The Cops Who Killed Tyre Nichols Could Be Convicted of Murder and Still Get Qualified Immunity
In his State of the Union address Tuesday, President Joe Biden said that he wants to hold police "accountable." But he neglected to mention the elephant in the room.

At his State of the Union address last night, President Joe Biden introduced the family of Tyre Nichols, who was killed in early January by Memphis Police Department (MPD) officers during a traffic stop. The footage, released several weeks later, was brutal and condemned almost universally, reigniting a stagnant debate about how to give victims of state violence some justice after their rights are violated by the government.
"When police officers or departments violate the public's trust," said Biden, "we must hold them accountable."
Absent from his speech was a suggestion for how to do that or how to ensure victims of state malfeasance have some sort of recourse.
That's not because such an avenue doesn't exist. But the issue has become politically radioactive, though it need not polarize people along partisan lines.
During the summer of 2020, the federal government seemed poised to offer some sort of reform to qualified immunity, the legal doctrine that shields local and state government actors—not just police—from facing federal civil suits when they violate someone's constitutional rights, so long as the way they infringe on the Constitution has not been "clearly established" in prior case law. That explains, for example, why two cops who allegedly stole $225,000 while executing a search warrant could not be sued for that act: While we would expect most people to know that was wrong, there was no court precedent that said theft under such circumstances was a constitutional violation.
It's an exacting standard that can defy parody in the ways in which it prevents victims of government abuse from seeking damages in response to government misconduct. In the case of Tyre Nichols, for example, it's quite plausible that the officers who killed him could be convicted of murder and still receive qualified immunity—a testament to how disjointed and unforgiving the doctrine can be.
This is not a hypothetical. Consider the case of Bau Tran, a former police officer in Arlington, Texas, who was indicted in 2019 for criminally negligent homicide after shooting and killing a man as he attempted to flee a traffic stop. (The case is still pending.) Tran received qualified immunity, with a federal court ruling that it was not "so clearly established that every reasonable officer" would have known his precise conduct was unconstitutional. O'Shae Terry, the deceased, initially complied at the traffic stop and then attempted to drive away, prompting Tran to jump on the side of the vehicle and ultimately fire five shots into the car. Perhaps a jury of Tran's peers would have denied Terry's family damages. We'll never know, however, as the family will be legally barred from even asking.
Accountability via the criminal courts is part of the equation. But prosecutors often hesitate to bring such charges, and a charge is not the same thing as a conviction. Should the officer who accidentally shot a 10-year-old boy while aiming at a nonthreatening pet dog face time in prison? Reasonable people may disagree, though it's arguably less reasonable to contend that the mother of that child should not receive compensation for the medical care her son required due to the government's negligence and abuse. Yet that was the reality for Amy Corbitt, who did not get to ask a jury to consider her civil case. The officer who shot her child received qualified immunity (and was not charged with a crime).
Those skeptical of qualified immunity reform typically cite an uneasiness about bankrupting officers. They can take heart that cities indemnify their employees against such claims, meaning the government pays any settlement. It's certainly an imperfect solution in terms of holding individual bad actors accountable, but it gives victims of state abuse an outlet to achieve some semblance of reparation. Make it so any settlements come out of a police pension fund, and you've created a major incentive for departments to excise its consistently problematic actors.
Biden's demurral at broaching the doctrine by name on Tuesday is an indicator of how risky the topic has become after years of criminal justice debate characterized by excess. In the case of qualified immunity, however, an inverse relationship exists between controversy and palatability across ideological lines. There's a reason the doctrine has drawn the ire of Supreme Court Justices Clarence Thomas and Sonia Sotomayor, when the two agree on little else. Those on the left may lament the barriers it poses to curbing police abuse. Those on the right may zero in on the doctrine's penchant for greenlighting big-government misconduct, as well as the fact that its genesis came as a result of judicial activism at the highest level. Instead, we're left with a status quo where government protects its own at the expense of the people it serves.
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If the cop is bad for send the victim’s picture to five people, is reason bad for publishing the same picture?
I think more than 5 people are probably going to see it now.
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“ qualified immunity, the legal doctrine that shields local and state government actors—not just police—from facing federal civil suits when they violate someone's constitutional rights, so long as the way they infringe on the Constitution has not been "clearly established" in prior case law.”
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
With a law that precludes convictions without precedent, how does a precedent get set in the first place?
I suspect that's most likely a screen capture from body camera footage that was released by the Memphis PD, not the picture mentioned briefly in the morning roundup.
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It's neither republican or democrats, it's government regulation. Not in the Government section of the federal code, but hidden in the tort code giving government employees immunity in their area of discretion "whether or not the discretion involved be abused."
§2680. Exceptions
The provisions of this chapter and section 1346(b) of this title shall not apply to—
(a) Any claim based upon an act or omission of an employee of the Government, exercising due care, in the execution of a statute or regulation, whether or not such statute or regulation be valid, or based upon the exercise or performance or the failure to exercise or perform a discretionary function or duty on the part of a federal agency or an employee of the Government, whether or not the discretion involved be abused.
