Trump's Lawyers Say It's Not Clear Whether 'Purported' Classified Documents at Mar-a-Lago 'Remain Classified'
The former president's legal team notably did not endorse his claim that he automatically declassified everything he took with him.

The Justice Department says more than 100 documents that the FBI seized during its August 8 search of Mar-a-Lago, former President Donald Trump's home and private club in Palm Beach, were marked as classified. Notwithstanding those markings, Trump insists, none of the records were actually classified, because he had a "standing order" as president that automatically declassified documents he removed from the Oval Office to study at his residence in the White House. "The very fact that these documents were present at Mar-a-Lago," he said four days after the search, "means they couldn't have been classified."
In a brief they filed today in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida, Trump's lawyers notably do not endorse that argument. But they do claim that the status of the "purported 'classified records'" seized by the FBI is a matter of dispute. "The Government has not proven these records remain classified," they say. "That issue is to be determined later."
Trump and the Justice Department are wrangling over the terms of an order that U.S. District Judge Aileen M. Cannon issued last week. Cannon agreed with Trump that a neutral arbiter known as a "special master" should be appointed to review all the material seized at Mar-a-Lago. The special master is supposed to determine which documents might be protected by attorney-client privilege or, more controversially, executive privilege. In the meantime, Cannon said, the FBI may not use the documents to investigate whether Trump or his representatives committed federal felonies by improperly retaining and concealing the records.
Cannon's order allows intelligence agencies to continue a review aimed at determining whether and to what extent Trump's retention of the documents compromised national security. But in a motion filed last Thursday, federal prosecutors argued that her order would interfere with that process, which "cannot be readily segregated" from the criminal investigation. They asked Cannon for a partial stay allowing the FBI to continue examining the documents marked as classified, which represent a small subset of some 13,000 items removed from Mar-a-Lago. Failing that, they said, the government "intends to seek relief" from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit.
Responding to that motion today, Trump lawyers Christopher Kise, Lindsey Halligan, Evan Corcoran, and James Trusty say the government's concerns "appear exaggerated." They distinguish between the intelligence review, which seeks to determine "potential damage to national security from allegedly mishandling classified information," and the FBI's probe, which focuses on "criminal repercussions for allegedly mishandling classified information." They argue that the former can proceed even if the latter is suspended.
At the same time, Kise et al. question the premise underlying both processes. "The Government's stance assumes that if a document has a classification marking, it remains classified irrespective of any actions taken during President Trump's term in office," they say. "The Government claims this Court cannot enjoin use of the documents the Government has determined are classified. Therefore, the argument goes, as President Trump has no right to have the documents returned to him—because the Government has unilaterally determined they are classified—the Government should be permitted to continue to use them, in conjunction with the intelligence communities, to build criminal case against him. However, there still remains a disagreement as to the classification status of the documents."
That stance marks a shift from the position that Corcoran took in a May 25 letter to Jay Bratt, chief of the Counterintelligence and Export Control Section in the Justice Department's National Security Division. At that point, Corcoran was referring to documents "purportedly marked as classified." Now he admits the documents were in fact "marked as classified" while remaining agnostic about the significance of those labels.
Kise et al. note that "the President enjoys absolute authority…to declassify any information," and "there is no legitimate contention that the Chief Executive's
declassification of documents requires approval of bureaucratic components of the
executive branch." But unlike Trump, his lawyers do not claim he used that authority to declassify everything he took with him when he left the White House. Trump has presented no documentation of the "standing order" he supposedly issued, which was news to national security officials who should have known about it.
The documents marked as classified, which ranged from "confidential" to "top secret," included "sensitive compartmented information" on subjects such as human intelligence sources. Last week The Washington Post, citing "people familiar with the matter," reported that the records included information about a foreign nation's nuclear capabilities. The Post added that "some of the seized documents detail top-secret U.S. operations so closely guarded that many senior national security officials are kept in the dark about them."
By Trump's account, he nevertheless decided that the documents were not sensitive enough to keep them classified. Yet the automatic declassification he describes did not hinge on whether exposing the information would jeopardize national security. According to Trump, it applied to anything he happened to remove from the Oval Office. It also clearly did not entail changing the labels on the documents so that government employees would know how to handle and store them.
William Barr, Trump's former attorney general, thinks it is "highly improbable" that Trump had such a policy. But if he did, Barr told Fox News, it would have been remarkably careless: "If in fact he sort of stood over scores of boxes, not really knowing what was in them, and said, 'I hereby declassify everything in here,' that would be such an abuse and show such recklessness that it's almost worse than taking the documents."
Trump's lawyers do not even mention his purported "standing order," let alone delve into its implications. But as they see it, the FBI's investigation "at its core is a document storage dispute that has spiraled out of control." Instead of simply seeking to ensure that the "purported 'classified records'" were properly secured, they complain, "the Government wrongfully seeks to criminalize the possession by the 45th President of his own Presidential and personal records."
That gloss elides a couple of important points. Under federal law, those presidential records, classified or not, were not "his own." Contrary to what Trump seemed to think, they belonged in the National Archives. For a year and a half, Trump resisted efforts to recover the documents. He gave 15 boxes, including 184 documents marked as classified, to the National Archives in January, a year after leaving office. Last June, Corcoran and Christina Bobb, another Trump lawyer, handed over an additional 38 classified documents in response to a federal subpoena, at which point they assured the Justice Department that no more remained at Mar-a-Lago. Yet the FBI discovered more than 100 during its search.
In Krise et al.'s telling, that was no big deal. "There is no indication any purported 'classified records' were disclosed to anyone," they say. "Indeed, it appears such 'classified records,' along with the other seized materials, were principally located in storage boxes in a locked room at Mar-a-Lago, a secure, controlled access compound utilized regularly to conduct the official business of the United States during the Trump Presidency, which to this day is monitored by the United States Secret Service."
Unlike Trump, who still insists that he actually won reelection in 2020, his lawyers at least concede that his presidency ended in January 2021. But they seem to be implying that he retained some prerogatives of that office, including the authority to keep "purported 'classified records'" at the resort where he used to conduct presidential business.
