South Carolina Targets Free Speech in Its Attempt To Limit Abortion Access
Billboards remind state residents that controversial speech enjoys First Amendment protection.

One challenge prohibitionists face is that not everybody supports their prohibitions. Many people under their nominal authority want access to what's forbidden, no matter what the law says.
Aware that the procedure remains available elsewhere, South Carolina lawmakers seeking a near-complete ban on abortion propose to forbid speech about terminating pregnancies to prevent residents of the Palmetto State from learning of such services. The recently rebooted Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) is reminding `them that speech that politicians don't like is not only the best speech but is also protected by the First Amendment.
"Speech about abortion is free speech–The First Amendment," reads the advertisements placed across South Carolina in "a six-figure billboard campaign" by FIRE, which recently adopted a new name and expanded its scope beyond academia to embrace broad civil liberties advocacy.
The billboards are going up in Charleston, Columbia, Greenville, and Myrtle Beach as South Carolina lawmakers debate not just new restrictions on abortion in the wake of the U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, but also restrictions on informing women about how to terminate pregnancies beyond the law's reach. Ambitious and almost certainly unconstitutional proposed legislation would prohibit "providing information to a pregnant woman, or someone seeking information on behalf of a pregnant woman, by telephone, internet, or any other mode of communication regarding self-administered abortions or the means to obtain an abortion, knowing that the information will be used, or is reasonably likely to be used, for an abortion." Violation of the law would be a felony, punishable by up to 25 years in prison depending on the specific offense.
The proposed censorship of abortion information comes as state legislators consider tighter restrictions in the wake of Dobbs. Language now being debated would ban all abortions, except for those necessary to preserve the life and health of the mother. Even some anti-abortion lawmakers find that too restrictive and are holding out for the inclusion of exceptions for abortions in the case of rape or incest.
Whatever the final form, though, tighter restrictions on abortion are likely to send some women looking for abortion-inducing drugs, or for information on traveling out of state to end pregnancies. Preventing such end runs is the goal of the companion bill banning information "regarding self-administered abortions or the means to obtain an abortion." The language was clearly inspired by model legislation crafted by the National Right to Life Committee as "a robust enforcement mechanism" to ensure that state-level abortion bans are effective. That model has already been dismissed by legal experts as almost certainly unconstitutional.
"In Bigelow v. Virginia (1975), the Supreme Court struck down a state law that prohibited encouraging or prompting an abortion by the sale or circulation of any publication," First Amendment lawyer Robert Corn-Revere noted last month for Reason. "The Court held the First Amendment protects such speech. It observed that, just as Virginia lacked constitutional authority to prevent its residents from traveling to New York to obtain abortions, it could not, 'under the guise of exercising internal police powers, bar a citizen of another State from disseminating information about an activity that is legal in that State.'"
Even as they consider a ban on speech that might help women end their pregnancies, many South Carolina lawmakers seem to understand that the project is a non-starter, destined to perish in the courts after the inevitable challenge.
"[Sen. Richard] Cash's bill has received a lot of attention since he introduced it June 28, shortly after the U.S. Supreme Court overturned nearly 50 years of precedent on abortion rights and left the legality for state lawmakers to decide," reports the Post and Courier, which notes significant opposition even among pro-life lawmakers. "But it's not expected to get any traction."
So, if the censorship bill is not expected to pass, why is FIRE making a fuss? Well, legislators have a history of surprising people by enacting legislation that observers consider ridiculous, but which become law despite all predictions and common sense. Right now, youth shooting teams and publications are awaiting the outcome of lawsuits against the state of California over a broadly written law that bans "marketing" guns to minors but encompasses speech about policy and shooting sports.
"A gun magazine publisher, for instance—or a gun advocacy group that publishes a magazine—would likely be covered as a 'firearm industry member,' because it was formed to advocate for use or ownership of guns, might endorse specific products in product reviews, and might carry advertising for guns," UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh cautioned in testimony before the legislation passed.
