Michigan Court Allows Town To Use Drones To Snoop Without Warrants. One Couple Is Suing.
The Institute for Justice argues evidence from warrantless searches can’t be used for zoning enforcement.

Can the government use drones to snoop on your property for zoning violations without having to get a warrant first? Right now it appears it can in Michigan, but a Long Lake Township couple is fighting back, with the help of lawyers from the Institute for Justice.
Todd and Heather Maxon have been fighting the zoning enforcement office of Long Lake Township for more than a decade over the couple storing several vehicles on their property. The township accused them of storing "junk" and brought a code enforcement suit against them in 2007. The Maxons fought back, and the township eventually agreed to drop the case as part of a settlement as long as the status quo was maintained.
But according to court documents from the State of Michigan Court of Appeals, neighbors complained that the Maxons had expanded the number of vehicles they were storing on the property. Long Lake Township investigated again. The township was unable to determine any zoning violations from the ground, so they hired a drone company multiple times between 2010 and 2018 to surveil the Maxons' property, flying overhead and taking photographs.
Eventually, Long Lake Township determined that the Maxons had expanded the number of stored vehicles on the property and filed civil suit against the couple to attempt to force them to come into compliance.
But the township never got a warrant for this surveillance, and so the Maxons turned to the courts to suppress the photo evidence as a violation of their Fourth Amendment rights. Initially, Michigan's Court of Appeal agreed with the Maxons that Long Lake Township had violated the couple's rights and suppressed the evidence. But then the state's Supreme Court vacated the decision and kicked it back down to the Court of Appeals to determine whether the exclusionary rule (which prevents evidence collected illegally from being used in a trial) actually applied in this case.
That's when the Maxons' argument ran aground, at least for now. The Appeals Court ruled in September that because this was a civil lawsuit, the exclusionary rule did not necessarily apply. The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly rejected the use of the exclusionary rule in civil cases. Chief Judge Elizabeth Gleicher wrote in the ruling, "The United States Supreme Court has explained that the purpose of the exclusionary rule is twofold: to deter police misconduct, and to provide a remedy where no other remedy is available. When analyzed under the federal or the Michigan Constitution, suppression of the drone evidence does not serve these goals." And so, the evidence can be used in a civil proceeding.
Note that this ruling doesn't indicate that the Maxons' Fourth Amendment rights weren't violated. Indeed, Gleicher writes that the court is operating on the assumption that the violation occurred. But, remarkably, the court believes that a violation of a constitutional right is not nearly as important as enforcing zoning rules, and so the illegally acquired evidence may be used. "Enforcement of the township's zoning ordinance in this situation may depend on the use of drone evidence. And even assuming some marginal deterrent value impacting township officials, the benefit of suppression of the evidence is vastly outweighed by the public's interest in enforcement of zoning regulations," Gleicher writes.
The Institute for Justice is now appealing that ruling to the Michigan Supreme Court to determine whether the Fourth Amendment's protections and the exclusionary rule require the suppression of this evidence. Its appeal to the state Supreme Court notes:
The Court of Appeals' majority opinion would let government officials conduct warrantless drone surveillance with impunity—even though that surveillance violates the Fourth Amendment. Worse, its decision creates a bright line rule: the exclusionary rule simply does not apply when the offending officers violate your Fourth Amendment rights in the course of looking for civil rather than criminal violations. That line in the sand is unsupported by caselaw and, in effect, would leave little incentive for a vast array of government officials from committing even blatant constitutional violations.
"If the government wants to conduct intrusive surveillance like this, the Fourth Amendment requires that it get a warrant," Institute for Justice Attorney Mike Greenberg said in a prepared statement. "The zoning authority's failure to even try to get one shows their indifference to Michiganders' constitutional rights."
It does seem like a troubling outcome. The purpose of the exclusionary rule is to discourage the government from collecting evidence illegally for the purpose of punishing people. If the courts decide that cities can use illegally collected evidence because it's a civil case and not a criminal case, that just blindly ignores that when the government files civil cases against citizens, it's frequently looking to punish them with fines. That should trigger the same Fourth Amendment concerns from the courts as criminal fines or penalties.
