Jordan Neely Wasn't Killed by the System
Opposing sides of the debate around a New York City subway homicide have found unlikely common ground.

News that a mentally ill man had been killed last week on a New York City subway and the conversation that followed almost immediately became a synecdoche for the wider social debate about rising crime, public disorder, racial divides, and attitudes towards the homeless population. But whether they realize it or not, those on opposite ends of that discussion seem to agree on a core point: It was, in some sense, the fault of "the system" that Jordan Neely was choked to death on the F train.
"Had he been in treatment, Jordan Neely's death in a subway car may have been prevented," wrote Manhattan Institute Senior Fellow Stephen Eide in City Journal. The City Journal has devoted a great deal of energy to arguing that recent upticks in urban disorder suggest a need for a more punitive or carceral approach. On this account, if Neely hadn't been out and about—because he either was in jail or perhaps involuntarily in a mental health institution—he wouldn't have died.
But that line of thinking often fails to account for the fact that Neely was engaged with the criminal justice system repeatedly throughout the course of his life. He was released from Rikers Island, the notorious New York City jail, in February of this year, reportedly after spending 15 months behind bars. It is true that Neely would not have been available to be killed on the subway last week had he been indefinitely locked away, but we don't lock people up in order to protect them from being choked.
Eide, refreshingly, is aware of these limitations. "Criminal-justice reformers might point out, correctly, that Neely's many past arrests did not stabilize him," he noted. "But nor did whatever contact he may have had with homeless outreach teams, social workers, safe-haven shelters, and outpatient clinics." This is also true, though I'd argue it hints at the fact that the system cannot prevent every harm, no matter how many resources society grants it.
The inverse conclusion is more popular, though, and it traverses typical tribal lines. "We should demand a full accounting from all of these [New York City] officials," says Errol Louis in New York magazine. "Neely, it seems, had encountered many of the clinics, hospitals, and social-service organizations we collectively (and optimistically) call a social safety net, including the Bowery Residents' Committee and Bellevue Hospital." Though Louis doesn't label the carceral system as the perpetrator, he arrives at a similar judgment: The government could have saved Neely, given the chance.
That this is a dubious claim should be apparent from Louis' own accounting of the tragedy. Public and private actors alike sought to intervene in Neely's life for years. He had worked with an Intensive Mobile Treatment team composed of mental health street counselors who provide services to homeless people. The Bowery Residents' Committee, which specifically works in subways, had been in touch with Neely since 2017. He had been in and out of Bellevue Hospital for several years. Outreach workers interacted with him multiple times in the months leading up to his killing.
New York is a city of over 8 million people, many of whom struggle with mental health issues. About one in every 120 New Yorkers is homeless, according to the Bowery Mission, which translates to about 70,000 people. No government, even with the most robust and muscular of programs, will be able to save every resident suffering from poor mental health, a lack of housing, or both, as the two often go hand in hand.
"I don't have food. I don't have a drink, I'm fed up," Neely yelled, according to Juan Alberto Vazquez, a freelance journalist who captured Daniel Penny holding him in a chokehold for several minutes. Neely reportedly suffered from schizophrenia and depression, with his mental health deteriorating after his mother was murdered and her body stuffed in a suitcase when he was 14 years old. "I don't mind going to jail and getting life in prison. I'm ready to die," he said.
He died shortly thereafter. People will argue about how reasonable it was for Penny to initially restrain Neely. But "the system" was not on the subway with him that day. Daniel Penny was, though, and he allegedly choked Neely for 15 minutes. Vazquez's video, which caught a portion of that interaction, shows Neely writhing, attempting to clutch up at a subway seat, one leg slowly kicking. Eventually, another passenger can be heard telling Penny that he was "gonna catch a murder charge."
"My wife is ex-military," the passenger said. "You're gonna kill him now."
Penny maintains he did nothing wrong. "Mr. Neely had a documented history of violent and erratic behavior, the apparent result of ongoing and untreated mental illness," his attorneys said in a statement. "For too long, those suffering with mental illness have been treated with indifference."
It's in this vein that Penny finds unlikely common ground with writers like Louis. "Jordan Neely was already dead," he wrote in his New York piece, metaphorically put to death by government negligence.
Inconvenient to that claim is that the government was deeply involved in trying to help Neely. And he wasn't, in fact, dead. Until a man killed him—something no complaint about the system can explain away.
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I'm happy to read this headline.
I still haven't figured out how the fuck other people's mental health issues are my fault. Yet, somehow, the bleeding hearts seem to blame me (and everyone else who is helpless to do anything) when they feel bad about it.
I have had encounters with someone who had a psychotic break. They are dangerous. They are not rational. Nothing I say or do will ever convince them to act in any way other than what the voices in they head say, or whatever it is that drives their actions. Anyone thinks they can do better, they can have at it, but don't pull any of this "we" shit unless they are talking about themselves and the mouse in their pocket, I want nothing to do with it.
They are not blaming you or anyone in particular. It's a rehash of the "society's fault" that was around in the 70s. It's a way to deflect responsibility.
I see this crap frequently on the train. I saw a black woman throw a guy like that off the train. She just grab him and bum rushed him out the door. He tried to get back in when the doors started to close and she front kick is as back out. Then she turns around and says people are just trying to get to work and don't need that bullshit.
Btw, that was also on the F train. Not that the F is any worse than any other.
If that's the F Train, I'd sure as hell not want to see the S Train or D train.
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F train is like a dream compared to the 7. Let's not forget the A when it gets to upper Manhattan or what about the 123 which is like going to a war zone.