Back in May, Corcoran told Bratt that documents "purportedly marked as classified" were "once in the White House and unknowingly included among the boxes brought to Mar-a-Lago by the movers." That description hardly inspires confidence about Trump's care in handling sensitive information. Nor does it seem consistent with his claim that he deliberately declassified everything. How can that be true if he did not even realize what was in the boxes, which included material that was "unknowingly" moved to Mar-a-Lago? And if there was nothing wrong with keeping the records, in what sense was taking them a mistake?
Although the documents were "principally located" in "a locked room at Mar-a-Lago," the FBI reportedly was alarmed by security camera video showing people removing material from that room. According to the Justice Department, the FBI's search discovered dozens of records with classification markings in other locations, including desk drawers and "a container" in Trump's office. The Post notes that the FBI also found "dozens of empty folders marked classified."
Those details suggest that the concerns underlying what Kise et al. describe as a "document storage dispute" may have been perfectly reasonable. That does not necessarily mean the threat to national security was grave and imminent enough to justify the unprecedented and politically explosive decision to search a former president's home. The intelligence review may or may not substantiate that claim. But based on what we know so far, the government's fears do not seem frivolous.
Despite Trump's focus on the issue, the three possible crimes cited in the FBI's search warrant do not hinge on whether the documents were still classified. The obstruction statute covers conduct aimed at interfering with a federal investigation. The law dealing with improper retention of government documents applies to unclassified as well as classified material. Even the Espionage Act provision cited by the FBI does not mention classification, referring instead to "defense information" that "could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation."
If the Justice Department decided to prosecute Trump on any of those charges, it might have trouble proving the requisite intent. But even if Trump's conduct can plausibly be attributed to some combination of ignorance, arrogance, laziness, and sloppiness, it should give pause to Republicans who were still inclined to support him.
Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
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Good thing we have nothing else to worry about.
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BLM protests from three years ago, perhaps?
Riots?
Looting?
Occupying U.S Territory ?
Laying siege to the white house?
Attacking and injuring about 70 secret device agents?
The last 3 are real examples of insurrection.
Service agents
Trump will be arrested at some point. They'll invent a reason if they have to.
And the left will cheer because they will not question anything the press/Biden admin says.
It'll be worse than all of the Reason speculation.
More like you people will claim til the end of time he did nothing wrong no matter how many facts clearly state otherwise.
He's a criminal and a traitor. But I guess supporting that is easy for you guys.
Problem is that in an actual court case proof is required, something not needed in an impeachment or a Washington Post report. If Trump was actually in possession of documents that could expose spies or nuclear secrets, it is funny that the DoJ took three months to decide to get a warrant and a further three days for the FBI to serve it. Not much of a rush.
This will probably turn out like the Russia collusion probes - Schiff proving again he is full of, well, Schiff, and unfounded accusations playing out in the Post, NYT, and MSNBC.
I'm not a Trump supporter. But I can also recognize the persecution inflicted by the DoJ is a fishing expedition. You say he's a criminal and a traitor; but o far, after years of trying, they've come up with nothing. You can't reflect for one minute and question any of this? Or is the TDS too ingrained?
Neat thing about calling someone a criminal, we have an entire court system to prove it. Same thing with being a traitor, that's a criminal charge that is tried in court.
Has that happened yet? Or do you think "innocent until proven guilty" shouldn't apply?
Pretend he's Hillary Clinton.
Clinton had no declassification authority.
Nor did she have any stolen classified documents.
Neat thing about calling someone a criminal, we have an entire court system to prove it. Same thing with being a traitor, that's a criminal charge that is tried in court.
Calling an election "stolen" and that there was "massive fraud", which are also crimes, doesn't seem to need proof that holds up in a court system in Trump world.
Between that and the "Lock her up!" chants in 2016, Trump should count himself lucky that his own standards of evidence and due process aren't used against him.
There is a strong difference between starting a legal challenge and completing it. Trump was demanding investigations and presenting circumstantial evidence, which appeared strong enough to warrant follow-up. Add in numerous incidents of illegally changed election procedures, and I find shocking people weren't concerned about conspiracies.
Additionally, the evidence for Clinton being guilty on the documentation crimes was overwhelming, and the decided refusal to prosecute was open and public. It was beyond satire. A private person criticizing a public decision by a public official, especially when it's done for apparent political bias is the very definition of free speech.
"Trump was demanding investigations and presenting circumstantial evidence..."
"Was"? Past tense? He still is saying exactly the same thing even though there HAVE BEEN investigations.
I use to think trump was guilty of something, but seeing as he is the most watched and investigated person in the last century and nothing has been actionable, I was clearly wrong
Put the reply button to the right side of the page like the rest of the internet
You claim Clinton did nothing wrong.
They are practically frothing at the mouth at this point to get him, even more so than before I seems. Just looks at the speculation last night of him arriving in a plane in his *gasp* golf shoes and a polo shirt! This must mean he was called in to finally be arrested right?! They got him now!
I'll mourn for the country Trump and the Republican party have ruined. For no reason at all. A little money and sheer unfathomable stupidity.
We don't get our rocks off on seeing our enemies suffer like you people. He should go to prison because he's one of the worst criminals of human history.
name ithe specifuc charges, complete with the operative citations from the relative code, at least SOME major piece of evidence linking HIM to the particular crimes, the identity of the alledged victims, when where why and by what means were those specific crimes committed, and name the victime along with the specific evidence linking Trump tp the use of
Tony, soulless filth like you are the most evil and sadistic people to exist. It will be good when humans are safe from democrats.
Of that not the final straw, I hope it comes soon. The democrats have to go.
Independent here does not pause to support him....
"The very fact that these documents were present at Mar-a-Lago," he said four days after the search, "means they couldn't have been classified."
But they do claim that the status of the "purported 'classified records'" seized by the FBI is a matter of dispute. "The Government has not proven these records remain classified," they say. "That issue is to be determined later."
These statements appear to be saying the same thing, so...
It's amazing we have this traitor just walking around free as a bird. Any other person does this they're in prison before they can blink but with him it's just another day.
