument less safe. Conceivably in an individual case one could get lucky and make the instrument safer after the expert has left it unsafe, but such luck cannot be presumed, and in fact the opposite is.
A ton of guns used in movies are functional. They have to be in order to use blanks.
Checking if a gun is loaded is not “tampering” with it.
Ordinarily, yes. This happened on a movie set, a place where mock dangerous activities are routinely acted out. In that situation, an actor "checking" a gun would not be staying in his lane. The prop technicians are responsible for the safety of props. The technician responsible has already been prosecuted and sentenced. Case closed.
Case back open. Everyone who claims their argument is "indisputable" or "inarguable" is similarly showing they are arguing emotion, not facts or logic.
Case closed on you inarguably being an indisputable idiot know-it-all.
As stated below, more than one person can be responsible for something.
If more than one person is responsible - no one is.
Actors don't actually point guns at each other in movies or on the stage. When a scene requires the muzzle to be held against another actor it's a dummy weapon.
There are live performances wherein actors use a real, loaded weapon and point it close to each other. This is why the Bullet Catch trick is so dangerous when it's done the most realistic way. Hardly anyone does it that way any more, but that's how you do it.
That is not true at all.
If you've never actually done this job (which I have), you can feel free to cease speculating on the matter. And I know you haven't, because you're wrong.
It absolutely is. You have to open the gun up to see if a round is in the chamber. If so, you need to pull the round out to determine what it is - is it live, is it a dummy, is it a blank?
That's all a recipe for an ND on set.
What a stupid post. Checking a firearm is not tampering, it's called safety and unless Baldwin had an armorers kit under his coat and some Wolf springs in his pocket to immediately customize the firearm what you say is silly.
It's tampering when it's someone else's job to check it and make sure you don't alter it, and you do.
Ok, your level of obtuseness reveals a troll just wanting to argue. Nothing you have said has made any sense including calling firearm safety by checking if a weapon is loaded tampering. That's just moronic.
Baldwin has used guns on other films in the past. He really has no excuse. The fact that some of the basic gun safety rules may be violated (e.g. don't point the gun at anything you're not willing to shoot), means the other rules have to even MORE rigidly followed (e.g. make goddam sure you aren't pointing a gun with live ammo at someone). Why was live ammo even on the fucking set?
There's a great video out there of Will Smith preventing the guy next to him from 'flagging' the people around them with a 'prop gun' on set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZhHxTCGi8c
...
No, absolutely not! A revolver can be made up with an appearance of bullets, and it would require unloading it to distinguish whether that was the case.
No, it can't unless they are dummy rounds without powder or a primer. You reveal a stunning lack of knowledge on the subject.
"... it would require unloading it to distinguish whether that was the case." Exactly. If Baldwin had checked the firearm as he should have and noticed brass in the cylinder he should have immediately cleared the firearm and checked to see if they were live or not and then if he wanted to practice with it turned the inert rounds back in.
...
At this rehearsal, the director had him point it at herself. Are there safer ways to do it? Yes, but this was considered acceptable practice.
You are amazingly broken. Always with adding Trump. Have you been to see an addiction specialist yet?
Fucktard.
This has nothing to with Trump, retard.
I seem to recall that Alec Baldwin has acted in films where he handled a prop weapon. In every one of those productions safety would have been emphasized. They don't point guns at each other, ever. The rule goes back to the gaslit theatrical stage predating motion pictures. When a scene requires actually pointing a prop weapon, say to someone's head or in their mouth etc., it is a dummy usually made of rubber. In the long history of movie and television production there are only a handful of fatal accidents (like 5 or less) because they follow the rule.
No one who can't learn and follow basic rules of gun safety has no business ever picking up a firearm under any circumstances. According to other people on the set, Baldwin goofed around and paid little attention during basic safety lessons. It's also reported that this wasn't the first time he mishandled weapons, just the first time enough things went wrong at once for someone to get shot.
My personal opinion of Baldwin doesn't change the fact that his reckless disregard for basic safety cost a woman her life.
So say otherwise is to make it illegal to act in or rehearse a play or other performance.
I can't figure out why you would make this statement except for a retarded hatred of yourself, the 1A, or both.
Why would you pronounce to the world "I cannot distinguish between a production of (say) The Producers in which no one dies and a production of The Producers that literally kills someone to such a degree that I can't even fathom that anyone else could."
Why would you mentally retard yourself like that? Why would you announce it to the world like that?
Assuming you aren't actually retarded, extreme self-loathing is the only thing that makes sense.
I'm not a huge fan of Baldwin personally. Professionally, he's good but a bit of a typecast hack. I don't think or know if he's guilty. I'm certain he should stand trial and I can abide what the people of NM decide one way or the other. But all of that is completely irrelevant to your "I can't tell the difference between a performance and an action that kills people." retardation. JFC.