That's the thing. It's not anyone in particular, but it is anyone who doesn't cowtow to THEIR idea of what should be done. Or that anything can be done.
That's the deal, I don't give a shit if they want to make an effort. It's their prerogative. But I want to reserve the right to not give a shit.
And I mean that about everything, BTW. Not just homeless. Global warming hysteria? Abortion debates? "Equity"? Tranny activism? Lots of stuff "Society" somehow should take care of according to someone. And, frankly, it's not my pig, not my farm.
I don't have solutions for some psychotic prick on the subway. Leave "society" the fuck out of it... they probably just want me to pay for it.
""That’s the thing. It’s not anyone in particular, but it is anyone who doesn’t cowtow to THEIR idea of what should be done.""
Disagree. I work with these types. They are also blaming their own institutions for failure too. It's the collective mindset and they are aware they are part of it. I'm guessing they will eventually blame the lack of resources (money).
And “lack of coordination among agencies,” a problem to be solved by…well, I’m seeing a pattern here.
As a matter of fact, better coordination *might* help *if done right,* which it probably won’t be.
An interesting thing. Coordination is time consuming. Better coordination can lead to better outcomes for individuals served, but you serve less people. It can also be hampered by staff turnover which is big in this industry.
I’m guessing they will eventually blame the lack of resources (money).
Which is where it comes back to me. I pay an assload in taxes. Where does that money come from? Around here, it just gets doled out of the general fund like candy on Halloween, candy that I pay for and that the folks in Sacramento take credit for on election day.
They can blame their own institutions all they want, but they're still trying to drag me into it.
Also, if you haven't ever seem someone with my mindset of minding my own business be chastised as "heartless" (I quote a troll from THIS message board recently) for not caring about their pet issue, you're either wearing blinders or willful.
I'm not a warm and fuzzy person. I've been called "heartless". In some ways I am, depending on what and whom you are talking about. Being called heartless really doesn't bother me. If we get into a SHTF situation, and I don't think we're too far away from that, it's us heartless bastards who'll still be around tomorrow morning when the sun comes up.
I kind of get what you're saying. You know, people like you (the isolationists) and the bleeding hearts as you call them are highly similar, you should think about it. The real issue I have with your view is that you're part of society. You can't just say leave me out of it. That's like when people say I didn't ask to be born or I didn't ask for my parents and so on. Come on bro, be reasonable. You were born, you are here. You don't have to be the leader, but you may have something good to contribute.
Actually, the "society's fault" dodge is to defend progressive policies.
Conservative policies that fail are NEVER called "society's fault"
F train.
Why does it feel like America is on the F Train?
Because you are a misfit and disaffected loser who disdains modern America.
Best troll since OBL.
Except he’s serious. I wonder if Arty has the balls to talk shit face to face with conservatives. I’m guessing not. I don’t think I’ve ever seen one of his kind that has any real balls without at least five more soyboy beta males backing them up.
Not Jordan Neely or you, right Kirkland? It's everyone else who's the crazy, disaffected losers. Never you and your nutball pals.
One cannot parody this shit.
Kirkland telling people they are disaffected losers if they can't handle "Modern America" where mentally troubled homeless people assault folks and get choked to death on a train.
Lol.
In modern forward looking cities no less.
Indeed. Cities such as San Francisco, L.A., Portland, Seattle, St, Louis, Chicago, Baltimore and Philly.
All modern bright shiny cities.
Don't get your flourishing cape caught in the door when somebody throws your ass off the F Train, Klinger!
No capes!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL3w73MAuIM
I seriously doubt Artie's that smart.
A witness stated "Neely yelled about being “fed up and hungry” and “tired of having nothing,” Neely also said, “I don’t care if I die. I don’t care if I go to jail. I don’t have any food … I’m done,”
At some point, Neely threw his jacket on the train’s floor, repeating he was ready to go to jail and get a life sentence. He was behaving erratically frightening some subway riders enough they moved to other parts of the train car.
So, just bc there was no IMMEDIATE risk of harm to a person doesn't mean what Penny did was unreasonable. He wasn't trying to kill him. He was simply trying to restrain him by putting him in a sleeper type hold designed to shut off blood to the brain, not oxygen. He wasn't trying to strangle or asphyxiate him. A sleeper hold is intended to shut off blood to the brain causing a person to pass out. They (Penny & 2 other passengers) placed him in a recovery position to protect him until help could arrive. This idea that people can't step in to help others- be it other passengers who COULD have been harmed by this erratic individual shouting & talking about going to prison & not caring- or be it Neely causing harm to HIMSELF. You're assuming Penny stepped in for no reason & that Neely shouting wasn't harming anyone. But you're either missing or ignoring the fact that he could have stepped in intending to PREVENT Neely from harming himself or someone else.
The idea he's now being charged for this is ludicrous. And everyone knows had a white man been subdued on the subway by a black man & died this wouldn't be happening & had it been a white homeless man subdued by a white man it wouldn't even have been newsworthy. When we stop indicting & charging crimes based on the race of the ppl involved we'll be in a much better place.
And the autocrats running the Biden consortium are having at us like a Neely was upon those in the subway car.
Only it is much worse, more organized and manipulative in its subversive style of chicanery and malefice.
Are we just going to sit there and be threatened with violence, or shall we like Mr. Penny mitigate and neutralize the threat of bodily harm to persons and self? It appears that Mr. Neely could have been high on PCP, where there is little that can be done aside from injection with a sedative.
