No, Imprisoning a School Shooter's Parents Isn't Justice
James Crumbley, who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter, may be an unsympathetic defendant. But this prosecution still made little sense.

A jury on Thursday convicted a Michigan man of four counts of involuntary manslaughter for failing to stop his son from killing four of his peers in November 2021, putting an end to a closely watched prosecution that broke new ground in its attempt to punish the parents of a child who committed a school shooting.
James Crumbley faces up to 60 years in prison, as does his wife, Jennifer Crumbley, who was found guilty of the same charges last month. Prosecutors posited the two bore responsibility for allegedly ignoring signs that their son, Ethan Crumbley, was depressed, and for gifting him the gun he ultimately used to execute Madisyn Baldwin, Tate Myre, Justin Shilling, and Hana St. Juliana at Oxford High School.
It may be hard to find sympathy for the Crumbleys, who have, unsurprisingly, been a magnet for backlash. It's plausible they were negligent parents. But it can simultaneously be true that punishing them criminally for that sets a very troubling precedent, no matter how much you dislike them.
The prosecution's argument hinged on a few key points: Ethan Crumbley had mental health issues, which the government said his parents did not do enough to address—a point they emphasized more during Jennifer Crumbley's proceeding. During James Crumbley's trial, the government zeroed in on the gun he purchased for his son as an early Christmas present: He was allegedly careless, prosecutors said, with how he stored the weapon, creating a perfect storm that cleared the way for Ethan to carry out that shooting about two and a half years ago.
But, no matter how ruinous their parenting, the case against the Crumbleys in some sense hinged on what the government wanted the law to say—not on what it actually said. As I wrote last month:
Despite the fraught subject matter, and the absolute tragedy of those deaths, Michigan law still appeared inept to apply to the Crumbley parents. Michigan lawmakers have had the opportunity to pass "child access prevention" legislation authorizing criminal charges against adults "who intentionally or carelessly give minors unsupervised access to guns," noted Reason's Jacob Sullum in 2021, but they have on multiple occasions rejected the idea. And while the state has since enacted a "secure storage" law pertaining to safely securing firearms, it was not on the books at the time of the murders.
It may shock some consciences that the Crumbleys enjoyed going to the gun range as a family activity. I can understand the queasy gut reaction—it's not my idea of a good time, either. But how someone feels about guns generally or politically shouldn't factor into whether or not a parent is criminally responsible for their child's actions.
In that vein, the alleged obviousness of Ethan Crumbley's depression is genuinely questionable, something that has gotten lost in the media hubbub surrounding the case. In Jennifer's trial, Kristy Gibson-Marshall, an Oxford High School assistant principal, testified she "didn't think [Ethan] could possibly be the shooter," so surprised was she that he would be capable of such a thing.
And then there is that notorious meeting at the school—where the Crumbleys were summoned to speak with administrators after a teacher discovered a disturbing drawing Ethan made. Following that discussion, he was allowed to stay on campus, where he would go on to commit the shooting shortly thereafter. But even that narrative isn't so cut and dry, particularly when considering the Crumbley parents did not make that decision alone. The school permitted him to stay. "The Crumbleys had specifically been told that their son should not be left by himself, and Ethan had just expressed to [Tim] Throne, the superintendent, that the thought of missing homework assignments depressed him," I wrote after Jennifer Crumbley's trial. "With hindsight, listening to him was obviously the wrong choice. But I can understand why it was made, as parents, whether weak or adept, are not clairvoyant."
Hindsight is always beneficial, after all, when analyzing events in retrospect. It is also actively unhelpful in determining what a given person would be thinking before having the benefit of knowing an end result. "He didn't know," Mariell Lehman, James Crumbley's defense attorney, told the jury. "He didn't know what was going on with his son. He didn't know what his son was planning."
Prosecutors here, it seems, wanted to have it all. They wanted to prosecute the teenage Ethan Crumbley as an adult, and they did, securing the maximum punishment: life in prison without the possibility of parole. And, at the same time, they wanted to convince a jury that Ethan Crumbley was merely a child who wouldn't have done this if he'd had better parents. Those things are difficult to reconcile, and they speak most aptly to the incoherence of the case against them. That doesn't mean the Crumbley parents are blameless. But not every mistake should be punished with the hammer that is prison, no matter how difficult that may be to digest.
Karen McDonald, who prosecuted the cases, hopes that her playbook will be a model for the future. So while the Crumbleys were the first, they may not be the last.
