Alabama Discovers There Is No 'Humane' Way To Execute Someone
Instead of searching for gentle execution methods, states should just stop killing prisoners.

After executing death row inmate Kenneth Eugene Smith by the controversial nitrogen hypoxia method in January, Alabama legislators have introduced a bill to ban the practice entirely. Ironically, nitrogen hypoxia—in which a prisoner is killed by being forced to breathe pure nitrogen—was originally introduced in Alabama as a supposedly more humane form of execution than lethal injection.
The Alabama Legislature passed a bill allowing the state to conduct executions by nitrogen hypoxia in 2018. At the time, the execution method was completely untested—a fact that caused it to quickly become controversial at the same time as Alabama death row inmates clamored to be killed using the hypothetical technique.
As lethal injection drugs have become increasingly difficult to obtain, alternate drug cocktails have led to a spate of grisly executions nationwide. Alabama in particular has conducted several botched executions in recent years, all stemming from prison officials' inability to correctly place an IV line for lethal injection drugs.
Smith, who had previously survived a botched lethal injection attempt, was killed by nitrogen hypoxia in January. Smith won the right to be executed by nitrogen hypoxia instead of lethal injection last year, though his lawyers reversed course in a last-minute attempt to save his life, arguing that nitrogen hypoxia would itself be overly cruel. He was the first known person to be killed by nitrogen hypoxia, and witnesses described how Smith "struggled against his restraints" and "shook and writhed on a gurney" as he was dying.
On February 27, state Rep. Neil Rafferty (D–Birmingham), introduced a bill to ban nitrogen hypoxia in Alabama—instead forcing a return to lethal injection in most cases. (Execution by electric chair is technically allowed in Alabama, but inmates are very unlikely to opt into it.)
The legislation, which isn't likely to pass, has been framed by many anti–death penalty advocates as an attempt to remove an inherently cruel execution method.
"I think [the bill] is a valiant attempt to reintroduce a modicum of humanity to Alabama that will most likely fail," Lauren Faraino, founder and director of The Woods Foundation, a criminal justice nonprofit, told the Alabama Reflector this week. "I don't think that any of our politicians have the interest or the courage to reverse what can only be described as torture."
But is it? While nitrogen hypoxia is clearly a terrible way to die, lethal injection executions are also famously cruel—the most popular drug cocktail is known to cause searing, burning pain before killing inmates. A world where death row prisoners are not able to opt into nitrogen hypoxia is not obviously one where Alabama is less cruel in how it executes inmates sentenced to die.
While horror at the gruesome nature of nitrogen hypoxia executions is understandable, the back-and-forth on the method—first hailed as more "humane" and then as cruel— shows an unfortunate truth: As it turns out, there's not really a gentle way to kill someone.
If Alabama legislators actually want to stop killing death row prisoners in hideous ways, then they should consider not killing them at all.
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Shoot 'em
At least a firing squad conveys some dignity to the victim. All the other methods are more like methods of putting down a dog.
Old yeller whimpers.
He died like a man.
Are you an animal biologist?
Why no, I'm not an animal biologist. However, I am the killer of a fair number of animals of various species and several different orders (mammal, avian, reptilian, and fish - not to count insects).
Since we are talking execution of men, my experience with mammals seems most relevant. A bullet to the brain is quick, efficient, and pretty much fail-proof if high velocity fragmenting or hollow-point bullets are used. We have the technology and it is unflinchingly successful, if a bit messy, so do not try to make arguments about how it's done being "cruel and unusual". Even if the bullet blows all the way through from the back of the head and exits in the face - it works! Either you support doing it, or you don't. If you oppose it that's OK, just surprise some of us, be honest and admit you don't want to see it done to anyone, anytime, anywhere, for any cause, nor matter how horrendous the crime of the condemned was.
For some of the monsters we have running loose, "quick and painless" is too good!
Just to be clear, saying someone "deserves a horrible, painful death" and "we the people have a right to inflict that horrible painful death" is two different things.
And no, I don't want to be part of the 2nd.
The USA is definitely 'punishment' happy - having the largest percentage of the population in jail.
Its like speed limits. 65mph... what? People are dying... lets try 55mph.... More people died? Lets try 45mph... no 35. In my area they've dropped about every 50 mph speed limit to 35 and added red arrows to left turns.... because we all know left turns are the most dangerous. Meanwhile, everyone ignores the 35 (unless there is a camera nearby) and still no one uses their turn signal.
Maybe... just Maybe the mentality behind what is not working.... is wrong...
There is an idea that a threat of a sufficient level of punishment will deter criminals from committing crimes.
I think the problem with that idea is trusting government to get it right. Every time an innocent person suffers the punishment for a crime they did not commit the practical threat of that punishment is lessend. The more innocents that are punished the less the criminals will fear that punishment.
Bambis mom went down with out a sound. Granted the dogs in where the red fern grow had a worse fate
All the other methods are more like methods of putting down a dog.
Yes.
What did you think we were doing?
We're putting down a dangerous animal.
Seriously, this.
To me, there are a few relevant questions.
A) Is capital punishment inherently and always unjust? Is it the case that it is always wrong to execute people?
To me, it seems obvious that the answer is no, it is not always wrong to execute people. I can fairly easily think of lots of people who have thoroughly deserved execution.
To see if you agree with me, think about the worst criminal that you've ever heard of. The person, man or woman, guilty of the most outrageous atrocities you can imagine. Ask yourself--did that person deserve execution? Would it be inherently morally wrong for the state to end that person's life?
If your answer is "It would be wrong," then you're a principled opponent of capital punishment. I respect your view, but disagree with you. If your answer is "It would not be wrong," then you've already agreed that there exist circumstances under which capital punishment is not morally wrong.
B) What degree of certainty do we need in order to allow capital punishment? And can we achieve that level of certainty?
There's no doubt that innocent people have been executed. This is a terrible thing. If there is no way to execute those deserving of capital punishment without running a risk of executing the innocent, then that is a serious argument against capital punishment. Not a dispositive one, but a serious argument with which I must engage.
But there are also cases where there is no reasonable doubt, where there can be no reasonable doubt. The question here is two-fold. First, is "no reasonable doubt" a high enough standard of certainty? Secondly, can we achieve "no reasonable doubt" at an acceptable cost? After all, resources expended on investigations and trials and appeals are resources that are no longer available for anything else. Can we, should we, spend those resources this way? Or do we need them for something else?