How would you handle the joke hold?
I haven't read the City Journal piece, and so maybe there's some extra context needed here, but it seems to exactly account for the fact that Neely had been engaged with the criminal justice system... repeatedly.
He was going to die prematurely sooner or later, one way or another. Blaming his death on someone protecting himself and other passengers is ludicrous. Whether anyone likes it or not, Neely had more responsibility for his own death than anyone else. Whether he was competent enough to take that responsibility was apparently answered in the affirmative by "the system" many many times, and they were sort of almost right up until the last time they left him loose.
Neely was apparently choked to death by someone who was not in reasonable fear for his life or that of anyone else. He hasn't yet been charged, but I would expect he will be.
Cross your fingers statist. The worst thing an individual can do to the state is protect themselves or others.
In order for Penny’s unsanctioned killing to be defense, Neely would had to have posed a threat. Apparently he was yelling and throwing trash, which as I understand it is just good manners on a New York subway.
Nevermind.
Misread.
Is it "statist" to want laws against unlawful killing enforced?
Only if you're an anarchist, which I don't believe you are.
All of this can be fixed if we just get rid of the left.
Have you never been introduced to the notion that some folks "need" to be killed? I wasn't there, but from all I've heard, Jordan Neely fit into that category.
Neely won't be the last, I guarantee it. Especially when these nutbags are cold-cocking people and trying to shove them in front of the trains.
Expect to see a lot of homeless people in the coming years get clapped because they're seen as a dangerous threat to those around them.
Maybe.
Would be good if so.
But we're a pretty thoroughly tyrannized people.
Was he "choked to death"?
As far as I know, no cause of death has been released from the authorities.
The people involved, apparently put him in the "recovery position".
If the "choke hold", which doesn't do any "choking", had killed him, why would they have done that?
What does the toxicology report say?
George Floyd had no physical damage to his neck, but had lethal doses of a couple of drugs in his system.
Yes, the cause of death was determined to be “compression of neck (chokehold)” by the NYC medical examiner.
I have not heard about toxicology. He may very well have been high as a kite (like Floyd was).
Floyd was not choked. He most likely died because Kueng had his full body weight on Floyd's back, which prevented him from breathing sufficiently.
Just think of it as a very late-term abortion.
Could be worse. He could've been convicted of murder by a 12-0 jury and sentenced to death by an 8-4 split decision.
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This is also true, though I'd argue it hints at the fact that the system cannot prevent every harm, no matter how many resources society equips it with.
Where are the throngs of dangerous, threatening, screaming mentally ill people all over the train systems in other [insert list of western liberal democracies here]?
And by the way, my question might produce uneasy answers for everyone, including libertarians.
Maybe as Americans we'd be unwilling to abide those solutions or systems. The solutions might be unconstitutional, or at minimum, breaches of the various layers of due process we have here that are integral to our way of government AND our culture.
If you've ever had a raging meth addict "come at you", I can tell you from personal experience that it's very unsettling. And it happens... a lot. And in addition, we're now told that if we don't like it, we're snowflakes and are just too fragile to handle the realities of city living.
And anyone who has lived in one of these stellar bluer-than-blue-found-in-nature-blue cities for decades knows that while yes, there was always a seedy-side and potential for crime in the edgy, cool urban environment, it wasn't like this until ~2012.
Yes, New York in the 1970s and the 80s was a very rough place and 'mugging' was considered normal. But people got fed up with it and it turned around. But when every blue city becomes like New York of the 1970s/80s, you've got a big problem.
File this whole thing under: Things we used to know that we now pretend we don't.
For libertarians, the answer becomes relatively simple. "Get off my train, good sir, or I will shoot you."
This notion that we must tolerate someone- not merely being an annoyance, but a dangerous menace- in our midst, largely comes down to this being public property, where the owner (the State) has little interest in making it a safe place that people want to visit.
You generally don't see crazy and violent schizos assaulting passengers on the Disney World Monorail, or in the fountain in front of the Epcot Center. Homeless populations are almost completely a problem with public property, where the owner has no competitive or other incentive to do the difficult work necessary to ensure the property is safe and generally enjoyable.
Homeless populations are almost completely a problem with public property, where the owner has no competitive or other incentive to do the difficult work necessary to ensure the property is safe and generally enjoyable.
Except in those other [insert liberal democracies here]'s public property.
If public property itself alone caused the inevitable 'tragedy of the commons' then all public property everywhere should be filled with tents and meth addicts.
If we lived in libertopia, then yes, if I found myself standing on 'public property' I would shoot someone in the face and step over them if they threatened me sufficiently. But the public property in my area is owned by Soros-funded apparatchiks who will throw me in a dark hole if I were to do such a thing.
For funsies, I just looked up to see when Interstate 5 was built through Seattle. Construction was completed in 1969. So that public property was subject to the tragedy of the commons for over 40 years, but it didn't look like this until around 2012.
"If public property itself alone caused the inevitable ‘tragedy of the commons’"
I didn't say public property itself causes the 'tragedy of the commons'. But, by definition, you can't have a tragedy of the commons on private property. Show me private property with a homeless problem and I can guarantee you that 99 out of 100 times, that property has some sort of regulation or easement that treats it like public property.
I know what you meant. I was merely saying that somehow, somewhere, we were able to avoid this particular tragedy of the commons by enforcing the laws which were designed to protect the commons.
Those "no camping" signs used to mean something. Many other countries seem to have it figured out. But to us, it's a mystery of epic proportion that causes months of head scratching.
