2nd Circuit Rejects New York's Default Rule Against Guns in Businesses
The court upheld several other location-specific gun bans, along with the state's "good moral character" requirement for a carry permit.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit recently upheld New York's requirement that applicants for handgun carry permits demonstrate "good moral character," deeming it consistent with the Second Amendment. But the appeals court enjoined enforcement of the state's demand that applicants submit information about their social media accounts, deeming it inconsistent with the First Amendment as well as the Second.
The 2nd Circuit also delivered a mixed verdict on New York regulations that prohibit even permit holders from carrying guns in specified locations. The court rejected the state's default rule against carrying guns in businesses open to the public while upholding several other bans on firearms in places that legislators deemed "sensitive."
The decision by a unanimous three-judge panel, published on Friday, addresses four challenges to regulations that New York enacted after the Supreme Court's 2022 ruling in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen, which upheld the right to carry guns in public for self-defense. In Bruen, the Court rejected New York's requirement that residents show "proper cause" for bearing arms, which it said was not "consistent with this Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation."
New York legislators responded by eliminating the "proper cause" criterion while retaining a reference to "good moral character," which they defined as "the essential
character, temperament and judgement necessary to be entrusted with a weapon
and to use it only in a manner that does not endanger oneself or others." That requirement, U.S. District Judge Glenn T. Suddaby concluded last year in Antonyuk v. Hochul, "is just a dressed-up version of the State's improper 'special need for self-protection' requirement."
Suddaby found "historical support for a modern law providing that a license shall be issued or renewed except for applicants who have been found, based on their
past conduct, to be likely to use the weapon in a manner that would injure themselves or others (other than in self-defense)." That standard, he wrote, "is objective, easily applied, and finds support in numerous analogues that deny the right to carry to citizens based on their past conduct." By contrast, he said, New York's "good moral character" requirement gave licensing officials "open-ended discretion" to reject applicants based on a subjective standard—precisely the situation that the Supreme Court had deemed unconstitutional in Bruen.
In overruling Suddaby, the three 2nd Circuit judges—Dennis Jacobs, Gerard Lynch, and Eunice Lee—concede that licensing officials might violate the Second Amendment by applying the "good moral character" standard in an "arbitrary" way. "We recognize that 'good moral character' is a spongy concept susceptible to abuse," Jacobs et al. write. "But such abuses, should they become manifest, can still be vindicated in court as they arise." While "we do not foreclose as-applied challenges to particular character-based denials," they say, Suddaby erred by deeming New York's standard unconstitutional on its face. "The provision is not invalid in all of its applications," the panel says, because "a reasoned denial of a carry license to a person who, if armed, would pose a danger to themselves, others, or to the public is consistent with the well-recognized historical tradition of preventing dangerous individuals from possessing weapons."
The 2nd Circuit did, however, agree with Suddaby that New York went too far by requiring carry permit applicants to submit "a list of all former and current social media accounts from the preceding three years." That demand, the court notes, impinges on the First Amendment right to engage in pseudonymous speech as well as the Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. "Although the review of public social media posts by a licensing officer poses no constitutional difficulties," the panel says, "requiring applicants to disclose even pseudonymous names under which they post online imposes an impermissible infringement on Second Amendment rights that is unsupported by analogues in the historical record and moreover presents serious First Amendment concerns."
The 2nd Circuit also agreed with Suddaby (and with U.S. District Judge John L. Sinatra Jr.) that New York had failed to justify its rule that guns are prohibited in all businesses open to the public unless the owner posts "clear and conspicuous signage" allowing them or "has otherwise given express consent." That provision "functionally creates a universal default presumption against carrying firearms in public places, seriously burdening lawful gun owners' Second Amendment rights," Jacobs et al. note. "That burden is entirely out of step with that imposed by the proffered analogues, which appear to have created a presumption against carriage only on private property not open to the public."
While the appeals court enjoined that restriction in its entirety, it provided a narrower remedy for plaintiffs who challenged New York's ban on guns in places of worship. Micheal Spencer, pastor of His Tabernacle Family Church in upstate New York, challenged that rule, arguing that it unconstitutionally interfered with the armed communal defense that he and his congregants viewed as a religious duty. The 2nd Circuit, which agreed that the provision was problematic under the First Amendment in this context, barred New York from enforcing it against Spencer or members of his church.
The appeals court rejected all the other challenges to New York's location-specific gun bans, either because it determined that the plaintiffs lacked standing or because it concluded that the provisions were consistent with the Second Amendment. The panel's analysis of the latter issue is notably less demanding than Suddaby's, requiring fewer historical analogs and applying them at a higher level of generality.
The 2nd Circuit, for example, says banning guns in parks, zoos, and theaters fits a "well-established and representative tradition of regulating firearms in quintessentially
crowded places." And it says that tradition, combined with early laws prohibiting people from carrying or firing guns in public while intoxicated, provides ample support for New York's ban on guns in bars and restaurants that serve alcohol.