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Could this punishment idea be used on anyone in a position of authority? Psychiatrists, police, judges, ...? Maybe it is an attack on parental authority. If the parents weren't competent, should their child have been institutionalized?
How about a motherfuckers’ parole board?
https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article285738716.html
The most damning fact here is that, knowing their son had mental health issues, they nonetheless purchased him a firearm, taught him how to use it, and then failed to secure it so that their son couldn't access it without their supervision. They quite literally put a loaded gun in the hands of a troubled adolescent. That seems to me to constitute negligence or recklessness under the common law even in the absence of a "secure storage" statute. (The proposed secure storage statute which did not pass extended criminal liability to a broader set of facts than were present in this case.) This is an extreme case, but holding the parents liable seems to me to be legally correct and morally just. We should hope, however, that this case will be a model only for cases of equally extreme negligence.
When overly simplistic people like you try to analyze complex issues through the benefit of hindsight it makes me question the advantages of democracy. If you were to be told that for every kid with mental issues who commits a crime there are 199,999 other kids with mental issues who do NOT commit a crime, would that change your worthless opinion? Or would you continue to look for a scapegoat to take your unfocused anger out upon?
Every prosecution or lawsuit is an exercise in hindsight. And to the extent that your simplistic statistical example makes any sense at all it proves nothing. This case was not an exercise in statistics but one that turned on specific facts. And it sounds like you’re the angry one.
Even more bullshite! The hindsight in most prosecutions is: “Was a crime actually committed?” and “Did the accused actually commit the crime?” In this case the hindsight is: “Can we find some unsympathetic crime-adjacent people to charge with something and get away with it, ’cause we’re really REALLY angry about this” and “Can we convince a jury that the parents should have had clairvoyant prescience and known that their son was going to commit murder when no one else who knew that he was troubled had such magical abilities?” You just keep getting worse and worse! Maybe you should stop while you’re still somewhat partially keeping one foot in this universe?
"Was a crime actually committed?" Well, how is one supposed to know? In a prosecution for a crime where an element of the offense is negligence or recklessness, as in the Crombley case, the behavior of the defendant is inevitably viewed in hindsight. What did the defendant know or not know? What did the defendant do or fail to do in light of that knowledge or lack thereof? Was the defendant's conduct reasonable under the circumstances? Etc., etc. It's all hindsight. You can't conclude that a crime was committed until you apply hindsight to the facts. I would challenge you to write an involuntary manslaughter statute that doesn't require hindsight in its application.
"Well, how is one supposed to know?"
Really? That's your response? Never mind, you are hopelessly befuddled and estranged from reality. Go back to your tinker-toys and let the adults continue the discussion ...
You really need to chill. Why don't you tell me exactly what it is about my prior comment that you disagree with instead of just venting. Do you have a theory about how courts should adjudicate charges of negligence or recklessness without engaging in hindsight? I'd like to hear it if you do. Or you could take up my challenge and try to draft an involuntary manslaughter statute that is entirely forward looking. That's how an adult would respond.
Complete gibberish, this is nothing more than the hindsight argument that Binion has highlighted above. Almost every adolescent is "troubled" and has mental health "issues". It's the defining characteristic of adolescence. Almost none go on to shoot a person. I see zero evidence that there was *anything* a priori about their son that was particularly concerning or unusual.
Uhh ya. No one should be giving adolescents unsupervised access to a gun. As you pointed out "Almost every adolescent is “troubled” and has mental health “issues”. " means that every parent should be on notice that they should not get guns.
Pure bull! I took my children to the gun range a few times so that they knew not only how dangerous they can be but how to handle them competently if they ever needed to. Supervision is a pipe dream! At any moment on that gun range one of those emotionally labile teenagers could have gotten angry at me and shot me. How clueless do you want to look to the rest of us? When I was an army recruit at basic training there was an incident in which a recruit shot one of the Drill Sergeants who was “supervising” our training. Go peddle your lame opinions somewhere else. Life is not now, never has been and never will be safe and nothing you recommend can ever make it safe.
A kid might also find a gun at a friend’s house. You never know.
Gee, we were hunting by ourselves at 16. It was common. Had our guns in our trucks at school. Never had a single school shooting. Play the fainting daisy routine somewhere else. Oh scary kids with guns, fuck it's been that way for centuries dipshit and still is in almost all of America outside the fucking cities.
Yep. The parking lot of my school always had pickups with dear rifles in them. I don’t know how common that is anymore.