I'm too lazy to find the story and link to it, but a homeless guy parked his RV on a street in a Seattle neighborhood, and commenced to building a two story structure around it. Neighborhood residents called the city to have him removed, and a city spokesman literally made a public statement that essentially said, "We're really not sure what department would even handle this."
If you'd have called the city in 2002 about the same thing, they'd have known right away what department handled such a thing.
Yes, I agree 100% that the "commons" is where this problem WILL happen if there is going to be a problem (putting aside a millennia of shitty neighbors doing crap that affects neighbors through smoke, noise and other nasty behaviors) but our anti-freedom dystopia known as America used to know how to deal with these minor annoyances. Now they pretend they literally don't know how.
It's intentional.
Some would call it anarchotyranny.
“We’re really not sure what department would even handle this.”
That's how you, slowly, get to the point where gasoline and a match get added so that it's the Fire Department that should take care of it.
But -- Seattle. So you get what you get.
Homeless populations are almost completely a problem with public property, where the owner has no competitive or other incentive to do the difficult work necessary to ensure the property is safe and generally enjoyable.
In theory the incentive, at least for the politicians, should be the fear of not being re-elected but it seems like that's just not cutting it anymore. Especially in deep blue cities.
Another Libertarian answer is to have your own vehicle and fight like Hell any asshole who tries to take it away.
And end up standing tall before a Soros-funded prosecutor and Judge? No thanks. I’m going to take me and my concealed carry permit to a place with much lower crime, thank you very much. You know, where the chances of me actually having to use it are much closer to zero.
Well, you still have to have your own vehicle to move, Dummy!
Sanford Dummy Reel
https://youtu.be/moYdbNXBwvk
And no matter where you go, evil people still exist and you still have to have the nerves that aren't built into either a gun or a "Big Brother May I?" concealed carry permit. Mr. Sanford has edifying words for thugs and busybodies here too:
Fred Sanford Knock Out Reel
https://youtu.be/vM6e3_RXiis
The truth is they don't care about your safety or private property. They only care about virtue signaling progressive rot much like transmitting venereal disease.
For libertarians, the answer becomes relatively simple. “Get off my train, good sir, or I will shoot you.”
No need to waste ammo, which is not cheap these days, when a simple sleeper hold will apparently do the trick.
""Yes, New York in the 1970s and the 80s was a very rough place and ‘mugging’ was considered normal. But people got fed up with it and it turned around. But when every blue city becomes like New York of the 1970s/80s, you’ve got a big problem."'
That's when a republican gets elected.
I arrived in 1990. Dinkins was still mayor. It was still a shitty city leftover from 70s and 80s. People were fed up with it and elected Rudy Guliani. I can't stand Rudy. There wasn't a constitutional right he was willing to stand up for. However, the condition of NYC before his time as mayor and after are night and day.
Where are the throngs of dangerous, threatening, screaming mentally ill people all over the train systems in other [insert list of western liberal democracies here]?
I imagine they would answer that the dangerous, threatening, screaming mentally ill people are not on their train systems because they are in well-funded public safety net institutions designed to take care of them.
In Libertopia, of course, there would be no welfare state. So then there would be two choices:
1. Those same institutions would still exist, just privately funded. To sustain those institutions at a level where you wouldn't have the screaming deranged people constantly boarding the trains, the people of Libertopia would have to develop a humanist ethos willing to contribute to those institutions. This is the Humanist Libertopia that I hope that we could eventually get to.
2. Those same institutions would exist, privately funded, but not well funded, because the ethos in this Libertopia is more like "I don't give a shit". (see: Stuck in California above) In this version of LIbertopia, the screaming deranged people are kept off the trains mostly by strict heavy enforcement of private property rights, guns, and bodybags. This is the Misanthropic Libertopia that I fear we would get instead.
Where are the throngs of dangerous, threatening, screaming mentally ill people all over the train systems in other [insert list of western liberal democracies here]?
Which western liberal democracies have you been to where this is not the case? European capitals with tightly enforced fare terminals around their subways are generally fairly clean as far as homeless go, but they definitely still a share of weirdos who mutter to themselves while carrying everything they own in a shopping bag. They just buy a 2 euro train ticket and never get off. On busses and outside of the capitals, it's a free-for-all. Everything you see in California and more as the detritus of society reaches the end of its line on a Dusseldorf city bus or whatever.
Europe isn't smarter about this. They don't have better people. They certainly don't have more money. You just don't hear about it.
Every place has its share if weirdos. But the problems just don't have the density they have in places like Seattle, San Francisco, NY etc. You think people in Amsterdam are afraid to get on the train? I've been to Amsterdam. And if we want to stretch the metaphor to "liberal democracies" taking out the "western" out of it, allow me to introduce you to Japan.
Again, I'm well aware-- hell, possibly more well aware than most average Americans-- due to the fact that I've traveled fairly extensively-- as to how cultural differences play a major role in how these things work themselves out, and you can't make apples-to-apples comparisons.
But still, one does not need to make comparisons to Saudi Arabia where theft results in a hand being cut off to understand that relatively free and open societies can run themselves reasonably efficiently without daily life becoming World War Z.
If every blue city was like NYC in the 1970s it would be a blast! Cheap rents, cigs were cheap and you could smoke everywhere good heroin w/ no fentanyl in it and having the choice between catching the Heartbreakers at Max's Kansas City or The Misfits at CBGBs.
You could never see the Misfits at CBGB's, as Danzig hated Hilly, and refused to play there.
