The Ruling Upholding the Gun Rights of People Subject to Restraining Orders Is Not As Crazy As You Might Think
The 5th Circuit noted that such orders can be issued without any credible evidence of a threat to others.

The Biden administration is asking the Supreme Court to reverse a recent decision in which an appeals court concluded that the federal ban on gun possession by people subject to domestic-violence restraining orders violates the Second Amendment. In a petition filed this month, Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar portrays that law as a commonsensical precaution that is "consistent with the Nation's historical tradition of firearm regulation"—the constitutional test that the Court established last year in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association v. Bruen. But there are reasons to doubt that the "historical analogues" cited by the government are close enough and ample cause to worry about the threat that the policy it is defending poses to civil liberties.
Under 18 USC 922(g)(8), which Congress enacted in 1994, it is a felony, currently punishable by up to 15 years in prison, for someone to possess firearms when he is "subject to a court order" that restrains him from "harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner" or "engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury." The provision requires that the order be issued after a hearing of which the respondent received notice. It also says the order must either include a finding that the respondent "represents a credible threat" to the intimate partner's "physical safety" or explicitly prohibit "the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force" that "would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury."
The man at the center of this case, a Texas drug dealer named Zackey Rahimi, was convicted of violating Section 922(g)(8) in circumstances that suggest he is exactly the sort of person who should not be trusted with firearms. But his conduct allegedly included a string of violent crimes that would themselves disqualify him from owning guns. The question raised by this case is not whether someone like Rahimi should be allowed to own guns. It is whether the government violates the Second Amendment when it deprives people of the right to armed self-defense based on nothing more than a restraining order that may have been issued without any credible evidence that the respondent poses a danger to others.
When it overturned Rahimi's conviction in February, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit noted that he is "hardly a model citizen," which is putting it mildly. In December 2019, Prelogar notes, "Rahimi and his girlfriend C.M. had an argument in a parking lot in Arlington, Texas. C.M. tried to leave, but Rahimi grabbed her wrist, knocking her to the ground. He then dragged her back to his car, picked her up, and pushed her inside, causing her to hit her head on the dashboard. Realizing that a bystander had seen him, he retrieved a gun and fired a shot. In the meantime, C.M. escaped the car and fled the scene. Rahimi later called her and threatened to shoot her if she told anyone about the assault."
Two months after that incident, a Texas judge issued a two-year restraining order against Rahimi that met the requirements of Section 922(g)(8). Rahimi was notified of the hearing but did not attend.
In August 2020, Prelogar says, Rahimi "tried to communicate with C.M. on social media and approached her house in the middle of the night, prompting state police to arrest him for violating the order." That November, "he threatened another woman with a gun, leading the State of Texas to charge him with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon."
Wait. There's more:
Rahimi then participated in a series of five shootings in December 2020 and January 2021, First, after someone who had bought drugs from him "started talking 'trash'" on social media, he went to the man's home and fired bullets into it using an AR-15 rifle. The next day, after colliding with another vehicle, he alighted from his car, shot at the other driver, fled, returned to the scene, fired more shots at the other car, and fled again. Three days later, Rahimi fired a gun in the air in a residential neighborhood in the presence of young children. A few weeks after that, a truck flashed its headlights at Rahimi when he sped past it on a highway; in response, Rahimi slammed his brakes, cut across the highway, followed the truck off an exit, and fired multiple shots at another car that had been traveling behind the truck. Finally, in early January, Rahimi pulled out a gun and fired multiple shots in the air after a friend's credit card was declined at a fast-food restaurant.
The investigation prompted by those incidents resulted in state charges against Rahimi. It also resulted in his conviction under Section 922(g)(8). He appealed that conviction, arguing that the provision was inconsistent with the Second Amendment. But the 5th Circuit had already ruled, back in 2001, that Section 922(g)(8) was constitutional, and it did so again in Rahimi's case last year, taking into account what the Supreme Court had said about the Second Amendment in the meantime.
The 5th Circuit's decision was published on June 8, two weeks before the Supreme Court's decision in Bruen, which concluded that New York had violated the Second Amendment by demanding that residents show "proper cause" for exercising the right to bear arms. Bruen explicitly rejected the sort of two-step analysis that the 5th Circuit had applied in assessing the constitutionality of Section 922(g)(8).
Under that approach, a court first asked whether the conduct prohibited by a gun control law was covered by the Second Amendment. If so, the court weighed the law's purported public safety benefits against its restriction of gun rights, applying either strict or intermediate scrutiny. Bruen replaced that approach with a historical test that asks whether a challenged law is "relevantly similar" to regulations that have traditionally been seen as consistent with the original understanding of the right to keep and bear arms.
