Brickbat: Bad Doggy

A federal judge has dismissed an excessive force lawsuit filed Olivia Sligh against the Conroe, Texas, police department after she was bitten for roughly 62 seconds by a police dog. Body camera video shows the dog ignoring commands by his handler to release her. The judge said it was reasonable for the officers to have the dog attack her "because Sligh refused to comply with orders and physically resisted arrest." Sligh's boyfriend had called 911 for help, saying she was suicidal after her medicine for bipolar disorder was changed.

Comments

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[Fist of Etiquette]

Unpopular take: Dogs that are trained to attack humans are like a toddler with a cocked, loaded pistol. You can instruct them beforehand all you want but ultimately they'll do what they want.

[mad.casual]

Unpopular take: All dogs, trained to attack or not, are like a toddler with no hands and a serrated vice for a mouth. Properly cared for, some-to-most can be trained not to harm people by their own volition, but there's no way to definitively know for sure without someone getting bitten.

Bonus unpopular take: Common sense, ban private ownership of all dogs with more than 10 teeth.

[Brandybuck]

> Bonus unpopular take: Common sense, ban private ownership of all dogs with more than 10 teeth.

Subsidize dog breeders and forgive their student loans.

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[Ajsloss]

Nobody needs that many teeth.

[Wizard4169]

No one needs high-capacity assault dogs.

[Jerryskids]

The dog at least got sent back for additional training, didn't it? Put on desk duty for a couple of weeks?

[SQRLSY One]

The problem here was that the dog trainer had only 3 Master's Degrees in Dog-trainerology... We need to bump that requirement up to 3 PhDs! Plus, it will put money into the economy! Pay for MORE academic programs and then loan forgiveness!

[Gasman]

Wait. At the end of a successful police encounter, isn't the dog supposed to get shot? That is the prevailing script as I recall.

[A Cynical Asshole]

Not when the dog is a police dog Hero. Some dogs are more equal than others.

[Wizard4169]

And yet some cops are also more equal than others. If a private citizen injures or kills a police dog, that's a serious crime. If a cop causes harm or death to a police dog, that's a regrettable accident.

[Vernon Depner]

Cops are good at two things: arresting people and shooting people. If you don't want anyone arrested or shot (and understand that it might by YOU), don't call the cops. They are NOT the people to call for "help", especially with a mentally ill person having a frightening episode.

[Inigo Montoya]

This presumes the person who called asked for police help. More likely it’s the 911 operator, in their infinite wisdom, who decided to send out the cops instead of…oh I don’t know, maybe paramedics — who probably have at least a some training around mental as well as physical health crises, and who also are not usually armed and trained to respond to “non-compliance” with violence.

[mad.casual]

If you think the paramedics won't immediately turn around and get the police involved, you're seriously mistaken. If you think paramedics are something more than just less frequently armed, you'd be mistaken. The handful of Fire/Rescue EMTs I know personally are 100% CCW holders.

Putting them ahead of the cops might work but I give it a 50/50 that, with your preferred sweeping libertarian change, we're talking about EMTs going home safe at night behind a wall of QI guarded by their Union reps, within 10 yrs.

Not disagreeing with any given policy idea, just acknowledging facts and trying to manage expectations (under-promise/over-deliver) wrt libertopia.

[Agammamon]

Paramedics don't have training to handle mental health crisisisisesses - less than cops, actually.

What they also don't have is a get-away-with-shooting people pass.

[MatthewSlyfield]

Especially do not call the cops to "help" someone who is suicidal. The cops are likely to end up "helping" that person to end their life.

[Vernon Depner]

Aren't the cops trained to shoot dogs?

[Davy C]

If a cop is willing to shoot a dog that hasn't bitten anyone yet, they should be willing to shoot their own dog that is actively biting someone when it shouldn't be. (Although I'd actually advocate for restraint rather than shooting bullets into a melee. Was a taser available?)

[Art Stone]

But if a police officer shoots his own dog, he will be charged with murder of a police officer

[Wizard4169]

I wouldn't count on it. After all, a cop who left his dog to die in a hot car merely made a regrettable mistake. Things might be a little different if the dogs could pay union dues.

