U.S. Energy Department Endorses Lab Leak Theory of COVID-19's Origins
The push to label the lab leak thesis a racist conspiracy theory now looks even more foolish.

The U.S. Department of Energy has concluded that the most likely origin of COVID-19 is a lab leak.
The federal agency reviewed new intelligence, which prompted officials to revise their position that it's unclear how the virus emerged. The White House and certain members of Congress also reviewed the intelligence, The Wall Street Journal reports.
The Energy Department's conclusion is made with "low confidence," according to The New York Times, which was quick to point out that "U.S. spy agencies remain divided over the origins of the virus." The FBI previously concluded with "moderate confidence" that intelligence pointed to a lab leak origin; other agencies have been skeptical or undecided.
The shifting consensus on this issue should be a cautionary tale for all the would-be censors who thunderously objected to such talk. In the first year of the pandemic, the idea that COVID-19 might have emerged from a coronavirus research facility in Wuhan, China, was widely branded a racist conspiracy theory. Social media companies such as Facebook vigorously suppressed discussion of the lab leak thesis, partly because U.S. health officials and mainstream news outlets expressed absolute confidence that COVID-19 emerged as a result of zoonotic spillover.
In February 2020, when Sen. Tom Cotton (R–Ark.) said a lab leak was possible, The Washington Post attacked him for "repeating a coronavirus conspiracy theory that was already debunked." The New York Times accused Cotton of spreading a "fringe" idea. CNN said the senator was "playing a dangerous game." PolitiFact gave the lab leak theory a "pants on fire" rating, the most serious level of falsehood on the website's trademarked "Truth-O-Meter." NPR reported that scientists had debunked "the lab accident theory" and that therefore the case was closed.
CNN also chided lab leak believers for subscribing to a "theory that's almost certainly not true," and it criticized President Donald Trump for failing to heed the national intelligence community's views on the matter. (For more examples of media misfires, see this thread from The Washington Free Beacon's Drew Holden.)
In hindsight, it's astonishing how credulously—how gullibly—many journalists bought into obvious Chinese government spin. One of the very worst offenders was Apoorva Mandavilli, The New York Times' lead coronavirus reporter, who lamented in May 2021 that people would talk about a theory with "racist roots."

What was racist about the lab leak theory was never well-explained. In fact, one could plausibly argue that the alternative explanation—that it came from a Chinese wet market—has far more racially problematic implications. After all, if wet markets are responsible for the pandemic, then the culprit is a culturally specific Chinese food custom. The lab leak theory, on the other hand, indicts an organization, the Chinese government, rather than a populace. And unlike the wet market theory, a possible lab origin also calls for scrutiny of U.S. agencies, which have funded coronavirus research on bats in Wuhan, China.
The truth is the truth, and investigators should pursue the origins of COVID-19 no matter where they lead. But if the goal is minimizing anti-Asian animus, there's actually good reason to prefer the lab leak explanation.
Yet trackers of so-called disinformation often labeled lab leak a racist conspiracy theory. Take the Global Disinformation Index (GDI), a British organization that has received funds from the U.S. State Department. Its purpose is to dissuade advertisers from working with news websites that spread incorrect ideas. In practice, GDI has functioned as a kind of blacklist for conservative, libertarian, and alternative news sites. It even flagged Reason as one of America's "ten riskiest news outlets," ostensibly because Reason does not provide "information regarding authorship" (we do), or possibly because we don't explain our fact-checking and correction policies (we have such policies, and they are robust), or maybe because we provide a mostly unfiltered comments section.
Hans Bader, a former attorney for the Education Department, points out that a GDI report on ad-funded COVID-19 disinformation accused news sites of peddling anti-Chinese racism for accusing the Chinese government of covering up a lab leak. Another GDI report warned advertisers against working with sites that "traffic in theories that the Chinese government" should be blamed for the virus's spread.
GDI and other "disinformation" trackers either have to start accusing the U.S. Energy Department of racism or admit that it never made much sense to proactively acquit a notoriously authoritarian, secretive, and untrustworthy foreign government.
Health officials and intelligence experts may not have enough information to conclusively determine COVID-19's origins. But the push to not merely decry the lab leak theory but to actively prohibit discussion of it—as was the case on Facebook—has not aged well. Let people discuss and debate all variety of coronavirus topics, without fear of sanction.
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This is my shocked face.
It would be unprecedented.
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20040423/china-sars-death
The profit motive. These viruses are innovation. The engineering is called gain of function. Obama banned gain of function virus engineering on U.S. soil in 2014 but continued funding COVID engineering when it moved to Wuhan. In 2017 Trump reinstated it. In 2018 US inspectors assessed the work they were funding and reported that conditions at Wuhan were dangerous and a lad leak likely. Nothing was done. Just denial.
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The virus was circulating in china months before the outbreak at Wuhan.
Circulating in Wuhan months before it was reported.
China not respecting free speech transparency! Say it ain’t so.
Many reports indicating a stark difference between reality and the propaganda were censored here too.
With references.
https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200608/Cremation-numbers-reveal-possible-suppression-of-true-COVID-19-data-in-China.aspx
Indeed. And it went on to kill as many people as the Nazis did with The Holocaust.
I mean, we've only known about it here since Jerryskids explicitly pointed out it about a week after the news of the virus, and the virus itself, started leaking out of China.
These "media" outlets should be considered foreign agents and shut down. The "covid expert" at the NYT (who lacked any serious hard science education) should be deported for foreign espionage. T
What the hell is the ENERGY department doing spend tax dollars investigating a VIRUS?????
Same thing as the CDC researching gun violence, spending taxpayer dollars and expanding their fiefdom.
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When you're responsible for the nation's nuclear arsenal, nobody's going to stop you from investigating a virus.
came to ask the same isn't that teh job of the CDC or other health related government agency
For some reason, maybe because they are used to running other types of research labs, they are in charge of overseeing biological research labs in the USA.
The US governments long held policy is that biological and chemical weapons are in the same category as nuclear weapons. The DoE is in charge of nuclear weapons research and by extension other so called WMDs. Part of this is keeping tabs on labs that conduct research that can be weaponized. Ergo, this would fall under the purview.
Ding, ding, ding.
Did you think the CDC pansies are going to understand the potential military aspects of such research?
Most science has military applications.
Conservative Cowards whine about it and go hide in their closets.
Quit deflecting, Vendifag.
Cowards, yeah, it will be funny when a conservative curb stomps you for getting out of line.
That's not even remotely true. Lots of science isn't used for military purposes--why blame conservatives on that fact? What is there to be afraid of?
Why does the department of education have a SWAT team? The answer: because they can.
I mean we have what, 17 different intelligence agencies. Every agency now has its own law enforcement arm, even though there is a specific law enforcement agency.
It’s the fact that all agencies want to do all things.
The Department of Energy is where genomics work sits.
https://www.energy.gov/science/genomics
"The ostensible reason for the initiative was DOE’s interest in better understanding the genetic effects of radiation exposure"
But really it's because the DOE National Labs are where "big science" gadgets are invented and then commercialized.
The NIH didn't have the engineering expertise required for sequencing and data analysis.
Your tax money dolled out through legislation hard at work.
All national laboratories fall under the purview of the energy department.
If only you American retards knew how your own government worked you wouldn’t be so easily duped by propaganda outlets like Reason.
All national laboratories fall under the purview of the energy department.
Oh? Wuhan Lab is under the DoE? Or are you referring to Fauci's front group, EcoHealth Alliance, that was used to conduct what his previous boss had forbidden in the US?
"The push to label the lab leak thesis a racist conspiracy theory now looks even more foolish."
"No one ever called these things conspiracies" - Mike Laursen, professional gaslighter
I loved how for months we were told that it was absolutely impossible by the smart people like Fauci. They had sequenced it and there was zero chance that it wasn't completely naturally occurring outside of the lab. Next thing we know, we'll be told the vaccines weren't effective or safe.
Next thing we know, we’ll be told the vaccines weren’t effective or safe.
"Actually, they came from a wet market."
They have been effective and safe.
Wet markets are effective and safe? What the fuck?
I'm fairly certain he was not referring to wet markets with his comment.
Well we know that the virus was circulating in China months before the outbreak at the wet market in Wuhan.
The outbreak was from the lab, not a wet market like your Winnie the Pooh overlords tried to claim.
Either way he's wrong. The vaccine was not as effective as claimed.
Good one!
You are a Liar.. Liar.. Pants on fire.
Fauci said nothing of the kind.
But he did say that you were a lying piece of crap.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/fauci-blasts-rand-paul-covid-lab-theory-1247137/
Hahahaha!!!! Dumbass.
Really, please link to any comment where I called it a conspiracy theory.
Not my fault if you nuanced discussion strikes you as gaslighting.
Without a doubt, you are the master of nuanced discussion. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back since I'm not there to do it.
"that it came from a Chinese wet market—has far more racially problematic implications. After all, if wet markets are responsible for the pandemic, then the culprit is a culturally specific Chinese food custom. The lab leak theory, on the other hand, indicts an organization, the Chinese government, rather than a populace. "
Listen here, Mr Nuance, Trump said it came from a chinese lab, and Trump is racist, therefore, its racist regardless of the very sane points you just made. Get on board with the narrative
You mean back on board. Robby and the rest of Reason were completely on board with calling the lab leak hypothesis a racist conspiracy back when it mattered.
Rest of reason yes, but Robby has consistently been the one most likely to question any narrative that involves censoring speech. He's not perfect, but he is one of the best Reason has.
He's basically MAGA if MAGA didn't know how to change a tire on its scooter.
And that hair ::swoons::
It is positively s
ouave!Robby was hand picked by Fauci to interview with
This
In 2021 most of them actually said the lab leak was plausible. Nothing before then though.
I don't remember any articles of Reason ever calling the lab leak theory hypothesis a racist conspiracy theory. Do you have any link to an example?
(I am genuinely asking: I really don't remember but I don't say it did not happen.)
Maybe, just maybe, the way Trump says things invited this type of thing.
Blame it on Trump?
People that hate Trump tend to show up uninvited. They would complain if he ordered a taco salad.
A taco salad? Well, that would be racist after all. It's cultural appropriation. Nothing less.
McDonalds want a word
Maybe, just maybe, the way Trump says things invited this type of thing.
True. And this happens because people base their opinions on EMOTION rather than LOGIC and FACTS. You are a great example, as are most Donkeys.
See Global Warming. Masks. Lockdowns. Trayvon Martin. Georgia Voting Law. Disney. etc. ad infinitum
Or its as simple as him typing away on truth social about the CHYNA VIRUS and weird capitalization of RANDOM words FOR presumed EMPHASIS!