The libertarian answer is to respect the right of normal individuals to defend themselves. Yes, even a lunatic or a meth-head getting killed is, to some extent, tragic. But, honestly, less tragic than a normal person getting killed by them. I know we live in an age where you're not supposed to say as much. But, frankly, a normal person trying to live their life peaceably matters more than a psychotic or a strung-out junkie.
11 people have been murdered in the subways, all by deranged Jordan Neely types. Many pushed in front of trains, as Jordan Neely had attempted to do to someone a few months back.
A few weeks ago he shattered an old lady’s face on the subway. A couple of years ago he tried to grab a little girl.
The System is failing everyone else
as Jordan Neely had attempted to do to someone a few months back.
I haven't ready anything about this so if I take this as truth, then yeah, the system killed Jordan Neely.
the system killed Jordan Neely.
And, if true, it sounds like maybe we should be glad it did before Jordan Neely killed someone else who wasn't a psychotic loser.
Allowing a proven violently mentally ill person to roam free is not a kindness to that person, or to anyone else they encounter.
If he attempted to push someone in front of a train then he should have been doing significant time for attempted murder. Prison or mental institution, but certainly not allowed in public. But the NY Post cited "a reddit user" for the claim that he nearly pushed someone so not sure how credible that is...
We'll all be famous for 15 minutes.....and some of us will die because of it. Best of luck facing a jury in NY City. Trump just found out how stupid they can be.
What we need is for the Army to take over, like The Siege
The modern woke army filled with gay and tranny support?
They're already in charge of NYC.
"What we need is for the Army to take over, like The Siege"
You know, that is a really fascinating movie.
Very entertaining and a good watch on its own merit.
But it's also hilariously ambivalent when you start thinking about it.
It's supposed to warn of violating civil liberties in the pursuit of stopping terrorism I suppose, at least judging by the dialogue.
But the FBI fails at stopping the terrorist attacks except when they bust in and shoot everybody.
Then, the big bad guy is ostensibly Bruce Willis as the general who declares martial law and rounds up all the Arabs in camps. But a funny thing happens- it works. It's exactly what led to flushing out the last cell (who was being protected by the CIA).
So Denzel gives his big speech about shredding the constitution and arrests the general... after the general instituted the policies necessary to stop the terrorism.
The verdict makes no sense.
Carroll: trump raped me
Trump: she is a liar
Jury: not guilty of rape (sexual battery was a yes on low standards but not rape)
Also jury: 5M for defamation of Trump calling Carroll a liar for raping her which we also agree he didnt do.
It makes sense if you think that the jury thought, yeah he probably did given what we know about him, but we’re not sure enough to find that he did in this case, so let’s compromise.
Not much different from judges enhancing criminals’ sentences for crimes the judge thinks they committed but weren’t convicted of or even on occasion charged with.
Trump may have done himself no favours by not testifying in court, which I think can be taken into account in civil suits. And when he couldn’t tell the difference between Marla Maples and the younger Jean Carroll, an understandable error when you look at this photo it makes his claim that she was not his type hard to believe.
I note that Trump is now lying by claiming that he wasn’t allowed to testify.
Oh, just to forestall a quibble - I am aware that in civil cases juries find on a balance of probabilities (though not it seems in the defamation case) but it is hardly inconceivable that the more serious the allegation the more sure a juror might think they needed to be in reality in order to find for the plaintiff.
The “system”‘s job, as it were, is to protect the public from people like Neely, who have proven themselves a danger to others. That actually is the basis of the social contract. In allowing Neely to repeatedly menace and assault other people is a failure of the system. The system failing to protect the public from Neely also had the ancillary effect of not protecting Neely from the public.
Daniel Penny should not have been put in the position to make the terrible choice of having to use violence on Neely or tolerating his madness and potential violence to others.
This is a nonsense take by Binion.
Neely's death is primarily his own fault. Penny was put in a bad position and seemingly made a mistake in subduing a violent criminal who was acting in a deranged manner.
The first person to blame is the aggressor. This should be Libertarian 101. I think an honest person would also say that with his history that Neely should have been in prison or a mental institution. Literally the 2nd person to point fingers at would be the Soros style DAs and judicial apparatus (which Reason has vociferously supported) for not actually resolving the issue of a repeat offender with serious issues
Yes, the aggressor is primarily responsible, and if that had been Neely's first time showing such behavior then you can put it down to him showing mental illness for the first time. However, someone who is that mentally ill, also has impaired responsibility for his actions. That Neely was not institutionalized in some way after all thecprevious incidents was unkind to him and everyone who had to deal with him.
“At the time of his death, Neely had a warrant out for his arrest for a November 2021 case in which he was accused of assaulting a 67-year-old woman in the East Village,”
The “system” did indeed fail, first in releasing Neely to a voluntary treatment program after his unprovoked assault and second by not arresting him, though he was a well-known figure on the NYC’s top 50 list of homeless persons in urgent need.
Reason magazine has failed as well. Shame.
"He was released from Rikers Island, the notorious New York City jail, in February of this year, reportedly after spending 15 months behind bars."
“At the time of his death, he was subject to a 15-month alternative to incarceration program after pleading guilty in February 2023 to felony assault of a 67-year-old woman, whom he punched as she exited a train station in November 2021, breaking her nose and fracturing an orbital bone. Under the terms of the program, Neely was to live in a treatment facility in the Bronx. He had a warrant issued for his arrest after he missed a court date to update a judge on his progress and abandoned the treatment facility 13 days after he started the program.“
Quote from wiki with citations, one of which is as follows
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/05/jordan-neelys-death-what-we-know-about-subway-choke-hold.html
As long as the system upholds qualified immunity, thus eliminating individual accountability for murder by police, then yes, the system killed him.