Holding the line now is a good policy so that somebody doesn't have to risk a felony conviction in the future in order to wage an after-the-fact legal battle. Complacency is just a bad idea when liberty is at stake.
Plus, the debate over the censorship measure is an opportunity to remind Palmetto State residents that there are alternatives to obeying restrictive laws. Discussions of free speech about abortion can quickly turn into conversations about the content of that speech, pointing women towards out-of-state clinics and resources like Plan C, maintained by the National Women's Health Network, which offers advice for getting mail-order abortion pills. That is, an attempt to muzzle speech becomes a means of amplifying the targeted speech to reach a wider audience.
Fundamentally, though, whatever your opinion of abortion or other controversial issues, frustrating control freaks' efforts to muzzle the sharing of information should be something we can all get behind.
"These proposals are a chilling attempt to stifle free speech in South Carolina," points out FIRE Legal Director Will Creeley. "Whether you agree with abortion or not is irrelevant. You have the right to talk about it."
Interestingly, South Carolina lawmakers' efforts to tighten abortion restrictions may falter based on the state's own constitutional protections. On August 17, the South Carolina Supreme Court temporarily blocked enforcement of a 2021 law limiting abortions that went into effect with the Dobbs decision.
"At this preliminary stage, we are unable to determine with finality the constitutionality of the Act under our state's constitutional prohibition against unreasonable invasions of privacy," the court unanimously ruled.
Abortion may or may not stay legal in South Carolina, but the state's residents are destined to a vigorous and very informative conversation about the issue, and about speech itself.
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Sure. You should also be allowed to advertise cigarettes, or vape products, which are also legal but restricted in the state. If the ACLU had a stronger history of advocating for the free speech of nicotine products, and their right to speak freely, maybe I’d be less cynical about them.
State shouldn’t ban this speech. There’s a lot more speech restrictions they need to fold back.
The ACLU's not here man. Although, you could be completely forgiven for mistaking the 'recently rebooted' FIRE for the ACLU.
Has FIRE gone woke? I've noticed articles about them taking on the defense of leftist priorities, but it has seemed to be consistent with their original principles. I have zero issues with the billboard pictured especially because it takes no obvious side on the issue.
On the subject, I'm actually curious how far free speech rights extend when it comes to instigating and aiding the commission of a crime. If I talk to someone contemplating murder and give them an actionable plan for how to commit the crime and get away with it then am I fine legally? Incitement to violence is a crime and ironically exactly what Reason is hyperventilating over Trump about. When is speech just speech and when is it a violation of law or action that violates another's rights?
I'm not in favor of the legislature banning speech regarding abortion, but I do see a legal rationale for certain limitations. If killing a fetus is a crime then at what point does assisting in that killing become a crime?
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The billboard itself isn't the problem. Nobody is telling them they can't put up more billboards or advertise this slogan since it's weighing in on prospective legislation. What's at issue is the legislation itself and whether its restrictions are unconstitutional.
The legislation basically bans people outside of the state from advertising abortion services in South Carolina. What's really problematic is that they want to make it illegal to advise someone about where it's legal elsewhere and what options they have. That would be like making it illegal in New York to talk about how cigarette taxes are so much lower in North Carolina that it's worth an 8 hour drive down to the border to stock up on cartons to bring back. Or talking about how prostitution and gambling are legal in Nevada. You can't criminalize people for talking about the legality of issues in other states.
I guess I was just struck by the idea that if the billboard showed someone smoking a cigarette, with the word "Camel" on it, if there'd be anyone advocating for Camel's free speech rights.
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Well this bans private individuals from speaking, not commercial interests. Cigarette ads are commerce and regulated rightly or wrongly, but if I as a private citizen put up a billboard saying "smoke cigarettes, they're good for you" that's private speech and certainly would, or at least should, be protected just like the billboard I drive by every workday that says "repent to Jesus or burn for eternity"
The law almost had an interesting constitutional question, because the first clause was about banning providing information on self-administered abortions. That, at least, seems a bit interesting, as such self-administered abortions would presumably occur within the state (if you leave the state, might as well go to a clinic) and therefore would be illegal. The second clause would seem to ban giving info on leaving the state, so can't possibly be directly related to a crime, so is a lot less interesting.