To my way of thinking, we are in any event committed to "no reasonable doubt" before inflicting any judicial punishment. So the only additional cost is the additional appeals. Here, I don't know the numbers, but my gut feeling is that the execution of murderers is a morally serious purpose which should at least have priority over funding racist DIE indoctrination via the so-called education system.
As for mistakes--well, we can learn from our mistakes. We do not have the option of doing anything perfectly, but that is not, in any other context, an argument against doing things. We learn from our mistakes and do better.
C) Is there a sufficiently non-cruel method of execution available?
Sure. Three that I can think of offhand. Hanging, firing squad, and guillotine. They are currently out of fashion, because they don't look like medical procedures. Well, why should execution look like a medical procedure?
Furthermore, any state in the Union, or any sovereign government in the world, can easily arrange for any one of these three forms of execution, without relying on potentially difficult-to-source and difficult-to-administer-without-torture lethal chemicals.
a) Yes. The rational for it is something like this.... He did a terrible thing, therefor WE get to do a terrible thing. So our standards are based on his standards (and yes, it's most often a 'he'). We effectively have lowered ourselves to the perps standards.
b) Certainty is not a factor. Its guilty or not-guilty. Sorry, if you were convicted of a horrible crime based on purely circumstantial evidence or even just the jury (or judge) didn't like you - to bad. Punishment phase is separate. Is the crime bad enough? YES, Death penalty eligible.
c) Sure, but the medical establishment won't let us use it. I had surgery a few years ago and didn't even recognize falling 'asleep' nor 'waking up'. 2 hrs had passed. During any of that time I could have been given a lethal dose of Heroin or Carbon Monoxide or ?
The problem is that most of the civilized world has already agreed not to even try. Lock them up and throw away the key. That works to and it makes it clear who is the good guy.
"a) Yes. The rational for it is something like this…. He did a terrible thing, therefor WE get to do a terrible thing. So our standards are based on his standards (and yes, it’s most often a ‘he’). We effectively have lowered ourselves to the perps standards."
You assume that executing a murderer is a terrible thing. That's where we differ. What you see as a moral outrage, I see as a moral requirement.
I suppose, applying your logic to other cases, that you would oppose imprisoning a kidnapper or imposing financial penalties on a thief. After all, those could just as easily be described as "we lower ourselves to his standards."
The fundamental issue here is that you seem to see no difference between the vicious violence perpetrated by the criminal upon the innocent and the just violence carried out by the state upon the criminal. To you, it's all just violence.
"b) Certainty is not a factor. Its guilty or not-guilty. Sorry, if you were convicted of a horrible crime based on purely circumstantial evidence or even just the jury (or judge) didn’t like you – to bad. Punishment phase is separate. Is the crime bad enough? YES, Death penalty eligible."
I was addressing the question of whether we should be against the death penalty in principle. Absolute certainty is not usually attainable. We are, after all, fallible human beings. The question is if any attainable degree of certainty is enough to justify capital punishment--or, indeed, any punishment.
"c) Sure, but the medical establishment won’t let us use it. I had surgery a few years ago and didn’t even recognize falling ‘asleep’ nor ‘waking up’. 2 hrs had passed. During any of that time I could have been given a lethal dose of Heroin or Carbon Monoxide or ?"
A non-torturous form of execution which the state cannot actually confidently deploy is not available as a practical option. In contrast, ropes and guns will always be in easy reach of the state.
A. No
B. Very high and never.
C. Yes but irrelevant.
I think you are wrong about B because you are fixated on error and ignore the inevitability of corruption. Some innocents are killed by the judicial system not because the prosecutor was mistaken but because the prosecution was wrongly motivated. No government has yet demonstrated that it can be trusted to administer a death penalty fairly.
I'm told vets have the technology.
They lie. It's a dog. Who gives a damn how the feel when they die. Just pay your money and get some peace of mind that it was killed "painlessly".
It's a sub-human murdering POS why do I care that they are uncomfortable? This is just misguided altruism.
You are 100% certain that the guy getting killed is the guilty one? I can't be so I can't support it.
If it's my dog, I care.
Then shoot him yourself.
How is Canada doing it? You fucking bozo.
Justin and his pals get all high on coke and drag them out to woods.
I don't think Canada should be a model for anything.
Or just hit them over the head with a sledgehammer and be done with it.
Or the thing in that shit movie, no country for old men
>While nitrogen hypoxia is clearly a terrible way to die,
Says no one who's had any instruction in the dangers of inert-gas hypoxia ever.
CO2 hypoxia is an approved method of animal slaughter for god's sake. N2 doesn't even trigger the suffocation reflex.
I speculate that the man executed struggled because he was attempting to resist breathing after the mask was applied. He struggled because he held his breath, not because there was anything inherently torturous about nitrogen aphixiation. It was that he was aware of what was happening and resisted.
That's it exactly. His struggles had nothing to do with the nitrogen -- which he requested, BTW.
For Incunabulum, CO2 is a bad choice for humans. It is specifically what causes the panic reflex in Humans, though other animals it may not. I don't know details beyond Humans there.
Nitrogen or helium don't cause the suffocation response, because the CO2 is allowed to escape the bloodstream, not build up.
High CO2 levels, aka hypercapnia, is what creates the feeling of suffocation. Allowing people to breathe it out and still have something to inhale–nitrogen (N2)–prevents the suffocation feeling. You just go to sleep. And then your heart and brain stop working. And you die.
As for “the most popular drug cocktail is known to cause searing, burning pain before killing inmates”, if it’s truly so, then it’s being done stupidly. The right order would be 1) administer propofol until sleep happens; 2) administer fentanyl until breathing stops and there’s no more heartbeat. Only pain is starting the IV.
But the best way to avoid the pain of execution is not to commit capital crimes.
Personal responsibility is white supremacy.
Not be adjacent to someone commiting capital crimes a year before the DA will be running for office.
Death penalty cases cost more because of the infinite appeals. So The DA will only seek a death penalty when he is running for office to appear tough on crime.
If your DA has just been reelected and you murder a school bus full of disabled kids you're probably going to get a plea deal down to some low end felony. Be the getaway driver for some idiot who murders the clerk during a robbery close to election season. They'll be looking to give you the chair.
As for “the most popular drug cocktail is known to cause searing, burning pain before killing inmates”, if it’s truly so, then it’s being done stupidly.
