Is Ketanji Brown Jackson a Greater Threat to Big Tech Than Clarence Thomas?
The Supreme Court’s newest member weighs in on the meaning of Section 230 in Gonzalez v. Google.

Justice Clarence Thomas has emerged in recent years as the Supreme Court's biggest critic of Big Tech. Like many modern conservatives, Thomas seems to believe both that social media companies routinely censor conservative viewpoints and that the government should do something about it. Thomas has even spelled out his own preferred vision of how the government might more aggressively regulate social media platforms.
That was the Thomas I expected to hear from today when I tuned in to the oral arguments in Gonzalez v. Google, one of the most significant Big Tech cases on the Supreme Court's docket in recent years. To my surprise, however, Thomas seemed quite skeptical about some of the key arguments made against Google. "I don't understand how a neutral suggestion [by YouTube] about something that you've expressed an interest in is aiding and abetting," he declared at one point. "I don't understand it." Google's lawyers were undoubtedly happy to hear that.
At the same time, those lawyers were surely less than thrilled by the statements of the Court's newest member, Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, who seemed to be Google's biggest enemy on the bench. Is she now a greater judicial threat to Big Tech than Thomas?
At issue in Gonzalez v. Google is whether Google, which owns YouTube, is immunized from lawsuits alleging that YouTube's algorithms aided terrorists by recommending Islamic State videos to users. The legal dispute centers on the famous Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act of 1996, which says, "no provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
It should be an easy case. As the Reason Foundation, the nonprofit that publishes this website, noted in an amicus brief, "the plain text of Section 230 precludes claims that would treat YouTube as the publisher of videos created by third parties solely because YouTube uses an algorithm that organizes and presents the videos of its users to others who might be interested in them."
Yet that plain text did not stop Justice Jackson from raising a drastically different reading of Section 230. "Isn't it true that the statute [Section 230] had a more narrow scope of immunity than…what YouTube is arguing here today," Jackson said to Google's lawyer, Lisa Blatt, "and that it really was just about making sure that your platform and other platforms weren't disincentivized to block and screen and remove offensive content? And so to the extent the question today is, well, can we be sued for making recommendations, that's just not something the statute was directed to."
In other words, under the reading of Section 230 that Jackson was asking about, YouTube might not receive any Section 230 protections from being sued over its algorithmic recommendations to users. What's more, under that same reading, the same would likely also be the case for a bedrock internet function like Google search, which also algorithmically recommends third-party content to users. If the Section 230 interpretation that Jackson sketched out was ever endorsed by a majority of the Supreme Court, it would unleash a torrent of litigation and, in all likelihood, wreck the internet as we know it.
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"If the Section 230 interpretation that Jackson sketched out was ever endorsed by a majority of the Supreme Court, it would unleash a torrent of litigation and, in all likelihood, wreck the internet as we know it."
Why do you make that sound like a bad thing?
My thought exactly when I read that.
Yeah; Having the FBI monitor twitter was Freaken awesome! /s
Someone's hypocrisy is showing.
I think these are separate issues.
I would argue that recommended algorithms should neatly fit into territory that’s fine.
It’s the outright dismissing of certain viewpoints, and the government using its power to influence those decisions that are a major problem.
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What hypocrisy? That I extended the joke about whether it would be a bad thing to wreck the internet?
Because the alternative will be driven by risk-averse lawyers. The litigious nature of our society is frequently commented on - and never as a positive.
You say that like responsibility-averse politicians (many of whom are also lawyers), and the MSM who support them, have ever been as, let alone more, popular than risk-averse lawyers.
Also, your first statement is patently false, demonstrating your projection and the breadth of your denial/psychosis. People open businesses all the time without getting sued and in your distorted projection of reality, you don't realize that a large portion of Youtube's customers or users would rather wade through legalese to use their product than actually consume it. It's so reality denying it's beyond stupid. Like saying cars wouldn't be made or food wouldn't be prepared if it weren't for liability shields. Typical Marxist "Everything from the state, nothing without the state." bullshit.
Cars *wouldn't* be made if the manufacturer was subject to liability for terrorists and drunk drivers using them for crimes.
How could grocery stores exist if they'd be liable for recommending something via their circular that you gave to terrorists?
How could gun manufactures exist if subject to liability for people who use them for crimes?
Which is exactly how some states are trying to go after them.
Do you think we couldn't afford the insurance for such payouts? If so, how is society paying for the costs of crimes now? You can even buy first-party coverage for theft losses now, so there must be a demand for spreading these costs.
Even in that worst case scenario, they'd just have insurance. As it is, somebody pays the costs that terrorists, drunk drivers, etc. produce. It's not as it the total cost to society would be increased, just broadened by insurance coverage. And do you not trust jurors to make these judgments?
Having served on a jury (on a case about liability, where I likely single-handedly saved a defendant a substantial sum of money by ultimately persuading them the plaintiff hadn't actually presented a necessary piece evidence to sustain their claim), no, I don't trust the average jury to get a liability decision right.
Cars *wouldn’t* be made if the manufacturer was subject to liability for terrorists and drunk drivers using them for crimes.
“Cars are so useless that everyone would just entirely stop using them, demanding them, and working to meet that demand if even a scant hundred or so people died from their use.” – fafalone
Of course there is no peak “I can’t imagine another way even if another way already exists and is widely used, so there must be no other way.” stupid. Sure, car makers wouldn’t build bespoke vehicles for fully vetted clientele. They wouldn’t turn into Uber-style rideshare companies where the drivers are fully vetted. They wouldn’t, like in the firearms industry where the actual making of arms is conditionally banned, turn into kit manufacturers selling only parts for which the user bears sole responsibility of assembly and operation. Dozens upon dozens of alternative models that still requires cars and parts to get built and that already exist but, because you want to demonstrate that you’re too stupid to recognize that they exist, you pretend they won’t.
How could grocery stores exist if they’d be liable for recommending something via their circular that you gave to terrorists?
