Debate: To Preserve Individual Liberty, Government Must Affirmatively Intervene in the Culture War
What happens when anti-liberty zealots get the same powers?

You May Not Be Interested in the Culture War, But the Culture War Is Interested in You
Affirmative: Todd Zywicki

To paraphrase the aphorism attributed to Leon Trotsky: You may not be interested in the culture war, but the culture war is interested in you. Just as ignoring the reality of war won't keep your house from being bombed, ignoring the culture war isn't going to obviate the threat it poses to individual liberty. As society and daily life become increasingly politicized, it is time for libertarians to accept that to preserve individual liberty, the government must affirmatively intervene in the culture war.
The use of government power can be liberty-enhancing—most obviously by restraining the exercise of government action through the rule of law and constitutional limits, but also by restraining private actors by protecting property rights against theft or vandalism, enforcing contracts, protecting against assault or other bodily harm, and other exercises of government power that restrict some people's freedom of action in order to enhance others'.
Libertarians, including myself, have traditionally navigated these competing rights claims through a simple and highly effective dichotomy oriented around property rights: The primary threat to freedom is the exercise of government (public) power, whereas the exercise of private power to exclude via property rights and freedom of contract is generally considered not only untroubling but actually freedom-enhancing. Moreover, asking government to do more (such as by limiting the power to exclude or freedom of contract) is fraught with the risk of unintended consequences of unleashing Leviathan.
In an ideal world—the world of the "first-best"—this public-private binary has much to commend it. The arbitrary exercise of private power will be checked by market forces and freedom of choice. Employers or restaurants that discriminate will find themselves bankrupted in competition with those that do not. Adapt or die.
But in the "second-best" world where we live today, grasping at this idealized vision may be counterproductive to the long-term preservation of liberty. There is a culture war, and virtually every public and private institution in society has enlisted itself on the anti-liberty side, even those historically thought of as largely nonpolitical actors: media, social media, K-12 schooling, employers, universities, the permanent government bureaucracy, mainline Protestant churches, and even the last holdouts, corporations and the military. The left has shown repeatedly it's not shy about using coercion to force compliance. No longer a buffer against social hyperpoliticization, commercial and civil-society institutions have now become the tip of the spear for woke conformity.
State action remains the largest potential threat to individual liberty. But state action is subject to constitutional constraints that place some limits on oppressive actions. Today, many of the restrictions on individual liberty that affect people most are imposed by private actors, such as banks, employers, and social media companies. For example, financial institutions increasingly are "debanking" certain individuals, nonprofit organizations, and industries based on disapproval of their political views. Employers are requiring employees to attend racial sensitivity training seminars that bear minimal, if any, relationship to their job duties, and are disciplining employees for opinions expressed in their private time on social media. Social media companies have engaged in widespread censorship and suppression of speech. In many of these instances, government has played a vague role in the background, "encouraging" these private businesses to engage in these activities. But not always.
These actions are not merely economic in their effect. They have social spillover actions beyond mere economic considerations. When an individual risks economic or social suicide—loss of a bank account, termination of employment, or banishment from social media platforms—for running afoul of the speech police, their ability to speak as citizens in the democratic debate will be chilled. Libertarians have long appreciated that an abstract right to freedom of speech is meaningless when the government controls all the printing presses and airwaves. It is not obvious why allowing JPMorgan Chase or Google to effectively control one's ability to speak is any more inherently benign when individuals lack ready access to alternative providers of those services.
In such instances, it is reasonable to consider government as a countervailing force to liberty-infringing private power. There are several worthwhile and practical legislative and regulatory proposals that could address some of the greatest abuses of private power. For example, during the waning days of the Trump administration, the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency issued the Fair Access to Financial Services rule, which would address the growing problem of individuals losing access to bank accounts and other financial services as a result of their political beliefs. Some states and municipalities are considering adding political beliefs to the list of classes that are protected from discrimination. Employers and private universities could be restricted from disciplining or discharging employees except for violations of rules that bear some bona fide relationship to their employment, thereby enabling employees to speak freely in the political sphere on their own time. Social media companies that desire the liability protection of platforms could be subjected to limited common carrier–style regulation that would prohibit content discrimination.
All of these actions could enlarge the liberty of individuals to speak and participate in the democratic process by restraining the power of banks, employers, and universities from punishing them for expressing their beliefs, all without materially infringing on the legitimate property rights of those private parties. All of them would have to be carefully and pragmatically designed and calibrated to provide a reasonable balance between competing values.
Yes, empowering the state to protect liberty by restraining the actions of nongovernmental employers, social media companies, and financial institutions raises the potential that these powers will be used as a weapon by the left as well.
Leftists are already using government power to commandeer private institutions into the culture wars. As the Twitter Files reveal, government officials have been leaning on social media companies to censor so-called misinformation about COVID-19 and political stories such as Hunter Biden's laptop. As Operation Choke Point revealed during the Obama administration, bank regulators were using their power to shut off financial services to disfavored industries. The Community Reinvestment Act is already being used to direct financial services in alignment with political goals. The current administration is trying to reinterpret various nondiscrimination laws in ways that infringe on religious liberty, restrict free speech, and promote racial discrimination. The federal government is investigating everything from local schools that wouldn't mandate masks during the pandemic to parents speaking at school board meetings.
The left is not waiting for legal authority to do all of this. Simply pleading for them to stop punching isn't going to work. Pacifism simply emboldens, not restrains, these aggressions against individual liberty. For those who care about the rule of law, by contrast, empowering individuals with legal protections against abuses of private power can level the playing field.
Moral Enforcement by Government Is Antithetical to Liberty
Negative: Kent Lassman
War destroys. It does not create, build, or beautify. Among the four horsemen of the apocalypse, it rides through our imagination along three decidedly nonlibertarian scourges: conquest, famine, and death. In contemporary political warfare, libertarians can do better than government as a means to elevate our vision of a good society.
We can and must take steps to limit the problems addressed by government. This will preserve liberal values like individual liberty, dynamism, property rights, and pluralism. From these precepts, not the diktats of government bureaus and agencies, we can expand the realm of private action.
We must not confuse means with ends. Libertarians can identify a role for government to protect, or even enhance, individual liberty. This baseline is found, among other places, in the preamble of the Constitution. Government is initiated to secure the blessings of liberty. But we must avoid the easy embrace of the progressive illusion that government can either create or provide our liberties.
The how of individual liberty is rooted in an allotment of dignity granted to us all. Property rights flow naturally from this birthright and include rights in our self, labor, and ideas.
Government plays an important, limited, and clearly defined role in the preservation of liberty, and property rights are central to that role. But that is all. To invite it to do more is to invite powerful institutions to work against the interests of a liberty-oriented society. In reality, unlike in fiction, government functionaries are not the heroes for whom we are waiting.
Instead, government institutions tend to accrete power at the expense of individual liberty. Time and again, governments abuse power, violate the liberty of individuals, and marginalize minorities. The same thing will happen if we ask it to guarantee educational outcomes, equitable lending portfolios, or intervene in the workplace with minimum wage laws or restrictions on how to contract for work.
For the past century, government institutions have been captured by centralized, identitarian ideas that have systematically enhanced collectivism at the expense of individual choice. Time and again, when public action has increased, it has diminished private action.
Examples abound. Social insurance and welfare programs practically eliminated mutual aid societies. Myriad private education alternatives have been trumped by state schools or subsequently co-opted by federal loan guarantees and research grants.
The choice is not between a libertarian nirvana and an Orwellian uber-state. Among the prudential questions is to what degree should government advance libertarian values within our culture and a mixed economy. An explicit expansion of negative rights could have a pro-liberty effect in the near term. Consider a law such as, "The Treasury Department, or any other regulatory agency it supervises, shall not take climate change into account when conducting business or implementing a law." It is directionally sound and it keeps the government from oversteering financial institutions. But it is culture war by another name and the instrument of that warfare is government action. Far better to keep government agencies out altogether.
Government action cannot be an appropriate means of collective action if we are to retain a strong attachment to cultural pluralism. By its nature, government action in the culture war enforces a singular worldview either through disadvantaging competing visions or outlawing them altogether. Once established, its direction is difficult to change due to institutional barriers and the emergence of reliant interests. Further, government institutions are in a position to advantage their own prerogatives at the expense of private alternatives.
In a democracy, libertarians should never support new government power, even a weapon in the culture war, that we would not readily grant to the anti-liberty zealots among us. Engaging government to advance liberal values is to deploy a powerful and dangerous weapon that is ill-suited to the moment and ill-suited to long-term liberal values. We do better for individual liberty by demonstrating alternatives to the tired culture war positions of various partisans.
In the face of powerful, culture-shaping institutions like social media, financial institutions, and universities colluding with government regulators, it is tempting to reach for the strongest tool in the toolbox—and nothing carries more immediate force than government policy.
We might wish that America's moral intuitions were more thoroughly libertarian, but they are not. Therefore, our government institutions are not fit for the purpose of advancing liberty through culture. Private, voluntary institutions can develop and spread the moral intuitions behind individual liberty better than any federal program. We can advance libertarian values such as pluralism, dynamism, and experimentation by consistently expanding the areas of life dominated by private institutions while precluding government intervention. This is true whether we are talking about speech, the development of widgets, or a society's moral tastes. We can lean into a presumption in favor of liberty and self governance. For all its flaws, the NCAA is a better and more responsive regulator of college athletics than anyone at the Department of Education. Likewise, UL (formerly Underwriters Laboratories) creates tremendous consumer value with high levels of public trust. I'd compare it favorably to the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
Major questions of faith and morality regularly make their way into government policy and, therefore, national debate. This is because culture warriors of one stripe or another see each question as an either-or proposition: Either my tribe's views prevail, vanquishing all others from the field, or the other tribe's views dominate.
That zero-sum mentality is fine for a voluntary association where everyone has the opportunity to use their voice to persuade others to align, or else presents an avenue for exit. But in a pluralistic society, we need to elevate individuals' opportunities to use their voices, engage in reasoned debate, and organize. Any form of action, especially government action, that precludes exit is detrimental to individual liberty. It is choice foreclosed.
Libertarians should stand for the examination of ideas, even bad ideas that we find repugnant, through public debate. Bringing government into the scene as an enforcer of one set of ideas, even the right ideas, is contrary to the ideal of a tolerant society built on a foundation of individual liberty.
Subscribers have access to Reason's whole May 2023 issue now. These debates and the rest of the issue will be released throughout the month for everyone else. Consider subscribing today!