I suspect that is largely due to the same reason the nitrogen execution went poorly, the condemned knows what's happening and resists. It can be hard enough to get an IV in someone who wants an IV, near impossible for someone who doesn't. The burning likely results from the drug being injected into tissues, rather than the vein.
CO2 buildup is what causes the breathing reflex in any animal, not necessarily the panic reflex. Excess CO2 largely causes drowsiness and a slight euphoria and ultimately knocks people out. If it caused a panic reflex kids would be allowed to buy CO2 soda cartridge refills just anywhere but because they're stupid and can get high from snuffing CO2 but it doesn't and it only takes but a few breaths to pass out and if that's all you can breathe it's only a matter of time before winning the room temperature challenge.
I think your data on excess CO2 is badly sourced. We actually have a lot of data on the effects of varying levels of CO2 from research on and for submarines. Atmospheric concentration is about 400 ppm. It's innocuous until the concentration gets to tens of thousands ppm. At that point, you start to get anxiety and perceived breathlessness.
As you point out, it's part of the breathing reflex. A high concentration of CO2 tricks the body into thinking it's not exhaling enough so you breathe harder and harder trying to get the CO2 out. At no point that I'm aware of does it cause drowsiness or euphoria.
CO2 cartridge huffing has no psychoactive effect. The reported effects are placebo reactions by people who confuse CO2 cartridges with nitrous oxide cartridges (which can get you high - and sometimes dead).
Agree. TangoDelta has it very wrong.
Source is both SCUBA classroom work and an altitude chamber class (including the actual altitude chamber training), plus a lot of reading in the 30 years between then and now.
Maybe TangoDelta is thinking of CO -- Carbon Monoxide causes drowsiness, dullness, a slight headache, possible hallucinations or euphoria, then you're done for. Carbon Dioxide most definitely causes a panic response in humans.
TD is thinking of whippets. NO2 cartridges' used as the propellant for whipped cream.
Plus execution by helium would be hilarious, when prisoners spoke their last words or ranted about The System.
It was that he was aware of what was happening and resisted.
Probably like his murder victim.
His victim likely died a much more painful death, so I don’t have a whole lot of pity for these heinous, 1st degree murderers. The most fair way to execute a convicted murderer is to use the exact same method they used to kill their victim. Family members of the victim may join in the execution, if so desired.
Far better the victim be armed and kill the bad guy during the commission of the crime than trust government to find the right bad guy and inflict the punishment.
Reason isn’t intellectually honest about the death penalty, in addition to a whole host of other things.
Thousands of industrial accidents support Mickey Rat: Nobody struggles when they don't know they're breathing pure nitrogen. They just pass out, and then die peacefully.
"I speculate that the man executed struggled because he was attempting to resist breathing after the mask was applied. He struggled because he held his breath, not because there was anything inherently torturous about nitrogen aphixiation. It was that he was aware of what was happening and resisted."
Well, how would you avoid that? If we're trying to find a non-torturous method of execution, I think that we do need to take into account the criminal's survival instinct.
Ms. Camp can’t have even approached the notion of “research” before making that statement.
Inert gas hypoxia is no more painful than falling asleep. Fact.
And n2 creates a sence of euphoria
I've done hypoxia in an altitude chamber. I get... drunk. Drunk and stupid. Others got the giggles. Like every time they'd fart they'd giggle.
For me, I couldn't add the values of two playing cards and it was the most hilarious thing to me, like I knew I was drowsy and stupid but didn't care, and laughed at not being able to add 2 and 4 together. Someone slapped a mask on me and in 2 good breaths I was stone cold sober and lucid. Hypoxia is really weird, but it's not at all physically unpleasant.
CO2 (and CO) worked for the NAZIs.
Still not a good example to look at for inspiration.
"There is no gentle way to kill someone"
Now, Ms. Camp, plesse apply the logic of that conclusion to euthanasia.
“There is no gentle way to kill someone”
Except abortion?
But that’s just “clumps of cells”.
A parasitic trespasser
I felt the same way about my brother, all the way into his 40s.
Priceless. Made my day. Thank you.
Nice
Which coincidentally, accurately defines all multi cell life forms.
A clump of cells is a 'someone'?
I guess amputation would be wrong then too....
Then there is the rape and incest 'loophole' - who gets to decide if its rape or consensual?
Then there is the threat to the women's life 'loophole'. Who gets to decide how to calculate the risk to the mother vs. what level of risks is acceptable or not. 50/50.... 90/10? 10/90?
I'm going with the theory that prison officials who took the job, took the job because they wanted to torture people to death. Therefore any method you pick will be modified in unique and interesting ways to make it torture.
Like substituting the painkiller in the 3 drug cocktail with water. Oops, accident.
I'd go the other way... and say that those who took the job are another example of the march through the institutions. In this case the progressive's job is to botch executions to further the narrative of their anti-execution side. Its only a side benefit for them to see the torture they inflict.
>As it turns out, there's not really a gentle way to kill someone.
There are plenty of gentle ways to kill someone.
There aren't plenty of ways to make it easy on those watching the killing.
There is a difference. And, if we're going to do this (and we are, its not going to stop) then the focus should be on eliminating the suffering of the executee, not the witnesses.
I hear tales about a singer talking about "killing me softly with his song"
While nitrogen hypoxia is clearly a terrible way to die.
Is it clearly terrible, besides the whole dying part? I'm not for the state killing people but I'm also against keeping drugs cocktails out of reach from the prison system. And really hate that
I wonder how terribly Kenneth Eugene Smith’s victims died?
An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
"An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind."
Does it really? It seems like there are three relevant populations. 1)
People that have suffered criminal assault leading to the loss of their eyes. 2) People that have inflicted such assault. 3) Everyone else.
The first population is already blind. Their eyes were destroyed by the criminals. The second population would indeed be blinded by the state, in a true "eye for an eye" system. What about the third population? I fail to see how stern and truly frightening punishment of criminals blinds the people who don't commit the crimes.
Like most such slogans, "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind" seems to me to have very little logical or moral validity. I can only speculate as to the reasons that people repeat such stuff and seem to regard it as serious analysis.
Lets take the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Seems they are always justified in their killing.... Both sides!
"Lets take the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Seems they are always justified in their killing…. Both sides!"
