Judge Reviewing Mar-a-Lago Documents Complains That Trump Has Offered No Evidence He Declassified Them
In any case, that issue does not seem relevant under the statutes that the FBI cited in its search warrant.

When the FBI searched former President Donald Trump's home at his Palm Beach resort last month, it was investigating possible violations of three federal statutes. None of those crimes hinges on the question of whether the documents that the FBI found at Mar-a-Lago, more than 100 of which were marked as classified, still had that status. That issue nevertheless has become a major point of contention between Trump and the Justice Department as they wrangle over what should be done with the 11,000 or so records seized by the FBI.
Trump's lawyers say the government has failed to prove any of the documents were still classified, while the government's lawyers say Trump has presented no evidence to the contrary. U.S. District Judge Raymond Dearie, the "special master" appointed to review the records, yesterday endorsed the government's take on that issue. Dearie, who served seven years on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, suggested he had no business second-guessing classification markings. "As far as I'm concerned, that's the end of it," he said during a hearing in Brooklyn, unless Trump can present evidence that he declassified the records when he still had the authority to do so.
Trump attorney James Trusty implied that such evidence exists, but he said disclosing it would be premature. "We are not in a position, nor should we be in a position at this juncture, to fully disclose a substantive defense," Trusty said. "We shouldn't have to be in a position to have to disclose declarations and witness statements." Dearie was not buying it. "My view of it is you can't have your cake and eat it," he replied.
All of this is rather surreal in light of the precautions that everyone, with the possible exception of Trump himself, seems to think are appropriate in handling the records marked as classified. Trusty, who already has a top-secret security clearance thanks to work on a prior case, told Dearie he was seeking expedited clearances for his colleagues so they also could have access to the documents. The New York Times reports that Julie Edelstein, a Justice Department lawyer, said "a handful of the documents at issue were so secret that even Mr. Trusty's clearance might not be enough." She added that "some of the documents are so sensitive that members of the team investigating possible offenses here have not yet been able to see them."
Even Dearie, despite his extensive work as a judge who routinely dealt with classified information, said he would prefer to resolve the dispute without reading the sensitive documents. "It's not just a matter of having the clearance," he said. "It's a matter of need to know."
If you believe Trump and trust his judgment, all these safeguards are unnecessary, because he decided the records were not sensitive enough to justify keeping them classified. Trump claims he had "a standing order" as president that automatically declassified any documents he removed from the Oval Office to study at his residence in the White House. "The very fact that these documents were present at Mar-a-Lago," he said four days after the FBI's search, "means they couldn't have been classified."
The policy that Trump described was news to national security officials who should have known about it. William Barr, Trump's former attorney general, thinks it is "highly improbable" that Trump ever issued such an order, which "would be such an abuse and show such recklessness that it's almost worse than taking the documents."
Trump's lawyers notably have not repeated his "standing order" claim in court. But they told U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon, who appointed Dearie at Trump's request last week, that she should not accept the presumption that documents marked as classified are in fact classified. "The Government has not proven these records remain classified," Trusty et al. said last week. "That issue is to be determined later."
Trump's attorneys were responding to the government's request for a partial stay that would have allowed the FBI to continue using those documents for its criminal investigation while Dearie reviews the rest to determine which might qualify as personal property, attorney-client communications, or material covered by executive privilege. After Cannon rejected that motion, the Justice Department asked the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit to intervene.
In a motion filed last Friday, the government's lawyers argue that the reasons for having Dearie review the documents do not apply to the records marked as classified, which bore labels ranging from "confidential" to "top secret" and included "sensitive compartmented information" about intelligence sources and methods. "The markings establish on the face of the documents that they are not Plaintiff's personal property," the motion says, "and neither Plaintiff nor the court has suggested that they might be subject to attorney-client privilege. Plaintiff has never even attempted to make or substantiate any assertion of executive privilege."
The Justice Department also notes that Trump's lawyers have not embraced his declassification claim. "Plaintiff has never disputed that the government's search recovered records bearing classification markings," it says. "Instead, the district court cited portions of Plaintiff's filings in which he suggested that he could have declassified those documents or purported to designate them as 'personal' records under the [Presidential Records Act] before leaving office. But despite multiple opportunities, Plaintiff has never represented that he in fact took either of those steps—much less supported such a representation with competent evidence."
In response, Trump's lawyers reiterated their argument that the documents' classification status remains a matter of dispute. "The Government again presupposes that the documents it claims are classified are, in fact, classified and their segregation is inviolable," Trusty and Christopher Kise, another Trump lawyer, write in a brief they filed with the 11th Circuit yesterday. "However, the Government has not yet proven this critical fact."
As Dearie sees it, the burden of proof at this stage of the case, which involves civil litigation over which documents the government can keep and how they can be used, is on Trump, not the government. If the Justice Department ultimately decides to prosecute Trump, of course, it will have the burden of proving his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But that won't necessarily involve rebutting Trump's claim that he declassified everything he took.
