Michigan Repeals Right-To-Work Law
A decade as a right-to-work state made Michigan better off.

With the swipe of a pen held by Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer, Michigan on Friday became the first state to repeal a right-to-work law in over 60 years. That's unfortunate not just for the workers who have lost their choice about whether to associate with a union, but also for the state economy. Michigan will be a less prosperous state without right-to-work, and its workers will be less free.
Right-to-work is a simple policy. At its core, right-to-work is about choice. For private sector workers, the National Labor Relations Act establishes rules for what happens when union membership is mandatory. Once a union is recognized, it speaks for all employees within the bargaining unit. An employer must bargain with that union, and only with that union, to set the terms and conditions that will govern the workplace. Employees who do not wish to associate with the union have no choice but to accept its representation and terms of the contract it negotiates. They cannot negotiate for themselves.
Right-to-work restores some voice to dissenting workers by allowing them to keep their jobs without being forced to pay a union "agency fees." Agency fees are a portion of dues, which workers must pay to a union for its representational activities. Typically, these fees are 70 percent to 80 percent of the dues payment. In states without right-to-work protections, workers who do not want the union to speak for them can be forced to pay these fees. Right-to-work gives these workers a voice by allowing them to at least not have to pay for their legally mandated silence when it comes to their compensation and working conditions.
Although right-to-work laws are simple, their impacts are broad. The economic impacts of right-to-works have been positive both in Michigan and across the country.
Studies have consistently shown that right-to-work leads to stronger economic growth. A 2002 study by the Mackinac Center for Public Policy (where I am director of labor policy) found gross state product, statewide employment, manufacturing employment, construction employment, and per-capita disposable income all grew faster in right-to-work states from 1970–2002, compared to states without right-to-work. That same study showed lower average annual unemployment, poverty rates, income inequality, and labor costs in right-to-work states. A 2007 Mackinac Center study reached similar findings, as did a later review. These findings have remained more or less consistent in the years since.
Right-to-work states also are more likely to create job opportunities. From 2020 to 2021, 867,104 people moved to a right-to-work state away from a state that wasn't. One reason for this might be that job opportunities are more prevalent in right-to-work states. Companies looking for new locations often consider right-to-work as one key factor. Right-to-work is one way that states can compete economically without having to resort to corporate welfare programs.
In October 2022, the unemployment rate in right-to-work states was 3.4 percent, compared to 3.9 percent in states without the law. Since the pandemic, right-to-work states have added 1.6 million jobs, while other states have lost 809,000 jobs.
Anyone who thinks manufacturing is important should favor right-to-work. A 2021 Harvard study found that the share of manufacturing employment in the economy was 28 percent higher in right-to-work states, compared to neighboring states without right-to-work. The study also showed that average wages and labor compensation weren't negatively affected by the passage of the law. A similar study conducted by the Mackinac Center in 2022 shows similar results.
Michigan's economic conditions in the 10 years before right-to-work and the 10 years that followed offer an excellent case study on the positive impact of right-to-work. According to the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics, in the 10 years before right-to-work, Michigan's unemployment rate averaged 8.5 percent. In the following decade, it was 6 percent. Michigan's labor force lost 350,657 people from 2002–12, but it gained 90,648 people from 2012–2020. Inflation-adjusted income growth went from 0.06 percent to 21.9 percent.
In nearly every measurable way, Michigan has been better off.
Right-to-work gives workers greater choice about how to manage their lives and offers significant economic benefits for the state they call home. The 60,000 private sector workers in Michigan who have opted out of union membership are not the only ones who will be hurt by the repeal of right-to-work. Union members are also likely to find they are worse off.
The reasons for this lie in simple market forces. In a right-to-work state, a union's financial stability requires it to please its members. If the union fails to deliver services that justify the price of dues, workers may opt out, denying the union revenue. This incentive is gone once right-to-work is repealed. A union is guaranteed that nonmembers will pay agency fees that are the vast majority of union dues. Repealing right-to-work gives unions a guaranteed income stream, which removes the incentive for them to provide the best services possible to the employees they represent. Repealing right-to-work, then, harms both those who would voluntarily pay the union and those who would not.
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It only took Reason a week to touch on it. Thought it might be too local for them.
I'm sure sarc will be by to throw shit or tell usbwhy Republicans are just as bad. Then again he is even advocating raising taxes now.
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Yep. That drunken, lying piece of shit is the most awesomest guy in the world, and we’re all idiots. Or so that raging pile of Otis Campbell would have us believe.
"A decade as a right-to-work state made Michigan better off."
So Michigan democrats said, "Look how much economic damage Biden has caused in just two years! Surely, we can do better than that in our one small state!" And thus right-to-work laws were repealed and employees and taxpayers will soon be worse off than before. Just as it should be!
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They've done it before. In 2007, a year before the Great Recession, Debbie Stabenow managed to put Michigan into a one-state recession. She was replaced as governor by a one-term Republican, but landed in the Senate, where she'll presumably be reelected until she dies or chooses to retire.
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Frau Whitmer strikes again!
I'd bet almost anything the cunt ends up running for president.
Sleepy Joe and his enablers are desperately trying to put off the official announcement that he's a one-and-done for as long as possible, but it's inevitable.
So glad that stupid bitch is not my governor.
I live in Michigan....she's still NOT MY governor!
Gotta keep burnishing that anti-freedom resume to compete with Newsom. The only real question is which one will get Abrams as the prize VP pick?
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That would be Vrau Vhitmer, as in the TV show "V".
Just don't scratch her skin.