Not to much, but, kids with guns, especially during hunting season, with little or no supervision is still fairly common
I also went to a school that permitted kids to bring guns to school and the school itself had an indoor gun range. My HS physics class included an experiment called a ballistic pendulum where we figured out the speed of a bullet by firing it into suspended railroad tie. All the guns were rifle and were hunting rifles. There were strict rules about how those guns were handled in the school. The gun in this case was not handled correctly nor was it a hunting rifle.
I enjoyed target shooting age 15 one summer with a single-shot 22 rifle under the supervision of an 18-year-old camp counselor. A single-shot 22-calibre rifle is far more likely than a semi-automatic handgun to keep a kid's mind on hunting and target-shooting, besides being harder to conceal in school.
Suppose parents allow their 17 year old to drive a car even though there is evidence that the child has some mental illness issues (perhaps, to some jury pools, the child identifying as a gender other than their biological gender would be a sign of such mental illness).
If that child then intentionally drives through a crowd of people killing some, should those parents be prosecuted for involuntary manslaughter?
That’s different because cars weren’t designed and made to kill people!!!!111!1!1!! - Molly (every prog really)
"The most damning fact here is that, knowing their son had mental health issues, they nonetheless purchased him a firearm, taught him how to use it, and then failed to secure it so that their son couldn’t access it without their supervision."
Now do a car.
Also check numbers on US teens with "mental health issues".
This is just criminalizing the 2nd Amendment.
Ok, had Ethan Crumbley been drawing pictures and writing about taking a car and running people over, the parents took no action, bought him a car, then he did take the car and run people over, I think we might be looking at similar prosecutions.
No matter how you try to spin it it’s still wrong! The “hindsight” fallacy fails without a cause-and-effect demonstration. As I have pointed out repeatedly, if 100,000 troubled children who have access to guns draw a picture of a gun and 99,999 of them never commit murder with a gun and one of them DOES commit murder with a gun, then violating the rights of the other 99,999 to keep and bear arms in the hopes of preventing one murder is unjustified. The relevant statistic here is the “Positive Predictive Value” and, in a similar way, the “Cost to Prevent One Death.” Read up and you might learn something if it’s not too complex for your simplistic mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_and_negative_predictive_values
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_needed_to_treat
I agree with you the actions of Ethan Crumbley's parents here are simply too negligent to overlook. This isn't going to open the floodgates to prosecutions. What it hopefully does is send a message to parents that with having guns comes a responsibility for that gun. What I find disturbing in the comments is the number of people that let these parent off easy. So, let's just set aside all the slippery slope talk and focus on the parent action were they unacceptable or not. Would you as a parent have acted differently, because I sure the hell would have acted differently.
Putting someone who committed no crime in prison for thirty years to "send a message to parents" is not only unjust, it's stupid. No, we're not going to "put aside" the slippery slope talk. The history of the encroachment of government power eroding the Bill of Rights is replete with slippery slopes and there is no possible doubt that once prosecutors discover that they can get away with "sending messages" by prosecuting novel interpretations of vague statutes it will spread across America while we're waiting for the Supreme Court to strike them down. But by all means cite one example of outlawing behavior that successfully prevented a single bad outcome if you think you can.
O T I see it exactly the same way.
The article says A jury on Thursday convicted a Michigan man of four counts of involuntary manslaughter for failing to stop his son from killing.... but in the very next paragraph it says the two bore responsibility for allegedly ignoring signs that their son, Ethan Crumbley, was depressed, and for gifting him the gun.
It wasn't "failing to stop" it was actively participating in the crime by "gifting him the gun" to a troubled psychotic teenager.
I can certainly see criminal liability in that in the particular factual circumstances presented here.
If only you were able to follow the advice in your handle! It is not now and has never been a crime in that city or state to provide your family with guns. The parents were charged and prosecuted under a "novel interpretation" of a law that they did not violate. The child who committed murder was never legally prevented from owning or possessing firearms there, so it is impossible for the parents to have committed any crime by providing him with a firearm. It is not illegal to use poor judgement and it would be impossible to properly define "judgement" objectively for such a law. Please, "think it through" before you destroy our cherished American liberty any further!
Both parents were convicted of involuntary manslaughter. In Michigan, "involuntary manslaughter means that a person had no intention of killing another but, due to their careless or reckless actions, caused the death of a human being." That exactly describes what the parents did.
I have thought it through, and you're wrong. You'll never admit it though. Two different juries tell you you're wrong, though.
Think It Through has it exactly right.