- Debate: It's Time for a National Divorce
- Debate: Artificial Intelligence Should Be Regulated
- Debate: Democracy Is the Worst Form of Government Except for All the Others
- Debate: To Preserve Individual Liberty, Government Must Affirmatively Intervene in the Culture War
- Debate: The E.U. Was a Mistake
- Debate: The U.S. Should Increase Funding for the Defense of Ukraine
- Debate: Mentally Ill Homeless People Must Be Locked Up for Public Safety
- Debate: Despite the Welfare State, the U.S. Should Open Its Borders
- Debate: Cats Are More Libertarian Than Dogs
- Debate: Make Housing Affordable by Abolishing Growth Boundaries, Not Ending Density Restrictions
- Debate: Bitcoin Is the Future of Free Exchange
- Debate: Be Optimistic About the World
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Moral Enforcement by Government Is Antithetical to Liberty
Your problem here is that all laws are an expression of moral enforcement. The question is, what morality are you enforcing?
Since you obviously need a clarification, Moral Enforcement of Witch-Burning by Government Or Private Criminals is Antithetical to Liberty.
Fuck Off, Witch-Burning Nazi!
Ummm weren't the nazis really into witchcraft and the occult?
True. After WW2, Hitler was finally killed at the end of the Occult Wars in 1958. Socialists love the occult.
Nemo combines Nazism and Witch-Burning as his twin fetishes. He had earlier endorsed a creepy book promoting the return of Witch-Burning, namely Witches, Feminism, and the Fall of the West by Alt-Right author Edward Dutton. I haven't let anyone forget it.
And as The 25-Point Program of NSDAP shows that they were eclectic on religion, as long as religionists went along with Nazism:
National Socialist Program--Wikipedia
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program
AFAICT, "Nemo Aequalis'" position is left open. In accusing him/her of supporting one side or the other you are assuming facts not in evidence.
They've been searching for Nemo ever since he was blown out to sea by the Aequinoctal gales
See above.
YOU are the problem you claim to oppose.
This is right. The libertarian ethos is a moral code, after all. It is the moral calculation that liberty trumps all other outcomes. And so, moral enforcement of the libertarian stance is not antithetical to liberty.
I agree, the question is "What morality are you [the state] enforcing?"
For many libertarians, that would be enforcing laws against harming others such as murder, rape, arson, fraud, etc., or defending against an invading army. This debate is kind of ambiguous since "Culture" generally doesn't involve harm to others.
But if culture includes politics, then I'm with Goldwater's ghost: "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." The authoritarian/Marxists/socialists/etc have been attacking our liberty. We just found out about the biggest government censorship program ever, and it's unconstitutional. This after the deep state trampling over Trump's, and now our, freedoms.
I would argue the opposite. Culture is always evolving, but it is the extremists on the left and right who are pumping discord into our society by culture warring over every damn thing under the sun, eschewing any moderation, and trying to use government as a weapon in their war.
Meanwhile civil, tolerant people are politically homeless.
Says the guy who defends every culture war the left starts lol.
Being moderate would be conservative, ie the current status quo. Change can be defined, as you loosely do, as a culture war. You oddly only attack those seeking to maintain long standing cultural norms while defending those seeking to change through laws, cancelations, and threats of violence.
Odd.
eschewing any moderation...
Forcing people at the point of a gun to Bake That Cake hardly seems moderate.
Yup, and the people who want to force someone to “bake that cake” are culture warring on the left side. It takes two sides to make a struggle.
Actually, being conservative CANNOT be about whatever the current status quo is. It MUST be about conserving specific principles, or it has absolutely NO MEANING.
"hey let me transify your kids at school behind your back"
"no"
"why do you support a culture war?!?!?!"
Fucking nonsense
If 2020 and 2022 are taken with any credulity, those “politically homeless” people broke heavy for Democrats.
2022 in particular was because of culture war bullshit (most notably Republicans like Lindsey Graham running their mouths on abortion, driving people away).
The very problem with Federal employees getting involved in suggesting accounts and posts to censor to social media companies is that is isnt unconstitutional, or illegal.
The Republicans have the right idea in passing a new law to make it crystal clear that Federal employees and contractors should not be allowed to engage in such schemes. Yesterday I checked and it seems that the Republican House bill has not gone anywhere since early March.
(That still leaves the problem with elected Federal officials pressuring social media, but that one is harder to deal with — precisely because of the elected officials’ First Amendment rights of free speech.)
Lol. 2 years after pretending social media companies just have the same opinion, not happening, claiming it was republican victim hood, you finally have a single accurate sentence.
Fucking dumbass.
https://twitter.com/iamyesyouareno/status/1649538677628960768?t=keeoBOVqnWXy-oALzN5T-A&s=19
Yep, and remember this?
[Video]
PrIvAtE cOmPaNiEs!
He must think everyone here is as dumb as him and doesn't remember his prior commentary.
Government employees and elected officials don’t have a 1A right to suggest or pressure people to violate our rights.
Jesus H Science
Exactly is it objective or subjective?
The morality of the far, hard left wing. True scum
“The left is not waiting for legal authority to do all of this. Simply pleading for them to stop punching isn’t going to work. Pacifism simply emboldens, not restrains, these aggressions against individual liberty. For those who care about the rule of law, by contrast, empowering individuals with legal protections against abuses of private power can level the playing field.”
This is the first time I think I have seen this expressed here from these pages. Of course, it had to be a new name…
I wonder if it would have made a difference 10 years ago if the libertarian flagship had been loudly beating the drums of freedom on censorship on the internet instead of loudly deriding anyone who mentioned things like shadow bans and media bias.
“That doesn’t exist” was the initial response, and when it became irrefutable, “Go build your own Facebook” was the rejoinder.
Go build your own ISP, hosting company, bank, payment processor, video hosting company, social media platform, search engine…. And somehow convince people to leave the handful of places that have pretty much 100% market saturation and somehow build a critical mass and attract an entirely new advertising network… All while being completely cut off from the public eye and consciousness. Great strategy..
Yet here we are… because the once behind-closed-doors nakedly partisan and political censorship and collision across government and the press and social media is now proudly and casually open to see, alternatives are beginning to grow. Rumble is actually becoming a viable option for political speech. It actually has programming that exceeds cable news shows in viewership. All because Google is chasing away anyone who refuses to bend the knee to the state and party line via demonitization and algorhymic suppression.
One might recognize this as a good thing, but it is also a symptom of a deep, perhaps fatal illness.
These culture war issues are being championed by agent provocateurs and reactionaries. With no common communication platform, our nation cannot have a discussion. People who watch Fox News and go to places like Daily Wire for commentary see video of drag shows for families with 35 year old men in drag rubbing their crotches at elementary school kids, while NBC viewers who post on Facebook see no such thing and think the NBC video of protests against these shows are simply “anti-lgbtqia” as described by hosts.
Those viewers of Fox and conservative social media see real doctors and nurses at real hospitals advocating for permanent gender transition of prepubescent children and describing the fallout, while Today show and New York Times’ audience sees claims from officials and pundits that this doesn’t exist, and that it is an anti-trans hate-fueled lie.
The world we have wrought is a world where it is impossible to have political debate. Public conversations are set by a cabal of think tanks and government insiders who coordinate things with the “mainstream”. The opposition view is relegated to an entirely separate communication channel. So we get the absurdity of a major network news reporter scoring an interview with the president of the United States and insisting to him that a major story about his rival being corrupt and on the take “isn’t verified” when the initial reporter had extremely detailed documentation and verification from multiple parties to the conversation… All while every social media company and news agency completely suppressed discussion of the topic.
We have the absurdity of our government participating in a war via various direct means, and a press that actively suppresses coverage of that fact, bolstered by internet companies that will hide any dissenting voices. (Covering the nordstream pipeline demolition as a US action will get you silenced on YouTube, for example)
Libertarians cannot be sanguine about this development. Liberty has never been this deeply threatened in any of our lifetimes.
The debate in our house needs to be about effective means of combatting this propaganda machine, not about ways in which the opposition needs to just shut up about it. By not participating, we leave it to populist republicans to tilt at windmills with government mandates. Congratulations, by throwing in with the left, you are getting the worst of both worlds. And this status quo is not sustainable… Definitely not for those who desire personal liberty.
Zywicki isn't new here. He is a Volokh Conspiracy contributor.
Volokh is its own voice, distinct from the editorial voice of reason magazine. Cohosted, but definitely a different voice.
More libertarian in many ways than the magazine side.
That isn’t much of a bar these days.
"Those viewers of Fox and conservative social media see real doctors and nurses at real hospitals advocating for permanent gender transition of prepubescent children and describing the fallout, while Today show and New York Times’ audience sees claims from officials and pundits that this doesn’t exist, and that it is an anti-trans hate-fueled lie."
But the voices from the Times and NBC tell us in the next breath that gender-altering surgeries (totally not done on minors) are critical for fairness and freedom.
"This is the first time I think I have seen this expressed here from these pages. Of course, it had to be a new name…"
This article was truly excellent.
I hope our blindly conventional-establishment Reasonista crew have a bit of a read and maybe think about a few things; like how things have changed since the 90s for example.
Really nailed it Cyto.
There is no debate. If we want to be free then left must be destroyed. Which means the end of the democrat party. Which is now a neo Marxist organization with overt totalitarian goals. Which we are seeing in real time.
Does anyone really see an alternative at this point?
How do you suggest they be destroyed?
End the welfare state and make them earn their way.
Any means necessary
I don’t see the left (democrats) going away without a very bloody street fight.
The 'useful idiots' will gravitate to whatever system provides avocado toast and wine bars. Those have never been (widely) available in People's Republics.
Until those of us who believe in the rights enshrined in the Constitution force the far left to admit their crimes publicly and pay monetary reparations to their victims, this will not stop.
These scum are everywhere, in government, public education, even in Texas.
One of them is the piece of garbage who fired my buddy for an online joke that some drug addled game designer in Colorado objected to. They violated his sixth Amendment rights and his Fourteenth and yes, they are bound by the Constitution as they receive taxpayer funding. They have to follow each and every Amendment but no one will enforce that.
Where is Cruz? Where was Trump?
Arrest, indict, and imprison the perjurious criminal "Doctor" Anthony Fauci.
Impeach Garland
Impeach Mayorkas.
And last but not least, impeach the scumbag-in-chief Joe Biden. Yep, I said it yet again!
And I’m just going to keep on saying it over and over and over and over and over again here every single week until we the American people get what we voted for: some justice and accountability for the three years (and counting) of absolute hell these bastards have put this country through because of their lies and crimes.
So let's go already McCarthy, what the hell are you waiting for? The time for talk is over, we want action and we want it now. Your #1 most important job by far the rest of this term is to do everything you possibly can to clean up the dirty cesspool that the Department of Justice has been turned into.
BENGHAZI !!!!!!
Hunter Biden near indictment:
After prosecutors narrowed down the possible charges Hunter Biden could face last year, there haven’t been any public developments. According to sources familiar with the investigation, prosecutors are still weighing whether to bring two misdemeanor charges for failure to file taxes, one count of felony tax evasion related to the overreporting of expenses, and a false statement charge regarding a gun purchase.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/21/politics/hunter-biden-weiss-justice-meeting/index.html
Congrats Mikey. You got your man.