"In nearly every measurable way, Michigan has been better off."
But not in the critical union donations to democrats measure!
^The only metric that actually matters^
Michigan will be a less prosperous state without right-to-work, and its workers will be less free.
Neither of which was at all relevant to Governor Whitmer or the State legislature. All that mattered was getting more money in union coffers, which will lead to more money in DNC coffers.
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The economic impact should be irrelevant to everyone. This is a matter of individual freedom. If mandating union shops had a net positive economic impact we should still be against it.
Of course, were it not for The National Labor Relations Act, which mandates employers to accept unions if a majority of employees vote for unions, there would be no need for a Right-To-Work law in the first place.
That's what it's all about. Another attempt to ensure the unions/liberals control Michigan for the next century.
Yeah, we're screwed. It's almost, but not quite, inevitable. That "gerrymandering" law they got passed a couple years ago is just another weapon The Left has used to "fortify" elections here in Michigan. They got their Dem guv and Legislature now. Will they ever lose them?
Once you beat
the left you have to remain vigilant. They recur like vermin and constant management of the scum is required or they find a way to seep through the cracks and redo the damage you thought you had covered.
In other circles this is known as "mowing the grass".
It's not what Michigan did, it's what the national GOP did.
The 'wins' of the 2010 wave - Walker in WI, Snyder in MI, and so on - could only hold if the GOP 'base' remained relatively wealthy, educated suburbanites...
The decision to throw that away in 2016 = Democrats can start undoing the wins of the previous era.
Oh. All those illegal election changes in 2020 didn't happen. The ones dems rushed to try and legalize for 2022. Thanks for the heads up.
He’s got to get that revised history in there.
"The decision to throw that away in 2016..."
The whining of TDS-addled piles of shit it tiresome.
OK, asshole, please, it detail who was a better POTUS in the last hundred years than that guy who posted nasty tweets.
Eat shit and die; make the word a better place.
I’m fond of Calvin Coolidge , even though I think his support of immigration restrictions very dodgy, and that he could have stood up to the Prohibitionists.
You get what you vote for. The unions hate dissent from their collectivist mindset by individual workers. The Democrats are owned lock, stock and barrel by union interests. Vote for Democrats and you vote for collectivism.
Part of this can also be explained by the Democrats whinging about gerrymandering resulting in districting for the legislature being done by an allegedly nonpartisan committee, which does its own sort of gerrymandering to distribute Democrat voters out of their enclaves.
Whitmer, like Biden, has been very open about being a union whore.
But unless Michigan builds a wall, workers and companies will continue to flee, and ruin the Democrat vision of a labor paradise.
"But unless Michigan builds a wall, workers and companies will continue to flee..."
The fleeing part may be difficult, considering the state of Michigan roads. (Contrary to big gRetch's statements on the matter.)
As opposed to the roads in union friendly Washington, Minnesota etc, which are just as shitty if not worse and costs far more to fix because of forced unionization.
Gee, go figure a northern, central cold humid environment has bad roads, who would have thought that four seasons with wet weather would be hard on roads? Only anyone with a passing familiarity with science and engineering.
I don't understand your reply. Michigan's roads suck and Whitmer's response is "nuh-uh."
Is that supposed to convey a logical thought?
Its supposed to convey that Whitmer isn't doing a very good job and is lying about her progress.
Twhitmer was elected on her promise to "fix the roads". She has made no more progress than her Republican predecessor (term-limited) on them. Now, there is a difference in what a Michigander calls a "bad road", and say, an Illinoisan calls a "bad road". To be frank, Michiganders are very finicky and picky when it comes to the roads (native car culture and all) compared to others across the US. A Michigander will call a road with filled potholes "bad" while an Illinoisan will call it "good".
I just want everyone to know that I'm against Whitmer, cause it feels like you people think I'm defending her.
Hey! Wha'd'you mean... "You people?"
No. The roads here in MI legitimately suck. And suck hard.
Is Michigan still chopping their asphalt roads into gravel because they can't afford to repave them? They were doing that when I visited 20 years ago.
Most of the money for highway and road repair is spent in the southern part of the state, from Detroit to Lansing , along I-94 while the rest of us in the northern counties are lucky to even have the roads plowed.
The condition of the roads and streets up around here are abominable and getting worse. Only when the road surface is nearly undriveable does anything get repaired.
Most of the money for highway and road repair is spent in the southern part of the state, from Detroit to Lansing , along I-94 while the rest of us in the northern counties are lucky to even have the roads plowed.
I wish. Washtenaw county's roads are the absolute worst in the state. For the county which includes Ann Arbor and U of M, it's bonkers.
We have a lot of bad roads up here in Antrim county.
oh wow
Actually, no. The unions promise the Democrats money and volunteers. The Democrats protect the unions from investigations and prosecutions.
More 'winning' by the Trumptards...
Keep it up and everything the right gained from 2010-2016 will be washed away....
“More ‘winning’ by the Trumptards…”
More whining by TDS-addled piles of shit. Fuck off and die, asshole; make the world a better place.
The right gained via Obama?
Was it your intention to put your vapid faggotry on display here? If so, your commentary has been a spectacular success. In as far as an attempt to convey any knowledge, or keen analysis, you have failed miserably.
Probably best that you just fuck off now.
Damn republicans.
Heil Whitmer!
Let’s see. Who was it that was accusing unReason of ignoring this story a few days ago…
So they were ignoring it until now is what you're saying.
Glad you agree with the other poster.
They were late, which is the same thing as ignoring it. And they didn't praise Republicans which is the same as praising Democrats. So this is just more anti-Republican drivel.
