With Jordan Peterson, Occupational Licensing Becomes a Way To Censor
New mechanisms to threaten liberty are brought to bear on those who need the government's permission to do their jobs.

Occupational licensing is a phony guardian of public safety that hikes prices, protects existing practitioners from competition, and raises barriers to work and mobility.
As if that wasn't bad enough, licensing is now used as a weapon to enforce conformity, with permission to make a living dependent on adherence to the party line. Developments in California and Canada demonstrate that occupational licensing isn't just an economic mistake, but also a danger to free speech.
"Jordan Peterson is no stranger to controversy," the National Post's Tyler Dawson reported last week. "The Canadian psychologist and cultural commentator has waded into any number of battles since he first rose to fame several years ago. But now, his incendiary remarks about climate change, whether or not overweight people are attractive, and gender dysphoria, have landed him in trouble with the Ontario College of Psychologists—the professional body that regulates the behaviour of clinical psychologists."
Specifically, the high-profile psychologist revealed in a series of tweets and a subsequent column for the National Post that the Ontario College of Psychologists wants him to "submit to mandatory social-media communication retraining." His alleged offenses include retweeting comments by the head of the opposition Conservative Party and criticizing Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
For its part, the regulatory body says, "In a decision released on November 22, 2022, the Inquiries, Complaints and Reports Committee decided to require Dr. Jordan Peterson to successfully complete a prescribed Specified Continuing Education or Remedial Program (SCERP). The substance of the SCERP is a Coaching Program to address issues regarding professionalism in public statements."
Peterson seeks judicial review and says he won't comply.
The College of Psychologists' action is creepy in a typically Canadian way, cloaking authoritarianism in the language of concern. But Canada's record on free speech is already spotty; what relevance could this have for the U.S., where upsetting people is protected by the First Amendment?
Funny you should ask.
"A new California law gives the state unprecedented control over what doctors can say to their patients about COVID-19," Reason's Zach Weissmueller noted of the state's A.B. 2098, which went into effect at the start of 2023. Under the law, physicians can be punished for sharing COVID-19 "misinformation" with patients. The law defines "misinformation" as advice "contradicted by contemporary scientific consensus," which is to say, mere disagreement with the powers that be, not explicit fraud.
"Physicians can be, and historically have been, disciplined for committing medical fraud, prescribing medically inappropriate treatment, and failing to provide patients with material information to make informed choices," object the American Civil Liberties Union chapters of Northern California and Southern California in a brief seeking a preliminary injunction against A.B. 2098. "Requiring California to prove such unprofessional conduct before imposing a sanction neither ties officials' hands nor harms patients. Indeed, the State does not explain why existing law has fallen so short as to justify a sweeping censorship law."
Unfortunately, a federal judge refused to block the law on the grounds that the courts generally treat regulation of medicine as applying to conduct rather than speech. It remains in effect while legal challenges proceed.
"It essentially ends your ability to combat bad ideas put out by public health because you have this looming power that over you that essentially can end your career," Stanford University economist and medical school professor Jay Bhattacharya told Weissmueller.
True, treatment of COVID-19 is a specific and peculiarly politicized issue for medicine that will likely fade in importance as we leave the pandemic in the rear-view mirror. But it's unlikely to be the last political hot potato in a profession that's increasingly colored by ideology.
"Doctors say that there is a 'purge' underway in the world of American medicine: question the current orthodoxy and you will be pushed out," Katie Herzog wrote for The Free Press (called Common Sense at the time) in 2021. "They are so worried about the dangers of speaking out about their concerns that they will not let me identify them except by the region of the country where they work."
Medicine isn't the only profession where practitioners face growing ideological pressure.
"The idea that lawyers can't be neutral, that confronting injustice must supersede all else, has eroded the norm that legal representation—like the ability to obtain medical care or buy a train ticket—is something every American deserves," Aaron Silbarium warned in a 2022 companion piece to Herzog's about the politicization of law. "Lawyers at top law firms in New York, Washington, D.C., and Los Angeles said they fret constantly about saying the wrong thing—or taking on the wrong client."
Importantly, both medicine and law are professions in which practitioners require government permission to make a living. If getting that permission involves mouthing official ideas and refraining from offending the powerful, then licensing is a means for enforcing compliance and conformity. Worse, evidence suggests that it's a political gatekeeper that offers little or no real benefits.
"This study finds no evidence that licensing raises quality and some evidence that it can reduce it," Kyle Sweetland and Dick M. Carpenter II wrote in a 2022 Institute for Justice paper on the effects of occupational licensing on the quality of services offered by licensed workers.
"The burden of occupational licensing is stifling entrepreneurship in America," economist Stephen Slivinski found in a 2015 Goldwater Institute study cited by the White House. Across states "the higher the rate of licensure of low-income occupations, the lower the rate of low-income entrepreneurship."
