America's Losing Its Free Speech Consensus
Americans shouldn't have to fight to the death to defend their foes' right to speak, but they should at least stop trying to censor, shame, shun and destroy each other.

Whenever issues of free speech would arise, Americans would often quote Voltaire and say, "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire didn't actually say it—and only a fool would count on anyone to defend them, let alone to the death. Yet it was heartening that most people felt the need to champion free-speech absolutism.
These days, another free-speech cliché is in vogue: "You don't have the right to yell 'fire' in a crowded movie theater," they retort. Those who use this phrase are arguing that some types of speech are so hateful, offensive, misinformed, and dangerous that it shouldn't be allowed. Instead of fighting for your right to say things, these folks might have you silenced, jailed, fired, or shunned.
In a Christian Science Monitor article in 2021, writer Harry Bruinius cited those age-old aphorisms as he reflected on recent attacks on that old free-speech consensus: Both sides in their own ways have begun to emphasize why government authorities, private businesses, or college administrators should more tightly regulate, if not suppress, certain kinds of public speech."
The latest appalling speech news comes from Florida. One Republican legislator introduced Senate Bill 1316, which would require bloggers to register with the state government. Such journalistic registration requirements are chilling. They almost certainly violate the First Amendment, but it speaks volumes that any lawmaker would even propose such a thing.
Fortunately, the leading GOP presidential contender, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, quickly denounced the measure. Nevertheless, DeSantis has his own free-speech issues, as he has signed or proposed bans on teaching LGBTQ and race-related issues. He also signed a law that makes it easier for people to challenge books found in classroom libraries.
As a CNN column noted, DeSantis "also sought to shut down a drag show, citing a 1947 legal precedent banning 'men impersonating women'" and "has proposed to challenge the landmark Supreme Court decision on libel, narrowing the scope of press freedom."
The classroom- and library-related restrictions are problematic, but at least deal with public agencies. It seems like a bizarre moral panic to ban people from participating in voluntary drag shows. Conservatives are pushing back against left-wing campus speech codes and "cancel culture"—with their own types of speech codes and canceling criteria.
Cancel culture may be hard to define, but even The New York Times argues that, "many on the left refuse to acknowledge that cancel culture exists at all, believing that those who complain about it are offering cover for bigots." I don't typically applaud the Times, but agree that, "Americans are losing hold of a fundamental right…to speak their minds…without fear of being shamed or shunned."
Frustrated at perceived bias within social-media companies, many Republicans have championed government interventions ranging from turning those private firms into regulated monopolies to removing their protections from defamation lawsuits. They claim these proposals will promote free speech—but they ultimately make government regulators the arbiter of speech, or eliminate the rights of private companies to set up their own moderating and publishing rules.
Progressives mostly have used their social power—and arm-twisting from friendly federal regulators—to censor so-called COVID misinformation and cancel the social-media accounts of many conservatives. They also gladly use the legislative process to limit private speech-related decisions.
For instance, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down—on First Amendment grounds—California's law forcing crisis-pregnancy centers to provide abortion information even though they exist to provide alternatives to abortion. A new bill uses false-advertising laws to achieve the same goal. "We are outlawing misinformation," California state Rep. Rebecca Bauer-Kahan (D–Orinda), recently told The Sacramento Bee. Whatever one's views on abortion, we should agree it is not government's place to police the "truth."
Free-speech attacks stem from the nation's culture wars, by which warring factions seek to own the other side rather than uphold a neutral legal and political order. One prominent conservative law professor, Adrian Vermeule of Harvard, even argues we should reject "the libertarian assumptions central to free-speech law and free-speech ideology—that government is forbidden to judge the quality and moral worth of public speech."
Obviously, the First Amendment only applies to government efforts to restrict speech. Individuals and private companies (including social media platforms) have the right to set their own terms and conditions. You can say what you choose in your own publication, but this newspaper has no duty to publish it. You might not like the result, but it beats a world where the government judges the "quality and moral worth" of what we say.
Legalities aside, our nation would benefit from a renewed cultural commitment toward embracing a freewheeling public dialogue. I don't expect Americans to fight to the death to defend their foes' right to speak, but they should at least stop trying to censor, shame, shun and destroy each other.
This column was first published in The Orange County Register.
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"Nevertheless, DeSantis has his own free-speech issues, as he has signed or proposed bans on teaching LGBTQ and race-related issues."
...to children under the age of 8 unless the children specifically ask.
I mention it because I bet you meant to but kinda forgot.
Yeah, also, “in school” and “by teachers and administrators”. Greenhut and his pedo friends are still free to hold their pre-adolescent childhood trans-sex education seminars in their homes with their own labor on their own dime.
They seem oblivious that LITERALLY nobody gives the tiniest iota of a damn about drag shows for adults. I mean, they're hella lame and if you enjoy them, there is likely something wrong with you, but they aren't ANYBODY'S concern.
It's not obliviousness. They are deliberately conflating the issue.
Just come out and say that you support taxpayer-funded sex shows for small children.
It may well be the case that most conservatives/Republicans care care about drag shows only when children are involved, but it is not literally true that none care:
https://www.newsweek.com/alleged-proud-boys-threaten-violence-outside-drag-brunch-bodycam-video-1715694
"A group of people allegedly affiliated with the Proud Boys disrupted a drag brunch on Sunday morning"
"The event was a themed drag brunch for individuals 21 and older"
"A group of people allegedly affiliated"
You guys are barely even pretending anymore with your phony astroturfing attempts, Mike.
I agree with you that they are no a concern. I disagree that if you enjoy them there is something wrong with you. A long popular comedian in the UK and Australia is Barry Humphries best know for his female drag character Dame Edna Everage. He has been enjoyed by millions and there is nothing sexual or weird about his act. Actually cross-dressing has been a facet of the theatre for centuries. It goes back to the time when women weren't allowed to perform in the theatre so their parts were played by men dressed up.
I thought for once this wouldn't be an article that talked about the evils of DeSantis. I was wrong.
I guess the liberal libertarians who read Reason want to see it. From what I can tell, the looney left has become entirely fixated on Florida, while ignoring almost everything else happening in the country or world. It's the new boogeyman they can rally behind, and Reason is right there with them.
"Stop talking about DeSantis!"
“Start talking about the other 49 governors and their anti-liberty measures.”
There, fixed it for you, no charge,
Don't forget, there are lots of people outside the government who favor censorship, ANTIFA for instance when they showed up at University California Davis to protest Charlie Kirk's presence. It was mostly peaceful with only several broken windows and arrests made.
You can count on all those ANTIFA protestors to be from the local area much the same as they were with the recent mostly peaceful but fiery protest near Atlanta. ( sarc alert)
Reason magazine sucked Jared Polis's cock as the voice of libertarianism here many, many times, but as soon as he started gun grabbing it was crickets.
DeSantis however stops government funding for pedophilia and racism and he's the next Hitler.
You people are clowns.
"DeSantis however stops government funding for pedophilia and racism"
Well, he didn't do either of those things. Nothing he has done has stopped funding for pedophilia and racism, because there has never been any such funding.
I take it you don't keep up on current events?
What paleos call grooming and racism isn't either. Constantly repeating patently false things doesn't make them any less false.
You don't have to be a paleocon or an ideological conservative of any stripe to object to psychosexual experimentation on children, or the castration and sterilization of physically healthy minors, or open discrimination by racial collectivists to "even" historical scores, or Neo-Marxist theories of oppression and liberation of marginal identity groups allegedly victimized by whiteness, heteronormativity, and the gender binary.
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Not just elementary schools:
https://reason.com/2023/02/24/ron-desantis-wants-to-cultivate-viewpoint-diversity-by-censoring-universities/
You beat me to it.
Steve again carrying groomer water. the battle is between the bolshevik left and America. Those defending liberty do not want to censor the left, we just want them to leave.
Last I checked, Parents have the right to pull their Kids from class if they don't approve of anything with the School.
So how about that instead of Legislating Speech Laws
"They claim these proposals will promote free speech—but they ultimately make government regulators the arbiter of speech, or eliminate the rights of private companies to set up their own moderating and publishing rules."
...which has already been happening for a while now, per the Twitter files.
I mention it because I'm sure you meant to but kinda forgot.
…which has already been happening for a while now, per the
Twitter filesS230.The loss-of-consensus is older than Twitter and, long ago, Reason used to be on the anti-Free Speech Regulation side.
Well they are against regulation so they're now just on the anti-free speech side.
"Obviously, the First Amendment only applies to government efforts to restrict speech. Individuals and private companies (including social media platforms) have the right to set their own terms and conditions. You can say what you choose in your own publication, but this newspaper has no duty to publish it. You might not like the result, but it beats a world where the government judges the "quality and moral worth" of what we say."
But the government telling private companies what to allow, directly or indirectly, is a rather blatant First Amendment violation.
I mention it because I'm sure you meant to but kinda forgot. Again.
And when a company censorship under discussion of government, especially when paid or regulated, they can fall under 1a expectations. Turley, volokh, and other constitutional scholars have repeatedly stated this. But reason wanted the ongoing censorship until it was too obvious to ignore or hide.
And it's still nonsense. At least in the way you have expressed it.
Not if you're not an idiot. Volokh on this site gas articles on it. Turley just released an article a week ago about it. Educate yourself maybe?
ObviouslyShrike doesn't even read his own links. Why the hell would he research anything?
It would take away from his kiddie porn viewing.
The government doing those things obviously falls under "government efforts to restrict speech", which the author mentioned.
Government suggesting content moderation isn't a blatant First Amendment violation. That's the problem.
That's why it is such a good idea to pass a law prohibiting Federal employees from engaging in this type of activity:
https://reason.com/2023/03/15/house-republicans-pass-bill-to-prevent-federal-meddling-in-online-speech/
I would argue it’s pretty blatant, but bureaucrats think they’re above the law so they don’t really care.
"I mention it because I’m sure you meant to but kinda forgot. Again."
I'm starting to see a pattern here.
"It seems like a bizarre moral panic to ban people from participating in voluntary drag shows."
You mean the hypersexualized quasi-strip teases having prepubescents stuff dollar bills in the performer's lingerie? You consider objecting to that "bizarre"?
And free speech requires allowing government paid teachers to teach race essentialism as a good way of looking at society and their place in it?
Apparently, we have entered the Mountains of Madness.
Correcting again....
You mean, deliberately offensive provocative shows loudly advertised for small children that are entirely designed to elicit a response, secure in the knowledge that their allies in the press will entirely suppress the original provocation and only cover the response as if it were some unhinged, de-novo action born of internal animus and desire to attack a poor, helpless and vulnerable group.
If they want an unhinged response, we should start giving them an unhinged response.
That's what the power elite want—civil unrest severe enough to justify martial law.
For those who don't believe this is what is happening, or that it could possibly work, I give you my significant other, a useful example of the Everyman. Or in this case, every woman.
She watches NBC news. She reads such that comes up in her feed. She follows the murder trials of the day.
Last week they covered Florida responding to drag shows for kids. She asked what I thought of it.
She had never heard of the Drag Qeeen Story Hour stuff, had never heard of drag shows advertised for kids, or as family friendly. Did not believe that this ever happened.
We have been to drag shows. She knows they are far from family-friendly.
We have been to fantasy fest in Key West. Years ago it began to become corporatized and too big. People began bringing kids to the even. She called it out to me at the time as wildly inappropriate - there is not only a lot of raunchy nudity, there is sometimes quite inappropriate public displays of sexual activity.
Yet here shi is, years later... And watching NBC and a little CNN and court TV, along with her news feed... She genuinely wonders why Republicans are going after drag shows out of the blue. When I mentioned that it is about kids, she says "nobody takes kids too a drag show".