At yesterday's hearing, Trusty implied that "declarations and witness statements" concerning declassification of the purloined documents would be part of Trump's "substantive defense" in a criminal case. How so? "The Government apparently contends that President Trump, who had full authority to declassify documents, 'willfully' retained classified information in violation of the law," Trusty and Kise write, citing 18 USC 793(e). But that provision, which is one of the laws cited in the FBI's search warrant, does not mention classification, referring instead to "defense information" that "could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation."
In principle, that description could apply to sensitive documents even if Trump actually declassified them, especially if he did so as recklessly as his description suggests. The relevance of the two other statutes that the FBI mentioned, which deal with improper retention of government documents (classified or not) and obstruction of justice, likewise does not depend on whether anyone believes Trump's story about "a standing order."
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Actual development in the Trump documents case or Sullum is worried that DeSantis' immigration 'stunt' has more legs than he's comfortable with and the narrative needs to be refocused on yet another impeachment totally-not-a-stunt? You decide!
Suderman used to have the get Trump beat. But Suderman got so deranged and reason had to do something. So, the job has now fell to Sullumn.
And it looks like Sullum now has a bad case of TDS as well.
He always did.
-jcr
It has been a constant drum beat of the right that ANY criticism of Trump is TDS, whether deserved or not. It's a neat way to filter out information they don't like.
Is there any reason to dismiss this information? No, of course not. But "Sullum has TDS" sidesteps the information completely and tries to negate the conveyer....even if it is, in fact, valid information.
"Sullum is worried that DeSantis’ immigration ‘stunt’ has more legs than he’s comfortable with "
Nah, people on the left are already declaring victory regarding the MV situation. They fed them pizza! Take that chuds!
IME, no one outside MV is buying it. Even relatively pro-immigration but not fanatical Democrats are scratching their head about MV, a tourist town, for being too poor and ill-equipped to accommodate a "surge" of 50 people.
Mike Liarson is buying it.
He sold his soul to the DNC a long time ago.
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The vast majority of the country has raised an eyebrow at the deliberate misappropriate of Florida funds to "own the libs" in MV. Most legal professionals are raising flags about the lack of authority to do it.
Very few people believe it is unimportant.
No breakfast tacos?
if actual development, stupid pic not necessary.
+1
As Dearie sees it, the burden of proof at this stage of the case, which involves civil litigation over which documents the government can keep and how they can be used, is on Trump, not the government. If the Justice Department ultimately decides to prosecute Trump, of course, it will have the burden of proving his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But that won't necessarily involve rebutting Trump's claim that he declassified everything he took.
I guess the phrases "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "presumed innocent" are beyond Sullum's comprehension. Christ Sullum is a fucking dipshit.
And for the 400th time, documents being marked classified is not conclusive proof they are classified. It just means someone considered them classified at one time. The markings don't disappear like something out of Harry Potter when a document is declassified.
The fact that documents are marked is sufficient to support the government claims of being classified. The Trump lawyers asked for the Special Master and they are as obligated to respond to that person as are the government attorneys. If they want the documents back they need to show that they are not classified and not privileged. You don't get a presumption of innocence if you refuse to make your case.
The former President had four chiefs of staff in his term and I have not seen one come forward to support Trump's claim of blank declassification.
Yeah, but Trump said they were declassified and that's good enough for Briggs C, plus, if Trump does it, it's not illegal.
Careful shrike. Mask is slipping again.
Well, given that he had near-universal authority to declassify anything he wanted, and the declassification happens even if no procedure, it almost is a situation where if the president does it it's not illegal, and given the timing, it's certain that these were taken when he was president.
There is, however, no evidence that this alleged classification ever took place. The argument "oh, he must have declassified them else he wouldn't have moved them to Maga Lago" is obviously absurd.
Nothing says “libertarian” like arguing against second guessing the feds.
Hm read much?
the burden of proof at this stage of the case, which involves civil litigation
Neither "beyond a reasonable doubt" nor "presumed innocent" apply to civil disputes.
No criminal charges have been filed (and probably never will IMO). So calm your pretty head Mr. Cunningham!
Certainly there is no criminal case; if Trump says he declassified them, and when done by a President there is no "announcement" process, then that is that. Whether they were documents that should have been in the archive, and were kept by Trump, you can bet that every president EVER has kept a few things.
Except that the DOJ issued a grand jury subpoena requesting all documents with classification markings. Trumps legal team didn't challenge the subpoena and in fact responded to it with some documents responsive to said subpoena and certified there were no more responsive documents. Of course, the search warrant recovered over 100more responsive documents. That act alone could satisfy obstruction if it was done knowingly.
Forgetting the rest; knowingly lying in response to a grand jury subpoena is itself a crime. So either his lawyer takes the hit for that or Trump does. You think Christina Bob is going to take that felony for Trump?
You obviously have never worked with classified documents, and have no idea what procedures are actually required when de-classifying something.