Judges obviously disagree about how the Bruen test should be applied to newly established gun-free zones in states such as New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Hawaii, and California. But an excessively lenient approach, if it allows states to bar permit holders from carrying guns in most public places, runs the risk of nullifying the right upheld in Bruen.
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…shall not be infringed. This is simple.
Now do switch blades.
Shall not be infringed. See, it's easy!
Now do brass knuckles.
Subsequent laws notwithstanding, the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution recognizes (and should protect) our right to keep and bear brass knuckles. It does not recognize our right to start whaling away at someone with brass knuckles for no good reason.
There's a National Rifle Association which lobbies congress, finances campaigns and launches court cases. I am not aware of a National Brass Knuckle, Switch Blade or Sap Association, the ugly ducklings of New York's proscribed weaponry.
https://kniferights.org
The organization doesn't have a very high profile. I don't believe I've seen a single Reason article on knives and such weaponry. Though I could be wrong, I believe in some locales knives are subject to even more draconian restrictions.
You are in fact wrong. There have been several such articles. The topic has also come up in general articles about "arms" including both firearms and others.
I've seen plenty of articles on restrictions to firearms, perhaps once a week, this one included. The only mention of knives etc is in our comments. I suspect the reason for this is our emotional attachment and iconic status of guns, as well as the strenuous efforts of the gun lobbies.
The restrictions against non-firearm weaponry are arguably an even greater infringement, given that they are cheaper and handier. If you're very poor, economics will prevent you from owning a firearm, no matter what rules the government sets. That's not the case with brass knuckles, for example.
Brickbat: Knives Out 4.27.23
Or, closer to 'home',
Volokh: Hawaii Butterfly Knife Ban Violates Second Amendment 8.7.23
Am I obligated to fight for people's rights to carry knives and brass knuckles for some reason?
Only if you want the second amendment to be followed and is something worth fighting for. People's rights are your rights.
Which is why it’s important to stand up for Trump against these unconstitutional prosecutions. Allowing the democrats to pursue political witch hunts with no basis in law cannot stand.
Well, it's that or you need to review the definition of "Libertarian" and consider whether you should forget you ever heard it.
Any damn thing that can be used to defend the Individual Right to Life, Liberty, and Property which, when used, does not threaten or violate the same Individual Rights of innocent third parties.
Shit simple, and if you don't like it, Fuck Off Nazi Watermelon Rickshaw Boy!
One can bear a blade as easily as a gun.
Charge a gun, flee a knife.
No. Charge a gun and you die.
Shoot. Don't talk, just shoot.
" Charge a gun and you die."
It's difficult to out flee bullets. At close quarters, an assailant brandishing a knife can do much damage. Guns have to be aimed precisely in your direction.
Say you know nothing about guns without saying you know nothing about guns. Ever heard of a fucking shotgun, and under 20 feet, you don't have to be precise with a rifle or a pistol at a human sized target, pointing is more than adequate.
"Ever heard of a fucking shotgun"
Ever tried to out run buck shot?
"Say you know nothing about guns without saying you know nothing about guns."
You wouldn't say that if I had a knife in my hand.
Odds are you don’t know how to use one. Most people can’t knife fight for shit.
You don't have to have much skill to cause damage with a knife. Especially if your opponent doesn't have one and for some stupid reason charges you.
Well, yeh, but if someone get in close enough with their knife, you won’t be able to swing the gun fast enough to hit the target. But that is the problem with longer guns - they aren’t nearly as maneuverable in close quarters as knives or handguns.
I've heard of a shotgun, I even own a few. I have not heard of any kind of shotgun designed for fucking. Is this similar in theory to shotgunning a bong?
A real shotgun does hurl a wad of pellet out but the spread isn't all that much. At the 21 foot range, where the decision to charge/flee becomes important, the pellets are still in, with the widest choke, at most a double fist sized mass. Even out to 50 feet and beyond they aren't spreading all that much.
The idea of a shotgun derives from a fowling peice which used the spreading cloud of small balls of lead to kill birds which only need to be hit by one or two of the speeding pellets to be killed due to their fragile structure.
When you hit an animal within the 21 ft range with the typical shotgun you typically get the majority of the pellets into the creature and leave it a bloody mess of unidentifiable tissue. I saw a rabbit my brother shot with a 12 Guage using birdshot at that range. Maybe if you were real hungry you could make soup...
Soldier medic,
I respectfully disagree.
Just go on the active self protection site on YouTube.
Lots and lots of gun fights caught on surveillance video.
You’ll be amazed at how many gun fights take place just out of touching distance, both sides empty their magazines, and no one is hit.