Pretty sure that is the issue which needs to be addressed.
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President Joe Biden (D) is the nations top cop. He should set an example and surrender himself for the drone strike murders of eight children and an aid worker in Afghanistan that occurred under his authority.
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But the issue has become politically radioactive, though it need not polarize people along partisan lines.
What are you talking about? Politics is the only way to judge anything. In the case of police reform, Democrats are for it. That means that it must be opposed as a matter of principle. If Democrats opposed police reform then it would suddenly become a good thing. But as long as they support it it is bad.
Yawn.
Memphis is a blue city that has had a (D) mayor since 1992. This is the police they wanted, as disgusting as that is.
"In the case of police reform, Democrats are for it."
But only to the extent it doesn't rile up police unions and reduce those nice campaign contributions. So, actually, they aren't.
Ever see a Republican politician say anything critical of law enforcement?
Me neither.
'Disband the FBI'?
That's only because they're butthurt about Trump. Always principals. No principles.
Rand Paul (R) commented on the double standard applied to deadly BLM riots who were treated with kid gloves versus an unarmed protester being shot and killed by law enforcement at the Capitol.
I said Republican. He's somewhat libertarian which makes him a leftist according to the metrics used by the commentariat.
Rand Paul (R)
RINO
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No true Scotsman fallacy. Me pointing this out is not an ad hominem.
He's not Mitch McConnell, sarc.
Said no one, ever.
Nope. Not even a little. You keep peddling that bullshit, and no one is buying.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/white-house-actually-it-s-republicans-who-are-trying-defund-n1273292
I said "reform." Defunding is asinine if the root causes of the problems are not addressed.
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/17/879082580/republicans-police-reform-bill-focuses-on-transparency-and-training
Notice the date. June 2020. That was before the idea got popular with Democrats. One the left latched on, the right reflexively opposed the concept.
June 2020 was a month after the George Floyd incident and almost 6 years after Ferguson.
Then the riots started. At that point Republicans had no choice but to oppose police reform.
You don't think that 'police reform' was popular with the left prior to June 2020?
Sure it was. But were they actively talking about it and proposing actual changes? I don't think so. So there was nothing to oppose.
"We will work with police chiefs to invest in training for officers on issues such as de-escalation and the creation of national guidelines for the appropriate use of force. We will encourage better police-community relations, require the use of body cameras, and stop the use of weapons of war that have no place in our communities. We will end racial profiling that targets individuals solely on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, or national origin, which is un-American and counterproductive. We should report national data on policing strategies and provide greater transparency and accountability. We will require the Department of Justice to investigate all questionable or suspicious police-involved shootings, and we will support states and localities who help make those investigations and prosecutions more transparent, including through reforming the grand jury process. We will assist states in providing a system of public defense that is adequately resourced and which meets American Bar Association standards. And we will reform the civil asset forfeiture system to protect people and remove perverse incentives for law enforcement to "police for a profit.""
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2016-democratic-party-platform
Promises promises...
The reforms the Dems implemented in Memphis included, among other things, drastically lowering the requirements for diversity hires.
A minimum of two of the officers charged in this crime, and perhaps more, were hired under this diversification program.
And the justice reforms that the (Soros-backed) Democrats have introduced in my area, St. Louis, involves completely removing cash bail in most cases, not prosecuting people for violent crimes, and letting accused and often even convicted criminals out of jail.
Then they complain when people blame them or their policies for the high crime rates.
If Democrats are "for police reform", wouldn't you expect them to have already implemented it in those jurisdictions where they have complete control of all branches of the government? Like, say, all those big crime-infested D-controlled cities?
Democrats keep calling for congress to do it for them. Which is not their job. And why does congress need to do anything? These cities are almost always run by democrats. They can implement whatever reforms they choose. But little happens.
As usual, democrats are the source of the problem.
I'm not sure Qualified Immunity is meaningful in the Tyre Nichols case.
1) The officers have all been fired and charged, with as high a possible charge as can be justified. There's a very good chance they're going to be convicted.
2) The family is already suing the city, which has deeper pockets than the individual officers. The family will be very well compensated.
3) The Police Department has already disbanded the unit. The outcry is spurring reform within the department.
If Qualified Immunity is about holding officers accountable, they're going to be held accountable. If it's about compensating victims, the family will be compensated. If it's about changing policies, the policies are being revised.
I can't think of any good reason to bring up Qualified Immunity in the context of this particular case. It seems much more beneficial in cases when police are illegally enriching themselves through asset forfeiture and a citizen should have a tort against an individual officer and may not be able to reclaim damages from the city.
Irony. That's why QI was brought up. These officers might be convicted in a criminal court (assuming the prosecutor doesn't intentionally throw the case) and still be immune from a civil lawsuit.
If Qualified Immunity is about holding officers accountable, they’re going to be held accountable. If it’s about compensating victims, the family will be compensated. If it’s about changing policies, the policies are being revised.