Pull your head out of your ass.
One is not presumed innocent in civil cases, which this currently is. And the burden is not "beyond a reasonable doubt". Whether you agree with it or not, the burden is always on the defendant in civil forfeiture cases-a fact that Reason constantly reports on.
Sullum explains in detail why the classification matter doesn't really concern anyone. That said, if Trump signed a super secret executive order declassifying the materials, he does have to prove that. It's what is called an affirmative defense. (I did the acts charged, but because of another fact, I am still not guilty.) His lawyers have admitted as much. And their claims have gone, as Sullum again notes, from saying Trump DID declassify them to Trump COULD have declassified them.
While Trump declassifying the materials would defend him against an espionage charge (Sullivan is wrong on that one), it would be no defense to obstruction of justice or theft of government documents.
Ehhhhhhh, I'm already bored of #TrumpDocuments. I mean, don't get me wrong, it will surely land Trump in prison before the 2024 election.
Which means we should focus on that other, much more serious scandal involving a 2024 GOP contender: DeSantis' #MarthasVineyardHumanTrafficking operation. Come on, Reason. Don't end this work day without another anti-DeSantis article. 🙂
#LizCheney2024
#WallsClosingIn
If not by 2024, we'll have him behind bars before the decade is out.
So...... We're trusting the fisa court now?
We always trust the FISA court as long as it’s going after anyone with an (R) after their name.
Of course, it's the liberal-tarian thing to do. That is, if Trump.
I'm not but kind of funny since Trump did. He signed the reauthorized of sect 702 of fisa.
That’s a tricky argument to make given that Dearie was the Trump team’s nominee to be special master.
The alternative argument being that all the documents should be made public so we can decide amongst ourselves which of them should remain classified.
Bad move by trumps team as Drearie was one of the ones reviewing the falsified FISA applications.
Holy Shit, Sullum! How did you miss this nuclear statement:
I mean, I know how you missed it because you said: But that provision, which is one of the laws cited in the FBI’s search warrant, does not mention classification, referring instead to “defense information” that “could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation.”
Which is a “1 truth and 1 lie” statement. The provision doesn’t mention classification but the search warrant does.
More critically, whether you realize it or not, you retards are setting up a situation where you’re the monkey chasing the weasel; where the law doesn’t say “classified”, ergo Trump doesn’t have to say, “Declassified!”, *and* the specifically-noted classified nature of the documents in the search warrant is bullshit.
Technically, what happened today was purely procedural. The judge said “Classified means classified.” Trusty and Kise said, “Sure, but absent a crime and information in the documents, we can’t effectively defend our client.” to which Dearie said, “OK, get them appropriate/necessary clearance ASAP.” but, if you and Politico (more you) want to look like retards trying to spin it into an apparent “We have to convict him before we can find out what the charges were.” go ahead.
Side note: Enthusiasm for Reason's edit function duly tempered. Certain formatting tags get dropped on edit, potentially changing minor typos into massive formatting errors.
The DoJ lawyers are also using the classification cover to keep Trump's lawyers away from reviewing the documents as part of their defense. They are refusing to grant security clearances to mount a future defense.
All of this talk of “Classified” seems to be a miss-direction. This special master is not here to adjudicate or even prove / dis-prove a crime but to separate private protected documents from those that are not. Why is he then sticking his nose into business that is not his? One more case of Trump being singled out for special treatment by the establishment.
> Why is he then sticking his nose into business that is not his?
That is precisely what he is trying to avoid. He quite literally said so. He doesn’t want himself or anyone else rummaging through government, defense dept. NSA CIA etc documents. Is anyone seriously suggesting one will find something protected by attorney client privilege in a classified document?
The only side asking for special treatment here is Trump’s. They want to assemble a list of classified documents with knowledge of the contents so they can begin custom making reasons why it’s no big deal that Trump took them with him, and how he specifically remembers telling everyone that this one and that one were no longer secret.
Attorney privilege isnt the only ground granted for review.
So his job is to determine if the documents are not classified, but he can't determine that unless he reads them which he doesn't want to do because he might be reading classified information?
His job is not to determine if they are classified. His job is to go through the 11k documents and separate purely personal records from presidential records and remove any irrelevant documents with no evidentiary value or purpose (such as newspaper clippings etc) from the pile and return them. In addition, remove any attorney client privileged documents and also return them. Trump's team has also asked him to review for executive privilege -however the Govt is arguing as far as purely government records are concerned...there can be no executive privilege to assert against the now existing executive branch...which the DOJ is a part of. That fight will happen at a later date.
How can his lawyers make claims of privilege which is one of the grounds given to them in the review?
I also like libertarians for pushing of prosecutions for incorrectly storing non-classified government information. Every time Sullum justifies this, he's pushing for more government power to keep secrets and punish people who want to share government secrets. It's so ridiculous anti-libertarian.
"It’s so ridiculous anti-libertarian."
