'Someone Is Going To Die Today': Did Daniel Penny Act in Self-Defense?
"I have encountered many things," one witness told the grand jury, "but nothing that put fear into me like that."

In January 1985, Sol Wachtler, then the newly minted chief judge of the New York Court of Appeals, commented to The New York Daily News that prosecutors in his state could "by and large" get grand juries to "indict a ham sandwich."
To date, the ham sandwiches have remained free. But the spirit of the maxim—that district attorneys can usually secure an indictment regardless of a case's merits—has likely attracted some modern-day supporters with the prosecution of Daniel Penny, whom a grand jury indicted on second-degree manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide charges in June. This week, a judge rejected Penny's motion to have those charges dismissed.
On May 1, 2023, a man named Jordan Neely began threatening passengers in a New York subway car. Penny, a former Marine, responded by restraining Neely in a chokehold. Police boarded the car several minutes later, and, after attempting CPR, Neely was transported to Lenox Hill Hospital, where he was ultimately pronounced dead.
The case almost immediately became a cultural litmus test for how you feel about crime, homelessness, and the right to self-defense. Is Daniel Penny a reckless vigilante? Or is he a ham sandwich?
Testimony given to the grand jury, provided by witnesses on that subway car, injects a bit more nuance into a debate that has primarily been colored by a viral video taken by a freelance journalist who'd been on the train.
"Someone is going to die today," Neely reportedly said, according to Person No. 9, a high school student who testified she started to pray that the "doors would open" so she and her classmate could get away. Neely threatened that he "would kill anyone" and was willing to "take a bullet," said Person No. 4, a retiree. Two more witnesses added that Neely had assumed a fighting stance, and another witness—Person No. 18, a mom who was taking her young son to a therapy appointment—recounted that Neely was making "half-lunge movements" and coming within "a half a foot of people."
"I have been riding the subway for many years," said the retiree. "I have encountered many things, but nothing that put fear into me like that."
On the flip side, the video, taken by journalist Juan Alberto Vazquez, captures a passenger telling Penny he might "catch a murder charge" if he continued because he had a "hell of a chokehold." "My wife is ex-military," he said. "You're going to kill him now."
Much has been made of the fact that Penny is also a veteran. He should've known when to release Neely, the thinking goes.
Not necessarily, according to several Marine veterans interviewed by Business Insider, all of whom said that training focuses not on the safety of a subject but on the safety of innocent bystanders whose lives may be in danger. "Once you make the decision to intervene, the only thing you can do is hold on until help arrives," said a former senior officer, who opted to remain anonymous. "We don't place a heavy emphasis on knowing when to let up to ensure your opponent survives," added Alex Hollings, a former Marine black belt who of the four was the most critical of Penny's actions. "He should have been able to assess that his opponent was no longer providing any kind of resistance, and at that point he should have known that Neely was unconscious," he said. "Of course, we are talking about a fight. Most people aren't thinking at all, let alone thinking straight during one."
It will be up to a jury now to determine if the alleged recklessness Hollings describes rises to a criminal level. And reckless will indeed be the key word. Under New York law, Penny is guilty of second-degree manslaughter if he "recklessly cause[d] the death of" Neely despite being "aware of and consciously disregard[ing] a substantial and unjustifiable risk that such result will occur." [Emphasis mine.] For the criminally negligent homicide charge, Penny is guilty if he caused Neely's death after he "fail[ed] to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk that such result will occur." [Emphasis mine.] The former charge carries a prison sentence of up to 15 years; the latter count prescribes a term of up to four years.
Those who feel Penny's prosecution is unjust—that he has been ham-sandwiched—can take comfort in the fact that his jury at trial will be tasked with evaluating his case with a much higher standard of proof than his grand jury was. That may not be complete consolation, however, when considering another criminal justice cliche: that "the process is the punishment."
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Yes.
Next question.
Unfortunately for him, he acted in self defense in New York City. That's illegal there.
Fair.
He's also a white male. So two strikes. Or is that three?
Only two. If he is straight, that would be strike three.
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He should come out as trans and show up at the trial in a dress. Their heads will explode.