Whether it came from a lab or the wet market - both of which are in China - then China is still the source of the virus. If its determined that the virus was intentionally modified to make it more deadly to humans and then intentionally leaked in China itself (the chinese wanted to kill their own citizens first?) that would be something. I think most plausible explanation could be that the virus was fucked with at the Wuhan lab and accidentally leaked and then China covered it up (or is attempting to do so).
Yet it was your side that insisted the virus originated at the Wuhan wet market, and tried to censor any opposing views. Don't deny it.
Trump's HUUUGE attitude doesn't matter. What does matter is that your side tried hard to flag and/or silence him because he told what you didn't want to hear. That is not commendable.
Simpler explanation:
"a possible lab origin also calls for scrutiny of U.S. agencies"
And "racism" is always the default countercharge.
"New York Times, which was quick to point out that "U.S. spy agencies remain divided over the origins of the virus."
Desperately clinging to the narrative as long as they can.
I would definitely hold out for credible advice for the spy agencies. They have never lied to us or been wrong in the past.
You really are committed to blaming China aren't you, tinfoil boy?
You can’t be this stupid.
Never underestimate the utter stupidity and credulousness of a leftist.
Veni sees shrikes idiocy as a challenge.
"Another GDI report warned advertisers against working with sites that "traffic in theories that the Chinese government" should be blamed for the virus's spread."
Well, if it wasn't the Communist Chinese Party (aka 'the government') who openly allowed international travel from Wuhan while quarantining Wuhan from internal travel, who was it?
The spread of the Communist Chinese Virus was a deliberate germ warfare attack on the entire world, to insure every economy would be impacted, not just Chinas.
No, China just didn't give a shit about the rest of the world. Quarantine China from the rest of the world would have looked bad for them and hurt their economy. They didn't need any other motivation.
The initial publication back in 2019 by the CCP is what first set off my alarm bells. I don't trust any governments much at all, dictatorships even less, and it comes in at zero when ideology like the CCP enters the picture. Memory says the first announcements were that it was three weeks old, which just sounded fishy as hell. If it only took three weeks to discover it was bad, then it would have to have been bubonic plague levels of bad, and it obviously wasn't. That meant it must have taken several months to become serious enough to report, meaning it really wasn't that bad at all, and the CCP was just trying to make up an excuse for whatever social plans they were planning.
As for where it came from, this was the CCP, nothing they say is reliable, and their refusal to cooperate is more telling than their propaganda. The instant they refused to cooperate was the instant I believed it was a lab leak.
Then came Italy, where the average age at death with COVID was the average life expectancy, meaning it was not very bad. And the cruise ship, where something like 700 old passengers were all locked up together for a week and only a few (4? 5?) died.
Sorry, alarmists, but this thing has smelled fishy from the very first announcement.
That fishy smell was just the wet market.
Don't be batty!
Or the nearby brothel.
WEF said there was going to be a pandemic in 2020, which would force extreme policies, so there was sure as hell going to be a pandemic in 2020.
Which makes their "prediction" of a major financial infrastructure attack in the next few years rather concerning.
At this point I think it's safe to assume "WEF prediction" really means "WEF plan."
But we should still believe the feds that the air and water in East Palestine are perfectly safe. Any suggestion otherwise remains a racist, right-wing conspiracy theory with no evidence.
https://babylonbee.com/news/ohio-area-turtles-develop-sudden-interest-in-pizza-martial-arts
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA!
You don't have to take this on faith. If you're worried, take samples and have them tested for dioxins and other toxic substances.
I'm sure lots of people and organizations are already doing that, and as soon as they have something, we'll hear about it.
The billionaires that want you dead don't care what you think as long as you are afraid and take the injection. The culling continues.
that remains the most bizarre of the covid conspiracy theories.... that "they" are trying to kill people in a way that will only impact the people who listen to them.
Yeah, I'd move past bizarre to mind-numbingly stupid. If you were trying to take over the world and kill a bunch of people, it would make a lot more sense for the virus you release to be deadly and for only those who comply by taking the vaccine to be spared. But logic is not a strong suit for people who are apparently just as scared of needles as they are of socialism.
Did any of you youngsters ever see "The Omega Man"?
"...But logic is not a strong suit for people who are apparently just as scared of needles as they are of socialism..."
We are to assume "logic" from one who so bravely slays strawmen?
Read Elmer Fudd the CHUD's reply below, guys.
Getting rid of old people is something that appeals to the Malthusians. Just look at Ezekiel Emmanuel’s ‘Complete Lives System’. Which proposes cutting off medical treatment for anyone over 74 (except of course high ranking Party members in good standing).
COVID excelled at killing grandma and grandpa.
Back in 2020 I started reading a post-apocalyptic series of novels.It probably falls into the "young adult dystopia" genre, like Hunger Games, but hey, I read a lot and it was free on my Kindle Unlimited feed.
Written in 2017 and set not too many years into the future, the story-line follows a group of people who survived a cruise ship hijacking only to find themselves in the middle of a plague that kills 99% of the world's population in a few weeks.
It seems that the world was already suffering from the "bat-flu" pandemic, and a group of billionaires and the US government (which seems to be owned by the billionaires) were tired of the riff-raff being able to move about freely, and the bat-flu checkpoints, forced quarantines, etc., were being protested by "New Patriots" (a group of which also turned out to be the terrorists who attacked the cruise ship...maybe) and the general population.
One of the billionaire's companies manufactured a "universal flu vaccine" to combat the bat-flu, and gave millions of doses away on a "National Day of Health". Said billionaire was also the heroine's father (dun dun dahhh!)
But they had also engineered a new virus, which they intentionally gave to 100,000 "undesirables" during that mass vaccination event, in the hopes that the mass deaths (despite most people wearing masks and gloves all the time already) would give them the cover they needed to pass the "Safe and Secure Act" and force everyone to be fitted with a chip that provides instant access to health (infection) status and "contact tracing", but more importantly would give government (and the corporate overlords) constant tracking/surveillance of everyone. All in the name of "health" and "security", of course.
But oops. The engineered virus mutated in those also infected with the "bat flu" and becomes a "Captain Tripps-like, kills-everyone" kind of virus.
P.S. I posted this on Facebook at the time, and was promptly tagged with a misinformation warning.
Let people discuss and debate all variety of coronavirus topics, without fear of sanction.
Goddamn. Next some Reason contributor will suggest people let loose with all manner of election integrity discussion. THIS IS EXACTLY HOW ROME FELL.
I'm starting to wonder if the censors fucked up by designating reason as a center for misinformation. Nothing makes people question the orthodoxy faster than being labeled a pariah.
They've been carrying water for the purveyors of The Narrative for years, and they still get labeled misinformation. That's got to chafe.
That also goes to prove how little regard the Top Men have for real facts and information getting to the masses.
The comments are why they were listed.
Reason "journalism" is as directed and centrally planned as the rest of the msm.
Yep. I was going to say:
"or maybe because we provide a mostly unfiltered comments section."
Nailed it! God forbid that anything other than the approved narrative is allowed. The CCP and it's ilk live and kill by this very concept.
Sullum is still fuming over his facebook Fact Check.
I'm just surprised that anyone thought he used facts to check.
'In February 2020, when Sen. Tom Cotton (R–Ark.) said a lab leak was possible, The Washington Post attacked him for "repeating a coronavirus conspiracy theory that was already debunked." The New York Times accused Cotton of spreading a "fringe" idea. CNN said the senator was "playing a dangerous game." PolitiFact gave the lab leak theory a "pants on fire" rating, the most serious level of falsehood on the website's trademarked "Truth-O-Meter." NPR reported that scientists had debunked "the lab accident theory" and that therefore the case was closed.'
Hey, did you forget that 2020 was the Most Important Election Year ever? The very survival of Democracy, i.e. the elite establishment that deserves too run the world, was in jeopardy. Our respected media had to take extreme measures, even if they violated long-held principles of objectivity.
Might be worthwhile to review some other claims that were "debunked"
Those who were yelling "disinformation" the loudest were the useful idiots being used to silence people's opinions.
And they think other people are the fascists.
Are you a fascist for being a usefully stupid asshole? Asking for a few of our fellow commenters.
Yes, Tony and Vendicar are good little fascists.
I still love the concept that pointing out that a medical facility accidentally release a pathogen into the environment is more racist than saying that Chinese Nationals just couldn't stop eating dead bats from a wet market.
Gotta keep that narrative alive. Kind of like saying that imprisoning criminals is racist, but not teaching the vast majority of inner-city minorities how to read and do math isn't.
One was mentioned by Trump and so automatically racist while the other was not so the saints on the left really had no choice.
The truth is the truth, and investigators should pursue the origins of COVID-19 no matter where they lead.
And then what? When it is proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the virus leaked from a lab in Wuhan, will there be accountability?
When Bhopal was layered in methyl isocyanate did Union Carbide get to walk away? When Prince William Sound was coated in crude oil, did Exxon get to walk away? When the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, did they get to walk away?
Nothing is going to happen. People all of the world suffered tremendous, tangible damage and no one will be held accountable. And it will happen again. Because no one will be held accountable.
And then there was China's lock down reaction to all data and persons who attempted to relay information about the virus. Can't imagine why anyone would find that suspicious...
Look, we divided Germany in half just so they can never rape Nanking again. They are civilized now. Stop defaming for something that happened centuries ago.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
Forget it, he's rolling.
OK. That was funny.
Nothing is going to happen. People all of the world suffered tremendous, tangible damage and no one will be held accountable. And it will happen again. Because no one will be held accountable.
Because the COVID response was more harmful than COVID itself
Many times over.
There aren’t enough lamp posts for those responsible.
When the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, did they get to walk away?
Those wily Germans.
"When the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor"
Freudian slip?
Bluto.
"The U.S. Department of Energy has concluded that the most likely origin of COVID-19 is a lab leak."
Anyone in these agencies ever heard of Occam's Razor? It is just dumbfounding that the most plausible explanation turned out to be true, huh?
But no; someone picked a narrative and took a side [with all those contrary just being too deplorable, conservative, whatever] and stick with it.
Oh well, it's old news now, right? Only a clinger would beleaguer such a point and not move on.
What difference, at this point, can it possibly make?
To be fair, it might wake up the un-woke so it can be prevented from occurring again.....as long as we remember.
Since the Energy Department has merely a low level of confidence in its assessment. I think I'll wait for NASA, the Nuclear Regulatory Agency, and the American Society of Heating and Air Manufacturers to come out with their reports on the matter.
Piano Tuners Local 419
Anything from the heating and air people would be A SHAM.
Yeah those HVAC guys are pretty shifty.
Well, it's pretty certain that the ships HVAC systems spread it around you know.