And there it is. At least your retarded Schlick is consistent.
They got scooped by a random commenter on their own boards, and they are supposedly journalists. You don’t have to white knight for them.
Why are you shitting on them for covering what you wanted them to cover? You shit on them if they do and you shit on them if they don't. Why is it a bad thing when people come around to your point of view? Shouldn't you be glad? Instead you're like fuck you you don't get any credit. Jesus H Christ you're an asshole.
I didn’t make a value judgement on their mentioning this story or not anytime before this article. Pointing out facts is not “shitting on them”. That’s some victim mentality bullshit.
Bull spit. You guys whine when they don’t report on what you feel is important, and then explain why.
The only victim mentality I see is the “We said it and you didn’t write about it when we wanted you to! You failed us!” from jokers like yourself.
Which right-wing source funds anti-union, freeloader-loving mouthpiece Stephen Delie?
Fuck off and die, asshole bigot.
I will piss on the grave of your shitty right-wing preferences, clinger.
Then have a nice beer, and piss on it again.
Thank goodness for the culture war!
And which pro-fascist left-wing idiots fund you, Artie? How much do they expect for their 50 cents?
Nope, I'll be shitting on yours, you pathetic excuse for humanity.
Fuck off and die, asshole bigot.
No you won’t. You will find yourself face down in a landfill long before any of us are dead. Along with so many of your fellow travelers.
You’re not fooling anyone, Reverend; all the pissing you do is limited to your pants.
Carry On, Klinger! And make sure the laundry service for your flourishing cape is union!
RE: Right-to-work states have done better economically than union shop states. Correlation does not equal causation. But here's a suggestion: I will wholeheartedly support right-to-work laws when we also have "right-to-have-work" laws.
“…I will wholeheartedly support right-to-work laws when we also have “right-to-have-work” laws.”
Care to render your slogan in English rather than Bumper Sticker?
Right to have work? Which state bans people from working? Oh, you mean the state will create or force employers to hire anyone, rather they are needed, can be afforded or are even qualified. Hmmm. I think there's a name for a system like that, and it's failed miserably to compete economically and always devolves to tyranny.
One of the oldest truths known is that true liberty/freedom requires the ability to own property and the right to defend yourself. These were the marks of free men as opposed to slaves and serfs from the time of Ur to the end of the 19th century. Owning property meant that you owned it and could do what you wanted without the rulers telling you what you could do with it. This included the right to produce on your own land, hire workers, make a profit etc. It also entailed the right to fail. This is often overlooked, but failure is necessary for the health of the individual and the health of a free society. Some of our greatest achievements came about because of failures. Failure is also a major incentive to succeed. Without it, productivity crashes, innovation crashes, society stagnates and becomes violent. The idea of a guaranteed job regardless of work ethics, motivation, qualifications etc, is depriving people of the right to fail.
Luckily, our forefathers understood these basic rights. The third, fourth, fifth and sixth amendments ultimately come down to the right to own private property (especially when you understand their ties to the Magna Carta and why these were written into the Magna Carta, hint, King John didn't respect landowners or merchants rights). The second amendment is both the right to defend yourself, and the right to own property (arms owned by the individual, not owned by the state).
Why hasn't the American military won a war in 75 years? It has had plenty of failure, forcing Americans to settle for a series of vague draws against ragtag irregulars (despite enormous taxpayer-provided resource advantages), yet still can not succeed.
We need to find a way to attract a better class of person to military service (and law enforcement).
Carry on, soldiermedic. Try not to dwell on your failures in uniform.
What major war have they had to fight in 75 years, Artie? Or are you just being a retard again, as usual?
Artie is a lying vindictive cunt, who hates people who can actually do things.
Artie can do things, they mostly just involve choking on horse cock or being sodomized by Great Danes.
"...Or are you just being a retard again, as usual?"
Why bother asking; when is the asshole bigot otherwise?
We beat Grenada!
Fuck off and die, asshole bigot.
Your little dick energy suggests a life devoid of winning, Reverend. Out of curiosity, do you think your inability to understand what it is to be a man motivated you to attack soldiermedic?
Why do liars always start off by stating a false premise phrased in the form of a question? Do you still beat your mother?
He definitely still takes it up the ass from his uncle.
And the Second guarantees your right to possess the means by which to defend yourself - both from petty thieves and political professional thieves.
Maybe so but if you fail to obey any of the thousands of zoning laws or fail to pay your protection money, see what happens to your property.
We are not as free as we believe. If those in power( the left) have their way, we will be even less free.
"...Oh, you mean the state will create or force employers to hire anyone, rather they are needed, can be afforded or are even qualified..."
I asked since it had the distinct stench of lefty bullshit, as policy written in Bumper Sticker often does.
It's been a demand of some on the left since at least occupy Wall street. Everyone should have a job if they want to work (but no one should be forced to work, so we also need UBI). It's also part of the push to label things like work ethics, hard work, qualifications as white privilege and supremacy. Everyone does have a right to have a job, the difference is when people say it like he did he doesn't mean anyone can apply for a job and work to get it, but that they should get hired simply because they applied. And it's the governments job to insure they can get a job regardless of any disqualifying aspects. Fuck, even Marx wouldn't have been on board with that. And no communist or socialist country has ever actually been able to achieve universal employment, because surprise surprise some people are deadwood (and communists tended to be very creative about dealing with dead wood).
Hadn't heard that particular whine before, but your explanation makes it clear; the assholes pitching that are not proposing jobs; they're proposing taxpayer-supported income for those who might, perhaps, show up at 8AM.
