Supreme Court Says High School Coach's Postgame Prayers Are Protected Free Speech
A 6–3 majority sees it as noncoercive and not a violation of the Establishment Clause.

The Supreme Court ruled today that a high school football coach has a First Amendment right to lead a voluntary postgame prayer on the field and that a school district cannot punish him for it.
In a 6–3 decision, the Court determined that Joseph Kennedy, a former assistant coach at Bremerton High School in Washington state, was within his First Amendment rights and not acting in his capacity as a school official when he prayed on the 50-yard line at football games and permitted others (including students) to join him. As such, Kennedy was not causing the school to violate the Establishment Clause and endorse a particular religion.
The majority decision for Kennedy v. Bremerton School District, written by Justice Neil Gorsuch and joined by Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito, Clarence Thomas, Amy Coney Barrett, and Brett Kavanaugh, leans heavily on evidence and statements that no student was coerced or ever said they felt coerced to participate in these postgame prayers. Gorsuch observes that it doesn't appear that the method that Kennedy engaged in prayer caused anybody to feel as though he were pushing his religion on students as a coach:
This Court has long recognized as well that "secondary school students are mature enough … to understand that a school does not endorse," let alone coerce them to participate in, "speech that it merely permits on a nondiscriminatory basis." … Of course, some will take offense to certain forms of speech or prayer they are sure to encounter in a society where those activities enjoy such robust constitutional protection. But "[o]ffense … does not equate to coercion."
Gorsuch rejects the idea that "any visible religious conduct by a teacher or coach should be deemed—without more and as a matter of law—impermissibly coercive on students" as "a sure sign that our Establishment Clause jurisprudence had gone off the rails." He argues that such a position isn't neutral at all. It would preference secular speech and repress religious speech, a violation of the First Amendment. He sees this case differently from other examples—like a member of a church reciting a prayer during a graduation speech or a school broadcasting a prayer over a public address system prior to a football game. Those were examples where the school was making religious expression a part of an event. Courts have seen this as an impermissible violation of the Establishment Clause. That's not what happened in this case.
That's how the majority sees the facts. But the dissenters in this case, justices Sonia Sotomayor, Elena Kagan, and Stephen Breyer, see the very details of what happened here differently from how Gorsuch presents them in the majority opinion. Gorsuch's opinion presents Kennedy as "engaging in a brief, quiet, personal religious observance." Sotomayor, who wrote the dissent, writes that this characterization is wrong, and Gorsuch's description essentially downplays any potential coercive impacts of the prayer:
To the degree the Court portrays petitioner Joseph Kennedy's prayers as private and quiet, it misconstrues the facts. The record reveals that Kennedy had a longstanding practice of conducting demonstrative prayers on the 50-yard line of the football field. Kennedy consistently invited others to join his prayers and for years led student athletes in prayer at the same time and location. The Court ignores this history.
Sotomayor's dissent includes actual embedded photographs of the prayers on the 50-yard line with the coach surrounded by players, showing that this isn't some quiet personal observance. He sought out media coverage for his prayers. The school district noted that despite Kennedy's insistence that he wasn't inviting others to pray with him, he had, in fact, done so on many previous occasions. The school district's messaging to Kennedy was consistent in that it held no objection to his religious beliefs or even to him praying while on duty as long as it didn't interfere with his job or suggest that the school endorsed his religion. In short, it seemed as though the school district was genuinely concerned that Kennedy's behavior would be seen as a violation of the Establishment Clause if they didn't clearly communicate established limits on what Kennedy was allowed to do.
She notes that Kennedy ignored attempts by the school district to try to come to some accommodation and instead turned to the press and made a big spectacle out of the prayers. Parents told the school district that their children participated in the prayers "solely to avoid separating themselves from the rest of the team."
Sotomayor sees a constitutional violation in this case, but it's not Kennedy's rights that were violated:
Properly understood, this case is not about the limits on an individual's ability to engage in private prayer at work. This case is about whether a school district is required to allow one of its employees to incorporate a public, communicative display of the employee's personal religious beliefs into a school event, where that display is recognizable as part of a longstanding practice of the employee ministering religion to students as the public watched. A school district is not required to permit such conduct; in fact, the Establishment Clause prohibits it from doing so.