I would also like to add that plenty of criminals have guns that are unloaded, loaded with the wrong ammunition, or simply don’t work.
In any of those surprisingly common situations, running away from the “armed criminal” is a viable option
A human in decent health can cover 21 feet in less than a second. A person who pulled a gun on you and didn't shoot right away is trusting in their brain reacting to your movement. Now, it is possible the guy with the gun has those hair trigger reflexes and has spend hundreds of hours practicing with the gun and knows it better than his own cock.
However, better odds are he got it from some other crook, doesn't know how to shoot, probably still has the safety on and it may not even have bullets in it. People who turn to a life of crime are unlikely to be missed by NASA when you beat them to death with their empty gun.
A knife however does not need to be loaded, have the safety taken off, or be aimed well. One can quite accidentally put oneself in the hospital by mishandling a knife in one's own kitchen.
Why?
In South Dakota, Nunchucks, Butterfly Knives and all the other crap you can get at a carnival are legal to carry concealed. Or open I suppose. I want to make a damask pattern battle axe and see I I can get away with open carry next Rally.
I think you mean Damascus, unless maybe it's a battle axe shaped throw pillow.
Fucking spell check...
Will the sheath be made of rich Corinthian leather?
🙂
😉
Where I live switch blades, large knives, small knives, brass knuckles, collapsing batons, sharp sticks - all are legal to possess and carry (open or concealed) without needing a permission slip from the state.
"good moral character," which they defined as "the essential
character, temperament and judgement necessary to be entrusted with a weapon and to use it only in a manner that does not endanger oneself or others."
"Shall not be infringed"
Just two different ways of saying the same thing, really. Exactly the same really.
"good moral character" requirement for a carry permit.
That's good news. At least I know if I move to New York that barrier to getting my carry permit won't be standing in my way.
Then all criminals are by definition prevented from carrying a gun, Right?
No more crooks with guns.
Peace in our time.
The cops can punish the crook caught with an illegal gun. Is that too hard for you to understand?
So why don't they? Most criminals caught with firearms plea out to a lesser charge or have the charges dropped. But I, who have never been convicted of a crime has to prove I am of good morals character. What does good moral character mean anyhow? How do you judge if someone is a danger to themselves or others, if they've never been convicted or even charged with a crime? Would you ban my nephew who has TBI and PTSD from an injury he received last year while deployed? Oh, you volunteered to serve this country, never been charged or convicted of a crime, were injured through no fault of your own, but because veterans with TBI and PTSD have a higher risk of suicide, you have to surrender the very rights you served to protect.
Note he was injured after being attacked, without provocation, by a fellow service member who command knew was violent and who had been turned in for his targeting of my nephew by his squad leader already that deployment. My nephew was laying on his bunk listening to music and this guy came over and slammed him to the floor by flipping his bunk over (top bunk onto a concrete floor). The ER physician said my nephew was lucky to be alive and he had to be medevaced to Germany from Kuwait. When the MPs arrested the guy, he said he knew he could seriously harm or kill my nephew but he had no regrets and would do it again. Command had done nothing about this guys years of anger management and aggressive actions. Only after someone was seriously injured did they decide (and actually it wasn't even my nephew's command that decided but theater command) to do something. Haven't heard if he's been court martials yet.
A coworker asked me last night if I missed it. Yeah, I miss the guys I served with, but not bullshit like that.
I am disappointed that none of the judges dissected that phrase "themselves or others" into its components. It is being a danger to others that should bar one from possessing firearms, not to oneself. (There can, in fact, be legitimate reasons for suicide.)
Cops can already punish the crook for doing the thing that actually makes him a crook. Is that too hard for you to understand?
What if they're not caught?
With the long history of government in general and New York in particular of using subjective criteria like this to deny all manner of constitutional rights, the naïveté of these judges is Olympic level.
They just want to stop kids from being killed in drive-by shootings!
Don't we all. What are your thought on stabbings? Or pipe or baseball bat beatings?
By upholding laws that have nothing to do with drive-by shootings?
There's a saying somewhere about roads paved with "good intentions". Maybe you should look it up.
Okay, Z Crazy, reading your comment below, maybe you were trying to be sarcastic. If so, it didn't come across that way here.
Aren't drive by shootings illegal there?
As long as you're a member of the Legitimate Businessman's Social Club, you should have no trouble demonstrating that you're a man of good moral character.
Just make sure to use the words "fuck" or "fuckin'" every other word and even split up existing words and insert "fuckin'" in the middle of them. You'll fit in just fine in New York.
🙂
😉
Does anyone remember good cause requirements by some states and cities to be allowed to possess a handgun. And that a bare desire for self-defense isn’t good enough cause.
Why not expand this concept?
If cops want to search someone’s home to investigate crime, they should not be required to have good cause. The people inside should be the ones required to have good cause to stop the cops. And a bare desire for privacy shouldn’t be good enough cause.