Exactly this. I'm trying to think of what the last lawsuit I'd want to make in this situation (as the family or relations to Nichols), but suing the individual officers is near the bottom. It's literally a symbolic gesture at this point.
Qualified immunity is certainly something that needs to be addressed, but it's a factually incorrect statement to suggest that QI is the one thing that stands between the public and criminal accountability for public servants, or even compensation from lawsuits.
Suing a guy who makes $42,000 a year isn't going to net you millions in compensation for a case like this.
Suing a guy who makes $42,000 a year isn’t going to net you millions in compensation for a case like this.
Most cops double their salary with fake overtime, and then get “injured” in their last year so they retire with a pension plus disability. They’ve got money. Not millions, but they're not poor either.
Right, so we're going to put all our energy into suing a guy who makes $84,000 a year when your son is lying on the pavement, dead.
You trying to take away JesseAz's crown by arguing against things nobody said?
What are you talking about, the article subhed was "the elephant in the room" vis a vis Joe Biden's comments on police accountability. Did Joe Biden specifically say, "I want to hold police accountable by allowing individual officers [and other government officials] to be sued in civil court to achieve the accountability that these officers are escaping"?
No, then what the fuck are you talking about?
You said "all our energy." That's nothing but an elaborate strawman. Go pound sand.
If it's "the elephant in the room", then it's the primary obstacle taking up all the oxygen in the conversation in the realm of accountability here, no? No? Jesus, you simp so hard for Reason writers you just can't seem to abide any criticism of them.
FTA:
“When police officers or departments violate the public’s trust,” said Biden, “we must hold them accountable.”
Absent from his speech was a suggestion for how to do that or how to ensure victims of state malfeasance have some sort of recourse.
You hate Reason so much that you’re defending Biden. Wow.
No one is defending Biden. You must have started drinking early.
And further, you're the one trying to move goalposts here. I correctly pointed out that expecting some kind of serious financial compensation from an officer that makes $42,000 a year is probably not your best use of time and energy, and you respond and say, "Oh, they make more than $42,000 a year!"
That's not moving the goalposts. It's clarifying your error.
The error is yours. As usual.
"Suing a guy who makes $42,000 a year isn’t going to net you millions in compensation for a case like this."
No, but you know that you're going to make that guy's life a living hell for what part of it remains.
No you won't. He's in jail, he's got nothing but time, he earns $0 a month. Or... or are we hoping to see whatever assets he left behind to his family get eviscerated as well? In other words, punish the man's family?
You may be onto something here.
Yeah, I just don't get public good would be accomplished by a civil case against the officers in this case. It would symbolically send a message that officers shouldn't beat a suspect to death, but I would think the desire to not go to jail would be more sufficient. These guys weren't thinking they'd ever be held criminally liable, much less civilly liable, so the threat of civil liability does nothing.
I don't think QI needs to be completely abolished but there's certainly reforms we should push for. I just don't think this case is the proper vehicle for that push. If you weren't worried that you might spend the rest of your life in jail for treating a suspects head like a soccer ball, you probably weren't going to stop on the off chance they might garnish your wages to repay the family.
Yeah, I just don’t get public good would be accomplished by a civil case against the officers in this case.
I don't know whether or not a public good would be served. I have no problem with the individual officers being sued, and I would think that even WITH Qualified Immunity, if the officers have been charged for murder, then most courts could find that there is a precedent for a constitutional violation here.
This entire article stems from this statement:
it's quite plausible that the officers who killed him could be convicted of murder and still receive qualified immunity
It's ALWAYS possible for ANY public official to attempt to invoke QI when they find themselves the target of an individual lawsuit.
I don’t think QI needs to be completely abolished but there’s certainly reforms we should push for. I just don’t think this case is the proper vehicle for that push.
The problem with QI is that it's largely been turned into UNqualified immunity-- you seem to get immunity, no matter what. However, there are lots of cases where QI is invoked and rejected by the courts, we just don't hear about them much.
Also, If these officers DID get Qualified Immunity for killing Nichols, then I would submit that this case would be the PERFECT vehicle for reform. If you get QI when you've been convicted of murder, then if QI can't be scrutinized over that, then you've got a serious problem with how the doctrine is interpreted.
"If Qualified Immunity is about holding officers accountable, they’re going to be held accountable. If it’s about compensating victims, the family will be compensated. If it’s about changing policies, the policies are being revised."
It's about none of those things.
It's about turning the taking of the job, into such a financially perilous undertaking that no one will want to do it.
The "true libertarian" doesn't want anyone to be a police officer.
For too long they have spoiled all their fun, when they went out smoking weed.
In his State of the Union address Tuesday, President Joe Biden said that he wants to hold police "accountable." But he neglected to mention the elephant in the room.
Qualified immunity isn't the elephant in the room. I'm not sure it's the mouse in the room, and it might not be the cockroach in the room. They murdered someone, so the elephant in the room is a criminal conviction for murder. The family being able to individually sue the officers while they sit in their prison cells with zero income is nothing more than a symbolic gesture.