You'd be amazed at the fatal accidents that occur, not just in entertainment, but other occupational situations. You think nobody could've been killed making The Producers? Heck, all it might take is a violation of food safety rules! Let alone the explosives.
You’d be amazed
I'm not under the impression that there's any shortage of things you think other people would be amazed by.
This is false. They are always supposed to angle the gun away from the filmed target. This has been standard safety since the guy from The Crow.
Then the director shouldn't've told him to point it there.
Except for the part where the people in charge of safety weren't there and he was acting on his own, but sure.
Well, actually, he didn't.
As there was, at the time of the incident, no reason to have the gun pointed at someone and then pull the trigger. If the monkey had done what the monkey was told to do then there'd have been no death - even with a live round in the chamber.
Or, at least, it would have happened in a scene where you were scheduled to do that and then there'd be no question of personal liability.
No, you can't simply assume away the legal case either. The "people who were responsible to maintain safety" include the armorer (who clearly screwed up), the actor (Baldwin) and the producer (also Baldwin). The prosecution is arguing, correctly in my opinion, that fact that the armorer screwed up does not automatically relieve all the others who were jointly responsible for safety of their obligations.
This does not make it illegal to act in or rehearse a play but it does require you to follow (and on the part of the director, to enforce) certain safety standards.
So if I beat someone to death with a sledgehammer, being unaware that being hit with a sledge hammer might be fatal, I should go scot free?
If you were so mentally deficient that you really couldn't understand that being hit with a hammer can kill someone, then I would vote not guilty by reason of diminished capacity. Of course, your scenario is ridiculous.
People are expected to foresee the foreseeable results of their actions. The result of swinging a sledgehammer at someone is pretty damned foreseeable. The result of pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger is normally also pretty foreseeable. The result of pointing a prop gun at someone on a movie set, except that this gun turned out to be loaded with real bullets even though it was a movie prop... maybe not so foreseeable.
It’s stupidity. Always assume a gun is loaded. Always.
That would make producing films with gunfire impossible.
No it would not. If Baldwin had followed DLAM’s advice, he wouldn’t have pointed it at someone, and he wouldn’t have pulled the trigger while doing so.
Films with guns are produced all the time without killing or even injuring people.
Not sure you understand how camera angles don’t require an actor to ever pull a gun and point it at someone.
Have you ever been to a live stunt show? Where they use blanks? They always angle the shot away from the other actors.
Especially since blanks can still cause injury, if proper precautions aren't taken.
The fact that it was used as a prop in a movie is irrelevant. It was a fully functional firearm. Everyone knew it was a fully functional firearm. No one thought this was a replica or imitation that was physically incapable of discharging rounds. Calling it a prop gun just confuses this point. It was a fully functional firearm.
The person responsible for this tragedy is already in prison. The charges against Baldwin should be dropped. This is a political prosecution.
Thanks for the reminder that the armorer was already prosecuted, which I had forgotten.
Other than that, your comments don’t make sense. Baldwin does bear responsibility, and it's reasonable to prosecute him.
your comments don’t make sense.
This is true for about 60-70% of the larger definition of “comments” for Vernon. The guy is a moron, just not an cravenly evil, drunk, willfully stupid sea lion on most every issue like many of the other regular idiots around here.
mad.casual has degenerated into another Sevo.
Given the thread, I can't tell if you're complimenting me, Sevo, or both.
Seriously, a 10 yr. old could see how a jury should look at the evidence of the guy who pulled the trigger in a woman's shooting death.
The fact that you think it's some sort of exceptional political prosecution is more of a testament to how out of touch you are with the legal system and how justice is otherwise supposed to work than anything.
multiple people can be responsible for something
“The person responsible for this tragedy is already in prison.”
Hey Vernon, what about Baldwin’s claim that he never pulled the trigger; the gun just went off? If this is true, shouldn’t the armorer be absolved?
No.
Why not? If it were true, the woman wasn't killed because of anything the armorer did - the gun malfunctioned.
The armorer allowed live ammunition on the set.
The gun just went off? Has he been reading police reports?
I wonder if that statement is true but dishonest. I had a revolver with a sloppy trigger. Didn't take much to release the hammer without touching the trigger. I forget whether it was double or single action, but either way his claim that he didn't pull the trigger only makes sense if he charged the hammer
You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
But, but, gunz!
Why do they use real guns for films anyway ? You can get killed for realistic looking plastic, you would think that making a metal prop-gun that can't actually fire a real round would be a common sense item by now in the film industry.
Especially considering the anti-gun (for thee, not for me) views of most hollywood people.
They had a metal, non firing replica gun on the set.
This was only a practice run to work out the camera angles.
There was no reason to use the actual functioning gun for this.
that doesn't make him guilty of homicide," Alex Spiro, one of his defense attorneys, told the jury.