In a way, the dramatic difference in the interpretation of the events is an example of the longstanding challenges in determining how to navigate what does and does not count as a government establishment of religion vs. private expression. It's extraordinary that both the majority and the minority opinion in this case believe that a First Amendment violation occurred here. But the majority sees Kennedy as the victim and the minority sees him as the cause.
It turns out that a lesser-noticed Supreme Court verdict from May held a sneak preview of what Gorsuch would be discussing in the majority opinion. In that case, Shurtleff v. Boston, the Supreme Court ruled unanimously that the City of Boston erred when it told a Christian group they couldn't participate in a program to fly their flag on the grounds of City Hall. In that case, it was clear that the flag program did not constitute an official endorsement by the city. By forbidding a religious group from participating, the city was discriminating against religion, not taking a neutral stance.
That decision against Boston was unanimous, but Gorsuch wrote a separate concurrence laying the blame for this conflict on a past Supreme Court decision, Lemon v. Kurtzman. That case from 1971 led to what has been called "the Lemon test," a three-pronged set of guidelines that were intended to help determine whether a government policy entangled the church with the state.
Gorsuch noted in the Shurtleff ruling that the Lemon test had instead introduced more chaos and caused more problems than it solved. The Boston case was telling because the city genuinely believed that it had to forbid the Christian group's flag or else the city would be violating the Establishment Clause. And yet, the city was wrong.
In today's case, the evidence is fairly clear that the school district wasn't anti-Christian—it genuinely believed it would be violating the Establishment Clause if they didn't put a stop to Kennedy's behavior. Three justices agreed with the school district.
Today's ruling replaces the Lemon test, which Gorsuch notes has frequently been ignored or criticized in previous rulings. Instead, the Court instructs that the Establishment Clause "must be interpreted by 'reference to historical practices and understandings'" and to set the line between what is and is not allowed to "accor[d] with history and faithfully reflec[t] the understanding of the Founding Fathers." These instructions draw from another court decision, Town of Greece v. Galloway, where the Supreme Court justices ruled, 5–4, that the town of Greece, New York, wasn't violating the Establishment Clause by opening meetings with a prayer from a volunteer chaplain.
It's not clear why Gorsuch thinks guidelines from a 5–4 decision in 2014 that asks people to interpret what the Founding Fathers would have wanted are going to cause less chaos than the Lemon test. Sotomayor's dissent worries that, in fact, abandoning the Lemon test is going to make the problem even worse:
Today's decision is particularly misguided because it elevates the religious rights of a school official, who voluntarily accepted public employment and the limits that public employment entails, over those of his students, who are required to attend school and who this Court has long recognized are particularly vulnerable and deserving of protection. In doing so, the Court sets us further down a perilous path in forcing States to entangle themselves with religion, with all of our rights hanging in the balance. As much as the Court protests otherwise, today's decision is no victory for religious liberty.
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Another one I'll need to read. This one had some weird facts and I felt more mixed on this one then on, say, Masterpiece.
This one is more straight forward than the school vouchers. There is zero cost on government to let someone freely pray.
Except that the coach didn't kneel in the dirt like Archemedes to do mathmatical, algebraic, and trigonometric equations, and instead of getting a spear shived into him, students join him. Students need that more than prayers to nonexistent boogums-in-the-closet.
Yeah, but you see shreek, it turns out that the coach doesn't have to kneel in a tar pit a thousand miles from the campus because you don't lose your 1A rights to practice religion when you sign your John Hancock on an employment contract for the city. Try to imagine the coach is out there on the 50 yard line telling his player about anal masturbation and encouraging them to chop their dicks off and I'm sure you'll be able to grok this eventually.
Coach did it after a game, and when students wanted to join him, he said "It's a free country, do what you want"
What do right-thinking people want? At the very least, the coach has to resign, leave school grounds, find a location completely outside the school district, get 7 different kinds of permits, makes sure that minors have written and video permission from the kids' parents, teachers, doctors, and party officials, and give at least equal time to any opposition speakers.
If he just tells the school district that he's out there counseling his players on the newest "gender affirming" genital mutilation techniques then you've got libertarians on board.
The proper response is to conduct a "superstition is for gullible losers and fairy tales are for children of all ages" gathering adjacent to (and louder than) the nonsense-swallowing slack-jaws' prayer circle.