The solution to the problem is to make the Democrat party illegal.
Communism is the solution?
No, the democrats ARE the communists. So get rid of them as they are intrinsically treasonous. Maybe the LP can fill the void. Or some, new (non Marxist) party.
The obvious libertarian solution.
Yes. It is libertarian to not allow Marxist authoritarians to run our government. Aren’t you tired of having your natural rights subject infringement by votes and regulations from Marxist democrats?
"Someone is going to die today," - Jordan Neely, precog.
The fact that this even went to trial shows how far this country has fallen. As for the guy video recording the incident and second guessing Penny, how about you put down the camera and break it up if you think a line was crossed?
Sure, and get arrested yourself. Cops have made it clear that intervention will get you handcuffs at the very least, and quite possibly shot.
Allowing criminality while prosecuting self defense and or responses to criminality is part of the playbook.
What? Get involved in NYC? That tribe invented the see nothing--do nothing technique.
They were trained by the mob.
Remember Rittenhouse? Everything was caught on video, clear as day, and they still tried him. There are morons to this day that not only think he's a murderer, but repeat factual inaccuracies about the case.
Fortunately Rittenhouse didn't have to stand trial in NYC.
This is a case for which a NYC jury works in his favor. Anyone who has ever traveled in that subway system will identify with him.
That guy was too much of a pussy. Just like Sarc.
The case is really not that complexionated. He was the wrong complexion at the wrong time and place.
If the homeless guy was white and Penny was black...this story would be totally different. In fact it wouldn't even be a story. There is no such thing as white privilege...quite the opposite in fact.
.
Delusional, disaffected, grievance-consumed, right-wing bigots are among my favorite culture war casualties.
These slack-jaws can't be replaced quickly enough.
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit, that is.
You're not even a person. If you are, tell us what you would have done.
He would have, hopefully, intervened and been stabbed or choked to death.
Yes, Artie is a scumbag.
Arty, he won’t respond. That would require more than copying and pasting. He’s too stupid for that.
I really hope he dies.
Ah, "[blank] are among my favorite [blank]" and "carry on clingers" in the same post.
As long as we're repeating stuff, might as well revisit your magnum opus:
"I wouldn’t mind seeing Judge Barrett confirmed, if only because I believe it would precipitate the installation of four new, better justices during the first half of 2021."
Art thought ACB replacing RBG would immediately pay off. For Democrats!
Then he watched Roe get aborted by a Supreme Court he predicted would have a 7 - 6 liberal majority.
Next he watched racial preferences get gutted by a Supreme Court he predicted would have a 7 - 6 liberal majority.
So here's my question. If a heavy-handed satirist had scripted the events of the Biden Era Supreme Court specifically to make Art look as stupid as possible, what would be different? How could Art possibly look more ridiculous than he does now?
Hey, dickhead, let's go for a ride on the subway.
And if Penny was a black trans fattie there would have been a parade and a Freedom Medal from Biden.
Despite what Kirkland would have you believe, we don't even need to guess the outcome would be different. We have a case that proves it.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/charges-dropped-jordan-williams-nyc-man-accused-fatal-subway-stabbing-rcna91780
Yep, buckle up, this is going to get much worse before it gets better:
https://www.ksl.com/article/50364761/3-men-who-raped-or-filmed-14-year-old-sentenced-to-probation
We're being set up for a wave of vigilantiism. It's part of the Anarchy-Tyranny plan to stoke civil unrest as a justification for a full authoritarian crackdown.
At this point I welcome the Punisher.
Enough people will take the bait for this to end badly for us.
Thousands of them.
The judge is the one who deserves to suffer. At the very least, this judge should be doxxed, and never given a moments peace. There should also be legal foundations who sole function is to destroy the lives of these people.
Anarchy has its benefits, I suppose.
And not just here...
'This Is Hell': These Eight Men Who Brutally Assaulted a Minor Won't Get Any Jail Time (townhall.com)
The attack occurred in 2020. The victim, then just 15-years-old, was assaulted, dragged into the bushes by the perpetrators, and raped. The reason is that they had a rough go of it as immigrants. I’m not kidding.