What an incredibly stupid response.
Do you write for Reason?
But whether they realize it or not, those on opposite ends of that discussion seem to agree on a core point: It was, in some sense, the fault of "the system" that Jordan Neely was choked to death on the F train.
The system is a fantastic choice for blame. That way no one has to take any responsibility for his death, not Neely, not his family, not the lifers working in social services, and not the agents of the justice system that didn’t see any need to incarcerate him due to his criminal activity and the threat he posed to himself and others. I don’t know enough to say whether the man who killed him is culpable either.
So has anyone offered a useful proposal on what to do with people like Neely? Neither throwing more money at the problem, not involuntarily institutionalizing the mentally ill counts as useful. The state has shown rank incompetence in the limited areas where there is moral justification for their involvement, what does that leave?
I’m fairly sure the answer isn’t what the establishment will offer up – either turning madmen loose on society or diluting due process to lock more people up.
We were supposed to have a system to deal with violent people – the court system – plus a method – the insanity defense and commitment procedures – of getting the truly insane into treatment - by people who are at least capable of guarding him, and perhaps of helping him, or at least keeping them more comfortable than they and their victims were on the streets.
Instead of institutionalizing Neely because he was mentally ill, how about institutionalizing Neely because he was a habitual criminal? We could call it "More than three dozen strikes and then breaking a woman's face, you're out."
In a just world, punching little old ladies in the face would get you a decade in prison. It boggles the mind to imagine a situation where that is acceptable.
Assault in general needs to be prosecuted extremely aggressively. History suggests animals stay animals, and animals belong in cages.
Putting Neely in prison violates the current narrative that we are a racist mass-incarcerating society, which is why black men are treated with kid gloves by the Soros prosecution teams, and not put into prisons, regardless of the seriousness of their crimes.
The worst part of all this is the gaslighting and outright distortion of the facts and lying concerning Neely's criminal history and mental illness. Instead, as CNN noted, Neely was just someone who liked to mimic Michael Jackson.
This is how the MSM distorts facts, obfuscates the truth and lies by omission.
We see evidence everyday where people have to take matters into their own hands and deal with dangerous street thugs including mentally ill whackos who pose a threat of harm to the public. The job the state was charged with protecting the public from such individuals has been a dismal one and near failure.
Ask yourselves why?
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You just know the NYC DA Bragg is just itching to charge Penney. The only reason I can think of for him not to have done so is that there must be at least one other subway rider saying they were scared for their lives and that Penney is a hero.
I don't think he'll get charged.
Actual locals, as opposed to people who have a NYC address but don't regularly ride the subways, seem pretty accepting of Penny's actions. They might be democrats, but most are tired of being terrorized by vagrants every day.
Another thing- you wouldn't know this from media coverage, which has been as deceptive as usual, is apparently Neely didn't die until hours later at the hospital.
According to AOC, the guy just needed a drink and a sandwich, so it must be the fault of Subway® for not adequately giving out food
They had some bad PR from that back when Jared was running the program
Oh yeah, that Subway tween marketing fiasco. Wasn’t Shrike invoked with that?
Well, everyone knows that is were the MAGA's hang out, at least at 2am during a snow storm.
we don’t lock people up in order to protect them from being choked.
And that’s a problem. The severely mentally ill need our protection.
the government was deeply involved in trying to help Neely.
Incompetently and ineffectively, in large part due to their inability to hold him for treatment against his will. Asking the public to accept his depredations without defending themselves is unreasonable.
I mean he was, and he wasn't.
A system where a mentally unstable danger to society keeps walking free is at minimum facilitating either his eventual injury, or someone elses at his hands.
But in the end, its a personal freedom issue. He infringed upon multiple peoples freedom to be safe in public (both in the past and this day), including the people who restrained him, threatened their safety, and he found out. Sucks, but sometimes street justice finds the right answer.
The very fact that he was "engaged with the criminal justice system repeatedly" and he was on the street anyway does not refute the claim that the system failed, it demonstrates it.
You can, of course, point out that New York law does not provide for involuntary long-term confinement of someone with more than forty legitimate arrests, including four assaults. That does not demonstrate that the system didn't fail, that just details the deficiency in the system that caused it to fail.
Jordan Neely is dead because the system left him loose to continue to menace the public. You, Mr. Binion, want to deflect from that obvious failure because you are an advocate of "criminal justice reform", a policy of increasing the number of menaces to the public who are free to menace the general public.
I know why I oppose "criminal justice reform" aka releasing criminals: I am poor, I live in a poor neighborhood in a poor city, I see this shit every day, and I know why my neighborhood is shitty. It's the human garbage on the corner.
I wonder why people like Binion support it. Are they bourgeois? Never been in a bad part of town late at night? Is it ignorance, or is it evil?
Neely belonged in prison because he was a violent prick who liked to punch old ladies. His most recent arrest (after which he was released, because New York) was in February. That said, I would still say Penny overreached, and regardless of whether he wanted to hurt Neely or not (I'd lean yes on that; you don't put people you don't want to hurt in a chokehold), he did kill him, and now should also be in prison.
The lesson? Stay out of New York.
The lesson? You're an idiot.