Well, when I think about Sullum and Reason Editors, they're so ridiculously anti-libertarian.
The funny thing is that the FBI visited Trump months earlier about these documents and gave recommendations about proper storage. Which he followed.
Thats not how I understand it. Maybe that pertains to documents he admitted to having. However, his lawyer signed a statement in June stating there were no more classified documents at Mara-Lago and had been returned, which turned out to be a lie.
If you read all the documents carefully; when the DOJ chief went to Mar a Lago to pick up documents the grand jury subpoenaed...he was shown the storage room which contained more boxes. The DOJ personnel asked to look in them to confirm no documents with classification markings were present. They were denied access. This was the same day/event in which the declaration by Trump's representative was given to DOJ certifying they did a diligent search of all of Mar A Lago and there were not only no more documents but also the only place the documents were was in said storage room. The classified mark bearing documents found in his office put that lie to bed.
All of this would have been easily avoided if Trump wasn't an idiot and his lawyers even dumber. Pro tip: don't hire counsel based on looks.
If a search warrant says that the police believe that an individual is in possession of marijuana, cocaine, and methamphetamine, that does not invalidate the latter search if no meth is found....but the other two drugs are. Mistakes of fact do not mean a warrant is void. So, were you correct, this point wouldn't mean a whole lot.
Unfortunately, you are not really correct. The warrant lists possible things that can be taken including classified OR defense documents. Nothing in the warrant hinges on classification.
Finally, it is not "retarded" to note that a defendant is raising irrelevant claims. If the government does not have to prove the documents are classified, then you are correct, Trump does not have to prove that they are not. Here, for at least two statutes, classification is irrelevant. And it certainly has no bearing on the purely civil matter over whether the documents belong to Trump or the government.
You completely missed the mark on your mockery.
Call in the posse to shanghai the ex-President for overdue library books. “Bring lawyers, guns and money…”
Garland and the DC cult will have an orgasm. Popcorn for the loyalists. Tell ‘em the books hold nuke codes or texts from Putin. Oh, wait. Scratch that. They don’t. We just made that up to sweet talk the media stooges at Reason.
Change the spin. Let’s roll with how bureaucrat Karen over in Archives is cranky. It’s getting ugly. She wants her shit back. She’s copying everyone at the NYT at this point with her emails and threatening to make everyone dust off their desks.
If it doesn’t work out, sell the books to the 6Jan crazies. They need new material.
Did Sullum mention the DoJ made the claim they have reclassified everything Trump is claiming is classified and they refuse to give Trump's lawyers clearances to review the supposed classified documents to make claims?
That could be really interesting. We know that Trump formally ordered a binder full of RussiaGate documents declassified his last full day in office. Did the bureaucrats reclassify those documents after he left office with copes of them? Trump explained that he ordered them declassified because he had been trying to go through channels to get them declassified for upwards of a couple years, and the bureaucrats at DOJ and esp FBI kept returning the documents mostly blacked out. His view was that the reason that he wanted to declassify them was to expose the perfidy and malfeasance of the DOJ NSD and esp the FBI CD, in their roles in RussiaGate and Crossfire Hurricane. And, of course, they were involved in the raid, and almost assuredly in any reclassification of those documents. And this is why it is critical to identify the supposedly classified documents, because if those documents were the ones reclassified, then their reclassification likely violates Obama’s EO prohibiting classification of documents to prevent embarrassment to government agencies. Plus, it looks very bad - the DOJ/FBI reclassifying documents declassified by Trump to disclose their perfidy and malfeasance.
None of what you just wrote is true, you fucking incessant liar.
Probably not I’m guessing. But personally, I think Trump really messed up here. The second he knew they were fishing around for documents, he should have taken all said documents, classified or not, to a fire pit, and burned them all. Then, for his 2024 line of MAGA hats, they could say, “Make America Great Again”, and in fine print below that “what about his documents”. Then, there would be no issue. People will make a stink about it in the media (of course), but the only thing the feds will say is, “improper handling sure, but we’ve decided not to prosecute”.
No they would have used that as "obstruction of justice" or something.
Mainly because it would be?
And because both of the other statutes in question cover the loss or destruction of said documents.
He should have committed an obvious crime to defend himself in other words.
Also Navy v Egan does not require written declarations of declassification. It explicitly mentions the President could declassify on whim when talking with foreign leaders. Both Obama and Bush signed EOs exempting them from declassification procedures.
The judge is putting Trump's team into a catch 22.
I think you would have to look at the original classifying authority. If President Trump writes a letter to Putin and wants it kept secret, he can classify it. If when talking to the leader of China about Russia he can instantly “declassify” it to tell them about the letter he wrote to Putin and then “reclassify it” so it remains secret to everybody else. If, however, the CIA creates a report on Putin and Trump mentions that in a discussion with the leader of China..the declassification would be instantaneous but once the meeting is over I do believe the CIA would need consulted/approve permanent declassification especially if sources and methods (spies) were relied upon to create the report. I don’t practice nat’l security law but I do know there is a process and the original classifying authority can object to having something once classified de-classified. I think the president could override that objection but I think the opportunity for the CIA to chime in is required. Which makes sense. Normally these things are all done within the executive branch and everybody is on board (cabinet secretaries etc…) so as to prevent the release of sensitive information but to also let the president carry out his duties as president as it relates to foreign policy or nat’l defense.