You realize you
've stolen like three bases herehit a bunt ran in a circle without touching any bases and shouted “Home run!” like retard here, right?1. Repealing protections is not a ban or a tax or a regulation or even a guarantee of litigation. Litigation costs lawyers time and they won’t sue businesses with no money for free at a loss. Keep this one in mind because, just like in baseball, all the bases you don’t tag matter.
2. Grocery stores don’t distribute flyers for profit, they distribute groceries for profit. Even at that, yes, some grocery stores in some places can’t advertise (e.g.) alcohol. But somehow, in this reality, which may bear no resemblance to your own personal reality, alcohol sales have not evaporated. Which given a ban didn’t eradicate alcohol sales, see stolen base 1 above.
3. Did your hypothetical terrorist kill somebody with a grocery flyer or did they buy some actual goods at the store to kill some people. Because you know, we do, in fact, monitor and limit the amount of ammonium nitrate and pseudo-ephedrine people can buy. Some places, in the US, limit who can buy ammo, and even who can buy knives of what length (as well as numerous other things) and we still have markets for knives, ammo, sudafed, and ammonium nitrate despite these regulations and, again, see stolen base 1 above.
To sum up, you’re retarded and I’m not at all sure how your reality works, but I do know that it doesn’t accurately resemble the reality the rest of us live in.
"Why do you make that sound like a bad thing?"
Well, when paying $15 per word to compensate endless armies of lawyers to parse EVERY FUCKING WORD that you post to the comments, to make SURE no one's Precious Baby Feelings are hurt... INCLUDING the Precious Baby Feelings of conservaturds who say that "THEY TOOK DOWN MY POST, WAAAA!!!!..." It will mean that ONLY rich mother-flicklers-licklers-persnicklers like Future MEEEE... (Who will get rich by hitting the lawsuit lottery by posting hurtful bullshits and the SUING THE "PUBLISHERS" OF THE POSTS that I have written)... The intertubes will be swamped by greedy self-righteous butt RICH selfish assholes like MEEEEE!!! Prepare yourselves for what YOU wished for!
Paging spastic squirrbil.
I am here, I am queer (in the eyes of self-righteous hypocritical assholes, at least), and so DEAL with shit!
For starters...
OPEN QUESTIONS FOR ALL ENEMIES OF SECTION 230
The day after tomorrow, you get a jury summons. You will be asked to rule in the following case: A poster posted the following to social media: “Government Almighty LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know!”
This attracted protests from liberals, who thought that they may have detected hints of sarcasm, which was hurtful, and invalidated the personhoods of a few Sensitive Souls. It ALSO attracted protests from conservatives, who were miffed that this was a PARTIAL truth only (thereby being at least partially a lie), with the REAL, full TRUTH AND ONLY THE TRUTH being, “Government Almighty of Der TrumpfenFuhrer ONLY, LOVES US ALL, FAR more than we can EVER know! Thou shalt have NO Government Almighty without Der TrumpfenFuhrer, for Our TrumpfenFuhrer is a jealous Government Almighty!”
Ministry of Truth, and Ministry of Hurt Baby Feelings, officials were consulted. Now there are charges!
QUESTIONS FOR YOU THE JUROR:
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, true or false?
“Government Almighty LOVES US ALL”, hurtful sarcasm or not?
Will you be utterly delighted to serve on this jury? Keep in mind that OJ Simpson got an 11-month criminal trial! And a 4-month civil trial!
Interesting hypothetical, squirrel.
Neither interpretation is wrong, and neither interpretation is right. It is up to the reader to interpret for himself.
If Youtube decides to suppress or support either side, then Youtube has taken a publisher's position. For example, if Youtube decides that the video is "hurtful" and bans the video, and suspends the account of the video, and won't allow likes or retweets, and calls the "US bureau of correct political speech" to add the account to the long list of "those in line for reeducation", then Youtube has become a publisher and not shielded by 230.
If Youtube takes a position either way on its content it is no longer a simple provider of a communications medium and has inserted itself as a publisher.
"If Youtube decides to suppress or support either side, then Youtube has taken a publisher’s position."
If YouTube takes down child porn or murder-for-hire videos, then CLEARLY they are picking a side! After they have done THAT, then sure, they should be able to get sued for what OTHER people have posted!
Next on the Hit Parade:
Yahoo News reported that Putin said, “Ukrainians need to DIE-DIE-DIE!”, and posted video of Putin saying that.
9 Wise Magically Wise Elders will now spend $45,947,233.56 taxpayer dollars, and 3 months, pondering WHO should be blamed: Yahoo News, or Putin?
Child porn and murder for hire are illegal. Granted, neither is as egregious as saying that maybe an MRNA vaccine could be harmful, at least in today's "get your mind right" atmosphere.
Nonsense.
The recommendation algorithm is *not* a publisher analog, it's a *bookseller* analog. A bookseller promotes books (or not) through store placement, advertising, and sale pricing. None of these things create liability. A recommendation algorithm is virtually identical to store placement, in terms of making some content more visible than others to a browser.
If the algorithm sends you something, i.e. it is a pro-active move, it is clearly publishing. If it is merely moving things around within a space in which all things can readily be seen, then it is merely housekeeping.
Not really difficult.
Like many modern conservatives, Thomas seems to believe both that social media companies routinely censor conservative viewpoints and that the government should do something about it.
For the first point, that's provably true. For the second part, Section 230 actually IS the government doing something about content moderation, he's simply expressed skepticism over whether it's the right thing. And he's pointed to alternative ways we could treat social media without coming down definitively on those.
Well said.
For the first point, that’s provably true.
*sigh* this just will never die.
Find me someone who was censored on social media for the *sole reason* that the person advocated for, say, low taxes, or restricting abortion.
Thanks, ChemJeff, I’ve been asking the same question since God was a Sacred fartilized egg smell, and I have NEVER gotten a sensible answer!
