Frozen Embryos Are Now Children Under Alabama Law
State Supreme Court Chief Justice Tom Parker cited the Bible to explain why.

Frozen embryos are "children" under Alabama law, the state's Supreme Court says. Its decision could have major implications for the future of fertility treatments in the state.
Frozen embryos are "unborn children" and "unborn children are 'children,'" Justice Jay Mitchell wrote in the court's main opinion. Only two of nine justices dissented from the holding that an 1872 wrongful death statute applies to the destruction of frozen embryos.
The ruling seems to represent a turn toward judicial activism among members of Alabama's Supreme Court, which for a long time held that the law's text could not justify reading it to include "unborn children"—let alone frozen embryos.
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It also portends a creeping Christian conservatism into court decisions, with Alabama Supreme Court Justice Tom Parker citing the Bible in his legal reasoning. In a concurring opinion, Parker justifies prohibitions on murder not by invoking classical liberal principles, like natural rights, but rather on the basis of "Man's creation in God's image" and the "you shall not murder" edict of the Sixth Commandment. "Human life cannot be wrongfully destroyed without incurring the wrath of a holy God, who views the destruction of His image as an affront to Himself," Parker writes.
Embryos Destroyed
The decision stems from suits brought by former patients of the Center for Reproductive Medicine in Mobile, Alabama. These patients—couples James and Emily LePage, William and Caroline Fonde, and Felicia Burdick-Aysenne and Scott Aysenne—had used in vitro fertilization (IVF) to successfully have several children and still had some embryos stored in the Center's "cryogenic nursery." In December 2020, a patient at the Mobile Infirmary Medical Center (which the Center was a part of) entered the cryogenic nursery unauthorized and proceeded to remove and then drop some of their frozen embryos, destroying them.
The couples sued the fertility clinic and the hospital, citing Alabama's Wrongful Death of a Minor Act. This 1872 law lets parents sue for monetary damages "when the death of a minor child is caused by the wrongful act, omission, or negligence of any person."
The LePages and the Fondes brought a joint lawsuit, and a separate suit was filed by the Aysennes. Both suits alleged negligence and the Aysenne suit also alleged wantonness and breach-of-contract.
A trial court granted the Center's motion to dismiss all but the breach-of-contract claim. "The cryopreserved, in vitro embryos involved in this case do not fit within the definition of a 'person'" or "'child,'" the lower court held.
The three couples appealed, and their suits were consolidated for Supreme Court purposes.
No Exceptions for "Extrauterine Children"
In a first-of-its-kind decision, the Alabama Supreme Court decided that frozen embryos are, indeed, children, rejecting the lower court's dismissal of the couples' wrongful death claims.
In the court's main opinion, Justice Jay Mitchell referred to frozen embryos in turn as "embryonic children" and "extrauterine children."
While the state's Wrongful Death of a Minor statute doesn't explicitly include "unborn children"—let alone "extrauterine children"—in its purview, "the ordinary meaning of 'child' includes children who have not yet been born," asserted Mitchell.
Furthermore, Alabama's Supreme Court "has long held that unborn children are 'children' for purposes of Alabama's that law," he wrote. The central question in this case, said Mitchell, is "whether the Act contains an unwritten exception to that rule for extrauterine children—that is, unborn children who are located outside of a biological uterus at the time they are killed."
The couples in this case raised some truly ridiculous arguments for why such an "exception" shouldn't exist. They argued that a finding that the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act doesn't apply to unborn children (including frozen embryos) would mean partial-birth abortions are legal, since the baby would no longer be in utero but would also not be fully born. They also suggested it would OK murdering hypothetical toddlers entirely gestated in artificial wombs, since such children—no matter how old they got—would not technically have been born.
Amazingly, the majority lent credence to these crazy arguments. They are "weighty concerns," wrote Mitchell, albeit ones that needn't be resolved at this time since "neither the text of the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act nor this Court's precedents exclude extrauterine children from the Act's coverage."
Dissent, Dissent, Dissent
Not all of the justices agreed with the majority's logic, and some offered quite scathing rebukes of it.
For instance, Justice Brady E. Mendheim—who concurred with the result of the main opinion but disagreed with some of its reasoning—doesn't think that it's so clear cut that "child" includes frozen embryos. For one thing, the wrongful death statute in question was written a century before IVF was even a scientific possibility. Furthermore, other parts of Alabama law, including the 2019 Human Life Protection Act, explicitly define an unborn child as a human being in utero.
Justice Will Sellers also rejected the idea that this is an easy and obvious call. "Any sequence of linguistic gymnastics, cannot yield the conclusion that embryos developed through in vitro fertilization were intended by the legislature to be included in the definition of 'person,' much less the definition of 'minor child,'" he wrote. Rather, the inclusion of in utero children in certain statutes was there to allow for punishment of violence perpetrated against pregnant women. "To equate an embryo stored in a specialized freezer with a fetus inside of a mother is engaging in an exercise of result-oriented, intellectual sophistry, which I am unwilling to entertain," Sellers added.
Meanwhile, Justice Greg Cook—who dissented in full from the main opinion—rejects the idea that the 1872 law meant to include fetuses and zygotes in its definition of children, even when they are in utero.
The main opinion suggested that the "leading dictionary of that time defined the word 'child' as 'the immediate progeny of parents' and indicated that this term encompassed children in the womb," notes Cook. But if you look at the full entry in the cited dictionary, it indicates the opposite, saying "the term is applied to infants from their birth."
Furthermore, interpreting the Wrongful Death Act to include unborn children is a recent phenomenon. "There is no doubt that the common law [in 1872] did not consider an unborn infant to be a child capable of being killed for the purpose of civil liability or criminal-homicide liability," wrote Cook. "In fact, for 100 years after the passage of the Wrongful Death Act, our caselaw did not allow a claim for the death of an unborn infant, confirming that the common law in 1872 did not recognize that an unborn infant (much less a frozen embryo) was a 'minor child' who could be killed."
Thus, applying the wrongful death act to the loss of frozen embryos runs counter to the philosophy of originalism (the idea, common among libertarians and conservatives, that laws should be interpreted only as they were originally intended) and closer to the progressive idea of a malleable "living Constitution," suggests Cook. And he's not a fan. "It is not our role to expand the reach of a statute and "breathe life" into it by updating or amending it," Cook writes. If the legislature thinks the law needs expanding, it can do so.
Cook and Mendheim both object to characterizing the defense's position as seeking an "exception" for frozen embryos, because to declare it an exception to the state's protection of minor children assumes that embryos are minor children—a point that's far from a given. And they both pan the tacit acceptance of the out-there hypotheticals offered by the patients.