But to do that you'd have to leave your section 8 apartment, and would the Meals on Wheels guy worry about you?
Coach did it after a game, and when students wanted to join him, he said "It's a free country, do what you want"
Immediately after the game, in the middle of the field, while spectators are still there, the players were still in their pads, etc. In other words, it is ridiculous to claim that he wasn't acting as a school official. I have coached high school sports. A coach's job isn't over until all of the equipment is stored and every kid is back under the sole supervision of their parents.
You don't need a three pronged test, only one prong.
Does the government itself require participation in a particular religion?
If so, establishment; if not, no establishment.
It is as clear as "shall not be infringed".
Isn't it Pride month?
But I still have my Monkeypox decorations dangling from the front porch!?!
The neighbors still have their Ukraine ones up and it's already two Current Things later.
Do I have to use three prongs during Pride Month?
I'm just not keeping up.
Does the government itself require participation in a particular religion?
What do you mean by "require participation"? Is paying taxes that support the exercise of religion requiring participation? Is having kids say the Pledge, with its "under God" line that was added in the 1950's requiring participation in religion?
It's easy to make the broad question seem simple, but particular situations require more precise lines to be drawn.
It really is that simple.
Is paying taxes that support the exercise of religion requiring participation? - No just like paying taxes that (among other things) support a war is not the same as being drafted. As a reminder, you've been allowed to use your tax-funded GI Bill or Pell Grant to attend seminary for decades.
Is having kids say the Pledge, with its "under God" line that was added in the 1950's requiring participation in religion? - Yes. And that's why you can't compel kids to say the Pledge. (Part of the reason, anyway.) And, by the way, you haven't been allowed to compel them to do that for many, many years.
If the state is using taxpayer's funds for the facility where this stuff goes on, and the boojum-worshippers aren't paying a rent equivalent to what others would pay to use it, my /m/u/l/c/t/i/n/g/ participation is required.
I'd say the same about being forced to pay for the education of other people's kids. Privatize the schools and this problem goes away.
If this guy had just run on the field after every game wearing only a lace g-string or assless chaps getting his pride on, the School Board would have given him a promotion and Scott would have nominated him for a medal of freedom. Instead he just walked out and quietly prayed, the fascist bastard!!
Scott's religion has been adopted by the State, and totalitarians tolerate no competition
J-Lo's halftime show was as "quiet" as this guy's 50-yard-line demonstration.
He didn't start really making a big deal about it until the school tried shutting him down. So, his big deal was a protest against the schools totalitarian securalism.
The 1A only protects religious observance done in secret?
There's a lot of real estate in between "in secret" and on the fifty yard line at a football game. The coach could easily have avoided the controversy just by being a little more discreet. I'm pretty sure God hears his prayers from anywhere.
Or on the other hand, uptight evangelical atheists like yourself could just shut your fucking cock holster. And hey, lookie! That's exactly what SCOTUS said! Feel free to comply any time. You lost. How's it feel to be a loser faggot stupid sub-literate piece of shit, Vern? I mean, on this particular day, not the other 365 days this year.
Could you please restate that with any of the LBGTQ2IALMNOP+++ sacred cow narratives? For instance you can be a different gender if you’re just discrete. I hear that since you determine your gender it’s pretty much the same no matter how much it is hidden.
And still twice as quiet as your cockholster, shreek. Kill yourself you kiddie fucking piece of shit.
It's even worse than that! He invited people to join him. Each time he went out there, he invited people to join him. There was no punishment, no retaliation for declining, but he invited people to join in.
The. Horror.
The man should be in prison.
Nooooooooooo! We're literally living in The Handmaid's Tale. 🙁
Now it's more important than ever for Joe Biden to put at least 4 more RBG clones on the Supreme Court to outvote the illegitimate theocratic majority.
#LibertariansForCourtExpansion
RBG clones? Like Jurassic Park? (spooler alert: that did not end well)
Correction, bionic zombie RBG clones!
With fricken laser beams!
Maybe the way to help students worried whether their playing time might be influenced by a lunk-headed coach afflicted by adult-onset superstition will be to stage an adjacent gathering that mocks nonsense and its gullible adherents, letting students congregate vaguely between the two groups, not showing their hand concerning belief in childish fairy tales or belief in the reality-based world.