Reconsidering Rahimi's case in light of Bruen, the 5th Circuit concluded that the government had failed to meet that test. The government cited three kinds of gun regulations: 1) laws authorizing the disarmament of "dangerous" individuals, 2) laws against "going armed" in a threatening manner, and 3) laws that required people to post a "surety" before carrying guns in public when they allegedly posed a threat to particular individuals.
"The purpose of laws disarming 'disloyal' or 'unacceptable' groups was ostensibly the preservation of political and social order, not the protection of an identified
person from the threat of 'domestic gun abuse,'" Judge Cory T. Wilson notes in a February 2 opinion for a unanimous 5th Circuit panel that also included Judges James C. Ho and Edith H. Jones. "Thus, laws disarming 'dangerous' classes of people are not 'relevantly similar' to § 922(g)(8) such that they can serve as historical analogues."
The 5th Circuit also thought the four colonial or state laws against "going armed" cited by the government did not bear a constitutionally relevant resemblance to Section 922(g)(8). A 1786 Virginia statute, for example, made it a crime to "go or ride armed by night or by day, in fairs or markets, or in other places, in terror of the country." It authorized the arrest and imprisonment of any violator, who would then "forfeit his armour to the Commonwealth."
Wilson notes that Virginia and Massachusetts "dropped forfeiture as a penalty" in 1795 and 1847, respectively, while North Carolina's law never included such a provision. "It is unclear how long New Hampshire's 'going armed' law preserved its forfeiture provision," he says. But even assuming that it persisted longer than the others, Wilson says, "one outlier is not enough 'to show a tradition of public carry regulation.'"
Wilson adds that the "going armed" laws "only disarmed an offender after criminal proceedings and conviction." By contrast, Section 922(g)(8) "disarms people who have merely been civilly adjudicated to be a threat to another person" or "are simply governed by a civil order that 'by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force,' whether or not there is a 'credible threat to the physical safety' of anyone else."
Wilson also notes that the "going armed" laws were aimed at "disarming those who had been adjudicated to be a threat to society generally, rather than to identified individuals." Furthermore, Section 922(g)(8) "works to disarm not only individuals who are threats to other individuals but also every party to a domestic proceeding (think: divorce court) who, with no history of violence whatever, becomes subject to a domestic restraining order that contains boilerplate language" meeting the law's criteria. While "going armed" statutes "were tied to violent or riotous conduct and threats to society," Wilson writes, Section 922(g)(8) "implicates a much wider swath of conduct, not inherently dependent on any actual violence or threat."
Wilson concedes that the surety laws more closely resemble Section 922(g)(8), since they were aimed at protecting specific complainants and required a civil proceeding rather than a criminal conviction. But those laws, he notes, allowed people to continue carrying arms in public as long as they posted a surety, and the restrictions did not apply to private possession. While "the surety laws imposed a conditional, partial restriction on the Second Amendment right," he says, Section 922(g)(8) "works an absolute deprivation of the right, not only publicly to carry, but to possess any firearm, upon entry of a sufficient protective order."
In a concurring opinion, Ho elaborates on the concern that Wilson mentions: that people can be subject to restraining orders that meet the federal criteria, and therefore deprived of the right to armed self-defense, even when they pose no real threat of violence to others. "Scholars and judges," he writes, "have expressed alarm that civil protective orders are too often misused as a tactical device in divorce proceedings—and issued without any actual threat of danger."
Such orders "can help a party in a divorce proceeding to 'secure [favorable] rulings on critical issues such as [marital and child] support, exclusion from marital residence and property disposition,'" Ho notes. They "can also be 'a powerful strategic tool in custody disputes.'" Because of those incentives, he says, protective orders are "a tempting target for abuse."
Nor can judges be counted on to prevent such abuse. "Family court judges may face
enormous pressure to grant civil protective orders—and no incentive to deny them," Ho writes. "For example, family court judges may receive mandatory training in which they're warned about 'the unfavorable publicity' that could result if they deny requests for civil protective orders." Because of that pressure, protective orders "are granted to virtually all who apply."
Ho cites a couple of examples of questionable orders. In one case, "a family court judge granted a restraining order on the ground that the husband told his wife that he did not love her and was no longer attracted to her," even though "there was no prior history of domestic violence." In another case, a judge "issued a restraining order against David Letterman on the ground that his presence on television harassed the plaintiff."
Ho adds that "the consequences of disarming citizens under § 922(g)(8) may be especially perverse considering the common practice of 'mutual' protective orders." In a domestic violence dispute, he says, "a judge may see no downside in forbidding both parties from harming one another." The result can be that "both parties are restrained even if only one is an abuser." In such cases, Section 922(g)(8) "effectively disarms victims of domestic violence," potentially putting them "in greater danger than before." The provision "effectively empowers and enables abusers by guaranteeing that their victims will be unable to fight back."
