It's (Almost) Always the Feds: How the FBI Fabricates Schemes To Entrap Would-Be Radicals
The FBI's long history of using informants and manufactured plots to prosecute extremists

Here's a tip: If you have some radical political views and an acquaintance reaches out, encourages you to act on your convictions, and maybe offers to introduce you to a guy who can sell you some bomb parts, don't take him up on it. That guy's almost definitely working for the feds.
For the past two decades, the FBI and federal prosecutors have brought case after case against would-be radicals who were ratted out by informants. They have been enormously successful in obtaining convictions in these cases, despite persistent criticisms that the FBI uses unscrupulous informants, conjures up the very plots it disrupts, and entraps defendants who have little to no ability to actually carry out a terror attack.
It looked like the case against the Michigan militia members who allegedly plotted to kidnap Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer in October 2020 was going to be another data point in that trend: an extremist group riddled with FBI informants set up to take the fall for all their big talk. An unusual thing happened, though. The jury didn't buy it. When the verdicts were read a year and a half later in March, two of the militia members were acquitted, and the jury deadlocked on the other two.
In June, a federal judge ordered the two remaining defendants to stand again for a retrial, but the collapse of the prosecution of the Whitmer defendants is one of the biggest public embarrassments for the FBI's counterterrorism and informant programs since 9/11. The Whitmer case is more than just a high-profile embarrassment. It's a window into the FBI's decadeslong strategy, born of powers granted to fight the war on terror, of pursuing criminal investigations against hypothetical criminal acts that may never be committed based on evidence that amounts to little more than fringe political or ideological speech.
The FBI has typically portrayed these investigations as efforts to thwart domestic terror, but all too often, the result has been to encourage or invent plots that were unlikely to succeed. In the Whitmer case and others, the feds weren't stopping terror: They were helping bumbling defendants plan and enact it.
Michael German, a former FBI special agent and currently a fellow with the Brennan Center for Justice who worked undercover in the 1990s infiltrating white nationalist organizations and eventually resigned after filing whistleblower complaints, argues the change has been detrimental to the bureau's mission. "The targeting is based on what people say and think and who they associate with rather than evidence of criminality," he says. "It alters the focus of the investigation away from the individuals who are involved in criminal activity."
'A Plot To Kidnap a Sitting Governor'
The video is a mere 26 seconds long. In it, two men with long guns dressed in tactical gear pile out of a bright blue Chrysler PT Cruiser—yes, a PT Cruiser, a car more strongly associated with youth pastors than terrorists. The men shoulder their rifles and begin firing downrange at unseen targets. "Keep moving," the man filming from the back seat urges them. The footage, released by the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Western District of Michigan on October 16, 2020, along with a tranche of other records, was one of America's first looks at the would-be abductors of Whitmer.
A week earlier, the FBI and Michigan state officials announced the arrest of 13 men, half of them members of a militia group called the Wolverine Watchmen (presumably because one of Michigan's nicknames is the Wolverine State).
Six of the men—Barry Croft, Ty Garbin, Daniel Harris, Adam Fox, Brandon Caserta, and Kaleb Franks—were indicted by a federal grand jury for conspiracy to commit kidnapping. Eight others were eventually charged with providing material support to terrorism for aiding their plot.
"These alleged extremists undertook a plot to kidnap a sitting governor," FBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge Josh P. Hauxhurst said in a statement. "Whenever extremists move into the realm of actually planning violent acts, the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force stands ready to identify, disrupt and dismantle their operations, preventing them from following through on those plans."
The group cased Whitmer's summer cottage twice. They wanted to blow up a bridge near her home to slow down the police response. They built a mock structure to practice raids and were sourcing and testing bomb-making materials, prosecutors said in charging documents.
The arrests, announced a month before the 2020 election, played to fears about right-wing radicalization. "We wanted to cause as much a disruption as possible to prevent Joe Biden from getting into office," Garbin would later testify. Both Whitmer and then-presidential candidate Joe Biden blamed President Donald Trump for fomenting extremism.
Ideologically, the defendants fit into the loose "boogaloo" movement—pro–Second Amendment, anti-government, somewhat apocalyptic and nihilistic. "When the time comes there will be no need to try and strike fear through presence," Caserta texted in one conversation. "The fear will be manifested through bullets."
Text messages between the plotters show they were enraged by Michigan's COVID-19 lockdowns. "When's the lynching?" Fox texted the group when the Michigan Supreme Court struck down Whitmer's sweeping emergency orders in October 2020. "She should be arrested now, immediately. Who wants to roll out?"
They considered holding a show trial for the "tyrant" governor for treason after they kidnapped her. ("Treason is a hanging offense," Croft said in one recording.) Why stand on ceremony, though? Harris floated the idea of dressing up like a pizza delivery man and killing her when she opened the door.
"Just dome her. Shoot her in the head," Harris suggested at one point.
Two of the defendants, Garbin and Franks, pleaded guilty to the conspiracy charges and agreed to testify against the others at trial, a choice they may now very much regret. Garbin was sentenced to 75 months in prison. Franks is still awaiting sentencing.
'Don't Let the Facts Get in the Way of a Good Story'
After the initial media frenzy died down following the arrests, the actual details of the plot against Whitmer began to trickle out. The would-be abductors were as often inept as they were sinister.
BuzzFeed News revealed in a series of investigative stories that the FBI used no less than a dozen confidential informants and two undercover agents to gather intel on the group. "Working in secret, they did more than just passively observe and report on the actions of the suspects," the story noted. "Instead, they had a hand in nearly every aspect of the alleged plot, starting with its inception."
When the group took a nighttime road trip to surveil Whitmer's summer house, there were two informants and two undercover agents in the cars with them and multiple agents surveilling them, including an agent on Whitmer's boat dock.
The second-in-command of the Watchmen, Iraq war veteran Daniel "Big Dan" Chappel, started wearing a wire after militia members began casually talking about killing police officers.
Chappel said he joined the militia because he wanted to keep his military skills sharp, not become a guerrilla cop-killer. (This did not endear him to the others. "He's a bitch," Harris would later testify at trial about Big Dan, complaining that he was scared of memes the group shared.)
Fox, the alleged mastermind of the conspiracy to kidnap Whitmer, lived in the basement of a Grand Rapids, Michigan, vacuum shop. The other plotters called him "Captain Autism," and one said in court that his shooting skills "weren't top-notch."
There were problems with who was watching the Watchmen. One of the lead FBI agents working the case was charged in state court with assault for allegedly beating his wife after returning home from a swingers party at a hotel. He was subsequently fired from the FBI.
Another of the confidential informants was indicted on gun charges, and a local prosecutor was removed from the case while under investigation for actions in an unrelated case. The individual who raised the possibility of blowing up a bridge turned out to be an undercover FBI agent. Between the credibility issues and the unavoidable partisan tinge that had tainted the case, the FBI lost control of the narrative.
By the time the remaining four defendants stood trial in federal court on March 8, 2022, their defense lawyers had a workable, if unenviable, position to fight from. The voluminous amount of audiotapes and text messages collected by the FBI also contained the Watchmen arguing and disagreeing with the idea of kidnapping Whitmer, and they included one particularly helpful line from an FBI agent. "We have a saying in my office," the agent said in a December 10, 2020, conversation with one of the informants. "Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story."
In another instance, an FBI handler texted Big Dan: "Mission is to kill the governor specifically."
This was the crux of the defense's argument, that the FBI and their informants ginned up a conspiracy that never really existed beyond vague bull sessions and which the individual members of the group never agreed to carry out.
The violent fantasies were just "rough talk" from some guys who were stoned and drunk more often than not, defense lawyers said. They had no respect for Fox, the supposed leader, and they were too baked to even come up with a coherent plan. One iteration involved using stolen Black Hawk helicopters. Another required no less than three teams and several boats, possibly with the intention of leaving Whitmer adrift on Lake Michigan.
They did not have boats, much less air cavalry.
"There was no plan to kidnap the governor, and there was no agreement between these four men," Joshua Blanchard, Croft's lawyer, insisted in his closing arguments.
Still, federal prosecutors had an enormous advantage in the trial. They managed to exclude the full context of the defendants' most inflammatory comments from being entered into evidence, and the judge barred the defense from inquiring about misconduct by the FBI agents and their informants. The defense attorneys could only tell the jury that prosecutors weren't giving them the full picture.
In one sense, though, this was a gift to the defense. Without the full context or additional testimony, jurors and the public would be left to fill in the blanks with what they did know, or what they suspected, about how the FBI runs anti-terrorism stings.
'You Actually Had To Have Articulable Facts'
The sort of informant-led investigation that resulted in the arrests of the Wolverine Watchmen is largely due to the rollback of Watergate-era restrictions on the FBI following 9/11. The Whitmer case wasn't just a poorly conceived investigation; it was the direct result of a strategic internal policy change that allowed the FBI to begin targeting people who had done nothing illegal in order to prosecute the war on terror.
In 2002, Attorney General John Ashcroft amended the attorney general guidelines to expand the investigative techniques the FBI could use during preliminary inquiries.
In 2008, Attorney General Michael Mukasey again broadened the FBI's power to investigate people absent any evidence that they were involved in a crime, something that would have been illegal prior to 9/11. The new guidelines also specifically allowed the FBI to consider religious affiliation and ethnicity when selecting targets, although those couldn't be the sole criteria to justify threat assessments. The FBI argued that its manual forbade racial profiling, but if you were looking for young men with ties to the Somali extremist group al-Shabab, for example, Somali immigrant communities would be the natural place to start.
This made way for a substantial shift in agency strategy and tactics, argues Michael German, the former undercover agent. "You actually had to have articulable facts that provided a reasonable indication of criminal activity," German says of the pre-9/11 FBI.
The new rules reflected the national security apparatus' biggest fear: not organized terrorist cells embedded in the U.S. but individuals radicalized and recruited through the internet or other propaganda, the so-called lone wolves.
The concern was that one properly motivated lone wolf could kill hundreds, even thousands of people without the support of traditional terror networks.
Thus, the U.S. government embraced what became known as preemptive prosecutions: identifying, ensnaring, and convicting wannabe jihadists before they could carry out an attack for real.
German says the loosening of its rules and the FBI's embrace of this radicalization theory moved the bureau away from investigating actual crimes, particularly regarding white nationalists and neo-Nazis.
"We see these types of complex sting operations, and yet the FBI…can't tell you how many people white supremacists killed last year, because they don't even track these crimes," he says. Investigations proceed based on statements and associations, often of a fringe political nature, rather than evidence of crimes.