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Kemp on hot mic - Contraception ban possible after midterms.
https://www.redandblack.com/athensnews/leaked-gov-kemp-audio-raises-concerns-about-future-of-contraceptive-access/article_7c32dcbe-422a-11ed-af77-53c37a5ef81c.html
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Just a couple of days after South Carolina’s governor said he would support a ban on gay marriage:
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/sc-governor-says-marriage-man-woman-debate-rcna54393
I'm just going to paste the first part of the article that describes the event at hand:
On Sept. 10, Gov. Brian Kemp attended a Georgia-Samford tailgate hosted by the University of Georgia College Republicans where he was recorded speaking about the logistics of potentially banning Plan B, an emergency contraceptive pill, in the state of Georgia.
The audio was leaked on Twitter five days later, resulting in Kemp trending nationally and thousands of people reacting to his comments. Now, questions and concerns have been raised about the future of contraceptives in Georgia.
In the audio between Kemp and an unidentified individual, the governor was asked about potentially banning Plan B since the U.S. Supreme Court overturned the constitutional right to abortion on June 24, leaving the decision up to the individual states. The right had been established since the ruling of Roe v. Wade on Jan. 22, 1973.
“You can take up pretty much everything,” Kemp said about potentially banning the pill in the audio. “You got to be in a legislative session to do that, and that’s not until January … just depends on where the legislators are.”
This conversation follows various challenges to women’s healthcare, including Georgia’s Heartbeat Bill that Kemp signed in 2019 and was put into affect on July 20. The bill bans abortions once a heartbeat is detected, which can be as early as six weeks.
Kemp’s reply to the student did not state whether or not he was in support of banning contraception, however with Election Day approaching, some Democratic lawmakers are urging voters to keep Kemp’s response in mind when heading to the polls.
A ban on Plan B isn’t a “contraception ban”.
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Yes it is. Plan B, and similar medications, doesn’t induce a miscarriage; it prevents implantation of a fertilized egg, the same as an (IUD) intrauterine device.
It is not designed as an abortifacient — which is used early in a pregnancy — but as a post-coital contraceptive.
It’s intentionally misleading. Nobody is banning condoms, IUDs, or the pill. There’s no discussion of such things happening. But people are playing the bait and switch game and pretending they’re being honest by jerking about semantic points.
At worst, some republicans want to ban A SINGLE FORM of birth control.
I doubt there will be any significant legislative will to ban this. I’ve never heard of a significant drive to do so.
A "contraception ban" would ban all contraception.
Banning "Plan B" is not a "contraception ban", regardless of whether you consider it contraception or not, since there are many other forms of contraception that are not Plan B.
the fertilised egg is simplban earlier stage of the same thing.. it IS a human child. No chance it can ever become a kitten, goldfish, lion, flea.......
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Skeet!
Zoning violations that need to be sought out must not be very harmful to others, because nobody knew it was there.
Robots and algorithms knew it was there. No legal issue to be questioned. Unless it produces systemic racism.
I see that you're being sarcastic here, but humor works better when its relevant?
So, if they hired a PI to climb over the back fence several times between 2010 and 2018 do you think the court would be cool with it? What about if they flew a drones over poor/low income neighborhoods looking for violations?
The fact that they flew over ‘several’ times between 2010 and 2018 means they were looking for a pattern of behavior, an algorithm, and, despite a long-standing tradition of legal systems being blind to algorithms and only regarding states or data structures (If cars.count() >= 8), some algorithms are more equal than others.
Edit: And who said I was being humorous?
So what if they flew a plane over and took pictures?
Depends on the purpose of the plane.
General surveys are fine (like looking for fire hazards, map making, etc.), but if you’re photographing a particular area or person’s property, then you’re surveilling. You’re supposed to get a warrant.
if the result of this legal proceeding by the gummit poohbahs will or could result in those targetted having to pay a fine or suffer other harm, then the event IS a criminal event... and thus any evidence obtained without a warrant is not admissible.
Besides, WHAT HARM was done by soe CARS in their yard? Musta been well seculded, as the city poohbahs were unable to determine whether any violations existed until they hired the drone boys.
This whole thing is a nunch of petty ninsense being promoted on taspayer's nickels, to demonise a citizen. City poohbahs need to get a life and stop wasting public money. Someone has taken up a vendetta, forcing their employers (the city residents) to fund it.
In some fairness, while I think it was a violation of their rights in this case, the neighbors did indeed notice and apparently are the one's that made the complaint in the first place.
Never underestimate a neighbors ability to be an asshole, but either way it wouldn't have been difficult for the city to get a warrant for this in all probability.
Also, since Civil Asset Forfeiture is a thing maybe their real fear is that someone might notice the far more egregious violations of constitutional rights when they notice this smaller violation of the same.