"The main opinion ignores the fact that it is not now—or for the foreseeable future—scientifically possible to develop a child in an artificial womb so that such a scenario could somehow unfold," writes Mendheim. Should that become possible, "the answer to this futuristic hypothetical is simple," writes Cook: "the Legislature can address future technologies and can do so far better than this Court."
Bibles and Broad Reach
Pointing out that no other state has interpreted wrongful death laws this way—and a number have specifically rejected it—Cook suggests that being "the sole outlier" should "cause us to carefully reexamine our conclusions."
He concludes the decision could end IVF in Alabama, since "no rational medical provider would continue to provide services for creating and maintaining frozen embryos knowing that they must continue to maintain such frozen embryos forever or risk the penalty of a Wrongful Death Act claim for punitive damages."
This fear was echoed by the defendants in this case, who told the court a finding that the statute includes frozen embryos could make IVF prohibitively expensive.
Barbara Collura, president and CEO of RESOLVE: The National Infertility Association, called the court's decision "terrifying" for people "who need in-vitro fertilization to build their families."
Chief Justice Parker's opinion suggests that their fears are not unfounded.
His opinion is chilling in the way is showcases the theocratic underpinnings on which he sees Alabama governance resting. Pointing to a 2018 amendment declaring it "the public policy of this state to recognize and support the sanctity of unborn life," he notes that the term sanctity can be defined as "holiness of life and character," godliness, and "the quality or state of being holy or sacred." He goes on to cite the King James Bible, noting that in Genesis man's creation was described as being "in the image of God." Its on these foundations that the legal treatment of frozen embryos should rest, he suggests.
According to Parker, this would not mean the end of IVF in Alabama. But it could mean changes that would seriously upend the IVF process.
In IVF, the process of preparing the body for ovulation and harvesting eggs can be extremely taxing on women's bodies, as well as time-consuming and expensive. After this, not all of the eggs collected may be successfully fertilized. And when viable embryos are created, it may take multiple tries at transferring one into a woman's body before implantation is successful. For all of these reasons, it makes sense for doctors to collect myriad eggs at one time, fertilize these eggs, and then freeze the viable embryos for later transfer, rather than harvesting eggs and creating a single new embryo for each transfer. (This also helps people who may want to create embryos when they are younger to use when they are somewhat older, or who may face illness that will impede their future fertility.) And to maximize the chances of success, doctors sometimes transfer two or more embryos at once.
Treating embryos as having the full legal rights of children could imperil all of these practices.
In Italy, "cryopreservation of embryos" is banned "except when a bona fide health risk or force majeure prevented the embryos from being transferred immediately after their creation," writes Parker. He also points approvingly to countries with other stringent regulations, such as a rule limiting the number of embryos that can be transferred at a time.
"These regulations adopted by other countries seem much more likely to comport with upholding the sanctity of life," Parker concludes, writing that "certain changes to the IVF industry's current creation and handling of embryos in Alabama will result from this decision."
Even if the ruling doesn't end IVF in Alabama, it could pave the way for changes that make fertility treatments more difficult, time-consuming, expensive, and impractical.
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In a concurring opinion, Parker justifies prohibitions on murder not by invoking classical liberal principles, like natural rights, but rather on the basis of "Man's creation in God's image" and the "you shall not murder" edict of the Sixth Commandment.
Oh come on, you're being too hard on them. We all know that Jesus wrote the Constitution, so really, invoking the Bible as a matter of law is totally okay.
The Roman empire first noticed death-seeking Christian fanatics in Turkey in 110 A.D. It took 77 years for the retroactive invention of yet another God-myth to inspire primitive mystics into the adoration of sacrificial death. In the intervening 1914 years those duped by the legend have brought Inquisitions, genocidal wars and prohibitionist wars on all manner of rights. The speeches Hitler made to Germans cornered by League of Nations regulators and collectors literally pullulate with biblical aphorisms, apothegms and clichés. So is this a standard of moral value?
That radical Christian zealot who wrote that all men "are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life,...", must have been out of his mind, right?
you don't get the "their" part of that, do you? "their" creator, not "The" creator..... whatever "they" see that as..... not "this one definition from this one book from one particular religion."
also, that was from a declaration, not anything holding any legal authority.
It was about the philosophical basis of the notion that humans have rights.
We have all the rights we can hang onto. If an army of ATF, FBI, IRS, DOE, CDC, ETC... show up at your door to take your house, car, computer, canned food, guns, sex toys, beer and your significant other you can't stop them. If the majority of Americans support the Alphabet soup doing that a jury trial won't even help you. Your god won't send angels, demons, unicorns or magical badgers to stop them.
The only thing that will stop them is your neighbors, friends and family opening fire on those government types and killing every one to send the message to Biden that he needs to send fighter jets to carpet bomb your home and all the homes around yours.
Then owning a stinger missile stops seeming like an extremist view on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
"their Creator" is deliberately vague and does not refer specifically to the Judeo-Christian God, or even any spiritual being at all.
Well, it's internally consistent. However, we are getting to a point that it's effectively a retroactive law, since practices like freezing embryos are normal.
This really should go through the legislature, not the courts.
Unelected court appointees are what the Christian National Socialist half of the Kleptocracy now control. The party that has LOST the popular vote in every recent election (except when Waffen goaded religious terrorists into the 9/11 attacks) want their handpicked judges to rule as dictators for life, just as Christian National Socialist Germany was ruled by militarists and judges after the 1933 dictatorship Enabling Act. Enslavement of Jewish men and women alike was instituted in most German corporations until May of 1945. Nazi abortion laws gagging doctors were only repealed in Germany after Trump's defeat!
Justices on the Alabama supreme court are elected.
Well now it becomes clearer why they pander to the electorate
Thank you. That was one of the first questions that jumped to mind as I read the article.
I think the question of elected vs appointed judges is a complicated one with good arguments on both sides. My experience having lived in jurisdictions using both approaches is that appointed judges are marginally less bad.
This really should go through the legislature, not the courts.
Disagree. See below. This is the same bullshit where ENB will play retard and retardedly drag people through again and, if dragged through the legislature, wind up, one way or the other, writing religion into law.
The idea that "no rational medical provider would continue to provide services for creating and maintaining frozen embryos knowing that they must continue to maintain such frozen embryos forever" is retarded. Retarded to the point that I have trouble believing any of them do this and almost certainly . Retarded that even if they do do this, I'm dubious that "in perpetuity" is contractually enforceable under AL law.
"Or risk the penalty of a Wrongful Death Act claim for punitive damages." and carry insurance like any hospital, daycare, pediatrician, etc., etc. would?