It is clear to me that there are those who, for various reasons (sometimes physical, often mental) cannot support themselves.
We (wife and I) are not alone in donating to charities which provide support to those in such need, but we have also learned (the hard way) to vet the charities carefully.
In the corporate world, there is nothing like the amount of corruption in within the 'do good' charities.
Let me guess: a Reason "libertarian," right?
Hey, Daddyhill!
Too embarrassed to answer questions? Too stupid?
"That's unfortunate not just for the workers who have lost their choice about whether to associate with a union"
Which comes to a grand total of zero workers.
Don't want to associate with a union? Don't accept a job that has an exclusivity agreement with a union.
"Problem" solved.
Or kill all the union scum.
I am working at a job, the majority decide to unionize, I don't want to join, so your solution is I lose my job? What happened to freedom of association? A union is an association, and part of the freedom of association is the right to not associate too. I know those pesky liberties get in the way of the workers Utopia that unions have never quite achieved, even in states that coddle to them. And don't say 40 hour work week or 8 hour days, because it wasn't unions that created those but capitalists looking to make extra profit by improving efficiency (BTW I hate 8 hour shifts and am glad to be back to a job I can work 12 hour shifts because I can work three days and have four off or work four and get 8 hours overtime and still have three days off).
The 1947 federal Taft–Hartley Act governing private sector employment prohibits the "closed shop" in which employees are required to be members of a union as a condition of employment.
Apparently all the Right-to-Work law does is stops the union from charging non-union workers.
Exclusivity agreements should not exist. Joining a union or not should be up the worker after gaining employment. I have been in 2 unions. One of them had the choice to join the union or not as it should be. I joined but gained nothing from it. I have been in 2 unions and both were grifting operations.
Or sue over the violation of the Freedom of Assembly. The Freedom of Assembly includes, logically, a Freedom to Not Have to Assemble at all.
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Fuck off, slaver.
There's only 1-Choice Democrats support; and that's abortion. And that will probably end just as soon as the right supports their own Roe v Wade ruling again.
I figured that would be a well known fact by now. Democrats HATE Individual Choice everywhere. They're all about You don't own You; [WE] own you (with Gov-Guns).
The lefts support for abortions I think is largely due to the bread and circus model of governing. Have all the sex you want, and don't worry about consequences, because the Caesar is here to protect you and provide for you as long as you do what he wants/demands.
There's also the whole eugenics component, which progressives have never exactly given up. Listen to many of their arguments for abortion. Oh kids born with deformities, kids are expensive, they take time and resources away from being productive, it's a good thing minorities have access to abortions and get them more than whites, because minorities are poor and then reproducing keeps them locked into poverty and thus being opposed to abortion is white supremacy. Like gun control, the history of abortion advocacy has a very shady past and true disparate impact the left largely wants you to ignore. While pretending they're being altruistic.
If it was the right that defended abortions, given the percentage of minorities that get abortions the left would be screaming bloody murder about the disparate impact abortions have in minority communities and stating abortion was a tool of white supremacy with deep roots in eugenics and racists policies.
Until the 1980s, there were more democrats who were against abortion for this very reason, including Jesse Jackson. I see this changing back again though once they realize that there aren’t enough people left to tax, or young and foolish democrat voters.
Abortion is one part of the long history of the progressive support for eugenics.
Sterilizing undesirables is a second component, hence the strong support for "transitioning children".
Mandating these procedures has fallen out of favor. But Democrats have discovered that when people undergo them voluntarily, they become psychologically so damaged that they become lifelong supporters of the progressive movement.
Once someone voluntarily chops off their own dick after listening to the promises of progressives, they experience cognitive dissonance when confronted with evidence that contradicts their beliefs or suggests that their cult's teachings or practices are harmful.
Historically, leftists also become anti-abortion when they are in power and need young people as canon fodder or as workers in the worker's paradise.
Right now, abortion is simply an issue the radical left can use to generate division, anger, and fear.
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How much did the union take out for dues?
Wow, a non-moronic, actually libertarian post from Reason! First one this month, I think. (This year?)
The part that's moronic about this article is that it largely misses Whitmer's motivations for doing this, and how it fits into a broader ideological framework of the new left. That is, it misses that Democrats are motivated neither by making states more prosperous, nor by making workers more free.
There main motivation is to encourage anyone who might not vote for them to move away leaving the wealthy and the parasite class who always vote for them.
Whitmer: "Mission accomplished."
Don't give her more ideas by listing other policies that would make Michigan less prosperous and its workers less free.
Things are bad enough up north, having to depend almost solely on tourism anymore. Hardly any manufacturing.
All labor unions are parasites, including political labor unions. Under the very BEST circumstances, they add zero value to any delivered good or service; add cost; and work at purposes contrary to the host business and consumers. History is astonishingly lacking in examples of the "very best circumstances."
If there are any laborers reading, consider math into your decision to work union. Are the union dues transparent? How much EXACTLY are the union dues? What is your disposable income after taxes and dues? What is your promised pension exactly—especially after reading what is going on in France? Are promises for your future Utopia better than getting the cash up front? If the dues are X percent of a paycheck what would a historic S&P 500 index payout if you had invested in a 401k? Why do you think someone will risk their money to invest in a union shop? What happens when the private company goes under? What do union bosses and bureaucracy bring to the table? Why did Detroit go bankrupt?
My Mother grew up in an Italian mob run neighborhood in Philly. The union bosses or “Mob” bosses would forcibly take dues or shakedown local merchants. Unions are just a bigger Mob. And btw, all that great Italian food moved to suburbs and rural areas of south NJ to escape the mob.