To everyone who even humorously suggested shooting down or attacking the drone over their property…
FAA has declared that drones are aircraft and interfering with them is a serious violation of federal law.
So don’t launch your anti-drone and attack the voyeur drone
Please don’t shoot off your shotgun in the city limits
Does the FAA get to make laws now?
>>Can the government use drones to snoop on your property for zoning violations without having to get a warrant first?
absolutely! be wary of shotgun blasts though
Indeed.
https://imgflip.com/tag/parks+and+recreation?sort=latest&after=4igr04
I remember a similar case several years ago. It was a criminal case. The police used a plane to fly over a suspected marijuana grower. The plane detected heat from the plants through the building's outer shell They did not have a search warrant, and the thermal evidence was therefore thrown out. Different in some ways from this, yet similar in other ways.
Personally, I do not like the government surveilling the citizens whether for zoning or all of our data and phone records (Clapper).
They can use a plane without a warrant.
No.
The use of a plane must be for general enforcement, surveying a region.
Once it’s to specifically snoop on a particular owner or property, it’s a search which ordinarily requires a warrant.
I note that the the Institute for Justice referred to "intrusive surveillance" as being unacceptable for 4th Amendment purposes. This criteria would, I believe, obviously rule out flying drones at low altitude over someone's property to see what's going on there. But, it's legal to sit out on the street and see things visible from a public vantage point, so what if the drone was flown around the person's property, never over it, but at sufficient height that you could see what's happening on the property? How is that different from sitting out on the street on top of a truck? Or, what if a survey aircraft flew over the whole end of town taking pictures from a mile up? Is it intrusive if the town purchases commercial satellite photography of the area over time, and looks at the lot and the entire surrounding area "from space".
Is it buckshot or birdshot for a drone ?
Asking for a friend.
Skeet load.
Any means necessary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90TrnpsJiTE
Fair play. There were no utensils in medieval times! Smile for the HD Drone Camera footage!
They're roleplaying as medieval soldiers, I can very well imagine that's how a soldier of that era would react.
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I'd normally be against it, but if they all look as cool as that guy in the photo then I'm in.
That's just the salesman. The government agents will be karens like Whitler.
To me, the core issue is not that the exclusionary rule doesn't apply to civil cases. The real problem is the fiction that zoning enforcement is "merely" a civil suit. If a case is brought by the government, it will be pursued and enforced up to and including by men with guns. The full protections of the law must apply.
Civil suits are for cases between two non-governmental agencies. Maybe also for when the government is the defendant. When government is the plaintiff, they should be held to the same legal standards as if they were a prosecutor - because ultimately, they are.
Totally agree, if the end point of the zoning enforcement is jail, not asset forfeiture.
But if it’s the taking of property… eh, the courts haven’t been consistent on that. Might just be civil.
Zoning enforcement is the most important function of government. If the Constitution gets in the way of that, then we must amend the Constitution.
So why not used the time-tested method of relying on snitching neighbors? If no one is offended by your yard, why does the city council take it upon themselves to spy on you?
That's when the Maxons' argument ran aground, at least for now. The Appeals Court ruled in September that because this was a civil lawsuit, the exclusionary rule did not necessarily apply.
I was rightfully corrected in a Reason thread that questioning a litigants right to remain silent suggesting culpability was NOT a constitutional violation in a civil case. That litigant was Trump.
If a microphone drops and Trump isn't involved, does it make a sound?
This really points to the absurdity of US law considering civil and criminal cases as separate.
At the endpoint of any civil case, armed government agents might use force to remove your property from your possession. There’s really nothing about that which is less deserving of rights and protections than a criminal case.
"The zoning authority's failure to even try to get one shows their indifference to Michiganders' constitutional rights."
Now imagine how Michiganders' constitutional rights might be treated during a *checks list of far-fetched possibilities* a pandemic.
Im not understanding this...
So, if im not mistaken, if the police can see through your car window and see you are blatantly committing a crime, like drinking a beer, then the Supreme Court has already ruled that it's not a violation of your 4th if they pull you over, right?
Likewise, if a cop can see inside your open window and sees you dismembering a body, he doesn't need a warrant to initiate a search.
So what my point is is that, unless im mistaken, the cop isnt violating your 4th rights if you are blatantly comitting a crime in plain view through a window. . So im just wondering what the distinction is if you are committing a crime or a civil violation from plain view of a drone or airplane...