We both know those charges are to protect Hunter and his daddy from far more serious and politically damaging ones.
Hunters lawyer is threatening the whistleblower with a felony for disclosing a tax return. Oddly that didn't happen when trumps was leaked.
It's all just a big game to this scumbag, all of it. He doesn't give a flying rat's ass about the country or about whether policies are good, so-so, or terrible or work or don't work. The only thing he gives a fuck about is that his team has the power and control over others.
Of course. I wouldn’t expect someone who fucks children to look out for anyone else’s well being.
Remember that turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Faggot pedo, you’re linking a CNN article? You Soros gimps are beyond stupid.
We know you’re a dumb cunt, but do you really need to showcase your stupidity so spectacularly here very day?
Congratulations on feeding into the "Democrats Throwing Biden Under the Bus" narrative. The ability of Democrats to cut their losses by denouncing their members and supporters whenever it appears to be a good idea is a strength of their tactics and political strategy. Biden was okay as long as the goal was to beat Trump. Now he's a liability so the leftie media has been issued new marching orders. Stop suppressing anti-Biden stories and play up the dementia aspect of, "Although we love our fellow Democrat, it's time for him to turn the power over to a new generation." Send Kamala off to be the Ambassador to Timbuctu and desperately try to find someone who can beat DeSantis or whoever ...
But who do the Democrats have on their bench? Gavin Newsom?
Here is the truth about our government:
Here's the basic premise in the founding of the enlightenment model of the US: Rights were given to you by your creator, not by your government. Your government didn't give them to you so, they can't take them away. Furthermore the 9th amendment to the constitution makes these guarantees explicit. If any person in the government tries to take them away anyway, despite lacking any authority to do so, they are traitors to the citizens and must be treated as such.
A common misconception regarding the US government is that it is not the case that they start with total power and authority and the Constitution then subtracts from those powers. Under the Constitutional principle of Enumerated Powers and despite common wisdom, the government actually starts with zero power. Powers are then granted (Enumerated) by the constitution. This means that our natural rights such as the right to privacy or the right to free speech do not need to be explicitly granted to the populace - we have them by default. (The bill of rights is - quite literally - redundant and completely unnecessary.) What it does mean is that the government cannot violate those rights unless the ability to do so is explicitly granted by the Constitution - which in those cases it is not.
https://tritorch.com/covenant/
When someone declares 'people will die' as a justification for curtailing liberty, the correct response is, 'what are you suggesting - that liberty isn't worth dying for? That those who sacrificed their lives for our freedoms made the wrong choice?'
-OldMugwump
My response is, "Let me at those people. I'll kill them first. Then you needn't worry about their dying."
Those who sacrificed anything, for anyone, made the wrong choice. They should've grabbed for all the gusto they could get, like the beer ad says.
Well Said +10000000.
"Rights were given to you by your creator"
My parents created me, and boy, were they able to take away my rights! Getting grounded, having my car keys taken away... the only way I gained all my rights back was by moving out.
Wait, you mean your parents were just an immediate proxy for any restriction on your rights until you were physically and mentally old enough to grasp them more fully for yourself and, at that point, they were derived from a power well beyond your parents' (and parents’ parents' (etc.) or anyone else’s) reach?
Congrats on grasping the self-actualization of a 14-yr.-old, 200 yrs. ago, with a sub-HS (by today’s standards) education.
Anustasia believes that prohibiting fucking kids is a violation of children’s rights.
"“Age of consent” laws are arbitrary, random, anti-freedom, and should be abolished."
https://reason.com/2023/04/10/what-freedom-means-to-ron-desantis/?comments=true#comment-10011288
Quit sockpuppeting Shrike. Pick an account and stick with it.
Driving is a privilege, not a right.
Driving is a privilege, not a right
That's idiotic. It's neither. It's a licensed activity regulated by the government. Before the car there were horses. Did you have to ask the government to license your horse? Did you have a horse rider's license to travel by horse? Did you have to bring your horse in for inspection on a regular basis? Did you have to insure your horse? No.
You can drive without a license. You can drive without registering your car or having it insured or inspected. If you want to travel without interference from a government agent you have to abide by the licensing and regulatory rules or be fined/jailed for not doing that. But the government doesn't give you the privilege to drive. They just dictate the parameters for you to drive and not be hassled about it. All under the guise of safety.
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/news_columnists/article/License-plates-predate-automobiles-3834270.php
According to research by local historian Ed Gaida, author of “The Sidewalks of San Antonio,” the City Council passed an ordinance April 1, 1879, “requiring all vehicles used for public hire to have affixed to them a metal plate with a license number and the number of horses required to pull the vehicle.”
https://www.thehenryford.org/explore/blog/horse-drawn-vehicles-in-the-city
“New York issued its first hack license in 1692. Though more expensive than omnibuses and horsecars, hacks and cabs offered greater convenience and privacy for those who could afford the ride.“
Anyway, a couple of examples of cities essentially requiring the licensing of horse-drawn taxis before the automobile. Doesn’t directly address Outlaw’s comment but it is interesting.
Also, interesting is they sort of had self-driving vehicles back then. For example, I saw an old film on YouTube of a milk delivery wagon where the driver didn’t even need to direct his horse to the next stop on their route. The horse knew all the stops.
They clearly were deficient in the number of beatings they doled out to you. You need many, many more.
Rights were given to you by your creator, not by your government.
Please list these rights in full.
Either the Creator fucked up or the government is shortchanging us.
That people can oppress you is not a new reality, son.
The founders created a government of enumerated powers and un-enumerated rights. The entire point is that rights cannot be listed.
Point is that my notion of our rights (enumerated or not) is always broader than a conservative's is.
And you wonder why nobody likes you.
What do you think this is? Facebook?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Yeah, you include the ‘right’ to fuck children. And also traffic in child sex videos. And I agree that you hav e their gut, no, the duty, to kill yourself.
Rancor – “Rights were given to you by your creator, not by your government.”
Shrike v1: ““Rights were given to you by your creator” My parents created me
Shrike v2 – “Please list these rights in full. Either the Creator fucked up or herp derp”
Look at Buttplug/Beaverhouse pretend that Rancor wasn’t referencing the intro in the Declaration of Independence.
Because Pluggo asked:
“We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
And quit sockpuppeting. You’re not tricking anybody.
These are the same guys that don't believe a human has a right to self defense and call for people like Rittenhouse and others defending themselves to be convicted.
I support the 2A and Rittenhouse, you moron. Republicans support more gun bans than I do (zero for me).
Your faggot overlord Soros doesn’t support Rittenhouse (An American hero), as he bankrolls DA candidates around the country that won’t prosecute vio,ent felons, but will aggressively prosecute innocent people for defending themselves.
Maybe your pedophilia has rotted what little brains you have.
Why do you even reply to the liar?
What lie?
Self awareness isn't a Sarcasmic superpower.
Sarc should stay away from Rittenhouse comments after saying how much it sucks Rittenhouse defending himself. Even agreeing with M4E on it.
Mike did the same.
Sarc's an idiot who believes everything he hears on CNN, whereas Mike's just malicious and angry.
You’re defending the pedophile? You’re not just a pathetic pussy, you’re a cunt too. A rotten one.
Now fuck off back into your garbage can like so much Oscar the Grouch.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
The DoI is not a US legal document, and hence that the FFs reference a creator here matters little. And still, you cannot assert that rights come from a creator without providing evidence for the existence of that creator, and that the creator is entitled to endow rights, and that you have correctly identified the rights that the creator has endowed us with -which prompts the question, by what mechanism do we know what rights have been endowed to us?
Your arguments are, fundamentally, faith-based. And to use Hitchen's Razor, that which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
I'm still not shrike, of course.
I have always wondered if Jefferson’s calling himself a “Deist” was the closest socially-acceptable alternative to coming out as an atheist back then. And when a Deist wrote that the “creator” endowed us with rights that he was just wrapping what he thought our rights are in quasi-religious language for his readers’ sake.
[B]y what mechanism do we know what rights have been endowed to us?
The threat of force and the honor of men far wiser than you.
They may have been far wiser but they were still of their time. Nor have you supplied an actual mechanism by which the creator advises humans of endowed rights. Were they handed down as footnotes on Mount Sinai? Were they provided to Jefferson - in violation of some Prime Directive, perhaps - by ultra-intelligent aliens?
I have found that people get pissed off at such questions because they have never had the intellectual curiosity to ask these questions themselves, just taking on board - and on faith - what their elders and, er, betters, have told them.
I have found that people get pissed off at such questions...
I'm not pissed at the question, but the conspicuous dishonesty behind it. How does one go about answering an epistemic paradox?
...they have never had the intellectual curiosity to ask...
Of course I've asked these questions; you're just too enamored of your convoluted rhetorical bullshit to believe a simple answer could possibly be satisfactory. Once again, the mechanism is the threat of force, be that by God or gun. The existence of God is immaterial; that the Founders believed God should exist as a predicate for liberty is what mattered. Tying the virtue of liberty to God implied damnation for those who would defy it. The gun promised to hasten one's damnation.
What conspicuous dishonesty? And what paradox?
What the FFs said or thought about rights might be relevant in a discussion on why the US's rights jurisprudence is the way that it is, or for a historical review of the evolving concept, but as an answer to where rights come from is either absurd or trivial to the point of uselessness.
The threat of force is not a mechanism whereby rights are recognised or endowed. It's simply a mechanism to get people to agree with you or to act as if they do. If I hold a 44 magnum to your head and say, "repeat after me, every adult has the right to go to Harvard and pay nothing, or I'll blow your head clean off" you may well say that but it doesn't make going to Harvard a right, And logically it doesn't matter whether it is I holding the gun or the FFs (a flintlock, perhaps, though).
Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Ah, another well-known debating trick. Are you ticking a checklist?
Answer the question.
Oh, and the Creator says you are shrike. :-p
(I still don’t know who the heck shrike was. A lot of people get accused of being his sock puppet, but I don’t remember anything about him.)
I remember that when I first posted here and one of the crackers, I forget whom, started calling me shrike, and I was mightily confused as I was aware of the butcher bird and the monster in Dan Simmons novels and when I wondered wtf they were talking about, they responded that of course I knew as I was a shrike sock. Etc. etc.
You’ve been here long enough to know Buttplug used to post under the name shrike. Come on now.
Keep in mind that turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Rights were given to you by your creator,
Proof of the existence of said creator, please.
Don't worry shrike. He isnt talking about soros. You can still worship.
All three socks pretending that Rancor wasn't referencing the "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" introduction in the Declaration of Independence.
I thought Shrike was just playing dumb, but if it got him this hopped up maybe it's genuine ignorance.