Most presidents would not be as sloppy as Trump admittedly has been. Trump isn’t a politician and never served in the military…but there is zero chance he wasn’t briefed repeatedly on handling of sensitive documents and state secrets. He just doesn’t/didn’t care. He treated many facets of his presidency like he was CEO who answers to nobody and could do whatever he wants whenever he wants. All this document bs is a product of that careless attitude.
I did a quick read through of Obama's Executive Order 13526- Classified National Security Information. Lots of information on classification and declassification. I did not see anything to suggest a President can declassify without documenting the change in status. Did you?
Why would he have to jump through bureaucratic hurdles to declassify information/documents as the primary classifier? The bureaucrats worked for him, not the other way around.
Apparently, because the democrats hate trump, different standards apply.
(b) Information originated by the incumbent President or the incumbent Vice President; the incumbent President’s White House Staff or the incumbent Vice President’s Staff; committees, commissions, or boards appointed by the incumbent President; or other entities within the Executive Office of the President that solely advise and assist the incumbent President is exempted from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section.
https://www.archives.gov/isoo/policy-documents/cnsi-eo.html#three
The section you referenced (3.5 BTW) says that the people listed in (b) don't have to do a review to declassify. Nowhere does it say they don't have to document that they made a declassification.
What do you think a review is?
I think a review is a process that evaluates the information in the document to make a decision if that document still requires classification or if it can be declassified.
I think documentation is recording that document XXX is no longer classified. If the documentation has been done to record that a document is no longer classified Trump's lawyers should show that to the SM.
So you think it's not actually declassified until the bureaucracy gets around to it?
It's not actually declassified until the President declassifies it. That decision needs to be documented. It doesn't need to be reviewed. Maybe it could be written in crayon on toilet paper, but it at least needs to be officially communicated.
It's like executive orders. A president can executively order whatever he wants. But he can't do it telepathically. He has to write it down and tell people about it.
Exactly correct. The former President had four Chiefs of Staff and not one has come forth to say the classification order was even made.
*Ahem* [holds script aloft] Whether any of the records seized from Trump’s home are classified may ultimately be a side issue. The Justice Department has emphasized that the three potential crimes it is investigating don’t hinge on whether the material held at Mar-a-Lago was classified.
[drops script]
So the specifically-noted classified documents in the search warrant were false pretense?
You think the search warrant was too narrow?
I think you don't know what the term "false pretense" means.
I think the search is obviously between fishing expedition and red herring. If the classification of the documents was immaterial to the case being made, then Attachment B specifically states to pick up documents immaterial to the case being made. Which is unreasonable search and seizure.
Seriously, when was the last time you heard of a search warrant being executed and, a month later, the charges motivating the warrant are just publicly unstated, but aren't even known to the accused/defense? I get that an FPOTUS is a special case and lots of people have been struck blind and retarded by TDS, but the precedent is really fucking horrific for, jurinalists, whistleblowers, and average little guys.
The classified documents aren't immaterial to the case being made. The fact that they are classified may be immaterial. But the documents, classified or not, are totally material.
That's why the only conclusion you can get to from your rant is that by focusing on classified documents, the search warrant was too narrow. It could have been issued for all documents whatsoever at Mar-a-lago, any of which might turn out to be the property of the United States.
I'm not sure the statutory provisions are the only legal question when Trump's lawyers may argue declassification may also be an affirmative defense rooted in presidential privilege.
Trump's lawyers should be careful about being pressed to prove innocence. The burden of proof is on the FBI and prosecutors to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. All Trump's lawyers need to do is instill or retain any and all possible doubt.
This part of the trial is focused on the civil aspects of the claims.
They Keep Classified Documents in Unsecured Storage at Furniture Warehouse
September 21, 2022 | sundance
“Hoffman Estates” is a previously abandoned Chicago area Sears furniture warehouse. The Obama Foundation leased, then re-upped the lease, to use the facility to store all the paper documents from the Obama administration {Location Link}.
The Obama administration told the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) they were going to upload the documents into a digital form for use in the Obama library. The paper documents were, still are, held at the Hoffman Estates warehouse while this digitization process took place. It should be noted, the Obama Foundation has never digitized the records, hence they renewed the warehouse lease.
Contrast against the DOJ-NSD legal position about classified records held in the secure facility of Mar-a-Lago, a 2018 letter {Obama.org pdf here} from the Obama Foundation to the NARA is an example of the two-tiered selective justice system. Within the 2018 letter the Obama team admit to storing both “classified and unclassified” documents at the warehouse: [Page #2, bullet-point 7]
"Two-tiered" is putting it nicely.