Whether or not i agree w/ government doing this is immaterial. I simply dont understand the distinction
It’s a good question which is probably best answered by good lawyers without an axe to grind and who have a lot of background on things like “reasonable expectations of privacy”.
As a libertarian, I don’t like the government using drone technology to see if I built a deck or gazebo in my backyard to nail me with permit/land use violations. There are precedents that have been set regarding “reasonable expectations” in the privacy realm, and my guess is, depending on where and how the vehicles were stored might come into play. If the vehicles were in a visible area, and the drone is just used to facilitate identification of violations at speed and volume, over a wide area making the process more efficient, then it might be valid. But if the drone is peering into places where the resident has a “reasonable expectation of privacy”, it seems like the kind of thing a court would strike down.
Wow lol nice response, i actually enjoyed reading this
As a libertarian, I don’t like the FAA arbitrarily extending navigable airspace down to my coffee table, yet it does. As a libertarian, I don’t like zoning rules to be decided by political processes instead of only property owners, yet that’s what happens.
Your backyard is visible from planes and satellites, so it is hard to argue that you have had a complete expectation of privacy since the establishment of the FAA. Drones fly lower and are cheaper, but that distinction doesn’t seem relevant to code enforcement.
I also think it is dangerous to deal with issues like code enforcement or privacy based on technicalities or legal trickery. Code says that you shouldn’t have more than X cars in your backyard, and FAA regulations say that the navigable airspace above your property is accessible to the public. Both of those are questionable rules, but let’s not compound the problem by having courts carve out exceptions and make the law even more inconsistent. Instead, either changing zoning to say what you mean (“a maximum of 3 cars visible from the road”) or change navigable airspace rules at least with respect to privacy.
Not an attorney, but I'll give my 2 cents. SCOTUS ruled a few years back that GPS tracking a suspect car without a warrant went to far. You can follow them all you want but you can't put a device on the car.
This seems close to that but I don't have a clue to air space laws which I'd think would play into. You own the car, but how much of the air you own above your house, Ive no idea
They may also run into the open field exemption to the 4th.
I hope the Maxons succeed, though.
The ‘plain sight’ issue with a vehicle is that the vehicle is a slice of private property that happens to be travelling in public area’s. The cops can't barge into your garage with the door closed just because your car is inside of it.
Contrast that with a fully private area that also happens to be…in a private area.
This is why people build fences. It’s just not just to keep nosy neighbors from watching you have sex with your significant other, it’s also to keep the tax assessors from driving past your property and deciding it looks like you improved this or that and arbitrarily raising your tax rate.
Also consider that, last I checked, you can’t just build a fence above your property to block drone’s from taking pictures. If the governments right to have access to your property at all times is above your right to privacy, there goes privacy as a concept.
Eehhhh yeah i guess but. See, my example of police seeing you dismembering a body through an open window of your house --- just because you're doing it inside your house (a constitutionally protected property/area) you are violating the statute in plain sight which gives the police a right to search? I am still not understanding how aerial views are a violation of the 4th
Maybe you’ll see the problem when a drone hover’s over your house for a solid month recording everything you do on the property in search of a violation?
You pass over the imminent and potentially stoppable nature of a cop who happens to wander by while you're murdering someone in front of an open window and compare with endless and uninterrupted surveillance of your private property that is otherwise unviewable from the street. Hope you don't enjoy nude sunbathing.
What if the drone stays over the neighbors property. It's completely legal for me to put up a tall pole with a camera on it that looks into your property.
Are you planning on using the camera footage for legal proceedings?
Because depending on the state that could be illegal, but not because of warrant requirements that notably only apply to the state.
“Drone hovering for a month” is a red herring. The city can observe your backyard from planes or satellites, and that is clearly navigable, public airspace.
If you don’t want aerial photography be used for detecting code violations, then code needs to be changed accordingly.
If you don’t want drones to be able to fly over people’s property at low altitudes, then FAA regulations and the law need to be changed accordingly.
Trying to construct some complex argument why this specific use of drones constitutes an “unreasonable search” is not addressing the issue, won’t protect anybody’s privacy, and just unnecessarily complicates the legal situation for no benefit.
Someone answered this elsewhere. If it is a general search, it is fine. But not if the plane criss crosses your property for awhile looking for something to use against you. Or, just hovering in a helicopter above your house, or even, maybe, your neighbor’s house.
Anybody who tells you that this is legally settled is lying to you.