Late 16th century scientists: "What? We NEVER said that Copernicus' heliocentric theory was wrong. EVERYONE always knew the earth orbited around the sun."
And Galileo remained on house arrest for the duration of his life.
SHAME ON YOU [for contradicting our false narrative]!
So that's not it then. That leaves two possibilities (not mutually exclusive):
(1) Minitruth is looking for reason to justify a war with China.
(2) It actually leaked from a US or Ukraine lab and Minitruth is trying to cover it up.
Pretty sure it has already been established as being US taxpayer funded.
Every Democrat even at this moment……… “Nut uh; That’s just a racist right-wing conspiracy theory!!!!” /s
Think that’s over-stated? The right-wing conspiracy-theory was used at least 5-Times at the ‘weaponization’ hearings by elected Democratic Congressmen who apparently think the Twitter files evidence is still just a conspiracy theory …. and lets not forget that Biden’s laptop is still just a Russian hoax.
Inside the halls of the lefts name-calling justice system.
Brandon further toes the ww3 waters.
Well, how else are we going to get those darn Ruskys? They invaded Ukraine you know? Blew Hunter's chances of making a decent living and all.
It's quite simple really, most people who talked about the lab leak theory were somewhere to the right of Josef Stalin, therefore lab leak = racist. QED.
Which is why the media worked so hard to squash and discredit the theory. Especially since the main culprit behind funding the research was the agency led by St. Fauci, the NIAID.
It even led to the anti-Asian hate legislation that some of those awful R's refused to support. You know good and well that a bunch of young black men cold cocking old ass Asians is definitely Trump's fault.
I read just the other day that, since his retirement he's on the speech making stump.......at a hundred grand per engagement.
Yeah, it's those billionaires and their nasty profit motive that just muck things up and don't care who it hurts.
In hindsight, it's astonishing how credulously—how gullibly—many journalists bought into obvious Chinese government spin.
Is it really that astonishing?
This is so ridiculous. I mean come on, global bat virus pandemic starts in the same place where they were working on making bat-viruses more able to infect humans? Just a coincidence? Hardly.
Sure, that’s why it was credible. But that isn’t proof.
But, it's reason enough to investigate and question. However, if anyone questioned the narrative, people, including you, Mike, went out and condemned, denigrated, and told us that it was biased, racist, and wrong to question the narrative.
Much like challenges to suspicious activities related to the 2020 election.
It shouldn’t be a cautionary tale. The cautionary tale should be the thousands of gallows that ought to be constructed to hang those who foisted Covid on us, and for those complicit in Covid fuckery after the fact, including the censorious fucks at social media companies.
Let’s not also forget that Twitter, FB, et al weren’t acting of their own volition. At least not completely. Those entities censored us at the behest of the FBI.
There are simply not enough lamp posts or woodchippers on the planet to punish those responsible for 2020 onwards. No one outside of a fall guy or 2 will face any consequences. All of these government and tech assholes will keep right on with their bullshit and being accepted as experts.
Hey. What are you talking about? You don't equate these people to modern day Nazis or something? That's the province of leftists who call everyone who doesn't get on board with their agenda a Nazi.
The push to label the lab leak thesis a racist conspiracy theory now looks even more foolish.
Even I admit we're quite a ways past this point and have been for a while. You can use the metric of our local Branch Covidian commenters, and how their argument (quite a while ago) moved from:
Shut up racist
to
Who cares what the origin of the virus was? (this is a variation on: What difference, at this point, does it make)
Can you point to even one example of someone here in the commentariat saying someone was racist for believing in the lab theory?
Let's start with Lord of Strazele calling it BS here: https://reason.com/2021/05/24/new-life-for-wuhan-lab-leak-hypothesis/?comments=true#comment-8917564
From the Volokh side: https://reason.com/volokh/2020/05/06/was-the-new-coronavirus-accidentally-released-from-a-wuhan-lab/?comments=true#comment-8243513
White Knight, aka YOU! calling the lab leak unsubstantiated.
https://reason.com/2020/10/14/trump-can-end-census-now-says-supreme-court-in-ruling-that-could-have-big-impact-on-house-seats/?comments=true#comment-8519648
The White Knight
Are you advancing as fact the unsubstantiated belief that SARS-CoV-2 leaked from a Chinese lab?
I've forgotten the number of lefty shits who no longer bore us.
I prefer to think that some of them are dead. Like Hihn.
This is a good thread to post this in, btw.
An excellent analysis of the fall of Sam Harris from a former Harris Superfan.
He was canceled by the left for being too anti-Muslim and then hitching up to the scum grifter Weinstein bros and company. Now he's being canceled by the right for distancing himself from them and endorsing getting vaccinated. Poor guy can't win.
He's not "being cancelled" for being pro-vaccine. Conservatives are not cancelling him at all (he opposes us, after all, so we did not cancel or promote him). He's being "cancelled" because his schtick of being intellectual above all has been pierced beyond repair.
Today's Joseph R. McCarthy?
Of course I always use "cancel" ironically, considering it always means "still able to spew your opinions to billions of people."
We express our ideas. You spew your opinions.
You're saving face after getting proven wrong. Maybe this Sam guy isn't so bright after all. He even thought it was ethical to kill religious people. If he has things his way, we won't go down withouta fight. Deus vult!
I bet there is a bit of crossover of those who bought the lab leak as bullshit believe there's a video of Trump being peed on.
""In hindsight, it's astonishing how credulously—how gullibly—many journalists bought into obvious Chinese government spin.""
I wasn't journalist buying into the Chinese government spin. It was so called journalist that were on a mission to save the world from anything Trump said. The lab leak theory became controversial after Trump mentioned it.
As far as I know, there was no dogmatic position on the origin of the virus on "the left," since "the left" generally is OK with waiting for evidence to surface before making judgments. Whether it originated in the market or in a lab carries no political or moral component to us, assuming it was an accident either way. The information is only useful to the extent that it can teach us about how to prevent future illnesses.
It's not totally baffling why authorities and social media platforms would want to minimize wild speculation on the right in this matter, since their every breath has a political component.
Why does it matter where it originated? Isn't it because it feeds one of their countless tiresome conspiracy theories?
One story here is what science says happened. The other story is right-wing assholes wallowing in confirmation bias about how this was a Chinese plot or whatever and also vaccines are bad. None of this would matter to anyone if Trumpers would just stay off the internet and stop trying to have thoughts.
""It’s not totally baffling why authorities and social media platforms would want to minimize wild speculation on the right in this matter, since their every breath has a political component.""
It wasn't wild speculation on the right. The lab leak theory was always within the realm of possibility. A lab leak as the origin was politicized and weaponized. You post shows how deep some people fell for the weaponization.
The problem is certainty in the face of no evidence.
I'm not bothered by this that much. Now that the Chinese are on Putin's side, and hence Tucker Carlson's side, I barely hear any of that stuff anymore.
Why should Republicans continue to make China a scapegoat when there are so many transgender young people right here?
The problem is certainty in the face of no evidence.
The problem is the certainty in the face of evidence to the contrary, AKA gaslighting.
Dissemble, deflect, distract. You hit all 3 in a 3 sentence post, fantastic! Sarc and White Mike can only dream of doing what you do.
I wasn't aware that you required to have evidence of an opinion that is factually correct. Only in the minds of morons is being correct not good enough.
""The problem is certainty in the face of no evidence.""
Certainty was a problem.
Some people were so certain that it wasn't a lab leak they called it disinformation. Then ridiculed those for believing it was possible and had social media remove posts mentioning it.
Some people were so certain of their opinion that all others were disinformation.
Who was certain?
Your allies in the media.
And yet, there is evidence, yet you were certain the Wuhan Lab Leak was wrong and your side did everything they could to censor that thought.
You accuse us of being certain "without evidence" (but there is), yet claim, without evidence, that Tucker Carlson is pro-Russia? You are lying.
Republicans are rightfully going after China and at the same time are calling out transgenderism for the pseudoscience it is. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
s far as I know, there was no dogmatic position on the origin of the virus on “the left,” since “the left”
Tony's a great example of the "scramble for the middle".
"We never said _________________"
Umm, here's the video, the transcript, the photographs and the DNA evidence.
SHUT UP RACIST!
It's Tony, so he went with SHUT UP TRANSPHOBE!
"As far as I know, there was no dogmatic position on the origin of the virus on “the left,” since “the left” generally is OK with waiting for evidence to surface before making judgments."
The list of things you do not know is growing.
You could get banned from social media for questioning it. You'd be called a racist by, well, the only group who tries to weaponize racism for questioning it.
The Left is exceptionally opposed to the concept of evidence.
"Whether it originated in the market or in a lab carries no political or moral component to us, assuming it was an accident either way. The information is only useful to the extent that it can teach us about how to prevent future illnesses."
Then why did the Left demand nobody question whether a lab was the cause of COVID and not "Heh, stupid Chinese folks cannot stop eating bats!!"?
"It’s not totally baffling why authorities and social media platforms would want to minimize wild speculation on the right in this matter, since their every breath has a political component."
Being wrong must be a total bitch.
So, the Left has no concern about questions...but only if the Right is not the one doing it, it seems.
"Why does it matter where it originated? Isn’t it because it feeds one of their countless tiresome conspiracy theories?"
Shocking to see a Leftist go from "question it and you're a bigot!" to "Who really cares outside of evil conservatives?" so quickly. Is gaslighting your first language?
"One story here is what science says happened. The other story is right-wing assholes wallowing in confirmation bias about how this was a Chinese plot or whatever and also vaccines are bad. None of this would matter to anyone if Trumpers would just stay off the internet and stop trying to have thoughts."
Nice fascism, son.
Tony is the result of when someone is so far down the rabbit hole of their political religion that operating in reality is no longer possible.
You people have a real hard time distinguishing between "the left" and "large corporations."
This is shitbag’s ‘big lie’ effort: Tell a whopper ridiculous enough and no one will bother to correct it, assuming the asshole posting it is too stupid to understand any correction.
Distinction without a difference these days.
The two are not mutually exclusive and you know it. See Google for an example.
Your dishonesty disgusts me. Repent of your lies.
'since “the left” generally is OK with waiting for evidence to surface before making judgments'
On what planet???????
Jussie smollett and the Covington kids being prime examples of the left “waiting for evidence to surface before making judgements.”
This dude is delusional. It would sad if he wasn’t such an asshole.
Why does it matter where it originated?
If it doesn't matter, why are you here frantically begging people to stop talking about it?
Whether it originated in the market or in a lab carries no political or moral component to us, assuming it was an accident either way.
But it does, since if it did come from the lab, then the whole pandemic was 100% preventable. And our 'top medical authority' assured us that this was impossible, impossible he says!