Some argue that Jordan Peterson is a troll who deserves censure, and that quacks who peddle snake oil as the cure for COVID need to be handled. Fair enough; there's always room for disagreement. But politicized licensing would bypass debate and shut down dissent through force of law. Notably, one complaint against Peterson seeks to sanction him for opposing child-abuse investigations of participants in last year's trucker protests. And many of the physicians challenging California's A.B. 2098, like Stanford's Bhattacharya, are prominent dissenters from establishment opinion. Those who don't like what they say are free to debate them but shouldn't be able to punish them for their opinions.
Occupational licensing doesn't offer the benefits its advocates claim, and it raises barriers to those seeking economic opportunity. Unless you're a fan of handing political weapons to regulators who want to muzzle dissent, there's little good to say about making people seek permission to make a living.
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Now THIS kind of shit is something that we should be shitting bricks about! Government Almighty leaning on a few webs sites here and there, in comparison, is just a few farts in a hurricane.
After all, in the USA, we have access to 1.14 billion web sites… Number of web sites today… https://siteefy.com/how-many-websites-are-there/ … I don’t care much about supposed censorshit! We also have phone calls, pamphlets, letters, word of mouth, smoke signals, telegraphs, Morse code, cryptic codes on the back-sides of stop signals, messages on cereal boxes, nano-molecules in your vaccines, tin-foil hats, ESP, clairvoyance, text messages, and… Now I will show my advanced years… EMAILS!!!!
I wish that the whining crybabies would JUST SHUT UP about HOW horribly bad censorshit is today!!! In the USA at least… We have MORE access to MORE lies, every day! We can freely access more lies than you can shake your dick at!
Sqrlsy is handwaving massive government censorship efforts to take journalists, medical professionals and citizens off the world's largest internet platforms, with the biggest reach, because they didn't expel them from the entire internet (yet).
That's like saying the Soviets didn't censor dissent because Soviet dissidents could still get published in the West.
Never let this authoritarian shitposter tell you that he's a libertarian ever again.
I've blocked him because he's basically insane. But he actually claims to be a libertarian?
I had to mute him. Not because of the content of his posts (or lack thereof), just because his screeds were getting so long it took forever to scroll through the damn page.
Same here.
Ditto; Squirrelsy, call your office. No one can read what you post.
It's not my fault that many of you are stupid, or lazy, or ideologically blinded, or ALL of the preceding!
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My first muting and the most deserving by a large margin. Absolutely unreadable copy-paste nonsense.
I've made it my New Year's Resolution to block spam and capypasta-flingers on sight.
It may not get all spammers at once, but it will make the Comments easier to get through.
Kind of a pity. Sqrlsy's report about Vat-Meat in the Bat-Cave was a tickler. If only every post was that good or as good as Agile Cyborg, I would keep him in my wheel-house, but no more.
Marxist Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer wants to kill Section 230, so that Government Almighty can take over moderating privately-owned web sites! THAT is HER flavor of "Perfect Libertarianism"!
What could POSSIBLY go wrong here?
Government Almighty took over moderating privately-owned web sites explicitly using 230, you stupid authoritarian fuck. Who are you trying to fool?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions and 230 was one of them. Of course you know this but you're a wannabe Democratic Party bot. We don't call you Shillsy for nothing.
"Government Almighty took over moderating privately-owned web sites explicitly using 230..."
Just like Government Almighty uses the 1A to tell us all what we may, and may not, say?!?
Your colossally YUUUGE inversions and perversions of the facts know NO limits! Good is evil and evil is good, in Your Perfectly Perverted, twisted so-called "mind"!
So you've got nothing to answer with but rage and bile. Noted.
Good is evil and evil is good, in Your Perfectly Perverted, twisted so-called “mind”! Day is night! Right is wrong, and wrong is right!
Duly noted!
God's commandment that we "shall not commit murder" is what God uses to mind-control us, and FORCE us to commit murder!
According to the "facts" and "logical reasoning" of Marxist Mammary-Necrophilia-Fuhrer, that is!
Odd accusation from the guy who supports late-term abortion, infanticide, euthanasia and the death penalty.
You resent the hell out of the fact that many other people are flat-out, better, more honest people than you are, right? More “live and let live”, and WAAAY less authoritarian?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-love-and-war/201706/why-some-people-resent-do-gooders
From the conclusion to the above…
These findings suggest that we don’t need to downplay personal triumphs to avoid negative social consequences, as long as we make it clear that we don’t look down on others as a result.
SQRLSY back here now… So, I do NOT want you to feel BAD about YOU being an authoritarian asshole, and me NOT being one! PLEASE feel GOOD about you being an evil, lying asshole! You do NOT need to push me (or other REAL lovers of personal liberty) down, so that you can feel better about being an asshole! EVERYONE ADORES you for being that asshole that you are, because, well, because you are YOU! FEEL that self-esteem, now!
ML, not sure i understand your objection to 230. It says that websites are not responsible for content uploaded by others; that makes sense since they didn't write it. And websites ARE responsible for their writings; also makes sense.
Where 230 gets in trouble is that websites are NOT required to designate areas either FREE speech zones or PUBLISHER's zones, and they are not held to making their terms of service public, limited changes to once a year, and held to them like a contract, including allowing users to make class action suits against them.
OK. I guess I've re-written 230.