Maybe there's a case to be had, if as indicated, that "in perpetuity" with regard to embryos should be clarified as less than some long span of human life or whatever, but that's almost certainly not what ENB is disingenuously arguing here.
Here's the problem. It's for all intents and purposes retroactive.
The level of insurance and secondary protection necessary for important and valuable lab samples that you dispose of on a preordered schedule is orders of magnitude below several-hundred children on indefinite life support. Yes there are people who would be willing to do so, but my biggest concern are the people already in that situation.
It’s for all intents and purposes retroactive.
You’re falling for ENB’s retardation. Read the article. Someone broke in and destroyed some embryos. Potentially/effectively rendering these women sterile. The customers are suing because they feel the clinic didn't sufficiently safeguard their embryos and/or remunerate them for the loss.
Unless there was a previous break in and destruction somewhere else, it’s only retroactive inasmuch as you, ENB, and the next judge want to play retard. And that’s assuming the contract has an “in perpetuity” rather than “for the length of the contract” clause and that the “in perpetuity” clause is considered reasonably enforceable to begin with.
The idea that AL law is, somehow, going to generate a Federal Level law mandating that all embryos everywhere be stores in perpetuity, no exceptions is as stupid as the idea that Bush banned human cloning.
Additionally, this is both the standard and standard “BOAF SIDEZ” tactic being employed by ENB.
Even though the defendants are actual couples, we don’t hear their cases. I say this both in the sense of “there are two sides to every case” *and* as, in abortion cases, we’ll routinely get, not cases brought by women who were denied abortions, but the spelling out of cases brought by doctors who would be harmed if a woman ever came to them needing a 50th trimester abortion.
If these women were trying to abort these embryos or duck out on payments and make the clinic destroy them whatever, you can guarantee we'd get their stories of hardship. But because the narrative needs to be that AL and The Bible are bad, we don't get to hear that anyone (e.g.) mortgaged a house to pay the fertility clinic to harvest and accidentally destroy their embryos.
How many other pieces of property, not children, can be used years later to impact child support or inheritance rulings? I'd rather something internally consistent where the legislature defines the limits rather than an incoherent mess.
State Supreme Court Chief Justice Tom Parker cited the Bible to explain why.
You mean like "Good Samaritan protection for unaborted fetuses"?
Reap the whirlwind, bitch.
The 14th Amendment conferring individual rights to "persons born" in US borders was adopted 1868. Comstock's 1873 law enslaved on chaingangs women who mailed birth control pamphlets. Text (https://bit.ly/49ozTuv) Women actually impregnated were literally forced to reproduce until after the first LP electoral vote was counted in 1973. An all-male Supreme court reversed the 15th Amendment in Cruikshank arguments so as to exclude women from voting. Individual women are being subjected to antebellum chattel slavery and compulsory labor in Texas. How long before such reasoning makes rape as legal now as it was in 1860?
Comstock, you say?
So, riddle me this. If dropping frozen embryos on the floor is wrongful death, how is having a miscarriage not wrongful death? It doesn't matter that one is negligent action and one is a biological process. Falling asleep at the wheel of a moving vehicle is a biological process.
Is making miscarriage illegal ridiculous? Obviously. The law simply cannot ever mean that because society cannot continue to function if it is true, but logically there is no way to avoid it without some carve-out exception which makes very clear that, according to The State, there is only one acceptable way to make tiny people and people who want children but cannot must leave and take their otherwise productive lives (and tax dollars) elsewhere.
>>Falling asleep at the wheel of a moving vehicle is a biological process.
partially true.
Anyone want to come up with a precise list of which biological processes people are not (or should not) be held accountable for when it comes to negligence? Because standing law is that you are legally responsible for everything your body does, even accidentally.
falling asleep behind the wheel is never reasonable or prudent.
re: "Because standing law ..."
No - and miscarriages are a prime counter-example. If you kick a pregnant woman in the stomach and cause the death of the fetus, you are legally responsible for that death. However, if the pregnant woman gets sick or does any of a thousand normal things that might conceivably cause a miscarriage and such miscarriage occurs, she is not legally responsible for that loss.
Sneezing in someone's presence and transmitting a disease that ultimately kills them is also not illegal except in exceptional circumstances (and accidental transmissions are most definitely not among those exceptions). Previously-undiagnosed epileptics operating heavy machinery, car drivers suffering a heart attack, Tourette's sufferers being verbally abusive - I could come up with probably a dozen more counter-examples without much work.
Mens rea matters. Your body does lots of things without mens rea.
Really? So crashing into another car because you had a heart attack is still your fault? Don't think so. There is more grey area when you're talking something like epileptic seizures where there is usually an onset time let alone intentionally getting drunk
In Colorado when my grandfather had a heart attack while driving his Volvo he blew through a redight, got T-boned, went 45 degrees off his path and slammed into a house. The car broke the basement. It was a Volvo after all.
I was a passenger for this very not fun event.
Grandpa was charged with running a red light and was held liable for the broken basement. Fortunately he had really good insurance that covered almost all of it.
So yes, at least in Larimar County Colorado, you are liable if your traffic accident is caused by a heart attack.
In the past, I've joked that cats are deathly allergic to me, but really, killing cats is a biological process for me. Like breathing.
your cat murdering side is always a hoot.
So, riddle me this. If dropping frozen embryos on the floor is wrongful death, how is having a miscarriage not wrongful death?
Now, I know this is difficult for people who claim to be libertarians but who, apparently, go all retarded when ENB starts talking or invokes scripture or magic vaginas are involved or whatever but...
If you're contractually obligated to care for the embryos, you're liable per the terms of the contract and if you're not contractually obligated to carry them to term, you're not liable, whether the "you" is the same person or not.
This really isn't that difficult. Your daycare is insured. Your hospital is insured. And, unlike actual children, your frozen embryos have the added ability to be shipped and stored out of State. That's assuming you aren't in a circuit or district or court that wouldn't look at *your* case and this precedent and say "Get that Bible thumping malarky out of here!"
Again, this is a transparent ruse that ENB is (and you are) overreaching in order to enshrine women's right to murder into law even in places where it's not welcome.
If you’re contractually obligated to care for the embryos, you’re liable per the terms of the contract and if you’re not contractually obligated to carry them to term, you’re not liable, whether the “you” is the same person or not.
While I haven't seen the exact contracts at issue in the Alabama case, I have signed (numerous) contracts concerning the freezing, storage, and defrosting of embryos and assuming all these contracts are largely the same there is nothing in these contracts dealing with wrongful death. The embryos are not considered "people" in the legal sense, they are property. There are already legal and financial remedies in these contracts dealing with accidental destruction of the embryos, but they deal with in the manner of destroyed property.