The German outlet noted that the 11 indicted suspects represented a range of nationalities. Four were German, while others hailed from Kuwait, Poland, Egypt, Libya and Iran.
A female psychiatrist testifying on behalf of the defendants argued that their alleged gang rape was a “means of releasing frustration and anger” stemming from their “migration experiences and socio-cultural homelessness,” according to the Hamburger Morgenpost.
Hamburger Morgenpost, a German tabloid, reported on comments made by a female psychiatrist Dr Nahlah Saimeh, who said in an interview with Spiegel that the defendants in the case could have been influenced by their migration experience.
“The origin is important to consider when it pushes the perpetrators to the edge of society and social integration is not possible,” the German psychiatrist said.
“This could happen through difficulties with language, unemployment or problems with the housing situation, coupled with a “feeling mix of anger, grief, powerlessness, depression, fantasies of magnitude as a compensation attempt to cope with one’s own misery and addictive substance consumption.
“Disorderly, unprepared migration experiences and socio-cultural homelessness increase the risk of addictions and also of psychosis. At the same time, the risk of becoming a criminal also increases,” the psychiatrist and author told a German news magazine.
She said that sex can serve as a “means to release frustration and anger.”
“The victim becomes a pure instrument of one’s own sexual satisfaction. It is about an immediate need, opportunity, inner conviction and the right of the strongest,” Saimeh said.
In the interview, when questioned about a rise in sexual offences, Dr Saimeh acknowledged that from 2017 to 2022, there was a doubling of reported sexual offences in Germany. In relation to the rise, she referenced “a disorderly migration movement” which means some are living “on the social edge of society, culturally, linguistically, and socially completely uprooted” – adding, “It is not really surprising that this also promotes crime risks.”
[https://gript.ie/aftermath-of-gang-rape-trial-rocks-germany/]
Germans will put up with a LOT.
I have friends over there that I've spent time with. Wonderful people, but their society is described as being "tight," which is to say that they hunker down and do what they're told [they do have a history of that] without putting up much of an argument, never mind a fight.
And then there is the perpetual guilt over the Third Reich, as if each and every 21st Century national is personally responsible for it. It will take a lot for them to get their backs up.
I blame superhero movies, and specifically Batman movies. A lot of people have overly simplistic ideas about how difficult it is to subdue someone who is actively resisting without killing him. In truth, a lot of the thugs who Batman clubs in the back of the head or smashes into a wall suffered brain damage and likely died shortly thereafter. Many of them likely had less than perfect health, and being thrown across a room might have caused their necks to snap, or he blew an appendix with a gut-punch (Houdini-style), or the strain of being thoroughly beaten up caused a heart attack.
There's no real-life "Vulcan Nerve Pinch." You can't just grab someone in the right spot and hit their off switch. There is a rear naked choke hold that, if you successfully cut off bloodflow, can render someone unconscious in about 10 seconds. But against someone actively resisting you, it's not always easy to perfectly put on a chokehold.
If someone is actively posing a threat, do you have to be absolutely perfect in defending yourself? Do we require people to be Batman when it comes to self-defense, always able to easily incapacitate without risk of death?
always able to easily incapacitate without risk of death?
I've known people who work with the developmentally disabled who have that ability, but it takes training and experience.
This post would be infinitely better without the first paragraph. Do you think Penny, a former marine, suffered delusions that he was Batman? Do you think there are a lot of people out there accidentally giving purse snatchers brain damage because of Christian Bale or Robert Downey Jr.?
You sound like Tipper Gore lecturing people about how Bugs Bunny shooting Yosemite Sam in the face will confuse children into shooting each other. Except with adults.
The reason I choke out psychos on the subway is because my first dungeons and dragons character was a lawful good paladin.
You're really rolling the die on second-degree manslaughter charges with that one.
Naturally, 20 years ago none of this would have been an issue.
LOL, took my brain a minute, but reminded me of one of my favorite episodes.
To wit, the spinebreaker knee-drop, while way more permanently debilitating, really is much less lethal.
You forgot Adam West.
