When Does an Ugly Facebook Message Qualify as an Illegal 'True Threat' of Violence? SCOTUS Will Decide.
The Supreme Court takes up “true threats” and the First Amendment in Counterman v. Colorado.

"If there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment," the U.S. Supreme Court said in Texas v Johnson (1989), "it is that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable." What that principle means in practice is that all sorts of vile and despicable speech—including hate speech—are constitutionally protected.
But the Court has also said that the First Amendment has its limits. One of them involves "true threats" of violence, which the Court in Virginia v. Black (2003) defined as "those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals." The First Amendment, the Court held, "permits" the government "to ban a 'true threat.'"
Deciding what actually counts as a "true threat" is not such an easy task, however, as the Supreme Court seems to recognize. Last week, the Court agreed to hear arguments in Counterman v. Colorado, which asks, in the question presented to the Court, "whether, to establish that a statement is a 'true threat' unprotected by the First Amendment, the government must show that the speaker subjectively knew or intended the threatening nature of the statement, or whether it is enough to show that an objective 'reasonable person' would regard the statement as a threat of violence."
Billy Raymond Counterman was convicted under a Colorado anti-stalking law after sending numerous Facebook messages from different accounts to a musician, including statements to the musician such as "Fuck off permanently" and "You're not being good for human relations. Die. Don't Need You." The musician never responded to any of his messages, blocked his account, and ultimately filed a restraining order against him.
The state law that Counterman was convicted under makes it illegal to repeatedly make "any form of communication with another person…that would cause a reasonable person to suffer serious emotional distress and does cause that person…to suffer serious emotional distress." Whether or not Counterman actually intended to convey a threat was immaterial under the state law. His mindset was not at issue. The Supreme Court will now weigh that state law against its own First Amendment precedents.
Counterman v. Colorado has implications that reach far beyond the ugly Facebook messages of one man. As the Cato Institute observed in an amicus brief, "the Nation is undergoing a communications revolution, driven by unprecedented new forms of online expression—and unprecedented new attempts by government to monitor and restrict such expression. This case is the right vehicle to set clear, badly needed boundaries for government authority to limit online expression through the harsh cudgel of criminal prosecution."
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Was the artist Nickelback? If so, this is understandable. The judges also accept Skrillex as a correct answer.
Calling Nickelback artists is a blatant libel.
“Calling Nickelback artists is a blatant libel.”
As opposed to Nickel Creek, wherein the term “artists” is well-deserved.
Agree.
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I'd say something about them being Canadian, except one of my favorite bands hails from Toronto.
Tegan and Sara?
(for the record, I like T&S)
He is referring to Anne Murray
She's from Nova Scotia originally.
I had to look it up, but she apparently was billed out of Toronto. Not unlike Sarah McLaughlin claiming BC as home instead of her maritime birthplace.
McLachlan, you uncultured bastard.
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Metric.
Edit: My favorite T&S song is performed by the White Stripes.
I’ll give you that. Metric is a good band.
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The fucking drums. Just listen. That guy has the best job in the world.
Crash Test Dummies
The Crash Test Dummies were from Winnipeg
https://twitter.com/DrewHLive/status/1616017444149264384?t=EpQk3tuEhKZPfvZ2tY5YWA&s=19
DAVOS WATCH: Director of FBI Christopher Wray says “the level of collaboration between the private sector and the government, especially the FBI has made significant strides”
He states the FBI’s concern about technology getting into who they determine are the wrong hands #wef23
[Video]
Christopher Wray says “the level of collaboration between the private sector and the government, especially the FBI has made significant strides”
What comes next after the Stasi? And why is Wray proud that the FBI is now beyond that?
why is Wray proud that the FBI is now beyond that?
Because he's a fascist shit weasel.
Stop your conspiracy theories, nobody had the facts they were doing it. - sarc.
Counterman v. Colorado
Counterman is the dumbest of all the MCU superheroes.
He’s currently in Colorado; do you think he’d do better if he was in DC?