Proof of the existence of said creator, please.
The Creation.
Which you can't prove either. And it doesn't matter if you could. What's the differerence how we got here? We should make the most of it regardless.
Yes, by exterminating Marxism.
If you want to take a logical approach, rights are necessary for a productive society. Take them away and the result is oppression, poverty and death. When the government of Venezuela protected rights the country prospered. Now the country is in shambles. The explosion of wealth in China is a result of the government lessening restrictions on rights. All history and evidence points to the protection of rights as the source of human prosperity.
Well put! Add endorsing "negative rights" (the right to be left alone) as opposed to "positive rights" (my rights to enslave doctors, farmers, etc., to provide me medical care, food, etc., w/o paying them in willing, non-coerced exchanges), and THEN we've succinctly covered all that (IMHO) matters!
"If you want to take a logical approach, rights are necessary for a productive society. "
I think you mean a "pragmatic" approach. Deriving rights from a creator, or other inalienable premises, is almost always an exercise in logic.
Logic based upon pragmatic principles.
When Venezuela descended into socialism and therefore ruin, I’m sure there were a number of broken dunks inanely simping for the left there too. They were almost certainly total pussies, just like you.
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank You! -Reason Staff
Ooh, it reacted, I wonder if it puked out it’s ‘Tim the Enchanter’ bullshit.
Now, see, that makes sense. Trying to discover pre-existing "rights" is a fool's errand. We should try to figure out how society gets along best, and live like that.
Agreed. That makes sense.
Precisely so. It seems that some people need to adhere to the fiction of rights existing out in the void rather than as kinds of political heuristics.
If the left refuses to get along unless people bend to them, do we in the name of getting along?
Who decides what getting along is?
I thought you were smart enough to recognize that little document the founders made declaring their independence from you limeys.
Sad.
What the FFs believed to be natural rights doesn't make it so. Indeed, it is a very stupid argument to say, our rights come from our Creator because that's what the FFs put in the DoI.
What the FFs believed to be natural rights doesn’t make it so.
That the Founders believed it is exactly what makes it so. Their willingness to kill those who didn't also makes it so.
No. Believing something and killing people who don’t believe it tells you little about the truth or rightness of the belief, only something about the believers and the intensity of their belief.
You've moved the goalposts from What the FFs believed to be natural rights to the truth or rightness of the belief.
That the government believes you should pay taxes on your labor makes it so. Stop paying taxes for a while to learn the difference between the truth or rightness of your beliefs and the beliefs of the IRS.
People have, at all times and places, whatever power they can get away with. You can't win more freedom by "proving" it. It's not subject to objective, scientific determination.
Rancor - " the government cannot violate those rights"
Sorry, but you're wrong there. The government can violate our rights. The government has been doing so increasingly for a very long time. The only thing that could possibly stop the government from violating our rights would be an informed and concerned citizenry insisting, with force if need be. Since we do not have a citizenry that cares about liberty we have a government that no longer cares about the Constitution except to pay lip-service to it on Federal holidays.
"It is not obvious why allowing JPMorgan Chase or Google to effectively control one's ability to speak is any more inherently benign when individuals lack ready access to alternative providers of those services."
There are alternative providers of those services all over the place. Actions have consequences. If you speak or act out in a way your employer finds contrary to their policies or values, they have every right to terminate your employment, and you can easily find jobs elsewhere. There are millions of employers. If you run a business clubbing baby seals and your bank finds out and decides they don't want to support your business by providing you banking services, then they have every right to terminate your bank accounts, and you can easily find banking elsewhere. There are many banks available to you, and I'm sure you can find one that loves your seal-clubbing.
Government os working directly with the industries you mention. Social media colluding with government. Even your banking example is shown as corrupted by Obama Operation Chokepoint
With the development of ESG scores it is even more prevelant. A style of corporate fascism. Many of the examples you mention are in fact influenced by government and politicians. The regulatory industry, the revolving door between large business and government.
Putting laws in place to protect the individual for choice is not bad when the government has a heavy hand in industry. Full stop.
I can't figure out if these people don't understand this or if it is obscured by some preconceived ideas that won't allow it to be seen.
I thought there was no excuse to being blind to the problem back when Facebook, YouTube, Twitter et. al. all decided to ban the same 5 people on the same day. They all said they were acting on their own because of unspecified violations of their own (unnamed) policies. They all pretended like they were not secretly being directed from behind the scenes. And we called them out, tight here in the comments formerly known as HnR. (And at odds with the Reason editorial position that "that didn't happen" ).
They deny and deflect until evidence is overwhelming then declare conspiracy theory, facts changed, move on, ignore the next time it happens.
"I can’t figure out if these people don’t understand this or if it is obscured by some preconceived ideas that won’t allow it to be seen."
Shrike's paid not to.
Then they should also lose access to FDIC and ALL of the benefits that we, the people, pay for. Especially given the habit of them demanding massive bailouts, partially paid for buy the people they blacklist from their service.
Banks have no speech. Nobody knows who banks with them in the first place.
So banks should be the moral arbiters of society?
You have to ask why those businesses would want to shut people off, when all it does is reduce their own business. It could only be that they have no free hand in the matter, but are being directed, and therefore it would be no imposition on their liberty to keep them from doing so.
It’s possible they have a free hand are just being run by really really incompetent boobs.
Wingnut Todd "Big Bank Mouthpiece" Zywicki . . . libertarian?
Some of these disaffected right-wingers have been prancing around in unconvincing libertarian drag for so long they actually seem to think it is working!
Carry on, clingers. Especially the clingers at ASSLAW.
Fuck off and die, asshole bigot.
Open wider, clinger.
Or not.
You'll be complying with my preferences either way. Until you are replaced. By your betters.
Fuck off and die, asshole bigot.
Zywicki seems to be a typical “the left started the it” conservative or conservative-leaning libertarian who has blinders on when it comes to seeing all the ways culture warriors on the right also abuse people’s rights.
At least he doesn’t seem to be advocating, in this debate at least, for the type of rights-tromping over-reaction to the left that DeSantis exemplifies.
Cite?
We get it Mike. You only get upset when people push back against leftist actions. Keep pretending you're a centrist.
"for the type of rights-tromping over-reaction to the left that DeSantis exemplifies."
Remember how Churchill tromped all over the Nazi Party's rights?
By and large, conservatives are reactionaries, at least in so much as they react to the changing culture since the mid to late 60’s.
That you aren’t able to see or understand that simple fact says more about your blinders than theirs.
Oh, and nice job collectivizing and labeling Todd for arguing a point in a debate. It’s a complete mystery why anyone would accuse you of being sympathetic to the left….
Notice Mike's tactics here:
1) Smear Zywicki with some ad hominem. You see he is a typical conservative, and we know typical conservatives shouldn't be listened to, right?
2) Try to pit people against each other in a tangential argument. ("At least these people I disagree with aren't like the OTHER people I disagree with"). This is common with Mike when he sees that there isn't a lot of disagreement in the threads. He tries throwing in a grenade to get people focused on other stuff.
https://reason.com/2022/01/07/mandatory-gmo-disclosure-doesnt-sway-shopping-habits-but-will-drive-up-costs/?comments=true#comment-9293589
Mr "Citation" just levels unsupported allegations because the last thing he wants is civil debate here. He is a troll looking to stoke chaos.
There’s some of that patented Artie bigotry.
First let me say that while I appreciate Reason's attempt to give both sides of a debate, there is a reason why debates follow some sort of structure like proposition and rebuttal. The two articles talk past one another and do not address one another's points. Reason would do well to have both authors submit their initial case to one another in order to offer the opportunity for rebuttal. This would make the quality of these formats more engaging and useful.
I think the purpose here is more as a cover to the apparent bias found by Reasons current slate of authors. They can now literally claim both sides of the argument.
Yeah, the title itself is pretty openly whistling past the graveyard where individual freedom is buried. “Should the government intervene in the culture war?” was a question from *before* the government was locking people in their homes and silencing unfavorable narratives on Twitter. The real question is “Should the government stop entirely, which it hasn’t, or intervene further to combat what was done?” Fauci lied, locked people in their homes, caused the death of thousands and forcibly violated the bodily autonomy millions via his deception, does the government owe those people anything for that and/or protection going forward or should they just knock that shit off?
This is why after my TL;DR post below (a few hours ago), reading the entry didn't help. The question is stated too vaguely, rather than addressing a specific situation, so it reads like free floating platitudes.
https://twitter.com/fox32news/status/1649171272167817220?t=-ARqMVbGkVxVRs--NskdYA&s=19
A new idea on the table is an Amber Alert-like system to let Chicago parents know that a large, potentially violent youth gathering is happening.
[Link]
But the riots are the parents' fault. It's the potential innocent bystanders who need to be warned.
I'd suggest libertarians consider options to handle this or else this will fall under the tired "Libertarianism is like (fill in utter shithole with no rule of law here)" canard.
There are lots of options: batons, tear gas, rubber bullets, dogs, directed energy weapons, sonic weapons...
You think the parent cares?
The alarm will be going off constantly.
Including the parent sitting in jail?
I'm sure in many cases, they're already there.
So, at first blush, I kind of like the idea. It doesn't reflect on the city of Chicago very well but, that reflection wasn't very good to begin with and forewarned is forearmed.
Doing a second take however, I'm pretty sure this will be more of a (Daniel) Perry(winkle?) Alert system and the phrase "He knew an armed crowd of kids was coming his way and *deliberately* set about plotting to murder one of them." will be uttered at trial.
Let us start with one basic fact: This is all the government's fault. The revelations of how corporations tipped into enforcing the Leftist Culture War is a story of how empire-builders have used fascist tactics to amplify the impact of leftist politics while isolating, ostracizing and ultimately punishing those who would stand in their way- not just people on the right, but moderates who disagree with this special American brand of fascism.
While there are numerous examples of where this happens- from Title IX, to the EPA, to Operation Choke Point and Dodd Frank, we can see an example of this happening RIGHT NOW in how the government handles the regulation of a fiduciary.
For hundreds of years, it has been uncontroversial to say that a fiduciary has a responsibility solely to the interests of their clients. They do not get to use client money to favor their own business interests. They do not get to use it to favor their political biases or other personal interest. Their job is to maximize the return on their client's investment with responsible stewardship of their fund.
The federal government is now making regulations that allow personal bias if the fiduciary's bias is towards leftist politics. By allowing fiduciaries to consider ESGs in their decisions, the federal government is massively perverting the role of the fiduciary. We are not talking about a money manager whose client says "I don't want to invest in companies that use oil!" We are talking about major fund managers of pensions and mutual funds being allowed to chose a company for its DEI score rather than its financial performance.