Or what about getting a lawyer? People should be required to show good cause before being allowed to have a lawyer. And being accused of a crime shouldn’t be good enough cause to have a lawyer.
What about not being tortured as punishment for crimes? The criminal should be required to show good cause as to why he shouldn’t be tortured. And a bare desire to avoid pain shouldn’t be considered good enough cause.
What’s wrong with this? Wouldn’t we be safer from the crook and the mugger and the carjacker and the gang member if we adopted these good cause requirements?
While we are at it, maybe presume everyone is guilty and they have to prove their innocence…
We are half way there; for now, it only applies to conservatives, but it is beginning to apply to disfavored fascists.
Does anyone remember good cause requirements by some states and cities to be allowed to possess a handgun. And that a bare desire for self-defense isn’t good enough cause.
Why not expand this concept?
Because I refuse to beg permission from any gov't entity to exercise a right.
There are almost zero state level gun laws in Idaho. I can sell a gun in a gas station parking lot to a complete stranger.
How does Idaho crime rate compare to the blue states/cities?
Pretty minimal. A lot of my clients over there are normally strapped. Which has noticeable deterrent value to violent miscreants. The like soft targets, like those four college kids that got offed in Moscow last year.
I would also like to add that plenty of criminals have guns that are unloaded, loaded with the wrong ammunition, or simply don’t work.
In any of those surprisingly common situations, running away from the “armed criminal” is a viable option
If only you knew that the gun was unloaded, filled with the wrong ammunition, or simply didn't work.
The first rule of gun safety dictates otherwise. All guns are loaded presumptively.
Idaho Bob,
You can do the same thing here in Florida.
I usually sell my used guns to strangers in the Walmart parking lot
Why not expand this concept?
You're speaking to mostly libertarian-minded people here. A basic tenet of libertarianism is maximum personal autonomy, limited government power. All of the expansions you mention are expansions of state power. They are all the exact opposite of the concept of a good cause requirement for private gun ownership from a libertarian point of view.
Not to say there aren't a few here that aren't liking your ideas...
Not to say there aren’t a few here that aren’t liking your ideas…
Holy shit. Even I don't know what that means. I miss the edit function.
Simpler: There are likely a few here that would like all your "expansions."
Even a person of "bad character" has the constitutional right to keep and bear arms, just as they have the right to free speech, speedy trial, etc.
I was worried about that. My morals are nonexistant and my charachter is pretty suspect as well. I wonder if that's why they wouldn't cook my burger rare when I was at Niagra Falls a few years back.
Who's morals are we going to be judging by? And how do we decide there is evidence that they are a danger to themselves or others?
Political affiliation. This is how blue state want to regulate.
whose
No one gives a fuck. Gee your phone changed it and you didn't catch it ha ha ain't I smart. Fucking moron sit on a pole and spin.
Thanks for asking. Whose is possessive. Like its. Who's is a contraction meaning who is, like it's.
The English Language is devolving. Soon all we will do is grunt and point.
I once had to school soldiermedic76, who claims to have a PhD, on the difference between 'then' and 'than.'
Weird Al Yankovich has a song "Word Crimes". If you don't know his works I suggest looking it up. He manages to cover all of the evils of internet grammar.
Nobody but you and the idiot Mr Gobblygook fucking cares about a stupid mistake. It's because you two can't debate the actual subject so you nitpick a stupid fucking mistake that no one fucking cares about.
If you can't learn from your mistakes, someone else might.
"a stupid fucking mistake that no one fucking cares about."
It's not a stupid fucking mistake. It's natural to make, as whose is an exception. Most possessives use an apostrophe. It sounds trivial, but I bet 99% of English learners, and semi-literates make the same mistake.
Mumble, grunt grunt grunt, point point, ug! Ugh! Ah ah ah AH!
When reading the story below, folks, remember:
Totalitarians think that only Police and Military can be trusted with firearms, only Government knows what's best to put in your body, and only Government is competent enough to say who can style hair:
🙂
😉
Former Gastonia officer accused of selling drugs, using badge to buy guns
By Ken Lemon, wsoctv.com
December 13, 2023 at 5:27 pm EST
https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/former-gastonia-police-officer-arrested-faces-32-felonies/AMIWI5QCVVCVFAUBNN4ZXQ2ZZ4/
The Second Circuit's rejection of New York's business gun rule is a reminder of the importance of gun safety. Owning a pistol requires responsibility, including regular cleaning. This requires cleaning brushes, special products and rags, and much more, which you can learn about by reading article https://www.agmglobalvision.com/index.php?route=extension/blog/blog&blog_id=57. This not only maintains the functionality of the weapon, but is also the key to safe use, which is important for everyone who deals with firearms.