Conservatives Who Want To Weaken Defamation Standards May Regret Opening That Can of Worms
Contrary to the Supreme Court's First Amendment precedents, Donald Trump thinks harsh criticism of the president should be actionable.

Last October, former President Donald Trump sued CNN (again) for defamation. Among other things, Trump argues that the news channel defamed him by describing his claim that Joe Biden stole the 2020 presidential election as "the 'Big Lie,' a concept tied to Adolf Hitler." Trump thinks his lawsuit is the "perfect vehicle" for reconsidering Supreme Court precedents that make it difficult for public figures to win compensation for injury to their reputations.
Fox News, meanwhile, is counting on those precedents to protect it from liability for promoting the "Big Lie," which implicated Dominion Voting Systems in a "massive fraud" that supposedly denied Trump a second term. Fox argues that Dominion cannot meet the "actual malice" test that the Supreme Court established in the 1964 case New York Times v. Sullivan, which requires proof that Fox either knowingly or recklessly aired false allegations against the company.
As that contrast vividly illustrates, the standard established by Sullivan and extended by subsequent cases cuts both ways even as applied to a very specific category of speech. It is an obstacle for Dominion, which objected to Fox's amplification of Trump's claim that the company helped Biden steal the election, and it is an obstacle for Trump, who objected to CNN's characterization of that claim.
To put it another way, Fox News and CNN both have reason to be thankful for the protection provided by Sullivan and its progeny, which applies regardless of which way a news source leans. Revisiting those precedents therefore poses a threat to speakers across the political spectrum. It is a can of worms that conservatives may regret opening.
Sullivan involved a full-page New York Times ad titled "Heed Their Rising Voices" that condemned "an unprecedented wave of terror" against civil rights activists in the South. That "wave of terror," it said, included conduct by police, school officials, and private actors such as the would-be assassins who had bombed Martin Luther King Jr.'s home in Montgomery, Alabama. "Again and again," the ad complained, "the Southern violators have answered Dr. King's peaceful protests with intimidation and violence."
While the gist of that complaint was undoubtedly valid, the ad included several inaccuracies and exaggerations. Montgomery Police Commissioner L.B. Sullivan, who was not mentioned in the ad but argued that he had been impugned by implication, sued the signatories and the Times for defamation and won a damage award of $500,000 (about $4.8 million in current dollars), a verdict that was upheld by the Alabama Supreme Court. The U.S. Supreme Court unanimously overturned that judgment, concluding that Alabama's defamation rules were inconsistent with the First and 14th amendments.
The majority held that the First Amendment requires "a federal rule that prohibits a public official from recovering damages for a defamatory falsehood relating to his official conduct unless he proves that the statement was made with 'actual malice'— that is, with knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not." That rule was necessary, the Court said, to protect freedom of speech and the press from the "chilling effect" of a less demanding standard.
"Debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open," the Court said, and "it may well include vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials." It may also include errors. "Erroneous statement is inevitable in free debate," the majority said, and "it must be protected if the freedoms of expression are to have the 'breathing space' that they 'need…to survive.'" When people criticize government officials, the justices said, "a defense for erroneous statements honestly made" is "essential."
Three concurring justices thought that defense did not go far enough. As Justice Hugo Black saw it, the First and 14th amendments "completely prohibit" a state from awarding damages to "public officials against critics of their official conduct." Justice Arthur Goldberg agreed that "the Constitution affords greater protection than that provided by the Court's standard to citizen and press in exercising the right of public criticism." Justice William O. Douglas joined both of those concurring opinions.
The Court later extended the actual malice standard to defamation cases involving "public figures," including people who "thrust themselves to the forefront of particular public controversies in order to influence the resolution of the issues involved." It also said a plaintiff must show that the defendant "entertained serious doubts" about the truth of his statement.
Trump, a promiscuous plaintiff, does not like the implications of these decisions. While running for president in 2016, he famously promised to "open up those libel laws" so that aggrieved public figures like him could sue irksome critics and "win money instead of having no chance." After Trump took office, he downgraded his vow to a suggestion, possibly because someone informed him that presidents have no power to change the state laws and judicial precedents that govern defamation claims. It might be time, he tweeted, to "change libel laws" in light of his perception that journalists had "gotten me wrong."
Another Republican politician, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, is more specific about the changes he'd like to see. As Reason's Emma Camp noted last month, DeSantis supports a Florida bill that would "narrow the definition of a public figure by excluding persons whose notoriety arises solely from 'defending himself or herself publicly against an accusation,' giving an interview on a subject, public employment (other than elected or appointed office), or 'a video, an image, or a statement uploaded on the Internet that has reached a broad audience.'"