Furthermore, we aren’t talking about “hovering”, we are talking about simple aerial or satellite photography. Like it or not, government photographs your backyard from the air regularly anyway.
In any case, my basic point is: issues like this need to be resolve legislatively, not on an ad how basis as part of some lawsuit.
People do have a reasonable expectation of privacy.
When some clown flew a drone over the backyard where two young girls were sun bathing, the father blew the drone out of the sky. Two young men thought they could challenge him physically until the angry father pulled out his gun.
If you have to hire someone to fly a drone to see it, it's not in "plain view".
Also, while drones are relatively new under the sun, we’ve had aircraft for a LONG time. There is no precedent ruling on an airplane or helicopter being used to see what’s going on on someone’s property?
It should be noted that I believe a LOT of municipalities use Google Satellite view to nick people for adding things like breakfast nooks and what not to the back of their houses.
I'll do some googling.
Oh, yes, of course, satellites, too.
I don't like it... in fact, I don't like it at all. But Unless there's some kind of Supreme Court precedent set that says, "you gotta find violations the old fashioned way, even if it's right there, clear as day on Google Maps" I don't think we're putting this Genie back in the bottle.
The correct response is "It has no effect on the Health, Safety, or Welfare of the public. Therefore it's outside the authority of the township".
If you had a couple junk cars in your basement would the township be able to ticket you? No. Because it doesn't affect the public. Township wanks THINK they can enforce their desires. It isn't so. But people have to stand up to them and be willing to go to court. I learned after years of harassment entering my privacy fence and taking pictures to court. Finally I said "Invasion of privacy" and "Health, safety, and welfare of the public" and it stopped.
Yeah.
And again.
I'm going to guess from a legal standpoint, the types of things these county and state officials are looking for via google maps are going to vary in scope and type, but the fact of the matter is, all this liberating technology is liberating for... everyone. Which includes liberating your county inspector from finding violations the old fashioned way.
And the correct response to that is to change the law.
For example, we might generally restrict the use and sale of satellite and aerial photography of private property.
Or we might explicitly limit zoning enforcement to anything visible from the road.
Striking down one inspection based on some idiosyncratic issues around drones isn’t going to get to the root of the problem.
There is a precedent that a police officer can't examine the curtilage of someone's property without a warrant, if he has to use extraordinary means to view it, and if the public would not be expected to enter an area uninvited. If he has to pile something up to look over a fence, etc., so I would say extraordinary means would include using a flying device for that purpose. Your front drive and yard adjacent to the road would be accessible to a normal person to come to your door. A rear corner behind a six foot fence would not. If there's a cement block next to the fence, or a pile of dirt, he can climb on it.
Yet, I can look into your backyard from Google Maps or while flying over it.
You may or may not be able to make a legal argument about drones the way you did, but that’s not a good way of making policy.
Yes, you can. The police can't. Or more specifically, they can but if they do so without a warrant, they can't use what they saw in court.
Note: I say "can't" but have to acknowledge that court precedent is incoherently inconsistent on this point. Perhaps "shouldn't" would be better.
Well, the court obviously disagrees with you. Furthermore, the court’s decision is pretty consistent with the traditional use of airspace and aerial photography.
If you want police to be unable to use aerial photography as evidence without a court order, that needs to be legislated. As part of such a decision, you better then also address a lot of other related questions.
1948: "In the far distance a helicopter skimmed down between the roofs, hovered for an instant like a bluebottle, and darted away again with a curving flight." -Nineteen eighty-four
what you describe is primary probable cause. The copper sees Dick Driver swilling from a can clearly marked with his (the cop's)favourite brew, realises it is a criminal offense for a driver to be imbibing whilst under care and conrtol of a vehicle, pops the light. No warrant necessary. Same as watching a car fail to stop at a boulevard stop. No warrant needed. The violation was seen firshand, needs no rufther cause to "contact".
Nothing like this happened with the cars in the yard. To try and FIND a violation from off the property, and failing KNOWING they could not enter the subject owner's property without a warrant. to then hire someone ELSE to violate their airppacce to use that evidence to punish them is violation of the couple's due rights.
I bet the proliferation of drone technology for delivering your Perc order isn't looking super hip-swiveling libertarian now, is it?
"Zoning enforcement" has become the new speed trap to raise revenue for the government.
Shoot them down.
Yep. You can always say you thought they were Iranian suicide drones.
I would have no idea where they came from. So why would I allow such an invasive object in my private airspace? As far as I know, it could be Shrike, scouting for his next young rape victim.