The other problem is the men who fit the profile and get onto the FBI's radar are often, to put it indelicately, losers: unemployed or marginally employed, sometimes still living with their parents. They have cartoonishly grand and violent ambitions but limited means to carry them out.
In the Whitmer case, for example, the defense argued that some of the alleged conspirators "lived in a dream world where they fantasized about being real-life combat operators." In this telling, the plots were essentially elaborate role-playing exercises.
'More Aspirational Than Operational'
One of the first examples of this preemptive prosecution strategy was the case of the Liberty City Seven, a group of men in Miami led by Narseal Batiste, who belonged to an offshoot of an obscure, syncretic black religious movement.
After an enterprising informant tipped off the FBI that a group of black radicals was hanging out in a Miami warehouse, the bureau put the informant on the group and lured Batiste into believing that he was in contact with a terrorist financier. The fake financier promised Batiste $50,000 in exchange for pledging a loyalty oath to Al Qaeda and surveilling some FBI field offices in Miami, which Batiste agreed to. The conversations between Batiste and the informant heavily suggested that Batiste was more interested in the money than carrying out jihad, and he wasn't above spinning some yarns to get it. (Batiste told the informant that he believed he could bomb Chicago's Willis Tower so that it would fall into Lake Michigan and generate a tsunami, creating additional devastation. The 1,450-foot skyscraper is about a mile from the lake.)
In a June 2006 press conference announcing the indictment of the Liberty City Seven defendants, an FBI deputy director admitted that the group's plot to unleash a wave of bombings and chaos in Miami and Chicago "was more aspirational than operational," but the U.S. government was determined not to get caught flat-footed by another terror attack, and that meant snuffing them out before they ever got past aspirations. If this meant believing that Batiste and the six men he hung out with in the warehouse of his insolvent construction company were going to blow up the Sears Tower unless they were stopped, so be it.
"The government need not wait until buildings come down or people get shot to prove people are terrorists," federal prosecutor Jacqueline Arango said in her closing arguments in the Liberty City Seven case.
The Liberty City Seven case was a mess. It took three trials to convict five of the seven defendants. But it was still proof of concept for the government's new strategy of using informant-led stings and preemptive prosecutions to root out radicals with violent leanings. The two informants who made the case possible were paid $40,000 and $80,000 for their work.
All the FBI needed to bring more cases like that were more informants.
'Worse Than a Mass Murderer'
The FBI has, of course, always relied on informants. But even during J. Edgar Hoover's paranoid reign, they were mostly limited to being eyes and ears.
This started to change in the 1980s as federal law enforcement got more involved in the drug war. The FBI began to allow informants to take a more active role in setting up stings. The bureau sometimes wasn't particular about who it used, either. Take the case of Richard Wershe Jr., more famously known as "White Boy Rick."
Wershe became a Detroit street legend after he was busted in 1987 with eight kilos of cocaine, the largest single-defendant seizure in the city's history at that point. He was 17 years old, a mid-level player in the city's drug trade, and showed up to court in an Armani suit. A judge sentenced him to life in prison without parole, saying he was "worse than a mass murderer."
Wershe claimed for decades that the FBI and Detroit police had recruited him as a paid confidential informant at the tender age of 14 to assist their investigations of the city's crack cocaine trade before eventually turning on him. The story seemed like an eye-roller, but in 2015 The Atavist Magazine tracked down old FBI records and a retired agent who confirmed the feds had used the industrious, baby-faced teen to keep tabs on some of Detroit's most violent drug crews. When Wershe was 15, the FBI even paid for a flight to Las Vegas and a fake ID so he could go to a boxing match at Caesars Palace attended by some of Detroit's cocaine wholesalers.
"He was a 14-year-old put into the system to provide information," Robert Aguirre, a former member of the Michigan State Parole Board, told me in 2014. "The expectation was what? That he would choose to achieve things in high school and go on to higher education?"
After 9/11, the FBI had to rapidly pivot to becoming a counterterrorism agency, and to do so it needed to build out an unprecedented informant network. Journalist Trevor Aaronson described how the FBI developed, used, and abused this historically large spy network in his 2013 book, The Terror Factory.
"What became clear from my reporting is that in the decade since 9/11, the FBI has built the largest network of spies ever to exist in the United States—with ten times as many informants on the streets today as there were during the infamous COINTELPRO operations under FBI director J. Edgar Hoover—with the majority of these spies focused on ferreting out terrorism in Muslim communities," Aaronson wrote.
In 1975, the Church Committee investigating abuses by the intelligence community found the FBI had roughly 1,500 informants. By 2008, the FBI's budget request included funds to build new software to track up to 15,000 informants.
Since Aaronson released his book, much of the FBI's counterterrorism efforts have focused on Americans providing support or trying to join the Islamic State, but the tactics and targets remain the same. Since 2014, 208 people have been charged in the U.S. with offenses related to ISIS, according to the George Washington University Program on Extremism. Of those, 58 percent were arrested in an operation involving an informant and/or an undercover agent.
This sort of informant network doesn't come cheap. The FBI paid approximately $294 million to informants between FY 2012 and FY 2018, according to OpenTheBooks.com.
When money isn't enough, the FBI isn't above intimidation and coercion to get a reliable snitch. The FBI has used levers like the threat of deportation, being put on the no-fly list, and sometimes straight-up blackmail to convince reluctant people, most often Muslims and foreigners staying in the U.S. on visas, to become informants.
"I don't think anyone fully appreciates how demoralizing it is to be sitting across the table from a peace-loving man or woman from a foreign country, insinuating all kinds of baseless BS, attempting to coerce them to spy on their equally peaceful community," Terry Albury, a disillusioned former FBI agent who was convicted of leaking classified documents, told The New York Times, "but it was also my job."
All this isn't to say the FBI never gets their man using a well-placed informant. An undercover FBI source in Florida infiltrated the Ku Klux Klan and exposed several prison guards who were credibly plotting to murder a black former inmate.
Karen Greenberg, director of the Center on National Security at Fordham University School of Law, has meticulously tracked terrorism-related prosecutions since 9/11 and watched the government refine its methods for building and winning cases against alleged terrorists. The trouble, she says, is when informants are "not just inserting themselves as eyes and ears but inserting themselves as provocateurs. The real question is can you have a policy like this and still rein it in from becoming the latter?"
'The Only Reason They Got on the Radar Was Because They Had a Political Viewpoint'
One of the crucial points in the FBI's defense of its counterterror efforts and informant program, and one hotly disputed by its critics, is that it waits until rhetoric goes beyond your average punk lyrics before it takes action.
For example, at a 2006 press conference announcing the indictment of 11 "eco-terrorists" responsible for an estimated $80 million in property damages, then–FBI Director Robert Mueller said, "The FBI becomes involved, as it did in this case, only when volatile talk crosses the line into violence and criminal activity."
But some cases seem to contradict Mueller's statements. Consider Eric McDavid, who was convicted along with two others in 2007 of plotting to bomb a dam in California.
In the early 2000s, the FBI took a keen interest in anarchists and radical environmentalists, which is how McDavid, 26 at the time, met a young woman named "Anna" at an anarchist gathering in Iowa in 2004. Anna was in fact a volunteer FBI informant who had a knack for infiltrating radical leftist spaces.
"The only reason they got on the radar was because they had a political viewpoint," Mark Reichel, McDavid's lawyer at his original trial, told me in 2015. "At the same time, the head of the Justice Department was testifying before Congress, saying, 'No, we don't do that. We don't spy on people because of political reasons.'"
Indeed, in 2006, the American Civil Liberties Union received FBI records through Freedom of Information Act requests showing that agents had surveilled activists such as Quakers, anti-war Catholics, and an especially dangerous-sounding extremist group called "Raging Grannies." Under sharp questioning from the Senate Judiciary Committee, Mueller denied that the groups' speech had resulted in their being targeted. "We were attempting to identify an individual," Mueller testified. "The agents were not concerned about the political dissent." A 2010 Department of Justice Inspector General report later concluded that the FBI was sloppy and improper, though it did not find the investigations were launched in response to protected First Amendment activity.
Anna's FBI handlers put her on McDavid and two of his friends full time in 2005 after Anna reported that McDavid had been further radicalized. Eventually, the bureau supplied Anna with a bugged 1996 Chevrolet Lumina and a cabin in the California foothills where the four could discuss potential targets to bomb: cellphone towers, fish hatcheries, a dam. When the group bought some bomb-making supplies at a Kmart, using a fake recipe supplied by Anna, law enforcement closed the trap and arrested them.
McDavid's defense attorneys argued the group's schemings were, like those of the Whitmer defendants, just stoned daydreams and braggadocio. Would McDavid and his friends have been able to do anything without Anna urging them on and providing them with a car, a cabin to stay in, fake bomb recipes, and spending cash in the form of crisp $100 bills?
But winning on an entrapment defense is extremely difficult, because it requires showing that the government induced the crime and that the defendant lacked the predisposition to engage in the crime.
The second element is what proves tricky for defendants trying to argue entrapment. In some cases, an undercover FBI agent drives the sting target to a vantage point and hands them a remote detonator to a fake bomb. It's hard to argue you had no predisposition to commit an act of terrorism when, given the chance, you pushed a button believing that you were about to kill dozens, maybe hundreds of people. Although the defendants in the Whitmer case argued they never agreed to kidnap the governor, they all got in the car to stake out her house and inspect the bridge they had talked about bombing.
This is why the FBI has such a long track record of winning these sting cases. According to a report by the Reiss Center on Law and Security at New York University, of 593 terrorism-associated prosecutions between 2001 and 2009, the U.S. government secured convictions in 523 of them, an 88 percent conviction rate.
"The entrapment defense, whether it's a formal or sort of informal entrapment defense, is very much something that does not work in terrorism trials," Greenberg says. "If you say the FBI overreached, that the FBI suggested the plot, that the FBI helped pick the weapons, that the FBI was really the initiator in many steps of a plot, it doesn't matter. Juries find for the government."
The jury in McDavid's case was no exception. He was sentenced to almost 20 years in federal prison on enhanced terrorism charges. (Notably, the jury was instructed to only consider McDavid's predisposition for violence from 2005 onward, not when Anna first began reporting on him in 2004.)
McDavid got an unexpected reprieve seven years later, when two of his supporters filed a Freedom of Information Act request for his FBI file and received 2,500 pages of documents that prosecutors had previously insisted did not exist. The records included notes from McDavid to Anna showing that he was smitten with her and responses from Anna telling him to wait until after their "mission."