Even in cases involving a government official, the bill says, the actual malice standard does not apply "when the allegation does not relate to the reason for his or her public status." It adds that "an allegation that the plaintiff has discriminated against another person or group because of their race, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity constitutes defamation per se." When journalists use anonymous sources, the bill says, the information is "presumptively false" and "plaintiffs need only prove that the defendant acted negligently," rather than recklessly, in relying on it.
DeSantis presumably hopes that bill will ultimately give the Supreme Court an opportunity to reconsider what it has said about the limits that the First Amendment imposes on defamation law. Several justices, to varying degrees, might be open to that. Justice Clarence Thomas has questioned the legitimacy of Sullivan itself, while Justice Neil Gorsuch worries that the current rules are ill-suited to a situation where, thanks to the internet, "virtually anyone in this country can publish virtually anything for immediate consumption virtually anywhere in the world," without the benefit of editors or fact checkers.
"In 1964, the Court may have seen the actual malice standard as necessary 'to ensure that dissenting or critical voices are not crowded out of public debate,'" Gorsuch wrote in 2021 when the Court declined to hear a defamation case. "But if that justification had force in a world with comparatively few platforms for speech, it's less obvious what force it has in a world in which everyone carries a soapbox in their hands."
Even before that world had fully materialized, Justice Elena Kagan had qualms about the obstacles that the Supreme Court had erected for defamation plaintiffs. "Not all such suits look like Sullivan, and the use of the actual malice standard in even this limited category of cases often imposes serious costs: to reputation, of course, but also, at least potentially, to the nature and quality of public discourse," Kagan, then a University of Chicago law professor, wrote in a 1993 review of Anthony Lewis' book Make No Law: The Sullivan Case and the First Amendment. "The adverse consequences of the actual malice rule do not prove Sullivan itself wrong, but they do force consideration of the question whether the Court, in subsequent decisions, has extended the Sullivan principle too far."
University of Tennessee law professor Glenn Harlan Reynolds seems to agree that the post-Sullivan extensions are the real problem with current defamation law. "A precedent designed to protect coverage of political wrongdoing suddenly made it hard for celebrities to sue over falsehoods about their personal lives," he writes in a 2021 Wall Street Journal essay. "Anyone, however obscure, who spoke out would lose traditional protection against libel and slander. The term 'thrust' suggests it is vaguely inappropriate for ordinary citizens to take part in public affairs; at any rate, the price for doing so was to make your reputation fair game, a tax of sorts on speech."
Reynolds also suggests that it was mistake to require evidence that the defendant actually "entertained serious doubts" about the truth of his statements, as opposed to asking whether a "reasonably prudent" person would have had such doubts. And he notes that more recent Supreme Court decisions "allow a case to be dismissed before the plaintiff can engage in discovery unless the plaintiff can demonstrate—not merely allege—actual malice." That means "the plaintiff has to prove the defendant's state of mind before being authorized to gather evidence."
The upshot of those extensions, Reynolds says, is that "if a news organization defames you, it's almost impossible to find redress in an American court." At the same time, he acknowledges the seriousness of the concerns underlying Sullivan. "Sullivan's was just one of many such lawsuits filed against national news outlets, and the strategy was, until the Sullivan decision, a highly successful one," Reynolds notes in a 2020 research paper. "These lawsuits were intended to chill or banish negative coverage."
Reynolds suggests "remedies that fall short of overturning Sullivan, but that would still represent a significant change in current law." One possibility, he says, "would involve simply eliminating the 'public figure' concept and returning to the 'public official' language of the Sullivan opinion. This approach would undo most of the harm to plaintiffs, while retaining the rationale for the original decision, which was inspired by a cabal of state officials trying to avoid media scrutiny."
If the Supreme Court had done that prior to 2020, and if New York had taken advantage of the new leeway by changing its defamation rules, Fox News would be in even more trouble than it is now. In trying to meet the current standard, Dominion has marshaled compelling evidence that Fox executives, producers, and hosts knew the stolen-election narrative was false.
"One of the defenses is that even false speech about public figures is protected so long as it is believed by the speaker," the illustrious First Amendment attorney Floyd Abrams told the Associated Press. "But no one at Fox appears ready to say that he or she did believe the assertions…and there now appears to be substantial evidence that no one there at Fox did so. It's a major blow."
If Dominion's status as a "public figure" did not matter, the company would have to prove negligence rather than "reckless disregard" for the truth. Based on the evidence we have seen so far, it seems to me, satisfying that weaker test would be pretty easy.