Pretty sure She-Hulk still holds that title (assuming we're only talking about the MCU version of the character, not the original comics version).
Ms. Marvel is a close second.
She Hulk's actress is likable. The writing on the show was just atrocious. I actually think the cast was pretty good, but had some awful material to work with.
On the flip side, I didn't enjoy any of Captain Marvel. Brie Larson is insufferable and I just didn't enjoy the story.
I'll stand up for Ms. Marvel because I enoyed the first half of it (which is all I watched.) The wokeness was annoying, but it wasn't as bad as it could be. For me it was just a bit refreshing to see the different cultural stuff even if they forced that and the history a bit much.
Brie Larson strikes me as an entitled ‘feminist’, who sees herself as a victim when she isn’t just handed everything. She projects this into her acting and comes off as a joyless bitch.
At least she has decent tits.
AFAICT, her best role was lip syncing as Scott Pilgrim's evil ex.
DC’s Count Chocula was better.
A close second is Correctchangeman.
Sounds like just another day in the Reason comment section.
On a related note, which Reason commenter is Billy Raymond Counterman?
Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo!
A shoe-in candidate with a rotted shoe instead of a brain in its head!
Did Billy Ray use CAPS LOCK much?
These aren't threats and could never be recognized as threats. They're commands or requests-the other person has to participate in them in order to actually be harmed. If you don't kill yourself in request to a command to kill yourself, no harm has happened.
And if this is just taking place on Facebook or any social media, you have a button you can press to block them. I can't see how this would cause any emotional distress when you're able to easily disengage from this.
If Facebook wants to take internal actions to temporarily suspend or even ban an account for sending messages like this, that's not a big deal to me. It's not like it's discriminating a viewpoint, it's shutting down someone who's intent is to annoy or bother someone else intentionally.
I can't even view this as harassment, barring more facts (maybe he made multiple accounts and engaged across multiple platforms and made phone calls?), so it's not even going to get close to a true threat threshold. I don't know how this made it to SCOTUS.
Like all Root posts, I suspect there is way more to this and he just can't be arsed to do more than required (just look how short this is compared to your typical Volokh article).
I can’t even view this as harassment, barring more facts (maybe he made multiple accounts and engaged across multiple platforms and made phone calls?)
Sounds like he did use multiple FB accounts, but don't know about other platforms or phone calls. Maybe there were other messages that would rise to the level of true threats? I don't know.
The CO law he was convicted of seems awfully vague: "any form of communication with another person…that would cause a reasonable person to suffer serious emotional distress and does cause that person…to suffer serious emotional distress." So, hurting someone's feelings is against the law in CO? Seems like a violation of 1A to me but then again, I'm not one of the 9 Nazgul so I don't have the secret version of the constitution with the "FYTW" clause written on the back in invisible ink.
JFC calls about your car's warranty are about to expire qualify as harassment but calls to die don't? Block one account and another gets made to keep up the diatribe, so all good because it's 'really' not the same person doing it? Using he/him pronouns instead of ze/zim pronouns is literal murder but this is harmless right? Since you don't believe this is even close to true threats level of discourse perhaps you could provide a bright line example of what is? Something that the rest of us could pontificate upon.
No shit the reason comments are 10x worse than this guy's. He needs to step up his game!
"...including statements to the musician such as "Fuck off permanently" and "You're not being good for human relations. Die. Don't Need You." ...
This VERY much sounds like our own domestic terrorist, Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo! Maybe "the law" will "Mute User" on Sevo the Pedo for us!
https://twitter.com/AndrewLawton/status/1616132115946668033?t=CsnoDDdmumQDBDrAq_iZMg&s=19
This afternoon the World Economic Forum hosted a session called “Improving Livelihoods with Digital ID”. It was not streamed and was not open to the press.
[Link]
"improving livelihoods" [of the lizard people] " with digital ID" for the proles.
It was not streamed and was not open to the press.
Gee, I wonder why? /sarc
>>the First Amendment has its limits
no, people who should not apply 1A limits do so, but incorrectly.