The U.S. Attorney's Office in Sacramento could offer no satisfactory explanation for why the records were never turned over to McDavid's defense counsel. An exasperated federal judge called the debacle "one of the most unusual things I've had to deal with, if not the most unusual," in his nearly 20 years on the bench.
Federal prosecutors cut a deal with McDavid to release him on time served in exchange for pleading to a lesser charge of conspiracy, and he walked free in 2015 after nearly nine years in federal prison.
"Anna" had long ago given up the spy game and moved on with her life, her service to her country complete.
'There Are a Lot of People Who Are Understandably Very Concerned About Mr. Epps'
"Exactly how many of those present at the Capitol complex on January 6 were FBI confidential informants, agents, or otherwise, working directly or indirectly with an agency of the United States government?" Donald Trump asked at a January 15 rally in Arizona. "People want to hear this. How about the one guy, 'Go in, go in, get in there, everybody,' Epps. 'Get in there, go, go, go.' Nothing happens to him. What happened with him? Nothing happens."
The former president was engaging in one of the more popular hobbies for MAGA conservatives over the past two years: "just asking questions" about the FBI's involvement in the January 6 riot at the U.S. Capitol.
Trump was specifically referencing Ray Epps, an Arizona Trump supporter accused of being an FBI instigator based on several videos of him urging other Trump supporters to go into the Capitol and the fact that a photo of Epps on the FBI's website had disappeared. The accusation was echoed by a coterie including House and Senate Republicans and right-wing media.
"There are a lot of people who are understandably very concerned about Mr. Epps," Sen. Ted Cruz (R–Texas) said during a January Senate hearing, pressing FBI Executive Assistant Director Jill Sanborn to disclose whether Epps was a fed.
Epps, through his lawyer and in testimony before the House committee investigating January 6, has denied all of this. The FBI, as a matter of course, refuses to confirm or deny the particulars of its informant program, which just fuels more speculation. No real evidence has emerged of Epps' ties to the FBI. In late March, the Justice Department said it was preparing a "disclosure" to provide to attorneys of several January 6 defendants who have demanded details on Epps. According to the disclosure, a man who was at the Capitol riot told FBI investigators that Epps had actually encouraged him to calm down, saying, "Relax, the cops are doing their job."
The FBI frequently reveals the use of informants in charging documents and other court records. But no court records in the hundreds of prosecutions of January 6 rioters have mentioned the use of agents provocateurs. It's not an entirely unreasonable suspicion, given the bureau's history of infiltrating and disrupting political movements.
There was at least one FBI informant among the estimated crowd of 10,000 Trump supporters who surrounded the Capitol, which isn't much of a surprise given the aforementioned scope of the bureau's spy network. But despite the thousands of words spilled by Trump-friendly outlets about the possibility of federal agents instigating the January 6 riot, no smoking gun has yet been produced.
The clamor around alleged FBI involvement in the January 6 riot has mostly been a partisan smokescreen to obscure rot within the conservative movement. When one theory (like Ray Epps being a fed or the FBI hiding informants as "unindicted co-conspirators") collapses under scrutiny, the theorists simply move on to another.
It does speak, though, to the increasing political pressure and scrutiny the FBI is facing these days, not just from the usual bleeding hearts and civil libertarians, but also from conservatives who feel targeted by the Biden administration's rhetoric about right-wing extremism. The government has had an easy time winning convictions against Muslims for manufactured crimes, but can it consistently do the same against right-wing defendants?
In less high-profile cases, the answer is still often yes. In June, a federal judge sentenced two men associated with the boogaloo movement to three and four years in prison after they pleaded guilty to supporting a foreign terrorist organization. The men had traveled to a George Floyd protest in Minneapolis intending to sell guns to a member of Hamas, who was, of course, an undercover FBI agent.
'First You Have To Change the Policies'
On April 8, the jury in the Whitmer kidnapping plot trial delivered its verdicts. Harris and Caserta were acquitted. The jury was deadlocked on the charges against Croft and Fox, and the judge declared a mistrial in their cases.
"Obviously we're disappointed in the outcome," U.S. Attorney Andrew B. Birge told reporters outside the courtroom after the verdicts were announced. "We thought that the jury would convict beyond reasonable doubt based on the evidence we put forward."
As for the retrials for Croft and Fox, Birge said, "We have two defendants that are awaiting trial, and we'll get back to work on that."
The verdict was ultimately the decision of 12 individuals, not a public referendum on the FBI informant program. Another jury may well convict based on the same evidence put forward in the first trial.
But the loss must at least give the FBI pause to consider whether two decades of work securing the convictions of disaffected losers tanked a case where one of the defendants testified on the stand that he thought building explosives was fun and admitted to saying he wanted to put a bullet in the head of a sitting governor.
The war on terror allowed the FBI to build a massive spy network and shrug off post-Watergate restrictions limiting its ability to snoop on Americans. The fear of another 9/11 overcame our memories of Hoover's FBI wiretapping, burgling, and blackmailing of the government's political enemies, and so the bureau could once again investigate people for who they knew and what they said.
This is how an undercover FBI agent ended up sitting in the back seat of a car with a group of deranged and dopey militia members as they searched for Whitmer's vacation home. And it's why the case against the militia members fell apart, leading to questions over its viability as a prosecution strategy.
"If this tactic is not going to work in a context where they're not talking about an allegedly foreign enemy or a narrative that's tied to something as high-profile as the post-9/11 presence of Al Qaeda and ISIS, then what does that mean?" Greenberg says. "It looks like it will be a way for defendants to argue effectively, and so it's a game changer, I think."
German is less convinced. There's no incentive for the FBI to change and no rules to stop them, he argues. "As long as they have some success, they'll continue doing it," he says. "And as long as the attorney general guidelines remain as loose as they are, there's no ability for any more reasonable person in the FBI to compel agents to do anything different. So first you have to change the policies, and then you can actually enforce good policies that focus the FBI on where it needs to be focused: on criminal activity rather than policing ideas."
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "It's (Almost) Always the Feds."
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Unless they are acting against Trump, in which case their word is rock solid, right ENB?
Exactly. The feds were in Memphis when a group of Black men called "The Invaders" decided to start a riot during his peaceful march. Riiiiiiight. And black teenager was killed by police. MLK gave the eulogy. He did not know his photographer was an FBI informant. And then he was assassinated. What role did the feds play on Jan 6? I'm going to say a big one. They are straight up jackbooted thugs when they get political. https://thefreethoughtproject.com/government-corruption/52-yrs-fbi-memphis-pd-assassination-mlk
“What role did the feds play on Jan 6? I'm going to say a big one.”
Based on what evidence?
Based on tin-foil hats! Last date of calibration? I don't know!
Did you know that such hats can double up as anti-matter hats? They can be used to fend off that which doesn't matter!!!
Must not be that recent. I’m not sure one can even purchase tin foil anymore.
That's right you two chucklefucks, handwave the video footage of known FBI agents and Capitol Police in plainclothes walking into the capitol in plainclothes with the protesters.
Handwave the NYT report that the FBI had informants in the protesters.
There's good reason that <a href="https://twitter.com/ZoeTillman/status/1440776133675388931"Federal prosecutors were fighting to keep the Capitol surveillance videos under seal, because no that they're released they clearly contradict your narrative of a mad rush, violence, weapons, and organized insurrection.
*now that*
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Eighty North American nation greenbacks... What an interesting way to phrase it.
The entire history of the fbi
Right??
It's like these people are from an alternate universe where COINTELPRO never happened.
Based on prior experience?
It’s not like the article talked about all the plots the FBI was involved in or directly responsible for or something.
Just, wow.
They do it all the time, but they respect Trump so much they’d never do it to him.
Right?
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It would be very surprising if they weren't involved, given recent history.
Did you read the article? (no). Jan 6 is exactly the kind of black ops the FBI does. They get 2% of something and rev it up undercover.
No need to call out ENB there since there isn't a Reason writer that wasn't right there with her.
I wonder if guys like Stossel, Wilkow, etc. have noticed how far left Reason has gone?
No doubts allowed in a holy crusade.
Obviously, the failures of the FBI are all Trump's fault.
The FBI is an evil group of people who will entrap people, falsify evidence, and lie when testifying, EXCEPT when going after former President Trump or conservatives. For in those instances, all evidence shows, they are completely honest law enforcement officers who are just searching for the truth and working to prevent white supremacists from taking control of the government.
It's really hard for me to watch leftists and libertarians have two positions at the same time. Law enforcement are evil and lie, AND law enforcement are just doing their job by the book (but only when going after Donald Trump). They can espouse those two positions in the same article.
You saw from the demonic speech that Biden gave in Philadelphia that this is a dying regime. That was a primal scream. And here what they’re trying to do, no matter who it is whether Donald Trump at Mar-a-Lago. There were 35 FBI raids last night. Right. And there’s another grand jury coming together on January 6th, the Washington Post reported it. THIRTY-FIVE Senior Members of MAGA! of Republicans, supporters of Donald Trump that the FBI rolled in on. When they didn’t need to do it. Right? All these people have lawyers. The jack-booted Gestapo has to show up at their door and make a big display of this.
I came home from the Vietnam War to find FBI and who knows who baiting the students at colleges, setting them up and causing the violence. Now that they do it to the other side, conservatives are upset.
Can you make some Telegram channel and post there as well? You will find a lot of readers this way.
https://flyordieio.com
The clamor around alleged FBI involvement in the January 6 riot has mostly been a partisan smokescreen to obscure rot within the conservative movement. When one theory (like Ray Epps being a fed or the FBI hiding informants as "unindicted co-conspirators") collapses under scrutiny, the theorists simply move on to another
Oh. Good to know. Glad to see how deeply you went into this one.
Ctrl+f 'rittenhouse' 0/0 results
Ctrl+f 'drone' 0/0 results
I also note that, once again, the fact*s* that the FBI had drones in the air over Kenosha and lost the footage has gone *completely* under the radar.
Pages upon pages of ink about drones over foreign war and conflict zones. Near literally none about the fact that the FBI was spying on Americans and apparently, even just incidentally, deciding who gets access to their footage in their own defense and who doesn't by destroying or losing evidence.
Reason authors didn't watch the unedited right-wing trial coverage.
They trust our good government to show them what they need to know.
When the scrutiny given is "nuh uh" and that is taken for fact it's hard to take the writer seriously as anything beyond a partisan hack propagandist.
I just find it difficult to believe that Epps wasn’t a fed. He was to incite violation of a specific law, asking specific people to commit a specific act at a specific time and place. And he’s gone uncharged.