By contrast, ditching the "public figure" extension would not have helped Trump win his lawsuit against CNN. Most of the allegedly defamatory statements he cites were made when he was president, so they would qualify as criticism of a public official. And while some of those statements (e.g., likening Trump to "Hitler, Stalin, and Mao") were undeniably hyperbolic, they were expressions of opinion rather than assertions of fact. Other labels that CNN personnel or guests applied to Trump (e.g., "demagogue," "racist," "insurrectionist," and "Russian lackey") likewise fall squarely into the category of the "vehement, caustic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials" that the Supreme Court was keen to protect in Sullivan.
It is therefore not surprising that Trump, even while insisting that he can meet the actual malice standard, argues that he and similarly situated plaintiffs should not have to do so. "In circumstances like these," his complaint says, "the judicially-created policy of the 'actual malice' standard should not apply because 'ideological homogeneity in the media—or in the channels of information distribution—risks repressing certain ideas from the public consciousness just as surely as if access were restricted by the government.'"
Trump is quoting from a 2021 dissent by the late D.C. Circuit Judge Laurence Silberman, who conceded that "there are a few notable exceptions to Democratic Party ideological control." He mentioned Fox News, the New York Post, and The Wall Street Journal's editorial page, adding that "it should be sobering for those concerned about news bias that these institutions are controlled by a single man and his son."
Trump's argument, which is based on the purported dominance of large, left-leaning news outlets, is strikingly different from Gorsuch's concern about "a world in which everyone carries a soapbox in their hands." Where Trump sees too much gatekeeping, Gorsuch sees too little. And it seems unlikely that Gorsuch, notwithstanding his concerns about the ease with which people can be defamed and the difficulty of recovering damages when that happens, would go along with Trump's vision of a First Amendment that allows civil liability for harsh criticism of the president.
"Suits like these do not throttle the First Amendment," Trump claims. "They vindicate the First Amendment's marketplace of ideas." He says that while arguing that it should be a tort to call the president a demagogue.
That peculiar understanding of free speech should trouble Americans of every political and ideological flavor. Republicans (especially Trump and his supporters) are no less prone to rhetorical overkill than Democrats, and conservatives have as much reason as progressives to worry about the consequences of the weakened defamation standards that Trump favors.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Hi Jacob. Can I introduce you to Reasons coverage of Fox vs Dominion?
Shills gotta shill
“Erroneous statement is inevitable in free debate,”
No it isn’t. Just don’t claim as truth or lies what you can’t prove or refute. Then there can be no “erroneous statement” without lying and everything can be said.
Criminalize lying.
+1,000,000
And, revoke the SPECIAL protections afforded "the press" along with repealing Section 230.
No special deals for anyone.
Imagine an enemy that you’ve been brainwashed to be unable to perceive.
The enemy is human corruption.
First the brainwashing must be overcome.
Good… good……. So when are you checking yourself in for deprograming? Afterwards will you finally renounce the Nazi party, apologize to the Jews for your bigotry, and finally admit the Holocaust was real?
Back to that tired old meme again eh Kol Nidre boy?
Criminalizing the evidence that refutes the holocaust in every nation where it allegedly occurred is your brainwashing schtick.
I think the bigger issue is the clear double standard around politically popular targets.
There is no way that huge volumes of the nonsense spurted about Trump wasn't clearly done in malice with at least willful ignorance of the truth.
Or take the Covington kids for example. Clearly innocent children that were subject to death threats for clearly doing nothing to anyone who would bother watching the 1-minute livestreamed video.
On the other hand, Dominion has somehow not dismissed despite the clear and transparent political nature of the arguments and the technical questions involved which undermine any arguments that they should have known better.
https://twitter.com/JesseKellyDC/status/1632890596506386440?t=rYB_O_j3K2O8PpEBSF7Eag&s=19
If you lived in anything other than a late stage republic, this would result in arrests. Not just outrage clicks. Not even calls to resign. This kind of abuse of government power should come with a 30 year prison sentience.
Stop the Cheka before it’s too late.
[Link]
https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1632912031882805250?t=fU7cZk7E5WavkmXuzmnK5Q&s=19
BREAKING: Never before seen video of January 6 shows Jacob Chansley, the QAnon Shaman, being led through the Capitol by police the entire time that he was in the building.
[Video]
The video evidence shows beyond a shadow of a doubt the J6 committee lied, and that much of what's been shown on TV over the last few years was so heavily edited and misrepresented as to be essentially fraudulent.
I just watched as Pelosi's Hill Police escorted the "QAnon shaman" through the entire building, showing him the way and opening doors for him. Somehow he got 4 years for walking around, but the cops who never left his side got nothing.