These are fascist tactics. Create a dual playing field where anti-market behaviors are protected if those behaviors are leftist, while otherwise claiming to be a light touch. Tie up the "wrong" corporation in EPA reviews, while the "good" corporations pave over gun stores. Give easy loans to "good" businesses while forcing "bad" businesses to use cash only. Catch and release "good" protestors as they burn down a city, while throwing the book at "bad" protestors. Give contracts to the business that requires employees to jab needles in their arms, while shunning businesses that refrain. This has allowed leftists the room to plausibly deny that the government is forcing anything- to claim this is all the private actors at work, just so long as you ignore the strings tied around every actor's legs and arms.
The debate of whether or not government should engage in the culture wars is, frankly, dumb. Of course it shouldn't. None of that shit should be happening. But it is happening. It has been happening for decades, and so the question is what to do about it.
For years libertarians- especially those with leftist leanings- have offered technical objections to the government as it has engaged in these culture wars, or (as I note above) denied it was happening and insisted that these are just the decisions of private actors. And we see the latest iteration of this strategy in Mr Lassman's writing above:
"Consider a law such as, "The Treasury Department, or any other regulatory agency it supervises, shall not take climate change into account when conducting business or implementing a law." It is directionally sound and it keeps the government from oversteering financial institutions. But it is culture war by another name and the instrument of that warfare is government action. Far better to keep government agencies out altogether."
Notice that such a law would actually create more freedom. But because it isn't the PERFECT, Lassman says we should not approve of the law, and instead should only settle for the government getting out of financial regulation all together. Who is he kidding? Left-leaning libertarians are willing to compromise and get what they can when it comes to various deregulation schemes. We don't see Christian Brittschgi arguing against laws that force localities- even private covenants- to allow multi-family dwellings. He doesn't say "Far better to get government agencies out of zoning regulation all together".
Rolling back the largesse of government comes in fits and starts. Libertarians should not fall into the same trap of tactics that the left has been using for years- accepting incremental progress for some things while demanding perfection for others.
Say you stumble on a hiker bleeding out from a gash in their leg. There is a set of libertarians who would say to not apply the tourniquet because the perfect solution would be to stitch up the wound. They would wait until a surgeon or doctor appears to help the person bleeding out.
In these conversations libertarians need to understand the first act is to stop the bleeding. Some just refuse to do so.
I live in California, I would say let it bleed out because it's probably a prrogressive
I would say to aggressively attack the cancerous tumor that is the root cause until it’s exterminated.
“In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit.” -Ayn Rand
Very apt you selectively quoted her like any middleman justifying his actions either way would.
Sarc has never actually read her views, he just googles for quotes like he does every libertarian type author. Books are long. Quotes make it sound like he reads. He misuses them so often.
Rolling back the largesse of government comes in fits and starts.
When has that ever happened? Even the repeal of Prohibition wasn't a rollback of government because they kept the enforcement machine and applied it to different things.
"When has that ever happened? "
De-regulation of the airline industry. Mail delivery deregulation. Sunsetting of the brady bill. Some of the original banking deregulation (that has since been lost), such as changes that lifted the ban on interstate banking.
Is it rare? Sure. But even if you were right that the government never should roll back, that merely re-enforces my point that Lassman's stance was foolish. If the government will NEVER be rolled back, then we should not demand it instead of imperfect or incremental laws that ultimately benefit liberty.
But even if you were right that the government never should roll back...
I never said government shouldn't roll back. Fuck you and your strawman.
You are misinterpreting what I wrote. I meant it in the form of "should you find yourself at a crossroads" or "If government should be caught meddling in our affairs." I apologize for the inartful use of that term.
I understand that you were not implying that this is a desirable outcome. Should (hah!) you read the totality of my argument, you'll see that I was recognizing that you felt it was an inevitability, and that this means it is even more important to settle for incremental improvements.
I was recognizing that you felt it was an inevitability
I'm not the only one.
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield, and government to gain ground." - T. Jefferson
Trump reigning in the EPA, getting the mandate enforcing O-care removed, getting the US out of the Paris cluster-fuck.
Not much of a roll back as all those industries, except gun manufacturers, were heavily subsidized when they fucked up.
But those different things the enforcement machine was being applied to were already at play before federal prohibition repeal. And even if all they'd done was to make different things the object of enforcement, it'd still be a gain for liberty because liquor was by far the most popular so its prohibition had greater effects.
Freedom takes some very particular paths of growth. The USA had negro slavery for generations, but the important thing was that it had abolished slavery of whites. And limiting slavery to non-whites paved the way for abolition of slavery period.
“Rolling back the largesse of government comes in fits and starts. Libertarians should not fall into the same trap of tactics that the left has been using for years- accepting incremental progress for some things while demanding perfection for others.”
This is the reason for libertarians to ignore the LP; it proposes to do great things and in the 50 years of its existence has accomplished far less than Trump did in his 4 years in office.
If you live where your vote might matter, vote for the policies, not the party name. We need a Fabian approach.
“Let us start with one basic fact: This is all the government’s fault.”
It’s not a fact, basic or otherwise. Culture changes and blaming the government for change is wrong think. Attitudes towards sex and sexuality have been changing for the past century. The distinction between male and female seems to be losing its importance.
A short history lesson starting with pornography. The works of James Joyce and DH Lawrence were impounded and banned by the government. Sex change operations date back to the 50s when Christine Jorgensen went to Denmark to have the operation done. Silly to blame the government there. Also in the 50s the stigmatization of divorce began to erode. And in the 60s we had the introduction of the birth control pill, empowering women, not government. Cultural influencers like Mick Jagger began to appear in public in the clothes of their haute couture girlfriends. Again, blaming government for any of this is ridiculous. In the 70s we had the gay movement, initially sparked by police riots.
Cultures change, and governments, far from being instigators, are often the last to come around and see the writing on the wall. Sixty years after the introduction of the birth control pill, and only today have the courts got around to accepting the fact. Obama dragged his feet and opposed same sex marriage until it was widely accepted. Governments come and go, liberal or conservative, but change in attitudes towards sexuality continue regardless.
"Culture changes and blaming the government for change is wrong think."
I can imagine nothing more fitting than our resident commie using Orwellian terms like "wrong think". All while misstating my argument.
I did not blame government for change. I am blaming this government for putting us in the position of debating whether the government should have laws that enforce moral standards in the culture wars. We are debating it because the government is already doing it, and that is the government's fault.
"A short history lesson..."
This is hilarious, mtrueman's history lesson is to tell us that the government doesn't put its thumb on the scales, his first example is...to show government putting its thumbs on the scales, "The works of James Joyce and DH Lawrence were impounded and banned by the government." But I guess we shouldn't blame the government for that...
"are often the last to come around and see the writing on the wall."
And often they are pushing the changes on others. For example, the changes on transgendered sports are incredibly unpopular in the public at large.
But so what? mtrueman is trying to disprove an argument nobody here made. I did not argue that cultures don't change. I was arguing that government is already takes stands in the culture wars- a point that mtrueman admits when he points out that the government was banning books that were culturally unacceptable.
"I can imagine nothing more fitting than our resident commie using Orwellian terms like “wrong think”.
Orwell was a socialist. So was Eric Blair and many of his contemporaries.
"debating whether the government should have laws that enforce moral standards in the culture wars. "
The government, the state, or society has always had rules to enforce moral standards. You're a bit late if only now you see fit to debate this. If my history lesson on changing sexuality didn't convince you, check out laws governing cremation. The practice was scandalous during the 19th century and hotly debated. And no, the government didn't force anyone to debate the practice, any more than the government forced citizens to debate sexuality. It was already there in the zeitgeist.
"to show government putting its thumbs on the scales,"
To resist change in society's attitudes toward sexuality. Though the opposite is sometimes true. It was government that mandated racial integration of public schools, the military, the economy and housing. Often the public opposed such moves. Again, it's silly to say that the government forced anyone to debate these issues. People can disagree with each other without being goaded into it by the government. As I said, zeitgeist. The ghost of the times. The notion that somehow the government can resist it or is immune to it is wrong think.
"For example, the changes on transgendered sports are incredibly unpopular in the public at large."
I think it's early days yet. The unpopular changes will inevitably change and society may yet come to embrace transgendered sports. We managed to come around and finally accept mixed doubles, for example. It was less than a decade ago that mixed doubles curling was accepted as a sport worthy of Olympic competition. If our recent history tells us anything, it's that the distinction between the sexes is growing less important.
"I was arguing that government is already takes stands in the culture wars"
I doubt that any government anywhere, anytime has not taken a stand on the issues of the day. Often, but not always, they do so reluctantly and belatedly.
"Orwell was a socialist. "
Yeah, and his book 1984, like its spiritual predecessor, Zamyatin's "We"- was a criticism of the commie crazies who turned socialist dreams into commie totalitarian regimes. Those regimes used terms like thoughtcrimes and bad/wrongthink to perpetuate their rule. So it is fitting that you, our resident commie, acting just like those regimes.
"You’re a bit late if only now you see fit to debate this."
The debate was already happening. Scroll up to the top of this webpage and read the headline. Late or not, it is the purpose of this entire article. If you don't like that, go talk with Reason.
"I think it’s early days yet. The unpopular changes will inevitably change and society may yet come to embrace transgendered sports."
Yeah it is cute how you have constructed your argument to have it both ways. When the government enforces popular morality, and its bans on pornography were popular, you say they were resisting change. When they enforce an unpopular moral position, it is all about "wait and see". Your statements alone indicate that you know government is more than just a passive reflection of societal morals- that it can resist or promote changes in those morals. But rather than debate whether that is a good or bad thing, you prefer to obfuscate and use creepy terms like wrong think.
"I doubt that any government anywhere, anytime has not taken a stand on the issues of the day. Often, but not always, they do so reluctantly and belatedly."
And yet you were just arguing the opposite- that government choices FOLLOW popular changes, rather than take a stand in an attempt to influence them. But such muddled thinking is, alas, par for the course with you.
"Those regimes used terms like thoughtcrimes and bad/wrongthink to perpetuate their rule. "
'Wrongthink' was coined by Orwell. You had it right the first time around. Zamyatin was an 'old Bolshevik.' His work 'We' is interesting for its treatment of sexuality. Both he and Lenin (and of course Stalin later) were skeptical of the libertinage unleashed by the revolution.
"that government choices FOLLOW popular changes, rather than take a stand in an attempt to influence them"
It goes both ways. For years marijuana consumption was stigmatized and criminalized. By the government and society. I was surprised yesterday to see how 420 was celebrated in the media. And the government is slowly following suit. Even Oklahoma legalized 'medical marijuana' recently, over the objection of local politicians. Governments have the power to throw you in jail but they don't have to power to change to course of the zeitgeist. Attitudes towards sexuality, cremation, and marijuana will change over time regardless of which government is in power. That holds true even for totalitarian governments, as in your 'We' example.