General information about self administered abortions would presumably fall under the same category as stuff like lock picking manuals, anarchists cookbook, etc. so would be legal. Individualized consulting on abortion may be a bit more complicated, if it was made clear that the person was seeking to commit a crime within the state, as opposed to merely had morbid curiosity or seeking to leave the state to do it legally. Probably would be near impossible to successfully prosecute if you had good enough lawyers whispering in your ear and every conversation, but the intimidation would serve the legislature's purpose.
Christ, you're a moron. Has FIRE "gone woke"? You view their advocacy as being in support of "leftist" priorities? Put down this tribal bullshit already.
Rest assured, FIRE still devotes most of their time and resources on the culture war issues you no doubt prefer they be fighting for. Speech codes, DEI policies, all the rest. They're just pivoting from education to broader cultural issues that implicate fundamental free speech rights, to try to compete with the ACLU on their own turf. Which is fine, good for them. If we can get conservatives to send more of their money for the defense of freedom, rather than to line Trump's pockets and finance his legal defense, we're all better off.
As to your question - providing information to someone in order to help facilitate their commission of a crime, with that intention, can pretty clearly be outlawed. There would be no constitutional issue with a South Carolina law prohibiting the provision of information about places in South Carolina where someone in South Carolina can get an abortion not permitted by South Carolina law. The problem is when the law goes further and tries to stop out-of-staters from providing that kind of information for out-of-state activities that are legal out-of-state.
The anti-abortion group that drafted this proposed law was aware of that limitation, and tried to steer clear of it. But the problem with Republicans these days is that they're far too eager to whip up the culture war on this point, so they took that draft law and thought - "Oh, hey! We can be even more extreme on this issue if we add a long-arm provision!" And so now they're musing over something that would likely be unconstitutional even after Dobbs. If it passes, likely they'll be hoping that it'll have enough of a chilling effect on would-be information providers that they'll self-censor, rather than deal with criminal charges and proceedings. Which is how, y'know, people who believe in liberty and freedom behave.
One of the problems with abortion being a pure state level issue is citizenship. Wouldn't surprise me if South Carolina grants South Carolina citizenship to a fetus at conception. So an abortion can become grounds for extradition and we're going to have 14th amendment issues
Uh...no. If it's not a crime in the state in which it occurs, it's not a crime. There's no grounds for extradition.
This.
The limitation of federalism is that other states have the exact same opportunities as yours does. Do you really think any state would accept the laws of another state being valid in their state?
Also (but I'm not a lawyer), I don't think people are citizens of individual states. They are US citizens and they are residents of (in this case) South Carolina. South Carolina can't grant or rescind citizenship.
That brings up a couple interesting questions. If a fetus is only recognized as a person in specific states, is that only valid in those states? Related would be if a fetus isn't recognized as a US citizen, are they protected by the Constitution?
For that matter, can a state deny residency to someone due to actions that were legal in the state they did it in, but not in the "home" state?
It seems like federalism would invalidate any effort by totalitarian states to export their coercion, but maybe not. Does anyone know?
We actually have a constitution here in SC, and we are considered to be citizens of this state if we're lawful US citizens permanently residing in this state. If you just pass through the state or stop by for a month or two you are not a citizen, you are a tourist or resident, once you take up permanent residence here you are a citizen of this state. Our constitution mentions "Every citizen of the United States and of this State" a number of times.
That's interesting that there's a difference between residents and citizens. I wonder if it's the difference between landowners and non-landowners? Does owning your house automatically make you a citizen?
If you permanently reside in it. Vacation home, rental home, no.