He was either a fed or turned States evidence to save himself, the lengths the FBI went to for everyone else but he's unmentioned leaves no other choice. That CJ decides this is unimportant and not worth looking at is itself a problem.
It's also baffling seeing one guy who specifically, repeatedly, said to go storm the capitol is the one guy who is completely forgiven of all transgressions. Even Adam "Jan 6 was the worst moment EVER" did that. The treatment is utter bullshit compared to literally everybody else.
Wait, we got an explanation for Ray Epps? I didn’t read the article. What was it?
She gives the FBI'S description of events and then dismisses with the FBI'S narrative.
No real evidence has emerged of Epps' ties to the FBI. In late March, the Justice Department said it was preparing a "disclosure" to provide to attorneys of several January 6 defendants who have demanded details on Epps. According to the disclosure, a man who was at the Capitol riot told FBI investigators that Epps had actually encouraged him to calm down, saying, "Relax, the cops are doing their job."
Some super journalisming there. Never investigate the story yourself, just reprint the press statement. I mean, why would the FBI ever lie about it? It's never happened before.
So nothing about the multiple videos we’ve all seen from both 1/5 and 1/6 of him telling people to storm the capital? No explanation why he was on the person of interest list then taken down?
I’m sorry but one guy saying he said "Relax, the cops are doing their job." doesn’t disprove or excuse everything else we know of him.
The one guy who is also a fed?
"Relax, the cops are doing their job."
Their job was to facilitate the unauthorized tour group entry into a building.
I assume it’s possible that Ray Epps was spared any criminal responsibility for what happened on Jan6 due to cooperation with the Feds, while also not acting on orders from the FBI when he told people to enter the capitol. It’s possible.
You know, Stalin never ordered anyone to torture confessions out of political prisoners. He oversaw a system that set confession quotas for political prisoners, and the interrogators took care of the torture all by themselves.
I’m sure the FBI never told any informers to suggest anyone go into the capitol.
You’re right. CJ should just believe without evidence because it feels right that it must be the FBI behind January 6th. MAGAs are the good guys so a bunch of MAGAs couldn’t have possibly decided to riot in an effort to undermine American democracy on their own.
He’s believing the word of the FBI about a man that’s on video multiple times telling different groups of people to go into the capital, who wasn’t arrested like everyone else that told people to go into the capital.
In an article about how the FBI encourages people to commit crimes so they can arrest them.
Mike knows this
Yep. He’s a terrible person.
He really is due at least a dozen savage beatings for being such a mendacious cunt. Hopefully someone in his orbit finally handles that.
The amount one just has to gaslight themselves on this is impressive. But Mike gonna Mike.
He isn't gaslighting himself - he's deliberately trying to gaslight anyone that would take him seriously. He is a dishonest shill for the left by any and all means.
You are gaslighting right now. If you had some evidence that the FBI was behind January 6th, you’d present it instead of making personal remarks.
You don’t understand what gaslighting is, do you White Mike?
He really doesn't. If he did it would prompt unwanted self-examination.
Or self-extermination.
who wasn’t arrested like everyone else that told people to go into the capital
So everyone else that told people to go into the capital was arrested? Do you have proof of this claim?
Ok Mike.
Yes, LITERALLY everyone else who said it was arrested! That’s obviously what I meant Lying Jeffy.
Have you actually seen all the videos of Epps?
Well, Troll Mac, who recently said this?
Personally, my driving factors are the NAP, and being honest
You weren't honest there, were you?
I’M BEING ARRESTED RIGHT NOW JUST FOR TYPING IT!
If you did that in a formal debate, you would be laughed out of the event. The way you continually embarrass yourself is astounding.
And, in that very same discussion, you criticized me for using a figure of speech that was not LITERALLY true. Oh the irony.
But unlike my casual figure of speech, your claim is actually more substantive, because you are attempting to claim that Ray Epps' lack of an arrest is proof of his special treatment by law enforcement, and by extension proof that he's an informant, because "everybody else" was arrested. If "everybody else" really was arrested, then it is quite suspicious that this one person wasn't, isn't it?
But this claim only works if, all else equal, there is no other plausible reason to explain why he wasn't arrested. But if you look at the arrest records to date, In point of fact, there were about 2,000 people who entered the Capitol on that day, but only about 900 arrests have been made so far.
https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/07/jan-6-prosecutions-months-later-00044354
So it is not necessarily all that suspicious that Ray Epps is among the 1,100 people who weren't arrested. You're not trying to claim that all 1,100 are receiving special treatment because they were FBI informants, are you? No of course not. That would be stupid even for you.
Are you Ray Epps Lying Jeffy?
Hmm, no answer. Very interesting.
Jeffy must have zero friends, can you imagine anyone tolerating his presence for more than a few minutes without attempting to kill him?
"He’s believing the word of the FBI about a man that’s on video multiple times telling different groups of people to go into the capital, who wasn’t arrested like everyone else that told people to go into the capital."
Was anybody else caught on video telling people to go to the Capitol?
"CJ should just believe without evidence"
Notice Mike's rhetorical trick here. He says no evidence even though CJ literally wrote about the evidence. CJ actually says there was evidence- "several videos of [Epps] urging other Trump supporters to go into the Capitol and...a photo of Epps on the FBI's website had disappeared."
But Mike is a gaslighting liar. He knows that what he says is bullshit. He shows up in the comments and just makes stuff up in post after post after post. Because he doesn't care if he is transparently wrong about what he says. He is here to cloud up any conversation with shit. Fake shit, true shit, it doesn't matter. He'll say something today, get proven wrong and then tomorrow say the same thing.
Here he is saying he'd never trust Rolling Stone magazine for any news of consequence, mere days after he had been literally posting links to their ivermectin hoax story:
https://reason.com/2021/09/09/california-is-set-to-outlaw-unannounced-condom-removal/?comments=true#comment-9091773
He isn't here to converse, but to ensure that no conversation can happen by concern trolling threads into oblivion.
Ahh, but no notarized membership cards!
Jeffy is the same thing, but with more focus on being a child molestation advocate.
He shouldn't have mentioned it at all instead of claiming that there's been disproven claims, you mendacious fuckwit. And before anyone says anything, mendacious fuckwit is an insult, not an ad hominin.
Fuck off, right winger. I should have muted you long ago. Quite little thought, but huge amounts of emoting, happen in your “Thinking Mind”.
Mmmmm, taste the projection.
"Quite little thought, but huge amounts of emoting"
Sarcasmic-level lack of self-awareness there, Mike.
It's so cute how I observe something in someone else, like a lack of self awareness, then you and the rest start repeating whatever I said over and over and over, thinking you're clever. Tell you what, the only people who think you are clever are really, really dumb.*
*I now fully expect to hear that same sentence directed at me by you and several others, over and over, with lots of comments telling each other how clever you are.
Arf arf!
Sometimes (constantly) sarcasmic, you insist someone is guilty of something and that you never do it, in a follow-up to a post where you just done exactly that.
How many times have you trolled the fuck out of somebody and then insisted you're all about high-minded debate and "ideas"? How many times have you attacked someone personally, and then shouted "ad hominem" when they tell you to fuck off? How many times have you been a dick to almost everyone in the comments and then cry about "mean girls" when the pushback starts?
And I think that you're sincere. You honestly don't remember one post earlier when you were being an enourmous dick, and now genuinely feel you're the victim.
It's like you're physically incapable of remembering or even reading what you just posted. I've never seen anything like it. Maybe it's the booze, or maybe you should be in psychiatric textbook as a medical marvel?
My favorite is when he types up some sarcastic statement then gets butt hurt when people call him out on how ridiculous his man of straw is.
See, in this context, "right winger" might actually be an ad hominem, since it's a reason he's saying my opinions should be discounted. Whereas calling someone a mendacious fuckwit is responsive to him providing a poorly reasoned bad faith false dilemma.
I didn't say CJ has to completely accept the accusations that Ray Epps is a Fed, despite what Laursen implied. He just has to be neutral on the situation. A generous thing might have been, "Even if conservatives were incorrect, it's fair to be suspicious of the FBI." But he doesn't have to be generous, he can be neutral: "Conservatives remain suspicious of potential FBI involvement in January 6, even though no smoking gun has been found." That's a way to do it without implying there is a "rot" at the "core" of the entire conservative movement in America.
Even without the side-swipe at conservatives, the suddenly credulity at that point in the story is shocking. The evidence that Epps is not a fed is that Epps claims he's not, there's currently no proven link, and the FBI has been silent on the matter. That's not really proof, but CJ implies the Epps narratives has fallen apart because one person (who clearly can't be a fed or an informant himself!) said that Epps told him to calm down and stop being aggressive toward police.
That whole segment of this story on the FBI's corruption and surveillance took a jarring U-turn into trusting the FBI, only to back out and continue plugging along.
Watch your mouth you faggoty little bitch. You are beneath all of us and a goddamn lying shitweasel to boot. So mind your place.
Well, there's a real easy way to settle the debate -- release the video footage. Everybody I know wants to release the footage and charge everybody who committed a crime. Why is that so difficult here?
Video of Epp specifically? Video of something else?
Because there are publicly circulated videos of Epp.
Keep playing ignorant Dee.
Luckily for humanity, his BS is so transparent that nobody could possibly fall for it. That's why he's overpaid.
Dude, there's no point. Trump and Republicans represent all that is holy in this world. Everything bad is caused by Democrats. Anything bad that happened on J6 was caused by the FBI. Saint Babbitt was cut down in cold blood my a murderous federal agent. Every rioter is a political prisoner who did nothing wrong.
And, most importantly, WHATABOUT......!!!!?!?!?!!!?!!!!?!!
Poor sarc.
I know “whadabout summer riots”, like you or I or sarc or SQRLSY have ever expressed any approval of summer riots. (Spoiler: We haven’t.)
“Whadabout all those antifa not prosecuted.” You mean all those antifa who wear masks and dark hoodies rather than posting pictures and videos of themselves on social media?
What’s worse, going into the capital building on 1/6, or lighting a building on fire with someone inside who burns to death?
BLM rioters burned some buildings and stole some sneakers and TVs, and conservatives want to lynch BLMers! Ashli wanted to steal democracy, and conservatives want to turn Her into a Saint!
Rioters of all stripes are to be condemned, not turned into heroes, in my mind! BUT, if I have my choice, please steal my sneakers AND my TV, and let me keep my democracy!
Sneakers and TVs can be quickly replaced, in a free market. Democracy? If stolen by Trumpistas, there is NO telling WHEN, if ever, we'll get it back!