I read that as being about the media audience demanding he subdue him instantly and without harm, not about Penny.
Same.
Me three.
Right. Batman doesn’t subdue people without harm. Adults don’t actually believe Batman or The Punisher subdues people without harm any more than kids believe Bugs Bunny actually shoots Yosemite Sam in the face with a real gun.
Thus, “This post would be infinitely better without the first paragraph.”
You missed my point. It’s not Daniel Penny, it’s his critics who imagine these things play out like movies. They’re not in the situation, so they judge from the outside, and a movie styled vision of how it’s supposed to play out. Like some super-competent spy movie where all the bad guys go down silently after being in a sleeper hold for 3 seconds.
Of course their perspective is that nobody ever dies unless it’s intentional or reckless behavior. They have no perspective on how these things really play, they weren’t involved in actually trying to subdue a threatening person. They think everyone should just be elite operators who take out the threat with ease and without being at risk themselves. It’s not Penny’s fault that he had to restrain a dangerous man. He didn’t know how to properly apply a sleeper hold, perhaps, but that doesn’t mean he’s not allowed to intervene. He tries to subdue the man in a way that wouldn’t kill him.
You missed my point.
No. I didn't. Your actual point was buried under the largest and leading paragarph, which was a non-sequitur.
People don't think criminals shouldn't get hurt because they think Batman movies are instructional videos. They think criminals shouldn't get hurt because they think that makes them a good person and they need everyone else to think they're good people.
More likely the stand byers, and the grand jury, possess these delusions.
A bit like a sitting president stating that cops should "aim for their legs." Pure fucking fantasy.
The same morons who want to "shoot the gun out of the bad guy's hand".
Or shoot them in the leg.
I knew a cop who was disciplined for deliberately shooting a suspect in the leg instead of the torso. The perp was coming at him with a fireplace poker.
He should be given an award for protecting citizens. He took the trash out.
Only Capitol officers who shoot unarmed women deserve awards.
Don’t fear the revolt!
(insurrection)!
All our times have come
Here, but now they’re gone
Seasons don’t fear the revolt
Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain
(We can be like they are)
Come on, baby
(Don’t fear the revolt)
Baby, take my hand
(Don’t fear the revolt)
We’ll be able to fly
Baby, I’m your man
La, la la, la la
La, la la, la la
Valentine is done
Here but now they’re gone
Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbs
Are together in eternity
(Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbitt)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Wessel
Horst and Babbs both wanted to grab political power through violence, and got back, what they were dishing out. Karma is a bitch! Live by the sword, die by the sword!
Refute it, bitch!
No can do. Everyone but Dems and Republicans understand that for every initiation of force there is unequal yet apposite reprisal force. Even the idiots that invaded and murdered Israelis are starting to get the picture. It's THAT obvious.
Unarmed women crawling through a window they asked a fellow rioter to smash out so they could invade a secured area of the United States Capitol Building.
Yeah, she should have gone around to the other entrance, where the cops were helping people to enter the building.
Just incredible how stupid some people are; but you certainly shut him up.
I thought the cops would have offered him a job.
I think he probably did deliberately kill him, but that okay in self-defense.
My father was an officer in the Navy and would often have to do shore patrol. He would tell me he would always have a marine along and whenever they ran into a drunken sailor, the marine would put a choke hold on him and knock him out.
Was this when Bert Hoover was prez and beer was a shoot-first felony?
When I stood Shore Patrol, they gave me a Billy Club and told me that I'd be jailed if I used it.
I'm about 85% sure that virtually all of the MSM reports about this incident at the time described Neely as a "Michael Jackson Impersonator", and never bothered to obtain or print any quotes from anyone with an account of events that was in any way similar to what all of the witnesses who testified in the trial.
I'll bet he was gentle with kids, looking to turn his life around, and thinking of going to college too.
For decades Reason advocated for criminal justice reform and I was right there with them. In my mind that meant holding cops and prosecutors accountable for violating civil rights and packing prisons with harmless individuals who violated unconstitutional drug laws. The Reason libertarians decided that supporting Soros funded "reform" prosecutors would be the answer. But they got rolled. As usual. This is a straightforward case of a citizen defending not only himself but others. This mealy mouthed both sides bullshit is yet another example of Reason beclowning itself to avoid confronting their own culpability. Fuck off Billy.