Qualified Immunity, as bad as it is such a small issue in this particular case that it wouldn't even qualify as a sideshow.
As a follow on thought, the family clearly has a lawsuit against the city. Or at least as far as I can tell they do. I believe there were some facts about this municipality dropping certain requirements for hiring to address 'equity' issues on the force. There's your multi-kajillion dollar lawsuit.
"hey! we can thug it up and have badges."
I believe there were some facts about this municipality dropping certain requirements for hiring to address ‘equity’ issues on the force.
No law firm that cares at all about their ESG score is gonna touch that with a ten foot pole. And no Democrat and/or race hustler on the left will either, and neither will any Republican who doesn't want to be accused of "racism." So that particular issue isn't going away anytime soon.
Suing a group of working class black men is certainly not going to interfere with that ESG score.
But in the eyes of the ESG scammers, those "working class black men" are really white supremacists.
>>Instead, we're left with a status quo where government protects its own at the expense of the people it serves.
dude ... basis for entire Ruling Class
Yeah, why else would you even have a government? That's its entire purpose. That and getting in people's way.
Amazing the lengths GOPers will go to poo-poo QI reform, for no reason other than not liking the people who support it.
Who's poo-pooing QI reform? Speaking for myself, I'm just responding to the way this article characterized QI in this particular case: We're standing over the dead, battered body of a victim of police violence, the officers have been charged (and will likely be convicted, although that's going to depend on the jury) and we're calling the possible inability for the victim's family to sue a couple of salary-men the "elephant in the room". It ain't. It ain't even close to the elephant in the room.
"It ain’t. It ain’t even close to the elephant in the room."
Such a statement should probably be followed by a description of what, in your opinion, is the elephant in the room.
No, if I say I don't like Obamacare, I don't HAVE to provide my detailed alternate plan, otherwise Obamacare should therefore become the law of the land due to my inability to provide and adequate counter.
Merely pointing out that a tiny, infinitesimally small issue in the case being discussed does not require that I provide an adequate replacement.
Ah yes. The typical "It won't fix everything so don't talk about it! Stop talking about it!" argument.
Understood.
It won't fix ANYTHING in this situation.
Yep. So don't bother. Don't talk about it. Stop talking about it. Only leftists want to reform QI anyway.
Stop calling it the "elephant in the room".
I don't know if you're obfuscating on purpose or not. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here.
The "elephant in the room" is QI and other reforms to policing in the country.
Nichols is an example. Granted it's not the greatest example, but you're so focused on that tree that you can't see the forest.
The “elephant in the room” is QI and other reforms to policing in the country.
It's not, by your own admission it's not. It's just one angle regarding accountability.
We've discussed this ad-nauseum before, and I've been 100% correct in every prediction I've made. Reason has touted several districts and states which have "eliminated" qualified immunity, and when you read the laws (which I did in every single case) you discover they've done no such thing. They've merely 'bonded' the officers by limiting their personal liability, and essentially given them a kind of 'state' insurance so if they're individually sued, the state will cover their expenses. A kind of 'malpractice' lawsuit, if you will.
If you eliminated QI tomorrow, by simply magicking it off the books, every state and municipality will merely provide a blanket malpractice insurance for their individual employees. We don't have to speculate about that, we've watched it happen in real time.
Again we're back to the perfect being the enemy of the good. QI wouldn't matter much in this particular case, and it won't fix everything. So why bother to discuss it? Whatever.
Here is the thing about QI. There is an argument for not holding an officer personally responsible for following their agency's policy. The government should be liable for that. If what they did violated policy, then they can be personally liable. The courts seem to have gone a bit mad with applying QI.
Of course they have. No one in this dear land we call the US would like to see QI eviscerated more than I. Even more so than the simps defending Reason writers under any and all circumstances.
Imagine... for a moment, a bunch of kids who were tricked into transitioning by their teachers come to realize they were duped into an irreversible life-changing set of decisions, and they have decided to sue the individual teachers who used their classrooms as a pulpit for their deluded ideology. The teachers can be individually sued because the school system had no specific policy for pushing kids into transition, and these were teachers who took it upon themselves to push kids into transition... to groom them, if you will. Imagine the awesome flood of lawsuits we could hit teachers with by children and families of children who were harmed by this toxic ideology.
"But, I thought QI was just about police!!!"
Even more so than the simps defending Reason writers under any and all circumstances.
Like when I defended Trump in this article?
https://reason.com/2023/02/07/despite-his-record-donald-trump-plans-to-run-as-an-anti-war-republican/
A more accurate statement would be that you feel the need to attack Reason writers no matter what they say, under any and all circumstances, because you're still butthurt about them being mean to Trump.
This lines up with how I believe QI needs to be reformed.
If an officer (or any public employee) is doing the normal duties of their job in good faith, they should not be held personally liable for any injury resulting from their conduct or decisions. If anything, the government body that oversees them could be sued, but it's a high bar to pass if the policies are legal and correctly applied.