These charges are an attempt to cover up the failings of the school. The school is the one who claimed the child was disturbed, they also let the gun on to the school grounds. How could they find a drawing yet miss a gun? These parents had no time with the child after the school told them of their claims. If anyone could have foreseen the outcome it should have been the school. I can only hope these parents have the money to fight back these charges. If prosecutions like this continue no person is safe.
I am not comforted by the obvious fact that the government is not only not there to protect us from criminals before the fact but also that they are not our friends after the fact. Allowing the government the authority investigate, charge and punish the guilty is premised on the assumption that cooler heads will prevail in the course of due process over the retributive justice that can be expected at the hands of an angry lynch mob. And yet here is a perfect example of government violating all standards of due process to hand out an emotionally based retributive justice almost as bad as an angry mob. So not only are they inept at enforcing the few necessary laws we have, they're also bad at punishing the right people after the fact. So, the worst of both when it comes to government in this case.
My take from what you have written is that these parents might as well have been handed over to a mob.
And I am OK with that in this instance of an incontrovertible case of mass murder. No lawyer; no judge; they either convince the mob that they were not responsible for how their kid turned out or they get stomped to death. There is justice in that.
Well you can’t expect them to punish their fellow government workers, can you?
Billy could you write the article without your pussy take? No one cares about that queasy feeling in your gut and almost no one here, except fucking idgets like MG, comes anywhere close to getting a queasy feeling in their guts about families going to the range together. In most of America that is fairly common.
In which soldiermedic pretends that he and his circle of friends in rural Montana represent "most of America".
Fuck you're a fucking moron. What is the comparison between the area of rural America vs urban America? Which is larger in area fuck head? And in rural America how common is it for families to shoot for fun together? Fucking moron. Lyingjeffy demonstrates his stupidity and his illiteracy today, like always. Fucking idiot lefty. Run away fat boy.
"Fuck you’re a fucking moron."
Evergreen statement. This could be posted in every reply ever given to that fat Nazi piece of shit.
Haha, love it.
Look, you arrogant piece of shit. I am not such a self-absorbed narcissist to believe that my tiny slice of the country represents "most of America". There are other people living in this country you know, and they don't all think like you, not even most of them. YOU and your team need to see the rest of the country and actually LISTEN to what they have to say, rather than arrogantly dismiss them all as "not real Americans" because they don't think and act like you expect them to. Maybe you should have a real conversation with other human beings rather than the cows on your ranch.
And in rural America how common is it for families to shoot for fun together?
I don't know, AND YOU DON'T EITHER. You just ASSUME they all do because you and your little tiny circle of friends seem to like it.
Fuck you and fuck your narcissistic self-absorption.
You have a lot of nerve calling anyone arrogant after your first post.
I do not shoot.
It is hardly uncommon for families to go to a shooting range together.
Haha, Lying Jeffy continues to expose himself. Keep going Jeffy, you’re doing great!
The people I know from rural Wisconsin and I know take guns very seriously. They have guns, know guns and use guns to hunt. I cannot image them being as cavalier with guns as Ethan Crumbley's parents.
Correct. The rural population is not most of America by numbers. But they probably are most of sane America, not emotionally crippled, not deluded by progressive fantasies, and not wishing for Big Brother, er, Sister, er, Gender Fluid Tyrant Person. And if Armageddon every comes, they probably will be most of survivors.
According to Statista, the 2020 census is about 55 million rural and 275 million urban.
But they probably are most of sane America, not emotionally crippled, not deluded by progressive fantasies, and not wishing for Big Brother, er, Sister, er, Gender Fluid Tyrant Person.
Well gee, if we're going to be pulling out the stereotypes...
Not emotionally crippled? How about all those rural parents who beat their kids because "that's how their parents raised them and they turned out all right"? How about all of those rural folks who think that sex is an abomination (unless it's them getting some)?
Not deluded by progressive fantasies? No, they are just deluded by right-wing fantasies, such as the immigrants are CRIMINAL INVADERS who are coming to STEAL THEIR JERBZ and RAPE THEIR WIMMIN, that Real Americans are people who think that America is a Christian Nation because Jesus wrote the Constitution, who think that it's possible to Pray The Gay Away from those sinful homosexuals.
Oh and they most definitely are looking for a Big Brother. His name is Trump.
"No, they are just deluded by right-wing fantasies, such as the immigrants are CRIMINAL INVADERS who are coming to STEAL THEIR JERBZ"
Care to guess who has gotten basically ALL of the jobs under Biden?
Hint: Not people born in the USA.
Good job Jeff. I think you should use this post again in the future.
“….rural folks who think that sex is an abomination….”