One story here is what science says happened.
It's gotten to be such a knee-jerk stance for Democrats to present their opinions as "the Science Speaking."
What science is involved in realizing this lab leaked the virus and the WHO and governments around the world worked overtime to hide it and vilify anyone who pointed it out?
Do you remember when Biden announced a 90-day investigatory blitz to get to the bottom of where this came from come Hell or high water? Do you recall what happened with that?
The 90-day clock ran out and Biden threw up his hands and said "I guess we'll never know!"
This was after the lab leak theory was already the only one with any evidence behind it at all.
"Science" - please stop using this word. You don't know what it means.
It was 100% preventable regardless. They could have not deforested that bit of China and put a wet market there.
The only people being incredibly selective about when they trust government agencies is y'all. Believe them when they tell you what you want to hear, disbelieve otherwise. It's no way to go through life.
"...The only people being incredibly selective about when they trust government agencies is y’all..."
This is shitbag's 'big lie' effort: Tell a whopper ridiculous enough and no one will bother to correct it, assuming the asshole posting it is too stupid to understand any correction.
I take your inability to make a relevant comment as confirmation that you have no real response.
Note how he's now repeating VendicarD's lie that it was definitely from a wet market.
"...“Science” – please stop using this word. You don’t know what it means."
Add that to a very long list:
Tony|9.7.17 @ 4:43PM|#
"I don't consider taxing and redistribution to be either forced or charity."
Yay, Tony's back. Now do masks.
where the virus came from will probably never be known for sure. the problem with the lab leak origin theory was never if it was possible or not, it was the absolutely insane hyperbole those obsessed with that possibility tended to jump to. it was a bio weapon, it was intentional, and a whole host of stupid ideas that require zero knowledge of what "gain of function" testing actually is. (big hint.... it is a test FOR gain of a function, not one where functions are added.) the reason there can be doubt is that the virus that ultimately ended up in the human population came from the same place.... an animal.... the only difference is if that initial exposure happened because of poor controls at a lab or an uncontrolled exposure to the animal directly somewhere else. at the end of the day it really makes no difference. at most, a lab leak could have caused a pandemic that was destined to happen within a year or two on it's own.
it is like being someone who thinks vaccine mandates are wrong..... and when you try to explain why, your voice gets drowned out by the nutters who want to scream all day about how the vaccine will kill us all.... and that is the straw man the oppressors concentrate on.
where the virus came from will probably never be known for sure.
No, because it was leaked from a lab. That's why it will never be known, just like the 1977 lab leaked flu. Had it come from nature, they probably would have known within about two months.
the problem with the lab leak origin theory was never if it was possible or not, it was the absolutely insane hyperbole those obsessed with that possibility tended to jump to.
What difference, at this point, does it make?
"What difference, at this point, does it make?"
kind of demonstrating my point.... i've never supported Hillary in any way. but some extremist nutter on the opposing side has done so, giving you this nice little straw man to attack instead of what i actually said. this is what rational people are running into all the time. every time i try to explain why the government should not mandate vaccines, those who disagree fall back on the softball targets of "vaccines will kill you"/"bio-weapon"/etc. the problem with stupid arguments is that rational arguments get ignored in their name.
You missed the sarcasm, slimy pile of lefty shit.
Virus emanated from the Wuhan Institute of Virology. The place with the notable safety violations, followed by total containment by the Chinese government regarding any information regarding the virus.
Seems plausible...in fact it appears to be the most plausible explanation.
Now as for "hyperbole obsessed with [that] possibility," and "intentional" and "a whole host of stupid ideas...," seems that someone is really trying hard to stoke the flames of conspiracy here. That and eating sour grapes because they clung to a fallacious belief.
Oh yeah, at this point what difference does it make, right? Just move and and forget about it; is that what the smart people are saying now?
"seems that someone is really trying hard to stoke the flames of conspiracy here. That and eating sour grapes because they clung to a fallacious belief. "
WTF are you talking about? if you think I'm making those stupid arguments up, you should read the other comments right here on this page. and i have no idea what "fallacious belief" you think i clung to. (but it is a fair bet that you are wrong.)
Bigger hint: "Gain of function testing" may be observation, but "gain of function research" absolutely involves modifying organisms to see if they can be made, and therefore could become, more dangerous to humans. You're either intentionally trying to mislead people, or you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
"And" works even better than "or".
Curious: Why did you add “the fuck” to your comment? What triggered your decision to treat Foo_dd with animosity rather than calmly disagreeing with him?
What triggered your decision to treat Foo_dd with animosity rather than calmly disagreeing with him?
Because his arguments are dishonest and he is clearly not here for 'calm disagreement.'
" You’re either intentionally trying to mislead people, or you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about."
the irony in you saying this is off the fucking charts.
gain of function testing is introducing a viral sample to a culture of human cells. if there are any mutations that make the virus able to infect humans they go from being a small part of the sample to a dominate part of the sample. it is basically a way to see if certain mutations are there that the lab might not see on the initial sample because it isn't a dominate mutation. (because the mutation gave no benefit in the bat cells.) they take a viral load that has a very small chance to infect humans and turn it into a sample with a high chance to infect humans, but there is no direct modification of anything. the mutation being allowed to flourish is still naturally occurring.
the irony in you saying this is off the fucking charts.
Not really. Based on the sheer disingenuousness of your arguments it's really obvious that you're not here for honest discussion.
Notice how the second paragraph of your post is you pretending to understand what GOF research is and claiming that it isn't really even anything at all, no "direct modification" since it allows cellular processes to participate in the 'engineering.'
So, in essence, you've defined "genetic engineering" right out of existence.
But to be clear - in spite of your attempted redefinition of GOF, you're now fully admitting that this was GOF research, you're just now trying to tell us that GOF research is no big deal and nothing to be concerned about and we would have had this pandemic anyway.
Tell me then, if GOF research is really nothing at all, why was it banned?
Serial passaging is how the Ecohealth boys did much of their GOF research.
"Tell me then, if GOF research is really nothing at all, why was it banned?"
i have at multiple points explained why it is bad, but that does not make it exactly what you idiots think it is.
that does not make it exactly what you idiots think it is
This is really an especially useless response. What makes you think all of us idiots think the same thing, and how do you know what that thing is?
We've been told for years that no GOF research was happening in that lab and that GOF research is illegal. But here you are saying that, well, yes, okay, they are doing GOF research, but somebody somewhere doesn't understand what that is in quite the right way. And therefore the lab leak theory is wrong and the animal origin theory is correct, and really they're both the same theory because actually there's no such thing as GOF.
Do I have that about right?
"What makes you think all of us idiots think the same thing, and how do you know what that thing is?"
your own statements and your partisan hack need to attack me for deviating from the extremist narrative.
"We’ve been told for years that no GOF research was happening in that lab and that GOF research is illegal."
did I ever say that? no, i did not. i suggest that you are the one attributing beliefs to me that i have not expressed. (especially after the next bit.)
"And therefore the lab leak theory is wrong and the animal origin theory is correct, and really they’re both the same theory because actually there’s no such thing as GOF. "
that has got to be the most ridiculous deliberate misreading i have ever seen. i have very explicitly and repeatedly said that GOF is dangerous. i have explained that while the mutations are naturally existing the practice of GOF produces viruses with those mutations at a level where the risk of infection is much higher. (a haystack full of needles) and, i have said that the lab leak probably precipitated an inevitable pending outbreak by a couple of years.
but the partisan hack can only comprehend absolutes. it isn't enough to say it probably leaked from the lab, the lab might have been using GOF testing, (which is a dangerous tool) and that while inevitable, this pandemic might have been accelerated by those mistakes....... no, any attempt to give a deeper understanding or explain why the most extreme conspiracy theories are garbage MUST be an attempt to say none of those things are true..... it MUST be all or nothing.
Yes. His response sounded a lot like Fauci's smug responses to Sen Rand Paul at the hearings.
We knew, very early on, that there was no known link of COVID-19 to anything in nature. No link at all, which always exists.
Then this whole "Leftists did not really care" utter bullshit is tiresome. It was not conservatives banning people for asking questions about the official narrative. We were just, you know, 100% correct.
Here’s the problem with your being “100% correct”.
One can approach discourse as trying to arrive at truth or one can approach it as trying to score partisan points.
The right’s early jump to “it leaked from a lab” before there was enough evidence to conclude so was clearly motivated by a desire to win: to “own” the libs, to back them into a position where they look like they are apologists to China, to be in a position where if more evidence came along and really proved the theory they could say “I told you so”.
Full of shit, White Knight. It wasn't to "own the libs", it was due to what was there, and the likelihood of the occurrence.
Without a doubt, conservatives can only be correct out of spite. Incredible reasoning from one of the smartest people around. Keep being dumb, Mike.
""One can approach discourse as trying to arrive at truth or one can approach it as trying to score partisan points.""
Or one can try to ban the discourse for partisan points.
The problem isn't the origin of the virus. It's that a political party tried to ram down their version by censoring anything contrary to their version on social media. They ridiculed anyone who spoke on the contrary. That's not discourse.
"The right’s early jump to “it leaked from a lab” before there was enough evidence to conclude so was clearly motivated by a desire to win: to “own” the libs, to back them into a position where they look like they are apologists to China, to be in a position where if more evidence came along and really proved the theory they could say “I told you so”."
Ironically, there was even LESS evidence of it being from a wet market in Wuhan. Yet anything that didn't say that was correct was censored.
And it was not censored by the Right.
Ironically, there was even LESS evidence of it being from a wet market in Wuhan. Yet anything that didn’t say that was correct was censored.
^
There were tons of sources all over the Internet where one could read all about the lab leak theory. What you mean is posts were censored on Twitter, Facebook, and a few other social media sites. That is far from everything that was online.
Also, there was no important reason why anyone needed to jump to a conclusion one way or the other. What's so bad about reserving judgement?
No link at all, which always exists.
At this point, it’s pretty clear that no public school could teach the natural origin theory of COVID-19 without violating Tennessee v. Scopes.
"We knew, very early on, that there was no known link of COVID-19 to anything in nature."
here is the problem with that statement.... if there was nothing in nature linked to covid-19, then there was nothing in nature for the lab to be doing testing on..... and nothing they could have screwed up and leaked.
if there was nothing in nature linked to covid-19, then there was nothing in nature for the lab to be doing testing on….. and nothing they could have screwed up and leaked
Again, there's no way you seriously believe this argument, as it makes no sense right on the face of it. Which is why people are being rude to you.
You know full well that we were being told it must have come from animals not in the lab.