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Yep! I thought Reason was conspiring against him when the Comments went down last night. But he's back and this crazy place is a better place for it! 🙂
Not since the works of Blanche Knott have I been tied up in such sick laughter! A part of me feels bad doing it but I can't resist! 🙂
"Doctors say that there is a 'purge' underway in the world of American medicine: question the current orthodoxy and you will be pushed out,"
THIS is how you suppress freedom in a "democracy", "republic" or "free" society. No need need to use violence
Reason's woke allies strike again.
Maybe at some point you will put the TDS away and realize the left is currently the bigger threat.
I don't even think it's about Trump personally. As long as Democrats are the pro-importing-cheap-labor party, Koch-funded libertarians will be just another cog in #TheResistance.
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Trust the experts
Canada pushing ideology through certification boards is fine. They aren't using guns. Ask sarc or Mike.
Unbelievable. But truthfully, it is happening here. Example: Physicians and prescribing. Here in the People's Republic of NJ, a physician can lose their license if they prescribe 'too much' - mainly opioids or opioid-like pain medication for chronic pain. It is an arbitrary, evolving bureaucratic standard.
It will spread to other industries, like finance (using ESG as the cudgel to enforce ideology).
California just passed a law removing medical licenses for those who "spread misinformation". It isnt just Canada.
How long before a California surgeon will lose their license for refusing to cut off a young girls breasts?
The situation there is teetering on this, isn’t it. If anything comes up, keep us abreast.
I wish I had your skill with words. Your words are titillating. I am just a boob.
It would be udderly amazing if we milk this some more.
I'm ruminanting about it, but stomachs will turn over it.
This is already happening in multiple states in the US.
Ive got friends in medicine that got warnings from their state medical boards because they weren't following CDC guidance on COVID.
The one guy was literally just not advising everyone get vaxxed (esp healthy young), and he wrote a couple ivermectin scripts for patients that wanted it. He got a "we are aware you are practicing out of step with official guidance" call. They threatened his license.
For comparison, giving a normal script for Ivermectin, even if it would provide no statistical benefit, would be on par with how bronchitis and colds are treated (inapprorpiately, with an unnecessary, no-statistical-benefit antibiotic course)...this happens literally every day in every state.
The gov and medical boards are punishing doctors for wrong-think. Its already been happening, this isnt a Canada problem, this is just more high profile.
They have also made it hard to get a scrip for ivermectin to treat eye worms after a trip to Africa. Doctors are afraid to do their jobs.
That is how powers suppress freedom in a “democracy”, “republic” or “free” society. No need to use violence.
Did you pay Turley for his article?
From what I gather, Jordan Peterson objects to retraining by the Ontario College of Psychologists - what more evidence do you need that he's a dangerous whackjob in dire need of retraining? Anybody who objects to what the state decrees needs to be looked at carefully. He should be grateful he's not judged to be insane and institutionalized and subjected to electro-convulsive therapy. Which I'm sure is coming shortly to Canada as an adjunct to MAID.
Report to room 101.
Peterson is obviously involved in thought crime and bad speak.
Yes, room 101 will set him to rights.
CCP isn't just for China anymore
Will Canada revoke the licenses of all medical staff that pushed a false narrative regarding an ineffective and dangerous “vaccine”?
That is California.
Pffbbt. Just "The information about the misinformation is misinformation." it. Doctors shouldn't be discussing information about misinformation with the patients or even among themselves anyway. Duh.
“100% safe and effective with no downsides!”
Someone dismissing Peterson as a "troll" is not a "fair enough", it is toeing the line of libel. Peterson generally comes with well considered and researched backed arguments for what he says. You can reasonably disagree with him, but he is not saying what he says for shits and giggles as the term "troll" implies.
As I was pointing out the other day, he’s actually rather the opposite of a troll in either sense of the word. He isn’t out there baiting people so he can real them into his boat and he’s not out there guarding any bridges. He is/was largely a no-name professor of no exceptional world-wide notability one way or the other until the trolls dangled the bait of censorship in front of him and/or told him he shall not cross this bridge.
The overwhelming majority of Americans and Canadians didn’t wake up this morning or earlier this week and think, “I wonder what’s going on with Jordan Peterson?” nor did Peterson think “How can I get on the minds of every last American and Canadian today?” The Ontario College of Psychologists did and that’s the only reason anybody is talking about Jordan Peterson at all right now.
He is/was largely a no-name professor of no exceptional world-wide notability
Not true. He had considerable stature in his profession before he hit the news for standing up for our freedom of speech.
-jcr
All you have to do is look at which side is citing proper clinical studies, and which side is citing political propaganda.
The National Post?
Is that bigoted, slack-jawed rag still published?
I suppose disaffected, irrelevant culture war casualties must stick together -- each other is about all they have left in the modern world.
Aww you can't engage with the content in the article, right sport?
Let me guess, you hate fascism but have no problem with what is being done to Peterson.
He only hates it when he isn’t the one doing the fascism.
One shot troll. Happy so long as he can gin up some outrage.
Not familiar with it.
Is it known for laughably inept political analysis, like your humiliating faceplant about Biden expanding the Supreme Court to 13 within 6 months of inauguration?