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/07/theres-word-what-trumpism-becoming/619418/
There’s a Word for What Trumpism Is Becoming
The relentless messaging by Trump and his supporters has inflicted a measurable wound on American democracy.
From above…
“The conversion of Ashli Babbitt into a martyr, a sort of American Horst Wessel, expresses the transformation. Through 2020, Trump had endorsed deadly force against lawbreakers: “When the looting starts, the shooting starts,” he tweeted on May 29, 2020. Babbitt broke the law too, but not to steal a TV. She was killed as she tried to disrupt the constitutional order, to prevent the formalization of the results of a democratic election.”
Well, also Saint Babbitt was unarmed, they say... To this I say...
What utter bullshit! A lion, tiger, or bear charges you, having NO weapons other than their body parts... Just as "un-armed" as Saint Babbitt... Are you, or are you NOT gonna shoot said predator, if you have a gun? If I beat the shit out of you, with my fists, shall I be forgiven, 'cause I was... unarmed?
My GAWD you (Saint Babbitt Worshitters) fascists are illogical!!!
These grey box’s breath smell like shit. Must be sqrlsy.
R Mac... Militantly ignorant, and PROUD to STAY that way!
It seems to be a badge of honor around here.
Why are you responding to yourself?
It’s not ignorance to ignore your shitposting.
You mean all those antifa who wear masks and dark hoodies rather than posting pictures and videos of themselves on social media?
So unfair.
Love that "Saint Babbitt" is not mean but "Saint Floyd" is. They had the identical situation. Both killed as a drastic overreaction by police. Only one got any sort of justice for what befell them, though.
So the theory collapses because the FBI denies it. Do you even read your own articles CJ?
Has it ever been determined if CIA whistleblower Eric Ciaramella is related to C.J.?
Have they ever been seen in the same room together?
Don't you know? Ray Epps is OBVIOUSLY the only person involved with 1/6 that deserves a puff piece in the NYT, even though he's on camera instigating people to go into the capitol. Nothing to see here!!!
Oh well, that is iron-clad proof right there that Epps is an FBI informant. Isn't it?
Is the argument that there’s iron clad proof that he is, or that the idea hasn’t collapsed under scrutiny? What scrutiny is he referring to?
chemjeff, feel free to provide an alternative explanation for the ONLY person caught on camera telling people to storm the Capitol being the only person who was not, in any way whatsoever, punished.
Anna was in fact a volunteer FBI informant who had a knack for infiltrating radical leftist spaces.
If a normal person had said this, I would've considered it a fantastic double entendre. Given the context, I'm going to assume it was written straight in complete obliviousness.
I guess Anna wasn't very good because there have been no big show trials of BLM and ANTIFA protestors.
You know what Antifa and BLM protestors tended not to do: they tended not to post photos and videos of themselves rioting on social media.
Wow.
Kill yourself you Marxist trash
Hahahahahaha, did you actually say this with a straight face?
Okayyyyy. Avoids eye contact.
You are quickly becoming a parody.
Is what I said not the truth?
No. It's a complete fabulation. They do it constantly.
Mike Liarson is a squawking bird named Dee and should be treated as such.
Just say “Dee! You bitch!”.
"The jury didn't buy it. When the verdicts were read a year and a half later in March, two of the militia members were acquitted, and the jury deadlocked on the other two."
Not enough Fibbies on the jury?
When they redid the trial, they had to prevent the defense from bringing in a lot of exculpatory evidence. Because making the FBI look bad seemingly was not a valid strategy.
This has been a very troubling trend lately. Judges deciding what defenses will and will not be allowed. In the Bannon contempt trial (and he is a dumbass who should of just showed up and said '5th' like a parrot) and pretty much every J6 trial, judges ruled they couldn't present defense arguments that could actually be effective. Seems they are afaid to have evidence of election fraud played in court. It doesn't matter if the info is right or wrong, if a jury finds the info presented believable, it would serve as reasonable doubt that the defendants were acting against real fraud. This cannot be allowed.
Fortified verdicts?
The judiciary is compromised. They are taking sides. They are an extension of the executive branch now.
A compromised judiciary means you have no checks and balances.
Checks and balances are racist!
^+1000^ lol
“We do not have Obama judges or Trump judges, Bush judges or Clinton judges. What we have is an extraordinary group of dedicated judges doing their level best to do equal right to those appearing before them.” The so-called conservative Justice Roberts, ever the political animal. Beyond biden's extralegal and illegal horseshit, the greatest damage he is doing to the nation is via his judicial appointees.
Remember the fraudulent FISA warrant?
Anyone literally not born yesterday would have questioned the stupid dossier. But it was rubber stamped.
A lot of attention given to the guy who presented the warrant and his slap on the wrist. Bad
But worse is the judge who rubber stamped it it, crickets. Much worse!
Roberts over sees the FISA court.
Hey, they wrote a strongly worded letter!
Translation: there have been court cases decided in ways that I don’t agree with.
It was a retrial where the judge didn't allow the defence attorney to provide evidence for the defence.
Kill yourself
Translation: Dee’s a lefty shill.
Ah yes, trial didn't go the way the government wanted, so do it again and get a different result. Exactly who is having issues with the "I don't agree with" it situation?
It’s the exaggeration. Not, the FISA court is too lenient. No, it’s “the judiciary is compromised.” So much more dramatic, and can be used to justify actions like the January 6th riots.
If the judiciary is trying someone twice for the same crime because they didn’t get the verdict they wanted the first time, yeah it’s safe to say the judiciary is compromised.
It's the PROSECUTION that decides whether or not to retry someone in the case of a hung jury.
A judge that follows the constitution would have tossed the case.
Oh what basis?
Double jeopardy. Add the judge denying the use of the defense that worked in the first trial.
you are right, it is the prosecutor. I was wrong to lump them into the judicial.
But that means the executive branch is using the judicial branch because they didn’t get their way. I’m not sure that’s much better.
"...Both Whitmer and then-presidential candidate Joe Biden blamed President Donald Trump for fomenting extremism..."
Add the TDS-addled Sullum.
Personally I think putting a stop to this will take more than a change to policy. It will take a change to the law.
The three basic elements of a crime: motive, means, and opportunity.
Current case law is that it's only entrapment if the government supplies the motive (the whole predisposition to commit a crime standard).
I think the law needs to change such that it's entrapment and illegal for the government to supply any one of the three basic elements, motive, means or opportunity.
Here's a tip: If you have oppose this regime.
More appropriate opening line.
Hey I see the Feds oops I mean Patriot Front had another staged march. Ridiculous
Almost? Rudolf, McVeigh,Weaver all were manipulated or entrapped or both (the McVeigh situation just got out of control) and it goes back further, to the civil rights and Vietnam war era. And even "legitimate" enforcement of in Prohibition was full of cowboy operations. The FBI in particular has never been respectable, and the ATF is full of rejects from the other agencies. But if you've ever known a few prisoners (both criminal and political) they'll tell you the only difference between the inmates and the guards is which side of the bars they're on.
How was Eric Rudolf manipulated by the FBI? The FBI evidently had no knowledge of Rudolf and were eager to pin the bombing on Richard Jewell, the guard who first noticed the bomb and called in the bomb experts. Before being captured, Rudolf survived for years camping out in forests and dumpster diving.
"and yet the FBI…can't tell you how many people white supremacists killed last year, because they don't even track these crimes."
Ummm, all of them. White supremacy is responsible for every death. Do you even woke, bruh?
I don't think there is any evidence that the FBI entrapped or manipulated Eric Rudolf, perpetrator of the 1998 Atlanta bombing.
I seem to remember the FBI going hard at someone else for that bombing...
Exactly. The notion that the FBI all along had manipulated Rudolf into the bombing makes very little sense. Some apparently are willing to believe just about anything.
Well, if the FBI isn't orchestrating the schemes, they're pinning it on the easiest target. Just a different type of fuckery.
Cops have a rule of thumb. The easiest one to pin is probably the right one. Suspicion falling on Jewell was logical, and he deserved some scrutiny but he clearly had no motive and his personality was opposite to that of someone like Rudolf. They should have quickly dropped him and devoted their attention to finding the perpetrator. All with the benefit of hind sight, of course.
The FBI Russia collusion effort rates no mention. Run from the very top of the FBI and continually pushed forward even though they knew the entire thing was based on information created by paid minions of the Clinton campaign.
FBI delenda est.
There's no evidence the FBI entrapped Paul Manafort, fraudster and Trump's one time campaign manager.
"Run from the very top of the FBI"
A Trump appointee.
What Manafort was convicted of had nothing to do with premise of the investigation.
"What Manafort was convicted of had nothing to do with premise of the investigation."
Because he wasn't entrapped. Sting operations are much more tightly run and the convictions follow with few surprising twists and turns.
But they absolutely entrapped Michael Flynn.
Flynn was a foolish and gullible amateur when it came to dealing with dictators and foreign intelligence assets. He had 'entrap me' written all over him. Manafort was a seasoned professional who'd made a career of dealings with dodgy characters.
If he didn't want to be violated he shouldn't have been wearing that dress.
The big boys play for keeps. Something someone who spent a career as a coddled tax parasite in a green suit had to learn the hard way.
Yes, he should have assumed the FBI was a collection of corrupt shit weasels.
I've been teaching my son that if a Fed ever wants to talk to you, do not say a word. No matter how innocent he is.
Yeah, Flynn should have known Obama was a dictator.
Reason Rundown
WH Press Secretary says Biden created “10 THOUSAND MILLION JOBS”!
“We have created nearly ten thousand million jobs since President Biden took office, which is the fastest job growth in history”
I thought Psaki was bad, but this new press secretary takes gaslighting to a whole new level. It would be impressive if it wasn't so stupid and obvious.
Remember the good old days, when George Stephanopoulos would deflect or dissemble, rather that straight out lie?
But a good (White) house dinger. Who can expect an amazing network contract.
I don't think it is gaslighting. She is clueless, dumb, and just makes shit up that follow the narrative.
She just reads from the script as often as possible.
Bringing back the “speak-o”:
https://townhall.com/columnists/larryelder/2014/07/31/father-of-obamacare-makes-a-speako-n1872384
Reason Rundown
Looks like one of the Four Horseman has become an ass.
SAM HARRIS: Biden’s terrible, horrible, no good, very bad speech is a window into Trump’s soul.
I love seeing Trumpists condemning the political optics of this image. Admittedly, they are terrible. But they are only bad by reference to values that should lead you to totally repudiate Trump himself. For Biden, this is a gaffe; for Trump, it would be a window into his soul.