"Again, there’s no way you seriously believe this argument, as it makes no sense right on the face of it."
it just makes no sense because you are too stupid to understand the simplest of concepts.
it just makes no sense because you are too stupid to understand the simplest of concepts.
The simple concept that the lab both was and wasn't conducting GOF research at the same time?
Or the simple concept that "the virus leaked from an animal cell culture via the lab" is the same as "the virus was caught from an animal at the wet market or elsewhere?"
"The simple concept that the lab both was and wasn’t conducting GOF research at the same time?"
no, how GOF actually works.
"Or the simple concept that “the virus leaked from an animal cell culture via the lab” is the same as “the virus was caught from an animal at the wet market or elsewhere?”"
something i have never said.
zero knowledge of what “gain of function” testing actually is. (big hint…. it is a test FOR gain of a function, not one where functions are added.)
The testing does not add the function, but the genetic alterations that the research team made to the virus just before they tested it may have. Why else would they be testing for gain of function?
That is some amazingly stupid gaslighting.
like i said.... zero knowledge of what gain of function actually is.
the main use of GOF in a lab like this is to take uncommon mutations in the virus population that make the virus able to infect humans and make them more common in the sample so the researchers can see they are there. it is basically the magnet you want to use to find that needle in the haystack. the downside is that you end up with a stack of needles you are going to end up sticking yourself with. they are testing to see if it is close to gaining the function needed to infect human cells by providing an environment where that mutation is beneficial to the virus.
that is why they are doing the testing. now since you seem to think they were only doing the testing to check for some change they know they made, i have to ask..... why did you think they were doing it? and why do you think they made a change in the first place?
the downside is that you end up with a stack of needles you are going to end up sticking yourself with.
Yes - which would then cause the virus to leak out of the lab. Which is why GOF research was banned.
look at you fighting the strawman of something i never said labs should do.
Also, it was gain of function research that was maybe (definitely) being funded in part by the NIH, which was in direct violation of law. This could only have been approved by one of two people (Dr. Fauci or Dr. Collins), one of whom was going out of is way to cover his ass and any evidence of his involvement while simultaneously spearheading the response. Nevermind the sheer absurdity of the US borrowing trillions of dollars from China to give money to the Chinese to fund that sort of research.
“it is like being someone who thinks vaccine mandates are wrong….. and when you try to explain why, your voice gets drowned out by the nutters who want to scream all day about how the vaccine will kill us all…. and that is the straw man the oppressors concentrate on.”
Wise words. So many people don’t realize how they hurt their own cause by exaggerating it. Yet the exaggeration happens in partisan argument all the time: from environmentalists exaggerating about climate change to conservatives exaggerating about illegal immigrants.
Cite?
any reason discussion thread.
Then link it.
Citing Reason discussion threads as proof of anything is just plain dumbass.....on steroids.
So you have none; not at all surprising from a lying pile of lefty shit.
“the only difference is if that initial exposure happened because of poor controls at a lab or an uncontrolled exposure to the animal directly somewhere else. at the end of the day it really makes no difference. at most, a lab leak could have caused a pandemic that was destined to happen within a year or two on it’s own.
Virus research labs don’t grow viruses in animals. They grow them in cell cultures. And as far as I know, no one cultures bat cells, so they almost definitely used some other cells, possibly human origin cells since they are abundantly available and of most scientific interest.
So you could have a virus either adapted to infect human cells or a chimera engineered to infect human cells. Also when labs produce viruses, they over-express; they make billions of times more virus than a bat ever could. In such a case it was not inevitable that the virus would ever naturally cross over to humans without human intervention.
As I point out below, it's a stupid, stupid "I only fuck goats for observational purposes." argument.
He claims others are misinformed or manufacturing conspiracies while delivering blatant lies of his own.
The "caused a pandemic that was destined to happen within a year or two on it's own." is abject bullshit on a level beyond what anyone saying "It was an engineered bioweapon." is saying. Again, as I point out below, it's like saying somebody getting drunk, getting behind the wheel and running over 6M people's grandma's is OK because they were drunk and didn't mean it and those grandma's weren't going to live very long anyway. He's got no fucking clue, he's just shilling for people who, accidentally or intentionally, killed 6M people.
Nuanced discussion simply doesn’t happen anymore. Everything is framed in extremist measures by extremists. It’s what gets ratings. It’s what gets people fired up. It’s what gets clicks.
I joke that moderates are hated more than anyone because they take the air out of the room. People like to be righteous and rigid fighting binary evil to their enlightened good.
Therefore, when a moderate comes along to explain that the issue is not as remotely extreme as is being portrayed, both sides come down on that person for ruining the righteous condemnation fun.
I’ll never forgot the comment I read way back where a person was angry because they didn’t want a full discussion of a matter, they only wanted to hear the part that made the other political team look bad. It was indicative of the underlying concern that people actually don’t want to be objectively right, they simply like the game of politics and to be politically and narratively winners.
The statement "a lab leak could have caused a pandemic that was destined to happen within a year or two on it’s own" is neither moderate, nor objective.
The evil isn't binary, it's singular, and the people who oppose it are not righteous, they simply aren't so singularly evil.
What?
i think he just wanted to underline the point you were making. anything not 100% aligned with his version of bullshit is the most evil thing ever.
I mean, it was almost parody that he responded the way he did to my comment.
Read what you wrote. It's a Tony-style, self-contradicting mess You don't want a nuanced, moderate, full discussion on the matter, you want to pretend it's hyperbolic idiots shouting at each other equally. You rather transparently, want to pretend that's what it is because then Foo_dd, and yourself, don't have to withstand any legitimate scrutiny.
Which is why you respond in Huh?/Wazzat?/No comprende fashion or just ignore statements like:
The statement “a lab leak could have caused a pandemic that was destined to happen within a year or two on it’s own” is neither moderate, nor objective.
If you really don't understand what that sentence means, then you've got no business judging who is and who isn't having discussion about axiomatic evil or diametrically opposed moral forces.
I didn't make that statement. If you wanted to respond to that statement you needed to respond to Foo_dd. I actually don't agree with that statement by Foo_dd. But that wasn't the point of my response. This is the reason I asked you "what" because your point wasn't with me.
And it shows with this additional word salad response to me accusing me of not wanting a nuanced response but rather wanting to avoid legitimate scrutiny. I mean, what the hell are you getting at here?
I actually don’t agree with that statement by Foo_dd.
So you know what the words mean, you just chose not to have a full discussion and, instead, went with “What?” without any clarity as to what part of the post, if any, you didn’t understand? Do you not know how the internet works? How quotation marks work? How English works? If you don’t understand that, how can we assume you’re correct about moderates and zealots of any one of myriads of sociopolitical leanings?
Again, regardless of Foo_dd’s statements, your own post is contradictory. Do you want a moderate discussion or do you want a full discussion? Because the full discussion is going to include the plain stupid assertions like Foo_dd makes (and which you disagree with) and people rightly calling him a dishonest dumbass for making them. If you can’t reliably distinguish between moderate and full discussions, how can we assume your reliability between moderation and zealotry? Evidence, wholly provided by you, would suggest that we can’t and that really, you either firmly believe that you’re the only moderate and everyone else but you is crazy (like any other oblivious, self-righteous zealot) or you’re, whether you realize it or not, full of shit. Or both.
Great observation!
I'm old compared to most here. I can say from experience, that it wasn't always this way.
What caused the change? Why is everything so extreme?
I don't know. I honestly can't understand the extremity at this point.
"I'm not a goat fucker because I don't fuck goats for pleasure, only for testing purposes." - Foo_dd
Foo_dd would run over your Mother with your car and then explain to you how it was your fault and no big deal because she was going to die in a few years anyway. He almost certainly doesn't act like this in normal life because people would feed him his own teeth.
oh go fuck yourself you moronic bullshit spouting piece of trash.
there are hundreds of viruses that are part of the common cold. every one of them started like covid 19. covid 19 will eventually be another one of them. for the lab to be able to screw up and cause the release, the virus had to be close already.... this pandemic was coming one way or another, eventually. sorry if you are too determined to be an asshole to cope with that reality.
"...for the lab to be able to screw up and cause the release, the virus had to be close already…. this pandemic was coming one way or another, eventually..."
We're at the 'it really isn't bad' stage of lefty-asshole excuses.
BTW, this steaming pile of shit was, several weeks ago, equating the Russki gifs with US government officials' attempts to manipulate the news in Biden's favor. His ability to excuse ANY government maleficence would be amazing if it weren't so despicable.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
this pandemic was coming one way or another, eventually. sorry if you are too determined to be an asshole to cope with that reality.
Do you even know that your projections aren't, in fact, reality? So sad that you choose to inflict your mental impairment on others in such a fashion.
"Do you even know that your projections aren’t, in fact, reality? "
why don't you go play Russian roulette over and over again? i mean, it isn't a certainty that you will eventually shoot yourself.
why don’t you go play Russian roulette over and over again? i mean, it isn’t a certainty that you will eventually shoot yourself.
That's a pretty solid argument for why that lab shouldn't have been engaging in GOF research.
"That’s a pretty solid argument for why that lab shouldn’t have been engaging in GOF research."
show me where i have ever said they should.
Foo_dd would run over your Mother with your car and then explain to you how it was your fault and no big deal because she was going to die in a few years anyway.
this pandemic was coming one way or another
“Whether I was sober and hit your Mom with your car, drunk and hit your Mom with your car, or she stepped in front of a bus next week, your Mom was going to get hit by a moving vehicle at some point soon.” – Foo_dd
"Whether I was sober and fucked a goat for pleasure, drunk and fucked a goat for testing purposes, or the goat got fucked by another goat the next week, the goat was going to get fucked at some point. Me fucking a goat, another goat fucking the goat next week. Same thing." - Foo_dd
the problem with the lab leak origin theory was never if it was possible or not
Then why did Fauci claim it was impossible?
the reason there can be doubt is that the virus that ultimately ended up in the human population came from the same place…. an animal
This argument is so disingenuous as to be self-parody.
"All that plutonium in that bomb came from nature originally, and all of it would have been mashed together explosively eventually!"
And really, you're equivocating, anyway. The "animal theory" vs. the "lab theory" was not whether or not the cells themselves ultimately, somewhere in their history, had animal origins. It was whether it came out of the lab or out of direct exposure to the animals at the wet market.
There is absolutely no evidence of the animal theory and there never was, but here you are pretending that there was some moment when it was "the Reasonable Assumption" despite actual evidence of the lab leak theory that was right there from the very beginning.
There is absolutely no evidence of the animal theory and there never was,
And theory grows more incredulous by the day. If the virus were so abundant, prolific, and similarly functional, it would've turned up somewhere rather quickly. The fact that we still haven't found it or anything tracing back to it belies the falsehood of the theory.