The mainstream coverage has left her completely in the dark about every aspect of the story that is salient, and left her with a shell of the truth. An extreme example of the "Republicans pounce" effect.
This is the entire point. BLM exists to create racist white responses so they can cover it that way. Drag queen story time exists to get someone to say no, so they can cover the "anti gay hate". Trans women competing in women's sports is pushed to create push back.
The entire point is to walk back the gains of MLK and deconstruct the colorblind society.
They*need* people to vote on group identity and grievance, not on policy.
Look at Biden's budget. He wants to give nearly a trillion dollars to Raytheon and Boeing... But because they are running the agent provocateur gambit, they are skating on even discussing it.
All while the FBI and the CIA et. al. Ensure that nobody talks about anything they don't want you talking about.
Well put. +1
They want us, the people, to be mushrooms - kept in the dark and fed bullshit.
BLM is a massive hoax. Grifters and con artists who have used Jesse Jackson's method of shaking down every corporation and big business to the tune of billions. Yes, billions. Yet they don't seem to care or even show concern about the black on black violence and murder.
Patrice Coullors is an avowed Marxist.
BLM was founded on Marxism. So say it’s founders.
You make a good point. Hence the headlines that introduce a progressive provocation by making the conservative response to it the subject of the article.
You make a great point. When people's selected media ignores issues or obfuscates them, they are then confused at the actions of others because they aren't fully informed.
I remember my assistant at my office who mentioned one day about Joe Rogan taking horse de-wormer for COVID. She only watches MSNBC and CNN for news. I laughed a little, but then mentioned that Ivermectin was actually a human drug and she looked really puzzled. She then said no, he wasn't taking a human medication, that he was taking a medication for horses.
Her news sources were so wanting to "own" Joe Rogan that they never once bothered mentioning that Ivermectin was established and is used as a human drug. She had no idea.
Also mention that the developers of Ivermectin received a NOBEL PRIZE because it was so effective at suppressing River Blindness in Africa.
Do you have a source for your assertion that prepubescents are stuffing dollar bills in the performer’s lingerie - this is a claim I have not heard before and would appreciate any evidence supporting it.
I am not sure if you intended to say that free speech requires allowing government paid teachers to teach race essentialism—the belief that racial groups form discrete genetic categories; that individuals of the same racial category are biogenetically similar; and that different races are fundamentally different—can cause people to perceive racial outgroup members as less worthy of affection and assistance. If you did - then I agree, teachers should not be teaching racism. However, I suspect that a deeper dive would find that I oppose allowing this to be taught because it is demonstrably false and some others would conflate this with any teaching of race in American History that makes anyone have to address uncomfortable facts about History. I doubt that you are one of these people who want to rewrite history as an exercise in feel good flag waving but they are out there and they want to spread lies. In my book that is not freedom of speech, its just lying.
Any evidence:
https://thepostmillennial.com/outrage-resurfaced-photo-shows-young-child-putting-money-in-burlesque-dancers-underwear
A recently resurfaced image depicting an elementary-aged girl sticking money into a burlesque dancer’s panties has sparked outrage.
Clarifying Mickey Rat’s comment:
Poe’s law is an adage of Internet culture saying that, without a clear indicator of the author’s intent, any parody of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of the views being parodied.
Thanks. While disturbing, it also appears to be a fortunately isolated incident. In the third most populous country on earth we are unavoidably open to a large range of behaviors (good and bad). I am struck by the eagerness of some to take what some people would call decisive and others repressive action based on real but isolated events while being willing to not respond to sadly far more common and deadly events.
These "isolated incidents" regarding the sexualization of minors within "LGBTQIA+ culture" are becoming a bit too trendy.
Just to clarify, and it is even says it in the article you linked to, that is not a photo from a drag show. The performer is actually a woman.
Wait, is that true? The story of the kid stuffing dollars into a drag queen's panties isn't about a drag queen?
Anti-drag folks, is your origin story wrong?
With the exception of a handful of idiot Republican legislators from blood red districts who affirm everything the social left claims about conservatives generally, no one wants to ban drag shows for adults. It isn't anti-drag queen. It's opposition to the attempts to turn women into defeminized genderless husks, men into pseudo-effeminate manchildren, and children into sexual narcissists' playthings stripped of their innocence.
Obviously, the First Amendment only applies to government efforts to restrict speech. Individuals and private companies (including social media platforms) have the right to set their own terms and conditions. You can say what you choose in your own publication, but this newspaper has no duty to publish it.
Sigh. You're talking out both sides of your mouth when it comes to social media. On the one hand, they have the right to decide what they will and won't publish, but on the other, they aren't a publisher and can't be treated like a publisher, even though they're making editorial decisions about what can and can't be published. You can't be both not a publisher, but also a publisher, you need to pick a lane.
Section 230 makes it explicitly clear that the speaker, not the platform, is responsible for their own speech. Twitter is not a newspaper. If Twitter wants to censor certain ideas, it should state those up front in its terms of service, not lie about what it's going to consider acceptable and then quietly remove or hide content it doesn't like.
It's not like a forum dedicated to a specific subject matter asking people to stay on topic. If your car discussion forum (or subreddit, or whatever) is getting clogged up by people talking about Marvel movies, you can ask them to move that conversation elsewhere because it's reasonably using the space how it's intended. But removing someone who says that COVID originated in a lab is not a realistic moderation decision for Facebook or Twitter because they don't state any terms or expectations for what subjects you cannot discuss.
I wouldn't have a problem with Twitter or any big social media platform shutting down conservative voices if that was what they advertised. It's the false business practice of claiming they're open to everyone and then discriminating after the fact which is shitty. And I'm not saying it needs to be illegal, I'm saying there needs to be some method of relief or tort for customers for the false product they've been sold. I don't think Best Buy should face criminal penalties if the TV they sold you doesn't work, but the customer should have some means of being made whole.
You should demand Twitter give you a full refund.
You mean take them to court to (re)claim ownership of the content you generated? You can’t, despite S230 not specifically delineating the issue with regard to TOS, it’s been broadly interpreted as preventing it repeatedly.
Do you think your “You don’t pay anything to use Twitter!” argument is new or do you think it just makes you look like a willfully stupid propagandist? The only reasons someone would present themselves as stupid in defense of such an action is if they really didn’t care about free speech, genuinely were stupid, or a combination of the two.
Right. There are people who monetize their Twitter or other social media accounts. I certainly don’t, I’m nobody and I’m not selling anything. But people who rely on having that access to promote their products or provide updates, they lose money being banned. And that’s not a justified result, if they followed reasonable terms of service.
"...if they followed reasonable terms of service."
And who do you trust better, to make these "reasonable" judgments, the service provider (property owner), or Government Almighty?
As you ponder this matter, please consider the below questions:
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
The day after tomorrow, you get a jury summons. You will be asked to rule in the following case: A poster posted the following to social media: “Government Almighty LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know!”
This attracted protests from liberals, who thought that they may have detected hints of sarcasm, which was hurtful, and invalidated the personhoods of a few Sensitive Souls. It ALSO attracted protests from conservatives, who were miffed that this was a PARTIAL truth only (thereby being at least partially a lie), with the REAL, full TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH being, “Government Almighty of Der TrumpfenFuhrer ONLY, LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know! Thou shalt have NO Government Almighty without Der TrumpfenFuhrer, for Our TrumpfenFuhrer is a jealous Government Almighty!”
Ministry of Truth, and Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings, officials were consulted. Now there are charges!
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THE JUROR:
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, true or false?
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, hurtful sarcasm or not?
Will you be utterly delighted to serve on this jury? Keep in mind that OJ Simpson got an 11-month criminal trial! And a 4-month civil trial!
"OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230"
You haven't even got a clue what 230 was about.
You actually said you thought thought it constrained government power rather than stopping private individuals from suing corporations.
And furthermore, you didn't even recognize the actual text of section 230 when I posted it and thought it was someone trying to malign it by misrepresentation.
And yet here you are pretending that we can't answer your questions on 230. Questions born out of your sheer ignorance as to what it even is for.
Fuck you.
Look, Stupid Bitch, SUING people in the courts of Government Almighty... Involves the exercise of Government Almighty powers over could-have-otherwise-been-free, NOT-sued individuals!!! Duh, Double-Duh!!!!
Hey EvilBahnFuhrer… No matter HOW many times you tell your “Big Lie”, it is NOT true! You’re part of the mob, aren’t you, gangster? For a small fee, you tell small businesses that you will “protect” them… From you and your mob! Refute the below, ye greedy authoritarian who wants to shit all over the concept of private property!
Look, I’ll make it pretty simple for simpletons. A prime argument of enemies of Section 230 is, since the government does such a HUGE favor for owners of web sites, by PROTECTING web site owners from being sued (in the courts of Government Almighty) as a “publisher”, then this is an unfair treatment of web site owners! Who SHOULD (lacking “unfair” section 230 provisions) be able to get SUED for the writings of OTHER PEOPLE! And punished by Government Almighty, for disobeying any and all decrees from Government Almighty’s courts, after getting sued!
In a nutshell: Government Almighty should be able to boss around your uses of your web site, because, after all, Government Almighty is “protecting” you… From Government Almighty!!!
Wow, just THINK of what we could do with this logic! Government Almighty is “protecting” you from getting sued in matters concerning who you chose to date or marry… In matters concerning what line of work you chose… What you eat and drink… What you read… What you think… Therefore, Government Almighty should be able to boss you around on ALL of these matters, and more! The only limits are the imaginations and power-lusts of politicians!
What pure and utter sophistry.
"SUING people in the courts of Government Almighty… Involves the exercise of Government Almighty powers over could-have-otherwise-been-free, NOT-sued individuals!!! Duh, Double-Duh!!!!"
Aside from not being true, this doesn't even make sense. Who are you trying to trick?
If you win a lawsuit against me, and I ignore the court's findings, fines, penalties, awards of damages, and just say, "Fuck you, stupid court! Shove your court orders up your ass!"
What happens next, Perfect Mental Giant? Do they write their NEXT writ on Magic Paper, with Magic Ink, that makes me writhe in pain? Or do they SEND GOVERNMENT ALMIGHTY GOONS after me to PUNISH me? Take my shit, garnish my wages, fleece my bank account, etc.?
Stupid Bitch! Try and acknowledge the REAL world! WHY do people even BOTHER to take shit to court, if the courts are NOT backed up by government goons?!?! HELLO?!?!?!
And what the fuck does that have to do with 230? Literally any lawsuit for any reason amounts to that. Are you trying to say it should be illegal to sue?
Toddler level sophistry.
Lawsuits should be used only to provide justice that cannot otherwise be provided. Suing people FOR THE WRITINGS OF OTHER PEOPLE is NEVER just! Punishing "Party A" for the free-will choices of "Party B" is never just! Only assholes, evil people, and authoritarians believe otherwise!
Maybe they shouldn't set themselves to be dependent on an income stream based on using a social media site whose Terms of Use contract is stacked in favor of the social media company giving them an account for free.
Essentially, it's no different than maybe you shouldn't deposit more than $250,000 in a bank account that is only guaranteed up to $250,000.
Maybe she shouldn't have worn such a short skirt. Why are you victim blaming? Depriving people of access to something they're relying on without proper warning is a shitty policy and the company deserves criticism for it, and perhaps bears responsibility for damages incurred.
When your neighbor STOPS lending you his or her tools for free, for ANY reason, do you consider SUING your neighbor for your damages, in NOT being able to to borrow the tools for FREE any more? That is pretty precisely the same as your free services from social media! The "contract" is TOTALLY in their favor, too!
See Reason.com up top, for example... "We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time."
Quit whining!
Suggesting an equivalence is insulting to rape victims.
Fuck you. People lost their livelihoods because Twitter broke it's ToS in order to censor for the government.
You're so disgusting.