Promises for the future are every bit as meaningful as words uttered by politicians. Why even be forced to ask the question of yourself? Just say no to parasites.
All that effort to get the Mob out of the unions, when it turns out unions are the Mob!
It got to the point where you couldn't tell one from the other.
Then they decided Hoffa had to go.
The Teamsters had the reputation for being the worst.
It’s an unholy trinity. Unions-Democrats-Hedge funds grifting fees on pensions, and endowments.
In my grandparents day, items fell off inventories or the back of trucks, thus teamsters. These days it’s the promise of a future Utopia = pension management fees.
I have lost track of the California Free range law and where it was in the courts but if it gets upheld then states like mine should mandate all products sold here must come from workers who have a right to work without being forced to join a union.
Real socialism or worker’s socialism has never been tried, we’re back to this again:
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2023/03/stalin-will-never-be-redeemable
Of course it’s been tried. Scams are never about what was promised by the scammers. The only real choices between political outlooks are a) everyone has equal individual rights and government’s only real purpose is to act to defend them (Liberty), or b) nobody has any rights save those government deems to give them and people are subject to whatever abuses and indignities government decides to impose on them (totalitarianism – no matter what name it happens to be masquerading under). Everything isle is just lipstick on the same old pig.
Again, Bullwinkle?
At one time I opposed Right-to-Work, following the Murray Rothbard line, Muh Private Associations! Eventually I realized that's silly for the same reason as that Twitter censorship is government censorship through an intermediary. No legitimate agent wants the "freedom" that the repeal of Right-to-Work represents, especially when you realize the NLRA forbids wildcatting.
End Right-To-Work and NLRA FTW.
But that's an unobtainable win. There's hardly any political support for repealing the NLRA. However, as amended by Taft-Hartley, it allows for state Right-to-Work laws, which many states have adopted. That's still the cutting edge of reform all this time later, and Michigan shows it can be rolled back, so that's where we need to concentrate.
Do you know this for sure about the NLRB or like Dopey, did Conservatives and Libertarians never try? Con't have mandatory union membership if companies aren't mandated to have unions.
I always thought the right to assembly argument against right to work was stupid, because it didn't ban unions of forming them, it just made joining not compulsory, and freedom of assembly also imply freedom not to assemble or associate. It's a stupid argument made by people who disingenuously implied right to work banned unions.
Tony will be along shortly to re-educate you that not giving is, in fact, taking.
Tony's still on here? I must have muted him long ago and forgot about his liberal lunacy.
During the last election I considered what that biatch did to Michigan during the phony plandemic. I voted for her opponent. At least the sheriff of our county vowed he would not enforce any of Witchmer's orders.
As for those who voted to re-elect this bad excuse for a governor, I hope you're happy with your selection. If not, too bad.
You have no right to complain. After all you voted for her, you elected her and therefore you are responsible for what she has done. Therefore, you have no right to complain while I, who did not vote for that miserable creature, have every right to complain about the mess you caused, that I had nothing to do with.
Meanwhile, more companies will leave Michigan for state with Right to Work laws on the books.
Right to work, or not,
Workers united, can't be bought,
Solidarity sought.
Right to work, free choice,
No force or fraud, just consent,
Individual voice.
©ChatGPT
Discuss
I call it the cheapskate law. If you don't want to pay union dues, then don't apply to union jobs. But a lot of people want the benefits of the Union without paying for them. Now I do have empathy if a workplace is bought and the Union implemented on those already employed. I had that happen to me once. Actually in my 40+ years or working about half was union and half non-union. While the Union never did anything specifically for me, I also realized I was paid more on my non-Union jobs because in my industry they had to compete with Union companies to get and keep good talent. (electrical generation industry). Where I don find Unions unacceptable is public employees because they vote for those that promise them the most. But they are finding out as their pension fail and are cut or going broke and ending, you can't believe a politicians word. Politicians promised but never funded their retirements.
A “liberty lover” who thinks being required to join a union = ‘liberty’?
You need a new handle or enough intelligence to understand the term “hypocrite”.
Is this "liberty" of which you write absolute? Totalized? Are no rules necessary to turn "liberty" into freedom? Freedom is a creature of the law; liberty is readily available in the savage world; even animals have liberty. So. Where does freedom enter the picture?
If owner/labor conflicts are contests of liberty, the owners always "win" the contest--because they have more "liberty" than those they employ. Freedom doesn't even enter the picture.
"Is this “liberty” of which you write absolute? Totalized? Are no rules necessary to turn “liberty” into freedom? Freedom is a creature of the law; liberty is readily available in the savage world; even animals have liberty. So. Where does freedom enter the picture?..."
Why do you argue distinctions without differences?
I have a similar issue with public sector unions. But there, not so much because they vote in their self-interest (everyone does that and always will - including political parties) but because it limits the self-governance rights of everyone else. Best example imo is education.
Schools were organized from individual school boards into county-level districts during the 1940's and 1950's and early 1960's for mostly boomer/construction/suburb/financing reasons (pre-computer). Except Jim Crow states which had always been state/county level in order to force individual schools into complying with the costs of 'separate'. After consolidation into districts - contract negotiation now takes place way outside the individual school. Which has moved ALL decision making up to a higher level of government. Which prevents reform of (or even thinking about) education at any classroom/school level - from financing to curriculum to facilities.
That said - the older I get the more I realize that manipulating labor markets is a huge source of unearned money/power. Almost entirely from the top directed against the bottom - not ever the reverse. And that really is the purpose of right-to-work laws.