As I point out above, it's essentially arguing in favor of creationism. This virus literally just sprung out of nowhere.
"Then why did Fauci claim it was impossible?"
WTF makes you think i like Faucci or give two fucks what he said?
"This argument is so disingenuous as to be self-parody. "
in other words, so obvious and clear you can't dare acknowledge it or your whole narrative dissolves.
"And really, you’re equivocating, anyway. The “animal theory” vs. the “lab theory” was not whether or not the cells themselves ultimately, somewhere in their history, had animal origins."
so, after trying to dismiss the point, you want to try and move the goal posts to pretend the point does not actually matter.
" It was whether it came out of the lab or out of direct exposure to the animals at the wet market."
since you have been butting in at multiple points on this thread, you have read much of what i have said..... and you know i have never at any point claimed it didn't come from the lab. you are a pathetic partisan hack who just can't help but attack anything less than 100% devotion to the most extreme nonsense. i have quite consistently said that the lab leak was a reasonable theory and that the problem was the jump to lunacy some took from that position. me not liking the lunacy is why your pathetic ass wants to attack, but you are such a brainwashed partisan hack that you have to pretend i am saying something i am not.... because you are too dedicated to the partisanship to have any original thoughts.
"...i have quite consistently said that the lab leak was a reasonable theory and that the problem was the jump to lunacy some took from that position..."
Are you familiar with 'poisoning the well', asshole? You just did.
Fuck off and die, pile of lefty shit.
fuck off and die, fuck off and die.... SQUAWK!!!!
You have no argument.
WTF makes you think i like Faucci or give two fucks what he said?
Why not just answer the question, then?
me not liking the lunacy is why your pathetic ass wants to attack, but you are such a brainwashed partisan hack that you have to pretend i am saying something i am not
As a refresher, here's the argument you made at the top of this thread:
the reason there can be doubt is that the virus that ultimately ended up in the human population came from the same place…. an animal…. the only difference is if that initial exposure happened because of poor controls at a lab or an uncontrolled exposure to the animal directly somewhere else. at the end of the day it really makes no difference. at most, a lab leak could have caused a pandemic that was destined to happen within a year or two on it’s own.
If you look back at what I've been saying you'll find that I'm critiquing this assertion that whether or not it came from the lab doesn't matter.
And this is what you're being called out on. For years we were told by the media, academia, and all of the government authorities that this was an impossible, crazy conspiracy theory. Now that a government authority is finally admitting that yes, there is reason to seriously entertain this theory, here you are dismissing the lab leak as no big deal using some almost comically fallacious argumentation and calling people paranoid partisan lunatics for still caring about it.
I'm not asking you to defend Fauci - if you dislike Fauci so much and are here and now freely admitting that he lied about the GOF research and lied about the lab leak being impossible, why do you think he did that?
"Why not just answer the question, then?"
it isn't relevant. i have not and will not ever try to defend anything that man has ever said. the only reason you even bring him up is that he makes a good straw man to fight instead of anything i actually said.
"If you look back at what I’ve been saying you’ll find that I’m critiquing this assertion that whether or not it came from the lab doesn’t matter. "
i see.... it is that partisan hack all or nothing thing again.... you are having a hard time seeing the ways i have said it DOES matter and are totally fixated on me pointing out that this virus ultimately came from natural processes and would have happened eventually. my point was not that it "doesn't matter," it was that the virus is not as deliberately and directly modified as you guys seem to think. the end result, meaning the virus we ended up with, is the same.
but by the lab leaking it instead of identifying it ahead of time we did lose the potential warning and potential to prepare for it ahead of time. (the biggest challenge with the pandemic was that it was at community spread world wide before we had any ability to test for it anywhere.... like we do for SARS and MERS) when i say "no difference," i don't necessarily mean "no big deal." i only mean that we are dealing with the same virus.
"And this is what you’re being called out on. For years we were told by the media, academia, and all of the government authorities that this was an impossible, crazy conspiracy theory."
i am none of those.
"Now that a government authority is finally admitting that yes, there is reason to seriously entertain this theory, here you are dismissing the lab leak as no big deal......"
I'll give you this one opportunity to recognize your mistake in what you thought i was saying. "no difference" =/= "no big deal." i am debunking the "evil China deliberately made this" garbage that most lab leak enthusiasts seem stuck on.
"I’m not asking you to defend Fauci – if you dislike Fauci so much and are here and now freely admitting that he lied about the GOF research and lied about the lab leak being impossible, why do you think he did that?"
you REALLY want to talk about him, don't you? i don't care why he did it. his early flip flop on masks, and then admitting he did it for political reasons completely destroyed any credibility he had and he should have been fired on the spot. the damage he did to the reputation of the "official" sources is exactly why so many people are willing to listen to twitter crack-pots in the first place. what else he lied about and why means nothing to me.
"...the problem with the lab leak origin theory was never if it was possible or not, it was the absolutely insane hyperbole those obsessed with that possibility tended to jump to..."
So using taxpayer money to fund research illegal in the US isn't the problem; the problem is what conclusions those not favored by lefty shits might draw?
You got 'way more issues than an inability to find the shift key, asshole.
fuck off and die, fuck off and die.....
Fuck off and die, shit-pile.
Every time you pull in these stupid gripes about GDI, Robby, you just help to prove their assessment accurate. This piece is exemplary. The DOE didn't "endorse" anything, and you're awful surly about the NYT's choice to contextualize the DOE data point as just one assessment among several.
It's inconvenient, isn't it? How Joe Biden asked his agencies to come to a conclusion on what they think happened, and then they come to different conclusions based on the intelligence they review?
As for the initial claims about the "lab leak" hypothesis - so, I'm sorry, but did we know more about it then? Or were we just jumping to conclusions in an attempt to vilify China, spin a tale about Fauci and "gain of function" research, and evade blame for the outbreaks within the US? Because I seem to recall that most of the discussion back then didn't have much more to work with than a few reported cases around the Wuhan lab, if that.
To be sure - we should investigate and follow the truth where it leads. But to say that's what Trump was concerned with, or the other lab-leak promoters, is just another layer of misinformation. You're trying to rewrite the record and memory-hole what was actually said and believed, in light of new developments.
(You may want to look up the definition of “exemplary”. It was confusing because your comment is a detailed list of reasons his post isn’t exemplary.)
bat soup conclusion
Pretty sure that's "bat-shit" conclusion; look who posted it.
“where the virus came from will probably never be known for sure. the problem with the lab leak origin theory was never if it was possible or not, it was the absolutely insane hyperbole those obsessed with that possibility tended to jump to. it was a bio weapon, it was intentional, and a whole host of stupid ideas that require zero knowledge of what “gain of function” testing actually is. (big hint…. it is a test FOR gain of a function, not one where functions are added.) the reason there can be doubt is that the virus that ultimately ended up in the human population came from the same place…. an animal…. the only difference is if that initial exposure happened because of poor controls at a lab or an uncontrolled exposure to the animal directly somewhere else. at the end of the day it really makes no difference. at most, a lab leak could have caused a pandemic that was destined to happen within a year or two on it’s own.”
Except that we know what the sought for Gain of Function was: making the virus more contagious. We know it because that was what the USG (read Fauci here) paid for, and what the same company proposed for DARPA funding. Their rationale for funding it sounded perfect rational at the time. The problem was that the money ultimately went to WIV, with its known safety issues, and that it is located in a Communist country, where workplace safety is honored more in the breach, than in reality. That is the real question – how could anyone rationally have believed that the ChiComs could do that research safely? This is a regime that has the blood of tens of millions on its hands, and lest anyone believe that they have forsworn that, are well known to currently be forcibly organ harvesting from its restive Muslim population.
Imagine the problems in whistle blowing, in such a totalitarian state – we don’t have to imagine it, we know what happened, with the whistleblowers having been arrested and sent to reeducation camps. Lab safety costs money, so it is often ignored, so, for example, no longer needed lab animals aren’t always destroyed, but sometimes snuck out of the lab and sold in the infamous Wuhan Wet Market. (Pretty sure that didn’t happen here, because that would have very likely resulted in the spike proteins being detuned from Human ACE 2 receptors, when it crossed the species boundary).
One problem is that in an advanced communist economy, most everyone lies, because they have to, to survive. At one plant, they are given quotas based on having received enough components and raw materials. The managers back in Beijing give out these quotas assuming perfect performance all up and down the economy. But if someone along the line screws up, the ripple effect is that everyone downstream suffers. But shortages of quality components and raw materials as inputs doesn’t justify missing your own production quotas, etc. So to keep their jobs, and avoid a tour of a reeducation camp, everyone cheats, and everyone lies. The advantage that the ChiComs have over the Soviets, is that the Han Chinese have historically been highly entrepreneurial. Someone is going to sell those lab animals, instead of destroying them, if they can.
What I find perfectly plausible is that the money for the research was both Chinese and American. We sent the money there, because the research couldn’t legally be done in the US. It looked plausible on paper. They developed a more dangerous SARS type virus (almost assuredly, by now, through gene editing – too many fingerprints of that in the genetic code of the virus) for testing. It’s a BSL level 4 lab, and that should have protected everyone. Except maybe some of the research may have been done at a BSL L 2 lab across town, because it would have been cheaper, with the difference ending up in someone’s pocket. The virus then escaped, probably due to the laxity in safety and conscientiousness the ChiComs are known for. The lab, and then the city, panicked, and tried to cover it up while they controlled the damage. Then the province or district did the same. Everyone lying and hiding the problem along the way. And finally, the worst happened, and Beijing found out and got involved. By then though, critical time had elapsed, and it was too late to control the virus, though they continued to try their mightiest, for the next 2 1/2 years. I don’t think that the lab release was intentional, but rather negligence bolstered by the climate of carelessness endemic in communist economies.
first thing to note, in gain of function testing they are accenting existing mutations to make them more visible. they give the virus sample a nice dish of human cells and see what comes out. if there are any mutations in the sample that make it easier to infect human cells, those mutations become prevalent and easier to see in the outcome. (while they might not be visible in the original sample because those mutations have no benefit in the original sample and would have a lower occurrence rate.) the whole purpose of this kind of research is to find mutations that happen at such a low rate we might not otherwise know they were there.
so, while they end up with a sample that can easily infect humans, they don't make or modify anything. they take something that exists naturally in an animal and give it an environment where being able to infect human cells is beneficial. the goal is never to make a virus able to infect humans, it is to see if that ability already exists.... because otherwise we probably won't find out until after it has happened. nobody tries to make something that can infect humans "just because." (which is something many obsessed with the lab don't seem to get. there is absolutely nothing to be gained by making a virus like this on purpose. there is no practical application for it.)
now, that does not make it smart, especially with poor safety controls and protocols. i generally look at most governments as incompetent corrupt things that need a committee to figure out how to change a light bulb. so, i really have no interest in the nationalism on that one, since the whole reason there was a moratorium on the process in the US was bio-security screw ups here. (part of what makes GOF testing so risky is that people are fallible.)
in gain of function testing they are accenting existing mutations to make them more visible. . . . if there are any mutations in the sample that make it easier to infect human cells, those mutations become prevalent
* * *
so, while they end up with a sample that can easily infect humans, they don’t make or modify anything
Which is it?