LOL. How do you know this video is the entirety of his time there?
Hell look at Kyle Rittenhouse; there are still morons who believe he crossed state lines with a rifle, that his mom drove him, and that he's a murderer.
There are still morons that think everyone he shot was black….
Rittenhouse (an American hero) is going after the lying democrats who defamed him.
Sullum is probably sweating bullets at the thought of being sued for all the phony bullshit he’s written.
Lying leftist propagandist wailing that his privelege to lie about people he doesn't like might be the tiniest bit restrained. Fuck off you DNC hack.
I am now making $19k or more every month from home by doing very simple and easy job online from home. I have received exactly $20845 last month from this home job. Join now this job and start making cash online by
Follow instruction on website Here.............>>> http://www.jobsrevenue.com
"virtually anyone in this country can publish virtually anything for immediate consumption"
And anyone can suddenly become a "public figure" through no effort of their own, depriving them of the right to legal action normally available to "private" people.
Didn't that save the media's ass when it came to their treatment of Richard Jewell?
Hey Damiksec, damiskec, and damikesc, and ALL of your other socks…
How is your totalitarian scheme to FORCE people to buy Reason magazines coming along?
Free speech (freedom from “Cancel Culture”) comes from Facebook, Twitter, Tik-Tok, and Google, right? THAT is why we need to pass laws to severely constrict these DANGEROUS companies (which, ugh!, the BASTARDS, put profits above people!)!!! We must pass new laws to retract “Section 230” and FORCE the evil corporations to provide us all (EXCEPT for my political enemies, of course!) with a “UBIFS”, a Universal Basic Income of Free Speech!
So leftist “false flag” commenters will inundate Reason-dot-com with shitloads of PROTECTED racist comments, and then pissed-off readers and advertisers and buyers (of Reason magazine) will all BOYCOTT Reason! And right-wing idiots like Damikesc will then FORCE people to support Reason, so as to nullify the attempts at boycotts! THAT is your ultimate authoritarian “fix” here!!!
“Now, to “protect” Reason from this meddling here, are we going to REQUIRE readers and advertisers to support Reason, to protect Reason from boycotts?”
Yup. Basically. Sounds rough. (Quote damikesc)
(Etc.)
See https://reason.com/2020/06/24/the-new-censors/
(And Asshole Extraordinaire will NEVER take back its' totalitarian bullshit!!!! 'Cause Asshole Extraordinaire is already PERFECT in every way!!!)
This (above damikesc quote) is a gem of the damnedest dumbness of damikesc! Like MANY “perfect in their own minds” asshole authoritarians around here, he will NEVER take back ANY of the stupidest and most evil things that he has written! I have more of those on file… I deploy them to warn other readers to NOT bother to try and reason with the most utterly unreasonable of the nit-wit twits here!
Fuck off, Shillsy. Go back to 9gag or Salon or wherever the fuck spawned your Nazi ass, and troll for the Democratic Party there.
So Mammary-NAZI, what do YOU think that the punishment should be for NOT buying the magazine(s) that YOU think that one should buy?
I have had a subscription to Reason for almost twenty years and have always donated to the foundation, so you can go fuck yourself with your phony allegation, you stupid fucking Nazi.
Yet YOU (Perfect One) are The One Who Defends Damned-and-Sick Damiksec, Damiskec, and Damikesc, and ALL of it's other socks!!!
How can You NAZI the YOU are the Perfect Fascist here?
I don't defend Damikesc.
I attack you, you cheap Nazi troll.
Because I hate everything about you, and your shilling, a your heckler veto shitposts, and your loathsome, idiotic troll character. You're fucking garbage, and I think it's everyone's duty here to encourage you to fuck off forever.
It shouldn’t have. Jewel only became a public figure due to all the defamatory coverage.
It's simple: either everyone is equal under the law, or they aren't.
The precedent is that they're not. Public officials have to accept more criticism.
Yep.
Criticism is fine.
The problem is the malicious broadcasting of known falsehood, as Ben mentions above.
More than half the assertions made about Trump were at best completely unchecked, but most often known lies.
Further, the characterization of whole classes of people as “racist” or “grandma killers” stated as fact by representatives of powerful institutions broadcasting to the entire country is not just defamatory fiction, but dangerous as it increases the likelihood people in that class face violence and other assaults on their livelihoods.
But we’re past the point where rules matter. They exist only as weapons for the powers that be to wield against the kulaks and counter-revolutionaries and untermensch. Live and let live isn’t an option. It’s been taken off the table. It’s fantasy now. And you don’t get a choice in the conditions you’re subject to. You live in a kill or be killed environment.