You know, as the country gets more brown, Catholic and often Muslim, things like public prayer are going to be more common. Old white people like you are going to have to learn to live with your new diminished role in shaping the culture.
Sorry grandpa, but it isn't the 70s anymore.
Leftists can't help but confess their totalitarian bigotry by projecting.
Notice where this faggot takes things from "coach individually praying after game" to "we need to force all children into participating in our religion"
https://twitter.com/WajahatAli/status/1541454279894073344?t=TrBKUxtmptPWbeeOBTNa6g&s=19
Looking forward to Muslim teachers praying w Christian students to Allah with multiple Allahu Akbars. I said the Our Father at a Catholic school. I didn't freak out, but the same folks applauding today's ruling want to ban Muslims, books & Sharia law so I'm sure they'll be cool.
Muslim teachers should teach the kids in class wudu and then lead them in Islamic prayer facing Mecca. Use the Arabic as much as possible. It'll be a great learning experience especially for the Christian students and it's the same God of Abraham so it's all win.
Muslims are supposed to pray 5 times a day. So for the early afternoon prayer, a Muslim teacher should stop the class. Loudly do the adhan, the call to prayer, and then pray towards Mecca. Kids can join or not, nobody will be forced, but the teacher can lead them. It'll be great.
I don't care if they pray to fucking Satan. The state shouldn't ban people from praying to whatever deity they want to. And I'm a fairly devout Lutheran and believe Islam is a heritical religion, but it's I'm not going to ban them from praying. I also don't think the state should force people to pray in private as long as they aren't forcing others to join in.
And that was pretty much the response of every non leftist in the thread.
The revealing aspect here is not just the incorrect assumption that conservatives would oppose a Muslim teacher/coach doing the same thing the Christian coach was doing, but also that the woke leftist automatically dialed it up to 11 because he's psychotic and can't conceive of normal practice. He equates a coach praying at midfield post-game with pausing classroom education to intentionally make a demonstrative spectacle and forcing the students to participate. The primary motive in the latter case not being simple devotion to and practice of faith, but explicitly conceived as an act of revenge.
Leftists are literally cancer.
I've noticed that a large percentage of people just don't understand the difference between forced and voluntary. There are also some who are being deliberately obtuse and others who are being deliberately deceitful.
" And I'm a fairly devout Lutheran "
To what do you ascribe your adult-onset superstition?
Indoctrination from shitty parents?
Chronic gullibility?
Backwater religious schooling?
Inability to handle reality?
Traumatic head injury?
Stupidity-induced appetite for nonsense?
Arty! Nice to see you’re checking in again.
How’s the culture war going these days?
...devotion to Luther's anti-semitism?
A Muslim would tell you that Allah has no body, no genitals to procreate a son, no partner, and no equal. And at the right time and place, that Muslim would slice your head off for saying otherwise.
And prayer 5 times daily, including time for ablutions beforehand, might explain why Muslim nations are such bastions of economic, scientific, social, and moral progress /sarc.
And people coming here from abroad also syncretize, moderate, and even give up their religions from the "old country."
And people from abroad experiencing pie on Earth in a variety of flavors won't be seeking "Pie-In-The-Sky in the sweet by-and-bye."
So, Clingers, take your guns, but leave the Shahadahs and Novenas elsewhere. 🙂
Hey there Art. Glad you're in the mood to discuss the Supreme Court.
With that in mind, I need to ask: How did a brilliant guy like you miscalculate the impact of a Joe Biden Presidency on the Supreme Court to such an embarrassing degree? Recall what you predicted before the election — "I wouldn't mind seeing Judge Barrett confirmed, if only because I believe it would precipitate the installation of four new, better justices during the first half of 2021."
Well not only did Biden fail to expand the Supreme Court to 13 by mid-2021. Now it's mid-2022, there are still 9 justices, and our favorite SUPER-PRECEDENT just got overturned. How did you botch this one so badly? Is there still time to expand the Court before the midterms, or will Biden wait until after #BlueWave2022 gives the Democrats 60+ Senators?
#SaveRoe
A deplorable slack-jaw from West Virginia and an unreliable chucklehead from Arizona have delayed the liberal-libertarian mainstream's imposition of adult supervision on bigoted, superstitious, worthless right-wingers.
This is delay, not a change in course. The culture war is not over but it has been settled. Good guys have won, worthless clingers get stomped into political and cultural irrelevance.