"The debate was already happening. "
Government has always had some role in society laws and morals. Nobody is being forced to participate in a debate.
"Yeah it is cute how you have constructed your argument to have it both ways. When the government enforces popular morality, and its bans on pornography were popular, you say they were resisting change. When they enforce an unpopular moral position, it is all about “wait and see”.
Because government goes both ways. Sometimes ahead of its time and popular sentiment, sometimes behind it. Depends on the issue and the times.
"Your statements alone indicate that you know government is more than just a passive reflection of societal morals-"
Government is more than just a passive reflection. But there are other actors - the state, academia, our corporations, the unions, popular culture etc. Your blaming government for everything attributes magical power to the government. It makes an easy scapegoat, I realize, but it's wrongthink.
"‘Wrongthink’ was coined by Orwell. You had it right the first time around."
And I had it right the second time around. I didn't say Zamyatin coined that term, I said that his work was the spiritual predecessor to 1984. And it was.
But this is your standard MO- you start bringing up irrelevant factoids to try and distract from the fact that your arguments are shit. YOU used an Orwellian term. And when I called it, you tried digressing into esoteric talks about views on sexuality. It doesn't change the fact that you were doing exactly what Orwell described.
"It goes both ways. "
Then shut up. I don't need another random history lesson from you. The debate of this article was whether one of those ways- using government as a weapon in the culture wars- is appropriate. You tried disagreeing with me, and now you are admitting that I was correct. Everyone in the thread sees your obfuscation.
"Your blaming government for everything attributes magical power to the government. It makes an easy scapegoat, I realize, but it’s wrongthink."
And since I didn't blame government for "everything", you can go find someone else to bore with random tangents.
"And I had it right the second time around."
The second time around you claimed that totalitarian regimes used the term 'wrongthink.' Clearly wrong. The term was coined and used by Orwell and his followers, like myself. Totalitarian regimes used a variety of other terms to denote heterodox thinking: capitalist roader, trotskyite, and so on.
"And when I called it, you tried digressing into esoteric talks about views on sexuality."
You brought Zemyatin into the conversation, I merely expanded on it, pointing out the satire on sexuality in the early Bolshevik era in his book 'We.' I assumed you would appreciate the point, since it concerns government and social mores.
"Then shut up. I don’t need another random history lesson from you."
I thought you did need to be reminded of the history of sexuality over the past century. That's why I provided one for you. You stated “Let us start with one basic fact: This is all the government’s fault.” I confess I thought that by 'this' you meant change. I had no idea you meant that the government was forcing you to debate issues you found distasteful. Write with more clarity in future is my advice.
"The second time around you claimed that totalitarian regimes used the term ‘wrongthink.’ Clearly wrong"
Oh my god what a fucking bullshit nitpick. The regimes in his stories used those terms. And again, this is irrelevant. You are using Orwellian terms un-ironically. And when I called you on it, you tried bringing up a bunch of esoteric bullshit to try and distract from the fact that you are acting like one of those totalitarian crazies by accusing people of wrong think. You can talk about Orwell's views on sexuality, and how much you follow him as much as you want, it won't change the fact that you were caught acting like his bad guys.
"I confess I thought that by ‘this’ you meant change. I had no idea you meant that the government was forcing you to debate issues you found distasteful. Write with more clarity in future is my advice."
That is because you are too busy thinking in circles to actually comprehend what I wrote.
The distinction between male and female seems to be losing its importance.
That's absolutely incorrect. The distinction has increased exponentially, otherwise we wouldn't have thousands of men donning wigs, smearing lipstick on their faces and engaging in stereotypical acts of "female behavior", and calling anyone who doesn't fall for the ruse a "phobe".
It was specifically enlightenment values that sought to strip away the distinctions by attempting to treat people equally instead of focusing on superficial characteristics. However, the one thing it didn't do was try to deny biology. The Trans movement is attempting to reverse this progress by denying biology, and becoming laser-focused on superficial characteristics.
So... dude, what makes you a woman?
"Lipstick and me flouncing around and being emotionally fragile!"
"That’s absolutely incorrect."
No, I assure you it is absolutely correct. Wigs and lipstick have been worn by both sexes throughout the ages. George Washington wore a lovely powdered wig for his portraits and public appearances. They fell out of fashion for men, as fashion is fickle, but that's changing now.
" The distinction has increased exponentially,"
Again, absolutely incorrect. It's the number of men and women flouting the conventional distinctions that is increasing exponentially. Women wearing trousers. Men taking time off to care for infants. Women voting. Men insisting on being addressed by feminine pronouns.
"The Trans movement is attempting to reverse this progress by denying biology, and becoming laser-focused on superficial characteristics."
If by 'denying biology' you mean diminishing the importance of the the distinction between the sexes, I agree. And you seem to agree with me, as well, except for your impulse to morally condemn the move, whether it's wearing wigs or other trivialities I have little trouble with.
"Women wearing trousers. Men taking time off to care for infants. Women voting. Men insisting on being addressed by feminine pronouns."
And yet you have, once again, supported the argument of the person you are trying to debate with.
20 years ago, a woman wearing trousers was doing exactly what you claim- erasing the lines between men and women. "A woman can wear trousers, play basketball, and study engineering if they want to." The transgender movement is doing the opposite. "If I wear trousers, play basketball and study engineering, that is me expressing my male gender. I may have a uterus, but I am a man."
Transgender cult is intentionally confusing.
Their claim is biology does not equate to gender, but you have to conform to the physical changes brought on by biology of the gender you want to be.
It is entirely contradictory. Which is why mtrueman pushes it. As he himself (xerself) states, inanity is a means to an end. He is a self admitted troll.
"It is entirely contradictory. "
It's only contradictory if you recognize only two essential sexes, two essential genders. The transgender movement doesn't feel bound to those distinctions. Trans meaning going across, or through or beyond.
And wrong again.
“ He is a self admitted troll.”
Honestly, this is all anyone needs to know about him.
Forget about all this culture war stuff. Time to talk about me!
"The transgender movement is doing the opposite. “If I wear trousers, play basketball and study engineering, that is me expressing my male gender. "
I don't see it as opposite. Trans means going across. Men can cross over to women and vice versa. Or they can go with any of the other 34 genders that have been identified. That's erasing the lines. I said it right at the outset: the distinction between men and women is losing its importance. Not all that different from transhumanism, another bunch of 'biology deniers,' erasing the lines between man, machine and monster.
"Or they can go with any of the other 34 genders that have been identified."
Oh please. They are not saying, "if I wear trousers and play baseball I am gender #23." They are saying that tomboys are BOYS, who happen to have chests that need to be bound. They really are putting in kids' books that if Johny likes pink and unicorns he is actually a girl. It is the inversion of gender norms as determinants of your gender, rather than societal projections of gender.
These trans women trying to get into women's swimming aren't saying that they are no-genders, or beyond genders. They are biological males who say that they are women. Women. And if you don't nod enthusiastically and agree that they are 100% women, they rheeee and call you a transphobe.
So you are spouting bullshit. Again.
Your word vomit isn't going to change anything. You think that you can start slinging bizarre terminology or quoting decades old historical figures, hoping that your pseudo-intellectual tangents get people to assume you know your shit. But you don't. You are making it up, as you did above, and in this specific case you are wrong.
"They are saying that tomboys are BOYS, who happen to have chests that need to be bound. "
I keep telling you, the hard and fast distinctions between the sexes that served us so well in the past are disappearing. It's hard to accept, I understand, but that's the long and short of it.
"They are biological males who say that they are women. "
I keep telling you, the ideas of what separates man from women are undergoing change. I get that you disapprove, but that's what's going on here. It's as simple as that. Society's attitudes towards sexuality have been changing, liberalizing you might say, for the past century. High time you understood this. And don't blame the government. It's moronic.
You must remember, when dealing with trueman, that his goal is hoping someone clicks on his handle and doubles the monthly hits on his worthless web site.
The asshole’s posts here fail to inform you of trueman’s assholery, perhaps this might help:
mtrueman|8.30.17 @ 1:42PM|# “Spouting nonsense is an end in itself.”
This is presumed to be an intellectual claim of transident importance by the asshole known as mtrueman. In reading posts by turd; you should assume lies; posts by trueman should be assumed to be nonsense.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard."
H. L. Mencken
It was like the argument and the federal court decision that Colorado voters should not be allowed to amend their constitution to keep sex orientation from being added to the list of qualities that private businesses (hiring, renting, lending) would not be allowed to discriminate on the basis of. Such an amendment would increase freedom, since businesses would be allowed to do more things as their owners see fit, but it was deemed discriminatory in a way that denied equal protection of the laws because so many other groups had these non-discrimination privileges democratically enacted, so why not let this interest group make their stab at getting such privileges in a democracy as well? And I seem to recall HyR bloggers at least subtly favoring that side at the time.
Well said Overt.
While I agree with the premise of the article (and even more so your post) it's hard to ignore that it's too late and it's already been happening for decades.
Saying it's 'wrong, and we shouldn't do it' is all well and good except for the fact that it's already been a thing for longer than most of the Reason writers have been alive.
In short, it's so pervasive that it seems most people don't even notice it anymore.
Summary
The question, “Do the benefits of youth gender transitions outweigh the risks of harm?” remains unanswered because of a paucity of follow-up data. The conclusions of the systematic reviews of evidence for adolescents are consistent with long-term adult studies, which failed to show credible improvements in mental health and suggested a pattern of treatment-associated harms. Three recent papers examined the studies that underpin the practice of youth gender transition and found the research to be deeply flawed. Evidence does not support the notion that “affirmative care” of today’s adolescents is net beneficial. Questions about how to best care for the rapidly growing numbers of gender-dysphoric youth generated an intensity of divisiveness within and outside of medicine rarely seen with other clinical uncertainties. Because the future well-being of young patients and their families is at stake, the field must stop relying on social justice arguments and return to the time-honored principles of evidence-based medicine.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11930-023-00358-x
The question, “Do the benefits of youth gender transitions outweigh the risks of harm?” remains unanswered because of a paucity of follow-up data.
The way they base truth on hypotheses that failed from the get go and then insist more data needs to be collected seems so familiar: They say,’You really need a high level of proof to change recommendations,’ which is ironic because they never had a high level proof to set them. -Walter Willett
It’s an inverse of Blackstone’s Ratio, if they have to pile up 10, 100, or 1,000 bodies in order to marginally help one person, well, that’s just the price to be paid.
In a democracy, libertarians should never support new government power, even a weapon in the culture war, that we would not readily grant to the anti-liberty zealots among us.
DON'T TALK ABOUT DESANTIS!
Awkward placement but I see that you’ve wheeled out your favorite troll again today.