Specifically, punished BY GOVERNMENT ALMIGHTY with fines or jail sentences! Not just "WAAAA, private actors TOOK DOWN MY POST!!!" (But yeah, even when the posts are taken down, they are NOT often for plain and simple, civilly-expressed political opinions.)
https://twitter.com/bariweiss/status/1601007575633305600
Twitter shadowbanning people. It's literally and provably happening. Or like when LibsofTikTok got banned for simply posting things people had freely shared.
If you want my exhaustive list, it could take a while.
I am punishing Twitter for their sins by boycotting them. I'm punishing FacePoooo and many others ass well. After that, my "punishment boner" is well satisfied. I have NO more need to punish ANYONE over all of this, other than using the free market (boycotting the offenders). Government Almighty is WAAAAY the fuck TOOO large already, so that I utterly and adamantly REFUSE (in a principled manner) to go running and crying to Government Almighty to fix ANY of this!
And you, pray tell? What is your fix?
“Happening” or “did happen”. There’s a new owner.
****Be Careful****
*Moving Goalposts**
"The bodies are buried, the murders happened last year and can't be undone. Let's just move on. Our new motives are beyond reproach..."
Says the old owner.
See, this is part of the problem with the Twitter Files and how it has been handled.
We go to Tweet #5: "Twitter set the account of conservative activist Charlie Kirk (@charliekirk11) to “Do Not Amplify.”"
And yes, Charlie Kirk is a conservative. But we are not told WHY his account was placed on "Do Not Amplify". Was it because he is a conservative? Was it because he espoused mundane, traditional, routine conservative viewpoints (i.e., "let's lower taxes")? Or, was it due to some specific ACTION that he took, which was not necessarily part of any specific conservative viewpoint, that led to the change in status? Bari Weiss doesn't tell us, and we are instead only left to infer that it was because of his political beliefs. That is one way the Twitter Files are dishonest. They present a lot of information, *but not enough* for a full understanding of what happened. Both Taibbi and Weiss did this, they would leave selective 'gaps' in their reporting in which they expected readers to 'fill in the blanks'. And you have to be looking carefully to find them. But they did it, as they did above, leading people to the conclusion that Charlie Kirk was 'shadow-banned' because he was a conservative, when the empirical facts as we know them do not prove that claim.
So yes, we all know that Twitter 'shadow-banned' people (according to a disputed definition of that term). But that isn't also what I asked. Show me a person who was banned, or 'shadow-banned', for the *sole reason* of espousing a traditional, mundane conservative *viewpoint*, such as "let's lower taxes" or "let's restrict abortion".
Go ChemJeff go!
Just ONE of the MANY real problems here is that the Twitter files were SELECTIVELY AND PARTIALLY released by politically and otherwise biased Elonites!!! Who knows HOW much bullshit was pulled at Twitter-twatter-tweakers AT THE BEHEST OF JOSH HAWLEY ETC.!!! But THOSE kinds of things are NOT revealed to us!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twitter_Files from there…
The installment releases have been criticized for alleged shortcomings, including exaggerating the contents’ significance, omissions of context, outright mendacity, partial reporting, conclusions reached in the reporting with counterclaims against, and described as “an egregious example of the very phenomenon it purports to condemn—that of social-media managers leveraging their platforms for partisan ends”.
SQRLSY comments: Note partial reporting… The INTERNAL EMAILS WERE NOT ALL RELEASED!!!! They were SELECTIVELY RELEASED!!! Ye mendacious liars!!!!
Hence also from there “calls for the full release of all documents for the sake of transparency…” Hello, liars!!!!
Can you say: "grasping?"
Grasping for common sense, benevolence, justice, and individual freedoms? Yes, SOME of us CAN grasp these concepts! (Ask me HOW it is done!)
Nice newspeak comrade.
Use Twitter's own standards to figure it out. Whatever this hypothetical action is, we know that:
1. It was not significant enough for Twitter to outright ban Kirk.
2. It did not result in any controversy as nobody knows what it might have been.
3. It did not result in similar shadowbans on other platforms.
You are not arguing in good faith. You are asking for a level of proof that cannot be obtained. Even if you had all these execs at gunpoint and asked them why they really did these things, do you think a biased and bigoted person will have a coming to God moment and realize their ignorance? Have you never watched and read the Nuremberg trials? This is pathetic and amateur hour bullshit.
Since we cannot read the minds of those who lynched that man, we cannot assume it was a crime.
"Dishonest"??
You would be the expert on fat, er, that.
Good lord, you argue against this provably true assertion also?!
So please tell us all, WHO has been (in the last few decades, in the USA) actually PUNISHED (by jail or fines, not just "WAAAA, they took my post down") by Government Almighty, for WRONG political posts or opinions or WRONG moderation? Is this SUCH a hard question to answer? Geezum, maybe the answer is that NO ONE has been punished this way!
"WHO has been (in the last few decades, in the USA) actually PUNISHED"
You, for one. You have swallowed the propaganda hook, line and sinker. Or, maybe, you are a propaganda department functionary and don't believe anything you say so stridently?
Again, show me a person who was banned, or ‘shadow-banned’, for the *sole reason* of espousing a traditional, mundane conservative *viewpoint*, such as “let’s lower taxes” or “let’s restrict abortion”.
I refer you to the Twitter files, the Facebook files, everything that Shellenberger, Taibbi, Weiss, and Greenwald have written on this matter, including your own statement above about Charlie Kirk.
I know you are trying this purposeful obtuse tactic whereby you demand on the record testimony from someone explicitly explaining they banned X person for Y reason, and then some level of corroboration by ten other people, but it's clear what you are doing.
You are simply ignoring the obvious and demanding an absurd level of proof that works to help you avoid addressing the obvious.
The Market Has Spoken! Go to Parler!
Parler layoffs, https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/01/parler-reportedly-axed-most-of-its-staff-after-ending-deal-to-sell-to-kanye-west/#:~:text=Parler's%20owner%20laid%20off%20most,according%20to%20The%20Verge's%20sources.