Contracts were violated and, due to contract violations, people lost non-trivial amounts of money? THAT is what “civil lawsuits” are all about! Take Your Perfect Case to COURT, in THAT case!
(Tearing down Section 230, and violating the speech and property rights of other people, is NOT a fix here anyway!)
Hey Marxist Mammary-Fuhrer... Ya got any EXAMPLES of people who were ripped off in this manner, took it to civil court(s), and LOST, unfairly? Citation(s) please!!!
Yes. There's even some in the article above.
You don't even know what you're arguing about, do you.
"Yes. There’s even some in the article above."
Marxist Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer is hallucinating again! There are NO such examples there, Perfect Lying Botched-Up Bitch!
Yes, this! I want my money back! They took down my post! WAAAAAA!!!!!
Twitter and Facebook should literally issue people whose accounts have been suspended checks for $0.00.
People pay good money to Facebook to host business pages and to promote those pages, you ignorant fuck. Most never got refunds when they were taken down.
Are you really this ignorant or are you just dissembling?
Contracts were violated and, due to contract violations, people lost non-trivial amounts of money? THAT is what "civil lawsuits" are all about! Take Your Perfect Case to COURT, in THAT case!
(Tearing down Section 230, and violating the speech and property rights of other people, is NOT a fix here anyway!)
Do you know how expensive that is, you piece of shit? Suing a $560 billion company?
These people are already losing money because their advertising is cut off and they're illegally blacklisted because of politicians, and they don't have the money. You only get justice if you can afford it.
You're so evil.
You're disgusting.
You're vermin.
Nobody good ever says the evil things you do.
Hey Marxist Mammary-Fuhrer… Ya got any EXAMPLES of people who were ripped off in this manner, took it to civil court(s), and LOST, unfairly? Citation(s) please!!!
A full refund of all the money they've made selling our personal information and access to our eyes?
"Section 230 makes it explicitly clear that the speaker, not the platform, is responsible for their own speech."
Section 230 also makes it explicitly clear that when the platform "is responsible, in whole or in part, for the creation or development of information provided through the Internet or any other interactive computer service" they are responsible for their own speech.
Be a "platform" all you want, but as soon as you start actively promoting certain content or actively suppressing others then, per the black letter of the act you are an Information Content Provider and you do not have protection from liability.
That the courts have seen fit to ignore this in favor of BigTech and Big Government is corruption pure and simple.
"Be a “platform” all you want, but as soon as you start actively promoting certain content or actively suppressing others then, per the black letter of the act you are an Information Content Provider and you do not have protection from liability."
Take down that child porn or that murder-for-hire ad, and ALL protection (from being punished for the speech of OTHER people!) is taken away! 'Cause power pigs and punishment pigs say so!
"Publisher. Platform. Pick one." ... 'Cause Power Pig said so!
Your large and ugly punishment boner is showing!!! Be decent, and COVER UP, will ya?!?!?
If you want to love animals, pamper your pets. If you love to eat meat, eat meat. Pick one, ONLY one!
You either love animals, or you eat meat… You can NOT do both! All pet owners who eat meat? Their pets will be slaughtered and their pet-meat distributed to the poor! Because I and 51% of the voters said so! And because we are power pigs, and LOOOOOVE to punish people!
So you couldn't refute him so you shitposted spam instead.
Marxist Mammary-Fuhrer agrees with the power and punishment pigs!!! What an UDDER surprise, Marxist Mammary-Fuhrer!!!!!
Yeah. Just like that.
where the real problem exists is whithin the universities and colleges where neo-Marxist professors indoctrinate young people into communism. Where students learn to attack anybody who dares disagree with their ideology.
Witness the recent attack at U.C. Davis where they tried to attack Charlie Kirk. In the past several years ANTIFA along with others have used violence and the threat of violence if certain speakers are even allowed on campus let alone speak there. Building were threatened with arson, violence has erupted, people arrested and nothing has changed.
This is where the real problem exists.
Where does the First Amendment talk about being a publisher or not?
It doesn’t, but that is immaterial to A Thinking Mind’s argument. Yours is a classic example of the informal fallacy ignoratio elenchi, or missing the point.
OK, I’m a moron — please explain the point to me.
In 2014 the Senate Democrat caucus proposed an amendment to the Constitution that would have significantly weakened the 1st Amendment protections for free speech/press rights protections because they were still salty over SCOTUS gutting the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law in the Citzens United case. Reason staff at the time largely dismissed this as a meaningless stunt that would never pass. Nothing to worry about, despite having the support of all the Dem Senators and especially the leadership.
Today's staff thinks a single state senator proposing a bad law, but has absolutely no support by anyone else, is a concerning trend. Despite the notion, had the Democtrats had their amendment passed, that bad legislation might just be considered Constitutional
That was a few years *after* serious democrat voices began questioning the 1st Amendment in its entirety. They're have been numerous calls on the left to repeal the first amendment.
But sure... Not letting 35 year old men in leotards and lipstick grind their crotch in front of 8 year old boys is a more clear and present danger to free speech than the FBI showing up with the FTC to ensure that your news coverage follows Party Guidelines. Gotta fortify those elections, after all.....
We just had Chuck Schumer, the majority leader of the Senate and arguably the 3rd most powerful member of the Democrat party, call for the suppression of a journalist over the revealing of the J6 footage. That seems a little more appalling than one guy, in one state legislator.
What does "largely" dismissed mean?
You’ll find it in the dictionary right next to sealioning.
While “largely” can be construed as a weasel word, you’re obviously not interested in any meaningful qualification. That even one of Reason’s staff dismissed the Senate Democrats’ proposed amendment as a meaningless stunt validates Mickey Rat’s argument. If you have evidence to the contrary, make a counter argument, rather than incessantly barking for proof.
“While ‘largely’ can be construed as a weasel word”
You could have stopped there. I was obviously highlighting the weaseliness of the statement, not asking for a definition.
I thought, from the headline, that someone at Reason might have actually grown a few brain cells and was finally calling out the authoritarian regime that the Democratic party has become.
But no, my bad, it's yet another anti-DeSantis, pro-sex-shows-for-kids article.
You writers are just tiresome at this point.
Holy shit.
Welp, that settles it.
No rational human could have written this tripe of their own free will.
You guys actually know Barry Weiss, Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald, Michael Shellenberger and company. There is no way Reason publishes this Ministry of Truth level nonsense of their own free will.
Please, please tell me that they kidnapped your kids, or they have the pictures of you stealing the Banksy painting. Something. What possible excuse could you have for this?
" What possible excuse could you have for this?"
Other than being Steve Greenhut, right?
Not like this sham hasn't been his entire career.
This is from the top down. My outraged question is not to the writers (although, do you guys have no integrity?) But to the editors and the board.
Holy shit.
Welp, that settles it.
No rational human could have written this tripe of their own free will.
Cyto lost its free will (maybe its virginity ass well) to the Lizard People, and now can no longer write thoughtful crap; only insults and shit!
Maybe they're just evil totalitarian cancer.
Seems to be the answer most consistent with all available evidence.
Keep in mind the owner of Reason, Charles Koch. His far more libertarian brother, David, is long gone, and Charles has gone ahead with partnerships with George Soros and even attends the WEF. They have marching orders.
>>stealing the Banksy painting
"sir, put the wall back where it goes. thank you."
As usual Reason bashes Republican without mentioning really important things that Democrats are doing. Democrats are so much worse. Calling out Republicans without equal treatment of Democrats equals praising Democrats. Which is all Reason does. Want proof? Just look at yesterdays articles. Not a single one mentioned Biden or the budget. Just Republican bashing. Fucking leftist traitors. Every single one.
Besides that, Reason should know that morality and the culture war is much more important than the stupid Constitution.
Wow. Strong words.
Libertarians are just democrats who need to feel different and special.
They're not Republicans, that's for sure. If they were real libertarians they'd oppose free trade, support protectionist industrial policy, heavily curtail the free movement of people, and demand censorship in the name of morality. As it is they're just a bunch of leftists.
REAL libertarians are into worshitting DeSatan!
DeSatan… SPEAKS to me! Get Thee behind me, DeSatan!
Scienfoology Song… GAWD = Government Almighty’s Wrath Delivers
DeSatan loves me, This I know,
For DeSatan tells me so,
Little ones to GAWD belong,
We are weak, but GAWD is strong!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
DeSatan loves me, yes indeed,
Makes the illegal sub-humans bleed,
Protects me for geeks and freaks,
I LOVE to pay taxes, till my wallet squeaks!
PUNISH Disney, I’ll PAY for their pains,
Ass long ass DeSatan Blesses our gains!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
DeSatan expels the low-lifes to Venus,
Moves them ANYWHERE, with His Penis!
His Penis throbs with His Righteousness,
Take no heed, He says, of His Frighteousness!
ALL must be PUNISHED, they say!
So never, EVER be or say gay!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
Our USA taxes must PAY The Way, He may say,
To EXPORT the illegal Mars aliens, every day!
To Pluto, Jupiter, or Uranus, they must ALL go!
Oh, the places that the low-lifes will go, you must know!
The taxes we shall pay? Through the money, we must BLOW!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
Yes, DeSatan loves me!
DeSatan tells me so!
(If we did NOT do-doo, doo-doo-doo, ALL of this, then that them thar illegal Mars aliens WILL show up on OUR doors, in the formerly pure USA!!! We MUST keep them AWAY, far away, out in the Deep Dark Yonder!)
#MeInTheAss’CauseI’maGullibleLowBrowBlowHardConTard
#BeenTrumpledUnderfootForFarTooLong
Oof.
Instead of the reflexive negation of any critique, how about a positive statement of policy?
Where do you stand on the FBI and the CIA using the power of the state to control free speech?
That seems easy enough. What should be done about it?
What's the point in me telling you what I think? You'll just call me a liar and tell me what I really think.
You certainly have no problem telling us what you think about criticizing the left or Reason. If anyone said you were lying about disagreeing with people who criticize the left, I missed it.
If you are afraid to tackle CIA psyops in the US, try out the red-meat scenario below. See if you can come up with a serious proposal for how you would handle it.
If anyone said you were lying about disagreeing with people who criticize the left, I missed it.
There are four people in particular who consistently drop lies and accusations of lying on most of my posts. I'm surprised you missed it.
Do they say you are lying about being critical of people whondeign to criticize the left or Reason?
Or do they attack assertions about actual events?
Because I see a lot of disingenuous positions being taken up in every political argument these days, all for the experience of constructing straw men to slaughter.
But the current topic is a more limited arena.
Naysaying for the purpose of mucking up the discussion and preventing the casual observer from gaining insight might prove effective, but it is hardly noble. And there are definitely several folks who are here for that purpose, and that purpose only.
Dude, I could tell you the time of say and they'd say I'm a leftist. They're fucking retarded.
Couldn't be because you defend and white knight them all the fucking time, now could it? Of course not. Let's a take a couple of days ago when I critiqued Reason for not covering the end of right-to-work in Michigan. It's a topic which Reason has covered and promoted extensively in the past, yet when the end of it comes in a state (where they championed the right-to-work law just a decade ago), they have nothing to say about it. Not even a blurb on the Roundup is said. You decided, out of your infinite wisdom, to attack me, not for the article, not because I might support right-to-work, not because you might not support right-to-work, but because I dared critique Reason about the lack of coverage on the issue.
Bzzzzt. Wrong.
I said to you that their not including something you feel to be important doesn’t indicate their opinion on the matter. It just means they didn’t include it. Everything that follows “They ignored this because…” is horseshit.
"So and so didn't say anything about such and such, and that is very telling..." No, it's the opposite of telling.