The National Post is a sort of mildly libertarianish/conservativish national newspaper and alongside the Globe & Mail one of the biggest in the country. The closest American paper in structure and tone (but not content, NP is more conservative) to it would be USA Today.
Kirkland is more a Toronto Star kind of guy.
Even the 'Red' Star would be too right wing for him. Definitely one for "The People's Voice - Voix du peuple".
Another drive-by idiocy from Kirkland. You know you're over the target when this happens.
"You know you’re over the target..."
Sounds like WWII bomber pilots I used to know. They said flack was the worst.
We fucking warned you, we spent the last 7 years warning you. And if you think Peterson is only a 'troll', you still do not understand.
I don't think he is a troll, I just wish he wouldn't cry as much.
No one who communicates through Twitter should be taken seriously.
Same goes for the reason comments section.
So true.
So the medium is the problem, no need to engage with the message? I can grant you should ignore most of Twitter but that would be based off the message, not the medium. This is no better than saying commenters on public comment boards should be ignored (fine advise if you’re engaging with the likes of SQRLSY but that is based on content not medium).
Hell, even hyperbole like "Twitter is cancer" is fine as a warning about the bulk of the comments but sometimes it contains truth.
And the smartest man alive might be the guy screaming on the metro train, but it's so unlikely that it's really not worth your time to find out. Saying there's truth on Twitter is like saying there's drinkable water in a cess pit because there may be an independent molecule of H20 freely floating amid the piss and the shit.
Or like saying internet troll/dragon has reading comprehension.
Guess it's time to stick you with Jeff.
Yeah, except lots of smart and interesting people do post on Twitter. I'm no fan of Twitter or any social media, but your assessment is ridiculous.
Well said.
You hit it on the head. He does like to play the victim a lot. And he needs to stop getting out over his skis on issues. Just because he knows a lot concerning psychology, doesn't make him an economics expert.
In fairness, economics is basically applied psychology with some napkin math.
I certainly wouldn't take economic advice from him, but at the same time he probably knows more about the psychology side of it than people might give him credit for.
Well, I just used economics as an example. He tends to opine on a number of issues where he clearly isn't qualified enough to be opining.
Now granted, many in the punditry class are guilty of this. But I expect it of people like Joy Reid, an intellectual like Peterson should refrain more from doing this than an average talking head.
I can agree with that.
I do think he has more of a scientific mind than plenty of the people who argue with him, and as such he's at least capable of poking holes in many of the obvious fallacies that are put forward as 'science', but this does not make him an expert merely an armchair critic like many of us here.
Agreed.
If people don't stand up and tell these little tyrants, "hell no", the First Amendment will be just a memory.
This has go to be stopped. By what ever means necessary.
"By what ever means necessary."
Does that mean bullet points, or pointed bullets? Because to whatever extent our progressive "betters" can, they will restrict freedoms, especially of any naysayers who do not get with their program.
Im still waiting for all the supposed anti fascists in this country to call out Trudeau for freezing the bank accounts of peaceful protesters.
Imagine the whine fest if Trump did that to BLM protesters.
Hell, I'm waiting for the "libertarians" writing here to call it out with in a way that doesn't try to half justify it.
Peterson is clearly their enemy. I read his book, and advocating for things like being honest and taking responsibility for yourself...well, that is just way beyond their pale.
No mention of Guliani? He was disbarred almost immediately for bringing a legal challenge to the election.
Interestingly, it took over two years to disbar the molotov throwing attorneys in the George Floyd riots.
It's very clear. Being Republican is far worse a crime than terrorism.
Elias still isn't disbarred.
Edit: replied to the wrong post
“It’s very clear. Being Republican is far worse a crime than terrorism.”
Republicans gave us the war on terror. Looks like the cows have come home to roost.
Really though, being a republican is fine as long you’re a pro-establishment neocon. It’s the trump-nationalists that are having the state/war on terror turned against them. But, these 2 groups do not belong in the same party anymore.
You might want to look at that war on terror vote again as well as the numerous continuations, they're not even close to only a Republican thing.
Granted. I didn't mean to imply republicans were solely responsible, just complicit.
I'm not talking about some arbitrary war over there that we can discuss about its merits.
I'm talking about violence where members of the court built bombs and dropped them in police cars for political reasons. Flat-out terrorism using explosives. And they were allowed to keep their licenses until November 2022.
It seems quite simply that broken laws don't apply if they are done for the proper political reasons.
For what Peterson does these days, does he really need to be a psychologist?
Fuck off.
Someone is giving Roberta flack.
at least look him in the face... right?
the first time, anyways
back to back record of the year grammys
It's looking like love to me. 😉
Roberta deserves it, though. In case you missed it, she actually thinks submitting yourself into slavery is a moral and viable alternative to avoiding the horrors of war, even though your slaver could send you off to the horrors of war anyway! She obviously slept through Patrick Henry's speech in history.
Also, she thinks living off Gummint Cheez is somehow part of a Libertarian diet. Yeeech!
Go easy on the lefties here, Dlam. It's not easy pushing for this kind of censorship while still pretending to be libertarian.