You can try to go along to get along, or keep your head down, but they will eventually come for you and yours.
We are in a real war.
"most often known lies."
As opposed to the almost uncountable known lies Trump himself has spouted? Were the standards he promotes become accepted, the legal bills alone would drive him into insolvency, not even counting the damages.
Eat lead.
And no news media on the left would exist anymore.
Public officials are public officials and you have a right to redress grievances to your government and public officials. Been the law for Century or more. No one is talking about that. On a date that no one can pin point, a football coach became a public figure without his consent or knowledge and automatically lost the same constitutional rights that a 'private' football coach has and then lost his libel case because of it.
Ah, good, another deflecting closet cop-sucking, BOAF SIDEZ! retard like sarcasmic.
"As long as Donald Trump, Brett Kavanaugh, and The Bundys get more criticism than 303 Creative, Hunter Biden, the Clintons, Garland, the FBI, Fauci, Walensky, BLM, Antifa, and Nikole Hannah-Jones I don't see a problem. Nobody is sole arbiter of the truth." - Vernon Derpner
None of us may know *the* truth, but *a* truth about your intelligence is self-evident. Dumbass.
Why allow consequence-free public defamatory lying about anybody, "public figure" or not? Where's the good in that?
The good is to allow frank and open discussion about the actions of government officials without citizens suffering the chilling effect of fear of defamation lawsuits.
Over at Volkh a police officer was falsely accused of making a racist symbol and the court tossed out his defamation case. At some point we've stretched Sullivan so far that it's going to break.
"The good is to allow frank and open discussion about the actions of government officials without citizens suffering the chilling effect of fear of defamation lawsuits."
Yep.
Where is this "frank and open discussion" you speak of?
It sure as hell isn't in congress, major media, education, or corporate America.
Lying without consequence isn't a characteristic of frank and open discussion, it's propaganda used to brainwash the masses by a totalitarian regime.
Goebbels never had so much power.
^THIS^ …that being said – there is still a strong argument in the absence of a totally captured govt, education, media and bureaucracy [and increasingly the ‘scientific’, or at least health science ] communities for people to be able to make gross incorrect or just bigoted and bias generalizations that can be repudiated [propositionally] in a free and open forum. Forums like say… big tech online forums … so long as they arent censoring the arguments of one side.
people generalize all the time... very often incorrectly
it comes with free speech
the problem is with gerrymandered public squares
Maybe citizens should learn the appropriate phrases like "alleged corruption", "apparent corruption", "suspected fraud", "apparent adultery", "apparent Nazi sympathies", etc., followed by some evidence like "based on his/her...".
You know, that's the way we can actually have useful political discussions.
or be humble enough in the wake of a correct rebuttal to acknowledge their error and rephrase
They aren't. We already know that.
Neither are propagandists who deliberately craft lies about political opponents and can't be sued.
Since when does "frank and open discussion about the actions of government officials" include telling lies about those officials?
Since no one is appointed by God to judge what is a "lie".
Judges are. That's why we have defamation lawsuits.
And the standard is that if something is provably a lie, defamatory, and malicious, people can be held accountable.
And if you're a wealthy "public figure" who can afford to spend six figures on taking a case to court, you can get a judgement on that. If you're a regular guy who would be ruined by the expense of defending yourself against such a suit, even if you won, you're going to be very cautious about pissing off any public official with public criticism. As we often say here, "the process is the punishment". That's why not having different rules for libel for public officials would have a chilling effect of political speech. Setting a higher bar for defamation suits against public figures helps level the field between the elites and the private citizens.
By this logic there would be no defamation claims against anyone. Plenty of non-public people are wealthy. So why don’t you just argue that defamation lawsuits should be banned?
The good is to allow frank and open discussion
You mean frank and open discussions like “No, I will not bake the cake for your gay wedding?”
Blackstone’s Ratio: Better to let 10 guilty men go free than to wrongly convict one innocent person. Garland’s Ratio: Why not convict the one innocent person?
You’re afraid of silencing frank and open discussion? Because the FBI raided an ex-President’s house on a fishing expedition.
How does allowing defamatory lies to be told without recourse lead to "frank and open" discussions? Lies are the opposite of honest discussion.
Defaming speakers is far more chilling to frank and open discussions than holding the defamers to account.
The solution to defamation is not more defamation.
Sullivan was decided in 1964. The Constitution was ratified in 1788. You know, I'm pretty sure we didn't live under some tyranny where public discourse was under perpetual threat from elected officials for 176 years before the SCOTUS graced us benighted deplorables with it's exception for slander, as long as the target was icky.