Democrats are weaponizing the legal system in an attempt to persecute and destroy political opponents. Plain and simple.
attempt to persecute and destroy political opponents
And, again, the attempt will be to destroy only political opponents but, really, Iron Law #6 (Me today, you tomorrow.) means it will be everyone. Just ask Al Franken.
In a NARA controlled warehouse. NARA has said classified Obama documents are not kept there.
I won't pretend to be a lawyer or a legal savant ... but is it weird that 1) everybody keeps yelling about classified documents in the media and pro-Trump and even anti-Trump sites when in the affidavit the DOJ doesn't even care about classification ? And 2) for all the noise I hear about how Trump can declassify anything he wants at anytime he wants ... never once when in ACTUAL court before a judge and on the record does his lawyers ever assert that privilege at all ?
I feel like this whole thing is smoke and mirrors , or somebody is trying to make it so.
NARA was just trying to get the documents back, and Trump made a BFD of it.
Bullshit. Trump wasn't the one who showed up with a massive team of goons to do what one dweeb with a clipboard could have handled.
-jcr
I thought they sent a dweeb with a clipboard and asked nicely in the first place and Trump-team lied about giving what they asked for back. Isn't that why we are here now ? Somebody ratted that although Trump-team said they made all good faith effort to return the required docs, they didn't at all return the required docs so the Feds raided the joint ?
1) everybody keeps yelling about classified documents in the media and pro-Trump and even anti-Trump sites when in the affidavit the DOJ doesn’t even care about classification ?
The affidavit is a privately-generated signal. Anyone can allege anything they want to a court of law and The Constitution doesn't forbid, but actually protects, that ability. The warrant is where The Constitution explicitly proscribes what the Government can and can't do in regard to an affidavit and the warrant explicitly lays out that classified documents, as such, are supposed to be seized.
never once when in ACTUAL court before a judge and on the record does his lawyers ever assert that privilege at all ?
There isn't necessarily privilege against civil action and privilege isn't a blank check. It's a retarded bluffing game where the DOJ is trying to get Trump's team to declare privilege without (illegally) telling him what he's charged with so that they can make up claims prosecute around any/all claimed privilege.
The harder you look at it the more obvious it is "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime." being perpetrated across all levels of government.
Both sides are ignoring one problem. What evidence would Trump provide to show they are declassified? IIRC, the president can simply hand wave them as declassified, and there is no specific formal process in place to do so.
If they want to avoid this problem in the future, they can set up a formal process. But that wouldn't apply now.
“…they can set up a formal process. But that wouldn’t apply now.”
Who is “they”? That’s the problem-or the issue. The executive powers ( article 11) are vested in the President. Congress has some say on war, etc., but the president’s power is plenary on purely executive functions, especially concerning classified shit.
So there is no “they.” He is the “they.”. I think it was Jesse ( above) who cited Navy v. Egan. That case(law) stands for the proposition that President is the final arbiter on executive matters, not his subordinates or officers.
Article II (not 11) says nothing specifically about classifying or declassifying information though. So the law should spell out the President's role here clearly. But you can't hold Trump to the standards of a future law.
Article 2 has implied and residual powers beyond those made explicit. The vesting clause plus the take care clause plus being CIC gives the President tons of power not plainly expressed.
These docs are an executive matter. The president’s power over them is plenary. The DOJ ain’t winning that battle, ultimately, in terms of who decides classification.
Even if congress sought to pass a law on “proper declassification,” it would run into the separation of powers doctrine ( and be overturned by the court) or get vetoed- or just ignored.
Let’s say your legal theory is correct. That Trump didn’t even need to write, say, a quick note on a memo pad to let anyone know he was enacting a declassification policy. That we can just go on his retroactive say-so.
Declassification means not only that he is allowed to have the documents, but that anyone can request them though FOIA. Are you saying that it was his intention to take top secret documents and make them publicly available?
Yes. If the FOIA legally allows for declassified materials, then logically even you can have them.
(I’m not familiar with the parameters of FOIA, so my above comment is limited to the rule of parsimony.)
Yeah, sure. But it’s still a good idea, as President, to have some record of having given an order. Would really come in handy for Trump right about now.
You’re being facetious, right?
What evidence would Trump provide to show they are declassified?
Seriously? Any remotely competent President would provide the written order. A mostly retarded President would find a witness to testify that he'd given such an order verbally.
But only a fully asinine President would claim that he mentally declassified them without telling anyone. The inanity is complete. If you can't see that then you've fallen into the Trumphole.
Sure, if he provided a written memo that would certainly help him. But the FBI could say: "that's just a personal memo, has no legal standing, it doesn't specifically list every document it covers", etc there are 1000 things they could nitpick it over.
You can't fault someone for not following a process if there is no process in place.
Hahaha lol, that's your argument? Even if he had evidence, it would get cross-examined, so why bother? Ok man, good luck with that litigation strategy!