If they are violating the law or policy or otherwise acting in bad faith, abusing their authority, or acting with reckless disregard to the safety of people or property, then they should be fair game for both prosecution and civil lawsuits, and the governing body that supervises them should be able to be sued as well.
Aside from the main points of the article here, it caused me to wonder - again - why the families of victims enjoy some kind of celebrity status, as if they had done something to deserve media or public attention. They may or may not be good people; the victims themselves may or may not have been good people. The issue of police abuse has nothing whatsoever to do with the victims or their families and everything to do with the police officers and the agencies that enable their crimes.
++
If the police officer acts criminally and against the government's rules and laws, how is that the government's negligence and abuse?
I think the standard should be that if a police officer has been found criminally guilty, then he should be personally liable for his conduct.
If they had a law or policy in effect, but a history of not enforcing it or holding their employees accountable when they violate it, I could see how they might be liable for fostering a culture of indifference to their own rules.
Arguably, it might be a worse situation than not having a rule at all.
One of the more upside-down things about Qualified Immunity is that the way the courts currently look at it, it's as if 'If there isn't a specific rule against it, then it's all fair game . . . ' When, in theory, our government is supposed to be set up in a manner that anything that isn't specifically allowed is off-limits.
Reason-and Billy Binion in particular-have something of a history of overselling the "clearly established" component of qualified immunity.
Yes, there are some conditions under which the government might be found liable. But those conditions need to be clearly established.
It shouldn’t be the case that every time an officer hurts someone, taxpayers automatically foot the bill.
9.2.23 FROM UK.TO REASON.POLICE KILL TYRE NICHOLS. Readin about that country makes us a combination of fury and despair cos its just a boosted edition of UK. Heres a n offer- give us the control and back us wuth miltary and we will scub that place clean from top to bottom, No more cliques and corrupt affinity groups, no more advatage taking. Kids and parents re educated. stop the apalling love of actors, sports heros, fashion models. Clean out religions.and so on. Extreme discipline with manic fairness. Behind the lunacy there is Mental Health symptoms nurtured by the mutinational Psychiatry clowns and drug firms.Now read about UK below. Dont read it like a seed catalogue.
Entitled 'dying for some money. A country out of control but controlled by drugs. 1000Pp gathered cent london on foot despite police violence. This unique action unfunded therefore unbiased took 12-15 yrs. We didn't find more than one or two people who gave a jot. The police have tried to destroy the evidence and have used actual violence to try to stop the exposure. All of that has failed. Only six police broke ranks. Here's a few of their comments- yeah you are right take the uk on and we the police will join you. If this goes on in this country it will soon be alight end to end.. Don't blame us its the fault of our bosses they are crazy. Dont take any notice what the home office tell you because they are paranoid liars.
You aware are you not that ignoring a crime report sent to a police org is a crime similar to or actually ' attempting to pervert the course justice''. Ignoring this crime report will be widely exposed throughout uk in any event. The old bail et were either very unwise or brave to give us a note admitting whats going on. When we went there we reckon we made legal system history but it was hushed up like most important issues in uk.
No its not unsolicited mail .Anymore than road signs are. Deleting these texts is an illegal act because the evidence refers to cover ups by thousands people regarding establishment caused deaths going back over 30 years. The public are so clueless and indoctrinated they think they can delete what they dont like or approve of. Thats like uprooting a 30 mph sign because you are determined to travel at 32 mph. No its nothing to do with - opinion. Conspiracy theory. Big bangs. Quizzes. Actors. Art. Tv drama. Cruises. Sport.Hero's. Fashion models. Architecture.. Chefs. There are no guns being waved or vehicles exploding in sheets of fire. No smarmy us lawyers dating men either. So the fact is probably 50% people wont read this. Thats the price which is paid for the development of a schizophrenic parenting and schooling policy which is impriting kids with political party and religious beliefs,.Bear in mind this has not been proofread to any intense level. We are not parasite journalists or newsreaders we are doers prevented from doing by deliberate acts of violence directed here by the religious. Council. Local press health rings and willingly carried out by the highly dangerous uk police with the full blessing of the home office and mps. Theres just one snag it has not worked.This is the biggest exposure of corruption seen in modern history. The text contains statements of fact truth reality backed by an affidavit. It puzzled us for a long time that selfish uncaring people were going out to run up and down raising money for 'a goodcause'. Then someone advised us - 'dont bother trying to reason that because theres no reason in insanity. We admit we felt a bit more satisfied as a result. If tesco ever wake up to the huge frauds which have gone on at sutton they might be more concerned about their own future than they seem to be.A country full of groups and cliques. Whats the future in lets say a village. North walsham harbouring the liberal party (knows nothing about mental health) lawyer mr lamb employed by the nhs to hand mental health over to the police of all people (they have kiiled over 400 people and some patients who faiiled to find us got beaten to death by them). They then escaped justice because the coroner did a hush up on it. When we went to that court they tiried to push us off the seats then on another visit they were hiding behind the cutains whilst the guilty police legged it fast as poss towards the station.) .. In north walsham and other villages will be around four political orgs and maybe two or three religions. And other groups all looking for self gain. If you the public think thats a community think again. This was all set up by the biscuits and body weight expert eric pickles who refuses to reply. Its corruption alright and now the kids are taught how to do it. How sick is that??.How in heavens name the police acheive relations with females is beyond my level of intelligence to figure. Does that indicate the kids the generated are taught the same tricks if so heaven help this country.