He still has clients.
Does he? I thought I had heard him say that he had to stop having patients/clients because his public profile complicated things too much.
He’s not taking new ones (except a couple of celebrities), but he still has a few from when he taught.
Even back then it can’t have been cheap to be the patient of a Harvard Professor.
This isn't about Peterson himself. This is the test run to start doing this to less notable dissenters.
One of the things about this is that transgenderism and what is best to do about it medically is hardly settled science. We have a political movement trying to make it illegal to question the dogma surrounding it from progressives. Peterson is perhaps the most notorious critic of that movement, but this is an attempt to make anything other than “gender affirming care” forbidden and make dissent by medical professionals illegal.
Test run? You don't test out the jackboots on notable dissenters first. You smash the small guys first and then when you step on the big ones you can point and say that you've been doing it that way to everyone.
It's the other way around. You crush the few big fish first to send the message to the masses of little fish that they have no chance of standing up to you.
It’s probably a bit of both, based on what the tyrants think they can get away with at the time.
Sometimes, they go after the big guys, pour encourager les autres.
Sometimes, they go after the little guys, to slowly turn up the temperature of the pot, hoping the frogs won’t notice.
If not, he will. Also, they don't really want him to just come and sleep through or Tweet from the back of a class on Professionalism In Public Statements or whatever. They don't give a shit about the credit hours or whether he pays attention or not. They want him to sign the slip of paper at the end that says he agrees to abide by the principles laid out in the class in his professional communications.
This really isn't even a very complicated game of 2D chess.
Does it matter? If they can shut him out of the profession in such a public and political manner what message does that send to the rest of the profession? How much further into society can they push this? Seriously, did you even engage your brain before popping off there because you're usually better than that.
you’re usually better than that.
LOL
An agency that is statutorily empowered to decide if someone can engage in a clinical practice [based on a practitioners political views] seems to be the point here, not Peterson's financial assets to do otherwise.
"His alleged offenses include retweeting comments by the head of the opposition Conservative Party and criticizing Canada's Prime Minister Justin Trudeau."
This is THE offense. Criticizing the leftist demigod.
Trudeau = Woke Cartman. His authoritay is not to be questioned.
Castreau.
Fidel's illegitimate bastard son.
Unrelated, the Canadian government had procured a large supply of rainbow coloured dildos included in an aid package to Ukraine. They haven’t been shipped yet; it turns out that Trudeau has just been sitting on them.
That's probably not even a joke. I can totally see the Trudeau Liberals doing that.
Well, the Ukrainians don't need used dildos to jeopardize their lives and health when Putin is doing the same by destroying their utilities and cities.
Welcome to 1930's Italy.
Occupational licensing is a phony guardian of public safety that hikes prices, protects existing practitioners from competition, and raises barriers to work and mobility.
Not entirely true. It is for hair cutting, hair braiding, and things like that. However, it is not a phony guardian for architecture, engineering, and the medical fields. I’ll speak for engineering and why licensure exists. And why you wouldn’t trust an unlicensed engineer.
Over a century ago, we used to let just anyone build near anything. There was no license requirement for engineering. We had some great structures like the Brooklyn Bridge, but we also had a lot of deadly failures like the South Fork Dam (Johnstown Flood), Quebec Bridge disaster (two collapses while under construction), and even the St Francis Dam collapse. The results from these was a license to perform engineering, a guarantee that the person signing off on the work was a competent person who has the required knowledge and experience to review the work. I’ll even go through the requirements for the license: – 4 year ABET accredited program plus 4 years working under a PE, or – 8 years working under a PE. – Pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam and the Principals and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam with a 70% or better score. The fees vary by state, but your employer is usually going to be the one to pay for it.
Granted, engineering disasters still happen; however, really big ones seem to have been minimized. Would you want just anyone to build a dam above a large town like Johnstown?
What is being done to Dr. Peterson and the law in California restricting speech is an abuse of licensure, and not what it was intended for in those fields. It is an abomination and beyond the pale. Tuccille needs to learn the difference between licenses for different types of work, why some came into being, and what's being done to folks like Peterson.
In Tuccille's defense, (because at one point, way back when, he was one of the more right or right-center libertarian writers in a sea of civil libertarians here at Reason) this magazine has covered, in the past, how engineering licensure has been abused similarly.
Sure, you should absolutely have a licensed engineer build your local dam the way a licensed doctor should perform your heart surgery, but do you really need a licensed engineer/architect for remodeling a home or garage or a licensed surgeon to sanitize and bandage or CA glue a superficial laceration? Especially in the age of Internet/YouTube?
You should probably get a licensed architect for your remodel.
Really? Tearing up the tile, getting rid of the built in vanity, removing the wallpaper, re-lining the tub, and changing the toilet requires an architect? Doing the same type of remodel in the kitchen? Because in plenty of places, and I’m not talking historical districts, that’s pretty much where we’re at, dumbass.
Yes, if you’re thinking about doing things like removing walls or adding floors or ceilings/roofs above or below you should probably, even almost certainly, consult a professional.