Right.
https://reason.com/2023/03/14/ride-share-and-delivery-drivers-are-independent-contractors-says-court/?comments=true#comment-9967535
sarcasmic 3 days ago
No shit. The fact that Reason isn’t reporting on this means they support mandatory union membership, right? If they come out later and say they oppose it then they’re lying. Not reporting in a timely fashion is proof that they’re leftists.
sarcasmic 3 days ago (edited)
I think that their failure to report on a story that you feel to be important is no more significant than you having a sore leg. It’s a you problem, not a them problem.
sarcasmic 3 days ago
You’re the one claiming that their failure to do what you want them to do means something.
sarcasmic 3 days ago (edited)
So Reason must support this by virtue of them not saying that they oppose it, right?
What other point can someone be trying to make by saying “Why isn’t there an article about this?!?!”?
sarcasmic 3 days ago
Right. Until they do write about it. But by then the narrative has been set and anything they say that contradicts what was said about them must be a lie. Right?
You claimed that their failure to report on something indicated their true opinion on the matter, and I said you're making stuff up.
What's your point?
For your recollection, my comment on the matter:
InsaneTrollLogic 3 days ago
And where’s Reason on this regarding free markets?
InsaneTrollLogic 3 days ago
You don’t think that they should be interested in right-to-work laws?
That was it. Where did I make a mention of their true opinion on the matter, Sarc? Somewhere in here, you're misrepresenting what was said.
Then you can tackle the tougher questions that have more nuance. What should one do if there is a movement to infiltrate institutions like schools and propagandize children? To make it easy, let’s do fundamentalist christians instead of Marxists. So let’s say that most education schools were run by fundamentalist christians. Not even the good kind. The Westboro Baptist kind. And let’s say that for the last few decades the had been quietly turning up the ideology, such that you now had a generation of teachers who pushed a decidedly christian, and anti-gay agenda in schools.
It isn’t a school policy. Individual teachers are putting up “pray away the gay” signs, and “Jesus hates gays”. But school policy does quietly push the same ideology, hidden away in assignments about math or history.
They also teach that a woman’s place is in the home. There are even allusions to the earth being only 6,000 years old pervading the curriculum.
Now… You are the governor of California. The government in Sacramento and surrounding counties is decidedly more conservative than you are. They support these school administrators who are allowing this to happen. You have the support of your legislature.
What do you do?
I don't have the answers. I never claimed to. I'll say that if I was king there would be a voucher system and parents could decide where their kids go. That would introduce competition which I believe would fix many of the problems you mention. Alas I am not king, and vouchers are political suicide.
So as governor, you would cede the educational system to the anti-gay fundamentalist zealots? You wouldn’t even make a speech denouncing the teaching of hateful beliefs to children? Not even a single polemic against “anti-science” creationism being taught?
The “political suicide” observation is also important, because in this red-meat hypothetical, the Westboro nuts also control the journalism schools. So you have a supportive press in your way. Any claim you make will be hungrily devoured and “debunked” by fact-check organizations. So fighting against the Westboro agenda carries a high cost in terms of press coverage.
And you wouldn’t even make a speech? How long do you imagine you could maintain that support in the legislature as Westboro indoctrination grows? How long could your party survive, even as an effective opposition?
Not even a single diatribe about anti-science luddites in the press pushing a religious agenda? Just let them have the field all to themselves?
I can't say what I would do as governor. It's not a job I've ever considered. So you're putting words into my mouth here.
What I said was that I support a voucher system where the money is tied to the student, and the parent decides where the kid goes to school. If the parents are anti-gay fundamentalist zealots then they send their kids to an anti-gay fundamentalist school. If the parents are woke then they send their kids to a woke school.
I lack the hubris to feel a need to force my will onto others, which is one of the many reasons I'd make a shitty politician.
Huh. That seems at odds with your passionate opposition to any who argue conservative opinions here. Or even critique of leftist positions.
Is this your honest self-assessment?
I know a lot of us are genetically contrarian. Or perhaps more accurately, pedantic about correcting blatant misstatements.
I suffer that common libertarian malady. Trump's first year in the campaign was painful for me, as my favorite Reason writers kept saying things that were so outrageously false that they demanded a response. I was forced by my innate predisposition to repeatedly type "stop making me defend this buffoon" as a preamble to a reposte.
XKCD put it better
https://xkcd.com/386/
But one would have to wonder... Why pick "defend reason and the left from valid criticism" as the pedantic hill to die upon, instead of the "holy crap. You guys are supposed to be the libertarian flagship and you are being partisan shills" hill? I mean, there are already hundreds of millions of dollars behind "don't look at Taibbi's work on pervasive government censorship - look over here at some Florida representative you never heard of! He wants bloggers to register!".
Where we differ is that I don’t see Reason as partisan shills for Democrats. I see Republican partisan shills accusing anyone who disagrees with them of being Democrat party shills, but that doesn’t make it so.
"Oh my god Reason was critical of DeSantis! They're shilling for Democrats! What's that? An article criticizing Biden and the budget? Ignore it. It doesn't exist. If it did then they wouldn't be shills for Democrats. Look at that! They mentioned Trump! They're partisan shills!"
"Where do you stand on the FBI and the CIA using the power of the state to control free speech?
That seems easy enough. What should be done about it?"
Well, since I have such ENORMOUS influence with the Powers that Be, I can persuade them to set free ALL of the multitudes of people who are in jail, right now in the USA, for NOT having moderated their web sites according to the wishes of Government Almighty!
So I'll make you a deal! (I don't have enough influence to free those who posted child porn or did drug deals or murder-for-hire online, or revealed bona fide national security secrets such as, who right now are deployed overseas as undercover CIA agents, etc., but...) NAME these people who are in jail for "wrong" moderation of political policy editorials, or even wrong facts about COVID, and I bet I can get them sprung loose pretty quickly! So please name the names!
When they co-ordinate that power with the universities, means near victory over freedom of speech.
I thought we were supposed to be "Republicans who smoke pot."
Death, taxes, and sarc raping a strawman.
One member of a state congress proposes a stupid law that got zero support from the governor or the rest of the legislature, and Reason has written a half-dozen articles about it. Yet they remain remarkably unperturbed by hard evidence of pervasive and aggressive censorship by the Feds of anything that goes against the government's narrative.
They've run tons of articles about that last sentence of yours. You're just proving my point that the partisan zealots either see only the articles they want to see, or they're a bunch of liars.
Really? Reason has only tacitly acknowledged that the Twitter Files exist, and that was very recently.
Whatever. How about the charade of a hearing with Bari Weiss, Matt Taibbi, and Michael Schellenger, then? That, too, was a much more troubling assault on the First Amendment than random lone state senator.
One of these things is not like the other:
I know the first one is a quote and not Greenhut's words, but the last one is his words. And given the unequal applicaton of "but my private company" (i.e. you better bake that damn cake) I would have hoped for a harsher rebuke of the practice.
I’m all for free speech, but misinformation and disinformation are the biggest threats our democracy faces. How can people be expected to vote correctly if it isn’t simple for them to know what they’re supposed to think? Remember 2016? It could happen again.
Funny.
And sad.
lol
https://twitter.com/AuronMacintyre/status/1636712348542009346?t=_MAwqe11TZc_613OHA68Ig&s=19
“Forced puberty” now joins “forced birth” in the radical push for dehumanization through social engineering
Every natural biological process, every transition from one way of being to another, must be arrested until the individual gives consent
And by “individual gives consent” they mean until the social engineers allow it
The individual isn’t empowered, they’re only given a new master
The total state replaces biology
[Link]
Even married, gay, father and expat lawyer turned journalist Glenn Greenwald recognizes the danger of the current push to permanently alter prepubescent children in this way.
Nobody outside of a tiny niche of activists could possibly believe that chemically castrating a clinically depressed 13 year old boy because he is having a crisis of identity is a good idea. Yet they have managed to dominate the national conversation and make it seem that only a regressive minority (of only far right Republicans) opposes this enlightened policy.
He should also realize that, taken to its logical extreme, trans theory indicates homosexuality does not exist. Defies logic to argue that sexual attraction is set in stone while sex itself is malleable. In trans ideology, gay men are just trans women waiting to happen.
That’s the Islamofascist position. That’s why Iran is at the forefront of M2F sex change operations.
And that’s why progressives love it and lump together homosexuality and transgenderism: they have wanted to castrate and eliminate gay men for more than a century. They used to call it “eugenics” and claimed that “The Science” demanded it.
Yes. Genderism is a genocide against Gay boys.
Death is white supremacy.
Prepubescent children lack the capacity to make decisions about fertility, hormones, sexual maturity, or really anything involving their adult selves. They have no concept of what they are agreeing to. In no other area of life does this amount to consent.
No matter how often you repeat these lies, what DeSantis is doing is not an attack on free speech.
Government employees do not have a right to use government resources to spread their own opinions.
And allowing libel suits is not an infringement on free speech.
allowing libel suits is not an infringement on free speech.
It is exactly an infringement, but it is one that is generally accepted as a legitimate infringement, similarly immediate verbal incitement to a criminal act.
It's quite natural to pretend that rules against libel or incitement are not infringements, because you don't want to have to address the resulting problem, that now you've shown that there are circumstances where free speech may be infringed upon, who knows what else might be restricted on the grounds that the right isn't absolute?
But that's the nature of reality. Just accept that there is no absolute right to free speech, and nonetheless try to have as few infringements as possible, consistent with a free and civilised society.
Kudos to SRG, who knows that human affairs are unavoidably complex! Who can see and acknowledge NUANCE! Who actually lives in the real world! But that makes SRG a "leftist" in the eyes of the Trump cultists and DeSatan cultists.
Libel laws punish you for the consequences of speech, not for the speech itself. Ditto for incitement to a criminal act, fraud, or many other actions performed using speech. Without the illegal consequences of the speech, the speech itself would be perfectly legal.
Yeah, that is the excuse totalitarians like you use for trying to destroy free speech.
that is the excuse totalitarians like you use for trying to destroy free speech.
Bullshit. But if you are punished for the potential consequences of speech, it's not free. Have you the right to incite a criminal act immediately? Have you the right to defame someone? Have you the right tp commit perjury? If you answer, "no" to any of these, you're conceding that the right is not absolute, but as you strike me as the kind of person who is unable to reason from his principles to their consequences, you might not get that point. Lots of irrational people hate counter-arguments that consider extreme cases.
Look, you can play semantic games with the words “free speech” all you want.
What I mean by the term is the following.
Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany, regardless of what other acts you take and in all contexts. Insulting the German president is illegal, regardless of other actions you take and in all contexts. Those are laws limiting free speech.
A defamatory statement, a fraudulent statement, an incitement to a criminal act only become illegal by virtue of some other act you take or some independently illegal consequence resulting from the speech. That is why I do not consider them “limitations on free speech”. The distinction is pretty straightforward. You’re welcome to try to come up with ambiguous cases, but none of the ones you have mentioned so far qualify.
Whatever your understanding of the meaning of the term “free speech” is doesn’t seem to allow for such a clear, bright line, which makes your understanding of it a lot less useful to libertarians, and a lot more useful to totalitarians.
Especially when the money comes from taxpayers and the parents of children.
For those of you pretending that Reason is principled in their coverage and just calling it like it is, I will remind you that at the exact time this article was being written, president Joe Biden was on air demanding that TikTok be sold from chinese control or else he would ban it.
Now... Go ahead and defend a "threat to free speech is growing from both sides" article that mentions some back bench republican state rep who made a proposal that nobody supports, but didn't mention a measure being taken by the freaking president of the United States against one of the largest platforms for speech on the internet because he wants more US control of the platform and less china control of the platform.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/03/13/congress-gets-serious-about-tiktok-legislation/
"Spurred by a stalled CFIUS negotiation with TikTok, Michael Ellis tells us, a dozen well-regarded Democrat and Republican Senators have joined to endorse the Restricting the Emergence of Security Threats that Risk Information and Communications Technology (RESTRICT) Act, which authorizes the exclusion of companies based in hostile countries from the U.S. economy. The administration has also jumped on the bandwagon, making the adoption of some legislation on the topic more likely than in the past."