Remember, Artie. There are people who care about you. Before you do anything rash, talk it out with a friend or loved one.
It's comments like these that make the point that leftists are really the worst liberals. How can you consider yourself liberal and yet hold and wield the same judgmentalism and righteous condemnation that you despise in religious people?
The lack of self-awareness on the left is one of the most fascinating things anymore.
The American left was never liberal, it was just a label FDR assumed because "progressive" had gotten a negative association due to prohibition.
The left in the past took some liberal positions, but the underlying motive was never liberalism. It's always been in service of culture war, and acquiring power to centrally plan the creation of New Man to be imposed by The State.
Bigoted, obsolete, antisocial, disaffected right-wing slack-jaws are among my favorite culture war casualties.
It's funny how hard you try to mask your losing.
If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is to let secular anti-theists continue to make asses of themselves publicly, not enforced silence.
Can you imagine how badly they expose themselves in the freak out if affirmative action is ever ruled unconstitutional?
Affirmative action, as originally understood, is fine. Invidious discrimination by the state, or required of private actors by the state, are what should be struck down.
Hey, Rev, do you think that we take your Constitutional analysis more seriously when you throw in a few bigoted shibboleths?
Your better don't want your approval, or anything else from you, except your continuing compliance.
Losing a culture war has consequences, especially for bigoted, slack-jawed, backwater, faux libertarian clingers.
So Arty, how’s that culture war working out for you Marxists? Not so good?
Too bad, so sad.
Better Americans have all of the modern, successful communities; all of the strongest research and teaching institutions; all of the better entertainments; all of the benefits of bright flight (the smart, ambitious young people fleeing the sticks at high school graduation, never to return); and control of the trajectory of the culture war.
Clingers have shitty, can't-keep-up backwaters; downscale rural religious schools that teach nonsense; the wrong end of bright flight (all of the losers stay behind, concentrating the pool of ignorance, bigotry, superstition, indolence, and dysfunction); Gutfeld!, the Left Behind series, NASCAR, and drawling, twanging country music for entertainment; and the wrong side of history and the losing end of the culture war.
America's continuing trajectory of progress is predictable. The judgment at the marketplace of ideas is far more than Republicans can overcome.
And when the inevitable national split happens, you and your ilk will be killing your pets for food, the same way Venezuela's educated elites did to their common rabble.
Don't be silly. Any animal in Kirkland's possession for more than 30 consecutive seconds would making a beeline for North Korea.
You forgot "slack-jawed" and "clingers".
Is there compulsion by the coach to require participation in a prayer? Does anyone need to even hear his prayer if they do not want to?
Contrast this to the argument that other teachers sharing their beliefs to a captive audience is a violation of freedom of speech.
I am sorry the case didn't involve a Muslim coach laying out a prayer rug. The principle would have been the same and the ruling the same but watching the pain and suffering of the reason staff dealing with that dilemma would have been fantastic.
^+10
Or some Native American drum circle. The Indians seem to get progressives all kind of squishy inside.
NA mascots are forbidden, these days.
No real need. For one, Muzzies aren't athletic, for two, they already have prayer stations in almost every public school in America.
This is true. And it’s union mandated as a reasonable accommodation. Wear their kuffees until they clock out. And no one says a word.
This case is a nothingburger either way.
It is a nothing burger if you actually think people should be left alone. If, however, you are one of those people who can't stand the idea of someone expressing an opinion or belief you don't like, this is a catastrophe. I mean the guy went out and took a knee and sat there quietly. How dare he do such a thing!!
Seriously, it if a big deal and not a good thing in your view if you are an asshole. Otherwise, who cares what the guy does after the game even if it is on the field?
Amen.
ISWYDT
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=iswydt
Stop establishing your religion!
Just the opposite: if you allow each side the sincerity of their words, then this is a clear conflict of two rights (freedom of vs non-establishment of). This is a great big mess, philosophically as bad as the Row ( and now Dobbs) case(s).
How does a HS football coach's prayers constitute an Establishment of Religion?
Does the 1A guarantee freedom of religion or freedom from hearing anyone else's religious views?
Pro tip: 1A guarantees freedom of religion.
Get woke! The purpose of government now is to prevent chosen people from hearing ANYTHING they prefer not to.