Also, framing this as "women's right to murder" is pretty rich when the entire purpose of IVF is create children that would otherwise not be born. Fertility medicine is the literal, metaphorical, ethical, and moral mirror image of contraception in every imaginable way.
there is nothing in these contracts dealing with wrongful death
OK, so there are stipulations for the duration of the contract and the value of the property or is the contract completely shot through with unenforceable clauses and *somebody* has to adjudicate one way or the other? Are their stipulations for accidental destruction of the property? What about mix ups stipulations there? What about all the other possible exceptions foreseen and not foreseen? All stipulated? No need for courts because every eventuality has been foreseen up front or, as for the last several hundred years, the opposite of that where 99+% of contracts don't involve the courts one bit but...
Again, you people act like nobody ever suffered as the result of Thalidomide or COVID vaccines and that everyone involved is completely unhinged for wanting to take people to court. They're not. That's the point of fucking federalism. Don't like it? Store your embryos in Georgia or keep them in your home. This isn't $10M dollars for a cup of coffee the user spilled on themselves FFS.
Also, framing this as “women’s right to murder” is pretty rich when the entire purpose of IVF is create children that would otherwise not be born.
Are you seriously trying to assert that no one has ever used future potential actions to justify murder? Even mass murder?
Or are you just aping ENB's "The
delousinggestation chambers didn't have any bodies so their was no murder."/"Sonograms detect electrical signals." stupidity?You retards sound like Emma Camp whining about how a 10 yr. old suspected of murder goes to adult court for trial first and then gets remanded to juvenile court in more than a dozen states vs. going directly to juvenile and then getting escalated to adult court like 30 some others.
Giving ENB's known pet causes, having pre-born humans to be considered persons under the law is anathema to her preferences on abortion law. She is looking at the implications for the bigger picture, not just IVF.
Also, framing this as “women’s right to murder” is pretty rich when the entire purpose of IVF is create children that would otherwise not be born. Fertility medicine is the literal, metaphorical, ethical, and moral mirror image of contraception in every imaginable way.
You do understand that the clinic may've, through lapse judgement or diligence, effectively sterilized these women, right? That the court is effectively ruling that their right to bear children was taken from them. And that ENB's argument is that the women only have a limited right to be remunerated for the cost of storage and/or security or whatever.
Again, I'm not sold on any magic vagina or (un)limited protection from (un)limited liability nonsense but, at this point, ENB is, for not-so-mysterious reasons, declaring even just the discussion to be nonsense.
OK, then provide another form of property that can be used to claim child support or inheritance based off actions post divorce?
And what do you bet if this stands you'll start seeing clauses referencing wrongful death on an ongoing basis.
Falling asleep at the wheel may be a biological process, but there is a definite aspect of negligence in continuing to drive while at risk of falling asleep.
It does seem to open a door to a legal concept of "negligent miscarriage" although I seem to recall cases involving something like that already (specifically drug use while pregnant) so it may not be anything new.
Slavery has been around for a long, long time. HL Mencken offered a cash reward to anyone who could show where in the Bible it says slavery is morally wrong. Yet no less an expert on ancient languages than King James makes it plain that "The Lord" Heemself practiced postnatal abortion in slaying Er. The Selfsame Lord then proceeded to
murderabort Onan forabortingspilling an ejaculation in an act of deliberate birth control. Hiring a harlot to "come in unto" evidently did not offend "The Lord" to kill anyone in that same chapter. So where are God's "Every Sperm is Sacred" appointees to the Alabama Supreme Court? And why is sex work wrong or illegal?“I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in terror like his passengers.”
— Jack Handey
Deep Thoughts. Awesome.
ya good one.
If you fall asleep at the wheel and hit a car with a pregnant woman and cause her to miscarry, than you will be liable for a wrongful death.
A spontaneous miscarriage is not a wrongful death just as any other death due to natural causes is not a murder.
You should be smarter than to make such an argument.
A spontaneous miscarriage is not a wrongful death just as any other death due to natural causes is not a murder.
Explain your reasoning on this one. I don't follow how you can conclude that miscarriage is due to "natural causes". The conditions in a woman's uterus are not entirely random and anything but uniform. If a woman drinks a six pack of beer every day and miscarries, how is that not her fault? If she has an oddly shaped uterus and suffers repeated miscarriages because of it, how is she not responsible for repeated attempts that also miscarry? At some level, she must be responsible for her own body and its functions, even the ones she cannot fully control (like the hypothetical narcoleptic motorist).
Because miscarriages happen that arw not caused by any discernable human intent or negligence. This is simply a fact of life.
The whole argument is just utterly retarded on every level. It’s to the point of being sarcasmic.
Miscarriages can and do happen without apparent cause or negligence, but not always. Biological processes are not de facto defense against criminal or civil liability. Falling asleep while driving is not in inherently biological process any more than being retarded on the internet is an inherently biological process. Courts have, for over a thousand years, adjudicated what does and does not constitute a biological or moral justification or defense.
The idea that this is somehow an existential threat to… anything… is retarded. If anything, I half expect CA or NY or IL, tomorrow, will pass bills saying IVF clinics are legally entitled to eat viable embryos without customer’s permission and then n00bdragon will be stuck trying to decide whether to store his embryos in AL, CA/NY/IL or someplace more reasonable like, IA or MI or OH or WI (or 42 other places) where the clinics can’t eat embryos, are required to fulfill their contracts, but are capped at 30 or 60 or whatever years of “Lifetime storage”.
Miscarriages in the 1st trimester are generally from what we can call natural biological processes that lead to the child dying. Most women don't tell people they are pregnant on the first trimester for that reason.
Miscarriages in the second and third trimester are far more rare and generally happen because the woman is in poor health or has a hazardous lifestyle. Unfortunately not all hazardous lifestyles lead to Miscarriages, sometime they lead to really screwed up kids.
To Christian National Socialist Noobie here, TR was right in demanding criminal liability of women who shirk or desert their Duty in the War Against Race Suicide. But in keeping with the Girl-Bullier + Wankers' demand for Boaf Sides fairness, surely castration or a peepeeectomy is neither cruel nor unusual compared to the deadly coercion, death in childbed and deprivation of access to medical assistance cowardly peckers urge the government to have cops inflict on females. Lorena Bobbitt was 13 years ahead of her time when she administered the apposite punishment.
You are just so very boring.
What in the McFuck are you talking about? I cannot parse this at all.
Something which happens as a direct result of injury sustained in a vehicle collision is hardly "spontaneous".
Could you imagine a criminal trial in which a defendant admitted to hitting someone in the face with a bat, but claimed that the broken nose sustained by the person they hit was "spontaneous".