Note BOTH SIDES are offending here! Team R and Team D alike, if you can read the above! And WTF, do you demand that Reason.com criticize EVERY WRONG-DOER for ALL the sins of humankind in EVERY article?
The attacks on free speech and expression are coming from ONE side of the aisle.
I don't think I need to spell out who that is.
https://www.npr.org/2020/05/28/863932758/stung-by-twitter-trump-signs-executive-order-to-weaken-social-media-companies
Stung By Twitter, Trump Signs Executive Order To Weaken Social Media Companies
So your “fix” for this is to vote for Trump again? Or for Josh Hawley? https://reason.com/2019/03/01/josh-hawley-section-230-big-tech-cpac/ Sen. Josh Hawley Rails Against ‘Big Tech,’ Anti-Conservative Bias, and Section 230
https://reason.com/2019/06/25/the-moral-scolds-new-illiberal-right-internet-hawley-230/ The Moral Scolds of the New Illiberal Right Are Coming For Your Internet
From Sohrab Ahmari to Josh Hawley, what the new right really wants is to squelch free expression.
TRUST in us, just TRUST in us, they say!!!
Please stop trying to hide your Florida Man Bad articles under libertarian headlines.
5 paragraphs about DeSantis and zero paragraphs about the multiple polls that show a very large number of Americans self-censor out of fear of the cancel mob. Americans are afraid to speak their minds freely, and it's not because of Ron DeSantis. They are afraid because the woke prog mob is violently unhinged and so far, they haven't found a limit to what they're willing to do to force everyone else to comply.
Also, when "private companies" have departments whose entire job is to collaborate with the FBI and CIA to control "misinformation and disinformation," they're not really private companies anymore. They quasi-government agencies who exploit the technicality that they're "private companies" and can set their own speech policies.
Florida Man Bad?
https://reason.com/2022/09/27/for-florida-gov-ron-desantis-political-stunts-are-more-important-than-substance/ and https://reason.com/2022/09/21/are-ron-desantis-migrant-flights-legal/
Ass POTUS, DeSatan will be forcing USA taxpayers to trick and ferry billions upon brazilians of sub-Brazilians from Brazil to Botswana, and to deport illegal sub-Martians from Mars to Uranus! Ass long ass the illegal Martians SUFFER-SUFFER-SUFFER, red-meat-hungry socons and troglodytes will be DELIGHTED to spend those extra tax dollars! Butt I for one think that illegal Martians are intelligent beings, too, and hope that they will NOT suffer on Uranus, from too many foul odors, etc.!
DeSatan tis of Thee,
Sweet Man of tyranny!
From every mountainside,
You can smell Him for free!
DeLand where de eagles glide!
DeLand where de illegals hide!
DeSatan, tis of Thee I sing,
To the liberals, tears You bring!
You make the proggies cry!
Talk with THEM?! Don’t even try!
DeSatan, tis of Thee I praise!
For the woke, Holy Hell You raise!
Illegal Martians? Low-life scum, You catch and send,
To Uranus with them! Ignore tax dollars You spend!
We must punish ALL, who to USA might sail,
At ALL costs, DeSatanism MUST prevail!
#MeInTheAss’CauseI’maGullibleLowBrowBlowHardConTard
#BeenTrumpledUnderfootForFarTooLong
The going through private companies thing is a similar workaround the free speech/press protections as the government asking a company one has an account with for their personal information is workaround for search and seizure 4th Amendment protections. Reason has not liked those in the past, maybe have changed their minds now.
If it's something weaponized against Trump and his icky supporters, then any violation of the Constitution or our deeply held principles is justified. /Reason
Or DeSantis who, as we all know, is worse than Trump. (Unless Trump gets the Republican nomination, in which case Trump is in fact the worst again and DeSantis is actually a noble and competent statesman)
"Also, when 'private companies' have departments whose entire job is to collaborate with the FBI and CIA to control 'misinformation and disinformation,' they’re not really private companies anymore."
Not so. It entirely depends on whether they are doing so voluntarily and whether there is any government coercion.
Everything the government requests is coercive by the very nature of government.
If you were remotely libertarian you'd know this... hell, you don't have to even be libertarian to know that. Just not authoritarian... actually even authoritarians know that...
I guess you just don't have to be the guy that's actively running cover for censorship to know that.
Let me ask you this, Mike; name ONE time in human history when the group fighting to ban books and censor speech were the good guys.
I’ll wait...
even authoritarians know that
Authoritarians know that and are unabashedly in favor of it.
Private businesses can't exist without a permission slip from the government. There's nothing voluntary about complying with government "requests" when they hold your business hostage.
That argument, even if it were literally true, doesn’t address the case where the company’s management is happily voluntarily coordinating with the government.
And some slave women must have LIKED having sex with massah. And when a pedophile says, "but she WANTED it!", it's likely they're sometimes right.
Hey, Reason, maybe you want to check on this?
Rhetorical question, of course.
We all know Reason is totalitarian globalist trash.
https://twitter.com/FiatFood/status/1636698638821859328?t=WfONsW2zkB92SrIBk6qQEA&s=19
POV two FBI agents show up at your job to talk to you about your twitter posts criticizing Pfizer pharmaceutical corporation. Yes, this actually fucking happened to me yesterday right here in New York State.
[Pic, video in thread]
But but but a state senator proposed a stupid law that literally no one else supported!!!11!!! BOAF SIDEZ!!!11!!!
Maybe include what you said on Twitter about Pfizer? It’s difficult to support you when you provide no context.
The meaning of "you can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater" means, quite simply, that you can't use your speech to endanger others. That is all. It does NOT mean people should be forbidden from saying things that offend you, or that you disagree with, or make you feel sad. Grow up and grow a skin.
Dude, you are so outdated. Don't you know that speech is violence?
Have you not seen experts testify before Congress that merely asking any questions about Transgender policy literally puts lives in danger and causes violence against trans people?
Heck, of 2020 taught us anything it was that we must all speak up against racism.. because not speaking up is racism. Except if you are white, now is not the time to speak. So speaking is racist. And not speaking is racist. And violent.
Either way, just get with the program and shut up. Or speak up. Whatever, just remember that speech is violence, and violence is speech.
It's more than that if you look at the original context where it was used as an argument in favor of criminalizing distributing literature opposing WWI.
I don't typically applaud the Times, but agree that, "Americans are losing hold of a fundamental right…to speak their minds…without fear of being shamed or shunned."
You can go ahead and withhold your applause. The New York Times is as big of a part of the problem they bemoan as any institution out there.
Repetitious but curriculum decisions have jackshit to do with free speech. Curriculum decisions are the correct and appropriate role of government (as long as that government is running schools, which is a separate debate).
Fixed it for you.
No you really didn’t. Governments are in charge of the educational institutions. The people are in charge of the government. There’s a chain of command.
https://reason.com/2023/03/17/christopher-rufo-wants-to-shut-down-activist-academic-departments-heres-why-hes-wrong/
Here's why reason's wrong:
Think It Through has a better idea.
published in the Orange County Register before Stanford & Davis or just ignored Stanford & Davis?
No such right exists. In fact, shaming is absolutely a legitimate free speech response and shunning a legitimate freedom of associciation response to speech. Say stupid shit, get called stupid and be ostracized by those that don't want to associate with your brand of stupid for saying stupid shit. It's kinda like fucking around and finding out.
Free speech does not equal speech without consequences.
The ability to speak without fear of persecution or assault is exactly what freedom of speech is.
Shaming and Shunning are not equal to Persecution or Assault
Shunning is persecution.
Shunning is the exercise of Freedom of Association; choosing not to associate with someone.
You can have persecution of people who say things you disagree with, or you can have a society with freedom of expression. Choose which right you value more.
Got. You're a moron.
Now, I'm'a ridicule and ignore (shun) you for your stupidity.
Feel persecuted? Does it actually curtail your liberties or prevent you from continuing to say stupid shit? Nope.
So, my free speech calling your free speech stupid and moronic, and refusing to associate with you, does nothing to stop your free speech does it?
Vernon, the Constitution does not guarantee that no one will criticize or challenge what you say. Freedom of speech is not what you said it is. The First Amendment to the Constitution says Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I am starting to wonder if concerns about the freedom of speech include a healthy dose of confusion about what freedom of speech is.
shaming is absolutely a legitimate free speech response and shunning a legitimate freedom of associciation response to speech. Say stupid shit, get called stupid and be ostracized by those that don’t want to associate with your brand of stupid for saying stupid shit.
LibsofTikTok agrees.
We seem to have a special brand of idiot here. Antifa?
Free speech does equal speech without consequences from government.
It's the government censorship bit you’re pretending isn’t happening or doesn't matter.
“Politically popular speech has always been protected: even the Jews were free to say ‘Heil Hitler.'” ~ Isaac Asimov
Free speech does equal speech without consequences from government.
It's more than that. Anyone can violate the free speech rights of others. We just have a Constitution that prohibits the government from doing so. It isn't necessarily a crime for a private citizen to do so, but that doesn't mean they aren't violating the rights of others.
That's a good point.
Censoring someone elses legitimate speech is still immoral, even if it's not illegal.
"at least stop trying to censor, shame, shun and destroy each other"
All but a consequence of throwing away the US Constitution for [WE] mob RULERS ideology. "Save our Constitution" not "Save our democracy".
Censorship is currently a bi-partisan effort (though very much so mostly Democrat-Party). The center of the battle has been on WHAT should be censored. That is just wrong all the way through. There should be ZERO legislation/power given the government to control the press.
Americans shouldn't have to fight to the death to defend their foes' right to speak
Fight for your rights first. All three of them.
you have the right to free speech!
As long as
You're not dumb enough
To actually try it!!
I have no problem with DeSantis shutting down LGBTQXYZ123 or CRT propaganda in the class room. None of this crap belongs in children's education. The same goes for teachers with green hair, nose rings and tats declaring their sexual preference to first graders. They should be fired and black listed.
None of this crap belongs in public education. None of it. I applaud DeSantis and his people in the state house for taking a stand against this rubbish.
The job of education is to teach math, science, reading skills, proper english and how to think for themselves. There are too many schools that are failing miserably while at the same time indoctrinating children with gender politics and CRT.
This crapola does not belong in the class room, especially when taxpayers are supporting public education.
Problem —-> taxpayers are supporting commie-education
The problem will never be addressed until the foundation is addressed.
Gov-Gangster-Guns out committing armed-robbery doesn't TEACH.
... but so long as it is done that way; The [WE] Gov-Gangster-Guns will decide what is being taught against *ALL* metrics of economic demand and common-sense. [WE] mobs packing Guns is not the correct way to teach anything and is a barbaric approach.
Once education is required to reflect "The people's" demand instead of [WE] gangs with guns all the issues disappear.
The solution is to take government out of all education, not to try to define truth for the teachers. That would guarantee the never-ending culture wars battling on forever in every public school district in America. All schools and educational institutions should be private, with ZERO taxes going to support them or any students.
And pink unicorns should fly around every classroom scattering knowledge dust on all the kids.
How about keeping the solutions in the realm of possibility?
What is so impossible about actually having a Constitutional USA?
Is this nation so Nazified it would instantly reject any candidate that ran on removing federal funding entirely from education?
Even if it is; the current state of things is unsustainable. Something will give very soon.
"Americans are losing hold of a fundamental right…to speak their minds…without fear of being shamed or shunned."