Or, in this case, seeing anything they prefer not to.
Come on guys, lighten up, it's not like they banned graphic novels depicting underage blowjobs from being part of the K-7 curriculum or something.
"How does a HS football coach's prayers constitute an Establishment of Religion?"
He is an employee of the state acting in his capacity as an employee at a state event.
Thank you, I assumed that was obvious, but apparently not.
Well, it's not, because you don't lose your 1st Amendment rights when you sign an employment contract with the local school district. You just lucked out and found one of the dozen or so people on this planet with even fewer brain cells than you to puff up your little e-peter.
Oh also, do the 1619 project. Or Muslim prayer rooms in public schools. You can still worship Moloch and offer your child sacrifices to him (PBUH), you just can't make everyone else play along with your delusions. Sucks dunnit?
The football game was over. That sounds like he was doing it on his own time.
The job isn't over for a coach until the last towel-snapper has gone home and all the equipment has been stowed.
I haven’t saw progressives so angry since Friday. Best. Pride Month. Ever.
Seriously though, even though this has been a banner week for…less progressive agenda items, it seems that progressives are advocating for the end of democracy by saying that the SC should be burned down or just ignore the ruling. What’s next, President Biden saying that he will issue an executive order even though it is probably illegal? (Oh wait, already did that.)
Good. Let them sue for succession. An ideological divorce is decades overdue.
They're always this angry. They're just getting more press coverage this week.
They're always angry, but SCOTUS has landed a couple of good pinata hits on the fat pink-haired hornets' nest.
I was listening to the radio the other day and someone was talking about how the conservative ideology despises the administrative state, and how this court could start to dismantle it. The person was talking as if it was the end of the world. It made me giddy. The more the feds push back to the states the better. Dismantle alphabet agencies? Hell yeah! This could be a good thing.
It really has been fascinating watching the anger erupt over the concept of peoples getting to vote for and decide their own futures.
There are people who support liberty and those who do not. Those who do not get very angry and fearful when people are not controlled.
So true.
Yeah, we're entering the dark old days where Arkansas still has a more permissive abortion policy than, say, Italy. Or France. Or Ukraine. Or UK.
Don't you get it? Preventing progressives from imposing their ideology is totally fascism.
Funny enough, that is exactly what Sqrlcasmic was clumsily trying to Jon Stewart into the conversation, and somehow managed to find in Inquisitive Squirrel somebody nearly as stupid as himself to share it with.
I've heard someone cite some study (could I get any more fucking vague) basically saying that lobbyist funding has started going to the states because the federal gridlock is so intense.
That actually feels like a good outcome to me. Wish I had a better cite for it.
When I vote strategically, it is ALWAYS for a divided government.
Ideally, that would yield compromise. No one side only legislation like Obamacare, or absolutely everything in my state. In practice it usually just means gridlock, which is almost as good. Most big legislation fucks things up, it doesn't fix them.
It was good of you to put that ideology aside for the past 30 months while you shit and piss your pants hiding under your couch UberEatsing your plastic handle Walmart vodka and Ring Dings with 4 masks strapped to face proudly proclaiming that anyone who wasn't as equally cucked and pathetic as you was personally responsible for the death of your fictitious grandmother. On that note, how's your fugazi cancer-stricken wife doing nowadays, sqrlcasmic? She still having to fend off the COVID hordes, or has she magically gone into remission ever since you got done riding that hobby horse?
Frankly, anyone who makes such a show of praying so publicly seems to me more of a publicity hound than a devout Christian. On the other hand, I have seen too many conflicting reports of who prayed with him and when to have faith in factual reporting, and ties go against the government.
Catholic here, and always make it a point to bow my head in silence and pray when in public. I do a rather flamboyant crossing myself though when i am through, that and utter incantations in Latin while tossing holy water on infidels. OTOH, Muslims jump around, swing machetes and decapitate Jews and Christians, so I say, "to each his own". That and carry a mini-Glock 26 with a round in it. just in case.
Bruh. You're a decent guy, good people. But you have business whatever in a church. They don't want you. Reject them too, or assimilate into the heteroborg.
*no business
From a Constitutional POV, it doesn't really matter if this guy is a publicity hound or a quiet saint.
The 1A still protects his observance.
Virtue signaling from the Religious Right?