Biggest exposure of corruption in recent history of uk with a cast of thousands including many of the so called general public. Despite popular opinion no political party cept ours is any different. This situation has come about by the plague of beliefs that dictate that you need to create impressions rather than demonstrate truth and fact. Hence the avalanche of websites with impressive photos and genius text layouts which infest the internet. This applies to the advertising of products too. I dont need to see a vehicle perched on top of mountain or driving thro some horrific over lit power wasting city office high rises. In fact we wont entertain any of them (which gives us little choice). Whilst on the subject we also avoid any products advertised by the rich or famous. Why should a chat show corrupter be considered an expert on life insurance. Why should an ex overpaid clueless sports character be considered a authority on food products and why does a so called famous chef appear recommending a salt filled stock cube. Heres some of the 1000pp evidence gathered over 12 yr period on foot unpaid in cent london and elsewhere. This was conducted because of the deaths being covered up within the mental health system .We refer to courts. Coroners. Law firms. Four political orgs. Health. London mayors office. Councils. Charities and commission. Politicians and govt ministers. Euro parl office. Treasury. Police and security orgs.. Parking enforcement. Freemasons. Sport religions the police -all areas but specifically thames valley. Norfolk. Manchester. Bristol. London. Hertfordshire. The giant catholic religion at southwark and others. . Irish embassy. Other embassies. Crown prosecution . Added recently are office statistics or census head office. Prescriber chemists attached to nhs surgeries. Loads schools and colleges. Universities incl - leeds (law dept). Bristol (horrific). Derby. Manchester. (Student unions horrific) etc. Mirror group ec1. Daily mail. Dimbleby press. Bristol post. Manch even news backed by owners mirror group ec1.East anglian daily press. Witney press. Home office. So called health sites now springing up all over uk and out of control. Heritage lottery fund. Var so called volunteer orgs set up by cameron and assoc with bbc local radio.. Liphook and southampton chambers of trade with loads members. Thames valley police hq kidlington council. Liphook coincil. Community action kidlington. Same thing southampton and elsewhere. Coroners nationally.Bbc tv and radio. Channel 4. Specific names are - cameron. Clegg (involved in scams with religions and bbc salford). Grayson. Grove. Brennan. Hunt. May (home office) pickles (corrupt councils and no communitycept when its of benefit to him). Mps- hollingsberry. Hants. Williams bristol.Constituency office of camerons at witney which includes lord chadlington who supplies cameron with money. Elles euro mp. Bernstein chief exec manch city council. Dept of statistics (census so called horrific findings as result going round there) miltary base in hants supported by the catholic religion (what happened to the thou shall not killl idea) and others. This list is not final. Evidence gathered despite police and other violence. Read on --
background.
Some yrs ago a friend our became ill whilst sitting in our kitchen and because we knew nothing of stress symptoms we didnt know how to proceed. He had been to doctors but as usual no result. Anyway he himself suggested we call someone and to be honest we thought the idea was a bit odd but we went ahead. (No it was not re psychology or psychiatry). To cut a very long period short we were impressed but what transpired and decided to look into the subject of mental health or more accurately personal change and unlike our friend we spent months looking at the world situationn. Luckily for us we found training schemes that were light yrs ahead of what we had been looking at in uk and in fact when we started indulging inb the technology often fell asleep whilst reading books etc because we could not stop reading. Sometimes the material was frightening because it unearthed issues within ourselves thart needed addressing but we battled on. We spent about three yrs whilst studying within a group we formed in order to obtain real experience and week in week out we worked very very hard leaving no areas of incompetence hidden. The yrs rolled by and having done a lot of work on various behavioural issues on var people we though its time to address the nhs systems failings.We informed a durgery of our intentions and suddenly were told we were being sent major clients, this seemed totaly foolhardy to us because in that field you should test people out before risking maybe the lives of serious patients. We were worried because the nhs told us these clients had been in secure units for over 20 yrs and nothing could be done so the nhs wanted then 'off their backs'. My partner was more worried than me and when we saw the size of the med record she freaked out. I got hold of it and hurled it into a bin. My philosophy was nothing can be that difficult and in fact i as usual smelled a rat. As it happens i was right the clients that were sent labelled as psychotic took us about 8 hours to get results followed by a second social only chat. And in fact we had to spin out the time to make sure we got a decent fee. To our surprise we found that the clients said we were the first people they could trust in the last 20 yrs and that included their families who were urging them to submit to more abuse. These victims then started to outline their experiences within the nhs. Police. Local press . Councils drug marketing mill which included being told - ''we can killyou and bury you in the grounds and no-one will complain because the public think you are dangerous therefore good riddance and the church is on our side not yours'. At that moment our brain cells seemed to be re aligning and all the things we believed about our friends and the society seemed to collapse .We had been warned during training that clients would teach us more than our lecturers but this was more than we bargained for. We sat there spellbound.We also were obliged to teach clients to act as if they still had the problem because otherwise the social services would try to force them back to the original state. This tactic worked a treat. We used to sit around laughing at their antics which surely were substance based.