So here’s your attention, Sarcasmic:
===>LOVELY ATTENTION FOR SARC!!!<===
Hizzoner, who earlier this week blasted the White House for turning its back on NYC, sounded the alarm on the multi-billion-dollar cost to the Big Apple budget during a visit to Washington, DC on Friday, where he plans to press the administration for federal aid.
.
“The city is being destroyed by the migrant crisis,” a distressed Adams said before his scheduled meeting, during a panel discussion hosted by the African American Mayors Association.
New York sees in a year the number of migrants border states see in a month. Amazing how the shopping of illegal immigrants to sanctuary cities changes their views quickly.
It hasn’t changed their views, they just want the Biden Administration to stop those icky red states from sending them migrants.
Biden declares all LGBTQ+ illegal immigrants will be granted amnesty. Also those with limited English proficiency.
So amnesty is no longer a thing.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/heres-why-we-might-be-getting-a-whole-lot-more-lgbtq-identifying-illegal-aliens
And, of course, it will be impossible to undo in the future. Because that is how we roll.
DACA precedent.
+Bostock
Joe Biden should be impeached regularly regardless of the possibility of conviction. One crime after another from this asshole but the D.C. Republicans are too dainty and ladylike to put it back on the table.
BTW, matters are set to get a whole lot worse:
"Biden signs order prioritizing 'environmental justice'"
[...]
"President Joe Biden on Friday signed an executive order that would create the White House Office of Environmental Justice.
The White House said it wants to ensure that poverty, race and ethnic status do not lead to worse exposure to pollution and environmental harm. Biden tried to draw a contrast between his agenda and that of Republican House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. GOP lawmakers have called for less regulation of oil production to lower energy prices, while the Biden administration says the GOP policies would give benefits to highly profitable oil companies and surrender the renewable energy sector to the Chinese..."
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/biden-signs-order-prioritizing-environmental-justice/ar-AA1a8VEy?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=222aa044082e43129281e5dd1b0d
Like turd, Bicen lies. It's all Biden does.
These articles also miss an opportunity to discuss a unique effort at play here. We aren’t talking about a monolithic government here. We are talking about numerous local, country and state governments in tension with an increasingly weaponized Federal government.
This is the culture war. It is not just Team Red and Team Blue arguing over stuff. It is weaponized Government A vs Weaponized Government B. And acting as if Government B’s actions are being done in a vacuum is denying reality. And this is where the Reason writers have repeatedly let their blue-bubble sympathies confuse them on when to support or oppose actions. A perfect example of this was on display during the Covid19 lockdowns.
When DeSantis made a rule that STATE AGENTS could not mandate the masking and vaccination of its employees, Soave objected, “That’s the aspect of this story for which DeSantis deserves criticism: His COVID-19 declarations get in the way of individual public schools or districts requiring teachers to get vaccinated as a condition of employment.”
https://reason.com/2021/08/13/broward-florida-teachers-died-covid-19-mask-mandate-unvaccinated-desantis/
Let’s set aside that there is no libertarian principle that says many state agents have more right to infringe our liberties than their boss. Even if we did agree that there is some libertarian prerogative that says a Principle of a State Institution should be “free” to infringe the liberties of citizens, while his great-great-grandboss should stay back, this ignores the fact that the Principles were not operating in a “free” market. Absent guidance from the state, schools would have deferred to the CDC, which was already pushing its cultural warfare with policies that were not backed by science.
And so, the choice for libertarians was not “Let the local Agents of the State decide as they wanted” vs “Force a decision by the state”. It was “Local agents of the state enforce federal rules” vs “Local agents of the state are prohibited from enforcing federal rules.” Or more simply it was “Let the federal government culture war continue” vs “resist it.”
And Soave was 100% wrong in his reflexive action here. Not only was he wrong in assuming that DeSantis was INITIATING force instead of resisting it. But he was also wrong in assuming that DeSantis’s action was restricting freedom. It increased freedom. If you wanted to voluntarily mask/vaccinate, and peacefully convince others to do so, you were allowed to do it. You merely could not enlist a state agent to force people one way or the other to your preference.
Edit: Added link to Soave's terrible article.
Let's be reeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEeeeeeeaonable about our criticism of universal masking.
And you know, I wear a mask so people don't think I'm a republican! First principles!
Your first mistake is thinking there is any libertarian thought left at Reason. It happened a while ago, and very quickly, but there are no libertarians left at Reason. At the best I might call them classic liberals not woke ones, but even that would be stretch.
Rolling my eyes. No hyperbole in that comment.
Happy Earth Day everybody!!!
(It's also Lenin's birthday. What a coinkydink)
Europe Worries That America Fights Climate Change Too Much
Companies are crossing the Atlantic to soak up green-energy subsidies, prompting fears of a new trade war.
Government funded "free" trade. It must be protected. Ask sarc.
TL;DR, but the question is loaded. There's no way to answer it absent the specifics, and then attempts to generalize from them are fraudulent.
https://twitter.com/FrankDeScushin/status/1649521265378578432?t=MDZjPKZWSBwn0AAZvWUOLg&s=19
A California school district asked board members to complete a white ally assessment. Board members rated their agreement to statements like:
"I understand the damage and devastation whites have perpetuated on people of color over the centuries and currently."
Let's assess!
[Thread, examples]
“I understand the damage and devastation whites have perpetuated on people of color over the centuries and currently.”
"Noble Savage" bullshit. Yeah, the "people of color" of the world lived in peace, love, and harmony until whitey showed up.
Well, yeah. If white people didn't invent damage and destruction then "[Catastrophe happens] diverse minorities hardest hit." wouldn't be invariably true.
What happens when anti-liberty zealots get the same powers?
this is the situation we are in NOW. The anti-liberty zealots are in full control and not looking back.
Exactly. We already know the answer because it's already happened and apparently the author and the debaters didn't notice.
https://rumble.com/v2j8t6m-system-update-show-74.html
Forget about the culture wars, here’s what’s going on. Glenn Greenwald exposes the U.S. government arrests of longtime black leftists felony charges. U.S. Government calls these black men Russian disinformation agents. I have checked every single so called “leftist” outlet and nothing, crickets. The only so called “right wing” shows denouncing this shakedown are Tucker Carlson and Glenn Beck.
Nothing from Reason on this.
Seems like Fascism is the new left/right dichotomy. The culture wars are a shell game of sorts.
Forgot to mention, these arrrested guys are 2A activists also.
Reason will decry Russian treatment of a journalist but will simp silently for this. See 10 years for memes.
No-no, Sarcasmic and Mike insist that they're not ignoring this. It's just that they can't possibly cover everything when there's food trucks being oppressed and babies unaborted.
https://twitter.com/MattyBoySwag143/status/1649365184350236672?t=901xumVWOm0dlNXUKnSbHA&s=19
In light of recent events in Kansas City, does the media truly selectively focus on white criminals over POC ones?
Yes, seemingly so. A murderer's race is mentioned 4x more often if he is white rather than black.
1/6
[Thread, links]
It’s been that way for a long long time. Journalism is dead, with the exception of Greenwald, Taibbi, Hersh, Shellenberger. But the silence is changing. Yesterday Lori Lightfoot was calling out Soros funded prosecutors for destroying Chicago. Eric Adams in NYC is calling out the open borders policies of the Biden administration as bankrupting the city.
We didn't get here with a lot of governmental intervention (although I'm apt to convinced otherwise) so we can get out without a lot of governmental intervention. Although I appreciate the efforts.
We got here thanks to lots of government intervention. Mostly regulators and government schools listening to "experts" in the form of clinical psychologists (a study I put zero faith in in part because every single person I know who studied the subject did so to understand their fucked-up selves).
Huh, I had forgotten about Greta Thunberg's tweet about how climate change was going to wipe out humanity in 5 years.
That tweet has been deleted.
It's a mystery... where did the money go... why was it mismanaged? Who's at fault? Tough questions to answer...
@shellenberger
Victory!
Gov. @GavinNewsom finally calls out the National Guard to shut down the open-air drug dealing in San Francisco!
LFG!
https://www.sfchronicle.com/politics/article/newsom-fentanyl-drug-crisis-sf-breed-tenderloin-17911401.php
to quote Newt "It doesnt make any difference"
I guess Newsom has finally had enough of all that *checks Gavin Newsom's twitter feed* freedom.
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1649878206713933826?t=KSmNEy8bbgTac4vTzmMZeg&s=19
Two #Chicago youths have been charged with only misdemeanors after allegedly going for a joyride in a stolen vehicle & crashing into a family driving on the road. A baby was killed in the crash & the mother & other children were hospitalized.
[Link]
But did they sleep with a porn star?
Dude, you're talking about the State that, after a string of several illegal immigrants driving tractor-trailers over minivans full of families without licenses, set up a program to offer temporary licenses to illegal immigrants only to see an increase in the total number of crashes and fatalities in subsequent years.
https://twitter.com/Partisan_O/status/1649892520308899843?t=SWPC-y07Ns3XWiBQfqUf8w&s=19
The “Deep State” is a conspiracy theory, but a consortium of intelligence agencies, NGOs, think tanks, and tech & media companies working together to influence the outcome of an election is D E M O C R A C Y
WTF are you talking about? Progressive government started the culture war and it is the primary driver of the culture war, abusing government powers to pursue it.
Progressive government IS the anti-liberty zealots. And Reason is complicit with the anti-liberty zealots in government by protecting them and shifting the blame.
Zywicki wrote:
The arbitrary exercise of private power will be checked by market forces and freedom of choice. Employers or restaurants that discriminate will find themselves bankrupted in competition with those that do not. Adapt or die.
If this is true, then there should be examples from history over the last 100 years or so where market forces stopped discrimination and government action was unnecessary. Well, I think that the history of the United States shows that it doesn't work that way. It wasn't market forces that ended segregation in the South. It was a civil rights movement that got the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed and many years of federal enforcement of it. Perhaps Zywicki is supportive of those that want to ban CRT (or more accurately, anything that can be pejoratively labeled as CRT) so that people will forget that history played out that way.
This libertarian utopian ideal of market forces preventing discrimination makes a lot of assumptions about human nature and politics that just aren't true. Not least of which is an assumption that those with greater wealth and economic power than others won't also wield greater political power than others. The people and businesses that discriminated against minorities and women in decades past were enabled in their actions by being able to pull levers of political power as well as by having greater control over capital than the general population. Market forces had no chance to act against them.
Thus, Zywicki and those that think like him want to use government power to limit the ability of "woke" corporations to join in with the culture wars. Why not limit the ability of corporations to engage in politics generally? No more supporting or opposing political candidates or citizen referendums with campaign money or issue ads, wining and dining politicians while lobbying them for favorable regulations, and so on. Let everyone that works at a business or owns shares of a business exercise political power like everyone else: with their one person/one vote in elections. Nah, we only need to limit the ability of corporations to influence government and culture when they do things we don't like.