So is it similar to residency in my state (Delaware), which doesn't have citizenship as far as I know, but with a different name? Or do you have citizens and residents, each with different rights and responsibilities?
FIRE has not gone "woke", but with the ACLU gone AWOL, FIRE has taken itself to be the FLA defending the First Amendment and our basic civil liberties.
"...I'm actually curious how far free speech rights extend when it comes to instigating and aiding the commission of a crime."
Doesn't matter, at least in my mind. Let's just say Georgia allowed 18-year-olds to buy beer. Should a billboard in SC advertising that fact be illegal? I've lived in SC right across from Augusta GA. Fireworks were legal in SC, but not GA, but I would see stuff advertised on GA billboards to come to the store right across the bridge into SC to buy them. If abortion is legal elsewhere, then information on where they are legal should never be restricted. (I'm pro-life BTW.)
IMO, this is some seriously messed-up thinking. What's worse is both sides are for this kind of crap as long as it advances their agenda. That is what is scary.
"What's worse is both sides are for this kind of crap as long as it advances their agenda"
There's the real problem. The R's claim to be the party of rights, constitution, smaller government and constitutional spending, but the truth is that they are just against D's trampling our rights, ignoring the constitution, increasing the size and scope of the federal government and spending like drunken teenagers with stolen credit cards, it's fine when they do all of that. The only real difference between the D's and the R's is that the D's no longer even pretend to be about any of that while the R's maintain the pretense that they are.
Good point. I don't recall any free speech advocates opposing banning commercials for cigarettes.
But to put the shoe on another foot, and I have to admit I'm uncertain whether the following legislation would be unconstitutional or not - I leave it to other commenters to opine.
Ambitious and almost certainly unconstitutional proposed legislation would prohibit "providing information to a person, or someone seeking information on behalf of another person, by telephone, internet, or any other mode of communication regarding how to kill someone or the means to hire someone to kill another person, knowing that the information will be used, or is reasonably likely to be used, for a murder." Violation of the law
would be a felony, punishable by up to 25 years in prison depending on the specific offense.
Is it illegal to give advice on how to murder someone? Should it be?
Are murder mysteries illegal? Crime shows on TV? Don't shows like NCIS actually provide information on what not to do if you're going to commit a crime? Maybe the Nancy Drew series should be yanked from shelves and burned.
Fanatics who worshit God or GAWD (AKA those who believe that Government Almighty's Wrath Delivers) will do ANYTHING to worshit the Sacred Fartilized Egg Smell (only if it contains explicitly HUMAN DNA though). Since said Egg Smell has a "soul" or "human rights", or "whatever" it is that justifies them becoming Buttinskies and Nosenheimers... It should NOT surprise us that they are ALSO totally delighted to tell us what we may, and may not, talk about... In order to save our souls!!!
THEY MEAN US WELL!!!!
So human beings have no intrinsic moral worth? That is essentially what you are waxing sarcastic about.
They do. And they attain that worth the second they pop out the womb.
Ah, a believer in the mystical birth canal, I see.
That isn't true actually, but I will grant you that is a perception. Sometimes stereotypes are created to smear or denigrate a group and lots of untrue things are said about that group to justify the stereotype.
You're aware that you don't have to be a fringe religious fundamentalist to believe that abortion is homicide, right? Even atheists can be pro-life.
Anti-abortionists are authoritarians who are willing to betray the most basic American principles to force others to do what they want?
Gee, what a surprise.
Yep. They've always told you they're fascists. People are just starting to wake up to it is all.
Yeah, it's not like we didn't just have a Senator openly advocate for banning crisis pregnancy centers because they don't provide abortion services.
The proposed SC law is wrong. That hardly means that anti-abortionists have some sort of monopoly on authoritarian overreach on the issue.
I never said they have a monopoly, and whataboutism isn't a valid argument in favor of censorship.
There are plenty of other authoritarians in the world. Anti-abortionists just refuse to admit that they are, by definition, authoritarians.