"this traitor "
Facts not in evidence.
Sending pallets of cash to Iran, then they turn around and literally spend it on attacking U.S. soldiers? Not a traitor, even though it's material aid to enemies of the United States.
Being accused of various crimes, none of which were ever proven? Traitor.
Truly, we live in the worst timeline.
Perhaps he's talking about biden
Look dude, we all saw Hunter's laptop. But you can't just arrest a sitting President. That is bad juju. Calm down. Biden will get his.
Did we all see Hunter's laptop? From the story we have a laptop that belonged to Hunter Biden that was shuffled around to people including Guiliani, before it was turned in to the FBI. Whatever is one it has been so compromised by the way it was handled and so is useless for evidence. Assuming you had a crime to start an indictment.
You went with this still?
Computer Dealer made copy of hard drive then turned lap top over to FBI. Just so simple and only fools deny this. E-mails on it confirmed by second parties. You are earning muting.
Even the new york times now admits it is real....
It didn't help the case, either, that the main witness saying that the "Big Guy" is Biden was invited to sit front and center as a guest of Trump at a Presidential debate.
TDS much?
What does Hunter Biden laptop have to do with TDS? Seems like a stretch.
Cough cough (Hillary)
You democrats are the traitors. None of you are capable of patriotism. You are not an American. You are a democrat. A territorial resident that must be removed from my country.
#TrumpDocuments is now officially the biggest scandal in the history of the universe. Orange Hitler somehow managed to avoid being imprisoned for his other earth-shattering scandals — colluding with Russia, running concentration camps, telling people to inject bleach, starting World War 3 by killing that Iranian guy — but this time I guarantee he'll be behind bars soon.
With that in mind, it's up to us Koch / Reason libertarians to make sure Liz Cheney defeats Ron DeSantis for the 2024 nomination.
#LizCheney2024
#PutTheNeoconsBackInCharge
His new name is Ron DeSatan
Last I looked it was the government's duty to prove every element of a crime beyond a reasonable doubt. So "unclear" is another way of saying "innocent".
But maybe Orange man bad has caused there to be special rules or something.
Double secret probation.
Nuclear or Unclear? They don’t seem to know the difference from atom! Here I am, waiting for an explosive scandal, and they’re bombing it!
I heard atom had to split.
I have to agree. This is classic legal underspeaking. When you have the law and the facts on your side, you don't have to declare anything loudly. Quietly say as little as possible to force your opponents to commit to something and then rebut it in a single swipe.
Pounding on the table is an act of desperation.
They asked Cannon for a partial stay allowing the FBI to continue examining the documents marked as classified, which represent a small subset of some 13,000 items removed from Mar-a-Lago. Failing that, they said, the government "intends to seek relief" from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit.
I like how sullum casually pushes this aside without comment. More knowingly private documents such as tax and Healthcare were taken than classified documents. Or a general warrant. No comment sullum?
Trump has presented no documentation of the "standing order" he supposedly issued, which was news to national security officials who should have known about it.
Because it isnt required. Egan vs Navy 1988.
That case is about security clearances, not documents.
That case explicitly states where classification authority is vested dumbass.
Is Molly really this ignorant? Or just lying? It’s so hard to tell at times.
And btw, the clinton case about his tapes further expounds on the facts of the case.
Swing and a miss champ.
The documents marked as classified, which ranged from "confidential" to "top secret," included "sensitive compartmented information" on subjects such as human intelligence sources.
All claims made against the release of Crossfire Hurricane documents. Also claims made against the Nunes memo that exposed the FISA violations. Where once released showed the FBI over classified to hide the revelations.
^ this is what it is all about.
The obstruction statute covers conduct aimed at interfering with a federal investigation. The law dealing with improper retention of government documents applies to unclassified as well as classified material. Even the Espionage Act provision cited by the FBI does not mention classification, referring instead to "defense information" that "could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation."
Libertarians for process crimes and novel use of laws to go after people?
How is compromising the national security of the world's foremost nuclear power a "process crime"?
You can start with the fact that national security has not been compromised.
How was it compromised? Was having those paper documents, secured per FBI instructions months ago, less secure than Hillary maintaining a home brew server with thousands of classified documents accessible by internet? Or less secure than Anthony Weiner’s laptop (the one he used when masturbating on Skype with underage girls) that also had thousand of Hillary’s classified documents?
Please explain.
It's amazing how the brain can rationalize.
legal team pounces!
Maybe it's time for Trump to stop using Jacoby and Myers for his legal support.
was T stationed at Camp Lejeune any time between 1957 and 1988?
Maybe he can still sue someone for his bone spurs.
I dunno the FBI is using miss cleo as an informant
As I have noted before I think that the former President will push the situation to the point that an indictment is inevitable. The archives want the documents back, Trump did not do that, and the document were removed with a warrant. Again, the former President could simply accept this fact, but he will fight the point to where an indictment is called for. The man has never suffered the consequences of his actions and that may change late in his life.
From above , you are a dumbass.
Gray box now. No more moderation4ever dumbassery.
NARA is a civil not criminal law dipshit.
What you're saying is outright insane. How is Trump "fighting" the decision of the FBI and Archives? He's attempting litigate the matter in court. And you're saying that merits a criminal indictment. In effect, you're advocating the outright criminalization of pursuing legal redress. That goes beyond even process crimes to outright totalitarian sociopathy.
What I am suggesting is that Trump has no legal standing, the documents belong to the American people and not him. This matter could have been settled between him and the Nation Achieves. Instead, the NA is frustrated and brings in the DOJ. Now we know that not only did the former President have documents, but he had classified documents. You see where this is going. A good attorney would tell his client to work with the DOJ and NA and a good client would take that advice. I however think that if past is prologue, Trump will keep pushing till DOJ feel that an indictment is needed.
Have any of you bothered to read NARA? It doesn't extend to every copy of a document ever made.
NARA is an agency not a document. The fact is that the NA made a request for documents that the former President took to be returned and they were not returned. If you have ever worked in an office with document control, and most offices have this, you know that there are procedures for handling, store, and destroying documents. The NA has the responsibility for this task and the former President should have worked with them instead of doing what he wanted.