I think all you would have to do is damage one of the copter blades to make the drone uncontrollable.
Late breaking update!
Town amends complaint to include a backhoe as well as several vehicles.
In an unrelated story, the neighbors who filed the complaint failed to show up for a deposition.
Cites?
What if the neighbor gives drones footage to the government? What about the plain view doctrine if they don't fly over the property but just near it?
What if the government pays someone to break into your house to obtain evidence?
What if they use a really long pole with a hook to steal documents related to fraud from the other side of the property line?
What if...you don't have any real questions?
I'm pretty sure both of those are trespassing which has nothing to do with the plain view doctrine. Try again.
For some reason the United States requires "standing" before you can charge the government with violating your Constitutional rights. I have never understood this. It seems to me that the moment government at any level adopts an ordinance or passes a law, any number of citizens should automatically have "standing" to start a legal appeal process to declare the law unconstitutional. Apparently, we have to wait until someone's constitutional rights are actually violated by officials before we can start the process to determine constitutionality of the law. Can anyone please explain this to me?
I think that's an effect from court influence on law, because the courts would be flooded with law suits otherwise. Of course, Government would be much more afraid to overstep, too.
Serious question, because I don't know : How much of the airspace around / over your house is considered "yours" ?
It technically belongs to you, but the public has an easement. So, you can build in your air space, but the public can generally fly through it.
It is debatable where the line of private airspace above one’s property should be, whether the FAA exceeded its authority with drone regulations, etc. However, code enforcement can (and has) easily be done from planes and satellites these days, and those clearly operate in what most people would consider “public airspace”.
Hmmm... I hadn't thought about it from that perspective. That would neatly resolve the privacy issues. The public has an easement to fly through your airspace - they do not automatically have an easement to do other things (like take pictures). Maybe we can convince the courts to enforce that easement to its proper basis. And, by implication, require a warrant for everything else.
What makes you think that public easements come with restrictions on taking pictures? They don’t anywhere else.
In Michigan, Townships only have the authority to regulate concerning the Health, Safety and Welfare of the Public. If they can't determine that a violation has occurred from where the Public can go it can't affect the public, therefore they have no authority.
The neighbors have the option to sue for loss of enjoyment of their land if they can reasonably see junk cars from their property. If they're snooping just to cause trouble or force someone to comply to their idea of what should be, they'll lose.
They “can go” into the air space above a property: it is considered a public space, just like a public road.
Maybe it shouldn’t be, but this decision is logically consistent with the legal status quo.
not so, because the court made a clear distinction between drone surveillance for criiminal as distinct from civil proceedings against the target. And no, I cannot take an airplane ride nor use a drone to overfly yur property for the express purpose of taking photographs that will later be sent to some other entity.and especially not for HIRE. If they got money for running the photo flight they would violate the residents' airpace and need a warrant.
WTF do you get those bizarre ideas? Commercial aerial photography and commercial satellite photography have been around for a long time. And governments, both in the US and abroad, have used it for code enforcement, drug enforcement, tax assessments, and many other purposes for just about as long.
“If the government wants to conduct intrusive surveillance like this, the Fourth Amendment requires that it get a warrant,”
The text of the 4th Amendment is no more complicated than that of the 2nd and this is all just willful ignorance.
“Open fields” is BS when taken to this level. An open field is just that: something that the public drives by and can see into without effort. This was a drone purposely flown over somebody’s back yard for the purpose of observation, ergo the cops or town busybody department need to get a warrant.
This is just not that difficult to understand if one understands the basic concept of our Constitution: to LIMIT the GOVERNMENT’s assault on the life, liberty and property of the people. If precedent is so sacred, at the expense of the written Constitution, then why bother with a written constitution and not just do everything solely based on common law?
Under current law, the air space above a property is public, just like a public road. Legally, this is no different than driving down a public road and looking at someone’s property.
Is it public? Or does the public have an easement of sorts to overfly it? I would argue for an easement, likely something akin to an easement of necessity. I believe that, at one time, your property was considered to extend from the center of the earth to outer space. Then we got air flight, and flying effectively required that planes (etc) not have to zig and zag around property lines, and commercial planes on approach, or taking off, regularly cross the property of many thousands of people. Getting permission to overfly those houses is completely impractical, and worse, the flight paths frequently change a bit to compensate for any number of things, including weather, source/destination, whether the President is visiting town, etc. practically, in order to have air flight, we needed to lightly encumber the property below the flight paths with overflight rights. And that is why the easement theory fits better, at least for me, than the alienation theory that you seem to be pushing. Moreover, the easement theory fits better with the slow encroachment to the airspace over your house than the alienation theory, because it was gradual. With the alienation theory, you really have to answer the question of when, exactly, did the alienation occur. With an easement, all that you really need to answer is whether, at the relevant time, was the easement well enough established.