When Trump makes you so mad that you sing Osama Bin Laden's praises and attribute Biden's own optics to Trump's "soul", you might be having a psychic break. Must be from all that rational thinking he does.
Also interesting is that Trump's "soul" is so powerful it can make an atheist high-priest like Harris proclaim its existence. Trump really is the Demiurge for these people.
Or a psychotic break!
Sanity is racist!
That's fucking hilarious.
Reason Rundown
University mandates vaccine for students but not themselves
Reason Rundown
BLM Leader Accused Of Using Organization As Personal Slush Fund
Is that the one whose married to the other lady who is the head of BLM in the US, who also embezzled money?
They've all been caught embezzling now. The whole thing for them was a swindle and a confidence game on rich white liberals.
I'd actually have been cool with that, if that had been all it was and the murderous, city-destroying riots on behalf of Soros and the DNC hadn't occurred.
“Bowers’ actions led the foundation into investigations by the Internal Revenue Service and various…”
Looks like someone’s outlasted their usefulness to the DNC.
Interesting. More than one right-wing commenter here complained that Biden called MAGAs “enemies of the state” in his speech, although he never used those exact words. Like they were all repeating a talking point they were getting from right-wing media.
Then Trump uses the exact words, “enemy of the state”, at his rally.
Not only are you guys being played by a grifter. You are being given a script, and you are naively repeating what has been scripted for you.
Wake up! Reject Red vs Blue Team sports and think independently.
"Wake up! Reject Red vs Blue Team sports and think independently."
I agree... Sad to say, asking this of tribalists is like asking fish not to swim!
Then Trump uses the exact words, “enemy of the state”, at his rally.
Did he apply that to a powerless group of voters (e.g. Democratic voters) he believes to be evil, or specific bureaucrats holding state and corporate power?
Trump directed those words at the enemies that he hears talking to pure and innocent native-born GOOD Americans, as those voices appear in the heads of these GOOD people! Trying to TRICK those good people! These head voices are BAD! BAD, Trump says, BAD! Whatever you do, do NOT take any "talk therapy" from these voices in your head! Take "talk therapy" ONLY from the GOOD voices, which Trump can hear best of ALL people!!! ONLY the voices in Trump's head are to be trusted!!!
TRUMP NEEDS YOUR HELP NOW, Good People!!!!
https://www.thedailybeast.com/mypillow-guy-mike-lindell-punts-timeline-for-trump-retaking-power-as-august-conspiracy-theories-get-wackier
MyPillow Guy Punts Timeline for Trump Retaking Power as Conspiracy Theories Get Wackier
https://www.salon.com/2021/08/22/mike-lindell-still-in-trumps-good-graces-has-new-prediction-reinstatement-by-new-years/
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us as scheduled, but the Second Coming is now re-scheduled. You can TRUST us THIS time, for sure!
The Lord Trump DID return to us faithful ones, but He did it in an invisible way! Hold strong in your Faith in Him!
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us yet, this is true! It only did NOT happen because YOU were not faithful enough, and didn’t send Him enough donations!
The Lord Trump didn’t return to us yet, but He DID miraculously protect us all from the VERY worst forces of Evil, which is Der BidenFuhrer! Hold fast in your Faith… Lord Trump will come back VERY soon now! Especially if you send Him more money!
The Lord Trump moves in Mysterious Ways! All will be revealed SOON! Especially if you have Enough Faith to DONATE till it HURTS!
You didn't answer the question, Shillsy.
Trump hates all of the bad people, and directs His Righteous Words of Anger at the BAD people! And He LOVES the GOOD people! (You can TELL that they are GOOD people, because they support Trump!)
There... Did I hit the mark? Is THAT a satisfactory answer? Did I tell you that which You want to hear?
Now, you deflected with a gibberish rant like you always do, because if you answered honestly you'd fuck your narrative.
Your entire HEAD is fucked, tribalist!
Here, LEARN something for once!
The intelligent, well-informed, and benevolent members of tribes have ALWAYS been resented by those who are made to look relatively worse (often FAR worse), as compared to the advanced ones. Especially when the advanced ones denigrate tribalism. The advanced ones DARE to openly mock “MY Tribe’s lies leading to violence against your tribe GOOD! Your tribe’s lies leading to violence against MY Tribe BAD! VERY bad!” And then that’s when the Jesus-killers, Mahatma Gandhi-killers, Martin Luther King Jr.-killers, etc., unsheath their long knives!
“Do-gooder derogation” (look it up) is a socio-biologically programmed instinct. SOME of us are ethically advanced enough to overcome it, using benevolence and free will! For details, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ .
I guess the weekend staff mixes up the meds.
Meds, my ass!
"Mentally ill", my ass! Whoever disagrees with totalitarians is "mentally ill"! That makes YOU just like the communist totalitarian assholes of the USSR who used psychiatry to punish political dissidents, asshole!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry_in_the_Soviet_Union#:~:text=During%20the%20leadership%20of%20General,that%20contradicted%20the%20official%20dogma.
It’s the mushrooms that grow in the shit he eats.
Literal blue tribalism as he accuses everyone of being red tribalists. Amazing.
Also, answer the question Shillsy. Did Trump apply White Mike's accusation to a powerless group of voters (e.g. Democratic voters) he believes to be evil, or to specific bureaucrats holding state and corporate power?
LOL. Why do republican "powerless group of voters" always play the poor persecuted victim. Biden, just like Hochul, were referring to the POS MAGA politicians, not everyday citizens. I love the whole "they're not after me, they're after you" cockamamie bullshit line Trump feeds his cult and how easy they fell/fall for this con man. Easy marks.
Read the transcript of Biden's speech and tell us what you think indicates that he's only referring to politicians when he says "MAGA Republicans." Hearing the speech and reading the transcript later, I found nothing in what he said about MAGA Republicans that limits what he's saying to politicians.
How much disengenous water are you able to carry at this point?
It's fun watching people grasp for arguments like you are doing here. Kind of shows a flailing political position. Thou doth protest too much, me thinks. And it's showing.
Do you think Mike marches back and forth in front of a mirror in his brown shirt between posts?
What is the disingenuous part? There IS a right-wing media echo chamber, and quite a few of the commenters here DO repeat the narratives of the echo chamber here. And it's not exactly a secret that Trump would get his cues from right-wing media figures.
It would not surprise me at all that the claim that Biden said "enemy of the state" in his speech originated on some right-wing blog, spread virally throughout the right-wing media echo chamber, where it was picked up by Trump and amplified, and now because it has been repeated so often, it is now "common knowledge" that Biden referred to all Republicans as "enemies of the state".
Never mind that all I claimed is that Biden didn’t use the word “enemy” or “enemies” to describe MAGA Republicans in his speech.
I even said I think what Bided DID say is wrong, which I’m sure all the Trump Mean Girls here will never acknowledge my having said.
Because they likely did not listen to the speech, or even read a transcript from it, they got their hot-takes from Fox News and right-wing blogs and podcasts, and if all of them in unison are declaring that "Biden declares war on all Republicans by denouncing them as anti-American traitors and enemies of the state" then that is 'reality' as far as the right-wing echo chamber is concerned.
To be fair, I didn’t listen to his speech, either. I have a firm personal rule of never wasting my time listening to political speeches.
But I did bother to look at a transcript.
Lol. You won’t waste your time watching it, but you will arguing about the semantics of it?
"To be fair, I didn’t listen to his speech, either. I have a firm personal rule of never wasting my time listening to political speeches."
But he sure as hell has "opinions" and considers himself informed.
"Because they likely did not listen to the speech, or even read a transcript from it"
Uh, they're not fifty-centers like you working off of talking-points pdfs.
What are you talking about? Several right-wing commenters use the exact same wording to paraphrase and slightly exaggerate what Biden actually said. Then Trump uses the exact same wording.
I make the quite obvious observation, and I’m “gaslighting”.
And every single time you bring up the stupid argument, you get destroyed because the speech was all about the demonization of political opponents. The fact that he didn't say 'enemy' while declaring half the country as anti-American is a straw so thin you can't even grasp it.
while declaring half the country as anti-American
But he didn't declare half the country as anti-American.
He said quite clearly from the outset that he is only referring to "MAGA Republicans", not every Republican.
But hitler didn’t mean all the Jews were bad……….
74 million Americans voted for Donald Trump after you, the DC establishment, the Democratic gentry class and their media, and the DNC, spent four years insisting that he was the second coming of Hitler.
Any way you slice it those 74 million people heard your invective and still chose Trump. They're incontrovertibly the MAGA voters your leadership just declared war on.
You don’t get what I’m saying. I’m saying that it is evidence that a whole bunch of commenters here are echoing talking points they got from the same sources.
I’m not saying I excuse what Biden said in his speech. I think what he said was wrong.
The comments were posted before the news programs.
I’m saying that it is evidence that a whole bunch of commenters here are echoing talking points they got from the same sources.
Yeah I don't see how this is in any way controversial. We see it on a daily basis, whatever gets discussed on Joe Rogan or published in the NY Post gets repeated here.
What did Rogan say about the speech?
Why don't you tell us.
I have no idea. You brought him up Lying Jeffy. Why do you like to lie about Joe Rogan?
Jeff has no fucking idea about Rogan.
The guy advocated Bernie Sanders and rails against Trump, but because he's honest and listens to all sides Jeff's masters have declared him persona non grata, and Jeff's not one to divert from the official narrative.
In fact, I can't actually remember Jeff ever advocating a position not held by the Democratic Party.
Say Jeff, name one Democratic Party official policy you oppose.
And there are continual complaints that Reason doesn’t have spread outrage against Biden and the Democrats, like they do at right-wing media outlets!
have said <- express
Amazing. I thought that kind of projection was only possible in IMAX.
If they used the exact same wording days before Trump, then how are they being led by him?
Kill yourself
EvilBahnFuhrer, drinking EvilBahnFuhrer Kool-Aid in a spiraling vortex of darkness, cannot or will not see the Light… It’s a VERY sad song! Kinda like this…
He’s a real Kool-Aid Man,
Sitting in his Kool-Aid Land,
Playing with his Kool-Aid Gland,
His Hero is Jimmy Jones,
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Jim-Jones
Loves death and the dying moans,
Then he likes to munch their bones!
Has no thoughts that help the people,
He wants to turn them all to sheeple!
On the sheeple, his Master would feast,
Master? A disaster! Just the nastiest Beast!
Kool-Aid man, please listen,
You don’t know, what you’re missin’,
Kool-Aid man, better thoughts are at hand,
The Beast, to LEAVE, you must COMMAND!