What should be done, then, with people like Rahimi, who clearly posed a threat not only to his girlfriend but also to his customers and to random members of the public? Ho thinks the answer is obvious: Such demonstrably dangerous individuals should be arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and incarcerated, which would simultaneously punish them for their crimes, keep them away from people they might harm, and prevent them from legally owning guns.
That solution may strike victims of domestic violence as naive and inadequate. Rahimi's girlfriend, after all, said he threatened to kill her if she reported his 2019 assault on her. While that did not prevent her from seeking a restraining order, victims might be too fearful to press criminal charges or unwilling to go through the emotional ordeal that would entail.
It nevertheless seems clear that the current policy sweeps too broadly by disarming people, potentially including victims of domestic abuse, even when they have no history of violence or threats. That reality certainly seems relevant in assessing the government's claim that people subject to restraining orders are ipso facto in the same category as "dangerous" individuals who historically have been deemed unfit to own guns.
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The Ruling Upholding the Gun Rights of People Subject to Restraining Orders Is Not As Crazy As You Might Think
*squints*
I didn't think it was that crazy. Now I feel like someone is denying something that no one has accused them of...
totes federal crime in SDNY.
Now I feel like someone is denying something that no one has accused them of…
Funny, because Sullum doesn't ever deny being a LINO despite being accused of it every time he writes a headline as un-libertarian as this one.
To be clear, I am positing that the suggestion that it is in any way crazy to think 'the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed' actually means that legislatures can't pass laws that infringe on the right of anyone to keep and bear arms for even the most noble of reasons is pure trolling.
"It nevertheless seems clear that the current policy sweeps too broadly by disarming people, potentially including victims of domestic abuse, even when they have no history of violence or threats."
A former brother-in-law of mine was visiting my former wife and I in CA -- we started talking guns (he was an avid hunter). He was going through a divorce at the time and mentioned that all his firearms were in storage, when I inquired, he said that in Washington State, (he was living in Seattle at the time), the judge issued a "restraining order" automatically. There was no request for one from his wife. He was under the impression that such issuance as a matter-of-course in Washington State, if not enshrined in law.
This kind of thing is, of course, nonsense.
To the best of my knowledge, the only 'automatic restraining orders' that are filed are for financial purposes and have to do with keeping one or the other party from draining a bank account.
You may be correct. I think it was probably the judge in question. If it's anything like California's system, "Family Court" in Washington (if they have the equivalent) is its own little world.
Same in New Mexico. Shocked the heck out of me when my atty sent me the papers and I saw the title, but then I saw that it is applied to both parties and was basically "don't destroy assets, cancel insurance, move kids, etc." The form looked like it had generations of photocopying...
Same thing happened to a friend of mine, also in Seattle. It's evidently pretty common, there.
This sort of blacklisting as a matter of course is what this new Texas ruling overturns. Many divorce lawyers plop that restraining order onto the pile of docs for HER to sign, she often never even reads them. I've known cases where the "ecoming X" has been forced to move, the court is not informed of his new address so he never gets served. A year later he's in Washingtin wanting t buy a handgun and gets leaned on because of the restrining order he not only never earned, but has no clue is in place.
The ISSUE in this Texas case is not whether the guy is a dirtbag and careless wiuth firearms.. he very demonstrably IS. the ISSUE is whether the restrining order, issued with no probable cause per se, can disarm the man WITHOUT a trial considerong his conduct.
Texas could,m in an heartbeat, slap some well earned charges on the guy (felony negilgence with firearms for some of his public and VREY dangerous use of them) and THEN declare him "prohibited person" in the basis of those justified and deserved charges. Under indictment he is disabled. Once convicted he remains disabled.
but the restrining order, granted his ex without any trial or examination of the FCTS of his conduct is not acceptible.
This judge sliced very fine, but well on the correct side of the intent of the Constitution.
He should remand this case back to the local courts to reexamine whether, in light of his observed and sometimes charged dangerous conduct WOULD in fact disable him. It should. But NOT the restraining order granted without examining any evidence, whether he had opportunity to respond or not.
What should be done, then, with people like Rahimi, who clearly posed a threat not only to his girlfriend but also to his customers and to random members of the public? Ho thinks the answer is obvious: Such demonstrably dangerous individuals should be arrested, prosecuted, convicted, and incarcerated, which would simultaneously punish them for their crimes, keep them away from people they might harm, and prevent them from legally owning guns.
Instead, the answer is to not prosecute, keep Rahimi out of jail (we have an overincarceration problem, I’m told) put him into a diversion program (a criminal conviction begets a cycle of poverty and inability to find gainful employment and become a contributing member of society) and then when he inevitably kills someone, we blame guns and eviscerate the 2nd amendment.
It’s kind of genius when you think about it. We don’t have a crime problem, we’ve got a gun problem.
No, we have a jogger problem.