How about "OK, I admit that I put the muzzle of a loaded shotgun in his mouth and pulled the trigger, but the explosion of his skull was merely a "spontaneous" coincidence for which I have no liability"...
how is having a miscarriage not wrongful death?
Easy. We go to the Bible, as the Alabama Supreme Court did, and discover that the penalty for causing a miscarriage is compensation paid to the father of the fetus - unless the miscarriage occurred as part of a ritual to determine whether the mother had been unfaithful in which case the miscarriage is lawful - and may even be compulsory.
If dropping frozen embryos on the floor is wrongful death, how is having a miscarriage not wrongful death?
Well I don’t know about wrongful death for dropping a frozen embryo, but dropping a pickled brain on the floor is a good way to be cast as either Igor or Eegor.
It's the difference between negligence and accident. And you know it.
If your child has an unanticipated allergic reaction and dies before you could get treatment, it's a tragedy.
If your child gets into your heroin stash and overdoses, it's negligence.
To use that example, falling asleep behind the wheel because you had a sudden stroke is a tragedy.
Falling asleep because you were working for 16 hours is potentially reckless.
Falling asleep because you have a BAC of 0.3% is criminal.
Now, coming to miscarriage. If you fall down the stairs and miscarry, it's a tragedy. If you drink a fifth of tequila a day, they is a possibility that we might have an issue.
I've read enough of your writing to know that you are pretending to not understand this in order to make a political point.
Now, coming to miscarriage. If you fall down the stairs and miscarry, it’s a tragedy. If you drink a fifth of tequila a day, they is a possibility that we might have an issue.
So now every miscarriage can be investigated as a possible wrongful death? I must reiterate what a novel concept this is, because previously miscarriages that were undeniably caused by the mother were merely treated as tragedies. No woman has ever been prosecuted for drinking a fifth of tequila a day and killing her unborn child in this way. I don't want to cast aspersions on your beliefs, but if you so happen to believe "well, maybe they should be" I just want to point out what a thorny legal thicket that's going to lead all of us into because of the normal sorts of problems with these things: Who decides, where does the line get drawn, and which activities get exceptions to the line? Medical science has enough problems figuring out why babies die in the womb and more than enough tears to go around without being asked to decide whether a grieving woman should go to jail too. To those saying "the line is clear", the line is absolutely not clear and that is my objection. If you want to see that it's not clear just look at what is happening in Alabama right now with hospitals canceling IVF cycles. You think the hospital is canceling them for political points? All the women involved in them halfway through their meds are simultaneously saying "fuck it honey, I know we thought we wanted a baby but what we really want is to be pawns in Planned Parenthood's abortion crusade"? It is ridiculous.
I’ve read enough of your writing to know that you are pretending to not understand this in order to make a political point.
I always find it strange when people claim to know what I think or understand my own purposes better than even I do. I deliberately chose an extreme and absurd example to highlight the problem with a string of logic. It's basic Reductio ad Absurdum. We cannot simply assume that this decision will be fine and cause no problems. It has already thrown IVF as a process in Alabama into jeopardy. It's only a matter of time until someone uses it to make a vindictive court case against an otherwise healthy woman who miscarries, because there's absolutely nothing stopping that now. Someone will be daring and crass enough to do it. Whether that takes the form of arguing a single beer one time is enough to cast guilt or too many yoga classes or whatever I don't know, but it certainly makes me concerned for myself. I don't live in Alabama (I live in Texas), so right now at this very moment this doesn't affect me, but if I did live there, as someone going through IVF and surrogacy right now it would affect me. Whenever you ask yourself "yeah, but really who does this affect?", congratulations, you know at least one. I am not pretending to not understand where the line is, I'm someone who has experienced five miscarriages in a row now the doctors can't tell me why, I own frozen embryos, and I'm genuinely afraid that if some court case like this happened here, where I live, I could suddenly be seen as a dangerous liability to a hospital and cut off from medical services that I need.
Can be investigated? Probably. Should be investigated? There's a slippery slope I don't think we want to see happen. I'd say unless a family member or the woman whose car got hit wants to prosecute the law should stay out of it. I don't want any government having that kind of power.
>>a turn toward judicial activism
cute.
If a judge can cite the Bible for a decision what about citing from other religious texts? Quaran, Toriah, Veda or the writing of Richard Dawkins, would any of these texts work to support a legal argument?
When it comes to preserving fertilized unborn lives, The Bible is a violation of the 1A and Separation of Church and State. When it comes to preserving the lives of people who murder pregnant women, drown their children, and cut the unborn fetuses from their wombs, The Bible is a invaluable collection of lessons in forgiveness that we should all heed.
No. Just as mystical whack jobs appeal to translator renderings of writings in a language of which they themselves possess only bovine incomprehension, superstition so acquired morally empowers them to equivocate and kill. Trade is good commerce when Waffen buys a Ford SUV, but evil traffic when John Lennon scores a gram of hash. Religion is good when a Most Christian Majesty orders disbelievers in His Revelations burned, but it is evil heresy when a foreign Ayatolla has his devotées club or stone a convinced Christian to his Final Reward in Heaven. Every moral code requires a standard of value. The mystical standard is superstition, backed by ignorance, hatred, altruism fear and death.
In Alabama? I doubt any English translation of the Bible that's more recent than The Fundamentals (roughly 1910 or so).
Argentina's anarcho-caudillo alpha male demands State coercion to enforce collectivized rights of anything with altered DNA. This would equivocate surgery to remove a tumor with actual homicide if his ravings were to reverse the recent emancipation of Argentine women into the ranks of individuals with rights. Every excuse for exposing women to deadly coercion is multiplied a billionfold to men when one understands that male masturbation kills that many entities that are both human and alive. Brown women were exempted from forcible rape by the 13th Amendment. Partial protection from Comstock coercion into labor was achieved in early 1973, thanks to the LP.
Does ENB understand that the part of the traditional liberal philosophical argument for the Rights of Man is that rights are a endowment from God? That is what the Declaration of Independence is invoking when going on about one's "unalienable rights".
Does ENB understand that the part of the traditional liberal philosophical argument for the Rights of Man is that rights are a endowment from God?
If she did, she’d be wrong. Some of the liberal enlightenment, or “Enlightenment” for short, held that rights arose from Nature, not necessarily from God, about whose existence many of them were at best unsure of.
Thomas Paine fwiw deffo went for rights from Nature not from God.
But to argue in a court of law whether as advocate or judge that rights come from God is absurd.
Somehow, it is only the atheist philisophers of the Enlightenment, which are definitive about the source of rights. That is much coping there.