"I'm just not going to offer a defense because you guys aren't going to believe me anyway so what's the point."
"Ok, guilty. Next case."
Both sides are ignoring one problem. What evidence would Trump provide to show they are declassified?
No. One side, the overt law and order side, is jumping the gun and ignoring its duty under the law. Let's say I seized every document you touched in the last 4 yrs. and said, "I'm going to file some charges on some of this." You would, in your defense (and in contact with your lawyer), assert some of the information as not belonging to you, privileged communication, etc. However, if I don't tell you what the charges are, you can't necessarily claim (e.g.) spousal privilege or 3rd party ownership.
The problem here is that, despite executing a search warrant over a month ago, the DOJ still has not disclosed what specific crimes it's prosecuting. They're playing a game of retarded chicken with The Constitution and that should offend everyone, regardless of whether it lets Trump off or not.
Aren't the three specific crimes listed in the search warrant?
Tell us what they are.
Not sure why I'm stooping to the level of spoon feeding you but here you go:
Page 4:
Property to be seized
All physical documents and records constituting evidence, contraband, fruits of a crime, or other items illegally possessed in violation of 18 U.S.C. 793, 2071, or 1519, including the following:
a. Any physical documents with classification markings, along with any containers/boxes (including other contents) in which such documents are located, as well as any other containers/boxes that are collectively stored or found together with the aforementioned documents and containers/boxes;
b. Information, including communications in any form, regarding the retrieval, storage, or transmission of national defense information or classified material;
c. Any government and/or Presidential Records created between January 20, 2017, and January 20, 2021; or
d. Any evidence of the knowing alteration, destruction, or concealment of any government and/or Presidential Records, or of any documents with classification markings.
However, if I don’t tell you what the charges are, you can’t necessarily claim (e.g.) spousal privilege or 3rd party ownership.
Why not? How do the privileges depend on the specific charges?
This isn't new territory. This kind of thing happens all the time, and there are rules covering it. Trump is being treated extremely deferentially under those rules. No one else would've gotten a Special Master.
Sullum, you are so broken man. TDS is rotting your brain.
"...TDS is rotting your brain..."
Too late, past tense.
Who the f*ck cares? This is a standard no previous president has been held to. Former presidents frequently deal with classified issues. But with Trump, the establishment wanted him gone and exiled. And by weighing the finer points of this case, Reason is already acquiescing to the weaponization against political opponents of the legal system by Democrats.
What other President claimed to be able to telepathically declassify documents?
The issue has never come up because never before have we sent armed goons to retrieve the moving boxes of ex-presidents.
There has never before been a need.
How many top secret documents do you think Dubbya has in his garage at Prairie Chapel? Think any of Obama's many villas contain some empty "sensitive compartmentalized information" folders in the study? Does anyone seriously believe Mike Pence took anything from the White House at all?
Obama has a warehouse full of documents in Chicago. Some of which are explicitly classified.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-obama-million-documents-929954890662
NARA has them, not Obama.
After Obama paid them to register his warehouse.
Little bit of an omission there.
Again, the main issue is the double standard. Obama took a warehouse full of documents, and the Archive discussed this and accepted that he could pay them to officially hold the documents in his warehouse.
Trump took a van full and they sicked the FBI on him, claiming that disputing things legally was obstruction of justice.
And prior to that Obama was storing them illegally.
Yet no armed raids.
Go figure.
I guess you can choose to take at his word the unhinged conspiracy theories and legal nonsense of a late night TV con man who has made a well documented five decade career out of constantly lying to absolutely everyone about everything all the time or accept that the sometimes crooked cops who have actual evidence might have a real case in this instance.
Your choice, but I suspect you're afraid of the latter because it would mean admitting (to yourself, in private, in that dark period where you close your eyes before falling asleep) you've been taken for a fool, that the epic battle between good and evil is really an epic battle between lifelong democrat and Clinton pal and his own sloppy modus operandi to which he has always adhered finally biting him in his own stupid ass now that he's no longer able to abuse the highest office of the country to protect himself.
The Democratic sharks are circling because he's running the Republican movement, that can't be denied. But that stupid orange clown has spent six years actively choosing to sell off his shark cages and jump into the water with a bucket of chum.
Obama is covering the costs. He never took any documents. NARA had them the whole time. It's NARA's warehouse.
Trump had a bazillion opportunities to give the documents back (or who knows, convert his basement into a NARA facility). Instead he lied about a grand jury subpoena. Who lies to a grand jury? Trump.
Keeping documents from NARA is not a crime.
Depends on the document.
Obama took many boxes of classified materials with him. We have no idea what happened to them. I'm sure he has held on to some.
I'm sure the GSA packed up his stuff just like they packed up Trump's stuff.
Obama took many boxes of classified materials with him. We have no idea what happened to them. I’m sure he has held on to some.
Simple lie.