If all it takes to be an authoritarian is to oppose abortion on-demand, that's a pretty low bar. Does it matter to what extent you oppose killing your offspring in utero? The vast majority of Americans, even self-identified pro-choicers, find late-term abortions morally abhorrent and barbaric, so do those people qualify as authoritarians to your all-rational Objectivist mind?
Forcing others to act according to your morality as opposed to their own is authoritarianism. Especially when almost no one believes that life begins at conception.
Anti-abortionists are just that: anti-abortion. People who oppose third trimester abortions (like me) are pro-choice.
Abortion on demand is a propaganda phrase. It has no real meaning, since all legal abortions are, by definition, on demand. No one has ever gotten an abortion they didn't ask for.
Prosecuting a murderer may very well be forcing a morality on someone who is opposed to it, if they believe it was justifiable homicide. The criminal law courts don't inquire into a defendant's moral code, and some people don't, in fact, have a problem with third-trimester abortion, including many pro-choice libertarians. If something is "on-demand," it means there are no provisos or restrictions, no need to supply reasons or offer justification.
Murder isn't a crime because it's immoral. That's not the basis upon which murder (or kidnapping, assault, etc.) is illegal.
Legislation based upon morality is bad law. If you can't make a convincing argument without invoking morality, you can't make a convincing argument, period. Which is why almost no one believes a fertilized egg is a person with rights.
And no, on demand means just that. Anti-abortionists claim it means more, but then use it indiscriminately to describe the vast majority of people who don't believe in abortion without restrictions.
Accusing pro-choice advocates of being for "abortion on demand" is dishonest and inaccurate, since even fewer people support unrestricted abortion than support calling a fertilized egg a person. And almost no one supports that.
There isn't any need to provide reasons or justifications for abortion. The onus is on anti-abortionists to prove that there is a valid reason to make it illegal, since they are the ones who want to constrain the liberty of others. And they have failed to make a convincing argument, as evidenced by the almost complete lack of support for banning abortion completely.
Even rape- and incest-only exceptions fail to be convincing, as evidenced by their lack of support. And it isn't a messaging problem, since anti-abortionists have spent billions making their case. It's a message problem; people don't buy the argument.
Which is why anti-abortioninst have to be authoritarians. When given the option of making their own decisions, they choose to support abortion being legal.
Yes, it's shocking. All those pregnancy assistance centers they vandalized after Roe v Wade was reversed.
Oh, wait...
If you are making some kind of point about anti-abortionists not being violent, I got some news for you.
Not the point I was making.
What do unrelated crimes have to do with restricting free speech and trying to criminalize legal behavior in other states?
Non-sequitors are a losing defense.
If criminalizing behavior that is legal in other states is inherently wrong, then where would you have stood on the slavery question?
Stop with the slavery nonsense. Slavery is completely unconnected to abortion. If there is any relevance, it is that slavery went form being considered morally acceptable to morally unacceptable, while abortion has gone from morally unacceptable to morally acceptable.
Because when presented with arguments that slavery was immoral, people were convinced as opposed to when people were presented with arguments that abortion was immoral, they weren't convinced.
First, abortion didn't just go from being generally morally unacceptable to generally morally acceptable, and public opinion has remained fairly consistent since 1973. Second, even if it had, shifts in popular attitudes don't prove or define moral progress; societal consensus is irrelevant to ethical questions, unless you're some species of cultural relativist, which, being a Randian, I doubt you are.
Third, no, not "they." You are the one not convinced by pro-life arguments (not that you were ever the least bit open to them). Don't speak on behalf of mainstream America when you represent only your warped Objectivist self.
"abortion didn't just go from being generally morally unacceptable to generally morally acceptable, and public opinion has remained fairly consistent since 1973"
Yes, opinions on abortion have remained consistantly pro-choice since they started tracking it, despite massive efforts by anti-abortionists. People who believe that abortion should be illegal in all cases have been the fringe that whole time.