If I add yeast to wet flour, have I not made bread?
accenting existing mutations
You* mean rike spike plotein, you fucking letald?
So, so very... very... full of shit.
*Aimed at whomever’s behind the gray box.
"so, while they end up with a sample that can easily infect humans, they don’t make or modify anything"
it really is not that complicated.... you are just a moron.
You're right, it's not that complicated; you're a fucking ignoramus.
Fuck off and die, shit-pile.
it really is not that complicated…. you are just a moron.
I picked two sentences out of what you wrote. Read them both, slowly, over and over again, until you see how they contradict one another.
Interesting. Are you by any chance an attorney?
This sounds very much like the kinds of "alternative scenarios" that an attorney I worked with would come up with and present in court to create that ever so important, reasonable doubt in the minds of jurors.
Interesting stories perhaps. But lacking any evidentiary basis. Just pure speculation from my perspective. He would just laugh at me and say they're plausible. And as long as that created doubt in one juror's mind, he'd done his job.
“it is like being someone who thinks vaccine mandates are wrong….. and when you try to explain why, your voice gets drowned out by the nutters who want to scream all day about how the vaccine will kill us all…. and that is the straw man the oppressors concentrate on.”
The evidence about how dangerous the vaccines are continues to mount quickly. By now, it’s enough to make your blood curdle, if it doesn’t clot too quickly due to the Wuhan spike proteins generated by the mRNA riding around the circulatory system in the blood. The scary thing is that the FDA, etc are supposed to protect us from this sort of thing. Instead they have been in the lead in covering up their part in the whole mess. They approved the vaccines for experimental use, with minimal, almost nonexistent, testing, and over two years later, the Emergency continues, as conveniently do the EUAs. Much of the testing that was skipped, was done for speed in getting the vaccines into our shoulders, lymph nodes, blood supply, hearts, etc (we just found out that the lymph nodes were the target from the first, and the claim that the mRNA would stay in the shoulder was always a lie). They had the time to do the tests over those subsequent 2 years, but most never were, at least by Pfizer and Moderna. They were ordered to test for Myocarditis and Pericarditis. The tests were supposed to be done in 6/22, and the results were due in 12/22. Pfizer missed that date, and is now promising 6/23, and the FDA signed off on that. Fertility and pregnancy issues were supposed to be tested before release to women in their childbearing years. Pfizer tested 22 mice with their vaccines, and 22 with a placebo. The number of miscarries doubled for the vaccinated. No matter, they declared the doubling not statistically significant (because the numbers of samples was so low), and the FDA approved their vaccine for that class of women. That’s what is scary – that the FDA appears to have been so administratively captured by the big Pharma companies that they allowed what appears to be an extremely dangerous gene therapy product to be injected into the arms of people all the way down to six months, with minimal testing or oversight. And then the rest of the USG mandated that all of its employees and contractor employees receive the jab. So much for the voluntariness required for EUA administration of experimental drugs.
"The evidence about how dangerous the vaccines are continues to mount quickly. By now, it’s enough to make your blood curdle, if it doesn’t clot too quickly due to the Wuhan spike proteins generated by the mRNA riding around the circulatory system in the blood."
what you mean is "unsubstantiated garbage not rooted in reality," or perhaps, "complete muddying of the waters by continual shifting of goalposts to something both unsubstantiated and not really anything at all."
i remember when the vaccine came out and i had a coworker convinced that everyone who got it would be dead within 2 years..... it's been more than two years, and all you got are some vague notions of protocols where all the T's were not crossed.
but more to the point, if the vaccines are dangerous at all they are still less dangerous than catching covid. the reason is that the immune response generated from the vaccine is also generated from the virus. (plus, the getting sick part.) it is completely impossible for the vaccine to be more dangerous than the virus because the body has the same reaction to the virus as it does the vaccine.
now, i can entertain arguments about the immunity level provided from the vaccine versus "natural" immunity (catching covid) but on the issue of whether the vaccine is dangerous or not.... sorry you are just wrong. a few billion people have gotten vaccinated. we have over 2 years of data from that point. if all you got at this point is some vague notion it was done too fast, then you got nothing.
I remember 3 years ago when it wasn't common for 14 year olds to have cardiac issues. They may be unrelated, but calling anything that counteracts the narrative as “unsubstantiated garbage not rooted in reality" isn't how sensible people see it.
It still isn't common.
But hey, your echo chamber tells you it is...
"It still isn’t common..."
How many teens with cardiac issues does it take before you quit excusing malfeasance?
Fuck off and die, Dave.
"How many teens with cardiac issues does it take before you quit excusing malfeasance?"
wait, are you arguing in favor of getting vaccinated now?
https://www.today.com/health/covid-heart-attack-young-people-rcna69903
"Research shows that you're 11 times more likely to develop myocarditis from COVID itself versus the vaccine."
" They may be unrelated......"
so, it is unsubstantiated garbage not rooted in reality. just some vague notion that you can't get any definitive proof of after billions of people got the vaccine..... BILLIONS of people....
It's almost futile to argue with them.
They aren't interested in data - the goofy man on youtube told them 14yo kids are having heart attacks, so they believe the talking head....
Reality is, it's all Robert Kennedy's bullshit... Just like when the echo-chamber told everyone MMR vax caused autisim.
"It’s almost futile to argue with them
[...]
Just like when the echo-chamber told everyone MMR vax caused autisim..."
This from a lefty shit-pile who never bothers with anything like "facts"; notice what he offers as "evidence".
Fuck off and die, Dave.
Go learn what 'left' and 'right' actually refer to...
Again, your COVID conspiracy theories are garbage, just like the Autisim stuff was, and so on through the anti-vax idiocy (that used to be confined to California hippies, FWIW)...
"Go learn what ‘left’ and ‘right’ actually refer to…."
Lemme guess: If you define anything in the way which supports your 'argument', why the other party is wrong!
"Again, your COVID conspiracy theories are garbage, just like the Autisim stuff was, and so on through the anti-vax idiocy (that used to be confined to California hippies, FWIW)…"
What are my wuflu conspiracy theories?
Fuck off and die, Dave.
They aren’t interested in data – the goofy man on youtube told them 14yo kids are having heart attacks, so they believe the talking head….
This is actually backwards. You're the talking head and you're between lying and wrong consistently enough (whether that's generally uninformed, working off dated information or something else or a combination of factors is immaterial) that anyone, literally *anyone*, is better in comparison. Like you're still confused as to whether Abe Vigoda is actually alive or not.
Tell Dave to fuck off and die; it's the best we can hope of the slimy pile of lefty shit.
It's proven that natural immunity does a better job than therapeutic injection does.
Guess what? Your vaunted immune level is to the obsolete Wuhan variant spike proteins. They disappeared from the US population in 12/2021, when Omicron pushed out Delta (and not surprisingly, it was probably the mutation to the Wuhan spike proteins, because of the vaccines, that created Omicron - the virus apparently mutated around the vaccine some 15 months ago). And, no, for those under 50, with no comorbidities, the virus wasn’t killing anyone. Average comorbidities for those under 50 who died from the virus was four. That likely meant diabetic, morbidly obese, and a couple other problems. And for kids, under 20, we are talking a death toll similar to that of them drowning in a mop bucket, maybe one or two per million.
".......it was probably the mutation to the Wuhan spike proteins, because of the vaccines, that created Omicron...."
in other words, you have absolutely no idea how any of this shit works and your opinion on the matter is completely meaningless.
" That likely meant diabetic, morbidly obese, and a couple other problems."
ahh... good old victim shaming to deflect from the actual question at hand. whenever the actual facts are being discussed, and it is clear that the "the vaccine will kill you" trope is crumbling against the facts, it is important to deflect away from the fact that your position is the one that actually increased the risk to others.
None of that is actually real.
The clot stuff, the atypical cardio effects…. All made up by the same cranks who also faked a connection between vaccines and autisim.
The only thing that is true, is that both natural infection and vaccination can – in vanishingly rare cases – cause the minor, treatable issue known as myocarditis.
The Lancet says while there was an increase in myocarditis and pericarditis, it is "rare" but still promotes the therapeutic injection. It isn't a vaccine.
It very much is a vaccine – it’s a substance that once injected into the body, causes the body to produce immunity to a disease without contracting said disease.
Arguments claiming it isn’t (because it doesn't provide perfect immunity - something plenty of other vaccines don't do either) are bunk pseudoscience.
Myocarditis is a rare side-effect (note: likely immune reaction) to natural COVID infection. The fact that it is also rare side-effect of COVID vaccination is not surprising.
It’s also treatable & doesn’t kill people. But it serves as the kernel of truth for the conspiracy nuts who try to turn ‘myocarditis’ to ‘lethal cardiac effects’. Which is crap.
None of this supports any of the rubbish about clots or deaths.
"It very much is a vaccine.."
Assertion from lefty shit who spends his entire life defending an increasingly corrupt government! Yep, I'll go with that.
Fuck off and die, Dave.
Such intelligent commentary - call someone a 'lefty' without basis, because you (baselessly) disagree with what they post.
"Such intelligent commentary "
I do my best to keep things simple for simple lefty shits.
"– call someone a ‘lefty’ without basis, because you (baselessly) disagree with what they post."
Not that you've ever shown yourself to be a lefty shit, like you are here and now.
Fuck off a die, Dave.
It doesn’t produce immunity to the disease, but rather to the obsolete Wuhan spike proteins. At one point that meant some protection from the virus, because the original virus came with those spike proteins. But Omicron has different spike proteins (it very likely mutated around the vaccines). That was 15 months ago. It shouldn’t have surprised anyone - the virus is a reverse RNA respiratory virus with a simple attack vector, which means that it can mutate easily and still work. Since then, it has probably done more harm than help in fighting the virus, since the strongest immune system imprint, by far is for those Wuhan spike proteins, and esp since every booster generates an immense immune reaction to those obsolete Wuhan variant spike proteins, leaving little to attack a virus without them.