This guy should absolutely have his own reality show.
I'm kind of amazed he did all that in Texas and nobody else lit him up for it. Also, disappointed with my neighbors in Very Eastern New Mexico.
>>after someone who had bought drugs from him "started talking 'trash'" on social media
seeds & stems or baking soda?
https://twitter.com/townhallcom/status/1641145935265779712?t=xf2oDTO-nbcBSzMj0ATEyQ&s=19
KJP won’t rule out confiscation of semi-automatic firearms.
[Video]
Well, I guess she can try. But she's probably going to have to do it by herself. Doesn't matter much to me, I lost my arsenal, er ... "collection," in a horrible boating accident. So sorry. Such a shame it was....
of course not because that is the actual goal of the regime. They want to take every gun.
When they say "no one is coming for your guns" they mean " ...yet"
I don't buy the argument that "victims might be too fearful to press criminal charges" yet still be willing to pursue a restraining order. That entails exactly the same risk and "emotional ordeal".
And this very case demonstrates it. The restraining order did not deter Rahimi from retaliating against his girlfriend. The restraining order was both unlawful and ineffective. All it did was create a false sense of security that distracted resources and attention away from the prosecution that actually might have been effective.
Not clear from this narrative is why the state cannot prosecute criminal violations unless the victims "press charges." I don't think that's true, of course, but how would the criminal know that you had reported the assault if done anonymously? And how would he kill the victim if he's locked behind bars or executed for capital repeated offenses?
What this demonstrates is a bunch of shit eating DA/SAs that dropped the ball. Seems like everyone agrees that Rahimi is a piece of shit that should be in jail where the other prisoners can fuck him in the ass with no lube till he can't walk. Instead the lawyers for the state tried to pull a fast one and ignore the real facts that would have put and kept his sorry ass in jail and nicked him on a shaky beef that any reasonable court would over turn.
Truth be told I don't really blame Rahimi cuz shitheads will be shitheads; instead I blame the third rate (if even that) lawyers that dropped the ball on this.
The mainstream backlash against slack-jawed gun nuts is going to be predictable, enjoyable, and perhaps severe.
I hope a right to possess a reasonable firearm in the home for self-defense survives the inevitable snapback, as the culture war's winners impose reason and their will on the antisocial right-wingers . . . but if it does not, the gun nuts will have themselves to blame.
See you down the road, clingers.
Slope-headed shitlibs won’t last twelve minutes if they decide to emulate their brethren: Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. Keep simping for totalitarian fascist though, Artie it’ll work out great for you.
The irony is that people like Kirkie will be among the first rounded up by the actual fascists he loves so much.
This is a free country, so culture war casualties get to whine about it as much as they like.
But you will continue to comply with the rules established by your betters, clingers.
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Greate
Hey,
In 2019, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled in the case of United States v. Castleman that a person convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence could be barred from possessing firearms under federal law. The case centered around the interpretation of the term "physical force" in the law and whether it included acts that did not involve bodily harm.
In the context of restraining orders, the ruling that upholds the gun rights of people subject to restraining orders is based on the idea that a restraining order alone does not necessarily involve physical force or the threat of physical force. Restraining orders can be issued for a variety of reasons, including stalking, harassment, and other forms of behavior that may not involve physical violence.
Therefore, some argue that prohibiting individuals subject to restraining orders from owning firearms would be a violation of their Second Amendment rights. However, opponents of this ruling argue that restraining orders are often issued in situations where there is a clear risk of violence, and allowing individuals subject to these orders to own firearms could put their victims at risk.
Ultimately, the debate over gun rights and restraining orders is complex and multifaceted, with arguments on both sides. It is up to lawmakers and the courts to balance the rights of individuals with public safety concerns and determine the appropriate policies and regulations.
The key concept here is "convicted" - whether it's a misdemeanor or a felony, once you've been convicted you can lose your second amendment rights, at least temporarily. This appeal is not about people who have been convicted - it's about people who have NOT been convicted! Restraining orders should not include losing your Bill of Rights protections - EVER!
The subject of a domestic restraining order usually has not even been charged with a crime.
A piece of paper will not stop a deranged idiot from killing you, regardless of if they have a gun or not if they are intent on really killing you.
Maybe I'm missing something, but hasn't he been charged and convicted with multiple felonies for weapons, family violence and drug offenses?
I would think he can't carry because he'd be a felon in possession of a firearm.
He's doing time for assault with a deadly weapon:
https://inmatesearch.tarrantcounty.com/Home/Details?CID=0897779
As such I cannot imagine he will be able to LEGALLY possess a firearm for the rest of his life, which given what we are told about him, will not be a long one.
Yeah because second amendment.
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Best I can figure is the headline is designed to grab the attention of retards on Twitter or something, who probably don't lean libertarian as a general rule.