Libertarians in favor of the presumption of classification?
Lol at expecting libertarian opinions from Reason.
What is the libertarian argument for believing a something is what it is labeled to be when no evidence otherwise has been presented? How is that even an issue where liberty or the lack thereof is relevant?
That isn’t vague at all.
I'm okay with presuming that documents that say "TOP SECRET/SCI" in big bold letters on the front with a fancy colored border may, in fact, be classified.
May?
You don't charge people when the best you got is a maybe. Burden of proof, not burden to prove innocence.
How much more red handed could one possibly get caught? If you saw Donald Trump holding a smoking gun and standing over a dead body full of gunshot wounds would you not consider it a fair assumption that he might have been involved in a crime?
Remember what the left, dems and some MSM declared on election night 2016, Trump is "guilty" of something and should be impeached. With hints at going after him criminally, heard in the following days, weeks, months and years. It was pretty clear that it was only a matter of what they could come up with. (which as we've seen, is anything that they and the media could possible construe)
At this point i'm ready to call everything here illegitimate. Just as evidence from an illegal search, and sometimes even unrelated from a legal one, can't be used against someone. This whole thing is screaming illegitimate and corrupt.
Cling to Dear Leader till the bitter end!
So you ARE sticking by Biden?
Oh, goody! The TDS-addled pile of shit Sullum gets to whine again.
Stuff it up your ass, you pathetic asshole; fuck off and die.
If classification marking is a non issue and the charges against Trump are (1) he failed to store or protect documents properly and (2) obstruction of justice, the DOJ (I assume) had to convince the judge that these docs were in imminent danger since Trump did such a crap job storing them, or that Trump knowingly altered these docs or intended to give them enemies of state.
Is that what happened? Government personnel moved these documents to Mar a Lago and secured them at SCIF. The feds recommended that Trump use a better lock. So they had some inkling on how they were handled. What is the evidence that Trump mishandled them to a degree that a federal raid was warranted?
I'm going to take obstruction of justice charges even less seriously. The notion that Trump tried to use these docs in some criminal manner is lefty wishful thinking and an extension of the Russia Probe. It's going to be the hardest charge to prove.
I don't really buy that classification status is a non issue. I think the DOJ knows they can't possibly convict Trump on the primary charges. They probably shouldn't have even gotten a warrant on those grounds. Their best case is proving that Trump kept classified documents. The other charges were just a backdoor way to gain access to those docs.
The fact Trump took them with him would be evidence he declassified them.
OK, why haven’t Trump’s lawyers made that argument?
Because Donald J. Trump V.S.G., knows more about the law then those second rate, small time, very dumb people. No one believes what they say anyway. He has other lawyers, really terrific lawyers, the best, first rate guys, who everyone knows are the most brilliant legal minds and they say that the President can do whatever he wants, retroactively and telepathically if he feels like or even if its just convenient for him but he didn't think about it, and besides, he's the real president anyway and as soon as he is immediately restored to the presidency he's really going to drain the swamp for good and lock up Hillary Clinton and Beau Biden's Laptop and Vladimir Putin, who is a very good friend, and the whole Deep State that has cruelly rigged the game against him.
So, I can't reveal the explicit contents of the classified documents, but in addition to walking out of the WH with nuclear secrets that Trump may or may not have shared with foreign adversaries, I have further classified documents showing that other government officials leaked vital information and even gave funding to the Chinese to develop a bioweapon that could kill millions of people around the world.
We should arrest, tar and feather, hang, disembowel, behead, and draw and quarter everyone involved for that.
Guilty until proven innocent must be the new standard. Perhaps I'm just being alarmist and should have said "Guilty until proven innocent must be the new standard for half the country".
Guilty of what? No charges have been made against Trump.
He took them as President, therefore they were declassifed. That is the proof.
Also isn't the burden of proof on the state? This is getting dumber by the minute.
He took them as President, therefore they were declassifed. That is the proof.
Er, nope. Do you really believe such bullshit or do you merely feel the need to defend Dear Leader?
The special master, whom Trump asked for, doesn’t agree with you. He says that the documents are marked classified, therefore they must be classified since there has been no evidence provided by Trump’s layers arguing otherwise.
Also, Trump’s own lawyers have not made the argument you just made. Why do you think they haven't, if it is as simple as you say.
This seems illegitimate to me... Oh well, thanks for keeping us posted.
I'm more of an innocent until proven guilty kind of person.
The onus is not on the one holding the document.
Though Trump’s lawyers had requested the appointment of a special master to ensure an independent review of the documents, they have resisted Dearie’s request for more information about whether the seized records had been previously declassified — as Trump has maintained. His lawyers have consistently stopped short of that claim, even as they have asserted that a president has absolute authority to declassify information. They said in a separate filing Tuesday that the Justice Department had not proven that the records remained classified.
https://worldabcnews.com/review-of-seized-mar-a-lago-documents-should-go-quickly-arbiter-says/
Well. They haven’t.