This article is a fucking bad joke. You know what killed Neely? The principles of Darwinism, because in the natural fucking world someone like Neely would have been killed years ago, the first time he irrationally threatened someone and that someone stopped the threat for fucking good. If the mentally ill can commit a crime and get off "by reason of insanity", then we sane people should immediately get off for killing them when they threaten us, period! You either lock the 'em up and keep them away from society or society should have free reign to take care of the problem. The bottom line is other people's insanity should not be the problem of ordinary citizens just trying to live their lives - it's not our fault that they're insane so why the fuck should we put up with threats to our lives?
Unbridled vigilantism would be awesome for about 15 minutes. Then the vigilantes would start in on innocents, and become the thing they hated.
So just have to tolerate being terrorized by schizophrenic hobos I guess
You obviously don't know what "vigilante" means. It is NOT someone using force to stop an active threat.
The insanity defense, in those cases where it works, means the person is separated from the public by the walls of a hospital, not by the walls of a prison. And there’s a different procedure for deciding about releasing him. In and of itself, succeeding at an insanity defense isn’t the same as being let loose.
There has to be a will to enforce laws against violent behavior, whether the violent person is sane or mad.
“But whether they realize it or not, those on opposite ends of that discussion seem to agree on a core point: It was, in some sense, the fault of “the system” that Jordan Neely was choked to death on the F train.”
It IS the fault of the system. In the individual case of Neely, the system repeatedly failed to help him, at first for his own good and then, after his repeated arrests, for the good of everyone else around him.
The system has also failed by allowing rampant lawlessness, and failing to do anything to protect the rights of citizens. People no longer have any faith in “the system” to protect their rights, so you’ll keep on seeing instances of individuals taking circumstances into their own hands. If you can’t rely on the parts of “the system” that are charged with public safety to actually maintain public safety people are going to get fed up and, eventually, someone else is going to start doing it and it’s going to get really ugly.
A. Shit happens.
B. Everyone has a right to defend themselves and others with violence.
C. No one has the right to kill someone who is no longer a threat.
D. That's as far as I can get on this one.
E. The system has failed me.
https://twitter.com/DeanPreston/status/1656023543333933057?t=ebAA7_Ezp5HcM_8LxO6rvw&s=19
Today, I’m announcing legislation to limit use of guns by security guards. We must amend local law to prohibit guards from drawing weapons just to protect property. Human life is more important than property.
[Video]
Save lives, give the Donbas to Putin.
https://twitter.com/julie_kelly2/status/1655954742940401667?t=OGGZ9HfxSDKl7v3q7ZxQ8w&s=19
DC US Attorney Matthew Graves wants 14 YEARS IN PRISON for a disabled, decorated Navy veteran who never went inside the building on Jan 6.
Tom Caldwell's attorney asking for time served since he already spent nearly 2 months in solitary confinement after his arrest in Jan 2021: [link]
Why does Matthew Graves and Jeffrey Nestler, his assistant US attorney, want Tom Caldwell to die in prison?
Here are his crimes-- [link]
Political prisoners.
Destroying the life of a decorated military vet and patriot is quite a feather in the cap of a DoJ prosecutor under the Biden regime.
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The "system" knew Kneely was a threat to public safety, and did nothing about it. And his behavior (first as a MJ impersonator, and later just as disruptive personality) was well known in the subway. So either Neely was going to hurt someone, or his victim might have hurt him in an act of legitimate self defense or vigilantism. By failing to protect the public from Neely, it also failed to protect Neely.
I don't expect the system to rehabilitate lost causes like Neely, no more than I expect them to make us all eat healthy. But I expect them to do the minimum to keep them from hurting others. What could've been done to stop this guy from habitually entering the subways? Why was a man who was discharged from the army due to mental issues allowed to become a security guard and own guns? Why are thrice deported people allowed to just exit the country and come back?
A libertarian society will allow freedom among consenting adults. If people just do whatever they want beyond all parameters, it becomes an anarchy. The writers here sometimes seem to prefer the latter in the name of eschewing government intervention. No one wants someone like Neely to be rounded up, but if the people we pay taxes to won't do the minimum to protect us, they might as well just give our money back and give us guns.
Another one of Bragg's charity cases let loose to terrorize people. He even let James Anastasia walk with a slap on the wrist for playing knockout game as MSG. Attempted murder caught on video and Bragg is all "nothing to see here" about it.
I lived in MnY for 30 years and experienced more than one frightening situation on the subway.
Neely was arrested over 40 times, he screamed he didn’t care if he lived or died. We don’t know what else happed but it’s a stretch to call this murder.
And I’m always referred to as the bleeding heart liberal.
It’s a questionable situation with tight quarters.
Neely was failed by the system which had him on the street and on a list of the 59 cases. Now it’s 49.
I'm not a liberal but I agree it's not murder but I do think it is manslaughter the way he continued to apply that choke even after the dude went limp. Penny should have eased up and his training says he knew that. I also think Neely's behavior is your average daily episode of New York Life, but the jury will decide that. While the system failed Neely, it also failed Penny. Let's not forget that Penny is a victim of violent conditioning. At the same time, I think everyone has to stop looking to the system and look within themselves to make changes and to a higher power. Neely isn't a saint, I'm sure he knew what he was doing for at least some of his arrests and he had no excuse to hurt anyone. Penny isn't a saint or a victim of hypnosis. While conditioned to be violent, he made a conscious choice and kept making it. Now he has to pay for it.
"My wife is ex-military," the passenger said. "You're gonna kill him now."
Dafuq?
Yeah, kinda busy choking out this Neely character but, TMI, dude, TMI.