For decades Reason advocated for criminal justice reform and I was right there with them.
Yeah. Not entirely clear whether Reason always advocated for lenient treatment of thugs like some complicit, obnoxious über-Christian zealot or if they just progressively became their own libertine parody of one.
Paul Kersey 2024!
Got my vote.
"his jury at trial will be tasked with evaluating his case with a much higher standard of proof"
His New York jury will be made up of people who have already made up their minds that he's guilty. The prosecutor could read from the phone book at the trial and get a conviction.
There won't be even one juror fed up with lawlessness in NYC? Does the prosecutor get enough juror challenges to ensure a jury of rubber stamp bleeding hearts?
Per the rules I found, the size is 16 but only 12 have to agree to move the case forward.
https://nycourts.gov/courthelp/criminal/grandJury.shtml
Fear of retaliation will keep any wayward jurors in line.
The jury will be terrified that finding Penny not guilty will start a riot. When deliberation starts they will be able to hear the demonstrators chanting outside the courtroom.
If he isn't found guilty, you will hear the demonstrators yell "Hurry to the Walmart before everything is gone!" and then they'll firebomb a police car since that is an approved means of protest.
Remember, Mayor Adams described the Rittenhouse verdict as "Disgusting!". Penny's best bet is to hope he can survive prison until an appeal overturns his conviction.
I believe the jurors will be personally threatened as well.
The names of the jurors will probably be "accidentally" released, or the press will follow them home to identify them. The funny part is that if any juror reports that they have been threatened, they will be removed from the jury pool for being prejudiced!
Correct.
A riot in retalaition for lawful government action?
I heard a rumor that constituted Insurrection®™.
Giuliani could've posthumously deputized the whack job. That would make Mr Hero a cop-killer, hence retroactively liable for full asset forfeiture and a death sentence.
Maybe Penny should have just let the guy go so he could have killed a few people. That's apparently the NYC standard.
Not a marine but a soldier. We were taught in hand to hand combat to keep going until they can't resist anymore. We were taught to flip them onto the ground and kick their kidneys, stomp their head and major joints etc. not to let them get back up. At no point were we taught to consider their, our opponents safety, it was all about our safety. We were taught, in essence, not to fight fairly but to fight till the end. Only stop when they can no longer resist and pose a threat. I doubt the Marines are much different. In fact, I'm betting they're even more hard core considering the Marine Corps spends far more time on hand to hand than the Army does. Our hand to hand combat was only suppose to be a last resort, and only to buy time until we could arm ourselves (e.g. get more ammo, or functioning weapon) at which time we were taught to go to the weapon and put them down hard. My nephew was high and getting in my face, looking for a fight, I flipped him with a hip throw, but didn't follow through. My Dad broke it up (also ex soldier) and like he told my nephew 'you're lucky he let you back up, because that isn't the way we're trained.' If I had wanted to, I would have dropped a knee to his back after flipping him, followed by rabbit punches to the head a kick to the head etc. but it was my nephew, and I was just trying to defuse the situation, not hurt him. If he had been some rando, I doubt I would have been that forgiving. I also had over a hundred pounds on him. Anyone saying his training would have made him aware of when to stop doesn't understand the training. We aren't trained to incapacitate and detain. We're trained to eliminate the threat however possible. Hand to hand combat is the last resort, and when you have to resort to it, it's because you have no alternative and then you do whatever is necessary and keep doing it until the threat is eliminated. One way or the other.
This is the basis of the idea of self offence. Self defence, stop force when I have a reasonable chance of survival. Self offence, stop force when the threat is gone
Indeed.
I wonder how many self-defense classes for women include segments on "make sure your assailant is still OK".
I'm not sure if that matters much. I would submit that the standard for soldiers in combat is different than the standard for people in a subway, and that if former soldiers are killing people because they were trained to kill, that's a problem.
Yes, we must keep the subways safe for criminals.