Sotomayor's dissent includes actual embedded photographs of the prayers on the 50-yard line with the coach surrounded by players, showing that this isn't some quiet personal observance.
Yeah, about that picture. You might want to get the backstory on it. It was after Kennedy was threatened with being fired for praying. And it wasn't just his school's athletes. The opposing team joined in. My understanding is that Kennedy didn't solicit it.
This is just absurd. By all accounts, Kennedy was simply praying by himself. Some of his players went to him and asked to join him. So, not only did he not coerce the kids into praying, he didn't even solicit their participation. About the only way he could get less coercive is if he actively discouraged or forbid their participation. And that sounds a lot to me like a free exercise violation. And Sotomayor's twisted reasoning sounds like a religious test - practicing Christians need not apply.
“A school district is not required to permit such conduct; in fact, the Establishment Clause prohibits it from doing so.”
Pretty certain that the Wise Latina* doesn’t have the chops to make a compelling argument against the SC ruling on this case. Possibly a C- (or worse) would have been awarded to her performance in the 11th grade history class I attended at my backwoods public high school.
I’d blame her public school education if I wasn’t certain she was the product of a fine Ivy League law school.
*or who ever actually writes for her, clerks/interns or such.
Public school employees now have a right to coerce students into their religious prayers.
The dissent was correct.
A very sad day for freedom from religion.
Awwww...poor Molly has a sad that she can't infringe on people's free exercise of their religion.
I’m about as anti-religion as they come. How is this coercion?
Apparently you're not anti-religion enough. Or, you simply understand that people are free to make their own decisions and aren't just braindead copycats.
You also might be against religion, but you're not irrationally frightened by it like people on the left are.
Because he did it publicly and not quietly by naming it something else and then telling kids not to tell their parents. Or provide changing closets for the students to don their monk robes.
This kind of mindset is just baffling to me. It's like saying the coach eats a chicken sandwich for lunch, now all the vegans and vegetarians are going to start eating chicken sandwiches. The principal likes to play tennis, now every student is going to be playing tennis.
The left's view of people is that they are morons who will simply do and say whatever someone else does in mimicry. They ascribe no agency to people, whether students, people of color, or women. They look at humans as tremendously incapable and unable to exert independent thought or belief. As such, everyone must conform their desired personality and practice. Otherwise the world will be thrown asunder with all these people being free to choose as they see fit how to act and believe.
But flip that around, and let it be the popular coach who makes sure that the students see that he has a vegan sandwich for lunch every day. Initially I'd say it's odd, and he can eat whatever he wants. However, at some point, it does start to look like proselytizing, even if it's not intended that way. (Or perhaps an eating disorder???)
So what? What does it matter if he would like people to join him in his religion. What does it matter if he would like people to eat vegan? What does it matter if he wants people to play tennis.
My point is this weird fear of religion when influence is in literally everything we do. Life influences people all over the place. Some people might dislike religion more because of his behavior. I know I would probably be in that group.
The problem I'm getting at is this attempt to use the constitution as a weapon to inoculate the world of things people don't like. That's not what it's for. The constitution prevents forcing of religion on others. It does not prevent the public existence of religion and people who practice religion. To believe that is wholly a selfish argument simply because you don't like religion, no a constitutional one.
Thus my comment to suggest that it's a judgement call - not a one size fits all.
Yet, it is a one size fits all. Actual forced participation, wrong. Not forced participation, fine. Whether someone feels pressured by their own mental conjuring to participate, irrelevant.
Not irrelevant, more audience dependent and the age of this audience makes it irrelevant here. If this were in front of a bunch of 10 year olds it might be different.
"A very sad day for freedom from religion."
So sorry that this is happening to you Shrike, but it's that pesky "no law prohibiting the free exercise thereof" clause again.
Saw you guys were burning churches and birthing centers over the weekend. Maybe you can cheer yourself up with another bonfire.
^+10
That fat fucking pussy ass piece of shit hasn't left his section 8 apartment in 20 years unless it was to tool around the elementary school with a telephoto lens and a bottle of viagra.
Like a Sharia version of the Handmaid's Tale, right?
Perhaps you would be happier in North Korea. None of that pesky religion allowed to interfere with the love of the Dear Leader.
As if Juche and the cult of personality featuring the Kims wasn't, functionally, a religion.
There is no ‘freedom from religion clause’ in the constitution.