What your saying is that you should crawl in a bath tub and slit your wrists
No evidence yet that Trump had classified documents. What he had were documents that were, at some point in the past, classified. But that doesn’t mean that they were classified when Trump designated them to be removed from the WH for transportation to MAL.
How could that happen? Because he had plenary declassification authority during his entire term in office. That means that if he ordered them declassified, they were declassified. Period. Like the binder of RussiaGate/Crossfire Hurricane documents he formally ordered (WH letterhead, personal signature, photographed, etc) declassified his last full day in office. But he can likely make the argument that anything he ordered removed to MAL was declassified by implication.
That is what the DOJ is trying to finesse right now - that they very likely cannot prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he removed a single document marked classified that still is classified - unless Biden reclassified it, and that, in itself, would be a major scandal. They are trying to finesse it by deliberately confusing documents marked as classified with classified documents. But the courts cannot presume that documents marked classified in the hands of the former plenary declassifier are still classified.
And, of course, if the documents aren’t classified, the charge of stealing government property also evaporates - because he merely has copies of once classified documents, and not the originals. The federal government probably creates hundreds of millions of pages of copied documents a year, and the chances of every one having been properly disposed of is negligible. I know that, if the statute of limitations hadn’t run out long ago, I no doubt improperly destroyed plenty of copies of federal government documents when I worked there some 40 years ago.
o evidence yet that Trump had classified documents. What he had were documents that were, at some point in the past, classified. But that doesn’t mean that they were classified when Trump designated them to be removed from the WH for transportation to MAL.
Anything with a classified marking on it is unquestionably a government document that he had no business taking home.
And, of course, if the documents aren’t classified, the charge of stealing government property also evaporates - because he merely has copies of once classified documents, and not the originals.
A flimsy excuse at best. Former presidents can request to have copies of government documents after they leave office, but they don't get to just take whatever they want when they leave if it is a 'copy'. Besides, copies of official government documents made by government officials are still government documents. Unless you are saying that he made or obtained those copies after he left office, that doesn't help him.
"Anything with a classified marking on it is unquestionably a government document that he had no business taking home."
You're just presuming the conclusion. Classified marks don't magically evaporate when the document is declassified, and he'd have been legally entitled to take home copies of declassified documents.
But if you want to prosecute this sort of thing, there's a long line of people to indict, and Trump wouldn't be at the head of it.
How many government documents did the Lightbringer take with him when he left office?
None, Lucifer invented government documentation and bureaucracy sometime after the fall. Do you really think the DMV is sourced from heaven?
As noted in the column - not for the 1st time - Trump's attorneys d not make the claim that the stolen docs were declassified, because there are penalties for lying court or court motions.
Of course he didn't declassify them - there is no record of that and his NS Director for almost 2 years says he never heard that story.
As to whether what he has done is criminal, it doesn't matter if documents are classified, though he could be hit with other charges for that. If they are about official WH business they are not his docs and never were.
TDS much?
About as much as most of the rest of the country. All I ask of the former President is to go back to Mar-a-lago, play golf and keep quite.
Youre asking him to be arrested and tried...
As you have no doubt called for countless times for every nearest Democrat you could hurl a lie about.
No, he asking to be arrested. That would be great for donations don't you think? You would send him money right, to fight all the powers?
He was mostly doing that you fucking moron.
Not nearly enough for me. His time has passed and we don't need him.
We don't need you either.
I would say he has suffered far greater consequences for anything he has done versus Biden. Who sold his office as VP for years to China, Russia, Ukraine, or anyone else who would pay. Who raped one of his staffers, and also molested his own ten year old daughter in the shower.
What do you think of that?
Midterms are coming up fast. We need to pump up the Trump stories to make sure we keep this election a referendum on Trump rather than that other guy, What's-his-face.
Inflation still horrible.
Business from big to small all saying we are in a recession.
Nothing to see here, move along.
"Trump's Lawyers Say It's Not Clear Whether 'Purported' Classified Documents at Mar-a-Lago 'Remain Classified'
The former president's legal team notably did not endorse his claim that he automatically declassified everything he took with him."
Reason is doing a poor job of parsing legalese. They're not going to go out and lay all their cards on the table. By saying "it's not clear that the documents remain classified" Trump's team is reminding the judge and the prosecution that they have the burden of proof. This is a preliminary round of "ok, show me your actual evidence." How the DOJ responds will likely inform what Trump's team does going forward. Also, if you read the actual legal filing (check out the headings on pages 11 and 12) it's evident that Trump's lawyers are going to make the types of arguments Trump has been making on Twitter for the past month.
Trump's laywers literally said "The President had the power to declassify documents" and "There is no legitimate contention that the Chief Executive’s declassification of documents requires approval of bureaucratic components of the executive branch." The premise of Reason's article seems to be that Trump's lawyers aren't reciting the precise incantation Trump did on Twitter.
The premise of the article is that Jacob has a raging case of TDS and that the leftist that post here are fucking morons.
If so many people are so afflicted by one specific kind of derangement, perhaps it's to your due diligence to consider the possibility that Trump actually is as corrupt as he has regularly admitted to being throughout his life.
Or you might consider that having most of the people working in journalism being of one party has seriously distorting effects on our politics. Especially once they give up on the very idea of impartiality.
No Tony, over the last 2 decades leftists parrots like you have proven that you know nothing better than to stand around and jerk each other off.
No faggot, there never is any actual evidence. You just hate him. Meanwhile your party regular,y protects and coddles real traitors, rapists, and outright scumbags. And that’s just Joe Biden
One of the worst cases here at reason. He needs to stick with guns and drugs.
Anyone else heard that the President has the power to make government documents personal documents?
Why don't you run that question by Barack.
As before, "when Trump does it, it's not illegal".
Do any of you even believe Trump when he said that declassification was automatic? Or do you feel the urge to defend anything that your beloved leader says?