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illegal to repeatedly make “any form of communication with another person…that would cause a reasonable person to suffer serious emotional distress and does cause that person…to suffer serious emotional distress.”
Sorry CO, but emotional distress is not violence. It may result from harassment, which may be a crime itself, but it is not violence.
Right, and I don't even see harassment here based on what Reason has presented. If you're engaging and sending nasty messages on a single platform, the receiver of those messages can easily block you. It would require engagement from him to actually read those in order to be offended.
He'd need to make multiple accounts or set up bots or use multiple platforms to reach the level of harassment.
"any form of communication with another person…that would cause a reasonable person to suffer serious emotional distress
Uhh... I have questions.
"Oh, very well. Make that 'any form of communication with another person…that would cause a seriously emotional person to suffer reasonable distress'."
Questions cause me serious emotional distress.
You did a crime!
Apparently CO has made it illegal to be a big meanie.
But the Court has also said that the First Amendment has its limits. One of them involves "true threats" of violence
"you should fuck off and die" is not a true threat of violence but the problem is that the system will just call anything it doesnt like a "true threat" of violence.
Wait til "deadnaming" and "misgendering" mentally ill teenagers becomes a "true threat" of violence.
Hopefully there was no mention of woodchippers.
See Sheila Jackson-Lee's proposed bill.
Posting certain statistics counts as conspiracy to commit true threats of violence.
"Wait til “deadnaming” and “misgendering” mentally ill teenagers becomes a “true threat” of violence."
Well, since most reactions from that side of things usually culminates in "You're literally killing us! We're DYING!," I would expect it to happen quickly, if at all, since they already believe it in their minds.
Wait til “deadnaming” and “misgendering” mentally ill teenagers becomes a “true threat” of violence.
I wouldn't be surprised if it already is in some places (Canada being the most obvious) but it sounds like under this law in CO at least, someone could already be charged with a crime for that.
All it takes is a re-definition of what "would cause a reasonable person to suffer serious emotional distress." If you define "reasonable person" to include mentally ill teens and "serious emotional distress" to being made to feel bad by someone pointing out basic biology then there you go!
Wouldn't a true threat of violence be a good thing? At least you might get a head start, or have time to duck.
https://twitter.com/alx/status/1615760140527087616?t=V-qIILKJxOBRBkO7Y4X06Q&s=19
The WEF is “predicting” catastrophic global cyber attacks
Pay attention.
[Video]
Predicting or planning?
Is there a difference?
Nein
Poh-TAY-toe Poh-TAH-toe
Just like they "predicted" a worldwide pandemic
"those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals."
Not even close.
"Fuck off permanently" and "You're not being good for human relations. Die. Don't Need You." sent through an internet service doesn't meet that standard.
Looks like the supremes are going to give the governments permission to further erode the protections of the US Constitution.
“The state law that Counterman was convicted under makes it illegal to repeatedly make "any form of communication with another person…that would cause a reasonable person to suffer serious emotional distress and does cause that person…to suffer serious emotional distress."”
So I can sue the state if they send me a tax bill, and follow it up with more if I don’t respond? They generally cause me emotional distress.
Unfortunately they probably don't count being threatened with theft by government agents to be something "that would cause a reasonable person to suffer serious emotional distress." On the other hand, mis-gendering a mentally ill person probably does make the cut. Because welcome to Clown World.
What does the constitution say about online communication?
There are many legal limitations to free speech today.
Lying in court is perjury. Necessarily criminalized for the justice system. Does that violate 1a?
Lying in contracts is breach of contract. Necessarily criminalized for trade. Another limitation.
Threats are only criminal because of the assumption that they are true. There is no consideration for lying.
Today we communicate more than any other time in history. There is so much lying that all communication has become white noise. Distrust, suspicion and conspiracy are at an all time high.
The time has come that we must criminalize all lying in communication making the coercion of lying itself not only clearly unprotected by 1a but a crime with serious penalties.
We’ve already successfully done this in court and contracts. Everyone knows they can’t lie there.