Parler owner laid off 75% of staff and has only 20 employees left, report says
Parler reportedly laid off staff and execs after ending deal to sell to Kanye West.
Failure of Trump Truth Social https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/09/10/truth-social-flop-says-about-trump-00055977
What the Truth Social Flop Says About Trump
He’s a bad businessman who has worn out his meme.
Whine and cry over THERE!!!
Who are you to decide what is an acceptably mundane conservative viewpoint and what is too extreme to be shared?
You also know for a fact that the New York Post was banned for literally nothing more than, "We found some of Hunter Biden's e-mails on an abandoned laptop, and here's what they say." They were actually banned for sharing that story and other were also banned for linking to it.
They were temporarily banned BY A PRIVATE COMPANY, not by Government Almighty! Please write clearly!
(Many-many private news rags BAN me by NOT publishing my letters to the editor!!! Butt you do NOT see me being a whining cry-baby about it, tit, or shit! Grow up, entitled crybabies!)
"They were temporarily banned..."
Hahahaha... just until after the election.
There is an obscure novelist by the name of J K Rowling who has been seriously harrassed and banned for insinuating there are two sexes. Miss that one?
There are so many cases, you are being obtuse.
I have to admit, I think Jackson is highlighting the big question that most people have about Section 230.
From a general sense, it seemed to be created to allow websites to be free from liability for the postings of third-parties, but allowing those sites to remove the vile and obscene.
Yet, YouTube does a massive amount of curating, promoting, demonetizing, censoring, and manipulation of third-party provided content. At what point is YouTube a participant in the purveyance of the content rather than simply a platform allowing such content to be posted?
The concern, though, is that if youtube can't make recommendations based on user's activity and interests, then the only things youtube promotes are going to be the MSM videos. The heavily curated and edited and "safe" content. They already show a huge preference to those, but if you remove their ability to say, "We see you're watching a lot of cooking videos, here's some other cooking channels you may like to check out," then it's all going to be NBC, CBS, and ABC stuff. They'll stick to the other people who are appropriately muzzled to avoid ever having any liability.
Oh, I get the potential outcome and don't necessarily think it would be a good thing. But that's not really my issue. If someone is protected from liability because they really aren't the ones creating the content, how much say in that content's allowance, reach, and substance changes it from being a third party posting to a YouTube curated endeavor?
At this point you're arguing how liable a gas station is for selling a terrorist gasoline to drive to a terrorist attack, that any activity however tenuously connected to BAD THING is liable for that bad thing on some level. The act of sending people videos related to the ones they've been watching doesn't constitute aiding and abetting terrorism. And don't hide behind some mealy mouthed "Well, I'm just asking questions!" It's stupid bullshit and you know it is.
Wow, did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed? What sparked such irrational and stupid anger on your part.
And your analogy is so bad, I first thought it was sarcasm.
I'm simply engaging in discussion and asking questions, not sure why you have such an aversion to that, but it does explain a fair amount about you, I guess.
Anyway, the topic is whether legal liability for any number of claims such as slander/libel to direct incitement of violence can be applied to highly curated websites due to Section 230 not extending to such extreme content moderation. I don't really know the answer and therefore, I'm not arguing for anything like you claim. I'm simply interested, just like the SCOTUS fyi, about the limits and extent of the protections of Section 230.
Sorry that such curiosity and interest apparently upsets your fragile constitution.
The skein, or at least the general idea, of statutory exemptions from the common law of torts doesn't sit too well with this libertarian. Nuclear power, vaccines, guns, cigarets, the Internet...sure, I get the idea that liability seems to have gone, or threatens to go, awry in many areas, but the practice of statutorily exempting, or proposing to exempt, fully or partially, those particular things as the problems arise just seems unlibertarian to me.
The US State Department was helping fund the disinformation index that was being used to censor. But for some reason people want to try to convince me government is not involved.
Now that they are caught, they make it old news.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/state-department-backed-group-to-stop-funding-disinformation-index-that-targeted-right-leaning-sites/ar-AA17LOZE?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=a8fabc730d9d4b29d08d1eabd8859393
"At what point is YouTube a participant in the purveyance of the content rather than simply a platform allowing such content to be posted?"
Are YOU ready for the endless lawyers and "liberal experts" and Government Almighty (Instead of the FUCKING FREE MARKET fer Chrissakes!!!) to answer this question for you?! Do you REALLY think that you can "make the liberals cry" by pussy-grabbing them ALL with new replacements to S-230, while they will NEVER pussy-grab you right back? Keep in mind that BIDEN WON THE ELECTIONS (despite the perverted electoral college, and despite the fevered dream of those who hallucinate about stolen erections)!!!
WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE that we can all get ahead, by pussy-grabbing the enemies, who will NEVER pussy-grab us back? Has this been tried before, and what were the results?
This is plain ignorance about algorithms. Do you even know what a formula is? Google (and every platform using algorithms) already has content moderation. Moderation isn't only about what your users upload, but what your algorithm does too, but the government cannot demand perfection.
You also have to be a special kind of dented to seriously believe that Google supports ISIS.
True.
I have to admit, I read over your comment and moved on because I couldn’t remotely tell that you were responding to me.
Where did I say that Google supports ISIS? Can you point that out, because I couldn’t find it. You do realize this case has legal implications that go well beyond the subject matter currently before the court, right? I mean, you know what precedent is, right?
And how am I showing ignorance about algorithms? I’m simply asking the same question as Justice Jackson. How far can content moderation go, even using algorithms, which of course are not always the basis for content curation (of course I see you ignored that elephant in the room), and still be provided the protections of Section 230? I'm honestly just curious about the matter, you know, like the SCOTUS is.
I have to admit, this subject has been really interesting to watch people debate. It’s a real grey zone subject, yet most people are like you, completely ardent about their positon to the point of righteous absurdity even in the face of the SCOTUS actually wondering about the same issues. So entertaining, actually.