Also, I recall in a previous thread some of you Trumpsuckers insisting that the documents were perfectly safe at Maga Lago are they were in a room sealed by 3 metres of granite in all directions, with dragons guarding every exit, and wargs actually inside the storage room, which was locked by a padlock that only the Diamond Sword of Numenor could hew through. Or at least, something equivalent to that level of security. Sure doesn't seem like that...
I’d pose a simpler question - does the president have the authority to determine information’s classification? To me, that seems obvious. The alternative is that the bureaucracy has primacy over the duly elected head of the government. Then, we’re not even in a republic. But, if the president has that authority, then he can declassify material and take them with him.
That question has been asked and answered more than once and everyone here, and most commentators, agree that when Trump was president he had the absolute authority to declassify.
That is not and has never been the issues. The question is whether when Trump said recently that he had declassified the material - specifically, that there was a standing order to declassify material before it went to Maga Lago, he was telling the truth.
Most of the Trumpsuckers insist that Trump's making the claim is enough for them to believe that it's true. Those of us who did not fall off the turnip truck think that believing Trump in such matters - or indeed, at all - is utter folly. Certainly, no-one yet has come forward to corroborate this magical order. and there is good reason to suppose that no such order exists - else Trump would have made such a claim far earlier in the process.
Still, it doesn't matter because, aside from the security implications, about which the Trumpsuckers don't care - they would think that handing over secrets to Putin would be justified if it pissed off the libs - the retention of even declassified documents, while not as serious, is still unlawful. The Trumpsuckers' response to that is to pretend that it's a process crime.
"...Trumpsuckers.."
TDS-addled piles of lefty shit like SRG think this makes for clever repartee' instead of indicating a juvenile 'intellect.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
It is shrike.
I don't think "Trumpsucker" is clever. It is, however, accurate as far as it goes.
It's certainly no stupider or more infantile than your continued "fuck off and die, asshole", or your moronic position that anyone who disagrees with Cheeto Benito is a leftist.
I guess that fascist crackers like yourself and JesseAz find insult easier than argument.
TDS-addled shitpiles like you who are stupid enough to imagine that trumpsuckers constitutes an 'argument' get more than you deserve:
Eat shit and die, asshole.
Calling put your sock isnt insulting you. Unless you agree being correctly identified is insulting you pedo.
Do you know how the Justice system works shrike? It is on the prosecution to prove guilt. They haven't even proven the documents in question weren't just the CH documents which were absolutely declassified per order.
But you're such an IC dick sucking shit you'd rather convict someone you despise without evidence.
I know how the system works. If someone makes an assertion without evidence in support of their innocence, the evidentiary value is low.
Also the sundry records acts don't require documents to be classified for their retention to be unlawful.
Lol. Again your assertion is the positive action is on the defense, not the prosecution.
Youre such an authoritarian shrike.
Nah, not an authoritarian, either.
When the prosecution provides something which is prima facie evidence - in this case, documents marked classified or whatever - the defence has to present at least some evidence beyond "he didn't do it". If someone's caught in possession of stolen goods, do you really think that a defence consisting of, "I didn't do it" will succeed?
i'll give you this - your ignorance is robust.
'I know how the system works. If someone makes an assertion without evidence in support of their innocence, the evidentiary value is low.'
Deep understanding there. For a TDS-addled shit with an infantile intelligence...
Normally, a bald-faced assertion without supporting evidence would be weak. However, given the power claimed, which he did have, and the timing, which absolutely was when he did have the power, and the fact that there is precedent that no documentation, notification, or process was required or limited his authority to declassify whatever he wanted, I really don't see a counterpoint.
This literally is a case of when the president does it, it's not illegal because it's directly in his power to do it. So their defense is "this is within his authority to do this", and their support is the plethora of cases that the others shared.
There defense is "he did it over a year and a half before telling anyone, despite multiple instances where it would have been relevant to mention it, and you should totally take our word for it, it's not like we've repeatedly lied to you on this same matter already".
And that's besides the fact because, as you keep ignoring, the relevant laws don't depend on classification.
Former President Trump had four Chiefs of staff in his four years and to my knowledge not one of them has said that this standing order to declassify materials existed.
While the bureaucracy cannot override a President's ability to declassify, they could withhold any information they felt too sensitive for him to have and do so. It would be as simple as the cabinet secretary saying, "that doesn't need to go to the President".
Presidents have final authority on classification. You just don’t like that it applies to Trump.
No, he doesn't and can't. The official docs belong to the people, not him, and that's what makes us a republic, not a dictatorship.
Agreed, that is the purpose of the Presidential records act.
He can. But there is no evidence that he DID.
Furthermore, if he did de-classify top secret documents that was an incredibly irresponsible thing to do, because it would mean that the nuclear and other secret documents are now accessible through FOIA. That would be worse, in many ways, than his having taken classified documents to his home.
How do you know they’re even sensitive? A lot of classified material is out in the public domain.
Well, no.
Even if you grant he could wave his hand over the boxes of documents (which Trump and his lawyers have variously claimed they didn't even know what was in them) and declassify every one of those documents, that still doesn't make them his property that he had a right to take.
And second, even if you grant he could and did wave his hand over the mystery boxes and declare that he declassified everything in them, he didn't actually tell anyone he had done so, including in the many times he talked to NARA and the FBI prior to the raid. Which is to say... there was no way short of telepathy for the FBI to know that he had declassified the docs. And seeing as we have no reason to believe telepathy exists, that means that it was 100% reasonable for the FBI to think the documents were still classified.
Man shrike. You keep letting the mask slip on your socks.
You really are a fucking idiot to think I am or would bother with a sock. Or maybe you're just some cunt who thinks that the equivalent of drunken heckling makes for equivalence in argument.
You really are a TDS-addled steaming pile of ignorant lefty shit.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
You yell about me insulting you above shrike. Yet here you are.
Sorry you dont have any understanding of facts or process. Youre an authoritarian shit shrike. No matter which sock you try.
I don't yell about your insulting me. You do of course insult me as you and Sevo have from the time I started posting. It frees me up to describe you as nativist slime, fascist scum or any other insult that doesn't require more than a modicum of effort as neither of you cunts are worth it.
It might have to do with your pedophilia.