[Ben of Houston]

That would be a terrible idea given how close the dog was to the woman. Have you seen accuracy statistics?

The dog should have been picked up by its harness or collar and pulled off the woman.

[Inigo Montoya]

When someone breaks a bone, they don’t go to an auto mechanic. Firefighters don’t respond when there’s an armed robbery. Why the f—- do police respond when someone has a mental health crisis?

[MatthewSlyfield]

Because we don't have psychiatric EMTs on standby and someone having a mental health crisis may be dangerous.

[Inigo Montoya]

Firefighters don’t respond when there’s an armed robbery. Why the f—- do police respond when someone has a mental health crisis?

[Mr. Bumble]

So who do you suggest should be called?

[Inigo Montoya]

Paramedics would be a better choice. Even if they can’t do much for a suicidal person, at least they won’t attack them.

[Sheldonius Rex]

What do you do when the "mental health crisis" turns out to just be a violent person being violent and they injure or kill the paramedic?

[MatthewSlyfield]

They could be equipped with tranquillizers and air guns to administer them from a safe distance.

[mad.casual]

So could the cops. Of course, just as above, you don't definitively solve the problem. You just grant the liberty of skipping past "Should they have fired?" to "Should they have used the same tranquilizer dose on a 100 lb. woman that they use on a 350 lb. man?"

[MatthewSlyfield]

You just grant the liberty of skipping past "Should they have fired?" to "Should they have used the same tranquilizer dose on a 100 lb. woman that they use on a 350 lb. man?"

Sounds like a pretty good reason to give the tranq guns to paramedics with training on how to administer drugs, including proper dosing and not to cops.

[Wizard4169]

Except "proper dosing" depends on a lot of factors, not just body weight. What drug(s) are currently in the target's system? What drugs have they used in the past? What allergies or other medical conditions do they have? Do they have any unusual drug reactions? (My stepfather spent some time in psychiatric care. Thorazine turns most people into zombies, but it basically made him into a berserker.) It's not likely that either cops or EMTs would have all this information available. The idea that you can shoot somebody with a dart gun and they'll just immediately fall over, then wake up later with nothing worse than a headache is nothing but a Hollywood myth.

[MatthewSlyfield]

Also giving the tranq guns to paramedics means there is already an ambulance on scene if something goes wrong with the dosing.

[mad.casual]

Still sounds like magic bullet thinking. Tranquilizer guns are intramuscular, which means several seconds to minutes to take affect under normal circumstances. Somebody's liver accustomed to taking tranquilizers maybe longer.

Moreover, you assume what I'm talking about is strictly acute or recoverable. There is no ambulatory treatment for giving a recovering addict a dose of the medicine they're trying to recover from.

Setting physiology aside, tranq guns are still guns. They only have an effective range of some 50-ish feet, assuming outdoor settings, can be thwarted by common, everyday objects and are really only effective on certain parts of the body. Readily foreseeable that there are some situations where you might as well just send the EMTs in with a brick to throw at the person 'suffering an episode'.

[mad.casual]

Again, and as above, not saying "Don't implement a better solution.", just making sure the recommendation isn't "Just use magic bullets!".

[MatthewSlyfield]

Paramedics are not trained for dealing with mental health issues.

[Idaho Bob]

Neither are the cops. Obviously.

[Think It Through]

Maybe no one can be. Maybe the only way to deal with a mentally ill, physically active person is to be physical right back.

It's not like even the best "therapists" have magic words to calm angry crazy people.

[mad.casual]

Maybe the only way to deal with a mentally ill, physically active person is to be physical right back.

Yup. Compassionately, there's always more we could do to help these people. Pragmatically libertarian, there's only so much we can take from the taxpayer and hand to cops or EMTs to throw at these people.