Lol. Oooookay. You are becoming more unhinged with each passing week. This will be a rough year for you.
Haha.
In which Jeff displays his abject disdain and condescension of anyone that doesn’t live like he does.
So, today I learned:
- All adolescents are mentally 'troubled', there was nothing particularly distinguishing about Ethan Crumbley
and
- It is totally normal and okay to give guns to adolescents who are mentally 'troubled'
At what point will libertarians learn that the concept of negligence exists? Your liberty to be an irresponsible asshole is not limitless and absolute.
Why is it that 'libertarians' are becoming more and more synonymous with 'misanthropic assholes'?
If your take here is that "I am so afraid of the gubmint grabbing my guns that I am willing to endorse mentally ill kids having access to guns at school" then you are not helping the gun rights movement and you should sit down and shut up.
The kid should have waited till he was old enough to join the army, right?
There's a middle ground here, which I do support. That is: These parents were absolutely piss-poor and irresponsible as all git-out... But what they did should NOT have been a crime! ANY time we punish "person A" for the doings of "person B" (wherein "B" was NOT coerced), is a mockery of justice! This is highly similar to many-many nitwits in these comments, who want to punish web sites for the comments of the commenters, which were "published" by the web site.
PS, if all good things are mandated (good parenting), and all bad things are punished, we have ZERO room left for personal freedoms!!! Government Almighty will define ALL things good and bad!
"who want to punish web sites for the comments of the commenters"
That was a really good post from you. +1000000000000
Thanks Kind Sir!!!
Persons A (the parents) were not punished for the doings of Person B (the teen shooter). Persons A were punished for their own negligence or recklessness in giving Person B the means to commit mass murder and then in failing to take reasonable steps to prevent it. There have been a number of cases where adults allowed minors to drink at a party, and were prosecuted when the minor subsequently drove and killed someone. The adult wasn't convicted of drunk driving, but in negligently allowing a minor to drink and drive. The Crombley case is no different in principle.
And while the school could have done a lot more, isn't it a tenet of conservative/libertarian thought that the parents/family should have the principal role in raising their children. Why is it, then, that when things go horribly wrong suddenly it's the school that should bear the responsibility that the parents manifestly failed to bear?
Maybe the whole blame shifting game is complete BS start to end including charging alcohol distributors for a drunk driving accident.
In which Jeffy lobbies to be the new Michael Hihn. "Fuck your right to self defense, I have a right not to be shot by somebody else's mentally troubled child."
Why is it that ‘libertarians’ are becoming more and more synonymous with ‘misanthropic assholes’?
That is all on you, buddy.
Should we get the mendacious fatfuck a fainting couch? We'll have to make sure that things is super reinforced.
A couch would be doomed. Might as well just lay out mattresses on the floor.
I'd rather a dugout in soldiermedic's pasture. A bit of water might clean his fat ass in the process.
Hey look, it's Chucky the Lying Piece of Shit.
At no point did I ever disparage any right to self-defense. I absolutely believe that individuals ought to have the right to self-defense and that right includes owning guns.
But you people who take it WAY too far, by trying to assert that the right to own a gun includes the right for a mentally ill teenager to take guns to school, are doing more harm than good. You are making the gun rights advocates out to look like the left-wing stereotypes that they make us out to be.
Whatever happened to "freedom is messy"?
I guess we have defined where you view rights as ending.
Enh, it's Cartman Retarded Imperialist. He should just be ignored like the idiotic fascist he is.
"But you people who take it WAY too far, by trying to assert that the right to own a gun includes the right for a mentally ill teenager to take guns to school"
Who, exactly, advocated allowing mentally ill teens bringing guns to school?
Like most proggie idiots, he won't argue what people state, he rather argue what he wants the argument to be. Largely because, like most proggie idiots, fat boy is a follower, and suffers from group think and has an overinflated sense of his own rather mediocre intelligence.
But given your comments above, I don't see much principle or even decency in your viewpoint. Above you endorse the idea of "mob justice" against the parents, which is EVEN WORSE than what happened here.
Who's 'negligence'? As pointed out; The everyone's an armed-shooter gun-free zone policies of Commie-School grounds literally invited this to happen more-so than any influence from the parents.
Is it really the parents sole responsibility to maintain school security and how are they suppose to do that when schools are literally over-riding their authority?
Nope: although all adolescents are mentally troubled, there may have been some distinguishing features about Ethan Crumbley. Setting up straw men by leaving out the other half of the argument does not make you look particularly intelligent. The other half of the argument is, in reality, the distinguishing features in this case did not reliably predict murderous behavior and, therefore, should not be used to prosecute anyone for failing to predict his murderous actions. This is a "post hoc" fallacy and you should know better.