I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that at some point abortion was considered immoral by the majority of people. But if you don't want to accept that, we can say that it has always been considered morally acceptable, since that's what every public opinion poll has shown.
"Second, even if it had, shifts in popular attitudes don't prove or define moral progress; societal consensus is irrelevant to ethical questions"
So you think that if you ask someone what they believe you should assume they aren't telling the truth? Or that they aren't aware of abortion as an issue? Or they don't have the ability to make considered moral judgements for themselves? Or they don't have enough information about anti-abortion beliefs?
The only way you can ignore the 50 years of consistent, informed, stable, multi-generational moral beliefs of a large population repeatedly asked the same questions over decades is if you believe that the only people capable of forming moral conclusions are those who believe as you do.
The vast majority of Americans who have come to a different conclsion are what? Lying? Incomepetent? Incapable of moral decisions?
"Third, no, not "they." You are the one not convinced by pro-life arguments (not that you were ever the least bit open to them). Don't speak on behalf of mainstream America when you represent only your warped Objectivist self."
I am not convinced by anti-abortion arguments because the idea that a potential life at conception (27% chance) should be allowed to suppress the medical decision-making rights of a living, breathing human being doesn't make sense to me (and most Americans).
If you choose to believe it and live your life that way, great. No one should stop you. But you shouldn't be allowed to force everyone else to live by your faith-based opinion (as in there isn't sufficient objective proof that establishes your belief as a reasonable basis for legislation).
Mainstream Americans believe abortion should be legal. Full stop. Even including people who believe that the only exceptions should be rape, incest, and the life of the mother in the anti-abortion group, Americans reject anti-abortion beliefs by over 2:1.
When people tell you what they believe, especially over 5 decades, it is as close to truth as possible in opinion research. There is no reason to assume that a huge swath of Americans have been lying for decades. There is no reason to assume that they're not informed, especially given the massive investment that anti-abortionists have made to try to convince people.
Your argument against the overwhelming evidence that the vast majority of Americans reject your beliefs boils down to this: you are morally right and everyone who disagrees is wrong. And that justifies using the power of the government to force those who disagree with you to live your way.
That's called authoritarianism. Technically totalitarianism.
"...willing to betray the most basic American principles..."
What are those principles? A right to Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of happyness?"
Does an embryo or fetus not have a right to life? I know many would say no, but then the question is why? The mother has a right to terminate because it's her body? Well, the entity in her womb is a completely different entity separate from her. It has its own DNA. It is NOT just a piece of tissue.
Why don't we roll the issue back a bit further? How does that embryo or fetus get there? Do we all live in the middle ages and we don't have access to birth control? Maybe people are just stupid? Do you think we could roll back the number of unwanted pregnancies by 50%? 75%? How about 90%? If so would this be an issue then?
"What are those principles? A right to Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of happyness?"
Since a fetus isn't a person, tbey don't have any pf those rights. But free speech is about as central to American beliefs as you get. Plus anti-abortionists say they love federalism, but apparently only when they like the results.
If you want to make the argument that a fetus is a person with rights, establish that first. Then you can use it as a basis for other arguments.
"Does an embryo or fetus not have a right to life?"
No, they don't. Because they aren't people legally, morally, or logically.
I get that you believe that you are so righteous and superior that everyone else must accept and abide by your personal beliefs. That's called hubris.
After 50 years of well-funded efforts, your argument has failed to convince even a quarter of Americans that your belief makes sense. That's why you have to be authoritarians. Because otherwise people keep making their own moral decisions for themselves and you can't accept that.
Reasonable people don't agree with you. Accept it and go back to coercing people to behave the way you want.
"Does an embryo or fetus not have a right to life?"
No, they don't. Because they aren't people legally, morally, or logically."
Not even a fetus at 39 weeks gestation? How about 40 weeks? How about 24 weeks?
I am pro choice but I recognize that your argument simply doesn't hold water. There has to be a bit of compromise on the issue. Prohibitions against abortion after 12 weeks gestation is OK by me. At "some point" that fetus is a person that can't simply be murdered at will.