Maximum force, a phrase he keeps using doesn't even have a fucking definition. He pulled it out of his ass. He needs to change his name to Obviouslynotsmart.
Not my point. My point is that saying his training makes him aware of how to judge when enough force to incapacitate but not killed is bullshit. The training isn't to incapacitate, it's to put them down so they can't get back up. Trying to use his training as grounds to show that he committed excessive force is bullshit, because it is misrepresenting what his training actually was.
Brilliant defence. You're admitting that his "training" was to kill his opponent. Fair enough, that's exactly what he's been accused of doing.
However, since he (therefore) deliberately killed someone in the civilian world, where he does not have the same privileges (and where his opponents have a right not to be killed), he should face a criminal trial. Which he is.
Somehow, I don't think Penny's actual lawyers are going to be using your argument.
where his opponents have a right not to be killed
Someone who is on the attack does not have that right, even in the civilian world.
Yes use of deadly force is warranted when you are threatened by someone promising to kill you or others, moron. He didn’t deliberately kill someone but death occurred because his training isn’t to subdue but to eliminate the threat. When someone is screaming they’re going to kill someone and is making threatening moves towards other people, deadly force is authorized. You’re fucking stupid if you think otherwise.
This wasn't a tiff over a drink, the man killed was threatening to kill other people, therefore he had no right to expect not to be killed, as he instigated the situation and made threats to kill others and made motions as if he was going to attack other people. This wasn't a bar fight, this was someone threatening to kill others and making threatening motions which made others fear for their lives, which makes it justifiable homicide, as it was self defense. God, you people are morons.
it was all about our safety. We were taught, in essence, not to fight fairly but to fight till the end. Only stop when they can no longer resist and pose a threat.
No offense as I think you already know, but it's not about your safety. It's about whatever you're protecting. If Penny choked out Neely and, a week later he's back on the same subway car, the situation is worse for everyone involved. Penny certainly isn't/wasn't thinking that way when he choked Neely out but, as indicated, the idea of the training is to neutralize the threat specifically so that everyone else can worry about the particulars of what constitutions "neutralize" later.
The training and mindset are, in no way, unique to his training as a soldier. He may've practiced more regimentedly than your average civilian and/or had it spelled out more clearly that he was to protect things via the expenditure of life... or not.
recounted that Neely was making “half-lunge movements” and coming within “a half a foot of people.”
Speaking as someone who has been on the receiving end of this behavior by crazy meth addicts, it’s incredibly disconcerting…
Not any more disconcerting than crazy drunk alcoholics. I've seen drunks get punched out for that behavior. Not killed.
I'm not sure what your point is. If my street corners and greenspaces were stacked to the rafters in shanty towns full of crazy, screaming, aggressive alcoholics, then I'd be talking about that instead.
First, it's easier to knock out a drunk, because alcohol is a depressant, but someone high on meth is on an upper. Two different scenarios. Secondly, you can kill someone with a single punch. Third, ever try to knock out someone on meth? If not, shut the fuck up. There is a reason soldiers, pilots etc are given ephedrine as opposed to alcohol when going into combat.
Were the drunks telling people that "Someone is gonna die today", or that they "would kill anyone"?
Well, since every citizen is trained to tell the difference between someone going unconscious, and just going limp to get you to stop winning the fight, I suppose we need to make an example.
Considering he was a trained Marine veteran, I suppose he should have been more aware of what he was doing than "every citizen".
No, no he doesn't. Because his training wasn't how to use force to subdue, but how to use force to put someone down so they don't get back up. Obviously, you never served or you would understand he isn't trained like a police officer. He is trained to use the maximum amount of force necessary to protect himself. You've obviously never served and never been in a fight.
It's a problem that we're seeing grow as society pushes in a very soft direction. A man who grew up getting in fights knows how quickly it can go from a controlled situation to one threatening his own life. A world where words are the only conflict people understand is one that is ignorant of physical reality.
I avoid fights because I don't want to be put in the position where I need to use lethal force. I don't have the size or fighting experience to be confident that I can subdue a larger or even more motivated man. That leaves me with the options of disabling or possibly killing my opponent.