She's gotta be loving being fame-adjacent for that.
At what point do you choke somebody for 15 minutes and not expect them to die ?
Anyone who doesn’t see that closing all of the mental asylums down is an idiot. Some people cannot get well…others simply don’t want to get well. Many are passive crazy people but all too many are violent. There’s a guy who is crazy as hell on Main Street in Memphis and pulls a knife on people who walk too close to him. Has he ever used it? I have no idea but if he pulled it on me and I thought there was even a 1% chance he was going to stab me he would be dead. Putting homeless people aside, in todays day and age…if ANYONE gets on a plane, train, boat or bus and says I am going to hurt everyone here…that alone (given whats going on in our country) should be enough to take that person out…legally…in order to save the lives of others. Because while you don't know if they have a gun, or a bomb or just a knife...you do know what their intention is from that moment forth.
It should have been this way since 9/11 and for a while it was, but Americans fell back to sleep.
This occurred in New York which is entirely whacked out and crazy so I suspect that Penny will be charged and convicted. From what I've read there was legitimate reason to constrain Neely. The situation was not ideal and the outcome was not desired or good.
Mostly I see this as an indictment of New York. Like most major cities, they can't seem to figure out the basics because they are spending all their time and money pursuing stupidity. Stupidity of the left, stupidity of the woke, stupidity of the elites, stupidity of the political class.
Those who are not in a protected class are left to fend for themselves after the regime has stolen their lively-hoods. It time that the middle class start to realize that that race is simply a diversionary tactic used by those in power to maintain their power.
Most people really don't have deep seated concerns about what another person's race, religion or sexual preference is. Most people judge people based on the merit of the other person in-spite of all the propaganda that the corporate media spews to the contrary.
The easiest method to bridge any divide is to actually speak to people outside of whatever the grouping of the day is as a person. Instead of confronting then politically meet them as a fellow human. For the large part there will be more similarities than differences with common goals, dreams and aspirations.
Don't let the people in power divide us. Come together to accept our differences and commonalities as we are all individuals and each should be able to pursue our own personal choices. These choices will differ and as long as we are not attempting to force our choices on others then all should be good.
Well said boss. I think you're right that most people don't have issues with differences, but they become the witting and unwitting tools of those who use these differences to cause division.
My issue with Penny is his assertion that his action was justified. If I use a civil scale, I'd say Penny is wrong straight up. If I use a criminal scale, I could see a homeless man ranting that way scaring people. It's often a precursor to more violence. However, like the legal analysts have been saying, is that out of sorts for NYC? Everyone knows NYCs reputation and Penny is from the area. Personally, I think Penny did not have a legit reason. Neely had to have coupled his yelling with some other action or a clear verbal threat to engage in a criminal act that goes beyond being disorderly. If people start attacking others for this sort of behavior in NYC, there will be a lot of beggars and little old lady's being choked out. Yes, I've seen little old lady's ranting and waving their arms and even physically accosting people by shoving people out of the way. Would Penny have choked that old lady? No because he clearly thinks. His choking was methodical.
I think Penny should get manslaughter due to his marine training and that he went too far applying that rear naked choke. He seems to have been aiming to subdue by putting Neely to sleep. Even if that was not his intention, he should have known losing consciousness or death was the ultimate outcome and that's enough to convict for manslaughter.
I don’t know how it works in NY, bu on Washington State I’d someone is up in your face with balled up fists held above the waist, it constitutes assault and responding with force is justifiable. As it should be.
The system failed Neely but it also failed Penny who is a victim of violent conditioning via at least the marines. People should keep trying to improve the system, but it's time to also improve ourselves and each other. If a person checks and helps themselves and those closest to them and they're honest with themselves, they're fighting injustice and it will do much more to stop all these crazy killings than any system.
we don't lock people up in order to protect them from being choked.
No, we lock them up to protect the public from them. Since New York didn't do that, it fell upon a brave Marine to protect the subway riders from him.
Find the illegals, find the homeless and put the homeless into the residences of the illegals. When the illegals get fed up and go back to where they came from, find another illegal to house the homeless. Eventually, at least one of two major problems will get solved.
The system didn't fail him, the system, run by the left, failed society. After 40 arrests and 15 months in jail, he was still on the street in May 2023, after, '....The November 2022 attack knocked the 67 year old woman over and left her with a broken nose, fractured orbital bone and bruising, swelling and substantial pain, according to charging documents. ...'
Marines are trained in "Choke outs". Part of the training includes the information that a choke-out help too long will kill. Any one else recall this? Once they pass out you let them go, if you're not intending to kill them.
He knew exactly what he was doing. Why didn't anyone stop him? How were they all just watching? And how is he saying it was in self-defense. So now, if someone litters or screams....you can just choke them it be justified through self-defense? I don't even get why his mental illness is even being talked about. No matter how mental someone is...you don't just go around choking them until they're not moving, or even touch them for that matter. This guy (and everyone who helped) should be responsible for what they did. It's Penny who should be in the mental hospital.
Maybe get the facts next time before you comment?
Go ahead.
Considering the number of people who've been victimized by these "homeless" lunatics, I'd say that having one on your subway car, screaming and threatening everybody, is a very real threat.
"the government was deeply involved in trying to help Neely"
Ah yes, "government help" aka some of the scariest words in the English language.
Holy Shit. Browsed back to this page and noticed, buried in the URL/HTML:
<title>The System Didn’t Kill Jordan Neely. Daniel Penny Did.</title>
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