And again, you see no difference between the hatred-driven violence of the Arabs and the defensive-minded violence of the Jews. To you, it's all just violence. It simply makes no difference to you that the Arabs (and their Iranian and other allies) want violence and death as an end in itself, whereas the Jews want peace, and only use violence reluctantly in defense of their lives and the lives of their children.
I'm sure this form of "analysis" makes you feel all good and righteous, but it's not actually morally, logically, or practically valid.
It's one of those statements like "be careful when hunting monsters that you don't become a monster yourself." Or "when plotting revenge dig two graves."
You don't litteraly turn into a vampire or literally get tossed into the grave next to the one the target of your revenge goes into.
The point of all of those is to make angry people step back and use their brains instead of their hearts. Striking out in anger because a bad thing happened may feel good in the short term but in the long term it kills a small part of what some would call your soul.
Say in anger the community strike out at a sex offender who raped and killed a local child. They hang him from a lamp pole and celebrate how their community is safer now. What happens when proof comes to light that the guy they killed was actually innocent and it was some other guy who did it? Does the community kill that guy too? What about the innocent guy hanging from a lamp pole?
The thing people keep avoiding in all this is what if you kill the wrong guy. Does his family now have a right to kill the people who killed their innocent relative? What if they get it wrong too?
When does the feuding stop?
Total bullshit, Emma. Just shut up about this topic if you can't cover it factually and honestly.
If those were the criteria, she's never cover anything. At least judging by her past articles on Reason.
I'd love for her to tell me again how males being conservative means they're going to be right wing racists and terrorists.
That's OK. They balance out the females who are liberals, and end up as emotional basket cases with record numbers of depression and anxiety attacks.
It's my belief that she's been assigned this topic.
That said, there are plenty of valid and legitimate libertarian arguments to be made against capital punishment (and many for it as well) without engaging in deception. If we're going to argue a topic, we should make those instead.
This has frequently been my complaint with Reason, especially on topics like this when I agree with the conclusion. The State should not be killing anyone because it’s immoral and because The State is too corrupt to be trusted in deciding when that morality should be set aside.
Unfortunately most people are emotional thinkers. They need to be reached through their feels. This article reaches the feels of an average person. After all, you can't reason a person out of an argument they weren't reasoned into.
We've spent several decades trying to reach people with well reasoned arguments and getting nowhere. Clearly we already have you on board, why do we need to work on you anymore?
What!? Democrats want to ban NO2 hypoxia? No! What a turnaround. What a shocker.
Can't you find a fire?
If you’re going to have the death penalty, go with the guillotine or a bullet to the back of the head. They may not be pretty, but if you’re concerned about suffering there are really no better options.
I'm old school. Bring back Old Sparky!
Forced Sokushinbutsu as the appeals go through.
Bullets are cheap and effective. Maybe we could start doing beheadings like Saudi Arabia, that looks like it's really quick and painless.
The foreplay is terrible, I'd guess. If you really want to eliminate all death row suffering, eliminate death row. The only other possibility is killing random people. Once you sentence anyone to any punishment, capital or otherwise, they're going to be unhappy.
Messy
Bullets are cheap, yes, but messy and not always effective. And not nearly as fast as Hollywood makes you think. A botched firing squad can be a pretty horrible way to go. Even if you don't have any sympathy for the convict, you should have some for the executioner(s).
Beheadings require an astonishing degree of training and skill to do properly. Without that skill, the executioner is as likely to strike the shoulder, collarbone or skull. Even if he strikes the right location, he may fail to swing hard enough to actually sever the neck. Statistically, beheadings are neither quick nor painless. This is all very well documented from the time in England when beheadings were common. This was so well known that people would actually tip their executioner in the hope of a more careful, cleaner stroke.
Im against the death penalty but the guillotine is arguably highly effective at beheading and the condemned loses consciousness is something like 1/100 second before they even notice any pain. If the public are too squeamish about it, then maybe they should rethink their love of state killing.
I would be cool with it. Especially if ic an be present to absorb the quickenings.
There's some interesting research that contradicts your "loses consciousness" claim. I've seen evidence suggesting that consciousness could remain for 7 to 30 seconds after a guillotining. Still, that is relatively short and, as you say, highly reliable.
How about we just tell hillary/the mic the person being executed is a whistleblower
Being drawn and quartered was no walk in the park, either.
"Bullets are cheap, yes, but messy and not always effective."
Hollow points by a firing squad of 6. Ask a good hunter how effective expanding bullets are.
You are missing the point. Effective when they hit, yes, but "always" depends on aim.
Look at the stories of would-be suicides who literally shoot themselves in the head and merely manage to give themselves lobotomies. Even with a firing squad, there are examples of botched executions - some accidental, some suspected to be intentionally cruel.
The cool part is the head my survive for another 8 seconds.... So when someone grabs the head, holds it up to the crowd and says "behold the head of a traitor (or whatever)" the eyes can still blink.
Good times!
"Alabama Discovers There Is No 'Humane' Way To Execute Someone"
Why not force them to read the Book of Mormon, which Mark Twain which correctly described as "chloroform in print"?
state-sponsored killing is wrong.
So we need toend state funding of abortion correct?
ya. do that first. or at least in the morning and the death penalty in the afternoon if it needs to be same-day
Yes. The state should have zero involvement in killing any human, whether 3rd trimester or 300th.
The state is always too corrupt to hold that sort of power.
Of course. The state shouldbt be funding anything except the Constitutional mandates. Killing citizens should not be an option for the state.
The main reason to get rid of the death penalty is that courts aren’t right 100% of the time.
Besides, there’s no way this suffering is accidental. If people who want to die can get a doctor to give them a few pills which will make them quietly drift off into oblivion, there’s no fucking excuse in the world why a prison doctor can’t slip a mickey to someone before they’re escorted to the fish bowl to die. But then the audience would be left without entertainment.
This.
It's not that some people don't deserve horrible torturous deaths, it's that cops, prosecutors and judges are too corrupt to trust.
Weren't jeff and sarc just arguing a few weeks back that the lawfare against the right was fine because juries aren't wrong?
You can see it here.
https://reason.com/2023/05/04/judge-dismisses-trump-lawsuit-against-the-new-york-times/?comments=true#comment-10047396
There have been too many cases of death row convicts being exonerated when a non-police lab reviews the evidence. I think at one time an was convicted of murder because of his hair sample, which turned out to be dog hair.