And, doubling down on your straw men makes you look doubly stupid: no one reasonable has ever said that it is okay to give guns to troubled adolescents, although it IS "totally normal" which is at least part of the Supreme Court test for regulating firearms. In order to prevail with an argument that people who give adolescents firearms are culpable in crimes committed with those firearms you have to prove that it is predictable that troubled adolescents will commit crimes. Come back when you have statistics that demonstrate the rate at which troubled adolescents commit crimes with legally-obtained firearms and let us all know.
You really like the whole statistics thing, but individual cases are not decided on statistics. The Crumbley case was not about whether some x% of disturbed adolescents commit mass murder. It was about whether these specific parents, given the knowledge that they had of their specific son's state of mind, being in possession of the specific knowledge that the school was concerned about his drawings and writings, having purchased a firearm for their son and unquestionably having failed to secure it properly, acted negligently or recklessly IN THIS SPECIFIC CASE UNDER THESE SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES. Statistics and "post hoc ergo propter hoc" logical aphorisms did not and should not decide this case. You may disagree whether the parents' behavior constituted criminal negligence or recklessness, but two juries have disagreed with you.
I rarely agree with Billy but I don't like this prosecution much. Prosecutors have always been driven by politics but the increasingly common novel interpretations of law are disturbing. From Chauvin to the prosecutions of Trump and J6 demonstrators to Douglass Mackey to a few thousand more we are clearly in world where cooler heads will not prevail. Prosecutions are openly and unapologetically political. It is the new normal. I honestly don't see a road back.
A teenager taking a gun to school and intentionally killing some other teenagers is a totally different matter than a trained and experienced police officer violating his training and department policy while ignoring multiple attempts by fellow officers to get him to let up resulting in the probably unintentional death of a suspect. Trying to lump those two together under the "novel interpretations of law" slogan fails. Prosecution of the parents of the teenager for murder when they are at most guilty of bad parenting - which is not against the law - is indeed a "novel interpretation" of the law. Being a bad cop and being convicted of negligent homicide is not in any way a "novel interpretation" of the law and - although the prosecution may have been emotionally motivated - the facts and application of clearly written laws were followed meticulously and appropriately in this case. An unemotional appeal failed on the merits. The appeals of these parents are very likely to result in a reversal of their convictions. We will see ...
Yeah except the autopsy shows that George Floyd died of an overdose not asphyxiation. But you're right that case was not novel, just political.
The autopsy showed no such thing. Apparently, you have not even read any of the articles being discussed here, let alone the facts of the case.
The prosecutor for Oakland County is a classic Soros-style prosecutor. Which means she's MORE apt to be political than before.
'It may shock some consciences that the Crumbleys enjoyed going to the gun range as a family activity. I can understand the queasy gut reaction—it's not my idea of a good time, either.'
Sure, not like the joy you get from thinking about taking the family to drag queen story hour or some rainbow parade, eh?
Fuck you.
Gun nuts are among my favorite culture war casualties. One of the best attributes of the modern American culture war is that gun nuts, anti-abortion absolutists, Israel's right-wing belligerence, supporters of Israel's right-wing assholes, fans of limitless special privilege for religion, and other elements of the conservative electoral coalition are going to see their political aspirations stomped because they aligned with the losing end of the culture war, the weaker side at the modern marketplace of ideas, and the wrong side of history.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit, that is.
You’re not giving us your best Artie. Try harder.
He's not capable of good, let along best...
Gun rights have expanded and become more protected in the last decade. Not sure how that makes it a culture war casualty.
Massive cope.
The tide of the culture war will sweep away conservative preferences until all wingnuts have left is the magnanimity of the culture war's victors.
You figure better Americans are not going to address gun nuttery as the culture war continues to shape our national progress against the wishes and efforts of conservatives? You figure the culture war's winners will forget about gun nuttery? Good luck with that.
Pure wishcasting, and as I said, a massive cope.
Things aren't looking too great for your culture war these days.
Sad white elitists 🙁
Parents should have responsibility for their children. Like with pets. Your pet gets loose and goes on a rampage and kills people, you likely would be charged.