We then were told, on the second visit all about what had been done to these clients by the nhs system. Social services. Councils. Hospitals police etc. We sat there in complete disbelief because this was uk not soviet union. To be honest we thought the whole thing doubtful but being very middle class kept silent and did not argue. Two years later the whole thing became shockingly clear. Durinfg that time we were sent other clients, one was a covent garden dancer who for 6 yrs had been getting 'help' from the nhs then private systems.Inc the horriific priory unit. This is the org which goes along with the nhs drug policy and cover ups and is therefore promoted like the charities mind who is funded for doing cover ups by the heritage lottery. Another charity doing the same is age uk and others like sainsbury. The priory also is promoted by the govt installed ccgswhicj are a situated in all localities with the object on instituting health services. They assure the public that they have several mental health experts on their boards byt when we asked to talk to those individuals we found the whole thing was a fraud. We dont know if there are finacial bribes going on but the logic of it once more escapes us. This woman was about to kill herself when we got there in middle of the nite and we had great difficulty getting in because she thought we were another version of the same old thing. She was off work and had more or less lost her relationship with of all people a gp. On the way there i already had an idea of the issue and was correct. We spent all nite there and then spent another five hours a week later. She went back to work and we checked six months hence and all was well.
We were then informed by the nhs that they wanted to give us £60.000 Twice. And we said that in any case either way the work cant stop. We were told thank goodness we found you because we just had some social workers round and after we had to fumigate the place. But then suddenly all communication was cut off and letters not answered. However a few months later all comms were severed we were told that we must stop work because of complaints about loss of earnings by nhs staff and the private systen such as bupa etc we called bupa and they said - 'no one is allowed to talk to anyone here' and put the phone down. This is odd because by then we were getting clients from the private med system but they were staff who worked there who did not want the horrors of using their own funded mental health clowns. The highly dangerous and incompetent social services told us - we want you dead. We then began to get funeral and other services sent round and police menace also we were asked to do work on a client who had been unable to go outside of his dwelling for years and was full of drugs. Within two hours he suddenly silently got up opened the door and disappeared. We were scared and worried and sat there for what seemed hours. He came back after about an hour and had been running and walking all through the local streets. The odd thing is he then went silent and so we left. Within a few months we see him go sailing past waving driving a car. He then had tbhe neck to knock at the door to borrow tools as the car had gone wrong. We then got a call some days later asking if we could help him as he could not fix the vehicle. Being somewhat stupid we ended up under the car covered in oil and grit. Having just got home there was a rapping on the door and even the windows so thinking the car had gone wrong again we went outside. In the road was an ambulance, police cars and a woman. She said i had to get into the ambulance and she also said i looked dirty and was obviously ill and that i had not seen my gp for years. I didnt let her know that we did no longer need nhs health because we by then were getting clients sent by west end doctors who also were providing free private health cover. We of course told the woman to clear off. We then a few weeks later came upon a diagnostic sample for analysing the woman and the outcome was the worst and most extreme case of mania we have ever seen. We dont know how many people she killed and we dont know where she is at present but she was and is protected by lunatic police..Theres an even sadder sequel to the man with a car. He was being drugged by a friend of ours a gp. We could not let him know what we were doing otherwise the utterly corrupt health auth may have blackmailed him so we kept it under wraps but a day came when the said doctor said the only way out of the nhs for him was suicide because he was depressed by the squandering of money. We dont know the outcome and we feel some guilt.. Ii do know one thing,if anyone knocks at our door for help now the firsrt thing they will see is watch out for the dog.
We also began to notice that the local press articles re mental health and establ involved fatalities did not align with what we were noticing, this deeply puzzled us so we wrote to the n-paper run by dimbleby. There was no response. We now were starting to appreciate that it could be corruption even though up to then we knew 100s people at the bbc. In the theatre. Police. Probation system. Prison service. And even govt. Etc etc. By then we had started going to the advertised public health and other meetings and had met another victim who this time opened a case and showed us law documents. One again we were out of our depth and in fact worogly thought is he mad or what. We did not even conact him as requested but he was much smarter than us and demanded a meeting. A year later we found out that the man with the documents was not mad but a total genius and also a very very clever strategist. He was also had a quality that we at that time did not have that is unbreakability in the face of violent and other abuse. The establ had tried desperately to stop his disclosures and raided his dwelling to lock him in a osych ward at the hosp where the mngr/psych had told us -'competence has no value' when we rang her to complain that we were doing remedial work on her patients and even doctors from there for next to no reward when she was getting huge sums money. The bizarre situatio arose where if we went near the place the police would attack us. We then got access to the place by enrolling on a religous course there because there was, of all things a church in the grounds. What happened nxt was the staff, when quizzed abot the place said 'we dont blab but that psych has killed people and its been covered up by the police. Courts. Local press and our religion'. We noticed that the attendance at the said church was mainly ousiders from the middle classes and it took then a year to rumble our disguise. They got ver very suspicious when they discovered we had got a woman to walk having been in a wheelchair for yrs at the place staring out the winwow for hours on end till we turned up. Someone musy have blown the whistle because at a mumbo jumbo church service we went to all the people got up and moved as far away from our seats as they could, some of them waving at us from a distance. We thien started to pusue this woman psych but suddenly she was transferred to broadmoor to prevent us pursuing her further and that tactic worked and is similar to police deception...