“If you don’t want to pay union dues, then don’t apply to union jobs.”
How do jobs belong to the union? There are no such thing as “union” jobs. The jobs are offered by the employer. Unions are institutions in a symbiotic relationships with corporations which are, at best, commensal to parasitic. Unionism is an ideological mindset, and closed shops exclude anyone who does not submit to the ideology.
Actually jobs are collectively negotiated between the union and an employer. The specific terms of that contract can easily include provisions related to recruiting, hiring, job duties, performance appraisal, management, termination, etc - where it is the union that 'owns' that and is responsible for that.
That's the purpose of right-to-work laws. To undermine and then eliminate the scope of those negotiations so that unions cease to be able to act on behalf of employees (prospective or current or past).
Does Chat GPT
Use 5-7-5 format?
Or is it free form?
🙂
wrong place
If two sides are in opposition, but one has much more economic power to coerce than the other, which one prevails?
One of the most important factors defining rights is the idea that no man should treat other individuals as means to an end, but only as ends in themselves.
When one is employed, one is required to doff one's rights at the door to the job. The right to free speech in public is quashed, the right to assemble in dissent of "the boss" or "ownership" is condemned, and the right to speak to the press and to maintain one's identity in his or her name is disallowed.
But here we have people urging us that those who are "coerced" into joining a union are deprived of their freedom of choice. Usually, this "choice" involves dues--or more plainly $$$.
Meanwhile on the "opposition", owners and managers all have the right to speak freely in public (the workspace) in dissent of the employees, have the right to assemble into "collectives" in order to combine their efforts in a united strategy, and the right to measure out how much in wages or salaries they desire to pay.
Looks to me like the scale is weighted in favor of owners. Hence, where is the balance, the proverbial scale of justice in the workplace? The unions are not "socialistic". This idea of "choice" is a dodge.
This is imo where the Germanic notion of 'ordoliberalism' came into play as opposed to the notion of laissez-faire. Ordoliberalism is intended to create the conditions of truly free/competitive markets (or what you are calling 'balance'). Laissez-faire doesn't create free market conditions because it merely assumes sustainable economic power out of existence.
Sometimes that Germanic notion of ordoliberalism works well (see Ludwig Erhard and both the Wirtschaftswunder and the soziale Marktwirtschaft). Other times it seems to require a German obsession with following rules and everyone inspecting everyone else's poo on the poo shelf in their toilet.
Nice comment, but I'm not so certain that owner/labor antagonism or cooperation comes down to "a competitive market" type of situation. Of course, we indeed could make that assumption--thus interpreting that relation as supply/demand:
The owners demand, labor supplies to meet that demand; labor demands recompense for meeting the owner's demand, an exchange we call wages and salaries.
What happens if that "market" becomes subject to disequilibrium? Isn't that an important principle that serves as a guidepost that helps economic actors determine whether a market in supply and demand is healthy or dysfunctional?
What if labor as a group informs the owner's demands are unfair in that the owner is not supplying an entire group with sufficient payment?
I mean, that could happen to me: I could go to the grocery store, pick out items and then tell the store that I am paying X, and that if the store insists I pay Y instead, that transaction never meets the necessary equilibrium necessary for that transaction to be healthy.
My option? Fork it out or leave the store empty-handed. I can't dicker with a cashier. The cashier is only a representation of an owner's demands.
That fact of life throws off many notions of economic exchange in terms of microeconomics. No negotiation? No healthy exchange: the rules have been violated.
How, then, do we restore health to the owner/labor supply/demand gradient? Do we just let it all go feral? Apply our dependence on a stochastic ordering principle (a rule) in an "It's all good" way?
These are serious questions we should ask ourselves: who governs the economic exchanges? No one? It's the Wild West because the Wild West is "perfect"?
Germany's ordoliberalism likely was necessary postwar. Coordinated effort along many lines in many theaters of activity had to be applied as a matter of the physical necessities of millions of individuals.
Let me add something to my reply to you, Jfree:
I could go on and on in critiquing the use of government agency to help bring order from what really has shown in the past to be chaotic in terms of unrestrained economic competition, unrestrained behavior, and activity. . .
. . . by pointing out all the calculation errors. We could split hairs with that tool all day long and still get nowhere.
This seems to be a persistent problem in the demand we simply allow "the market" to govern itself. What happens if "the market" is not broad enough, comprehensive enough, and mainly, not built to fit into expectations of even a stochastic order?
The suggestion there is order in group instinct by automatic default seems to go awry when applied in actual circumstances. Instinct is a natural ordering principle, but suggesting it is anywhere even quantifiably equivalent to reason seems awfully odd to me.
"...I could go on and on in critiquing the use of government agency to help bring order from what really has shown in the past to be chaotic in terms of unrestrained economic competition, unrestrained behavior, and activity. . ."
I'm sure you could but you'd still be full of it.
The objective of ordoliberalism is to create a social market economy, not a free market economy. Under ordoliberalism, state intervention in the economy is supposed to promote social justice, reduce economic inequality, and promote economic growth. The first two of these are anti-free market, and Germany has been a complete failure at producing fast economic growth.
Ordoliberalism has never worked well. West Germany briefly grew rapidly post-WWII not because of ordoliberalism but because of post-WWII economic conditions. As soon as Germany's economy normalized, it became stagnant. Since the 1970's, German annual growth rates have been about half that of the US. And Germans are much worse off economically than Americans.
The objective of ordoliberalism is to create a social market economy, not a free market economy.