The TDS-addled shit Sullum thinks they'll get him this time for not signing on pg. 31.
Are we supposed to just gloss over the fact that the FBI had live access to video surveillance inside Mar-a-Lago? How secure are the cameras protecting your home? Are your cameras accessible on public IPs? Are the recordings stored on someone else’s cloud or accessible over a bridged connection?
Are we supposed to just gloss over the fact that the FBI had live access to video surveillance inside Mar-a-Lago?
Uh, I'm pretty sure that the FBI had gotten a subpoena to view that security footage. They didn't have "live access".
I believe that is the case.
As Trump's stooge of an attorney general put it, if Trump did declassify all these top secret documents, that would be a worse thing than stealing them, as it would show gross negligence with respect to US national security to declassify those things.
But as many have said to endless deaf ears, whether he waved a magic wand and declassified the documents isn't relevant to his violating the Espionage Act.
The fact that he obviously and provably didn't declassify shit he can be prosecuted under one of the laws he signed as a political stunt concerning Hillary Clinton.
We really don’t know what the stack of documents marked classified actually contains. Some, maybe many, of them could very well be in the binder of RussiaGate/Crossfire Hurricane documents formally ordered declassified by Trump his last full day in office. We know why he formally declassified them - because he had been trying to declassify them through proper channels for most of the previous two years, and the bureaucracy was fighting back, tooth and nail, disregarding his intentions. Regardless of their excuses, he believed that the bureaucrats weren’t declassifying them in order to protect the bureaucracy from accountability for their perfidy and malfeasance in the RussiaGate attacks by them on him. That they still haven’t, apparently (based on FOIA requests), been officially declassified, is strongly suggestive that the reason that they were classified in the first place, and not declassified, despite his wishes, was just that - that the bureaucrats at the DOJ and FBI were using classification to cover up their perfidy and malfeasance.
You are attributing a degree of thought and organization to the storage of these documents that just isn't in evidence here. Every indication that we have is that documents marked with the highest levels of classification and sensitivity were tossed in these boxes with things like mementos and magazines. The whole argument from the Trump side that they need a special master to decide what belongs to the government and what doesn't is just further proof of how careless all of these things were stored. Would you think it reasonable to keep even formerly Top Secret documents in the same box in the same closet as your National Geographic collection, while also having other such documents in a desk drawer that you keep a "love letter" from a former adversary?
But if they were declassified, then why not?
Declassification is a process. There's no evidence that process was ever undertaken or even ordered. Donald Trump is not currently the president of the United States and currently has no power to declassify anything. He hasn't had that power since January 20th, 2020. In any ordinary circumstances, someone saying "Oh, I totally did that at the time" would be completely unacceptable, but we're talking about a man with a serial problem with the truth. Why anyone would take Donald Trump at his word, on any matter let alone national security or hell just following any kind of procedure, sans evidence, is completely incomprehensible.
Indeed n00!
If Trump knew what the docs in question were and had actually formally declassified them, then he's an idiot for not just saying that months ago. And for paying his lawyers to cycle through thirteen excuses over the past month.
I mean, if he had an actual true explanation that was ironclad, why play so coy?
What we actually learn here:
The FBI is indeed "conducting this investigation by leak", despite what Garland had to say on that topic.
Barr was what we suspected, an institution man who was going to protect the institution. This is why nothing ever happened with the conspiracy by Obama administration officials, despite what we learned from discovery on criminal cases and open records acts seemingly being plenty to build a case.
The fact that they are using the same people from Crossfire Hurricane means they are very likely not conducting an "investigation" of any sort, just as they were not conducting an "investigation" last time around. If they even had the tiniest bit if integrity and were even slightly concerned about conducting a real investigation, they would have used the appropriate teams from the appropriate locations with the correct expertise. Using a team that is known to be willing to conduct politically motivated frame-ups seriously undermines their credibility.
"Barr was what we suspected, an institution man who was going to protect the institution."
That is of course the case and we saw this when he blunted the Mueller Report to protect then President Trump. We also saw this when he was unwilling to call election fraud to satisfy Trump, because it was not in the interest of the Presidency. So he again he will not protect Trump because that is not in the Presidency's interest only in Trump's interest.
Cultist posters here, who will flock to Trump's defense no matter how stupid - and worse - his actions are, clearly demonstrate for the rest of us what the end of democracy could look like. The Man is all that counts and whatever he does is must be defended. It's not an accident that Trump aspired to be like Putin (or Kim Il Jong) and that Putin put his government behind efforts to advance his candidacy, just like he has all the right wing "populist" candidates across Europe. They could end democracy and western liberalism, just as Putin has done in Russia, not that it had gained much of a foothold there.
How do educated people living in a country free for centuries fall for a cult like this, based on an almost sub-human character lacking all principles save his own advancement, and including huge flags with his name and posters of his head photoshopped on a buff shirtless figure firing an AR-15? Are you kidding me? No one has ever done that here before, and why would they?
This is disturbing stuff and the regulars here doing backflips trying to justify this latest violation of our laws and norms - they are his docs and he alone gets to decide that, despite the fact that no one has ever acted or thought that way before. This is the guy who refused - for the 1st time ever - the incoming administration access to ongoing information and process so they could hit the ground running on Jan 20. He refused - and still does - to admit he lost the election, a fact so plain and obvious that it takes a special kind of true believer to stick with him on that. An asshole who refused to show up at the inauguration of Biden and show his support for the continuation of our democracy, like EVERY OTHER EX-PRES HAS DONE FOR CENTURIES. Are these not obvious enough clues as to what we are dealing with here - a man who puts his self interest above the country's and millions of followers who back him up?
That's a cult, not a movement, and if you want democracy - call it a republic, whatever you want - to end, he's your guy.
Cultist democrats popping in to disrupt same discussions without providing any actual facts. Proving once again it would be prudent to put all Marxists to death.