Keep pretending that there hasn’t been a huge increase in the number of heart attacks in esp young athletes, a segment that never used to see them almost at all. And explain to us why the Myocarditis and pericarditis post authorization study ordered by the FDA, of Pfizer, that was to run from 6/21-6/22, with a report due 12/22, now scheduled to be delivered to the FDA in 6/23, is so late. If it found nothing, then why the delay. But then, Pfizer is the company that found their vaccine safe for women of child bearing years, by testing it on 44 mice, 22 with the vaccine and 22 with the placebo. Then with twice the miscarriage rate with the vaccinated mice, over the unvaccinated, declared the results not statistically significant due to the small number of test subjects.
Julie Powell says hello--or she would have, if her vaccine-infested heart hadn't exploded on her, lol.
There is no evidence of increased miscarriages, increased infertility, or unusual deaths among the BILLIONS of people who have taken COVID vaccines world-wide...
And this is far beyond the purview of the FDA or the US government - if there were such evidence, the legitimate/professional media in any of these dozens of countries would be talking about it.
But NO COUNTRY is reporting any of this - it's just cranks and fools on the internet... So yeah, it's bunk.
The reason the FDA deems something not statistically significant BTW, is that it doesn't happen often enough to exceed the normal rate for the population in question - so if you have 3 miscarriages in the control group and 6 miscarriages in the vaccine group, that's 'double' the rate but also not outside the norm for a 30,000 test-subject population. Since there is no evidence that it's not due to random chance, it is discounted as not-a-legitimate-concern.
Correctly, as it turns out, based on the results in worldwide use.
"There is no evidence of increased miscarriages, increased infertility, or unusual deaths among the BILLIONS of people who have taken COVID vaccines world-wide…"
Given that Dave is a slimy pile of lefty shit, this is an easy claim to make, as it would require specific, world-wide data to refute.
Suffice to say the slimy pile of lefty shit Dave has moved the goal posts from 'you're wrong' to 'give me world-wide data'.
Dave is a slimy pile of lefty shit and is also stupid enough to hope his idiocy won't be noticed.
Fuck off and die, Dave.
No - with the test on mice, with 22 mice in each population, the miscarriage rate was double in the Pfizer test for the vaccinated mice. But they declared the results not statistically significant due to the small number of test subjects.
in other words, you are relying on "evidence" that does not meet the criteria to be legitimate..... and you know it..... and you know that there is not any other evidence in the BILLIONS of people who got vaccinated, so you have to stick with that evidence that isn't evidence.
Translation: "I'm gonna disregard evidence because I said so"
You're delusional.
It's still rubbish.
Of the multiple federal investigations into this issue, the overwhelming majority still cite natural origin.
DoE is an expert - at issues related to radiation and nuclear weapons, not biology...
This is like the US Mint expressing an opinion (contradictory to that of NASA and all the actual subject-matter experts) on the existence of extraterrestrial life....
Natural origin theory is too coincidental for where C19 originated from and how close the natural origin allegedly took place.
When all you have is coincidence, you have… Nothing.
The entire argument in favor of a lab leak has always been nothing more than 'there is a lab in that city, and it's China, ergo it must be a leak'
We understand your lack of intelligence, but you shouldn't make it so obvious:
"When all you have is coincidence, you have… Nothing..."
Methadras Aszlosis was pointing out that coincidence is all YOU have.
Fuck off and die, Dave.
Methadras Aszlosis was pointing out that coincidence is all YOU have.
Not even coincidence. A human population having the virus and a bat population having the exact same virus at the exact same time would be coincidence. They don't even have that. Less than nothing.
Not even a single positive bat carcass from the market. Less than less than nothing.
Negative contribution to the point that when they were talking about blanket bans on wet markets, they didn't distinguish between your average Western-style deli or supermarket and Eastern-style live animal or raw food wet markets. Less than less than less than nothing.
Dave is a slimy pile of lefty shit; no way is Dave to deal with facts or reality.
Fuck off and die, Dave.
Yup, just some run-of-the-mill lab.
Nope - you have a virus emerge that was uniquely adopted to attach most tightly to human ACE2 receptors. It can’t do that naturally, without being in human cells (whether ln a human or in a humanized culture). Viruses adapt to their hosts after they jump the species boundary, not before. There is no mutational residue indicating that the virus was in another species, and then mutated to target ours. On the flip side, there are fingerprints of gene editing. They show where the original spike protein generating gene sequences were cut out and new sequences spliced in.
They show where the original spike protein generating gene sequences were cut out and new sequences spliced in.
Which was without question being done in Wuhan by a researcher who published her previous attempts to edit bat viruses. But according to Foo_dd and his fellow travelers, GoF is nothing but identifying those existing viruses that are already capable of infecting human cells and the pandemic was inevitable.
Of the multiple federal investigations into this issue, the overwhelming majority still cite natural origin.
Cite?
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/3876180-white-house-no-government-consensus-on-covid-lab-leak-theory/
"The U.S. intelligence community is split on the conclusion that the deadly virus leaked from a Chinese lab. Four other federal agencies believe that it likely jumped to humans from an animal host outside a lab."
Given that the overwhelming international consensus is 'natural origin', I'm going to say the DoE is speaking out of turn, on a subject far outside it's purview.
The CDC/USAMRIID/etc doesn't opine on nuclear weapons, after all...
We understand your lack of intelligence, but you shouldn’t make it so obvious.
That is a cite to a WH claim, and doesn't support your claim one bit anyhow.
Fuck off and die, Dave.
I should have been more clear.
I wasn't actually asking for a second source making the same vague claim you are. I was asking which agencies you're talking about exactly and whether you can produce any source material from them explaining what their theories are and what evidence underlies them.
the overwhelming international consensus is ‘natural origin’
Cite? And please don't cite the WHO. Not that I would so much mind dying laughing, just not this evening.
I’m going to say the DoE is speaking out of turn, on a subject far outside it’s purview.
As strange as it may seem, this is actually exactly within their purview.
You should learn more about this subject before rushing out to preach at people on the internet.
"You should learn more about this subject before rushing out to preach at people on the internet."
This is lefty shit Dave; you expect him to LEARN? It is to laugh.
While you guys are being misdirected again, the implications here are being swept under the rug. C19 was released be it accidentally or on purpose, whether it made it to a wet market, which by the way almost none of you have been to. They are disgusting live kill centers where potential zoonotics are very likely and where many influenza strains mutate and are origin sites for influenza.
China finds out about C19, closes off anyone from Wuhan to go anywhere else from China and isolates Wuhan from anyone getting in, but what China doesn't do is stop anyone in Wuhan from leaving the country. Guess what, that's exactly what started happening. It was calculated and deliberate. Since China has little to no regard for human life, they sent out their human care packages across the world to infect their enemies in a biowarfare trial run using jet travel as the transport mechanism. It worked and worked well.
It was also used as a bio weapon against Trump since he was drubbing the Chinese in trade deals over their trade tariff inequalities. Then we have a C19 crisis in the US. Trump trots out experts and a little gremlin known as Anthony Fauci and his scarf-wearing sidekick Dr. Birx became household names for their daily updates. The problem was, was that the CDC became a defacto medical power that utterly eviscerated the country's economy and mental health over C19. It played well for China. They saw how their cohorts in the US would react.
You think sending balloons with weak presidents like Brandon wouldn't happen? Testing the waters of reaction even further? Well, here we are. Zero C19 didn't work out for them even though they were a casualty of their own making, but again, they don't care. They have 1.5 billion people. A few million less over 3 years means nothing to them. That's the kind of ruthless state body the world will have to deal with. The rest of you are arguing semantics about who did what and what levels of confidence some spying agency has about it. They are all compromised and corrupt.
But all roads to C19 point to China and China must be held to account for this and it has to hurt.
They are disgusting live kill centers where potential zoonotics are very likely and where many influenza strains mutate and are origin sites for influenza.
Also worth noting about this and the subsequent paragraph:
The nearest link between wild mammalian COVID and human COVID is 'decades' apart. Meaning *if* the "natural-origin" theory were true, people were gradually developing more lethal/contagious forms of COVID over the course of a decade or more before it was noticed and disclosed... disclosed by Dr. Li Wenliang, whom the Chinese government immediately censured and legally censored.
The funniest thing is, shutting down Asian-style/live animal wet markets, like many 'natural origin' advocates have called for, would be far more interventionist and racist than the US simply not paying the WIV to do research, *and* that wet markets, lab leak, China is to blame either way. Further, the false debate only diffuses the blame in order to ensure that neither the most reasonable, least racist solution of least reasonable, most racist solution gets implemented because 2019 was just a year where some things happened to some people.
The push to label the lab leak thesis a racist conspiracy theory now looks even more EVIL, not foolish.
the issue we ran into is that many of those obsessed with the lab leak possibility only cared because they wanted to throw hate at china.... because they are racists.... they never cared if it was correct. they will distort the fuck out of what the lab was doing, take it to ludicrous extremes about the evil china that must be destroyed.... and then in the next breath say the pandemic was no big deal and only fat people had anything to to fear.
On the contrary, we wanted to know the truth regarding the origins of COVID-19. The fact that China hasn’t been transparent in this and that your side was willing to censor those that went against their narrative is what made us suspicious. You’ll have to forgive us for calling out your China-defending nonsense.
And as Robbie said, how is it anymore racist to propose the Wuhan Lab Leak scenario than the Wuhan wet market origin? It isn’t.
look at your pathetic ass dropping in a week after the tread is dead..... and even with all that extra time still completely failing to understand what was actually said and instead fighting straw-men.
This appears to be a very weak, tentative endorsement of the idea of escape from a Chinese lab. You also have to ask, why is the Energy Department commenting on this...it's not exactly their area of expertise.
"This appears to be a very weak, tentative endorsement of the idea of escape from a Chinese lab. You also have to ask, why is the Energy Department commenting on this…it’s not exactly their area of expertise."
This ^ appears to be a lame attempt at excusing governmental malfeasance.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Interestingly though, the DOE does have significant expertise in counterterrorism. It may have begun to fight nuclear proliferation and the like, but my understanding is that it is much broader now.
Do you remember hearing a year and a half ago, about 200 PhDs at Las Alamos resigning instead of taking the required jab? That is one DOE site that I know was involved in counterrorism. I know because I know one there who is a well known counterterrorism expert, who took the jab, and almost assuredly suffered from it. He had side effects from his first jab, requested a waiver, and they got much worse with his second jab. Requested another waiver, that was denied, and last I knew, was in abeyance while it was in litigation.
Is she buying bats in the wet market in Wuhan?
Or, is she selling lab supplies there?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Yeah, but consider the source.
Not sure that the asshole in question could identify a goat; we're not dealing with even an average intelligence here.
Fuck off and die, asshole.