It’s pretty evident that there was no universal agreement amongst them. And while some of the FFs were no doubt theists, others, deists, and a few no doubt “freethinkers” – including agnostics and atheists – (though they’d have been ill-advised to admit it, it is significant that there is no mention of a creator or God anywhere in the Constitution, which controls in a way that the DoI does not.
Setting aside for a moment what the FFs, drafters, etc. thought, if you want to argue that rights come from God, you have to prove that God exists before you can go any further. On surmounting that barrier, you then have to prove that God did actually endow rights and had himself the right to do so. And then you have to prove that the rights that God endowed are the same ones you claim he did – using appropriate source materials whose validity you must also prove.
Better just to say, “I believe these rights [insert list of rights here] come from God” and don’t try to impose your beliefs on others.
My ethics prof taught that "a right is a moral claim to freedom of action." The proof is argued with rigorous precision in "Moral Rights and Political Freedom." Moral illiteracy is pretty much the equivalent of never having studied the book. Ask yourself: when was the last time a girl-bullying mystic refuted--or even mentioned--any of the arguments contained in that academic analysis?
I have too many books in my queue atm but a quick peruse on Google Books gave me a distinctly favourable impression of the book. Thanks!
Your rights are very alienable. Look at what happened to the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas. Has any federal officer ever been prosecuted for their involvement in that festival of murder? Has Lon Horiuchi, the FBI sniper, that shot Vicky Weaver, and killed her, while she was carrying her baby ever been prosecuted?
In both of those cases the victims were "God fearin' Christians" and not a single representative of their god showed up to help them out. Their god didn't do anything to preserve their rights. Their rights were taken away without anyone raising enough of a stink to get the sitting president, Bill Clinton, impeached for his broad abuses of power.
Your have all the rights you can hold onto.
So would it be OK to store toddlers in liquid nitrogen?
"NEEDZ MOAR TESTING!" - Reason Science Correspondent
Not in 14th Amendment America. Similar points were raised by American admirers of Christian National Socialist Germany. Green Hackworth at the State Department urged that the Nazi government had every right to enslave and exterminate Jews within its leaping boundaries. Try to imagine U.S. reaction to a German suggestion in 1872 that Billy Tecumseh Sherman had no right to March Across Texas, NM, CO, Oklahoma, Wyoming, Dakotas, Montana and Utah exterminating Native Americans and buffalo herds! Hah!
The shotgun approach to IVF used by fertility clinics has always been ethically dubious with the creation of extra embryos, which was why they did not really talk about how exactly they achieved their results to the general public until there started to be custody battles over embryos when patients got divorced.
Yes, the logical conclusions of following the strict letter of the law in having a child developed in an artificial womb not be considered a legal person is crazy. Now please explain how the frozen embryo is not a person under the law a sane conclusion.
IVF is expensive and collecting multiple eggs to fertilize makes economic sense. A remedy would be for more inclusion of IVF by health insurers. Couples could then fertilize fewer embryos and simple harvest as needed. Higher cost but less ethical dilemmas.
fewer
Correct. Fewer if countable, less if measured in bulk, volume or the like. Fewer and less are what the Kleptocracy offers by way of rights and freedom in BOTH its blabbering platforms. Early LP platforms offered more of both.
Where do individual rights and freedom from slavery pose ethical dilemmas? In the heads of brainwashed mystics--like the Supreme Court reinterpreting 15A to exclude women--they sound OK... for men. But the first time women voted in a national election without fear of police coercion was in 1920! An Equal Rights Amendment could put a stop to this nonsense. But a Trumpanzee court could still rule some sexes more equal than others.
After all the legal concerns, I suspect that freezing unfertilized eggs will become the norm. After all, it's far easier to get the father's donation.
Well Emma, an eight month old fetus isn't a child to you, so get over it.
Right. This is rather overtly ENB distorting or ignoring narratives to virtue signal her disdain for AL and The Bible and her unabashed desire to kill babies.
Women exercised their agency, as women, to freeze these embryos. They exercised their agency, as women, to sue for the loss of their embryos... which was done without/against their agency. The court is generally deciding that they have such agency and/or that The State will recognize, hear, defend it.
The only reason you would oppose the decision is if you really wanted to kill these embryos. A decision that specifically refutes and/or voids these women's agency.
What's not to dislike about Alabama?
Half-educated racists.
Superstitious gay-bashers.
Slack-jawed immigrant-haters.
Economically inadequate hayseeds.
Lousy, nonsense-based schools.
Worthless culture war casualties.
Alabama is home to the AfD-financed Lootvig von Mises caucus and Institute. That's the Christian anarcho-nationalsocialist thing that invaded the LP to remake it into a smaller, harder, angrier Republican Party. Thanks to George Wallace getting 17% of the electoral votes in 1968, the Republican Party itself was spoiler-levered into turning harder, angrier and more prohibitionist than at any time since FDR beat the stool out of it four times running.
It isn’t a viable ‘child’ until it is one. So set it free and find out.
The worse part of the abortion debate is everyone wants to preach in ‘imagination’ and 'faith' instead of reality.
I don't think 'imagination' and 'faith' is an arena for legislation.
STATES RANKED BY EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT
(includes territories; 52 jurisdictions ranked)
HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA
Alabama 45
COLLEGE DEGREE
Alabama 47
ADVANCED DEGREE
Alabama 39
NONSENSE-BASED EDUCATION
Alabama 3
SUPERSTITIOUS SLACK-JAWS
Alabama 2
HALF-EDUCATED BIGOTS
Alabama 3
REPUBLICAN REGISTRATION
Alabama 4
Carry on, clingers.
So most Alabama robbers would not qualify to join "the Crackers!" That's the robber band in a Country Joe and The Fish movie, Zachariah. The only existing copy was butchered to flinders by a U.S.-backed military dictatorship in South America, much like Vertov's 1929 "Man With a Movie Camera" was butchered of its legal drug scenes when Prohibition was referred to as Liberty and economic collapse was a "depression."
Oh, look, Arthur Loser Kirkland is jealous of Alabama.
".......with Alabama Supreme Court Justice Tom Parker citing the Bible in his legal reasoning."
i know those who harp on separation of church and state tend to take things a bit far, but c'mon.....
The Klan never tired f citing the Wholly Bauble in its pathetic perorations on doctrines of legal coercion as justification for the initiation of force.
What is the shelf life of a frozen embryo? What percentage successfully implant? Would be a lot simpler to just ban the practice for human offspring. What percentage fail to implant after intercourse? To be safe, better ban intercourse.
"To be safe, better ban intercourse."
some of these bible thumpers would if they could. (outside marriage, at least.)
Banning male wanking with a reasonable faith-based penalty of pecker forfeiture is a better solution. Once whacked for murdering billions of living human spermatozoa, the perp is unable to impregnate a lady. The unwanted pregnancy problem then goes away without the need for bullying, enslaving or killing women for dereliction of Duty to the Republican Sharia Party.