The Times is simply wrong here, whether Greenhut agrees or not. Americans have never had a fundamental right to speak their minds without fear of being shunned or shamed. The Times and Greenhut have to twist logic and definitions out of all recognition in order to claim that being able to avoid fear is a right. It's almost as subtle - and bad - as two of Norman Rockwell's "Four Freedoms:" freedom from want and fear. No government intervention will ever prevent you from being afraid, and your failure to provide for yourself does not create a duty on the rest of us to supply your wants.
The attacks that have taken place not only during school board meetings but during city government meetings where even journalists are silenced and even losing their license.
That the FBI was sent to terrorize parents who objected to the perversions being taught to young children is a disgrace to America and makes a laughing stock of us all not to mention the FBI and the DOJ, both of whom should be defunded and disbanded.
I can't believe how bad it's become but thanks to Obama and Obiden, this is what we have to deal with.
BINGO… Someone has to direct “Commie-Education”. It’s pure BS that the left has been controlling it and every-time their control of it gets threatened pop-goes-the-weasel out-comes some BS “free speech” claim. As-if anything but leftard control was a “free speech” issue.
Commie systems (i.e. Commie-Education) requires dictation or it isn't Commie at all. The very system behind Commie-Education is the very problems within it.
De Santis is clearly trying to neuter a major problem with this problem of exposing kids to nonsense.
BIG difference from what the entire Democrat apparatus supports which is the outright banning of speech that challenges their orthodoxy and narratives. It is the DEMOCRATS who use the government and its agencies to censor and silence people.
Did you see those three Democrat morons and their counterproductive and idiotic attacks on Taibbi and Shellenberger.
The media is now trying to disingenuously set up De Santis as an Orange Man Bad character.
Orange Man Bad!?!?!
Ask, and ye shall receive wisdom! Knock, and the doors will be opened wide for ye! The pearls will yea verily be cast even unto the swine! Now it is up to YE, having been led to the water, whether ye will DRINK deeply, or if ye will just horse around!
Orange Man bad?!? He BAD, all right! He SOOO BAD, He be GOOD! He be GREAT! He Make America Great Again!
We KNOW He can Make America Great Again, because, as a bad-ass businessman, He Made Himself and His Family Great Again! He Pussy Grabber in Chief!
See The Atlantic article https://feedreader.com/observe/theatlantic.com/politics%252Farchive%252F2016%252F10%252Fdonald-trump-scandals%252F474726%252F%253Futm_source%253Dfeed/+view
“The Many Scandals of Donald Trump: A Cheat Sheet” or this one…
https://reason.com/2019/09/02/republicans-choose-trumpism-over-property-rights-and-the-rule-of-law/
He pussy-grab His creditors in 6 bankruptcies, His illegal sub-human workers ripped off of pay on His building projects, and His “students” in His fake Get-Rich-like-Me realty schools, and so on. So, He has a GREAT record of ripping others off! So SURELY He can rip off other nations, other ethnic groups, etc., in trade wars and border wars, for the benefit of ALL of us!!!
All Hail to THE Pussy Grabber in Chief!!!
Most of all, HAIL the Chief, for having revoked karma! What comes around, will no longer go around!!! The Donald has figured out that all of the un-Americans are SOOO stupid, that we can pussy-grab them all day, every day, and they will NEVER think of pussy-grabbing us right back!
Orange Man Bad-Ass Pussy-Grabber all right!
We CAN grab all the pussy, all the time, and NONE will be smart enough to EVER grab our pussies right back!
These voters simply cannot or will not recognize the central illusion of politics… You can pussy-grab all of the people some of the time, and you can pussy-grab some of the people all of the time, but you cannot pussy-grab all of the people all of the time! Sooner or later, karma catches up, and the others will pussy-grab you right back!
Typical leftard; rambling 1st grader BS talk and no point to be found.
I’m surprised that you were not able to understand the point being made. You may not agree but the post raises significant issues and some of them bear directly on freedom of speech. The use of humor to make a point is or can be an effective way to engage in the freedom of speech and has a long history in America. The comment used humor (at least an attempt at humor) to mock Trump, but in many respects Trump is one of the sad poster children of the debate over the limits of the freedom of speech. He personifies the kind of self serving demagogue we were warned about by the founders. He lacks the personal integrity to be even remotely honest in his pursuit of power and wealth - to such an extraordinary extent that he may have even broken the law. But you dismiss the comment, refusing to engage on the issues raised. Are you defending the abuse of free speech by Trump or are the issues just too uncomfortable to address when they involve someone who you support?
Well, finally an attempt at a humorous take on the issues surrounding freedom of speech! You are part of a long history of using humor to make people think about issues that are difficult and uncomfortable!
“The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink.“ George Orwell
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America’s Losing Its Free Speech Consensus
It is amazing how closely that lose or Free Speech aligns with the Obama and Biden Presidents and the rise of the woke liberals.
Freedom of speech, cancel culture, as I reread the article and comments I am struck by a few disturbing themes that lead me to two observations. First, there seems to be a desperate longing by many to be heard and accepted. They want, expect, desire what they say to be accepted as validation of themselves. At some level we all have this need for acceptance and community, it’s not a political thing, it’s a human thing. Some Americans seem to have come to believe that the exercise of their freedom of speech puts what they say beyond reproach, that they can say anything, lie, mislead, endorse racism, or criticize the distribution of wealth without response from other Americans. When the response comes, when they are called out for their lies or racism or being woke snowflakes, when they face the consequences of their words, do not get the validation that they crave, what do they do? Left or right, woke or not, these Americans lash out at those who reject their ideas and scream that they’re subject to cancel culture or that those who disagree are fascists. Freedom of speech has consequences. The founders knew this. For the most part, they were thoughtful and deliberate with their speech. For the most part, even when their ideas were rejected, they had the courage and character to stay engaged to move the country forward. And, that brings me to the second observation, that freedom of speech for many still has a sense of duty and honor, the responsibility to speak up for what you believe is right knowing full well that what you say will be attacked, taking the time to build their message with care, with respect for truth is central to the freedom to speak. These Americans can have the spirited debate that the author and many commentators call for because they have the courage, maturity, and confidence in themselves to do so. One of these paths leads to petty divisions, chaos, and perhaps the failure of the American experiment, the other back to a better and freer country. The choice is not between freedom of speech or not, the choice is about what kind of American we each choose to be and what kind of American we aspire to be.
It’s not merely academic.
In many nations speaking truth can be a crime. There can be no justice then.
This is spreading throughout our society. At work, in school, in town squares and socially.
The corrupt aren’t going to change becoming altruistic because of logic or science. Their selfish behaviour is already irrational.
We need a law to encourage their honesty. Criminalize lying.
A Ministry of Truth? No thank you!
Liars piss their pants at the thought.
Truth does not need Gov-Guns. Lies require Gov-Guns to ensure conformance against all open-evidence to the contrary. As if the recent Twitter episode didn't establish that one.
Maybe some “gov guns” could have prevented that “Twitter episode” had there been a law criminalizing lying.
It’s true. I am well over 60, and have championed free speech my entire life. Now I realize it was a mistake. Democrats, along with every other flavor of totalitarians, have no legitimate right to public discourse whatsoever and should be silenced. You cannot have a free FUNCTIONAL society so long as the forces of totalitarianism are free to “organize.”
Rob and Jonathan,
Just to level set, I am a liberal. I suspect that many Democrats look across the aisle and see much of what Johnathan sees in Democrats. Forbidding speech based on political view was exactly what the First Amendment was intended to prevent. I am dismayed by Johnathan’s proposal since it is clearly un-American. That said, I have, at times felt such outrage at something I heard from numerous points on the political spectrum that I can understand why you might want to simply science them all. It is a terrible idea and despite my understanding, it has to be rejected. Rob’s idea is also attractive in some respects. There is a chance that a law could be drafted that would pass Constitutional issues (and after 7 years of what seem like constant lies from a darling of the right there are times when it sounds very attractive). If limits were placed on the most egregious abuses of the truth
Oops - not sure how that posted…
… truth, it would be contentious to try and determine when speech crossed a line. While I personally think that politicians should be held to a higher standard, depending on their positions not on lies to win elections, I don’t know how to legislate this into existence. As much as it pains me to say this, I see little way forward other than Americans of all political views being willing to call out the liars, to speak out against bad ideas, to stand for responsible speech, and to vote against politicians who use lies, obstruction, and division to gain and hold power. If you want freedom of speech, use it wisely.
“I don’t know how to legislate this into existence”
That’s because you’re not listening, criminalize lying.
Can you explain why you want to lie?
Ron, jumping from me questioning the practicality of your idea to me wanting to lie is just silly and there is no point in taking the bait. I completely understand the intuitive emotional appeal of your idea. But we are a nation of laws and if you can’t turn an idea into law that can be enforced then you are abandoning a fundamental principle of government. I sometimes reluctantly have concluded that some of the freedoms we Americans enjoy must be exercised responsibly by individuals. If I make false claims, such as vaccines contain microchips that allow Bill Gates to control minds (before anyone goes off half cocked I am using this as an example of a false claim), the others in the public square should demand my proof and shout me down. That is not cancel culture, that is how Americans deal with people who spread lies. I am arguing for the kind of free speech envisioned by the founders. And, as I have said, there may be opportunities to legislate on some of the most egregious abuses of free speech. However, since I do not think I have workable legislation I have asked what you and others recommend. I assume that you are fully aware of the difference between an attractive idea and good legislation - the former is simple and easy to understand and the latter is really difficult.
Neither you or I are solely responsible to develop all the details, others are paid to do that. As citizens we just need to demand what can and should be done.
It’s because you are skating between saying criminalizing lying is necessary and practically impossible that I question if you have another personal reason to keep lying legal.
Perjury and fraud are enforced.
What makes you think that criminalizing lying couldn’t be?
Well, for starters, there’s that pesky speech and debate clause in the constitution that protects some of the worst liars (you know, the people paid to legislate) I am not defending lying just like I am not defending choosing not to vote. I would not lightly support a law that required voting. I don’t lightly support a law against all lying. I can tell that neither of us endorses lying. You want to legislate honesty and I am calling for personal integrity. Without personal integrity and the discipline to be honest, your law may be unenforceable (depending of course on what the actual scope of what you are proposing). For example outlawing all lying is very different than outlawing lying that induces others to harm (something like false advertising). I really want to know what the details of your proposal are. I am not completely satisfied with my position and if you have a way to improve on what the founders depended on, I won’t just listen, if you persuade me I will get on board your bandwagon!
Nowhere does any clause protect anyone from criminal prosecution for lying, perjury or fraud.
Nobody is asking you to “lightly” support anything. I’m just trying to determine which side of the fence you’ll wind up on. You aren’t making it easy.
I have no reason to believe that you value truth.
What makes you believe that enforcing a law against lying in general is any more difficult than enforcing one where the harm is quantified financially?
Can you financially quantify the value of your freedom, agency? Would you have as much difficulty supporting a law that criminalizes the removal of them?
It’s easy to improve the constitution using technology that the founders couldn’t have imagined.
To enforce the criminalization of lying one simply needs to demonstrate that a statement of fact was made that cannot be proven to determine that a lie was told.
You and I are communicating with personal digital recording devices right now. With microchip technology today we can effortlessly record all our memories and store them in the cloud. There is no longer any excuse not to have irrefutable proof of whatever we can witness. The founders couldn’t have imagined this possibility.
We can ask unambiguous questions and simply trust people and elect politicians who answer them and state facts without being convicted of lying.