JFC. I'm no fan of Baldwin's but, sheesh! With a defense attorney like this, who needs enemies?
It also needs to be said; Baldwin's ridiculous claim that he didn't pull the trigger is really indicative of the kind of guy he is. He should at least own up to what he did.
The idiocy around this is astounding. Worse than the idiocy around Dick Cheney "winging" a judge.
Kinda like the abortion thing. I could see like "He shouldn't be on trial for murder!" or "If he goes to trial he shouldn't get the worst possible sentence!" or he should plead not guilty or whatever but that he shouldn't go to trial and/or be treated as if he did anything wrong... whom besides themselves does anyone think they're serving with their "Alec Baldwin shoots woman to death on set. Conservatives pounce." narrative?
"...Baldwin’s ridiculous claim that he didn’t pull the trigger ..."
Indeed, I suspect many could see themselves when given the opportunity to put their boss in the gunsights and pretend to go bang would possibly do so. The odds of a single totally random shot being fatal to anyone, absent aiming, is quite low; he was aiming.
'the Supreme Court of New Mexico explained it requires something deeper: that a defendant acted with "willful disregard of the rights or safety of others" and a "subjective knowledge" of the perils posed by that behavior. In practice, that means the jury must unanimously agree beyond a reasonable doubt that Baldwin "actually thought about the possibility that the gun might be loaded," writes UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh, "and proceeded to point it and pull the trigger despite that."'
Any person whose job requires handling real, functional firearms has to know risks and proper procedures. And that includes not being sloppy about what the weapon is pointed at and certainly does not allow "fun" pretend shooting at people. Baldwin's excuses are no better than a bunch of teens playing with a weapon, and "somehow" kills one.
Unh unh! Actors don't have to!
/Vernon Depner
This may actually be a 'slam dunk' the other way. I would expect his trial attorneys to request a "mistake of fact" jury instruction, New Mexico Uniform Jury Instruction 14-5120. To quote:
****
NMRA, Crim. UJI 14-5120
UJI 14-5120. IGNORANCE OR MISTAKE OF FACT1
An issue in this case is whether the defendant believed that __________2. The burden is on the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not have an honest and reasonable belief in the existence of those facts at the time of the alleged conduct. If you have a reasonable doubt as to whether the defendant's alleged conduct resulted from a reasonable belief in those facts, you must find the defendant not guilty.
USE NOTE
1. If this instruction is given, add to the essential elements instruction for the offense charged, “The defendant did not [act] [fail to act] under a mistake of fact.”
2. Describe what the defendant claims he or she believed.
****
"Mistake of fact" is a defense to accidental shootings where one of the parties thought that their gun was unloaded (e.g. two buddies getting high and fooling around by 'dry firing' pistols at each other. Or, a cop cleaning a gun.). It is a defense to many criminal charges, of course, civil liability is another thing.
The twist in New Mexico is that your trial attorney has to request it --- the judge has no obligation to include that instruction 'sua sponte,' and if your trial attorney does not request it you are simply toast. NM Appellate courts won't find failure to request the instruction ineffective assistance of counsel -- for unconvincing reasons I won't go into (been there, done that). But I expect his trial attorneys won't make the mistake of simply forgetting to request the instruction. In New Mexico, if a jury believes he honestly thought the gun was unloaded, he should be found innocent.
Finally, a discussion about negligence from a libertarian perspective.
Now, instead of "loaded gun", think "COVID-infected person".
And, instead of "pointing the gun at someone", think "spreading virus particles towards that person".
Negligence?
No.
But bears in trunks? Another matter.
Well what if the COVID-infected person was wearing a mask that didn’t work, but was touted by the country’s leading medical officer as a sensible precaution, and what if that person had been inoculated and boosted with a prophylactic medication that did not stop transmission or infection, but was marketed as a vaccine, which people commonly understand as preventing both infection and transmission?
Who is negligent then?
Did anyone get sick as a result of the contact? If not, no. If yes, blame the virus, the perfect scapegoat.
Well, since the vaccine didn't stop nor prevent infection, and masks didn't work, not even the one-way maskinization theory turned out to be true, I'm not sure what the safety measure you were supposed to take beyond staying home when you got the COVID sniffles.
Seems like the armorer is most at fault. No one should depend on actors to know the basics of gun safety, or to know when they've accidentally been given live ammo.
Nobody should handle a gun without safety first in mind.
Having done this job, I agree with both of these comments.
I agree. You don't need untrained actors second guessing professional armorers. That would not make for greater safety, arguably the opposite. I've met someone recently, ex-stuntman, and it turns out that movie making is a lot more dangerous than we imagine, though it's almost always the stuntman, or as in this case the DP, who suffer the injuries, not the talent.
Keeping one's finger off the trigger and keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction is hardly "second guessing". If he'd followed either of those rules no one would have died.