Again, morons, if you offer $50 to clean your house, I take the $50 and, in the process of cleaning, leave the door open such that people come in and some of your shit gets broken or stolen, you suing me for what you perceive the value of your broken and stolen shit to be is not a ban on housecleaning services or an inherent end to the cleaning industry nationwide.
Unless, of course, you're an insane, misanthropic, socialist zealot looking for and deriding any case anywhere where someone values things differently than you and strive to impugn them for it.
Can an 18 year old frozen embryo vote? Asking for a friend who is a Democrat and always recommends voting by mail...
CB
This is actually a decent/cogent point. If your friend who is a Democrat and always recommends voting by mail successfully encouraged an embryo to vote, would the embryo’s age be the critical or most relevant issue? Or would you regard the fact that an embryo voted as equally criminal or liable as a minor or a dead person voting?
I'm not clear about most of this. The way it's reported, it sounds like a patient [not one of the plaintiffs] entered the IVF storage area and destroyed some embryos, so the plaintiffs are suing the hospital/clinic? I wait patiently for the logic behind this to dawn on me. It has not yet done so. Seems that the perp is the patient who entered illegally and did the mischief.
But on a different, but related note, afterbirths [placentas] and umbilical cords are routinely discarded without ceremony. They both contain an abundance of stem cells. Since they can differentiate into any- and everything, it seems that they're right up there with embryos in the ladder of what makes something a person.
Just a topic to consider....
Just a step in the Alabama-theocrat scheme to enslave all women of child bearing age. Next step: Arrest for child endangerment any woman found to have imbibed alcohol while pregnant whether she knew she was pregnant or not. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Smoking a cigarette while pregnant: very bad must be jailed to prevent. Taking her anti-depressants. That might have bad side effects. A suicidal woman is safer incarcerated so obvious solution there. Don't forget about weed! Just jail all the pregnant ones until they have given birth then toss them out post-haste the day after.
You realize that for a woman to get pregnant she has to have sexual intercourse with a man. You realize that if a woman doesn't have sexual intercourse with a man it is impossible for her to get pregnant. Thus if a woman doesn't want any responsibilities that may result from sexual intercourse with a man she simply doesn't have to have sex. Pretty easy really. Don't want to have a child, get a vibrator.
Spot on! That was my first reaction, too...
The perp who damaged/destroyed the fertilized eggs should, by the "Alabama Logic" be accused of and tried for murder or at least manslaughter (embryoslaughter???)
Theocratic-leaning Judge in Alabama makes a ruling based on a questionable rationale which is likely to be overturned in the appeals courts.
Affluent white women in Seattle, Portland, and Northern California most directly affected (just ask them).
Somewhere in the Pacific Northwest, there's a BBQ restaurant surrounded by shouting protesters in goofy hats while the employees inside are trying to figure out why.
re: likely to be overturned
Actually, not. This decision was issued by the supreme court of the state on a matter of state law. Their decision cannot be overturned. It will have to be reversed by the legislature actually changing the laws the court "interpreted".
And the assertion of “Theocratic-leaning… questionable rationale” is… between presumptive and clickbait-y. If a lapsed Christian(?) Atheist(?) family sues an agnostic corporation staffed by Christians(?) for what the family alleges to be theft and the judge proclaims “Thou shalt not steal!” and rules in defense of one group of Christians over the other, I’m not entirely clear on how that “Theocratic-leaning”. I could understand if it was a Christian plaintiff ruling against precedent and a specifically non-Christian defendant with a novel construction, especially with broader social implications. However, again in this case, this is a *bit* clickbait-y like saying places that perform late term abortions (the riskiest kind) need to have admitting privileges to the nearest hospital because it’s wrong to kill mothers or babies is a "theocratic-leaning" position.
It’s like the “This is a commune. We’re communists.” trope from the last of us. One judge out of 9 democratically-elected judges didn’t make the decision whole cloth from The Bible itself. In a sense, he was the one judge most clearly honest about not declaring himself to be the sole authority and/or, likely, most clearly aligning himself with the spirit of AL legislature in 1872.
For 99+% of the population not getting late term abortions or having their frozen embryos stolen by a poorly-secured IVF clinic, they wouldn’t notice the slightest dimming of the dark night of theocracy falling… if it weren’t for all the totally-not-religiously-motivated doomsaying Chicken Littles.
One judge out of 9 democratically-elected judges didn’t make the decision whole cloth from The Bible itself.
And, even if he did, he himself didn't bring the case.
The inverse analogy would be asserting that a cardinal in The Catholic Church insisting on the process of the cardinals, as representatives of their parishes, selecting a Pope is republican-leaning. It's not wrong, but any up translation that, objectively, all the cardinals are republican-leaning, and that The Catholic Church is or is listing in a Federated Republican is... a bit... clickbait-y.
If the 10 commandments were the sole basis for criminalizing theft, those laws might have been overturned in the US more than 100 years ago. The taking of something of value is a violation of individual rights based on logic completely outside of any established religion, and would be a fundamental part of criminal codes even if the idea of religion had never existed in human history, unless the idea of ownership had also never existed.
Nice little strawman you tried to set up there, though.
Does anyone anywhere doubt that the Judges who made the Alabama ruling did so with the intention of using it as a precedent to increase or reinforce Alabama's restrictions on termination of pregnancy by whatever means. As Dave Attell once said, "they can ban abortions, but they can't ban getting drunk and falling down a flight of stairs...", seems likely that this ruling is setting the stage for attempting to do exactly that.
Some of the other aspects of imbuing frozen embryos with "personhood":
- If an embryo is a "person", then is keeping it frozen indefinitely somehow violating its civil rights similar to how imprisonment would be for a person with a fully developed and biologically autonomous body/mind?
- If an embryo is a "person", then are patients whose IVF procedures don't result in implantation (there's a reason why IVF frequently involves creating a lot of embryos, and attempting to implant multiples at one time to increase the likelihood of one taking hold) have some kind of criminal culpability? Or the doctors involved?
- Would frozen embryos in storage legally be considered to be default "next of kin" and entitled to inherit property if the parents die without an established will?
- Speaking of wills, do any current wills for people who have embryos in storage have to be re-written if they include destruction of stored embryos in the event of the death of the parent(s)? Do people in that situation now have to designate a "guardian" to take on custody/responsibility for those embryos? If the designated guardian is incapable of even attempting implantation, are they then required to just pay for storage in perpetuity?