I would prefer 100 guilty men walk free than 1 innocent man be imprisoned. 1,000 guilty men should walk free before 1 innocent man is murdered by the state.
No, there are two reasons - one, in case the courts make a mistake (although if you get the death penalty you get an automatic review in some states..... not always if your just sentenced to life....)
The second is because WE, the people, want to remain better than the criminals. There is a reason the executioner/hangman is paid cash, often wears a hood/mask... He is doing our dirty work.
Emma/Reason continues to do no fact checking and vetting within the death penalty.
There is a well documented, 60 year history of nitrogen hypoxia deaths within industrial accidents and suicides, as well as non lethal experiemnts with nitrogen hypxoia and unconsciousness. showing quick and painless unconsciousness.
Nitrogen hypoxia has the same characteristics whether in suicides or executions, with the exception of the holding of breath for two minutes or so, while fighting against restraints, prior to 1-2 breaths of nitrogen gas, followed, very quickly by unconsciousness and soon thereatfer death.
Reason, clueless. Why?
Because clued in-ness is hard, and probably too affiliated with the white patriarchy.
We put dogs down in humane ways, do we not? My veterinary friends tell me it's essentially an overdose of sleeping medicine.
What am I missing here?
What you're missing is that this isn't about anyone's suffering. This is an excuse to shill for ending the death penalty cuz it gives the editor a sad.
Seriously, considering what heinous shenanigans you have to pull to rate a death penalty, the suffering of the convict is the least of my concerns. Usually they've inflicted plenty themselves.
Unless, of course, they didn’t actually commit the crime
This is where we lose conservatives. Deep down they can't conceive of the police and the courts making mistakes that put innocent men on Death Row. They are the kind who get on juries and don't wonder at all about guilt or innocence. They figure if the cop says guilty then the people is guilty. Nuff Said.
I have absolutely no problem with believing any of those things. On the other hand, how much of a doubt remains when 30 or so bodies have turned up in your basement?
In the last jury I served on, I was the closest thing in the room to a conservative. It was in the summer so all the school teachers had lost their excuse to keep deferring service which meant that the rest of the jury was died-in-the-wool progressives. And they were completely willing to believe everything the prosecutor said.
I agree with most of your opinions about the death penalty but your political attributions are wrong. Most jurors of both parties are blind, lazy and far too trusting of authority.
Leftists are happy to find white men guilty. They tend to not be so happy with more colorful crooks.
I've suffered the company of hard core conservatives and many don't even want a trial. They just want the cops to take the guy who was arrested out back and shoot them saving taxpayers the cost of a trial and incarceration. They make no distinctions between petty crooks and mass murderers. If the cops arrested the guy they must be guilty. Why waste time and money, just shoot the guy right away.
Your dog is probably in pretty good shape compared to most drug-addicted, obese prisoners with collapsed veins. Sticking a needle into the condemned’s vein can be harder than it looks.
But yeah, that’s really just an excuse. You wouldn’t blame an ER doctor for having to stick the patient multiple times to run an IV. That's the "horror" that stopped Smith's first execution attempt.
Thomas Creech got another reprieve over that last month. That fucker killed my great uncle back in the 70 ‘s and has been on death row for 40 years.
If there is no humane way to end the life of a death-row inmate, then how can there be a humane way for SPCA to end the life of an animal? And if there is such, why can't that same method be used on a human? Current progressive thinking is that people should be allowed to choose euthanasia and one can find YouTube videos of those choosing it who drift into what appears to be a deep, pleasant sleep. Granted, nobody who is alive really knows what that last moment of life is like, perhaps it's excruciating torment that facial expressions don't reveal, but assuming it isn't, why not use one of those methods on death row inmates? I don't support the death penalty, not because of its so-called inherent cruelty, but because of the inability to undo errors in applying it.
Unless the vet uses a hypodermic, cats and dogs neither know the vet is going to kill them, nor when the air flow or intravenous feed is switched. Maybe what we ought to do is to keep the execution date secret and poison their meal with fentanyl one day without changing anything in the daily routine.
Or use another well-established animal execution method: pop them in the forehead with a captive bolt gun, then just in case they're only stunned, cut their throat deeply enough to sever all the major arteries and veins.
There, as you know, many, many, "humane" ways of killing somebody. You're just being dishonest. Most people who aren't executed by the state will have far, far more painful deaths than any executed inmate. Yes, we'll all die someday, but the worst murderers in the country will get anesthesia for their deaths.
There is no "humane" way to kill someone. That having been said, it changes nothing about the death penalty itself. There are two and only two issues concerning the death penalty: are there some criminals so incorrigible and some crimes so heinous that at least some criminals should be killed? And: can the government ever be trusted to convict the guilty and execute the correct culprits?
Nitrogen asphyxiation is neither controversial nor inhumane. Emma's rant was thoroughly debunked the last time this came around. Smith "struggled against his restraints" and "shook and writhed on a gurney" because he was holding his breath. His struggles had nothing to do with the means of execution. Once he stopped holding his breath, his death was quick and painless. By Emma's tortured logic, wrestling with the guards as they try to take you out of the cell will now count as "inhumane". Just stop it.
I do agree that we should abolish the death penalty but I say that because I don't trust government to administer it fairly, not because the means are "inhumane". Frankly, anything equal to or less than the pain and suffering caused by the criminal counts as "humane" in my book. Torture someone to death? Being tortured in your turn is fair game.
Little Emma is hard at work establishing her Nona codes as another Reasons staff idiot in the tradition of Sullum, Boehm, etc..
I still wish we could impose lifetime exile. Maybe Escape From New York style. The city seems to be on that path anyway.
Well if there is no humane way to kill someone, then it doesn't matter how they are executed.
We now only give the death penalty to those that commit very heinous crimes resulting in the death of the victim. There is nothing inhumane about putting down a rabid dog, by any means available.
Incorrect, its quite easy with medicine. Get IV access, and give them megadoses of barbiturates, opioids, and potassium. They die from a mix of respiratory and cardiac arrest. Its actually extremely simple, and the person feels like they went for a nice nap.
Even without medicine or IV access it's quite easy. Lots of cops have executed suspects this way! All you have to do is handcuff them, put them in the prone position while kneeling on their back or neck and hold that position until they stop protesting that they can't breathe, and then for another three or four minutes after you can't find their pulse anymore. Any cop can do it.