Meanwhile we found out what the combined police. Mental health, social serices. Lcourt. Local press ring had done, it seemed they tried everything they could to destroy this man with the case of documents and family but they slipped up, he unfortunately for them was made of granite and also was a strategist the like of which we had never encountered, he had, we found out, been going backwards and forwards to a tory mp/minister in the dept health. This man was hoodwinking him and merely acting as a post box address. This man was hooked into the psych woman who had killed people. When we turned up he tried the usual trick of offering to call the police, we told him yes go ahead we want you locked up. We then asked ';what have you done about this man being locked in a psych hosp by force when theres nothing wrong with him ? mr minister said - i did not know about it'. We then said to the victim - ' open your case and show this idiot all the documents he countersigned. Mr idiot then said -'im not responsible for anything' im calling the police'. Thats how sick he was and not only that he was hooked into the 'mental' hosp that we infiltrated. Thats the place where the staff said - 'we dont blab but the shrink here has killed people and it was hushed up by the local police/press/ council/coroner./Court/ mind charity/ unison ring'. The shrink admitted that 'competence has no value'. Thats the place from which staff and patients came to us for help in secret because if we went near there the police would use violence but saville was allowed in and out being no threat to the mngt or police only the clients,we pursued the shrink but the staff said she had been moved to broadmoor to stop us questioning here further. Perhaps she gone as an inmate. We then left having told the minister that his career was ended. We then drowned the middle class tory flagship freemason corruption awith the evidence and the idiot disappeared. Meanwhile the local middle class alm ost ridiculed us when we complained about bowis the said 'everyone knows john is insane did ntyou'. He then emerged as a euro mp. And when we went to the euro parl office about him they said nothing can be done about corrupt euro mp so go round the home office. But whilst making our way there they tipped the home office off and we sat there for two hours staring at a huge neon sign saying how much they love the public. They loved us so much that they started putting the lights out and going home so we we were forced to leave otherwise we would still be there..
We now began to get into a stride and one day visited the dimbleby press. A young journalist sat opposite with the usual notebook and we started to outline what we had been finding. She looked panicky and when i asked her why nothing was being written she got up and ran behind a door locking it. We sat there dumbfounded. I did some investigation and found that the journalist was the daughter of a friend ours, a teacher and councillor so now the pennies were dropping with a vengeance. We exposed the newspaper and it collapsed, the staff there told us that mr dimbleby was not interested in the papers content or what we had found going on. We noticed recently the other dimbleby character appearing on the bbc in a radio programme from herts, thats the police area which refuses to reply to life death evidence whilst their website once again paints a picture og an idyllic society with deeply loving police.. Dimbleby accompanied by the corrupt minister of law grayson and guess who a woman who acts like an estate agent on prime time tv and who apparently shops in sloan street on the wages. We asked herts police about this because the so called commissioner just like thames valley paints a picture of himself as angelic and herts as paradise. Is he on the same stuff as the cabinet office assures us the ministers are on.. Or what? we know one thing if nothing is done about all this there will be no uk. Can anyone explain why theres thousands of psychologists. Psychiatrists. Sociologists. Behaviouralists. Profilers in the uk being turned out like baked beans yet not one have noticed whats going on. Can anyone explain why we were trying to explain about one paragraph of this evidence to someone about 18 yrs old. She said she was not interested in anything like that because she was going to university. We politely asked what she was going to do there she said 'study sociology' whats the bet shes now working for bupa or the home office or the police.Pick the bones out of that oh so clever freemason background city of london police. Dont forget that loony boris johnson. His office said - 'hes not interested in evidence corruption he jut wants people riding bikes thro parks'. Oh dear the drugs are not working are they. Got to go inspector morse is on. Cheerio.
Completely missing from this article is the fact that the family has a wrongful death claim against the police under state tort law. As bad as QI is, it's not doing much work here. The family can still - rightly - get millions from the police.
These police are being prosecuted in state courts for violations of state law. Qualified immunity protects police against being sued in federal court for violations of the federal_constitution. It is entirely possible to be a felon under the laws of your state without breaking the federal constitution.
To me, the more important issue than federal QI is why so many plaintiffs resort to federal rather than state courts. Are state constitutions and laws somehow defective when it comes to protecting the rights of their residents?