At what point in time does Barnes and Noble become liable as a publisher for arranging and rearranging the placement of books in its store?
I’d say when they go beyond simply offering books for sale and start paying people for their books, promoting books, editing books, denying books, and curating what the books say.
But what's funny about your comparison is that Barnes and Noble doesn't have a special law protecting it.
The answer is transparency. All these social media sites should be required by law to post the selection criteria behind their algorithms and the rationale behind them.
I think that makes a fair amount of sense.
Also, is it really surprising that one of the big conservatives on the court is anti-censorship and the big progressive on the court is coming down on the pro-censorship side? I really am not shocked at all.
Well, look at the history of Josh Hawley...
So your “fix” for this is to vote for Trump again? Or for Josh Hawley? https://reason.com/2019/03/01/josh-hawley-section-230-big-tech-cpac/ Sen. Josh Hawley Rails Against ‘Big Tech,’ Anti-Conservative Bias, and Section 230
https://reason.com/2019/06/25/the-moral-scolds-new-illiberal-right-internet-hawley-230/ The Moral Scolds of the New Illiberal Right Are Coming For Your Internet
From Sohrab Ahmari to Josh Hawley, what the new right really wants is to squelch free expression.
TRUST in us, just TRUST in us, they say!!!
https://www.npr.org/2020/05/28/863932758/stung-by-twitter-trump-signs-executive-order-to-weaken-social-media-companies
Stung By Twitter, Trump Signs Executive Order To Weaken Social Media Companies
Trust in Trump, who will FIX all this “Government Almighty pressures on social media” for us!
" It is the policy of the United States that the scope of that immunity should be clarified: the immunity should not extend beyond its text and purpose to provide protection for those who purport to provide users a forum for free and open speech, but in reality use their power over a vital means of communication to engage in deceptive or pretextual actions stifling free and open debate by censoring certain viewpoints. "
To start with; NPR manufactures their own leftard narratives.
Second; The REAL purpose of the E.O. appears to be honoring Terms of Service...
Is that something you think should be protected? Violating terms of service for political ends?
When the end of the story really came out.. It was the FBI and DHS requiring the terms of service to be broken. Trumps only curse in the matter was being naive about it's roots.
Trump's only curse in the matter was being a bully-boy THUG and pushing people around with political threats, when NO ONE with an internet connection can NOT access ALL of His Lies that they want to access!
When, in the USA, we have access to 1.14 billion web sites… Number of web sites today… https://siteefy.com/how-many-websites-are-there/ … I don’t care much about supposed censorshit! We also have phone calls, pamphlets, letters, word of mouth, smoke signals, telegraphs, Morse code, cryptic codes on the back-sides of stop signals, messages on cereal boxes, nano-molecules in your vaccines, tin-foil hats, ESP, clairvoyance, text messages, and… Now I will show my advanced years… EMAILS!!!!
I wish that the whining crybabies would JUST SHUT UP about HOW horribly bad censorshit is today!!! In the USA at least… We have MORE access to MORE lies, every day! We can freely access more lies than you can shake your dick at!
So you were cheering on the Republicans during the 'weaponization' of the federal government hearings I take it?? I mean you wouldn't want to be called a hypocrite by siding with all the Democrats who were insisting free-speech doesn't exist because FIRE in a movie theater and Jan 6th...
We all know that answer; You're a partisan hack.
A fan of the [WE] gang-affiliation mob RULES! ideology (i.e. Democracy).
Simple questions for ye:
Some Islamofascists killed some people. Who should be blamed, the Islamofascists, or some people who conveyed some info about and-or from the Islamofascists?
Putin and flunkies killed some people. Who should be blamed, Putin, or some people who conveyed some info about and-or from Putin?
WHY does it take $34,745,364 and 9 Wise Magically Wise Elders to finger these things out for us?
WHERE HAS SANITY GONE?!?!?!?
It doesn't take, "9 Wise Magically Wise Elders" it takes a US Constitution (the peoples Supreme Law over their government) to protect them from a fascist government... Ya know that thing you just got busted for pretending you cared about it. Now if you want to blame justices for IGNORING that Supreme Law of the people when ensuring justice you'll find no better party-associated justices than that of the Democrats for compulsively and endlessly pretending it doesn't exist. Right down to having complete contempt of it; calling it racist, old, irrelevant (the list is endless).
It’s a bit early to conclude that based only on the questions they asked the attorneys.
Nope.. Not for me. I'm actually relieved to see it.
These last few years have shown a bipartisan attempt to eliminate the 1A. The 'government' has ZERO authority to be legislating the press.
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Please do not explain to us what a "companion mother" is.
Coming to a reality show on the History Channel any day now...
Well, I was gonna ask what a "companion mother" was, but you're probably right. I don't want to know.
Reagan’s deal was better.
Like many modern conservatives, Thomas seems to believe both that social media companies routinely censor conservative viewpoints and that the government should do something about it.
Wow, uh, got a cite on this one? Is it ENB where she reinterprets a study where Conservatives are more likely to support speech even when it slanders them and support Federalism even when it works against their priorities as a demonstration of just how dishonest Conservatives actually are? I know you aren't going to reference the Twitter files or the Facebook statements or Google's statements because you're just not that ethical of a guy. Funny how all you Reason writers keep coming to the same set of facts without or even in spite of the, or any, evidence.
Thomas has even spelled out his own preferred vision of how the government might more aggressively regulate social media platforms.
How much of an utterly unscrupulous, dishonest, waste of shit-filled bag of skin do you have to be to say someone spelled out their own preferred vision and then link to yourself arranging the letters of what they spelled out for them?
I suppose you did me a favor by demonstrating how utterly dishonest you are up front. Nevermind, my request for a cite, you've adequately demonstrated that you'd selectively omit any facts and substitute your own interpretation like the most dishonest of political hacks.