There's no pretty way to forcibly end a human life is what the article should say. That however would bypass her point entirely so the lie comes out instead.
you'd have to be a goddamn idiot to think there's no clean painless way to kill someone. Drug addicts to it to themselves every day.
What drug addicts do to themselves may or may not be painless - it's probably not but they can't do anything about it by then. But it's definitely not "clean".
Toxicology 101: the dose makes the poison. I can't imagine why death-penalty states haven't tried using fentanyl, given the constant reminders from DEA et al. about that drug's rapid lethality even in minuscule doses or mixed with other stuff. Not to mention the fentanyl analogues said to be many times more lethal than the original. It's not even necessary to give the drug by IV--rectal suppositories would probably work if they could deliver a large enough dose rapidly enough. IM injections would also probably work in a similar fashion. Fentanyl could also be used in standard pre-op fashion so the prisoner would be more or less too blissed out (try some if you don't believe that) to feel the nasty side effects of whatever lethal injection cocktail the executioners choose to try next.
Personally, my own choice would be one IV line draining my blood and another one delivering a solution of pure mescaline or mescaline HCl (I think it's water-soluble but maybe not). I might actually volunteer to try that out for the FDA.
Fentanyl worked for George Floyd.
Instead of searching for gentle execution methods, states should just stop killing prisoners.
I submit they should acknowledge that any crime worthy of the death sentence FORFEITS the right to a "humane" death. States should not seek to inflict unnecessary pain when executing someone, but shouldn't be very concerned if pain happens in the process. A firing squad with a least 6 shots to the head essentially guarantees that even in the case of multiple misfires, the condemned dies quickly.
First off, the N2 execution should have been a chamber slowly filled with nitrogen, not a mask. Then the prisoner would never even know - same way people die in industrial enclosed spaces with lack of oxygen - they get dizzy, they pass out, they die. They didn't use a mask for Cyanide for the old Gas Chamber, did they.
Second, there is most certainly a painless way to die, as people are dying this way every fucking day - thanks to the war on drugs: Fentanyl - they get high, they pass out, they die. Is this so difficult for states to figure out?!!
Until I read about the protocol to be used in this case, I had assumed that would utilize a chamber and was surprised it was via mask. The mask is easier in some ways and requires far less N2 (but N2 is pretty cheap - if there's a Costco tire center nearby there's even a ready supply - or so they claim, perhaps the "green valve caps" are just a show!)
However, even with the mask, the process could start with ordinary air and then switch to nitrogen - making sure that both are the same temperature and humidity (and perhaps add some scent to both to mask any "smell" differences between the two). When the N2 started would be unknown to the criminal but would be visible to witnesses through some sort of display. The length of delay of switching to N2 could be random and unknown to anyone in advance - perhaps a value between 5 and 20 minutes. The criminal would have no idea when to start acting or holding their breath and it would be clear after a couple executions that there was no distress caused by the actual N2 because the acting up started too early or never happened.
An upside would be that the criminal would also have the experience, like many of their victims, of knowing death was imminent but not knowing exactly when. It would also give the criminal a last chance to contemplate their actions and get square with whatever god, if any, they worship. Seems fair.
I like your random-delay protocol. That would add a lot of stability to the process.
N2 is very cheap, by the way. You can buy your own liquid nitrogen generator for as little as $30,000 and distill as much as you like from the air around you. Or you could just buy 40 liters for about $20. With an expansion coefficient of 696 to 1, that would about fill a 10x10x10 room.
One last aside - the criminal already has the experience of knowing death is imminent but not knowing when. That's the days leading up to the execution while they're on death row. That knowing is arguably more inhumane than the actual method of execution. But yes, we hope they will use the time to get square with their god.
That's weird, because my vet is pretty good at it. I've had 4 cats euthanized in the past 20 years, and only one of them seemed to experience any kind of discomfort at all, and that was from the painkiller shot they gave it first.
Use any medical anesthetic to render the guilty bastard unconscious, then slit his throat.
He will bleed out in blissful ignorance, and the sissy witnesses can be shielded from view of the flow.
Being sure he IS the guilty bastard is the real issue, isn't it?
If we had a 100% fail proof method of determining guilt of specific crimes then this Death Penalty thing would be less of an issue. But we don't have anywhere near 100% fail proof. We don't even have a 50% fail proof system.
Asking 12 people too stupid to get out of jury duty to decide if a guy lives or dies based on what the cops claim is insanity.
Wrong. There are MANY cases in which it is dead certain that the accused is guilty.
Mass shooters. I generally oppose the death penalty because of the possibility of executing an innocent. But, in the case of a mass shooting where the perp is caught "red-handed" in the act, there's no doubt of guilt. So, I support it in the case of mass murder, also because of the magnitude of the crime.
Most mass shooters kill themselves or at least give it a try. In that case isn't killing them doing what they wanted all along? Isn't still punishment if they want it?
And you trust governments to be the ones to determine when they are 100% certain.
Sorry, no. Given the possibility of a corrupt cop or prosecutor, there are NO cases where it is "dead certain" that the accused is guilty. Your certainty is dependent on the evidence that you are presented. When you acknowledge that the evidence itself may be false, you can never achieve perfect certainty.
Too bad the pastor committed suicide.
He deserved crucifixion.
always goinf for the laugh, shameful
What I find so crazy is that we have the entire medical profession of anesthesiology dedicated to NOT killing people with medicines because it's so easy. We have doctors advocating for euthanasia by extolling about how quick and dignified it is.
We have strict safety measures in heavy industry and still we lose people every year because someone sticks their head in a nitrogen-filled vessel and passes out almost immediately.
And yet, when it's applied to murderers who have been convicted six ways from Sunday, these same instant painless deaths are no better than being drawn and quartered.
Don't lie. It's not becoming. If you want me to subscribe to your site in order to keep commenting, respect me enough to give an honest argument.
Government should not hold the power of life and death. It is way too much power.
Now that is an argument I can respect.
However, I don't think it's correct.
After all, the most fundamental power of the government is to wage war. To use our funds, our effort, and even draft our sons to kill and destroy those who threaten our country.
They already have the power of life and death in order to enact this most fundamental of powers.
While "war on crime" conjures some concerning police actions, it's not a poor comparison. The death penalty certainly has more in common with war than abortion.
So while I can respect your argument, I cannot agree with the government being fundamentally wrong in killing.