No, Yes, No, No, Yes. Depending on your jurisdiction.
I'm not saying you SHOULD have to. Don't blame me when the local inspector sees construction waste in the alley dumpster out back and slaps you with a STOP WORK order, though.
Many years ago I owned a small commercial building in a small village in Illinois. I had an opportunity to lease it to a chiropractor. It was a pole barn building on a concrete slab foundation with an office and bathroom but mostly open space. He needed several exam rooms. No big deal. Partition walls and electric. Three rooms and a hallway if memory serves me. No structural work or plumbing. Being the solid citizen that I am, I called the local building authorities and told them what my intentions were. He told me I'd have to submit a drawing of the proposed remodel. I dug out some grid paper, a t-square and a triangle and some mechanical pencils and created my masterpiece. Dropped off the drawings and awaited the verdict. Guy calls me up and tells me he had to have drawings by a licensed architect because it was zoned commercial. OK. So I called an architect. He told me he'd need 5 grand to look at my proposal and then he could give me a price on the drawings. We had figured our total cost to do the job at about half of that so my cost would have tripled. Just to get a quote. I decided that it was my property and I wasn't going to let these grifters rob me. We began construction, unloaded the drywall after dark but otherwise just went to work. The doc moved in and I eventually sold it to him. That was 20 years ago and I've never heard a complaint. Fuck this bullshit. The government doesn't own my property. I do. I've remodeled my houses many times. Put an addition on my current residence. I've never gotten a permit and never had an inspection. And I never will.
I have never charged for a proposal. $5k seems a bit steep for a small tenant finish like that, even nowadays.
Might be why we do a lot of work in Illinois.
He told me he’d need 5 grand to look at my proposal and then he could give me a price on the drawings.
That was the time to call a different architect because that guy was looking to rip you off.
That was the time to call a different architect because that guy was looking to rip you off.
Not exactly or entirely. If everybody thinks a built-in vanity requires an architectural drawing to (re)move, all the architects in the tri-state area can just price themselves out of such meaningless work.
No, Yes, No, No, Yes.
No, No, No, No, No. Your architectural firm do a lot of work designing structural vanities, sinks, and toilets?
I can deal with a sink/toilet/vanity or a local inspector. This hypothetical rodeo wouldn't be near my first. What I can't deal with is everybody from the nosy neighbor to the inspector to the village to the local engineers and architects thinking I need a notarized drawing in order to remove/replace a vanity.
Might be why we do a lot of work in Illinois.
Yeah, no shit.
Yeah, you should consult a professional (if you don't know what you are doing). But most people you are going to hire to knock down a wall or build a small addition aren't going to be "professional engineers" and in many cases will have no degree beyond high school. At least where I live there is no mandatory licensing for carpenters or general contractors. And it doesn't seem to be a problem. People work on their reputation.
It depends on the remodel. Are you changing a cosmetic part such as tile, paint, or trim? Then no, you don't. Are you moving a wall or raising the ceiling? Then yes, you really should.
Any electrical or plumbing should also be done by someone with a license. Those mistakes can be very costly and even deadly.
Imagine if 50 or even 25 yr. old code is today's costly and even deadly mistakes. I'd think, as libertarians, we could say that 'costly' is the homeowner's call.
Pretty much the rule of thumb I laid out.
When making structural changes, I want a qualified engineer involved. I don't give a rat's ass whether the government thinks he's qualified.
-jcr
But it's a difference between existence vs abuse. If beautician standards were a written test and 100 hours paid work (so doable in a month) it would be fine to make sure they know what they're doing but they're generally closer to 1000+ hours and outrageous fees and renewals that mean nothing to anyone but the grifters.
Well now licensed engineers can not partake of the woke world at peril to their jobs! Now engineering and architectural boards are ‘encouraging’ professionals to not accept ANSI standards to recognize that other countries perspectives are valid as well. Concrete PSI standards? Why stick with that old fuddy duddy standard? Let’s go wit Haiti concrete standards! Yay! And I am sure that companies will never cut corners when nobody knows what standard to go with, right?
So don’t worry, licensed engineers will also be able to be silen…compatriots in the future woke experiments!
So I recall from Cutting Back City Hall by Robert W. Poole, even Socialist France in the Eighties did not have government control and licensure of construction.
Over there, private insurance companies had experts inspect your building to see if it was worthy of insuring and if so, you got insured, and if not, you took your own risk and you were still liable for any torts to others.
I don't if that is how it's still done, but France has structures build of plaster-dipped straw bales that have stood for centuries. They do have The Eiffel Tower and they did build our Statue of Liberty.
Wouldn't this be a solution to competent construction that is more cromulent with Libertarian Free-Market Capitalism?
This is exactly the right way to do it. The people who have to pay up if the building collapses are the people who should perform the due diligence to determine its safety.
-jcr
Comparing the effectiveness of licensing of doctors and lawyers to lower compensated professions is ridiculous.
A hair braider is highly unlikely cause severe consequences to their customers.
Less of an entanglement for sure.
Don’t get into a twist about it.
I’m knot going to get into nit-picking on this.