A helpful book is to be found here: M. Scott Peck, Glimpses of the Devil
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1439167265/reasonmagazinea-20/
Hey EvilBahnFuhrer …
If EVERYONE who makes you look bad, by being smarter and better-looking than you, killed themselves, per your wishes, then there would be NO ONE left!
Who would feed you? Who’s tits would you suck at, to make a living? WHO would change your perpetually-smelly DIAPERS?!!?
You’d better come up with a better plan, Stan!
Right, because it's not at all reasonable and no one would ever paraphrase into calling them "enemies of the state" when someone says a whole bunch of lines describing them to be threatening "the very foundations of our republic," and as "a threat to democracy," "a threat to our personal rights, to the pursuit of justice, to the rule of law, to the very soul of this country," and a "clear and present danger." That's definitely nothing at all like calling them "enemies of the state."
Yes, you're definitely thinking independently and rejecting "Red vs Blue Team sports."
"The clamor around alleged FBI involvement in the January 6 riot has mostly been a partisan smokescreen to obscure rot within the conservative movement. When one theory (like Ray Epps being a fed or the FBI hiding informants as "unindicted co-conspirators") collapses under scrutiny, the theorists simply move on to another."
It is not clear to me what this is supposed to mean. Did the theory of Ray Epps being a fed collapse under scrutiny? I mean, as near as I can tell, there are still a lot of questions. The FBI has provided a "disclosure", where they claim they found someone who said Epps calmed them down. And we have Epps denying he is an informant via a lawyer.
That hardly seems like a nail in the coffin to me. I think you need more than the circumstantial evidence offered at this point to conclude what Epps' involvement was. But to say this theory has collapsed is a stretch, imho.
The rot within the conservative party...
Ok, keep hanging with your racist friends then.
Or, one could choose not to associate with either Team Red or Team Blue.
This from the Reason comment's Team Blue Politruk.
One could, but then how are you going to give the benefit of the doubt to either party?
You know, it is entirely possible to believe that one party is on balance better than the other, but that neither party is good enough to be worthy of support.
Ding ding ding ding!
That's exactly where I'm at. The Republicans are, in my opinion, better than the Democrats. However "better" doesn't mean "good." It means "less evil," which is why I refuse to support either party.
Amen. Although I can’t say anymore that Republicans are less evil.
So you don’t agree then.
Amen! But you’re wrong.
— Dee
Republicans defend the 2A, and that's pretty important. They do fight spending as long as they're not in power. I think that makes them a little less evil.
We just fundamentally disagree on which party is worse.
"But to say this theory has collapsed is a stretch, imho."
How is the 'antifa was responsible' theory holding up? A theory many commenters here pretend to believe.
Gee, let's change the subject and claim 'many commenters'!
Fuck off and die; no one is going to click on your website.
Are we not men?!? We are Sevo!
Hey Smegmalung!
Don’t you have more important things to do, instead of thread-shitting here? As San Fran’s foremost homeless hobo, couldn’t you be doing your “squeegee” racket, fighting with the other bums, pooping in the streets, and yelling insane, deluded insults at passers-by?
Smegmalung’s next gig in Gay Ol’ San Fran: Burglary, which San Fran’s media suggests should now be tolerated!
https://www.foxnews.com/media/san-francisco-chronicle-ripped-for-asking-if-residents-should-tolerate-burglaries
San Francisco Chronicle ripped for asking if residents should 'tolerate burglaries'
Next on the Hit Parade for the San Francisco Chronicle: asking if residents should tolerate (even celebrate maybe?), not just burglary, butt also 'child buggery' by Super-Perv-Predator-Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo, AKA “SmegmaLung”.
The below poetry is dedicated to Super-Perv-Predator-Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo, AKA “SmegmaLung”.
He's a real pedo man
Playing with his pedo gland
Dropping his smegma across the land
Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Butt he spews stupid insults at you!
Pedo man, please listen
You don't know what you're missin’
Smegma man, the world is at your command
He's as blind as he can be
Just sees what he wants to see
Pedo man, can you see me at all
Smegma man don't worry
Take your time, don't hurry
Leave it all 'til somebody else
Lends you a hand
Ah, la, la, la, la
Doesn't have a point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Butt he spews stupid insults at you!
Pedo man, please listen
You don't know what you're missin’
Smegma man, the world is at your command
…
The below poetry is dedicated to Super-Perv-Predator-Sevo the Pedo, Hippo in a Speedo,
AKA “SmegmaLung”!
Sitting on a park bench
Eyeing little boys with bad intent
Snot's running down his nose
Greasy fingers smearing shabby clothes
Hey, SmegmaLung!
Drying in the cold sun
Watching as the frilly panties run
Hey, SmegmaLung!
Feeling like a dead duck
Spitting out pieces of his broken luck
Oh, SmegmaLung!
Sun streaking cold
A hateful man wandering lonely
Insulting others the only way he knows
Brain hurts bad as he tries to think
Goes down to the bog to spread his stink
Feeling alone
The army's up the road
Salvation a la mode and a cup of tea
SmegmaLung, my friend
Don't you start away uneasy
You poor old sod
You see, it's only me
By you insulting me,
The rotting goes to thee!
In Sevo’s defense, they’re having a heat wave right now, which means all the parks and beaches and museums and movie theaters are probably crowded. The Giants are out of town.
That leaves nothing to do, really, but go on angry political rants.
It would be easy to disprove with the release of all the video footage...........
You mean video shot on the same sound stage they used to fake the moon landings? Proves nothing.
Who here questions the moon landings?
You brought it up so I have to ask why would you?
Can you say more explicitly what you mean when you say “all the video footage”? All the footage held by whom precisely?
Held by the government, namely the Capitol Police. There’s literally hours of footage. I know you’re not this stupid.
Cellphone footage taken by rioters/attendees must outstrip anything taken by the government by a factor of a thousand. It's not embargoed by the government, either. Maybe there's a compilation on bittorrent, but it seems you are looking for a needle in a haystack. Maybe even a non existent needle.
But the evidence in favor of Ray Epps being an FBI informant is entirely circumstantial and incredibly weak to boot. "He urged people to riot" and "He wasn't arrested" isn't proof.
An Emoting Mind says he finds it hard to believe Epps wasn’t an FBI plant.
An Emoting Mind is "birds of a feather" with an emo emu!
(I hardly ever use the emoticons on my smell phone. If they do NOT have one for an emo emu, they SHOULD have one!)
God you guys are shit at name calling.
It's retarded.
Captain Underpanties agrees!
I know, right?
This is the rot that paranoia creates in the brain.
"But the evidence in favor of Ray Epps being an FBI informant is entirely circumstantial and incredibly weak to boot. "
Wow. You are right Chemjeff. I never thought of that.
Oh wait. I actually did:
"I think you need more than the circumstantial evidence offered at this point to conclude what Epps' involvement was. But to say this theory has collapsed is a stretch, imho."
One of these days, I welcome you to respond to my actual comments. And you could start by demonstrating that you actually read what I wrote. This is the second time in as many days that you have made non-responsive replies to my comments. I know you can do better.
Sorry I misread what you wrote there, I thought you were arguing that the evidence disproving the Epps-is-informant theory should be more than circumstantial.
But I would also add that the theory has "collapsed" because it was never more than a conspiracy theory in the first place. It's collapsed in the same sense that the theory that Elvis is alive and working at a Walmart in Wisconsin has also collapsed.
"because it was never more than a conspiracy theory in the first place."
This seems to be a pretty odd statement. Maybe I am wrong, but you seem to be saying that any theory based on circumstantial evidence is nothing more than a conspiracy theory. Is that correct?
Because, to me, it seems like many theories- conspiratorial or otherwise- start with circumstantial evidence. I mean, here we have an agency with a long, long, long and well documented history of inciting people to do shit. That same agency has been caught on record lying to get FISA warrants. We have a person acting like one of the known informants in the Michigan case. And we have behavior from the FBI that appears to treat him differently than other defendants.
All circumstantial...But to say it is only conspiracy theory seems wrong to me. COVID being a lab leak is based on circumstantial evidence...does that make it a conspiracy theory?
Jeff maintained that it was a conspiracy for like two years…
“I know you can do better.”
Cite?
MSNBC Guest On Republicans: “We are at war with these people”
Roland Martin: “We are at war with these people. These folks are evil. They have allowed evil into their house with Donald Trump. This evil is spreading. And when you are in a war footing, you have to respond accordingly. It is about time Joe Biden got tough. Stop being weak, stop being impotent, quit not fighting back. What these people want to do to this country is destroy democracy.”
Tiffany D Cross: "Obviously Republicans are, I think, the biggest threat to democracy. We don't separate right-wing extremists and Republican Party anymore. These days it feels like we’re not just that the brink of Civil War, but that one has already begun.”
1 Classification: People are divided into "them and us".
2 Symbolization: Naming and identifying members of the group occurs through symbolization.
3 Discrimination: Groups targeted by the state are recipients of systematic discrimination by the state.
4 Dehumanization: One group denies the humanity of the other group. The outgroup are identified as vermin.
5 Organization: State power such as the police and military is mobilized against the outgroup.
6 Polarization: Government broadcasts polarizing propaganda to turn noncommitted against outgroup. <==== Biden's speech
7 Preparation: Official action to remove/relocate people.
8 Persecution: Theft of property, forced displacement, concentration camps, trial massacres.
9 Extermination: Wholesale elimination of the group. It's 'extermination', not murder, to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human.
10 Denial: The government denies that they committed any crimes.
Vermin or insects. Look for a “cockroach” comparison a la RTLM Radio.
Congratulations. You are the mirror image of MSNBC Team Blue partisans.
How so?
Remember, I don't think that millions of Democratic voters are evil. I think that you, specifically you as an individual are evil.
I think this because you advocate and promote the maiming of confused childrens genitalia, and rob them of the ability to procreate.
There's an important difference there. Let's see if you're honest enough to acknowledge it.
I think you are nothing more than a reflection of the people you hate.
I'm an overweight child castration fetishist and late-term abortion fanatic?
lol you routinely declare the Democratic Party to be the embodiment of Nazism.
The complete lack of self awareness is indeed comical.
Parroting back what we say about you doesn't make you sound any less drunk and retarded, sarcasmic.
Cause they’re totalitarian fascist?
Well that depends on whether we are using the dictionary definitions of those words, or whether we are using the right-wing/libertarian definitions of those words.
What definition of fascism do you use?
The one where the government directs the economy while nominally leaving capital in private hands and authority/control is centralized?
Wow that’s horrible. They know this kind of rhetoric is how shit goes hot right?
That’s the desired outcome.
fbi good/fbi bad oscillation wave going crazy!