Before viability, they aren't people legally, morally, or logically. After that, in my opinion, they aren't people legally but are people morally and logically.
The idea that a fertilized egg is a person is, to most people, absurd. Same with the idea that a fetus isn't a person until the first breath. Those two positions, combined, account for less than 25% of all Americans.
So I agree. Somewhere between the absolutists is a reasonable, logical, and moral point where most people can at least see a sensible argument that supports it.
Where is that point? It boils down to one question: is it relevant if a fetus has a 0% chance of survival?
If you believe that the potential for existence in the future, no matter how small, is equivelent to the ability to exist *right now* than you will never accept the relevance of 20 weeks or viability.
There's a huge problem with claiming relevance in something like the development of a heart or some other single aspect of human physiology. What is the logic for that? A heart without lungs isn't a person and can't survive. Same with a brain, a liver, at least one kidney, etc. Even the brain, with minimal activity detectable quite early, isn't developed enough to manage the body until about 24 weeks.
If you want to claim organs are important, you have to acknowledge that they only work together. So that would reinforce the idea that you have to have all of the necessary organs functioning to argue life, not just the first one.
I don't see the logic in 12 weeks (or 15 or 6, for that matter). 21 weeks (the earliest a fetus has ever been delivered and survived) has a strong logic to it. As does 26 weeks (when over 50% of fetuses survive).
How do you see things? Is your 12 week line the point after which you would feel conflicted or is there a developmental milestone that you feel is significant at that point?
I agree completely with Nelson's reply, but I would like to add something.
Not even a fetus at 39 weeks gestation? How about 40 weeks? How about 24 weeks?
The point of elective abortion is to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. That the embryo or fetus dies as a result is not. By the time you get late in the third trimester, I would think that terminating the pregnancy early (if that is desired) would most easily accomplished by delivery, not some procedure that kills the fetus. Whether inducing labor or performing a C-section, I don't see how that would be any more dangerous or traumatic for the woman than any other method of terminating the pregnancy.
Basically, the question of whether an abortion at 39 weeks that kills the fetus would be morally acceptable is moot since I can't imagine any ethical doctor agreeing to perform one when delivering it alive would be simpler. A moral line does need to be drawn somewhere, and I've already said that I agree with Nelson's position. But in the end, the line is best decided by the ethics of the people involved. If there must be a law limiting the choice to end an unwanted pregnancy, then 20-24 weeks or 'viability' would be reasonable, in my view.
"Basically, the question of whether an abortion at 39 weeks that kills the fetus would be morally acceptable is moot since I can't imagine any ethical doctor agreeing to perform one when delivering it alive would be simpler. "
Yet abortions post-viability occur and Democrats even tried to pass a bill recently to codify that.
Yet abortions post-viability occur and Democrats even tried to pass a bill recently to codify that.
How often, and why do those abortions occur? Are they truly elective abortions, or was there a medical need? And what do you mean by "codify"? I'd be interested in the specifics.
There have been no medically unnecessary IDX procedures reported since Dr. George Tiller was assassinated in 2009. It's a red herring.
There is no such thing as a "medically necessary" IDX procedure. The murder of Dr. George Tiller was about as tragic as the death of Dr. Josef Mengele.
There are several thousand medically necessary IDXs performed every year.
Claiming the killing of a human being is a good thing because you and a small cadre of like-minded zealots can't accept that most people disagree with you is highly illuminating.
You are a terrible, morally bankrupt human being. Murder is wrong. Attacking and killing abortion doctors, clinics, and workers because of your political and moral beliefs is the textbook definition of terrorism.
I didn't say it was "good." I said it wasn't tragic.
And, no, you are incorrect. Intact D&E is never medically necessary. You are the one buying the propaganda.