[Wizard4169]

There's maybe not any perfect solution, but that doesn't mean things can't be improved. For instance, maybe cops dealing with a possibly mentally ill person should try talking to them calmly first, instead of barking orders and responding to anything they see as other than instant compliance with force. Just because an extinguisher can't put out every fire, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to pour gasoline onto it.

[Social Justice is neither]

Ghostbusters.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Perhaps people prone to mental health crises should not be out in public.

[Vernon Depner]

Is that you, Misek?

[Art Stone]

Or put on medication rather than trying to solve their problem

[Sheldonius Rex]

Approximately 100% of "bi-polar disorder" patients are women who never learned self control, and six weeks in Saudi Arabia would miraculously cure these chicks with few deleterious side effects.

Prove me wrong. Pro tip: you can't.

[SQRLSY One]

The "mentally ill" should be held responsible for their acts, just like everyone else is! If that makes me "insensitive", and I am accused and convicted of insensitivity... Can I plead insanity?! My insensitivity, after all, is NOT my fault! It is the result of me being the victim of chemical imbalances in my brain!

Oooops! Just you wait to see what drugs they'll shoot me full of, to "cure" my insensitivity!!!

[Vernon Depner]

Prove that you know enough about this to be worth arguing with. Pro tip: you can't.

[TrickyVic (old school)]

Pro tip: You have to prove your premise is correct.

It's not up to the other person to disprove you.

[Wizard4169]

The most cursory research told me that incidence is similar for men and women. Also, I've know bipolar men personally. So, you're wrong. Please do let the door hit you on the way out.

[Earth-based Human Skeptic]

Clearly police dogs need more training in psychologic diagnoses and interventions.

[Liberty_Belle]

Why would anyone think being bit by a dog would make anybody more likely to be compliant ? I guarantee being bitten by a dog would make me magnitudes more hysterical than whatever state I was in originally.

[Vernon Depner]

You have to yell STOP RESISTING while the dog bites or it doesn't work.

[mad.casual]

It makes you more compliant with the officers in pretty much the same way two officers make you more compliant with officers than one. No personal problem with hysteria if a dog attacked me. Unlike people who can use both hands and feet to attack and can shift focus between the various points relatively whimsically, a single dog really only has one weapon. But, focusing on the dog's weapon guarantees I'm not focusing on all the other potential weapons/sources of harm.

[mad.casual]

No personal problem with hysteria if a dog attacked me.

No guarantees that my reaction to the dogs won't generate hysteria in others one way or the other.

[Cloudbuster]

Sligh's boyfriend had called 911 for help, saying she was suicidal after her medicine for bipolar disorder was changed.

He must have wanted her dead.

[Vernon Depner]

I didn't think of that—might've been a "swatting".

[Wizard4169]

Maybe, but keep in mind that's there a depressingly large number of people who still believe the whole "protect and serve" line, despite copious evidence to the contrary. Maybe they're naive, or maybe they're lawn order types who are convinced that cops are infallible judges of guilt who would never, ever target them. "Just do what you're told!" Although none of them has ever explained to me how you're supposed to do that when you've got multiple cops screaming mutually contradictory orders.

[Art Stone]

Once again, don't call the police if someone you love is having a mental health issue

[Carey Allison]

I have heard the rumor that killing a police K-9 will result in the filing of charges of murdering a police officer. This sounds like a tall tale or a gross exaggeration, but in our down-the-rabbit-hole world, it may be true.

If it is true, it is the prime reason - and absolute justification - for jury nullification. Any juror who would find the killer of a dog guilty of murder "of a police officer" is the personification of a brain-washed serf who feels he must kowtow to any and all demands of the the all-powerful state. The purpose of "juries of one's peers" is specifically to rein in this sort of overcharging and penalties.

[Wizard4169]

No, you won't be charged with murder. Legally speaking, dogs are property, not people, even police dogs. However, you certainly can be charged, and several states have toughened penalties in recent years. The exact charges and sentencing vary a lot, depending on the jurisdiction. Killing a canine fed can get you up to ten years. In California, you can get a year in jail and a $10k fine. In other states, you could theoretically be looking at twenty years or even more. Here's an incomplete but helpful guide.