Here’s a theory. First, that nothing is what it seems. The legal theories behind this whole escapade were developed by the LawFare Group, headed by Benjamin Whitte. They were the ones who developed the egregious misinterpretion of the Obstruction statute that allowed the FBI/DOJ/Mueller prosecutors to keep their investigation of Trump and his confederates open and secure for so long, and they are doing the same thing this time around too, with their Obstruction claims against Trump. As before, they are using opposition, alone, to their grossly political attacks on Trump as the basis for Obstruction. And, again, as was the case before, they have essentially read the intent and materiality requirements out of the Obstruction statute. Of course, the prosecutors are using the documents marked classified thrown together with other momentous to show gross negligence, for violation of the Espionage Act, even if Clinton storing actually classified documents on her private e-mail server wasn’t sufficiently egregious to qualify there as gross negligence - trying to finesse the question of whether the documents were still classified. If the documents weren’t/aren’t (remember, Trump had plenary declassification authority at the time he designated the documents to remove), then the whole edifice falls apart.
Similarly suspect is that the Biden WH revoked Trump’s Executive Privilege over documents from his Administration, then siced the Archives people on him to scoop up all those documents, meanwhile ordering that they share them with the FBI. They (ostensibly the Archives, but realistically the DOJ) are overriding the traditional wide discretion shown previous Presidents in determining what was a Presiddntial Record, and what was a memento.
It’s all sketchy as all heck, which means that it very likely won’t survive litigation. Too much can go wrong, and likely will. So, why are they doing it in the first place? There is a saying about trying to kill the king, and they aren’t going to succeed. Maybe if they could have gotten the case heard in DC, with its Dem sympathetic judiciary (remember Judge Sullivan refusing to dismiss the LawFare created Obstruction charges against Gen Flynn, after orders by the DOJ to dismiss, and then a Presidential pardon?) But if they had tried that, the whole thing would have been transferred back to the ED FL and 11th Circuit post haste.
So, here’s my theory. The cabal running the WH really doesn’t care about Biden’s legacy, Presidential Library, etc. He’s essentially senile at this point and usually not much more than a puppet. What they are worried about are the elections in less than two months. And if embarrassing Trump with this case helps them keep control of Congress, then these major breaches in comity between Presidents has been justified.
But the other thing is the ultimate disposition of the documents. And for that we need to look at what documents were the of the search. The Dem operatives running the WH want the decisional documents traditionally covered by Executive Privilege, and this may be why they signed onto this endeavor. But what’s driving it on the DOJ/FBI side? My theory is that it is primarily to get their hands on Trump’s copies of documents implicating their perfidy and malfeasance in their RussiaGate/Crossfire Hurricane/Mueller Investigation of Trump. We know that Trump ordered them declassified, because he believed that these agencies were keeping them classified for their own protection. They have their copies, they just don’t want Trump to have his. It’s his blackmail material on them, and they want it back. Note, in particular, how the DOJ is handling the Special Master issue - the place where they are squealing the loudest is whether they should be able to keep these documents regardless of whether they actually are still classified. They desperately don’t want the Special Master to be able to keep these documents from them, because, when the dust settles, they would go back to Trump. And, I think that you can see this, in their willingness to trade control over these documents for exclusion of many of the seized documents, as the fruits of the forbidden tree, during litigation. They know that the RussiaGate documents were declassified, and including them in the search warrant was an obvious subterfuge to get them. I detect possible panic with Judge Cannon possibly seeing through their subterfuge. We shall see.
If the Crossfire Hurricane documents really were incriminating, and Trump didn't make backup copies to store offsite, (Which he legally could do if they actually were declassified.) then he's an idiot.
Brett it is not up to the president to unilaterally make copies. They would have to be cleared with NARA.
The executive is bound by the actions of subordinates?
Yeah, that's not how it works.
The executive is bound by the laws of the republic. That's what defines us as one and not a dictatorship. Think about it.
Which law?
Bruce, so many words, so much bullshit.
No, no other president has sought to or achieved ferrying away official documents - classified or not - once out of office. Any documents not strictly personal from the WH do not belong to him and he has no right to them. NARA has tried for 17 months to get him to return whatever he took and he and his employees have strung them along, claiming they had when they hadn't. There is now video evidence that he might have shipped 8 or 9 boxes out of Mar A Lago to his NY home.
Why are you defending this asshole?
This is the question you should be answering. About Biden. But we know the answer, right comrade?
Jacob,
Trump's insistence that he won the election isn't new. We don't need to go back in time very far to find other examples. In Georgia, there is Stacey Abrams, nationally there is Hillary Clinton and Al Gore to name a few. They only difference is that Trump is very loud and the Corporate Media has Trump Derangement Syndrome.
The problem is rooted with how the Corporate Media reacts versus Trump's claims. The problem lies with the reactions of the Biden administration and the fairly obvious double standard being applied.
While I despise Trump and other loud-mouths, I abhor the Corporate Media and Democrat Politicians that are willing to blow up any semblance of fair play in their attempt to create one-party rule.
To me the Republican party are an ineffective nuisance, but the Democrat party is putting the country into a perilous territory. I see through the facade Democrat party to their manipulative rotten core. Typically what the cast as aspersions towards others are masks to advert self-reflection and hide their own very pronounced flaws.
The Republican party is bad, but the Democrat party is evil. A very poor choice is presented from these two parties every election cycle. Republican voters are maligned by the Corporate Media and the Democrat voters are lauded.
Knowing both, I feel that most Republican voters simply want to live their lives without interference by government or others, are typically family oriented and avoid rapid change. I don't feel that the majority of Republican voters hold evil intent and are typically good people.
Living in a blue state, I know numerous Democrat voters. I feel that most Democrat voters are obsessed with how other people perceive them. Most virtue signal with meaningless and unfruitful actions that are often insulting to the recipient. I believe that most Democrat voters know that much of what Democrat party proposes goes too far or is impractical, but are unwilling to vocalize opposition. I don't feel that the majority of Democrat voters hold evil intent and are typically good people.
As I said, I believe that the Republican party is bad, but the Democrat party is evil. My hope is that there is a movement towards third parties to bring some honesty into the discussion.
I may believe in some positions the Democrat party proposes and with some positions the Republican party proposes. I may only partially agree with either, but both parties as a whole are disgusting and for the most part present sorry excuses of candidates.