Funny how all you Reason writers keep coming to the same set of
factsconclusions without or even in spite of the, or any, evidence.Yep. Because recommending isn't publishing when Google does it, any more than it was publishing when a bookstore, newsstand, record store, library, or Blockbuster did it.
Nope. Because we know what holding distributors liable as distributors looks like, because we've done that since forever.
Good comment.
But we haven’t done liability for distributors at anywhere near the scale a site like YouTube handles.
So, you believe a carve-out exception is in order based on the scale of a particular business?
S-230 makes NO such provisions!
Just an FYI: I mute you. I unmuted to let you know as a courtesy, but from here on in, I will always have you muted. Obviously you're still free to respond to my comments as you wish, but I just felt it proper to give you fair warning so you don't waste your time responding to me if you are looking for me to respond back.
Cheers.
Your utter bullshit (evil or stupid or both) will be refuted as I see fit, for other readers, who MIGHT otherwise confuse libertarian thinking with power-grabbing authoritarianism. With or without Your Precious Permission. Cheers!
TBH, Section 230 doesn’t talk about recommendation algorithms. Wish its authors had thought of it, but they didn’t.
I’m hoping that, based on other legal precedence than 230, their ruling establishes a standard that an individual is responsible for their own decisions. Specifically, if you join up with a terrorist organization that’s nobody else’s fault but your own. Please tell me there’s some precedent in the law that a person is responsible for their own decisions and actions.
an individual is responsible for their own decisions
That is so radical as to be heresy these days.
Society made me do it is making a comeback.
The flaw in Sec230 is that there is no explicit recognition of who owns user-generated content. And a massive loophole for Facebook/Google who can own that content and not be held accountable for anything they do with it and not pay the users who create it either.
It needs to be fixed. But I sure as fuck don't trust federal judges or pols to fix it since their instinct is simply to nationalize it all.
That's a good point.
"Big Tech" brought this scrutiny on themselves by selectively suppressing dissenting and conservative voices and cooperating with government censors, especially during the COVID hysteria. If they had limited their curating to removing illegal and slanderous material, no one would be paying attention to the details of how they used their Section 230 privilege.
“Big Tech” brought this scrutiny on themselves by selectively suppressing dissenting and conservative voices and cooperating with government censors, especially during the COVID hysteria.
I keep hearing this. It seems an awful lot like an orthogonal defense of S230 in the "Did you see the way Facebook was dressed? She was practically begging for it!" fashion.
Sometimes she IS begging for it.
She begs MEEEE for it ALL of the time!!!!
By my math, Facebook, Twitter, and Google were well under the age of 17 when the abuse started.
It's a matter of boundary pushing. Had they stayed near the original terms and understanding nobody would think it an issue, but having gone far afield of the terms it's now a problem.
Same for QI, some immunity is required or every arrest is an assault but the current version of "is there case law that cops can't steal $10,003 exactly? No, ok QI granted." is unsupportable.
That is a good analogy. The Reason Foundation seems to be for such an expansive interpretation of 230 that it eats the legislative intent of the tgat section of the law, because Reason has an aversion to legal liability surrounding speech and press issues.
I guess I should be more clear:
"Big Tech" brought this scrutiny on themselves *in part*...
The Corporations that invoked Wyden and Cox's scrutiny don't exactly exist anymore and one of them did literally *nothing* to invoke their scrutiny. Long after the current corporations are gone, Progressives and Congresscritters will still be scrutinizing businesses and individual's 1A behavior for any opportunity to abrogate it and/or otherwise control them. Given the breadth of abuse, the lack of response, the degree to which even libertarians will say "Congress protecting censorship is the 1A!", I suspect a cultural rot far greater than even S230. The "It's the 1A." sales pitch isn't good or helping, but the real problem is that even libertarian journalists don't give a shit about the 1A.
I don't deny and even notably claimed that Facebook begged Congress to pull its hair and smack it's ass while Reason sat back and said "HAWT!" My point is, Facebook employees didn't take an oath of office that prevented them from abrogating anyone's 1A rights. Facebook was begging for it, but Congress takes an effective vow of celibacy and *still* turned out to be a compulsive, abusive, controlling, narcissist who enjoyed roughing up women because his buddies would hoot and holler when he did.
Hello, all ye warped-mind FOOLS who can not or WILL not understand simple ideas about justice? WHO is the guilty party, he who pulled the trigger, or he who REPORTED about the words and ideas of the trigger-pullers? JESUS H. TITTY-FUCKING CHRIST, this should be a VERY simple question!!!!
Fresh print runs of “Mien Kampf”… https://time.com/3721668/hitler-mein-kampf-reprinted-germany/ Hitler's Mein Kampf Will Be Reprinted in Germany for the First Time Since World War II “The new edition, which is being produced and published by the taxpayer-funded Institute of Contemporary History…”
So then… Holocaust victims and their kin should be able to PUNISH the “Institute of Contemporary History” for the sins of Adolf, right, speech-control asshole(s)?!??!
Publishers of the screed of the Unabomber… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unabomber_Manifesto#:~:text=The%20Washington%20Post%20published%20the,with%20The%20New%20York%20Times.
From there… “It was originally printed in a supplement to The Washington Post after Kaczynski offered to end his bombing campaign for national exposure. Attorney General Janet Reno authorized the printing to help the FBI identify the author. The printings and publicity around them eclipsed the bombings in notoriety, and led to Kaczynski's identification by his brother, David Kaczynski.”
HELLO YOU GOVERNMENT-ALMIGHTY WORSHITTING FOOLS!!!! How do YOU feel about people being allowed to publish shit ONLY after Government Almighty gives them PERMISSION to do so, so as to bypass STUPID ASSHOLES who fucking idiotically and EVILLY confuse those who KILLED v/s those who PUBLISHED WORDS?!? Government Almighty PERMISSION needed to publish shit, if ye have deep pockets, so ass to NOT be sued!