Brief interlude. Today I was talking to another board member of our HOA. Her neighbor had intruded onto her property with a driveway (coincidentally built by her brother). She is planning to get permission from the architectural review committee (that we both sit on) to put in a parking pad that would cut off his illegal driveway (he didn’t get HOA permission, despite being president at the time). The relevance is essentially his easement over her property, and whether she can cut it off (we haven’t gotten to adverse possession yet). I could take either side of the dispute as the attorney, but once she does it, it will cost him too much to fight in court.
The thing about easements, and in particular unwritten ones, is that they are most typically limited. One reason is the Statute of Frauds. The jet flying across your property is doing so because allowing such is the only really practical way to do so. Same with a chopper flying much lower, but speeding from point A to point B, with the line between them intersecting your airspace. And the cops shining their spotlights into your backyard, from their chopper, usually involves a somewhat hot pursuit. (We moved from one side of PHX to the opposite end to avoid that). But with an easement theory of airspace, there can easily be limitations on the rights of overflight. The jet flying a couple thousand feet above you, or the chopper beeping across town at a couple hundred feet, can easily be distinguished from the drone hovering 20 feet above the property looking for code violations. The former are, essentially, from some sort of necessity, while the latter is purely discretionary, and done to bypass Constitutional warrant requirements.
Public easements come with the ability to do things you can do in public, like take photographs. In fact, “no photography” restrictions you encounter anywhere in the US generally are based on trespassing laws; that is, you aren’t telling people not to take photographs, you are telling them that if they don’t stop taking photographs, you revoke your permission for them to be on your private property. If you can’t revoke that permission, you have no grounds on which to tell them to stop taking photographs.
As a practical matter, airplanes and satellites have been taking pictures of people’s backyards for many decades.
There are a few things here that could have an effect on this issue. For General Aviation they are required to maintain 3,000 feet of altitude over residential areas except for airport approaches and patterns. I don't know if that extends to drones or not.
Another thing is that it is possible to take photos or videos of property without crossing the property line. If their neighbors reported the additional vehicles they may have also given permission for the drone to overfly their property.
Last, I came home from work a few days ago to find a guy putting campaign signs in my yard. I told him to remove them that he didn't have any right or permission to put them there. He DID remove them, but says that he had a right because the Township claims a 100 foot easement on both sides of the centerline of a road. I checked, they do have the easement, but, it doesn't give him permission to put the signs there. Whole lot of gray areas here.
Castle doctrine. Shoot his signs.
“He was coming right at me!”
Shoot him.
The minimum safe altitude for fixed wing airplanes according to the FAA is 500 ft above ground/structures; it is even lower for helicopters. Drones may not fly above 400 ft at all and have no federal lower limits.
Some states or towns have weak limits on flying private drones over someone else's private property, mostly related to privacy (e.g., spying through windows).
the city poohbahs DID just that and could not find what they were wanting to find. THEN they hired a proffessional to violate their property rights and go snooping to see what the city poohbahs could not see. That makes it warrant time.
If the cars were in the guy's LONG driveway three abreast, plainly visible from the pubic roadway, the city poohbahs could have prosecuted without the hired help.
THAT also makes it warrant time.
This is abuse of power. In the eyes of the law citizens should be innocent until proven guilty. It is a disturbing trend where the regime consider everyone guilty until they prove themselves to be innocent.
how does a drone violate the 4 amendment? as a property owner you don't own the air space above your house. a drone flying above your house is no different than a car driving in the street in front of your house.
Since this involves flying objects, Bird Law comes into play.
READ the text of that Article of Ammendment, I just did. It specifically relates to GOVERNMENT to any level acting to violate your provacy.
That ARticle provides no limits to government action UNTIL saidaction violates MY security in my "persons houses papers and effects". The "house" includes the curtilgage thereto (backyrad, front yard, barn, etc) and the cars aare certainly "effects", that is, the stuff" the person owns or controls. In this case, the "effects of interest" to the city are the supposedly "offending" vehicles.
this hired overflight and securing of imaging detailing the presence of the target "effects" was a clear violation of the resident's security in his HOUSES, and in hi EFFECTS. Two out of four prohibited activities perpetrated by government.