First, the speech and debate clause makes at least the speech in session protected. But let me go to one of the most contentious examples from recent history. Some have claimed that Covid vaccines are unsafe and ineffective, others have claimed the opposite. From my perspective the truth, based on available information is that they are safe and effective. But, to make this claim, I have to define my terms - how safe is safe and how effective is effective. It is not a lie in that context but I suspect that many would, from their perspective, demand my prosecution. Others have claimed that a horse dewormer cures Covid. The evidence proves that this is false but they believe that they are telling the truth. I might demand their prosecution. Delivering all speech into the courts does not seem to me a way to ensure freedom of speech. And it is hardly what the founders intended. The fact that someone as liberal as I am is trying to make this case, that a healthy dose of personal honor and integrity is not as odd as it might seem at first glance. Liberals and conservatives have much in common. They have different ideas about how to achieve hopefully common goals. Hearing that you propose government reach into every aspect of life, with no privacy, no ability to claim the fifth is a tyranny so complete and un-American that I cannot support it.
Your perspective is based on misinformation, faulty logic and naturally as a result your conclusions are uninformed and poor.
You’ll never make a good decision that way.
Firstly, statements made in session are protected from civil not criminal prosecution.
Stating that to the best of your knowledge something is safe, when unbeknownst to you it isn’t, isn’t a lie. Simply stating that it was safe would be.
Do you understand that perhaps the greatest change resulting from the criminalization of lying will be people who can’t prove the truth simply admitting that they don’t know, then talking in probabilities that they can demonstrate.
That’s all honesty requires.
By the way, nobody is forcing you to make any claims in the first place.
Criminalizing lying just requires you to prove the ones you do make or be found guilty.
It’s called being responsible and accountable for your own actions.
I get it that you don’t support that.
Rob, we have apparently gone as deep as the system will track. The congressional website on the Constitution says you are wrong about protections for only civil action (see https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI-S6-C1-3-1/ALDE_00013300/)
As for the rest of your comment, I am confused. First you seem to be advocating personal responsibility and suggesting that I don’t. Please follow your own advice and reread what I have written before you spout such silliness. Second, i am no longer at all clear what you would define as a lie. You seem to have created such encompassing exceptions that the notion of what would constitute a lie is unclear.
If you have a good idea I can tell you that you have to develop it further before you get your Senators’, or Representative’s attention. I think there might be something to your idea or I would not bother replying.
Since you’re committed to your idea, after you define your terms, who will be responsible for determining that a crime has occurred, investigate, bring charges, prosecute the cases, and what would the consequences be (fines, imprisonment, etc.).
Oh, and if you’re going to attack my perspective with insults, a) you made me smile, b) come on, go big or go home (still smiling), and c) do your homework and make it stick (because I’m tired of explaining to my family why I’m laughing).
I’m sure your family is used to you alternating between grinning and grimacing in front of your computer.
“shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony, and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest ”
Perjury is a felony. Is that a grimace?
I don’t know if I can help you with your confusion, but I’ll try my best.
You said that you don’t want to be held accountable for stating as fact that which cannot be proven , aka lying. Criminalizing lying being what holds you accountable.
Are you still confused?
But it does need to be developed further.
That’s why I put it out here and elsewhere. To make it visible and generate healthy debate. It’s a labour of love.
Check out the congressional website- the Supreme Court has already ruled on this clause and you won’t like it
It occurs to me that if Americans started voting for politicians, who did not lie and demanding their removal from office if they lied excessively once they were in office that the tone might be going to change in Washington and around the country. While this would not require legislation it might be an idea that conservatives, independents, and liberals could come to some kind of consensus about. We get the representation that we deserve based on who we vote into office. This was certainly true in the years leading up to the Civil War, and is vividly illustrated in the book The Field of Blood: Violence in Congress and the Road to Civil War. Let’s hope that we can learn from history, and not repeat the mistakes of the past.
Even though we don’t agree on some (okay many) things, I’m encouraged that there are other Americans concerned about the state of the public debate and how it can be improved.
Have a great week!
You don’t have to remind me that there is too much lying in society.
The Supreme Court has ruled on abortion and over 60 million helpless innocent US citizens were murdered by choice by their mothers using an industry dedicated to it.
Lying benefits the corrupt interests of liars. Politicians don’t want to stop lying.
The total of our democratic opportunity boils down to one vote every 4 years. The various parties threaten all aspects of our lives.
What citizen is going to ignore all the other issues and vote myopically on one issue, lying?
Your suggestion has never worked and has significantly less potential of working than mine, criminalizing lying does.
I asked you before if you could explain why you want to lie.
You took offence but the question remains. Do you want to stop lying or not?
Gun control advocates want to ban guns for a slight reduction in crime. Responsible gun owners can oppose that agenda by listing many good reasons why they should own guns without ever referencing the constitution. Can liars?
I effectively want to ban lying. You don’t.
So, why do you want to lie?
His "bandwagon" is a cattle car to a death camp.
Laws against lying are already passed in court and commerce called perjury and fraud.
They aren’t unconstitutional are they?
Laws against perjury are on shaky ground constitutionally. In most cases, people charged with perjury had the option of saying nothing, so it could be argued that their perjury constituted intentional fraud. In other cases where their testimony is compelled, an argument could be made that their constitutional rights are being violated.
Until perjury and fraud are struck down as unconstitutional, the precedent to criminalize lying is set.
Fair point, how should it be policed and tried? When should any lie rise to the level that requires prosecution? How should the law be enforced so that it was not unfair to Republicans, Democrats, habitual liars, broadly any one group (but what if, as some studies indicate, conservatives lie more than liberals - should they be prosecuted more often than liberals given that both groups lie). If I were to lie on this discussion board, would reason be required to turn me in? Would citizens be able to sue? If so, how would damages be assessed? Even if this concept is sound in some special cases, it seems to have enormous operational issues. But, I’m listening, show me how your idea can work.
There are precedents of perjury and fraud to start with.
I think the details of punishment criminal records and impact on employment deserve further discussion.
The point is that we agree lying can and should be criminalized. The details of sentencing don’t change that. Do they?
Perjury and fraud are the special cases of lying that are set in precedent as criminal (although, as I said, the reasoning behind that is not unassailable). To say that precedent opens the door to all lying being subject to criminal sanction is like saying, "since rape is illegal, the precedent to outlaw sex is set."
Yours is a faulty analogy.
Rape is non-consensual sex which is illegal.
Yes. And perjury and fraud are particular types of lying that are illegal. Is this too complicated for you?
Not at all.
It’s perfectly clear that you just agreed with me.
Hahaha
I'll take that as a yes.
Speech isn't a threat. They can't be totalitarians if they don't get totalitarian Gov-Gun Power. The Supreme Law forbids totalitarian use of the Gov-Guns. The nation must stop championing "save our Democracy" and start championing "save our US Constitution". The USA is NOT a democracy.
... In case you're missing the big picture here;
Democrats are using their FALSE-premise/foundational-ideology of [WE]-mob-acracy to try and conquer and consume (i.e. rewrite) what the USA was into a [Na]tional So[zi]alist totalitarian government.
Just read the party platforms. Democrats entire agenda is [WE] mobsters RULES!!! (Dictative/Authoritarian model). They don't even mention a Constitutional Union of Republican States.
I think you are misreading and misunderstanding the Democratic Party Platform. There are planks in the platform that I disagree with but it is not the document you describe. I looked at your concerns about the use of the word ‘we”. They do use the term when stating their agenda (like “we support…”). In the spirit of the application of freedom of speech and a healthy exchange of ideas, could you be more specific about what you think those Democrats are wrong about and what you think a better alternative would be? I really wanted to contrast the Democratic and Republican platforms but when I tried I found that the Republican platform does not exist (links on the Republican Party’s website just lead to requests for contributions or to the party’s rules). I may not like things in the Democratic platform but at least I know where they stand. Beyond a few sentences that don’t go into specifics, what do Republicans say their position is and since they are (as a party) silent, why exactly should I support them? Should I assume that the position of Republicans is the disturbingly anti free speech and free press positions taken by individuals like Trump and DeSantis? If so, then I think you need to rethink who you are calling totalitarian.
“Speech isn’t a threat.”
Wrong. Threats are speech.
Using 'Guns' to defeat a threat that has no actionable ('Guns') means to fulfill that threat isn't Defense but Aggression and becomes far more of the threat than the counter-threat.
It's not correct to bring a 'Gun' to a word battle; which the left is doing constantly and compulsively to ensure their BS dogma.
Are you advocating that everyone should be able to lie to everyone about everything or that there should be no punishment for non violent crimes?
The phrase "Non-violent crimes" is a contradiction in terms, since crimes are acts against the Life, Liberty, and Property of another...or do you understand that, Mister Aryan Pure Superman?
Fuck Off, Nazi!
It requires rational not superhuman behaviour to recognize that dictionaries are the accepted reference for the meaning of words.
Violent is defined as the use of physical force to hurt, injure or kill.
Crime is the action or omission which is an offence punishable by law.
Isn’t it time for your medication?
nd the sole legitimate purpose of law is to protect Life, Liberty, and Property. And I don't require meds to understand that or anything else.
Your asserting that I need meds without evidence is an untruth. Willfully stated, that is a lie.
Turn yourself over to yourself and Fuck Off, Nazi!
Not all speech is a threat...unless it is speech threatening irrational dogma, and that is not threat against persons, much as your ilk try to Outlaw speech against your dogma anyway.
Fuck Off, Nazi!
Nobody said that all speech was a threat.
You imagined it.
It’s almost likethey really want to be able to fuck children.Just preemptive mocking of retarded crybabies who complain and bitch and moan and cry and whine about how Reason is sooooooo mean to poor, poor, innocent Republicans.
You know, people like you.
R Mac, your awesome persuasive powers are going to WASTE! Read the below, and get GOING!!!
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
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Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
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Thank You! -Reason Staff
You mean like when we call out reference to a 'bipartisan' bill that has 208 Democrat sponsors and 1 Republican?
Nobody is stupid enough to actually believe that the FBI and the CIA directing every social media platform and every corporate media company on who to silence is a diminemus issue while some dude in the back of the Florida legislature issuing a press release about bloggers is a major threat to free speech.
Nobody.
There are no partisan blinders narrow enough to make that mental leap.
You cannot write an article about rising opposition to free speech and fail to mention the lockstep (and unhinged) attack on Matt Taibbi and Michael Shellenberger for reporting about coordinated government programs to silence critics of The Party, while highlighting that guy in the Florida legislature. Dude didn't even get a single cosponsor. Meanwhile, the censorship regime has $35 million bucks and 85 agents, just in the FBI.
And pretending that they are reasonable and honest is almost as stupid as writing the article that way in the first place.
Directly, as a funder of the Stanford Institute Observatory's "Election Integrity Partnership", one of the key players in the current censorship regime. They have a direct line to every social media platform and major corporate media company, telling them what they can and cannot say.
So perhaps Reason's curious indifference to a massive federal censorship program is not so inscutible after all....
I'm not shrike, as you should know by now, but 2A doesn't say anything about shooting, only about KBA, though now you mention it weaponised anthrax and suitcase nukes are both arms, but even the most diehard defender of am expansive reading of 2A would not, I think, regard them as included.
“You cannot write an article about ... and fail to mention…”
That’s where my eyes glaze over because anything that follows is bull.
I take those attacks on Taibbi and Shellenberger as a kind of proof, they were both over the target. Neither should be ashamed of what they accomplished and I hope they aren't.
The liberals head's exploded as ample proof of the reactions of the democrats in congress.
Just as they did when Tucker Carlson released the videos of the Jan. 6 protest.
More liberal heads exploded.
Your personal feelings don't negate the fact that bipartisan actually means having sponsors from both parties, and the word doesn't care about the numbers from each side.
Bullshit. 'bipartisan' used to mean 'generally agreed upon by both parties'
Now it means 'any time the dems convince a single sucker from the other side'. But it never works the other direction.