Police go to their tool belt because it takes a ton of training plus time to retain a combat physique where they could feel confident in physically subduing dangerous people with minimal harm. In a world full of crazy people I'd rather lean on military training and have the capacity to put down an aggressor to eliminate harm
My father taught me to things about fighting. Never go looking for a fight. And if a fight can't be avoided, there is no such thing as fighting fair, do whatever it takes to win. I've passed that on to my kids. The idea that you have to fight fair is just pure bullshit, mainly espoused by people who live in gated communities and would shit their pants if ever actually confronted.
The part of this which apparently eludes you is that neither civilians nor police are legally allowed to use "maximum force".
If that's the test, Penny's going to prison.
Bullshit. If in acting to defend yourself or others from a reasonable fear of injury or death, yes maximum force is allowed for both civilians and police. Where the fuck do you get that bullshit from, that it isn't? Fuck, that's never been the case. The maximum force needed to protect yourself and others is authorized if you have a reasonable fear for your life or others even for police officers, that's always been the case. God you're a moron.
Personally I blame New York City. They removed Penny's ability to hold a gun on the guy until Police arrived.
If someone gets killed, of course there should be a trial. This isn't the Wild West.
No. If it is self defense no trial is necessary. You only try when you eliminate the idea of self defense. Most self defense cases never go to trial because self defense is totally legal, even when someone gets killed.
Most self defense cases do not include people claiming to have been trained to use "maximum force", and admitting to having used "maximum force".
You're right, on these facts, no trial is necessary.
How is that relevant?
Maximum force? Shooting someone is maximum force and happens all the time in self defense, moron. God, it's like arguing with a third grader. You haven't yet made a pertinent point and define maximum force, because that isn't a legal term. If I shoot someone who is threatening to kill me, it's self defense, how much more maximum can you get? Fuck, what an asinine argument. Maximum force, did you pull that phrase out of your ass to sound smarter than you really are? Because it just makes you sound stupid, it's a made up phrase used to railroad someone who used force to defend themselves, it happens all the time and quite often the perpetrator ends up dead and the victim doesn't stand trial because there is no such definition legally.
I've never understood the level of stupidity that willingly demonstrates the inability to tell the difference between (e.g.) Alec Baldwin killing someone out of negligence and not going to trial and someone like Penny or Rittenhouse going to trial for self-defense and negligent homicide.
"This isn’t the Wild West."
I'm guessing you don't get out much; spend some time on a subway in such an area and get back to us. You can indeed be killed out there, and none of your precious beliefs as to how it "ought to be" will protect you.
You can feel when a man goes limp
Most women I know would agree.
[covers eyes, shields smirk from "grower, not show-er"]
And pretending to go limp is actually a street fighting tactic, to lure your opponent into loosening their hold so that you can break their hold and then attack them. And no, you can't always feel when someone goes limp.
To my knowledge, Daniel Penny didn't look to get into this situation, but rather reacted to the situation. The outcome was fatal for Jordan Neely the homeless man who was threatening the passengers.
If you place yourself in the shoes of Daniel Penny. Where you have commit to take action against a threat. You are in a Fight mode and more or less running in automatic mode with your training. I not sure that I would be aware that I would need to release the choke hold. I'm afraid that I would still be full of adrenaline.
I don't see Daniel Penny being guilty of either Manslaughter or Murder. I also don't see Daniel Penny as a hero, but rather a normal citizen who reacted in a terrible situation and the outcome was less than optimal.
Penny's attorneys argue that the victim, Jordan Neely, was "insanely threatening" at the time of the incident, i.e. what that even means, much less how do you prove it, and what is a permitted 'open handed' response to it is for a jury to decide i.e. congratulations, you just got your client indicted.
Sounds rude and not in relation to anything she ever posted before, but we should bow to your clearly superior knowledge of being a cunt, I suppose.
No’Lynn’, that would be you. You leftists really are filth. I look forward to the day, hopefully very soon, where the American people turn on you Democrats and exterminate you like the vermin you are.
Best to save yourself, the pain, and commit suicide.
When your only tool is a cunt, then every problem looks like a dick.