To you who think this is no violation.. how's about some stranger operating withot your permission, overflies YOUR place and sees/records you and your wife doing what married people are often wont to do, right out in your backyard, between the garage and the slid back fence, which is an invisible area from without the proprerty, but not from overhead. Maybe take that "explicit" video footage and publish it somewhere.....
IF the city moneywasters had spent a few minutes of their pweshis time and bothered to GET that warrant, the courts would be busily doing harm to someone else. They were simply in "out to nail them" mode and lazy. Maybe they guessed these folk would simply roll over and pay the fine. They did not, now they got egg in their mugs.
The likely intent of the local zoning law is to minimize trashy appearances that could drive down home property values of other neighbors. If the neighbor were selling his or her home, would a potential buyer avoid the sale (or pay less) if the neighbor’s yard looked like a used car lot (visible from the road or the house for sale)?
If the local official did indeed receive a real complaint, from a neighbor, the official could be invited onto the complaining-neighbor’s property (invited onto private property) to view it from their window. No judicial search warrant required if invited onto the complaining-neighbor’s property.
If this was a made-up complaint, where some local officials target unpopular citizens for unequal enforcement - the local government punishing particular citizens based on race, religion or any other reason (masquerading as a complaint) - the local official could be criminally prosecuted under federal law. The local official would be violating the 14th Amendment (unequal treatment) which is clarified under federal criminal statutes like Title 18 US Code 245. The DOJ and FBI could arrest the local code official. Many local governments target unpopular citizens all of the time while not applying those same laws to their friends or more affluent residents - this is a criminal violation of federal law perpetrated by the local official.
Yes, one can see the yard from aircraft and most drone flights regulations are limited to a minimum of 100ft above a home and the vertical property lines but would that meet the intent of the zoning law? If the yard can’t be seen by neighbors or from the road.
Obviously it wasn’t visible from the neighboring homes, or the town wouldn’t have had to hire a drone photographer.
The neighbor who called the complaint was a liar who happened to be correct.
Intent of the zoning law is moot. Either the vehicles in question were in violation or they were not. The city cold not establishwhich was true,and so violated the owners right to privacy and hired the tin spy bird to do their dirty work.Seems the city poohbahs were out to get this couple. Be curious to know what triggered the original action, and WHY they dogged it for soe years after the first official"contact" on the matter. Somebody nad a personal vendetta against the peroperty owners.
God instituted the "civil mgistrate" to "bear the sword against those who DO HARM. The root issue seems to be the presence, simpliciter, of the vehicles in question. This is nonsense. HOW is such possession "harm" to someone else? There IS no harm done here except by the very government magistrates tasked with punishing those who DO harn.. in this case themselves, against the owners of this property.
No word of rats infesting the cars, oil leaking into the ground and leaching onto the neighbour's place, stink of spilt fuel, noise of working on or dismantilng them, the "violation" harmed no one and was apparently not even known by anyone nearby.
Buy your own drone and counter attack. Drone on drone aerial combat.
You mean... record Kleptocracy politicians, cops and bureaucrats swiving their buddies, shooting up fentanyl and gunning down puppies?
The Long Lake community is filled with karens much like the area surrounding Interlochen and Silver Lake. Living in those areas is like living in a huge HOA .
I've lived next door in Traverse City in the past and a certain lot there are about as intolerable as hell.
As far as drones are concerned, flying one over someone's back yard or up next to a bed room window is about as dangerous as it gets....for the operator. I once got into an over the internet argument with someone who thought they could do exactly that until I told them to check with his state's codes on voyeurism and what the penalties are.
Most people operate drones with a modicum of respect for private property but then there are those who could care less.
Youtube and the Internet has pushed the boundaries of what's acceptable.
Orwell saw this coming: "The instrument (the telescreen, it was called) could be dimmed, but there was no way of shutting it off completely... In the far distance a helicopter skimmed down between the roofs, hovered for an instant like a bluebottle, and darted away again with a curving flight. It was the police patrol, snooping into people's windows." Thank God's Own Prohibitionist and East German Democratic Party voters for those laws and muppet-judges...
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/59148fa0add7b04934568ac1
Please read case law from 1983. I hated michigan the state police state. Love my michigan but despised the tactics used to get kids into the legal system