-If an embryo in Alabama is a "person", then does stealing one or more constitute kidnapping? If so, how would investigation/prosecution of that crime proceed since the Federal goverment claims jurisdiction over that crime, but doesn't recognize the "personhood" of the supposed victim in such a case; can it be dealth with as "theft" since there's no longer a legal structure in which a person is also property (even in Alabama)?
- Does it violate Alabama law to transport embryos out of the State in order to destroy them in another state which allows it? Will they prohibit transport entirely in order to make sure this doesn't happen since once they're out of the State on any premise they're no longer protected by State laws?
There are a lot of implications which come along with imbuing "personhood" onto an object which might not have a prospective path to conciousness, let alone legal adulthood, and I doubt these judges considered many (maybe any) of those.
If the 10 commandments were the sole basis for criminalizing theft, those laws might have been overturned in the US more than 100 years ago. The taking of something of value is a violation of individual rights based on logic completely outside of any established religion, and would be a fundamental part of criminal codes even if the idea of religion had never existed in human history, unless the idea of ownership had also never existed.
Nice little strawman you tried to set up there, though.
You're agreeing with my "straw man". The 10 comm. were not the "sole reason" these judges made the ruling and then being retarded:
Does anyone anywhere doubt that the Judges who made the Alabama ruling did so with the intention of using it as a precedent to increase or reinforce Alabama’s restrictions on termination of pregnancy by whatever means.
Sounds like you're pontificating on what lies in the hearts of men here, employing others to join you in your beliefs. Does that make your position a theocratic one or is this still a democratic federated republic?
To wit:
There are a lot of implications which come along with imbuing “personhood” onto an object which might not have a prospective path to conciousness, let alone legal adulthood, and I doubt these judges considered many (maybe any) of those.
Even the ones who dissented? What about the ones who assented? Because the literal law of the land as far as we're concerned is "Congress shall make no law... respecting the establishment of religion." not "The state shall expunge any religion from any/all corners."
The rest of your rant is immaterial along the same vein. Atheist and agnostic justices can make the same faux pas and agree with or be agreed with by Christians and arrive at the same conclusion. One of them invoking the 10C doesn't make Alabama or the US a theocracy any more than one of them quoting Galen makes it a Greek Empire.
Someone will come up with a pretext to claim that the State law is overreaching, or that it's somehow violating the 14th Amendment. At that point, it'll depend on which judge and which appeals circuit they can get the case into the pipeline for.
Would the State Law, as interpreted by this Judge prevent an IVF patient from having their unused embryos transported out of state for "disposal"? would be one example, then it's simply a matter of finding an activist willing to make themselves the test case.
How being power-mad leads to OCD and yields tyranny.
The 'bible' isn't the cause. It's the excuse. The cause is Gov-Gun Power-madness. The effect is felt by this nation already and unless the 'cause' is LIMITED it will continue to get worse.
It started as, "but, but, but its for the children!"
And has grown into, "but, but, but it for 'imaginary' children!"
Frozen embryos are "unborn children" and "unborn children are 'children,'" Justice Jay Mitchell wrote in the court's main opinion.
What's not true about that?
It’s an oxymoron like Crony Capitalism.
Word games seem to be a favorite amongst the power-mad.
There never was such a thing as an unborn child. It's just propaganda run amuck.
Feel free to replace "child" with "human" if you don't like the emotive rhetoric.
Frozen Embryo. What species? Human.
It's in a developmental stage, but not born yet. What's not born? A human.
Are unborn humans something other than humans? If so, what?
I repeat: what's not true about what Justice Mitchell wrote?
Trying to turn an adjective into a noun is also BS propaganda.
Keeping most "children" in a freezer for extended (or even fairly short) periods of time would legally be abuse/neglect at the vary least, and at some point it would cross over to become homicide.
Would the taking of one or more frozen embryos legally be considered "kidnapping", or would it be "theft"?
If it's theft, then the embryos are "property" which means they can't also be "people" (a prerequisite of being "children").
If it's kidnapping, then it's a Federal crime, except that the Feds would consider it to be theft since frozen embryos aren't legally considered to be people or children and the perpetrator couldn't be prosecuted.
“If stealing birth control form of rape, condom made of rubber, tire made of rubber, whycome stealing tire not rape? Federal government no pursue tire thiefs as rapists? KKKrishunz iz dumb.” – B G
If it’s kidnapping, then it’s a Federal crime, except that the Feds would consider it to be theft since frozen embryos aren’t legally considered to be people or children and the perpetrator couldn’t be prosecuted.
Ah, I see. You’re another, potentially voluntarily, brain dead leftist retard who forgets, or never really knew in the first place, the difference between criminal law and civil law and generally how court systems around the world have worked for centuries, that entities which are not people but critically compose people or are composed by people can be granted the same rights as people, and that people suing other people are owed a right to do so by their government and aren’t automatically faceless agents of said government whenever somebody uses the word “embryo” in a context you don’t like. You realize that lots of states have distinct, criminal, laws against stealing and defiling corpses and other “non-human” objects that don’t clearly translate to the theft and desecration of still other objects, right? That the FBI, since its inception, has pursued criminals across state lines for crimes other than kidnapping and, prior to that, State and Federal Marshals (created by the First Congress when the Consititution was ratified by the same men who could/would quote The Bible in 1789) did the same, right?
ENB would kill a woman by stabbing her to death in the uterus to save her right to abort and you would overturn a couple centuries of criminal law in order to avoid equating stealing someone’s embryos with stealing their children. Like somebody would accidentally break into an IVF clinic thinking they would be just committing plain old theft any more than someone breaking into a daycare would think they were committing theft, and The Bible and your atheist zealotry is as immaterial as you wish other’s Christian zealotry were.
I’ve got to hand it to Dawkins and similar or more anti-religious activists, they’ve done a great job of lowering the general level of intellect and discourse involved in refuting pretty much anything. Used to be, to argue religion or the law, you had to study religion, the law, or both in order to discover a decent argument, pick an intelligent side, and generally be morally or factually correct or in conflict to make a valid point. Nowadays, you can just stick your finger up your nose and say, “Whycome No Judge prosekyoot nozepickers for aborting boogers? Kristchunz iz dumb.”
If embryos are children, then why aren't zygotes? Is there something either magical or legally significant in the occurrance of some number of cycles of mitosis? If so, how many cells are required before "personhood" is attained?
If a zygote is a child, then wouldn't any form of birth control which works by preventing implantation (IUD, pills, hormone-based shots/implants/patches/rings, Plan B) be legally equivalent to infanticide?
Could a frozen embryo be considered "next of kin" and inherit the property of its parents (or other relatives) if they died before writing a will?
blah blah blah. The GOP will continue to lose now that they have gotten what they wanted and the abortion issue is "back with the states."