This is the steaming pile of lefty shit who defends murder of the unarmed to prevent any future (undefined) actions which asshole here might find objectionable:
JasonT20
February.6.2022 at 6:02 pm
“How many officers were there to stop Ashlee Babbitt and the dozens of people behind her from getting into the legislative chamber to do who knows what?...”
Notice the asshole defending murder is also incapable of consistency:
“…This libertarian utopian ideal of market forces preventing discrimination makes a lot of assumptions about human nature and politics that just aren’t true. Not least of which is an assumption that those with greater wealth and economic power than others won’t also wield greater political power than others. The people and businesses that discriminated against minorities and women in decades past were enabled in their actions by being able to pull levers of political power as well as by having greater control over capital than the general population. Market forces had no chance to act against them.
“This libertarian utopian ideal of market forces preventing discrimination makes a lot of assumptions about human nature and politics that just aren’t true…”
Followed by:
“…The people and businesses that discriminated against minorities and women in decades past were enabled in their actions by being able to pull levers of political power…”
So it follows that market forces can’t prevent discrimination once the government prevents those forces from functioning. Jasont20 is certainly a murderous piece of shit, and he ain’t real smart, either.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
"...If this is true, then there should be examples from history over the last 100 years or so where market forces stopped discrimination and government action was unnecessary. Well, I think that the history of the United States shows that it doesn’t work that way..."
Well, slimy piece of lefty shit:
"... Employing more than 30,000 for an integrated workforce in New Orleans (pictured at left[1]). Higgins employed blacks and women among them, which was uncommon practice at the time..."
https://cs.stanford.edu/people/eroberts/courses/ww2/projects/fighting-vehicles/higgins-boat.htm
Yes, it was uncommon, especially since Higgins factory was in New Orleans. Farther north, not as uncommon, but lefty shits are going to lefty shit.
“…Perhaps Zywicki is supportive of those that want to ban CRT (or more accurately, anything that can be pejoratively labeled as CRT) so that people will forget that history played out that way….”
Perhaps the slimy pile of lefty shit will provide cites confirming CRT is an accurate history of race relations in the US as opposed to offering lefty assertions.
Target rich area here folks; jasont20 is a real piece of shit.
(or more accurately, anything that can be pejoratively labeled as CRT)
I don't know who's behind the gray box but I thought CRT was the appreciative term for systemic race essentialism or just racism. I mean, it's baked into the ideology de novo, cine que non, balls-to-bones. You must look at something critically through the lens of race, if you look at things objectively or empirically or inductively or deductively or summarily/wholistically or reductionally or combinatorially or uncritically or economically or systematically or clinically or historically or patriotically or whatever... you specifically aren't doing critical race theory.
Jason, you are proving yourself to be as dishonest/stupid as turd:
"...Let everyone that works at a business or owns shares of a business exercise political power like everyone else: with their one person/one vote in elections..."
When working at a F500 corp many years ago, all employees were polled on corporate 'positions', but as a libertarian even then, others held the majority.
",..Nah, we only need to limit the ability of corporations to influence government and culture when they do things we don’t like..."
Sort of like gov't agents strong-arming the media to withhold damaging information regarding droolin' Joe just prior to the elections, asshole? Those sorts of 'corporation' speech, you lying pile of shit?
Fuck off and die, but mark your grave so I can stand in line to piss on it.
Short version: Public school systems being "left alone" to do whatever the fuck they want to your children with no interference from the hoi polloi is not "more liberty".
Paul, reticent grammar Nazi: hoi = the.
"...with no interference from xxx hoi polloi is not “more liberty”..."
Muy betta.
Of course it is imperfect, but local control is more likely to fit the preferences of more local parents than distant control is.
Just because one likes how state-level control is going in Florida, doesn’t negate the above principle. Just waiting for those who defend DeSantis’ heavy-handed approach with state-level control of education to decry the Federal Department of Education for its interference in more local educational decision-making.
PROBLEM: The miss-conceived notion that 'private business' still exists. The USA is a socialist nation at this point by any measure one wants to throw at it.
Every problem or symptom the faulty assumed 'private business' has was founded in the [Na]tional So[zi]alist - Empire building in USA politics. When the USA decides they are tired of Nazism (socialism) woke 'private business' will be run out of business.
This already happened during reconstruction.
Although it is tempting to claim that powerful private institutions are just as bad – or worse – than government as justification for trying to get government power into the mix, both the claim and the hoped-for government effect are false. It behooves libertarians not to succumb to the siren-song of outcomes over principles. Aside from the fact that government is now a long, long ways away from being a neutral agent enforcing equal rights to freedom under the law and should never, ever be trusted to weigh in on the side of liberty; there is not now and never will be a guarantee that individuals will not be punished by private social actors for their opinions. While you might have a Constitutional right to free speech, there is no guarantee that others will hear you or be influenced by your opinion. There is no right to employment, Constitutional or otherwise. If we can limit government to prevent it from intruding on personal matters, while only investigating and punishing a small number of crimes against our lives and property that will be the best – and only good – outcome possible.
"If we can limit government to prevent it from intruding on personal matters,"
You should take heed of the warnings of Edward Snowden. According to him, an ex- computer expert in the NSA, the state has never had more capability on intruding on personal matters. Thanks largely to smart phones and the internet. It's not just government that has this unprecedented capability, but corporate and criminal enterprises, and anyone else with the know how to do so.
And good luck with limiting the size of government. Even those politicians who promise to drain the swamp and other such claptrap manage to increase the size of government. Under Trump, government employment increased over Obama levels with over 22 million employees, and the federal budget increased by about a trillion.
It doesn't matter to me what snoopers can find out about me. If it matters to you, how does that concern me? What matters to me is what the government authority is allowed by my fellow citizens to DO to me with the information they gather. It matters to me what private agents DO to me with the information they have about me. If government agents violate the Constitution in order to punish me, that is and should be a crime and they should be punished for those crimes. If private organizations commit crimes against me, they should be punished under the law. That is the proper function of government and, in my opinion, the ONLY proper function of government. Although I am skeptical that our society can or will ever achieve that goal, that should be the goal.
"It doesn’t matter to me what snoopers can find out about me. If it matters to you, how does that concern me? "
Don't take my word, speak to Ed if you want all the details. How do you feel about someone hoovering up everything thing they can about you and selling the info to others for them to exploit? You don't mind being electronically milked? Letting others drink your milkshake, like that guy in that movie.
" that is and should be a crime and they should be punished for those"
My take is that the US is a failing state, and relying on the proper function of state organs like courts is a bad bet.
"that should be the goal."
I think we should go forward rather than trying to go back to times past. I don't know what going forward looks like or should look like, but it will be different from what you want to restore. Mine is what you'd call a radical position. At the levels of roots.
mtrueman - I don't know what the future looks like either but I don't want to restore any particular aspect of the past. My point was that it's impossible to prevent snoopers from snooping. It IS, however, possible to punish people who harm you - with or without government power on your side in accomplishing it. The only way that can ever happen is if a large number of people unite to enforce our rights based on a mutual benefit principle.
" however, possible to punish people who harm you "
People come and go. But the system, man, it remains. Perhaps this intrusive surveillance will become so integrated in the economy that the only way not to feed the algorithms is to massively withdraw from the socially networked space. Perhaps those hipsters and their vinyl LPs, and retro things are on to something.
“If we can limit government to prevent it from intruding on personal matters,”
So.... "If [we] can elect politicians who honor their oath of office instead of electing Al'Capone's who make campaign promises to break the supreme law..."
There's really nothing confusing about it. Until the people find usefulness in the US Constitution [Na]tional So[zi]alism and the tyranny that comes with it will continue to grow.
There are degradations in American culture that cannot be fixed by more government.
We have few adults acting like adults. And we are even electing extremely childish people as our leaders. Being a dumb-ass is celebrated.
There used to be widely accepted bedrock principles of what it meant to be American:
- Mind your own business.
- America is a melting pot.
- I might not like what you are saying but I will defend to the death your liberty to say it.
So we basically have a well thought out argument pointing out how everything is already being weaponized in the name of in ideology of intolerance and totalitarianism... and Kent with the argument that mass infringements on liberty doesn't count because it's not wholly from the government....... riiiight.
Kent got BTFO in a ridiculously one sided debate!
He is a Reverend attracted to people who have issues with authority figures...
You Denny Hastert conservatives do like to project.
You Lincoln Project neocons do like to deflect.
turd, the ass-clown of the commentariat, lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a kiddie diddler, and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
You just wish he made videos for you to jerk it to. Fucking faggot pedo.
One guy. Democrats have you, Biden, Clinton, Weiner, Weinstein, Lemon, every rapist and pedophile in Hollywood, about a third of antifa, etc.. and your master, Soros, funds DA’s around the country who let pedophiles go.
So fuck off you cunt pedo raping piece of shit.
And lie. When dealing with turd, assume lies. You won't be wrong.
Yesterday Kirkland claimed Glenn Reynolds wasn't a libertarian either.
Apparently he's confused "libertarianism" with the policies of Stalin and Mao.
Prof. Reynolds referred to himself as a movement conservative in writing.
Other than that, great comment, clinger!
"Reynolds referred to himself as a movement conservative in writing."
Where?
He's made a point to consistently refer to himself as libertarian and a libertarian only. He said he identifies more with conservatives nowadays because self-identifying liberals have become anti-liberal.
Fuck off and die, asshole bigot.
In a February 20, 2008 letter.
Prof. Reynolds in an unhinged, polemically partisan wingnut and a disaffected culture war casualty. Just another right-wing loser masquerading a libertarian.
Everyone should click on Kirkland's link to see what qualifies as evidence for the dishonest fuck.
Kirkland links to a letter signed at that point by 168 "conservatives and anti-pork activists" including Reynolds, and decides to allocate Reynolds to the conservative side, even though the intro clearly says there are both "conservatives in the Movement and advocates for a free society".
The letter was asking congressman John Shadegg of Arizona not to resign as he was needed in the fight for "holding the line on spending, reforming our healthcare system, and facing the growing threat of radicalism"
That's Kirkland's "evidence" that Reynolds is a "movement conservative".
What garbage he is.
Reynolds signed a letter as a "conservative in the movement." Are you saying he is too dumb to understand what he signed? He is from Tennessee, sure, but as a law professor he likely is somewhat literate.
Reynolds was a Bush-Cheney "libertarian" (supported invading the wrong country); today, he hires nothing but hard-core wingnuts to operate his blog.
Gullible, disingenuous misfits might consider Reynolds a libertarian. Everyone else recognizes him as a disaffected clinger.
Take the loss and move on. You should be used to it.
Anyone who reads Instapundit recognizes that Reynolds is far more wingnut than libertarian.
Disaffected contrarians will disagree, of course . . . but who cares, other than other antisocial right-wing malcontents?