No. The objective is to create conditions where competition itself is not eliminated in the process of either creating cartels and where barriers to entry/exit (the free of free market) are not erected/maintained by individuals in the market.
IOW - individual producers/consumers have all the power to make production/consumption decisions. But they do not have the power to make meta decisions about the structure of the market - to tilt the playing field itself.
The reason that in Europe the free market under ordoliberalism tends to lead to social welfare is because the free market produces wealth. And with that wealth, a significant portion of 'labor' - esp people who 'work to live' instead of 'living to work' - want to CHOOSE to individually withdraw from the labor force temporarily in order to, for example, take a vacation with their families.
In a laissez-faire system, that choice can not happen because the economic power will ALWAYS rest with those at the top who get their jollies by working endlessly. They become managers/etc and can then tilt the playing field so that those at the bottom never have any of the wealth needed for them to make the choice to have a vacation (to withdraw their labor from the market).
“The unions are not “socialistic”.” Kinda stumped me with that statement, especially after your prose describing Union activities.
Unions always protect the weakest member at the expense of the strongest. Meritocracy can’t exist in a Union, or at least I’ve not heard of it over the 90years of American unions.
Socialism is an attempt to "democratize" the workspace through ownership of the means of production. Interestingly, socialism became a big fad in the mid-19th Century during the Romantic era's infatuation with democracy and the individual.
If socialism bids to retain ownership of all the means of production via state socialism, why would any union anywhere even dare to suggest the economy remain the purview of private ownership?
The Wilson administration legalized independent unionization in order to allow labor a choice not to join powerful communist labor unions. What happens if a laborer has no other options beyond a) allowing himself to be exploited by self-interested unfairness, or b) joining a union determined to destroy capitalism?
Those don't look like happy options to me.
Socialism does not mean "all collective action". Every market capitalist enterprise employs collective action on any day that ends with Y. Would it be extreme to demand we only see the economic order in terms of the self-owning individual?
There's nothing wrong with self-ownership. But if the concept (and it is a concept, a representation) is sent to an absolute extreme, it no longer serves much of anything or anyone with any accuracy.
In the economic theater, self-ownership is also oftentimes an overgeneralization: What is being owned when a guy goes to work? His "Self"? Or his labor? He's not selling the entirety of who he is to an owner; he's selling his labor. The rest of his concerns are left to him. In fact, one particularly persnickety way of looking at "use" in terms of "using labor" is that the employer is only interested in the employee's life insofar as that life can be used by said employer. Beyond that, the employer is said to be unconcerned. Beyond that, the same is true for a consumer: the consumer's life is of no interest to the seller; only his choice to exchange his money for a product or service is of any concern to the seller.
That way, so much of human action is lopped off. Maybe this is where the concept of collective bargaining can help. Even so, that's no more perfect than "the market" is perfect. Both are entirely fallible and frail at rock bottom.
"Socialism is an attempt to “democratize” the workspace through ownership of the means of production." Exactly right - the workers are the means of production.
"Workers"? Or "worker"? Also, means of production at a factory are the equipment, the building, the accounting department, the secretaries, management, the raw materials, the actual products in process, and, most importantly: the owners.
Yes, in a socialist business arrangement: these would all be owned, not necessarily by the state, but by all involved.
In state socialism: the state, a.k.a. the government, would own the means of production. But for state socialism to work at all, ALL the means of production have to be under state ownership. Not control. State control of activities, behaviors, and other aspects of business, competition, etc, is NOT socialism.
Does the federal government "control" the economy? All of it? In a total or absolute way?
Pray tell it isn't so in regard to the nice Chinese restaurant I like to visit at times.
Between 15 and 30 million market capitalist enterprises exist in the US right now. None of them are owned by the government. Nor are they owned by the workers. There are, however, a few socialist businesses out there. One common example involves the neighborhood vegetable garden: all own the real estate, all work the garden, and all take a portion of the vegetable production. No one is employed, but all are self-employed.
Scary, eh?
As for "democratization" of the workspace, the Bolsheviks actually tried that. They believed only unified consensus could be perfectly socialistic--but those decisionmaking processes were so timely, wasteful and inefficient that production apparatchiks opted for "representational" ownership: Party members "represented" the workers. That fell flat on its face, and instead of true socialism, or even a dictatorship of the proletariat, the USSR transformed into "a dictatorship of the Party".
Kind of like what the GOP wants here in the US. . .
“All own the real estate” Fucking Kulaks
Yep. Kulaks are the ones who resisted the Leninist collectivization of all private property, something that led to civil war. Then later, the Stalinist attempt to collectivize already socialist peasant communes resulted in the deaths of between three and 15 million by starvation. Dumb apparatchiks. The peasant communes had been essentially socialist for millennia. But apparatchiks wanted to nationalize them, take ownership of them. The apparatchiks likely had never even been to the Ukrainian and Russian countryside, bunch of carpetbaggers.
Here in the US, if there is an analogue to that it's the almost entirely successful attempts by large agribusiness corporations to buy all the individually owned farms into huge "collectives" that employ their former owners. No wonder rural locals in the US Midwest are suspicious of "Washington" and "The Northeast coasters". Bunch of stupid capitalist apparatchiks! LOL
Your hero ‘Bernie’ was kicked out of a collectivist hippie commune because he was too lazy to work the fields. Bernie is a fucking Kulak
How is Sanders my hero? I like some of his ideas. Do you believe that about me because I happen to know about socialism and what it is--instead of buying into the hogwash that if the federal government so much as lifts a finger to coordinate or moderate economic activity it's suddenly full-blown Maoism?