And you think we can’t have frank and open discussions without lying?
Man. Wondering how Mike, sarc, jeff, sqrsly are taking all this J6 footage Tucker is showing. Not even 14k hours but 40k hours. Shows the good officer not even bear the rioting. Shows Epps there past the time he told the J6 committee he was there. Shows the shaman being escorted around the Capitol by officers.
Will night 2 include the video of cops beating a woman to death then blaming it on an Adderall OD?
Unfortunately no film of the Ashley Babbitt confrontation. Although we already know she was shot, unarmed, with cops on her side of the door not worried about any violence when shot.
What difference, at this point, does it make?
Let’s remember here that it was the Nazis who accused “the Jews” of “The Big Lie”.
So, strictly speaking, CNN defamed itself as being Nazis; which, given the political ideology they seem to favor, is arguably quite accurate.
"Let’s remember here that it was the Nazis who accused “the Jews” of “The Big Lie”."
Sqrlsy was doing that same exact thing here since January 2020. I don't call him a Nazi just for the sake of hyperbole.
So if I call a murderer a murderer or a killer, I must be a murderer or a killer, for having made such an accusation? Truth is evil, so we must all lie? WTF, people!?!?!
If you ever come around to wanting to work on your affliction, EvilBahnFuhrers, start here: M. Scott Peck, The People of the Lie, the Hope for Healing Human Evil
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684848597/reasonmagazinea-20/
People who are evil attack others instead of facing their own failures. Peck demonstrates the havoc these “people of the lie” work in the lives of those around them.
You're a Nazi because you believe Nazi things and push Nazi principles like corporatism, abortion and euthanasia, racism, censorship, bookburning and a police state.
You walk like a Nazi, quack like a Nazi, and look like a Nazi, so you sure as hell aren't a libertarian.
As for poor Scott M. Peck, if he were still alive he'd stick his boot up your ass for using his book as cover for your lies and deception.
Let’s remember here that it was the Nazis who accused “the Jews” of “The Big Lie”.
From what I can find, it was Hitler himself writing in Mein Kampf. He claimed that Jews were using a "big lie" of blaming Germany's loss in WWI on a nationalist general. It is really a case of an accusation being a confession. Hitler was using a big lie as he coined the term.
"Always Accuse Your Enemies of Your Own Sins" --- Joseph Goebbels, minister of propaganda for Hitler.
And the Nazis would go on to use that technique as a centerpiece in their propaganda against the Jews. (An international conspiracy of Jews started WWI, didntja know?).
So, strictly speaking, CNN defamed itself as being Nazis; which, given the political ideology they seem to favor, is arguably quite accurate.
Another case of an accusation being a confession, perhaps?
Hitler's Big Lie being similar in nature to Trump's Big Lie is a straightforward and well-documented case, actually.
https://www.salon.com/2021/04/11/trumps-big-lie-and-hitlers-is-this-how-americas-slide-into-totalitarianism-begins/
Trump’s Big Lie and Hitler’s: Is this how America’s slide into totalitarianism begins?
The above is mostly strictly factual, with very little editorializing. When I post it, the FACTS never get refuted… I only get called names. But what do you expect from morally, ethically, spiritually, and intellectually bankrupt Trumpturds?
Totalitarians want to turn GOP into GOD (Grand Old Dicktatorshit).
LMAO… “because they were betrayed by a secret coalition of Jews and socialists”
It’s pretty clear to any person who has a brain that your article is “The Big Lie” and it’s obsession with White Supremacy & Socialism would peg that approach dead-on..
Leftard-Projection is baffling…. Blaming everyone else for **EXACTLY** what they are doing.
Trump says US will 'never' be a socialist country
President Trump made an unequivocal pronouncement against the multiplying cries for socialism in America.
It wasn't the Republicans who just pitched the SAFE TECH Act.
Hello,
Those who seek to weaken defamation standards may regret opening that door, as it could have significant and far-reaching consequences.
Defamation laws are in place to protect people's reputations and prevent false or damaging statements from being made about them. These laws exist to ensure that individuals are not subject to unfounded attacks on their character and are able to defend their reputations.
If these defamation laws were to be weakened, it could open the door for individuals to make false or damaging statements about others without consequence. This could lead to a rise in unfounded attacks on people's reputations, which could have serious consequences for individuals and society as a whole.
Furthermore, weakening defamation laws could also make it more difficult for individuals to protect themselves against such attacks. This could have a chilling effect on free speech, as individuals may be less likely to speak out on controversial topics or express their opinions if they fear being subjected to damaging attacks on their reputations.