The draft is no part of the power of the government to wage war. Conscripts were only 2% of the Union Army during the Civil War, and it wasn't until the Conscription Act of 1917 that the Supreme Court created the Constitutional authority of the Federal government.
"I cannot agree with the government being fundamentally wrong in killing."
Although I agree with you that it is not wrong in principle for the government to execute criminals, the question remains whether the government can be trusted to kill the right culprits with the current criminal justice system.
Although I agree with you that it is not wrong in principle for the government to execute criminals, the question remains whether the government can be trusted to kill the right culprits with the current criminal justice system.
And/or more critically, "Does removing the ability to kill the right/wrong culprits fix what is broken?"
A big part of the problem is that we let arsonists and shoplifters go and prosecute real estate moguls on political whim. If the problem is that the system fundamentally can't distinguish innocent/guilty or right from wrong taking away the ability to kill doesn't necessarily fix it and even offers an excuse to perpetuate or exacerbate it's miasma.
The last line of 1984 isn't "The long-hoped-for bullet was entering his brain." it is "He loved Big Brother."
In the case of a war there are hundreds of thousands of guys in the same uniform waving specific flags trying to kill you. The reaction is one of self defense at a national level.
To kill someone who has supposedly done evil things who is now under your power is very different. First off, what if the government fucked up and has the wrong guy? That's my biggest problem with the death penalty to be honest. But beyond that the question is what do we do with these probably guilty people?
Why do we have prisons? Does storing a first or second time petty crook with more skilled and experienced crooks make sense? Are we expecting them to improve into useful citizens during incarceration? If yes, why saddle them with a conviction label after they are done with their time that will stop them from getting good jobs? If no, why are we bothering locking them up in the first place? It costs a lot and when they get out they won't be able to get a good job. Why not after convicting them just turn them lose with a big F tattooed to their forehead?
If killing a criminal is acceptable Why not kill all of them? We clearly don't expect the prison system to change them. Why spend all that money on storage if their is a moral case for killing them? Why stop with a certain level of criminal? If you are able to accept innocents being executed because of a bad conviction then why worry about it on lesser charges?
This all goes to the basics of our criminal justice system. What is our plan? Why do we do any of the things we do as a culture? Is it simply cultural inertia? In mideval times we tossed them in prisons so it's our tradition. It doesn't have to make sense. Is it as irrational as cutting a thieves' hand off or whipping small time offenders?
I'm not saying it's identical. I'm saying that the right and power to choose life and death for our citizens is an existing and necessary power of the government.
Additionally, I find that there is no meaningful difference between life without parole and the death penalty. You are taking their entire life away. One way just takes longer.
In the end, I actually agree with you. It's an unwise policy because of the mistakes that have been made and a pointless one because the sheer cost of these trials and there being no actual benefit to enacting it.
However, I cannot stand when people lie or use faulty reasoning.
Just because our government has the power to go to war you extend that to our government having the power of life and death over every citizen. You would willingly allow Joe Biden that level of power?
If government has power over life and death for the citizenry then we're does their power stop? Seems one could justify almost any kind of powers under that very wide umbrella. Why bother with a constitution and bill of rights If the government can just say, "we find you to be icky in our sight and yea verily we send an agent forth to shoot you in the back of the head."
Don’t lie. It’s not becoming.
The problem is, it is becoming. It’s why they do it. You can’t argue against them because they’re arguing against killing people and are, thereby, inherently correct.
Who cares if their policies cost more innocent people’s lives and incomes, keeps more prisoners incarcerated longer, gets more people killed extrajudicially inside prisons, and generally corrodes the notions of crime and punishment so that even more trivial crimes get punished as bad or worse than multiple homicide? The point is that they’ve got good intentions and you’re wrong because you don’t have good intentions.
Funny how when you scratch a Death Penalty advocate you most often find an anti-abortion anti-euthanasia advocate.
No killing the potential offspring of a single teenage mom with zero prospects but when her kid starts committing crimes THEN we can kill him, unless he has a disease that makes him suffer excruciating pain.
What is wrong with euthanizing sex offenders?
Only problem I see is where you draw the line. Child rapists? Sure. Some drunk chick in their 20's who decided to pee in the alley behind a bar at Mardi Gras and gets cited? Not so much.
You take a sane comment and use it to highlight your insensitivity and coldness.
Certain sex offences need the threat of death or they will continue, it is quite simple for a parent to see.
But where does callousness like yours come from, o libertarian ,who cares about the freedomof everybody ....
"The 53-year-old libertarian, who is known to be anti-abortion but has not publicly spoken about the issue at length since taking office, was addressing young people at a Catholic school in Buenos Aires where he had studied.
"I warn you that to me abortion is murder ... and I can prove it to you from a mathematical, philosophical and liberal perspective," he said in a speech two days before International Women's Day.
Milei said those who backed the legalization of abortion in Argentina were "murderers.""
“You take a sane comment and use it to highlight your insensitivity and coldness.”
Euthanizing sex offenders is not sane and not just. Death penalty for indecent exposure? Death is only justified where a life has been taken. It’s not insensitivity nor coldness, rather cold hard logic – an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life. In the case of forcible child rape, life in prison without possibility of parole is justified. A child rapist wouldn’t stand much of a chance among the mainline prison population, anyway. Minadin said sure death penalty for child rape.
“Certain sex offences need the threat of death or they will continue, ..."
There’s death penalty for murder, yet murder still continues. The death penalty could be imposed to discourage assault or robbery, but it would not be just unless a life was taken.
"it is quite simple for a parent to see.”
It is not easy for a parent to see. People get overprotective of their kids and get paranoid. Unless a life is taken, the death penalty is not logically justified. There are plenty of punishments short of death, like life in prison without possibility of parole.
“But where does callousness like yours come from, o libertarian ,who cares about the freedomof everybody.”
There’s no callousness. Where’s the callousness? Logic may be cold, but it’s right. Freedom means punishments fit the crime. Death is not justified unless a life has been taken. An eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, a life for a life.
Let's talk about the really serious kiddy pokers, the ones you first think of when sex offender gets tossed around.
A kiddy poker has, for whatever reasons, sees kids as attractive and the targets for their lists. Just like some gentlemen prefer blondes and other gingers or gay men prefer men the kiddy poker is simply following their sex drive.
If, for whatever reason, your preferred type of partner was made illegal and you would be threatened with death for mating with them would it stop you? Would you give up sex forever just because it would get you killed if you were caught?