Trump may be a buffoon, but the Corporate Media are a bunch of clowns. The Biden administration is much worse that the Trump administration if for no other reason that because he was harangued by the Corporate Media versus the sycophantic coverage they utilize with Biden.
Bullshit. Hillary conceded the night of the 2016 election and showed up at Trump's inauguration. Gore was in an election - which like Hillary he won the popular vote - separated by 500 votes in a state run by Bush's brother and plenty of monkey business at the vote counts, as well as voters taken off the rolls by said GOP state administration. Once the SC awarded the election to Bush on a party line vote - big surprise - Gore made the speech below and oversaw vote counting in the senate where he personally shot down objections by a very few Democratic representatives.
https://www.c-span.org/video/?161263-1/al-gore-concession-speech
Trump has neither the character, patriotism, or balls to do any of that. He's a moral pig.
Hillary spent the night of the 2016 election getting drunk and violent,y destroying a whole room because IT WAS HER TURN. So stop lying bitch.
Correction: NJ home. That is where he was flying when he got on board the private jet which is seen in video being loaded with boxes of the same type found in MarALago.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1568635795682037765
Joe Biden is the real moral pig, but he's your moral pig and that's why you voted for the incontinent scumbag!
Sullum voted for Biden? He has publicly stated otherwise:
JACOB SULLUM
Senior Editor
Who do you plan to vote for this year? Texas has stringent requirements for absentee ballots, notwithstanding COVID-19, so I may not vote at all. But assuming I do, the choice is obvious: Jo Jorgensen. Given the odds, voting is best viewed as an expressive activity rather than an attempt to influence the outcome, and I have no interest in expressing whatever horrifying message would be implied by a vote for Trump or Biden (although I am morbidly curious to see what a second term for Trump would mean).
Didn't you get the message? A vote for a third party is as good as a vote for Biden! Or Trump! No one can really seem to agree on who I'm supporting by not voting for their preferred space reptile, but they're sure and shit it's going to hurt the lesser of the two evils in the end.
Yep
No case other then 100 stolen classified documents, which is clearly a crime.
I agree with 1st part, no arrest. But I don't think he'll be killed either.
I think they'll draw this out through the courts, 1. To harm his reputation 2. Drain his personal assets. Then settle out of court with a NDA enforced.
"If we can kill him, just imagine what we can do to you. Now get back in your hovel, and play nice."
This is exactly the point. The level of harassment on a former POTUS is a flex for the citizenry to witness. "We will fuck you over" is the very clear message.
Good job they've never done THAT before, eh? Oh wait........ they HAVE. Multiple times.
What is the current total of those who seem (very STRONGLY) to have been "arkancided"? Last I saw it was somewhere north of twenty five, so far, known.
It isnt just trump but everyone in his orbit. This isn't directed. Its intention is to scare people.
Oh, please. Trump could have avoided all of this Mar-a-Lago "harassment" by returning all of the documents promptly when asked.
Notarized membership cards.
"Its intention is to scare people."
Absolutely. The Red Speech going on about MAGA's was just the beginning of the intimidation. There'll arrests and eventually killings.
That explains the whole obsession with trains.
I'm sure Reason editors will be fine with expanding that to all Republicans because marxism is liberty to them.
Oh, go fuck yourself you dumb faggot.
Which, of course, is the question - were any of the documents marked as classified, still classified at the time that they were ordered removed by Trump from the WH?
But stuffing them down your pants isn't.
Nope. Now commit suicide.
POTUS is the ultimate classification authority, his power in that matter is plenary.
So, if POTUS ordered them removed from a secure environment, would that not be defacto declassification?
No. Removing from a secure environment doesn't declassify a document. Not even publishing in the NYT declassifies a document (though it's strong ground for declassification once it's in the public domain).
What declassifies a document is the person or persons with declassification authority saying the document is declassified - everything else is just paperwork.
What declassifies a document is the person or persons with declassification authority saying the document is declassified - everything else is just paperwork.
and since this WAS done, they ARE declassified. Trump has full authority over classification status of all documents, in or out of his possessioin. Or did at the ti=me these papers were moved to his own residence.
If HE SAYS he declassified ALL documements he was removing, or that were at Mar al Lago, then they ARE still declassified. WHY cannot the dweebs running this circus comprehend this simple fact? (hint: dey doan WANNA)
Don't forget these same poohbahs are the ones declaring that a pice of plastic iis a machine gun, that a certain aluminium shape with no moving or separate parts (its all one chunk) is a firearm. No holes anywhere. Buying one for fiddy bux must trigger an FFL sale, NICS check, ten day wait period in some states... for a stinking paperweight!! AND if I happen to decide to mutilate my very own rifle, let's say its a Ruger 10/.22, by cutting the barrel shorter (makes it easier to carry on my moto) and misread the tape measure and cut it one milimeter short of 18 inches, they will label me a felon, unless I bribe them by participating in the charade of mountains of paperwork, high fees, a year or more to even be able to have it, being on a "spayshull LIYUST" , or go to jail.
Nah, these guys must be from a different galaxy er sumpin'
Don't trust ANYTHING the Feds claim.
That's not how declassification works -- a president doesn't simply wave his magic wand. There is a bureaucratic process for declassification that includes, for example, formal notification of the original classifying agency, and there is no evidence that was done. And, of course, the article notes that Trump's lawyers have made no claim about Trump declassifying anything, since they no doubt know that such a claim would be false. Worse yet, as numerous commentators have pointed out, declassification serves specific purposes: it appears that, had Trump actually declassified many of the documents in question, he would have presented a more serious security risk, making his declassification worse than merely stealing the documents. Finally, the classification status of the documents is less relevant than you seem to think. The government's argument is that the documents belong to the Feds, not to Trump personally, and his removal of those documents to his home after he left office was, at the least, a form of theft, whatever the classification status of the documents. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
No doubt about it. I watched Bill Maher last week because Welch was on the panel. He was basically a sniveling democrat lite pathetically seeking approval of Maher and the other hugest, who was one of the usual far left kooks that power on that show.
Reason has no more libertarians on staff.