In summary, while some may see weakening defamation standards as a way to increase free speech or protect themselves from legal action, it could have significant negative consequences for individuals and society as a whole.
As Justice Scalia said, it had ZERO significant negative consequences for the 200 years of law that preceded this garbage – the constitution does not require ‘actual malice’ and equal protection prohibits putting people into separate classes of public figures and private figures, i.e. in one case a certain football coach was declared to be public figure but without his consent or knowledge. In fact no one can identify the date he went from being private to public figure. NY Times case has utterly destroyed public debate and discourse in this Country by leaving almost everyone defenseless to be a charge of being called a racist, fascist, Nazi etc.
NY Times case has utterly destroyed public debate and discourse in this Country by leaving almost everyone defenseless to be a charge of being called a racist, fascist, Nazi etc.
Being called a racist, Nazi, etc. is an expressed opinion. (Unless the person is being accused of actually being a member of the Nazi party.) Nothing would change if Sullivan was overturned when it comes to people calling each other names.
OMG snowflake much.
Why do you people get to completely reverse your worldview each season?
Sticks and stones dude. Grow a fucking penis.
Tony, you have no business calling anyone a snowflake. You are a whining, mincing little bitch. You’re far too stupid to learn form reason and logic, so we can only hope that you’re subjected to Pavlovian conditioning. The more agonizing the better.
Couldn't we institute a loser pays system, where if someone falsely sues you for defamation they have to pay your legal bills?
Problem with that is most of the time the loser lacks any ability to pay; something called judgement proof. Like Willie Sutton said he robbed banks because that was where the money was. I have little doubt that plenty of peeps said much worse things about Dominion than FOX did but they never got sued because they did not have the deep pockets FOX has.
If we had a loser pays civil justice system, that would certainly affect my views on this. For people of ordinary means, the potential expense of mounting a defense against a defamation suit could be ruinous, and enough to silence their criticism even if they know they're right.
My hope is that with the guarantee of being paid upon victory, lawyers would be willing to take such cases.
Megan, you have it backwards. The standards they are trying to weaken aren't the protections of defamation, but the barriers to defamation claims.
At this point in time, it is effectively impossible to win a defamation suit against a politically favored opponent, such as most of the media. The courts have repeatedly bent definitions backwards to claim that effectively nothing is actionable, and anything that is actionable cannot meet the actual malice standard.
No one's actually trying to weaken standards.
They're trying to weaken protections for defamers.
Right now, there is a class of people who can be defamed with impunity by the media and the media's controllers. Even worse, the media gets to decide if a person is IN that class.
Fixing that would be strengthening the laws by making them apply to all equally.
My friends makes 80-100 every hour on the internet..(SW-10) she has been without work for eight months but the previous month her revenue was 20,000 only working on the laptop 5 hours a day..
Check this……….>>>https://www.join.hiring9.com
Having more judicial adjudications of publicly made factual claims wouldn't be bad. Courts have better processes than most other venues for sorting out what's true (to the extent possible). So relaxing defamation standards to permit more lawsuits may be good.
Let's also permit people to voluntarily waive immunity from defamation liability: "Here, I said it -- if you claim it's false, sue me!" People could bolster the credibility of their claims by exposing themselves to defamation lawsuits. A choice not to do so would be telling as well.
No doubt lawyers are getting cartoon dollar signs in their eyes just thinking about what you suggest.
Conservatives Who Want To Weaken Defamation Standards May Regret Opening That Can of Worms
Lying jurinalists who obliquely threaten the general public may regret writing checks they can’t cash.
So for instance one can ask- is Tucker Carlson the Sam Bankman-Fried of
Alex Joneses?
In other Florida 1st Amendment news, Republican state Senator Jason Brodeur has filed a bill that would require bloggers to register with the state if they want to write about elected officials.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/3882068-florida-bill-would-require-bloggers-to-register-before-writing-about-desantis/
I don't think that they really care about the possibility of being hoisted by their own petard. They just figure that they'll be able to hold enough power in enough states that it won't matter. They certainly don't care about the Constitution.
I’d be interested in knowing how influential this Brodeur is and how far his bill goes in the legislative process. Does he represent DeSantis, or is Brodeur just going on a frolic of his own?
Jason Brodeur was chairman of the Seminole County Republican Party, President/CEO of the Seminole Chamber of Commerce, and was endorsed by DeSantis and AG Moody in the GOP primary for his current seat in 2020. So, he's not some nobody. (Seminole county is a solidly Republican county that includes affluent suburbs of Orlando.)