Criminalize lying everywhere.
Criminalize lying everywhere... To include lying about the reality of the Holocaust! Heil Miserable Misek!!!
Nazi kook argues against his own interests. Since he spouts his inane, discredited Holocaust denial. The Holocaust long since a proven fact.
Nobody has ever refuted anything that I have said, including every statement I have made that refutes your cherished holocaust fairytale.
I truly enjoy feeding that evidence to you trolls and laughing while you choke, inane to refute it.
Breach of contract isn't criminal, stormfag.
Intentionally breaching a contract is the crime of fraud fuckwit.
Incorrect. Please review the elements of fraud in your state. "Intentionally breaching a contract" will not be among them.
You’re wrong according to this.
“ the law does not specify criminal sanction for breach of contract. Yet, it defines fraud attempted due to mala fide intention right at the time of initiation of contract by a party and suggests legal action for the same. Under Indian Contracts Act 1872 (ICA), this is defined under section 17.”
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-fraudulent-breach-contract-criminal-offense-vipin-tyagi
Here's an actual state law definition of actual fraud:
(1) a representation; (2) the falsity of that representation; (3) the materiality of the representation; (4) the speaker's knowledge of the representation's falsity or ignorance of its truth; (5) the speaker's intent that the representation should be acted upon by the person and in the manner reasonably contemplated; (6) the hearer's ignorance of the representation's falsity; (7) the hearer's reliance upon the truth of the representation; (8) the hearer's right to rely upon the representation; and (9) the hearer's consequent and proximate injury or damages caused by their reliance on the representation.
Morrow v. Bank of Am., N.A., 324 P.3d 1167, 375 Mont. 38 (Mont. 2014)
Intentionally breaching a contract is not an element of fraud.
It seems to me, and apparently the court as per my reference, that logically, intentionally entering and breaching a contract is exactly false representation, aka fraud.
Are you disagreeing with this obvious logic or arguing over semantics?
False representation is lying, fraud and is a crime. While all breach of contract doesn’t constitute fraud, some does.
As per my reference, yours is simply incomplete.
You’ll have to refute my reference to refute my point.
When lying is criminalized, being unable to refute what you deny or prove what you claim will constitute Mens rea.
Can somebody parse that Cato statement in a way that it doesn't sound like they're on the side of censorship and outright criminalizing speech? It's either that, it's cut out of the brief oddly or they're chasing the ACLU for furthest fallen.
https://twitter.com/RebelNewsOnline/status/1616108908115795969?t=yRma_c0RTuqm4bsxlv7yNA&s=19
WATCH: @EzraLevant questions Georgia Governor @BrianKempGA about his rationale for attending the annual gathering of the elite in Davos.
[Video]
It is impossible to harm someone with an electronic or written message. That is the only test that should be considered here. Causing emotional distress should not be illegal if there is no physical threat involved. Assault can only take place in the physical presence of the victim and the assailant, with or without battery. It is impossible to measure emotional harm in the first place. There is a civil tort remedy if someone harms you without doing any physical damage. Getting the criminal system involved is an egregious abuse of power.
Covington high school students, Kyle Rittenhouse et al would like a word.
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INTENT (keyword)... What's the difference between murder and a lethal vehicle accident. Such things should ultimately be decided on a case by case trial where INTENT must be established. I don't care too much for this new wave of Black and White criminal brush which likes to brush over the factor of INTENT.
Very interesting case. The peculiar notion that the 1st Amendment should not limit someone's right to a "safe space" is finally being tested in court.
He's a mild-mannered shop clerk that stands back while his store is being looted, in the name of social justice.
counts like the Banana Cream Pies guy
Disagree. It's funny that that's where you're mind went, but I don't think you're considering a more complete definition of 'counter'. And if you think my disagreeing is a hint or a secret sign that I'm secretly Counterman's alter ego, I'd have to disagree with you there too. I don't live in Colorado.
I’m gonna need an article by Robby signaling it is now ok to accept facts as factual.
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