Those rules don't apply to movie making. That's why they have armorers to ensure safety. It's why movie making is more dangerous than you imagine it to be, and that's why there are often accidents, sometimes fatal ones, in the process.
The armorer isn't blameless here, but neither is Baldwin. Any actor whose role requires them to pick up a gun should know the basic rules of safe handling. (Even those who know nothing else about firearms know they're potentially dangerous.) The actors on this set went through basic safety training, but Baldwin was reportedly horsing around and paying little attention. He was also reportedly handling guns recklessly on several other occasions during the shoot. In the fatal incident he ignored three out of four basic rules of gun safety. (1 always handle guns as if they were loaded, 2 fingers off the trigger until sights are on target, 4 never let the muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy). If he'd followed any one of those the woman would still be alive.
Aside from being the guy who pointed the gun and pulled the trigger, he was also the producer and therefore responsible for everything on set. I'm convinced it was a murder that took advantage of an unstable environment to seed doubt.
On many levels he is blatantly guilty of negligent homicide. That is the absolute base line. I think the conditions for 2nd or 1st degree murder are met, but proving it beyond a reasonable doubt is unlikely to occur
"he is blatantly guilty of negligent homicide. That is the absolute base line. I think the conditions for 2nd or 1st degree murder are met"
He can't be guilty of both negligent homicide AND 1st degree murder for the same act. You haven't thought this through. First degree murder requires intent - he intended to shoot and kill the DP. Negligence means it was an accident he should have prevented.
" but proving it beyond a reasonable doubt is unlikely to occur"
Very unlikely.
Making movies that include armed violence often requires portraying people who are not following the "rules".
Downtown Seattle’s Westlake Center losing another major tenant
Saks OFF 5th is the latest large retailer to pack up and leave the downtown retail core as local foot traffic continues to lag.
Great economy. Bigly awesome. Beat the Trump recession. Tired of winning.
But there is still a lack of Seattle-area residents visiting downtown. In December, about 426,000 people who live within 10 miles of the retail core came downtown, according to the DSA. That’s roughly 360,000 fewer people than in December 2019.
The thing that really blows my mind is in the cities *and* burbs is all the high-rise commercial and mixed residential with ground-level retail *still going up*.
Between work-from-home, COVID, walkable cities initiatives, Amazon/JIT shipping/Warehouse logistics, inflation... the construction model is dying/dead. Like building a mall or strip mall in 2024.
Baldwin repeatedly engaged in reckless behavior, which eventually left a woman dead in an easily prevented accident. If the case against him isn't a slam dunk, then either NM law is ridiculous or the prosecutor brought the wrong charge.
Question for the Baldwin haters - if there are scenes involving him as an actor that use explosives, is he responsible for checking the explosives are safely rigged?
Note: I can't stand Baldwin as a person although I enjoy him on screen, and I generally approve of the piling on when he screws up. I believe this prosecution goes too far.
I have to say that although I've read a number of Reason articles and the comments below I've rarely encountered such a bunch of retards commenting on something they have zero knowledge of but insist on making their ignorance known to everyone. Yes, Roberta and Vernon, I'm looking at both of you as fine examples.
Zero knowledge, huh? Were you ever on a safety committee at a medical device manufacturer? Were you ever someone layng and checking the wiring at a public display of fireworks? Did you ever act on a movie set? I've worn all those hats.
Have you ever been the armorer? Because if not, I still trump your knowledge here.
I have not been a movie armorer although I have been one. I defer to your knowledge on this, Chipper and my comments are not directed towards you. I read so many ridiculous takes on firearms made by people with zero knowledge it just gets to me sometimes.
No but I have used firearms for 50yrs, been trained in the military on them as an armorer and am a NRA Instructor and Range Officer. I reload my own ammunition, cast my own bullets and have also taken several courses after the military for gunsmithing. What do you know about firearms? Nothing and it shows. As for fireworks, yes I make my own. Big deal you were on a safety committee for medical devices, so what you wired fireworks. None of that has anything to do with firearms.
The charges were dismissed today, with prejudice, after the judge learned that the state withheld potentially exculpatory evidence from Mr. Baldwin’s defense.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/12/arts/rust-trial-pause-alec-baldwin-shooting.html
As irresistible as it may be to hand a proclaimed anti-gun person a gun and watch them mishandle the thing and kill someone on the set (anyone might tend to be a bit anti-gun if after the fact of having killed someone else with no intentional reason), Alec may say anything he may about guns. In fact, if more people were to develop an anti-gun attitude strictly out of hope of attracting more interest from associates who might want to require some sort of “effective” safety protocol at work, then they could all be better off.
Perhaps Baldwin really has a leftist sensibility as an anti-gunner. But whether politics comes into play or not — gun control (control applied to any available firearm) belongs in our political culture if for no reason other than for sake of equality and regard for a possibility of there being hope of safety.