OK, licensing is bad, an affront to libertarian sensibilities, and prone to ideological capture.
Got anything else to help people choose doctors, pilots, or structural engineers?
Looks.
References. If you want a Fauci or Mengele as your family doctor, I won’t try to stop you.
The passengers of Germanwings flight 9525 and Malaysia Airlines flight 370 are not available for comment regarding pilot licensing.
Also, testicles. At some point the rate of return on risk evasion is going to fall below or well below the risk of regulatory capture. People are gonna die either way, deal with it.
The free-market has always sprouted standards organizations where they’ve been needed.
Meeting quality standards doesn't require a Gun. (Gov-Guns). Wrong tool for the job.
Race, sex, gender, political point of view, religion. You know, just like we pick government workers. (see Supreme Court justices, White House spokespersons, etc.)
If you are getting climate change information from Jordan Peterson , you are an idiot and deserve punishment. I don't take climate change info from a psychologist , nor from my plumber, dentist, or dog walker.
I believe that is beside the point. The fact that a professional licensing board [a statutorily empowered arm of the government] can threaten anyone and jeopardize their livelihood for having an opinion or an attitude they do not like, is.
Licensing is a market tool to give some level of confidence that the person spouting off has at least a bare minimum of recognizable skill or knowledge at the thing they have a license in. Do you have to have a license for people to pay attention to what you say ? No, just ask Marie Kondo, the Sham-wow guy, or most talking heads on TV.
Anybody with a license should have the chops to scientifically present, debate, and defend their findings / point of view / whatever in an open forum of their peers. You know, like science used to do.
"If you are getting climate change information from Jordan Peterson , you are an idiot and deserve punishment.
If you are letting the Ontario College of Psychologists determine what is accurate climate change information and punish dissenters accordingly, you are an idiot and deserve punishment.
If licensing were private and voluntary, it would be a market force. Plenty of people are able to pass the governments test who have no business working in that licensed profession or capacity.
A license is government permission to engage in some activity. Certification is a private endorsement of one's qualifications.
-jcr
Licensing is a market tool
NO IT'S NOT.
Licensing is a GOVERNMENT interference in the market, used to limit competition.
-jcr
Humans have been here for .004% of Earth's history. More data is needed.
Better to take your information from "experts" that have been consistently wrong in exactly the same way for 40 years in order to push the same collectivist solution?
Kindly fuck off Stalinist-Belle.
Co-signed.
Peterson's commentary on climate change is more about the best way to deal with it and not so much about the facts of the matter.
One of his main points is that if you really care about human prosperity and well being, the best thing to do is to make energy less expensive and more available. Which I think is a very good point. And pretty much the opposite of mainstream climate policy.
Yet, if you believe in democracy in any form as a legitimate way of government, then those people have, rightly, just as much say in making the decisions about what to do about climate change as anyone else.
Who should I trust to give climate change information when it's a bunch of people who declared themselves to be experts in a 'new' science with a proven track record of being abjectly wrong.
I agree that taking advice from a psychologist on matters of climatology is probably a fools errand, but he at least has some semblance of logic which is more than I can say for the self-declared 'experts' of climate change who have, to date, been wrong 100% of the time.
Jordan could probably do better by simply guessing since a guess without bias is probably better than experts who have clear and obvious bias.
Would you get heart surgery from guy who just guessed or would you go to a cardiologist who is biased towards your chest pains likely being a heart attack ? (hint: Neither is a good answer without evidence; but who you going to ? )
Would you get heart surgery from guy who just guessed or would you go to a cardiologist who is biased towards your chest pains likely being a heart attack ?
Your question is really more along the lines of "are you going to take advice on astrology from some random guy on the street, or from a trained astrologer?"
I'm going to trust the trained astrologer to tell me more about astrology than the random guy on the street, but I'm not re-tooling my life based on the advice of either one.
But you will take climate change directives from a teenager (Thunberg) or an ex-bartender (AOC)? What are their qualifications for having public input into climate policy?
None, which is why I don't listen to teenagers or ex-bartenders, either.
Again, you are getting climate change advice from Thunberg, whether you know it or not. Where do you think your political leaders are getting it from?
I don’t listen to teenagers or ex-bartenders, either.
The people who are going to be making the decisions for you do.
The people who are going to be making the decisions for you do.
Actually now that Greta has discovered nuclear power and gotten more wise to the 'greenwashing' effect, our wise and benevolent leaders no longer seem to have much use for her.
Appeals to authority are why human progress is slow. Time and again, supposedly "unqualified" people have been correct well in advance of society. This is because it is uncomfortable to accept that the things you can control (studying, learning, cooperation) do not guarantee correct results and that an imbecile can stumble upon the correct answer by chance.
This is why online anonymity is so important. Anonymity forces you to put earthly biases behind you and focus on the content of the speaker and not the speaker themselves. Shame that JBP doesn't understand this today.
It's important to realize that even Einstein was considered a crank until people actually dug into his math.
This is important. The people who thought he was a crank did so without digging into the math. That is the problem. Dig into the math, and science will deliver and answer. Everybody does crank-labeling without doing the digging part.