When Sinema and Manchin (D) opposed democrat party objectives, along with every single Republican, was that described as 'bipartisan' opposition? I can tell you it was not. The Narrative line was '2 people should not be able to hold up the Majority! That's holding Democracy hostage!' Like the other 50 people opposed didn't even fucking exist.
I'm glad you've got the narrative straight. If I had the energy I'm sure I could find plenty from Reason applauding Manchin for standing up to his party. But it wouldn't matter. The narrative is more important.
People need to take a step back from their individual agendas and look objectively at speech.
Making free speech an inalienable right the founders recognized the purpose of speech.
To communicate reality and advance the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.
Corrupt people use speech to coerce others by compelling them with the false authority of truth to act in the liars interest instead of their own.
Lying isn’t the purpose of speech. It’s not what the founders protected with the constitution.
Just like the second amendment doesn’t protect irresponsible gun use.
Absolutism is irrational. Using something good to do evil doesn’t make evil good.
Criminalize all lying, like it already necessarily is in court and commerce and make doing anything corrupt significantly more difficult and risky.
Oh look, a Nazi wants to criminalize basically all speech. Who would have thought?!
Yes, because my takeaway from the last three years is that the federal government is a fair, objective, accurate, nonbiased, nonpartisan, even-handed arbiter of truth versus falsity.
Well, you would have to arrest 95% of all those working inside the Beltway. Then gather up the another 95% working in the main stream media.
How about we start with Anthony Fauci? Then Wolenski. How about Cuomo and Whitmer? Joe Biden....wanna charge him with lying? Sounds good to me.
The of course there's Jusse Smollette and George Santos.
And don't forget, anyone who declares a man can become a woman and get pregnant and have children. Or that a woman can become a man.
Lots of lies and the lying liars who tel them. Bu they're still free to embarrass themselves.
So speech can't be used to communicate fiction stories?
So you're like Plato wanting to ban art in his Totalitarian ideal Republic?
I guess Ben Franklin's porn collection is out of the question, huh?
Fuck Off, Nazi!
I’ll bet we could get most of the benefits without forbidding all lying but your point is still valid. Freedom, any freedom without limits devolves to chaos. The argument that we collectively must protect everyone’s right to lie, mislead, cheat, and harm each other sounds and is crazy. The point of free speech is to prevent the abuses of government that the founders were well aware had occurred in the UK and other countries. Imprisoning people for speaking the truth when the truth puts the government in a bad light is a vital right. The freedom to lie to our neighbors to harm them (or for politicians to make false and misleading claims) should not be seen as a right and should not enjoy absolute protections. Whenever, Americans have lost the self discipline to self regulate their speech, to hold to reasonable standards based on their own integrity the nation has suffered for it.
One third of the founders were Freemasons, Satan worshipping secret pyramid scheme society members.
Lies require secrets and secrets require lies.
Criminalizing lying has the added benefit of fucking freemasonry.
Lying implies an intent to mislead. There are laws against certain kind of lying, such as perjury, but the vast majority of people who perjure themselves are never charged because (a) it is difficult to prove that false testimony is deliberate, and (b) it would be a total drag on the court system. "Lying" such as false advertising is a species of fraud (using deception to get somebody to give something up) and a civil matter in the United States, not a criminal matter.
Criminal laws against lying not only invites thought policing, but makes government officials the arbiters of all truth, and it almost certainly would be subject to abuse through selective enforcement. Even if securing the right to disinform was not the intent of the framers with the 1A, "original intent" is a boneheaded simpleton's approach to Constitutional interpretation. There are plenty of practical reasons for the law to tolerate most instances of lying.
“The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink.“ George Orwell
Your tired meme is like the ink from another slimy invertebrate.
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What meme? You're a literal Nazi and your proposed policy of making lying illegal effectively criminalizes most speech.
I know you really struggle with logic, but this is about as straight forward as it gets.
You can’t refute anything I say, so you call me a Nazi. You’re lying again Kol Nidre boy.
You’ve demonstrated time and again that you don’t prove your claims.
When challenged to you run away like a coward.
Prove it for once in your miserable life.
Actually, everything you claim about the Holocaust has been massively refuted. You just pretend otherwise because you have to cover for your Nazi friends because you are a disgusting piece of shit Nazi.
And well done defending your Nazi desire to basically criminalize all speech. Another bang up job from moron central.
Everything you spew has been refuted tens of thousands of times, Misek.
You just refuse to acknowledged it because you're an evil, lying, piece-of-shit.
None of you lying wastes of skin are, or ever have been, up to the task of proving what you claim or refuting what you deny. When challenged to, you run away like the cowards you are.
Here’s the challenge. Prove it. Demonstrate that anything I’ve said has been refuted.
If you don’t, it proves that you can’t and never have.
No one runs away. We explain how wrong you are and tell you to go read the countless numbers of books and truckloads full of documents and pieces describing in great detail the atrocities of the Holocaust. We tell you to read all the first hand accounts, even from Germans and Nazi soldiers, and you just claim that all of it is part of one big lie.
You are the one who runs away from actual information and would rather cite snippets of information from conspiracy theorists who aren't brave enough to simply come out and say they are actually cool with what the Nazis did to the Jews.
You comprise the lowest form of human life that inhabits this planet.
You’re running away now.
You haven’t proved that anything I’ve said has been refuted like you claimed.
If you admit that you haven’t and that you can’t, THEN you won’t be running away.
So what would you do to bridge the gap between real and declared aims? Face-fitted cages with rats in them?
That only bridged the gap between Winston Smith's aims and O'Brien's aims and ultimately Big Brother's aims. And it made the answer to "2+2" whatever the torturer wanted.
Not a very effective or copacetic means of getting at the truth, huh?
Fuck Off, Nazi!
I’ll demonstrate at the expense of your dumb ass.
Prove your claim that I’m a Nazi. You can’t.
You’re a lying waste of skin Kol Nidre boy.
you cant legislate sincerity you cant legislate truth…
its like trying to define art or beauty the grossly simple tools of government and laws are not designed for, nor are they capable of dealing with any of that in the way you’d like
beware what you wish for
Ever heard of perjury and fraud?
You know when you can’t prove what you’re claiming as fact.
When it’s criminalized, people who are too stupid to know when they’re lying will learn to shut the fuck up.
Won’t that be nice?
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Some of us don't like letting biased partisans run rough-shod over our linguistic traditions by distorting the meanings of terms.
Next week, maybe we can cover 'debunked', which also used to mean something other than how it's used by today's media.
P.S. You can read my above prior posts and notice that I was not criticizing Reason specifically. So you don't need to white knight for them this time, Sancho.
Why would they be?
Their honesty will improve when lying is criminalized.
They're probably glazing over from too many 40s before noon.
Unless they stop lying.
That’s kinda the point.
The reactions are what are important here. Those who push "the narrative" are the ones screaming and howling the loudest, wanting the heads of Taibbi, Shellenberger, and Carlson (odd to write all three of those in the same sentence, but there it is). It's like they all managed to hit the hornets' nest perfectly.
Exactly, Nazi fuck wants to criminalize all speech he believes is "false."
It's fantastic how much set forth your real beliefs without realizing it.
Lies demonstrated by correctly applied logic and science are falsehoods that should be criminalized.
Yes lying cowards like you will piss your pants at the thought.
Yes, your Nazi-ass wants to criminalize those things you believe are "lies." Just like your Fuhrer. You don't have to keep demonstrating how big of a Nazi piece of shit you are. We all know.
You can’t distinguish between reality and belief.
You’re insane.
I'm not the one who is denying the most documented genocide in history you Nazi pile of filth.
You’re denying what you can’t refute.
I deny what I have refuted.
And likewise, the 1A doesn't say anything about punishment for causing harm to others with speech, only about speech itself.
So? So then does that mean that posters who post child porn, or ads for murder for hire, should NOT be punished or thwarted in ANY way?
Or it could just be called fiction.
Are you really that stupid?
We’re just able to communicate more now than ever before in history and the harm and repercussions of lying that much greater.
Criminalize lying and we’ll get along fine, great actually, without it.
As others and myself have tried to tell Herr Misek, not every lie is the anti-Libertarian act of fraud, such as those used to conceal surprise parties or those humorously used in fishing boat rituals...or those used to keep a young girl and her family in an attic safe from genocidal extermination.
In case you're new here and don't know, Herr Misek is an Antisemitic Holocaust Denier, which puts him in no position to pontificate about truth and lies. A great source of derisive entertainment, but not a source of credibility.
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You just said the purpose of speech was:
To communicate reality and advance the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness.
So how is fiction communicating reality?
What does your proported “Logic” have to say about that?
And, again, what about Ben Franklin’s porn collection? He was a Founding Father!
Fuck Off, Nazi!
You really are that stupid.
The purpose of fiction is entertainment.
But the Totalitarian Plato would say that entertainment distracts the citizenry of his ideal Republic from contemplating the Forms which are the true Reality of things, and thus must be banned.
And the Nazis admired Plato, so they wouldn't want entertainment either. And if it's not literal truth as you arbitrarily dictate, you want it outlawed too.
Dummy!
Sanford Dummy Reel
https://youtu.be/moYdbNXBwvk
Fuck Off, Nazi!
Yet you were waxing rhapsodic about the Founders in your first post!
So are you prevaricating about the Founders or about your position on Freemasons?
Are these guys below the "Satan worshipping secret pyramid scheming society members?". They don't look terribly evil to me!
🙂
Ray Stevens - "Shriner's Convention" (Music Video) [from Get Serious]
https://youtu.be/VvQBjJrwJCI
Turn yourself into yourself for lying and Fuck Off, Nazi!
You are a demonstrated liar who has also never refuted anything that I’ve said and has never proven your claims that I am either a Nazi or a liar.
Think about that.
Prove it. Hahaha.
even if the harms and repercussions are greater – its not because of the lies themselve – but the combination of the reach and the command and control systems in place to make sure only one kind of lie is allowed.
always goes back to the saying – fight bad speech with more speech.
regardless of whether the reach of rebuttals are unencumbered (a situation that is effectively not extant ) people should be able to ‘lie’. work towards uncorrupting way speech is 'allowed'
who is going to look into that black box of the mind and determine the line between opinion and lies? you? your enemy?
What you fail to recognize is that lying must be stopped by civilized forces before knowledge can proceed. This is the foundation of the concept of excellence.
Without a governing body, which I call science and logic, to discern truth from lies, people will never know all the truths required for a civilization based on justice.
When people lie, coercing others to make decisions not on reality but the selfish interests of the liar. The lie isn’t discovered until too late for the coerced, if at all.
The holocaust lie, perhaps the biggest lie in earths history is maintained by criminalizing truth, lying to generations and demanding acceptance of a story that can be easily refuted as I have shown.
Everything in civilization that you take for granted has been developed from the science and logic of shared truth.
Lies obfuscate this process of discerning knowledge.
Discerning reality aka truth isn’t a mysterious magical black box. It comes from dedication and discipline to the civilized principles of logic and science.
Without a governing body to demand adherence to the principles that discern truth scientists and philosophers become nothing more than shills furthering other agendas. Like journalists have become.
We need to criminalize lying to give that governing body the teeth it needs to further knowledge in this age of unprecedented communication.
Lying coerces by compelling people using the false authority of truth to act in the liars interest instead of their own. Liars use it to initiate harm against people.
It should be criminalized. We don’t ignore crime because it’s difficult to enforce. People put their lives on the line every day doing just that.
Responsible gun owners can list many good reasons for gun ownership to oppose banning guns without ever referring to the constitution.
Why do you want to lie?
Criminalizing lying doesn’t assume your guilt. It just requires that you can prove what you claim as fact. If you can’t prove something simply admit you don’t know and you can say whatever. Nobody will give a shit.
If you have the courage to step up with an argument you should do so on a more recent article.
By the time they’re a week old most people stop looking at them.
Just saying