Government Almighty DAMN it all, ye assholes (AND most of the media, and Government Almighty itself, to include the SCROTUS) and stupid AND evil mouth-breathing MORONS, utterly beyond comprehension of sensible and benevolent folk! WHAT is your excuse for your stupidity and evil?
If you tube can censor conservatives, why can't they censor terrorists?
That's the thing about 230. Companies moderate selectively, basically only right of center viewpoints. If they want 230's protection, they shouldn't moderate at all.
So they should NOT be allowed to take down child porn, or solicitations for murder-for-hire, right? Ass soon ass they do those kinds of things, they should be able to be SUED for what OTHER people wrote!!!
Hello, are you plotting and scheming to post murder-for-hire ads, and then SUE Reason.com for "publishing" your shit? Ka-ching Ka-ching Ka-ching ALL of the way to the bank, baby!!! Wooo-Hooo!!!
Why? YouTube is Google’s privately-owned website. They don’t owe it to anyone to post their speech.
But to gain the protections of Section 230, they do. They are free to be like a newspaper and curate who and what gets placed on their site. But that immediately takes away liability protections.
I think the problem is you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't curate the heck out of your site and then claim liability protection that is meant for people who don't curate their site.
"You can’t curate the heck out of your site and then claim liability protection that is meant for people who don’t curate their site."
Say power-grabbing assholes!
"Publisher. Platform. Pick one." ... 'Cause Power Pig said so!
Your large and ugly punishment boner is showing!!! Be decent, and COVER UP, will ya?!?!?
If you want to love animals, pamper your pets. If you love to eat meat, eat meat. Pick one, ONLY one!
You either love animals, or you eat meat… You can NOT do both! All pet owners who eat meat? Their pets will be slaughtered and their pet-meat distributed to the poor! Because I and 51% of the voters said so! And because we are power pigs, and LOOOOOVE to punish people!
"Publisher. Platform. Pick one. When you exercise editorial control, you are a publisher."
I’ve heard this utter balderdash from an endless army of marching morons! Using the VERY simple principle of “speech is speech is also writing or any other method of idea conveyance”, then WHAT is “editorial control”? It is simply, picking and choosing what to repeat or report, and what to ignore!
Examples:
Der TrumpfenFuhrer goes on and on and ON AND ON for 2 hours, telling us all just HOW wonderful he is. In the middle of all this boredom, He says, “And voters should only be allow to vote “R”, and NOT for “D” or “L”, ‘cause ALL “D” and “L” votes are fraudulent!” … Now if the media reports ONLY the juicy excerpt from Der TrumpfenFuhrer’s endless blathering, they are clearly “editing”… So we can SUE them (the media) for quoting Der TrumpfenFuhrer said, right, right-wing wrong-nuts? Media LIED to us by omitting context!!!
Der BidenFuhrer goes on and on and ON AND ON for 5 hours, telling us all just HOW wonderful Hunter Biden’s artwork is. In the middle of all this boredom, He says, “And income taxes need to be set to 98% for EVERYONE!” … Now if the media reports ONLY the juicy excerpt from Der BidenFuhrer’s endless blathering, they are clearly “editing”… So we can SUE them (the media) for quoting (“out of context, edited”) what Der BidenFuhrer said, right, left-wing wrong-nuts?
Partisan POWER PIG bullshit all the way down!
But to gain the protections of Section 230, they do.
S230 doesn't require that anywhere.
Yes, for section 230 to apply to them, they cannot curate content. How do you not know this?
Yes, for personal freedom to apply to YOU, you either love animals, and keep a pet or pets, or you HATE animals, and eat meat… You can NOT do both!
How do you not know this?
Good faith is apparently missing from his understanding.
It does say that any moderation has to be done "in good faith". Which suggests some consistancy and transparency with regard to how moderation decisions are made.
Acting “in good faith” is an ethical-moral-spiritual issue, not a legal issue. It is WAAAAY too loosey-goosey to lead to anything other than endless fights (and wasted time and money) among endless armies of lawyers, judges, and law-makers. It is like laws requiring “reasonable efforts” to accommodate the handicapped. The results there were cases of lawyers endlessly suing over safety rails 38.5 inches high and not 39 inches high., etc., burdening property owners over absurdly silly things, in order to enrich lawyers… After the regulators got ahold of this WAAAAAY too vaguely formulated law, and tried to enforce it.
Acting “in good faith” isn’t specific enough… If loosey-goosey laws were effective, we would need just ONE such law… “Everyone will be require to make a good-faith, reasonable effort to love one another”. There, we’ve just fell-swoop eliminated half of human suffering, excluding natural death and diseases, floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc.!
If an "in good faith" clause is not a legal consideration, then what in the world is it doing in the operative text of a law?
Just to make it look pretty, for grandstanding politicians. That's all!
(Kinda like swearing-in ceremonies. Oath of office, etc. Just for show, meaning nothing, generally.)
No, that’s the meaning you want to attach to it. In fact, it’s incredibly vague.
It is a catch-all type of phrase, but it does have legal meaning in context.
It is strange that "vague" language in law always seem to work against the maximal interpretation of liberties for the most people. Vagueness in one type of law means that the government is unconstrained its scope of action. Vagueness in this law means a platform can censor the speech of users based on the whims of its staff and not tell the users that have been censors exactly why they have been censored.
Newspapers typically give you no reason(s) for not publishing your letter to the editor. Should I be allowed to SUE them for that? Do YOU want to serve on a jury for Mickey-mouse bullshit of this sort?
I believe if a published letter to the editor defamed or libeled someone, the newspaper could get sued.
The difference between a letter to the editor and posted content on a platform is that you have no expectation the paper will definitely print your letter. With a platform, you have a type of contract that your content will be published with some constraints. Those constraints should be transparent and equally applied.
“With a platform, you have a type of contract that your content will be published with some constraints.”
Simply not true. Go look at the ToU for any of the major social media sites.