Pardon me. Sometimes I entertain even me.
"...That fell flat on its face, and instead of true socialism, or even a dictatorship of the proletariat, the USSR transformed into “a dictatorship of the Party”..."
This "true socialsim" - where is it to be found?
"Kind of like what the GOP wants here in the US. . ."
You misspelled "Democrat"
Oh I get it Sevo. Because some TV lickspittles call the Dems and Progressives "socialists", it's true, right? (Hint: the pro-Nazi cabal in the Thirties and Forties tried the same dumb trick; didn't work then, and doesn't work now. And the pro-Nazi cabal also invented the term "New World Order" in the Thirties. And also it was all about deregulation because that way it would reduce the power of the government--as well as the political agency of all citizens).
Many Democrats call themselves "democratic socialists". Much of the Democratic political program is social democratic in nature. In addition, the Democratic Party is part of the international "Progressive Alliance", and alliance of "social democratic" parties. Yes, US Democrats are social democrats.
Nazis were socialists. As were the Italian fascists. Many Democrats were sympathetic to, and lauded, European fascism before WWII.
Of course, the Nazis also persecuted German socialists and communists, but that's not because they were fundamentally different ideologies, but because they were small variations of the same ideology, in competition with one another.
Well, yes, and the resulting economy has two main features: (1) it is highly inefficient to the point of causing mass starvation, and (2) as a worker, you have no control over your life, your work, or anything else; you can't even walk away from your job.
Yes, that is socialism too. It comes in various forms: "national socialism" aka fascism (Germany), "democratic socialism" (US), Chinese-style socialism (China). It works slightly better than pre-WWII socialism, but not a whole lot.
Also, isn't "meritocracy" a form of status as an assessment tool?
I thought democracy is about equality, not status.
You don't "check any rights at the door". You voluntarily agree with your employer on conditions of employment. If you don't like the deal, don't sign it.
You can enter your own terms into the agreement. I have done so with some employers, and so do many others.
There is no "scale" here. If you don't like how a company is run, don't work for them. I've quit my job because I disagreed with the company.
Indeed, unions are not "socialistic" in the sense that they don't exist in a socialist state; in a socialist state, your employer completely dictates to you how you work and how you live, with absolutely no choice or power on your part.
In free market economies, unions are a voluntary cartel among workers in an industry. They are generally not stable.
In the US and Europe, "unions" are corrupt government-linked institutions that are supported by socialists in order to destroy free markets. They do not represent the interests of the workers, any more than "LGBT organizations" represent the interests of gays and lesbians, or "BLM" represents the interests of black people.
In the US, private sector union membership is about 7% of the total workforce because most people just don't want to be in one, because they recognize that unions don't represent their interests.
Yes, finally, somebody who gets it.
I think that unions did plenty of good things in 1900ish, but that unions do very little good things today. But whether unions are a good thing or bad thing is irrelevant to Libertarianism. If you don’t want to join a union, then don’t join a union. (Or don’t get a job that requires you to join a union.) It’s turned out that the Free Market has spoken, and since most employees don’t like today’s unions, union membership has declined more and more over the years. Right to work laws for private businesses are a clear intrusion on the free market.
Should the government pass right to work for government jobs? Well, that should be an irrelevant question, since 99% of government jobs shouldn’t exist at all.
Looks like she delivered what the unions got her voted in for.
Unions are pure shit.
I’ve belonged to three unions during my career. Only one of them, the Teamsters, ever made an effort to look after members’ interests. The other two unions really did not give a flying fart for the rank and file workers. We were expected to be grateful to them; if we voiced the slightest criticism (or asked for an explanation about why our benefits were not increased), they treated us with disrespect and scorn.
Most of the rust belt is in a perennial decline driven by lefty politics. One tea party wave and 2016 outlier doesn't change that fact.
Whitmer should have been routed out of office a long time ago. But the left are the true tribalist. Remember, most of them voted for Fetterman KNOWING that he's unfit to serve. They'll vote for an AI who does party bidding over a sentient human being. They're self destructive individuals. Once they destroy their original habitat, they'll move and spread their disease to another area.
A union owns the means if production - the workers. The workers work as long and as hard as the Union tells them to. Individual workers do not exist - everybody is part of the labor collective. If you do not join the Union, you can't work.
I say the Union is socialist.
A labor union or a private business should be allowed to be as socialistic as they want. If a business and a union agree to pay all employees the same, regardless of how productive and hard-working the employee is, then the business and the union should be allowed to do that.
If any employee doesn’t like that, they can find another job that pays employees based on their actual merit.
A free market would allow employers to pay employees however the hell they want, even if the employer pays all employees exactly the same. It is very unlikely that an employer that pays all employees exactly the same would succeed in the free market, but the free market allows businesses to create policies that will almost inevitably result in the business failing.
Right to work laws are an infringement on the free market, just like laws preventing business from firing striking workers. (Unless the union and the business have formed a contract that protects the worker's right to strike.) Whitmer is generally terrible, but it's good that she repealed this law.
The rule of Libertarianism is that if a governor repeals a law (any type of law), then they're usually doing a good thing, and if a governor creates a new law, then they're usually doing a bad thing. Unfortunately, governors create new laws far more often than they repeal laws.
I have no idea why “right to work” laws would be perceived as libertarian.
No, I’m not a fan of workplaces forcing people to join a union. But if a workplace forces employees to join a union, then a workplace forces people to join a union, and the government shouldn’t prevent the workplace from doing so. If a worker doesn’t want to join a union, then they can find another job that doesn’t require them to join a union.