It’s important to realize that even Einstein was considered a crank until people actually dug into his math.
Same with Newton.
I don’t take climate change info from a psychologist , nor from my plumber, dentist, or dog walker.
You probably do and don't realize it.
And by the way, I've probably heard 100s of hours of Jordan Peterson's talks, interviews etc. I'm not sure I've ever once heard him give climate change advice. He has, on the other hand, described why people are skeptical of it in one of the best simplified breakdowns I've ever heard.
Hint: Because most of the climate change advice you're getting is coming from plumbers, dentists and dog walkers-- or at minimum, people barely qualified to be any of the above.
Peterson is not the only source of information on climate change. I don't think he claims to be an expert on the subject. He has opinions about a lot of things that he shares with his audience that they can consider, agree with, or reject. He may be wrong about a lot of things but he is obviously a very bright and articulate person. You on the other hand are an idiot.
Although rare, there are certainly psychologists who either take a deep dive into a subject like climate change, or talk to several people who have (and who may even say "I'm a climate scientist, and this is my belief -- but don't tell anyone I told you this, because I don't want to lose my job!") and reach conclusions that may or may not be wrong.
There's a reason why we allow even the seemingly ignorant to speak on the subjects they wish to talk on!
And I would trust a psychologist a tad more (but not much more) than I would an actor on any given issue (which, granted, isn't much).
If scientists are forced to go along with the consensus, is it still a consensus?
Paging Trofim Lysenko.
Depends on how much you pay the ideologically-motivated experts at Merriam-Webster.
"If scientists are forced to go along with the consensus, is it still science?"
FTFY
They did it to Galileo.
They did it to the crew of Space Shuttle Challenger.
When those Thiokol engineers said a cold temp launch was bad, managers wanting to avoid a delay must have blown a gasket.
Oh, no. It never happened that way. It was one big Black Legend. Just ask Mother's Lament and the other TradCath shills here. 🙂
Aye, there is the rub.
Fauci determines the consensus. He is The Science.
Appropriate for this thread.
Just listen to the opener, it'll make you queasy.
"Oh fucking hell, they are sterilizing gay kids"
^
Thanks for that; will check out her book.
I predicted yesterday that Reason would not cover this story. I was wrong. Overall good coverage here and my thanks and apologies to the author.
In the past they excommunicated anyone for saying the earth revolved around the sun.
Today's inquisitions are just as dangerous: The kangaroo trial of Alex Jones, journalists exposing others to violent mobs via doxxing, colleges and universities filled with crazed, vapid liberals espousing trans orthodoxy. In California, doctors had better regurgitate the orthodoxy of the Branch Covidians or else. Now Dr. Peterson is having to butt up against the high priests of climate change and trans orthodoxy who only want to save his life, bless them. Otherwise, they will take away his right to earn a living.
We've taken care of everything
The words you read, the songs you sing
The pictures that give pleasure to your eyes
It's one for all and all for one
We work together, common sons
Never need to wonder how or why
Never thought of a RUSH song as a horror novel, but now…
Never thought of a RUSH song as a horror novel
Red Barchetta sounds just like like the future of ICE automobiles.
I've listeneded to Rush since I was 15.
I've listened to 2112 and all of it's profound lyrics and I've seen the graphic novel.
Jordan Peterson is no "Man In The Star."
Without bloodshed none of this is going away, it is firmly entrenched and normalcy is not going to be achieved at the ballot box.
Too many of our fellow citizens are willing to be subjects, so long as they get free shit and the government can stick it to those they do not like or agree with. If it hasn't reached the Rubicon we are damned close to the banks.
After Peterson is reprogrammed he'll say "How Dare You?!?!" with the best of them.
If all he consumes is beef and booze, small wonder that he'll be easy to reprogram.
The only lesson he has for young, alienated men is: "Don't Be This Guy!"
To be accurate here, Peterson did not oppose investigating child abuse complaints. He opposed the suggestion by police that they should, without any investigation, seize all the children of protestors at the Trucker Freedom Convoy. Bit of a difference there.
This article missed one important aspect of this issue. Once someone has lost their license in whatever field they can then be punished for speaking in anything related to their capacity as a licensed professional.
We've seen examples of this before, like the engineer and the traffic lights. He had the appropriate education but was not a licensed engineer in this country so was attacked on the grounds that he was not allowed to speak as an engineer. We see it with amateur nutritionist and the like as well. No license, no speech.
Even though Peterson retains his education and experience revoking his license could be used to further curtail his speech on the basis that he is no longer a licensed professional and therefore not allowed to speak in that capacity, directly or through inference.
If he's engaged in malpractice, sue him for that, but don't make this jerk a martyr.
Judging from his picture, you should never let him in the kitchen trying to sell you on his Beef-And-Booze Diet.
Peterson does more good for the mental health of millions of people every day than all of the lefturds in Canada put together could do in a thousand sniveling lifetimes. Fighting and exposing the Ontario College of Psychologists' snotty little witch hunt is just one of his good works. If you don't like what he has to say, nobody's got a gun to your head to make you listen to him or read his books.
-jcr
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