It is strange that “vague” language in law always seem to work against the maximal interpretation of liberties for the most people.
Because that's how all three branches of government want it. Write a "vague" statute to balance the rights of individuals with the good of society. The "vague" language that Congress passed then has to be operationalized by unelected bureaucrats in the Executive branch. The Courts then defer to the "vague" written text of the law to allow the government to do basically whatever it wants so long as they followed the proper administrative process.
Congress campaigns on the statute as meaning whatever they feel like it means. The Executive branch consolidates more authority in the bureaucracy. The Court is just "calling balls and strikes". All three branches win and the only thing it cost them was eroding your freedom which was the the whole point from the start.
TL;DR - FYTW
"If you tube can censor conservatives, why can’t they censor terrorists?"
They can, ASS AUTHORIZED BY S-230!
However, S-230, does NOT require PERFECT moderation!!!
I hope that Government Almighty will require YOU and all other Perfect Assholes, to perfectly moderate Your Own Perfect Posts, and leave the rest of us (who have at least a pico-gram of humility) alone!
It just shows where their priorities lie. Not getting rid of illegal or violent or obscene content, just get rid of th I se people with icky opinions.
Moral-ethical problem, not a legal problem (nor should we try to make it a legal problem).
I am anti-divorce, anti-bad-breath, anti-body-odor, anti-bad-diets, anti-sickness, anti-lies, anti-suffering, anti-messy-housekeeping, and MANY more. And I will say these things publicly, and even advocate that others should get on my bandwagon! Does that mean that I advocate the use of Government Almighty to prohibit ANY of these things, or punish ANY of those who indulge in said activities? Absolutely not!
(My opinion and stance, to be sure. Others will differ, obviously.)
PS, I also oppose bad haircuts and ugly tattoos.
One of the proper functions of government is to enforce contracts.
Well at least Reason's graphic design department (which I suspect consists of Nick Gillespie with an early 2000s pirated copy of Photoshop) got the numbers right.
It is known.
If the Section 230 interpretation that Jackson sketched out was ever endorsed by a majority of the Supreme Court, it would unleash a torrent of litigation and, in all likelihood, wreck the internet as we know it.
Here's how Reason used to write about Section 230, in 1997.
1997 print edition.
Reason is controlled opposition that exists largely to make the libertarian argument for whatever progressives want at any given time.
You link to an article about the entire CDA, and treat that like it equates to an article about only Section 230. Nice try.
Amazing how, in an article about the CDA, it never mentions the first amendment of the internet.
Imagine… for a moment, sitting across the table from Sullum while talking about the article he had just penned.
Then you say to him,
You know *pauses to light cigarette* you complain about this law, but without it, the internet as we know it and will come to know it wouldn’t exist. It would be an unfree wasteland of tyranny.
The point, which you are so adept at missing, is WE WOULDN'T NEED A SECTION 230 IF WE DIDN'T HAVE A COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT. And Reason sure as shit knew that in 1997.
Again somehow, libertarian-wise, the ground was poisoned, the tree that sprang from the ground was poisoned and SCOTUS was right to chop it down save the one essential seed which bears all of the fruits of the internet to us but from which all sprouts are poisonous.
Section 230's immaculate conception makes the actual Immaculate Conception seem straightforward and reasonable. At least when the Westboro Baptist protesters went to quote scripture, they didn't choose to flip to the section titled, "God's Protection Of 'Good Samaritan' Assisting Of Degenerates And Homosexuals."
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Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
The FBI and DHS broke that Amendment – Now politicians can’t stop pointing fingers at everything BUT the FBI and DHS and the result of that is bipartisan support for an FBI and DHS ministry of truth.
Biden needs to FIRE any name brought to the table of the 'weaponizing' of the federal government hearings... But since he's the Nazi-Leader we know that's not going to happen. The judiciary or the house needs to do that and Biden should be propped up as the Criminal Nazi supporter he has always been.
Of course Ketanji Brown Jackson supports MORE governed media; because just like every liberal justice; they don't know how to read the US Constitution.
The Reason staff all told us to hold our noses and vote for Biden.
Bye bye, Tulpa!
Next on the Hit Parade:
Yahoo News reported that Putin said, "Ukrainians need to DIE-DIE-DIE!", and posted video of Putin saying that.
9 Wise Magically Wise Elders will now spend $45,947,233.56 taxpayer dollars, and 3 months, pondering WHO should be blamed: Yahoo News, or Putin?
...and Ketanji Brown Jackson [D] will be the #1 star insisting the gestapo police must fix the press. You're entirely on the wrong side if such things disturb you.
Your faulty indoctrination lies in your belief that Democracy ([WE] mob RULES!) is what ensures Liberty and Justice. The USA is NOT a democracy; Its a *Constitutional* Union of Republican States.
Google et al should never be held responsible for not moderating the way Karens want them to.
Agreed, kudos!
That's a convenient, if not trite, flight of fancy, but what if all the members of the 'et al.' get together and collude to moderate exactly the way the Karens tell them to, in writing? What then? Or what if all the members of the 'et al.' get together and collude to moderate say, COVID information, the way Karens tell them to under the auspices of saving lives but then refuse to moderate Jihadi propaganda under the same auspices?
Sure, it would be great if the 'et al.' didn't moderate beyond gratuitous nudity, swear words, threats of violence, and anything covered under a court order; and couldn't otherwise be responsible/liable for said moderation or the content that gets through as it belonged to the content generators and 'et al.' has no claim to it, but that's not the world we live in. Not that it all applies to this specific decision but it's all part and parcel.
Jackson has already admitted that she doesn't understand gender, not being a biologist. Ipso facto, she can't understand algorithms because she's not a mathematician. Give her a break.
A woman is what ku-klux Texans chase and try to kidnap to force into involuntary reproduction. To Republicans, adoption is what got George Santos voting with the girl-bullying prohibitionists.
The more I hear about Long Dong the more it seems like he's the real Clayton Bigsby.