That might be true if the almighty state had not encroached significantly in a hundred different ways over the last century resulting in the erosion of the AUTHORITY of parents over their children. RESPONSIBILITY without AUTHORITY is a dangerously ridiculous concept. If your dog escapes and kills someone, they are not going to execute the owner for negligent homicide under any law that could be considered to be Constitution-compliant currently. If the owner violated some local law against deliberately keeping a dangerous animal they might be fined or even confined in the local jail for a short term. Not forty years in the state penitentiary. But by all means continue to let your emotions run wild …
Difference being teenagers have fucking agency and will do all manner of shit against their upbringing and parents wishes.
Your pet gets loose and goes on a rampage and kills people, you likely would be charged.
Sadly, that is NOT likely. The most you would be charged with is a misdemeanor like "animal at large". I agree it should be like you said—if your dog kills someone, you should be charged as if you did the killing. That would discourage keeping dangerous dogs.
Is it your opinion, Vernon, that the purpose of laws is to discourage bad or dangerous behavior? If so, maybe you can tell me how it feels to experience a massive failure of your opinion in the real world. Because I have done a fair amount of reading on the subject and I can't find any evidence to support the notion that laws against fornication, drugs and alcohol, gambling, prostitution, spitting on the sidewalk, assault and battery, gossiping, adultery, etc. has ever prevented a single case of any of those.
In MY opinion the purpose of laws is to clearly state the proscribed actions in order to put potential violators on notice that they will be punished if they violate the letter of the law. That’s why many laws have been struck down by the courts over the centuries for being unconstitutionally broad or vague. If those laws prevent someone from violating them that’s fine, but it is not the purpose of them. If you can’t tell in advance that your actions violate a law, then that law is – de facto – unconstitutionally broad and vague. On the other hand, if most people feel that it is very unlikely that they will be punished for a particular action, even though they know it would be a violation, then they are unlikely to refrain.
I challenged you above to draft a statute criminalizing involuntary manslaughter that does not involve some element of hindsight; i.e., a statute that gives absolute certainty IN ADVANCE as to every circumstance that would be considered involuntary manslaughter. I'm still waiting for your response. So I challenge you again to come down out of the clouds and tell us all exactly how we should define involuntary manslaughter so as to "clearly state the proscribed actions" in a way that we will know with the certainty you seem to require that any specific act or set of acts on our part either is or is not involuntary manslaughter. And if you can't draft such a statute (spoiler alert: you can't) then should involuntary manslaughter not be a crime?
Clearly this shooting was premeditated by the shooter, and unrelated to his alleged mental issues and prior hallucinations, and not a mental break from reality as floated by the political-opportunist prosecutor (REMEMBER: His own journal entry only hours before the shooting showed he knew what he was doing, that it was immoral and illegal, and that he would go to jail the rest of his life for the evil acts he was about to commit. This means his alleged prior displays of supposed mental illness and the parents' failure to respond are UNRELATED to the crimes he committed! Premeditated, evil acts are rarely predictable, foreseeable and preventable!)
And of course, the victims' parents all on board with suing everybody and screwing the "Oxford Strong!" community...the school, the school district, the school psychologist... "Everybody should have known! This is predictable, it's what weird teens do! Everybody is responsible! Poor shooter's signs of illness went unnoticed, others are to blame, and he's a victim too! If only he'd gotten more hugs---even just one hug from mom and dad in the Principal's office that day!" (yes, the Prosecutor argued that).
I do find it interesting that the Parents are being charged with Manslaughter for leaving a gun where their CHILD could get it, while their CHILD was charged as an ADULT.
Logic has no role to play here.
To be fair, then, the parents should have been charged as juveniles.
The whole business of charging children as adults should go away. It seems to be more for political benefit than for any legitimate penological interest.
If even the law has no role to play in this case, how can you expect reason to factor in?
I hope James Crumbley and Jennifer Crumbley spend the hardest time that can lawfully and reasonably be arranged; that they spend as much time in prison as can be lawfully and reasonably be arranged; and that they somehow become better -- perhaps even adequate -- people. Maybe they'll learn that being a minimally responsible adult is better than "try to get better at not getting caught."
Slack-jawed gun nuts with terrible judgment and antisocial tendencies are poor candidate for sympathy. Reasonable people should want the law to discourage others from emulating the Crumbleys to any degree. Americans are amply justified in protecting society from these two losers and anyone like them. And there is nothing wrong with accountability, particularly in the context of children killed by gun nuttery.
Has either of these two assholes accepted responsibility or expressed remorse for being such a lethally dangerous fuckup?