Terrorism (the attack on Dr. Tiller, the Atlanta Olympic bombing, the various murders, bombings, shootings, and arsons at abortion clinics, etc.) is, using the mildest word possible, tragic. Also horrific, inexcusable, evil, and unjustifiable.
And you are sadly misinformed about IDX. There are a large number of conditions, some that cause the fetus to fail at some point in the pregnancy, some that will cause the painful death of the fetus soon after birth, some that threaten the life of the mother, some that threaten the long-term health of the mother, some that require a balancing of the potential damage to one or both, and ideopathic stillbirth just to name a few, that require an IDX after the second trimester or the normal point of viability.
Anyone who claims there is no medical reason for an IDX in the third trimester is either ignorant (intentionally or otherwise), someone intellectually or cognitively incapable of recognizing anything other than black or white, or a zealot. So which are you?
It is nice that the pro-abort side has rediscovered free speech, now that they are on the back foot legally, after decades of using the law to limit protests at abortion clinics and forcing crisis pregnancy centers to carry information on how to obtain abortions. Oh wait, they are now trying to make crisis pregnancy centers illegal, they can still get bent.
Second Amendment may protect the First, but it is the First Amendment that protects me saying this. Imagine a Second Amendment without the First. It's nonsense.
It's the First Amendment that lets me talk about woodchippers and politicians in the same sentence.
Or ropes and politicians in the same sentence:)
"Imagine a Second Amendment without the First. It's nonsense."
Hardly. Without a second, there is no first. Governments that do not fear their citizenry have precisely zero qualms about utterly stomping on their rights.
Strange. There are many, many countries with equivelent rights to the First Amendment that don't have anything like the Second Amendement. It's almost like the Second Amendment has nothing to do with the First.
The Second Amendment is important because it is part of the Bill of Rights and it should be protected as an integral part of America. But it doesn't protect any other rights. If the government wants to do something nefarious, you and your AR-15 aren't going to stop it.
The thing that protects our rights is our insistence on our leaders respecting them. While that doesn't seem to be going so well right now, I'm sure the Gaoap will rediscover integrity sooner or later. We made it through Nixon and McCarthy, we'll make it through this.
Yawn
is it legal to provide information to your friend about how to commit a murder? no, that would be conspiracy to commit murder, which is a felony.
There are books out there that teach how to kill people. Under what conditions would this be illegal?
One thing about laws and stuff being illegal is that many times the laws on the books are actually unconstitutional, but have never been challenged.
Just because it's legal doesn't make it right, nor just because it's illegal doesn't make it wrong.
Just don't mention Alex Jones and the quiet death of free speech when it is actually a difficult principle to defend. Also, make sure to fall into one of the two culture war trenches on this (abortion) so you don't vote libertarian, otherwise we might actually start respecting free speech again.
Crime-facilitating speech, IIRC, is not protected.
New Yorkers advertising in SC about all the wonderful abortions available in NY?
Well, why not make it illegal for SC citizens to have abortions anywhere, then ban crime facilitating speech from NY.
Because SC's authority ends at their state line?
Interesting, because the US government can often wield power over it citizens abroad, so what automatically makes a state's authority over its citizens end at the state line?
In the age of dueling, some states had laws against dueling and tried to stop evasions of the law by banning going out of the state to have one's duel.
A state is not the US government.
Wasn't this question answered 157 years ago to the tune of over 600,000 lives on all sides?
Yes, they all died in defense of abortion.
Butter up 80% Potatoes up 55% Juice up 36% Rice up 25% Milk up 25% Cheese up 24% Lumber up 19% Coffee up 20% Cotton up 16% Eggs up 172% Salmon up 60% Pork/Hogs up 41% Lithium for Batteries up 386% Coal up 134% Natural Gas for Heating up 125% Heating Oil up 67% Oil up 200%
Prices are information too and pointing them out is also your right to freedom of expression. Also, when government tries to force prices to be more or less than supply and demand, it is effectively exercising censorship. This form of censorship creates distortions in the economy such as surplus with price floors and shortages with price ceilings.