Because you are never 100% certain that they are guilty. You may just euthanize an actual innocent person. How many innocent people are you willing to kill in order to euthanize sex offenders?
As I disussed earlier, the death penalty isn't comparable to abortion. It's closer to war.
If you accept that Abortion is killing a child, then that child is nothing more than an inconvenience.
It's the difference between war and murder. This is an extremely basic and unquestionable moral difference that is willfully ignored by people claiming a false equivalence.
Euthanasia is more complicated depending how it's prescribed, but there have been headlines about people in their 30s being prescribed it for depression, or even people being pushed into it for easily treatable mental conditions. These may be rare, but they do happen.
There are millions of people whom have gone under for surgery. They didn't writhe in agony. I doubt the issue is technical and I wonder if the pain and agony is inflicted on purpose - or opponents of the death penalty revel in sensational horseshit.
Yeah, but the people under anesthetic expect to wake up after the surgery. The guy on death row knows he isn't going to wake up. That makes a huge difference. The very process leading up to the execution is inhumane. The final method is irrelevant.
We may as well give the guy a wooden sword and have four guards go after him with a variety of deadly melee weapons. Or if we want to give it some religious significance give him a real sword and have him fight only two guards. If he wins he is set free because clearly gawd favored him so he must be innocent.
No,look at things :It is just a "look over here, not there' way of letting abortion flourish
The president of Argentina, Javier Milei, says abortion “is murder aggravated by the bond” between mother and child and condemned the so-called “voluntary interruption of pregnancy,” a euphemism for killing the child in the womb
People who go under for surgery have the drugs administered by a doctor specializing in anesthesia - a professional who passed one of the most difficult college undergraduate programs, followed by several years of additional education and training, including both general medical practice and job-specific training. But most medical professionals are entirely unwilling to use their skills in an executions, and their professional organizations also ban them from doing so. So people being executed by drugs have the drugs administered by a prison guard. The skills to do it effectively and painlessly are lacking.
OTOH, there's also the factor that a surgery patient is usually cooperative and does not expect to die from the anesthesia. Someone being executed has no reason to cooperate, and every reason to panic. And that can turn even a perfectly painless execution method into an ugly spectacle.
"Completely untested" is an oversimplification. The veterinary medicine association approves it for euthanasia in some species but not in others and (feel free to check me) I think I read that the EU has nitrogen asphyxia as the only legal way to slaughter chickens.
Industrial accidents can be considered anecdotal but accounts from people who've been revived are consistent. They felt nothing wrong when they lost consciousness.
I suspect the difference is in the knowing it is going to happen. An animal is totally unaware that the visit to the vet is any different than all the others. Victims of an industrial accident are, by the definition of accident, unaware they were about to be accidentally euthanized.
A guy on death row knows it is eventually coming. They know the appeals and letters to the governor are unlikely to save them in the end. So when you strap the man to the gurney and put on the mask he knows this is not just another trip to the dentist. It doesn't matter the method, he knows it's coming. He will fight it because he is a human being capable of imagining what death will be like.
The inhumanity is inherent in the process. To be humane it needs to be a surprise. Poison a meal, shoot him when he is playing basketball, kill him while he is getting dental work done. Then it may be humane. But it won't have the illusion of justice being done like the fanfare of the last meal, the visit by the priest, the march to the killing chamber and the impersonal sanitized process of setting him up.
The question is what is the purpose of a death penalty? To rid us of a monster or to strike fear into the hearts of potential monsters?
The purpose of the death penalty? What you mentioned and, ideally, justice. If a person initiates force and deliberately murders another, on what logical basis can that person complain that retaliatory force is being used to snuff out his or her own life, if he or she has done the same to another or others? It's the Reflexive Property of logic: if A = B then B=A. If putting the perp to death brings the survivors of the victim (or people in society in general) vengeful satisfaction, so be it, they have a right to it if it'll make them feel better (and even if it won't). There's no logical basis upon which the accurately condemned can protest. If the condemned doesn't like the ordeal of waiting for his or her date with death, then the condemned could have avoided it by not deliberately causing the death of another.
I have generally opposed the death penalty not because the murderer has any right to live but because I do not trust the government and my fellow human beings to administer it justly and accurately. Better that 100,000 murderers get life in prison without possibility of parole than execute one innocent person.
I'd far prefer the potential victim be armed and shoot the fucker at the time of the crime. It takes care of so much trouble with the justice system.
It automatically takes the victims attitude into account. Don't think violent criminals should be killed. Don't carry a gun. Think the fucker needs to die. Carry a gun and train with it.
O, the hyprocrisy of Reason and Libertarians as represented in these forums.
Even today, this very morning I see
Argentine President Milei: Abortion is aggravated homicide
So stop the mushy bullshit about the poor mass murderer and think about babies at 9 months with their limbs pulled apart
Strawman. You're obsessed with abortion. How many abortions take place at 9 months? Very few, if any at all. Very few people support abortion at 9 months. I don't. A fertilized egg, a zygote, and an embryo are much less developed than lower animals which are euthanized by the hundreds of millions. A fertilized egg is a zygote not a child, and an embryo is an embryo not a child. A child is a breathing person, more than a fertilized egg.
Instead of searching for gentle execution methods, states should just stop killing prisoners.
Instead of pretending to be libertarian or even a citizen of a federated democracy, Emma should just admit that she's just like any other statist with the best of intentions.
Maybe a little dumber depending on whether you believe her pollyanna-esque moral ideology around "Nobody should die ever." to be more or less naive and/or contrived than "The Earth is 6,000 yrs. old and God put the dinosaur bones there to trick us."
Counterpoint: after conviction and one appeal, frog march them to the courthouse lawn and put two bullets in the back of their head. Cheaper and more efficient. Probably get any number of people who will do it for free or maybe food and travel expenses.
How many innocents are you willing to kill with this method?
It is so amazing how fervently you trust law enforcement when it's going after someone you despise, but loathe it as a base fount of venality and corruption when you're arguing against the death penalty --or that criminals be let roam free.
But there is a well researched humane way to kill people.
Heroin overdose.
It's actually enjoyable. Does not require an injection, just drink this glass of flavored sweet beverage. [I don't know why a person should not be allowed to do it in the privacy of his/her own cell, on camera of course.]
I am still opposed to the death penalty, but let's quit lying - killing yourself, or someone else, is easy, with heroin.