This was much better attempt to troll people and get an argument response. C-
Society continues to address the dangerous, worthless losers — antisocial misfits, gun nuts, rural slack-jaws, half-educated bigots — who find great support among the disaffected, downscale, right-wing culture war casualties who congregate at reason.com. The Crumbleys and their fans are no problem the culture war and better Americans are not already solving.
Lol. Look at Artie go. Get that adjective count up, old man!
How does it feel for your philosophy of life to have failed so miserably? “Society” has never in history accomplished anything but death and destruction. Whenever society stops trying to impose its preferences on individuals cooperation, wealth and happiness improve. If you declare everything you don’t like to be illegal whenever you have the power to impose such on society, only strife and culture war will ensue. A few crimes must be enforced by society. The rest of your questionable moral authority should be terminated with extreme prejudice.
My side has won the culture war, is on the right side of history, and holds the stronger hand at the modern American marketplace of ideas.
Do you see a huge comeback on the horizon for superstitious gay-bashers, half-educated racists, old-timey misogynists, backwater antisemites, knuckle-dragging Islamophobes, religious kooks, drawling transphobes, economically inadequate rural populations, etc.?
You haven’t won shit. When your side is done ruining the world, we’ll have a new dark ages, and your side will have the hardest time surviving. This will continue for a bit until the freaks die off, then OUR side will come back around to put the world back together again.
It’s happened a number of times in history already. It'll happen again. Cope.
What about siblings, relatives and neighbors too? Why not put the whole city on trial of involuntary manslaughter?
Oh wait; they already did with UN-Constitutional gun regulations.
It takes a village...
Is it safe to assume that the new “blame the parents” trend is going to be almost exclusively used in cases where murders and shootings are of the “mental health” variety, and not the “they dissed me” or “I wanted their shoes”variety? Or am I jumping to conclusions?
Edit: I see now it’s two members of the same family in two separate cases pertaining to the same killings. Not two completely different instances of this being used. Hence, the mistaken idea this was a “trend” . Still, I can’t wait to see the can of worms this opens up.
I am hopeful that this will be reversed on appeal. The technical flaws in the prosecution alone would cause dismissal in any reasonable appellate court. The lengthy list of logical fallacies that the juries swallowed hook, line and sinker should be enough to destroy the entire prosecution!
If we could predict with some level of certainty who would commit such a crime, and a rare one at that, then things would be easy, wouldn't they. NOT! Is your teen depressed? Do you even know? Should they be allowed to drive? I know of a mom who took her son on a cruise. The boy jumped off a high deck and killed himself. Should she be charged?
Missing a major data point - is that guy a registered republican, or not?
James Crumbley faces up to 60 years in prison
Wow. That's so much more than the slap on the wrist that the woman who actually committed involuntary manslaughter on my son got.
Our justice system is a joke.
It may shock some consciences that the Crumbleys enjoyed going to the gun range as a family activity. I can understand the queasy gut reaction—it's not my idea of a good time, either.
I am *shocked* to find out that Billy Binion is a mincing little soy boy.
I am not upset with the verdict. The parents were responsible for ensuring the weapon was properly secured. Obviously that didn't happen. Therefore they are responsible.
What if it got stolen because it wasn't properly secured? Are they responsible for whatever the thief does with it?
I'm in favor of that.
Why?
I agree with the apparently unpopular opinion that the parents share responsibility for the murders. You can't have freedom without responsibility, and one of the primary responsibilities of firearm ownership is to take reasonable steps to keep it out of the hands of unauthorized people. Their son is a minor who could not purchase or carry firearms on his own, so his parents are responsible for keeping any firearms in their house secured. Of course that doesn't diminish their son's guilt.
If he is a minor for whom his parents were responsible, then how can he legitimately be tried as an adult? He’s either being considered an adult, responsible for his actions, or he’s a child and shouldn’t be tried as an adult.
Furthermore, as others have said, if this is going to be a precedent, is it going to be limited to failures of parental duty? The school officials who allowed him to remain in the school and who failed to prevent a gun from entering the school would seem to have equal culpability to the parents.
Stupidity does not equal criminality.
The prosecution had better make sure that they are squeaky clean as karma has a way of hitting back.
As many example have shown that many prosecutors are guilty of the very arguments they use against defendants.
It's a shame, but our judicial system is much more about winning and losing that about actual justice. Many prosecutors are the equivalent of "Lizard People" who lack humanity.
Had the parents committed a crime a few hours before the shooting? If so, what crime? Or did they do nothing illegal up until the second their son shot someone? Could they have been arrested if the son didn't shoot anyone?
Can we apply this precedent across the board? I'm thinking it won't be.