An undamped harmonic oscilator
I remain undaunted and undamped, damp it all! The Harmonic Convergence is ANY millisecond now! This close to the galactic axis??!!? Why, ANYTHING is bound to happen VERY soon now!
(And then, whatever it is that happens, I will be able to say, "I told you so!")
Wasn’t the Harmonic Convergence in, like, 1987. I distinctly remember sitting at a booth in a Bob’s Big Boy at the exact moment.
GOP considers novel tactic to compel testimony if they win House: Defund a bureaucrat
https://justthenews.com/government/congress/gop-considers-novel-tactic-compel-testimony-if-they-win-house-defund-bureaucrat
Wait, I thought people that ignore congressional subpoenas get arrested and go to jail?
See, this is why they're never going to let the election happen this November.
This weekend there’s been a lot of conservative pundits claiming Brandon’s speech was an attempt to rile up Trump supporters into action. Which of course would be spun into hateful mobs of violent, racist, militia style QAnon monsters trying to destroy America. It would explain the silly-ass lighting and posted Jarheads during the speech, providing an antagonistic mood before the blathering begins.
The asshats certainly behave like they’re finished loosing elections, and have been for a couple of years now. I hope pride comes before the fall for these fucking Democrats.
"Here's a tip: If you have some radical political views and an acquaintance reaches out, encourages you to act on your convictions, and maybe offers to introduce you to a guy who can sell you some bomb parts, don't take him up on it. That guy's almost definitely working for the feds."
Oh shit, Nardz is a federale?
No. Too dumb.
We’ve known that since forever.
Whether sting operations by law enforcement are reasonable is debatable. But the problem with this particular sting operation is that it was carried out for political purposes; that should never happen.
Some crimes are political. Allowing sting operations for crimes against property but not the polity makes little sense.
"Some crimes are political."
Willfully obtuse or abysmally stupid. You decide.
Why not both?
Abysmally stupid. Mtrueman seems to be implying that "politically motivated crimes" justify "politically motivated sting operations", which probably sounds good to someone as superficial and dumb as him.
You misunderstand. Crime against property: sting OK
Crime against polity: sting not OK.
Now what is it about property that merits these underhanded methods? Why shouldn't the polity be afforded the same measure of protection?
I denounce all sting operations, which is more than you can claim.
Well, as you keep demonstrating, you are confusing "crimes against the polity" with "sting operations carried out for political purposes." Meaning, you demonstrate again that you are abysmally stupid.
"you are confusing "crimes against the polity" with "sting operations carried out for political purposes."
Not at all. The difference is clear. Crimes against the polity are perpetrated by criminals. The sting operations are carried out by law enforcement.
I'm excited to learn what you think political crimes are.
Saying let's go brandon
Perpetrating political crimes requires courage and conviction. Saying let's go brandon requires neither.
Assassinations, kidnapping public officials, treason etc. Crimes against property enrich the perpetrators. They are different from crimes against the polity which are aimed at shifting the political landscape and do little to enrich the perpetrators. Snowden and Manning are notable examples of people motivated by political concerns.
Making sense requires intelligence; you're bereft of it.
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank You! -Reason Staff
Yes, some crimes are political. What does that have to do with anything?
Sting operations should never be politically motivated. Meaning, elected officials should never use sting operations in an attempt to improve their chances are reelection or hurt their opponents.
"Yes, some crimes are political. What does that have to do with anything? "
If the crime is political, the investigation and prosecution will, ipso facto, res ipso loquitor, also be political. If the proceedings are not political, sorry, you've got only a plain old crime of a non political nature.
A "politically motivated sting operation" is a sting operation intended to achieve political ends, like damaging the reputation of a political opponent or achieving some kind of advantage in an election. The nature of the crime underlying the sting operation is irrelevant; a sting operation that entraps an opponent in a prostitution charge is a perfectly good politically motivated sting operation, and a sting operation that gets some terrorists of the street is usually not politically motivated.
Thanks for verifying your abysmal stupidity.
Still not as dumb as shrike.
"and a sting operation that gets some terrorists of the street is usually not politically motivated."
You're being willfully naive. A sting operation intended to thwart a crime against the polity is politically motivated. So what's your problem?
Yes, you would think that if you are reasoning at the level of a six year old.
Good god, you're stupid.
You are being willfully naive again. Why the pose? Sting operations against politically motivated crimes are politically motivated. Surely this can't surprise you. You either have an extremely naive view of how police and prosecutors work, or you are just putting on a for whatever reason. And your childish insults bore me.
Keeping politically-motivated terrorists from blowing up shit isn't a "politically motivated sting operation"; it's not politically motivated at all.
On the other hand, trying to pin prostitution or corruption on a political opponent is politically motivated even though the crime itself is not politically motivated.
So your observation is wrong in both directions.
It's not an insult to observe that you have trouble with elementary reasoning.
" it's not politically motivated at all."
Sure it is. The motivation is to protect the polity. What could be clearer than that?
" trying to pin prostitution or corruption on a political opponent"
These people in Michigan were hardly political opponents. And it was conspiracy to kidnap a political figure, clearly a politically motivated crime, rather than prostitution or corruption.
Wowsers. CJ shifted gears so hard once the subject got to 1/6, I think the transmission exploded.
You know who else had a national police agency at his beck and call to entrap opponents?
Pretty much every President but Trump, who was so incompetent he somehow managed to be a victim of his own executive branch for four solid years.
Erich Honecker
We should take up a collection to replace Ciaramella's front door after the feds kick it.
Is it just me, or do they always seem to entrap developmentally disabled adults? The plotters always seem to have an IQ between 60 and 80.
It looked like the case against the Michigan militia members who allegedly plotted to kidnap Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer in October 2020 was going to be another data point in that trend
Obscure song about the Michigan Militia by a group whose drummer may/may have not been a sexual sadist.
He majored in women's studies, so that makes it OK.
Poli Sci. Minored in women's studies.
He obviously gets two get-out-of-jail cards!
It's a relief to see Reason finally mention Ray Epps a year and a half after he and his coconspirators (likely all FBI agents or informants) repeatedly urged Trump supporters to "go into the Capitol", then removed the barriers at the Capitol Grounds, then repeatedly urged the crowd to enter the Capitol Grounds, then broke into the Capitol, and then once again urged and assisted Trump supporters to go into the Capitol.
Perhaps Ray Epps was talking to Nancy Pelosi on those phone calls on Jan 5 and 6.
The irony is that Trump and J. Edgar Hoover are probably more alike than different from an “Unconstitutional-Authoritarian” perspective.
Hoover also loved to possess secret information for primarily blackmail purposes or to coerce a perceived foe. Both were racially-insensitive at best. Neither followed their Oath of Office to uphold the constitutional rule of law.
This might be precisely why Trump stole the WH documents, to hold anyone he chose to over a barrel in business dealing or politics.
The FBI and DOJ should only use the terms “violent-extremists” and “constitutionally-subversive” - clarifying these terms will prevent mission-creep. For example: J Edgar Hoover himself was “constitutionally-subversive” while people he blacklisted (like MLK) were never constitutionally-subversive. Both Trump and Hoover swore an Oath of Office not to do this type of blacklisting.
The term “extremist” alone (out of context) could be used against almost anyone and only the unelected bureaucrat determines what that means. Without clarification this term could apply to the women's rights movement or any other legal protest.
What a surprise to learn that two socialist factions committed to the initiation of deadly force and taking from others are manipulated for that very purpose by the Kleptocracy that created them and handed them guns and badges. If it weren't for the third party I've voted and supported for over 40 years, with demonstrable positive results, I'd be discouraged as all get-out.
Well considering the Feds have probably already hacked Reason's servers, it would be best to just say, "No Comment".
It's (Almost) Always the Feds: How the FBI Fabricates Schemes To Entrap the INNOCENT
Even in the '90s they used to say in the militia movement that, if one of your members started to suggest that you rob a bank, you'd found your FBI mole.
The only thing to do at that point is to kick them out and report them to the police, it's basically the only way to avoid conspiracy charges, given how these things work.
When is Congress going to finish implementing the recommended 100% of the reforms by the “9/11 Commission”?
This taxpayer financed commission was created to remove politics (providing cover for politicians) and to be independent experts.
Although most FBI officials are brave good people, the leadership and bureaucracy could have totally prevented some or all of the 9/11 attacks. One cause was a bloated bureaucracy that didn’t communicate internally within the agency.
The FBI had information from a field office that guys were taking flying lessons with very suspicious circumstances. So suspicious the flight school reported it to the FBI. FBI Headquarters essentially ignored the report from it’s own field office.
Former FBI agent, Michael German, has many great reform ideas. Maybe German should be the next FBI Director?
If Congress won’t complete the “9/11 Commission” reforms why have another taxpayer funded commission on January 6?
What I don't understand is how it's a crime to go along with a government agent just because you thought it was illegal and thought it wasn't a government agent. I thought crime was doing bad things, not thinking you're doing bad things.
It appears the biggest felonies that (even well-meaning) FBI officials perpetrate is “Guilt-By-Association” (felony crime for FBI officials under Title 18 US Code 245 and the First Amendment) and then using “covert” means to bypass constitutional judicial review by judges. Essentially preventing judges from providing oversight.
For example: they seem to use these illegal felony tactics on not just legitimate targets but innocent family members and innocent people in other groups (many with no knowledge or participation in any crimes). They destroy the innocent as collateral damage in their zeal pursuing other targets.
Since these agents bypass judges, their dysfunctional bureaucracy never makes their crime victims whole again. Instead they try to frame the innocents to make their investigations appear legitimate.
Although well-meaning agents, when your job requires destroying innocent Americans in the process, then framing them - that is about as disloyal to one’s Oath of Office as it gets.
Good piece but it is not plausible that there wasn't an FBI sting on Jan 6. And it's lazy to write it off as MAGA conspiracy theories. FBI informants are under no obligation to reveal they work with the FBI, only unless a potential arrest is imminent -- Ray Epps went straight to the FBI first. He has threatened to sue for defamation. Let's see if he goes through with it or not. Considering the FBI's nonstop attacks on Trump, their surveillance of Trump supporters, what happened with the Whitmer case, that intelligence already knew of Jan 6 before it even happened all seem to indicate that it's more likely than not a FBI sting operation. We need better journalists to uncover it, and go after it, not write it off like this writer has done here.
Oh, I see that you Trumpskyites are back to trying to ASSert that all those stolen documents that Deranged & Deluded Donald illegally had in his possession were "Derp Derp Derp planted Derp Derp Derp."