Even if the bill just dies quietly, never getting anywhere, it is still horrible that he would even think that it was a good enough idea to actually file the bill. That means that he considered for a fair amount of time and had staff work on it, at a minimum. Something this ridiculous shouldn't just be ignored by his Republican colleagues. They, and Ron DeSantis, who had endorsed him in 2020, as I said, should be asked about it by the press and forced to go on record with their opinion of it. If they reply only with "no comment", that is cowardice.
It isn't enough to say that they stand for the Constitution when there is some part of it that they like and that protects them and their voters. The Constitution protects everyone, or it protects no one. They defend all of it, or they defend none of it.
I understand the governor has repudiated this bill, if he ever approved it at all.
I fully support the constitutional right to anonymity.
I observe, however, that there are people who don’t support it, and they’re not just on one side of our duopolistic political spectrum. There are plenty of duopolists, including Democrats, who would like to require people to dox themselves as the price of democratic participation.
Such mandatory disclosure is in the interest of the ruling classes, because such rules are slanted in favor of the famous and the shameless who have nothing to lose from publicity. Meanwhile, ordinary citizens shrink from getting thrown into the viper pit of social-media inquisitions.
This is not “sunshine is the best disinfectant,” this is punishment for those who dare to dissent from the ruling consensus.
What makes you think that you’re entitled to privacy when you’re in public?
I understand the governor has repudiated this bill, if he ever approved it at all.
I have read articles quoting him on that, yes. Glad that the Harvard Law grad wouldn't support such a thing, but, of course, he had to complain about how it was unfair to try and associate it with him. After all, state legislators don't do his bidding, right? Well, they pretty much do in Florida, and people already have reason think he might be keen to chill speech against him. Just ask Disney, if they dare answer.
Such mandatory disclosure is in the interest of the ruling classes, because such rules are slanted in favor of the famous and the shameless who have nothing to lose from publicity.
Quite the opposite, really. If you define the "ruling classes" as the wealthy and corporations, they do quite well at keeping their "speech" anonymous. That is, if their "speech" is really them donating money to networks of PACs, think tanks, and other political non-profits. I have no sympathy for anyone with thousands of dollars available to spend on politics if laws could be passed to require disclosure of high-value donations to political groups like that. Politicians on both sides don't have much incentive to do that, however. They like the gravy train enabled by dark money.
One of the Founding Fathers started off as a printer, and here he is in 1789 calling for dealing with falsehoods in the press (please note that he resorts to satire, though Poe’s Law may limit some people’s ability to see this):
https://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_speechs16.html
Sullum, you're a moron. Here's an example of what I mean.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11824457/Trump-serial-rapist-Senior-Democrat-makes-outrageous-claim-MSNBC-slams-CPAC.html
Were these new standards enacted and made retroactive, liberals would own every conservative media outlet. The lies have been that common.
Dominion may yet end up owning Fox, even under the current standards. The depositions show actual malice on the part of Rupert Murdoch. Were I one of Fox's lawyers I would be locking the Murdoch family in a room until they accepted any settlement Dominion proposed. The man whose media empire began because his father reported government lies (in Australia, about World War I), may lose it because he refused to report government lies. Poetic justice.
Is Tucker Carlson the Sam Bankman-Fried of Alex Joneses? Isn’t that the standard? Willfully lying for profit when you have already admitted in court you are not a journalist? Can you lie about crypto and take people’s money? Can you induce people into violence with fake information or manipulative and deceptive devices held out to be legitimate news? What is the standard? Alex Jone’s case is instructive.
Jones’s
Start doxxing leftists.
I thought Free Speech didn't mean freedom from consequences? Why should you be able to spread lies and rumors with near impunity just because someone is "famous"?
If you're going to make voting machines, and you're going to be privately owned by hedge fund managers with ties to Soros, and you're going to have patents on silently weighting votes with those machines, the press and the public have a right to say whatever they want about you. And you need to open the doors, open the books, open the machines, and PROVE you're not cancelling the votes you don't like while giving senile racists 81 million votes.
They won't look at it.
Biden isn't racist, and if the Republicans keep getting owned by a guy they claim is senile, just imagine how they would be totally destroyed by any Democrat who isn't!
The internals of electronic voting machines are protected by intellectual property law. You basically want to confiscate that property. Big government at its finest. The machines have passed audit after audit after audit. I personally never understood what was wrong with the old fashioned mechanical lever voting machines, but through our elected representatives we decided to eliminate them.
Well you can offer your name as a co- defendant along side Foxnews and make your case under oath.
The internals of electronic voting machines are protected by intellectual property law.
And that's why they're unacceptable.
The machines have passed audit after audit after audit.
Of course they have. If they have been programmed to give bogus results, they will give the same bogus results every time you rerun the count.