....free excercise... means you are free to join a religion and practice it and free not to do either of those things. Requiring taxes that are used to promote religion in general or a particular religion violates that principle.
I fail to see the coerciveness in this. Are you being intentionally obtuse or deliberately lying? And what do you mean freedom FROM religion? You are still free FROM any religion, except possibly Marxism, which is permeating practically every level of government these days.
Why settle for OR instead of AND? Shreek is tiny, both sexually, intellectually and biologically, but he still contains multitudes.
Good thing freedom from religion is not actually a thing then, eh, shreek?
I think the fact that the coach was an employee was mistakenly ignored. The action is exactly the same as the flag-disrespecting protest by Colin Kaepernick which some consider to be his right of free speech. The praying/protest was performed on company time on company facilities in view of many of the employer’s “customers”. Corporations have constitutional rights. If an employee does not want to follow the rules of a company, he can go work somewhere else.
A school district isn't a corporation. It's an arm of the state. And the state isn't allowed to infringe on the free exercise of religion. As to the issue of "company time", he was specifically doing it during time that was allotted for people in his job to conduct personal business.
Bill, thanks for your comment. The ruling gives a coach a right that trumps the government school's right to control employee behavior. Does anything in the ruling specify that it only applies to government institutions?
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it needed to. Firing him for praying wasn't an act of legal compliance but one of policy. A law mandating private employers fire employees who pray on the job would almost certainly be challenged and challenged successfully. The question is whether the government can do so in its own right.
Not if the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, which it is. I believe that the government especially can't fire people for religious observance, or display as long as they aren't forcing others to participate.
"Does anything in the ruling specify that it only applies to government institutions?"
Yes, the 1A only applies to the govt.
And, even that's a bit of a reach textually.
The ruling doesn't give him any rights, it protects his right to not hide his faith.
Also, Kaep wasn't signed because he's a subpar QB who sabotaged multiple opportunities and nobody wants their backup QB creating a media circus
Hey, Fred, go fuck fuck yourself. Coaches get paid to teach. He didn't do this during class and he wasn't on the clock.
He was acting in his official capacity as an agent of the state.
It was done after games at no cost. It was also done on public fields which often get repurposed for other events and have free use to the public.
Then he should have paid rent for the use of the field. The start of his camp meeting should have been set for X minutes after the football fans left.
The government isn't a corporation. The government especially is forced to comply with the Constitution. Any rule that contradicts the constitution is especially banned for government entities.
Kaepernick did so at the start of the game where everyone's attention was focused on the teams; the coach did so after the game and his duties were over and everyone was focused on going home. The fact you pretend to see no difference says your real goal is not understanding but eliminating competitors to your god, the State.
This reminds me of a question from a high school test on On Liberty. The issue for me is that he is the head coach of a football team. To the extent that players look up to him and feel that their game time depend on him, then it is coercive. He would have been better off doing it in private and not having other players attend.
I don't feel like this is the same as the Boston flag thing. The city flying one flag among many doesn't seem to advocate any position.
I concede your point. And if Kennedy had actively solicited student participation, I might be inclined to agree. From what I heard, he didn't. He was just praying by himself and some of the students asked to join him.
Precisely so.
And I note that Jesus counselled against those hypocrites who pray in public.
"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you" - Matthew 6:5–6
That said, he may not have had a biblical right, but he had a constitutional one.
He also counselled his followers not to be ashamed of their beliefs or to hide them.
Matthew 5:14-16 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
Shrike just hates Christians.
Well, to be fair, they were among the earliest people to discontinue the practice of pederasty. You can see how this would have a very meaningful and profound impact on shreek, since he is a pedophile who posted dark web links to child pornography here at Reason.com resulting in the permanent ban of his Sarah Palin's Buttplug sock.
They brought it back, but just for the inner circle.
Notice how most atheists are also biblical scholars? Amazing.
In my case, 16 years of Catholic school/university required religion and theology courses will make you familiar with a certain book. It 's a good thing I wasn't put through the Baptist wringer, or I'd have great chunks of the babble memorized.
Holy shit are people retarded? Sure, the guy famous for the miracle of loaves and fishes wasn't speaking against pride but saying Christians shouldn't be seen praying in public.
He did. And I think that is a very good religious point. I will not presume God's judgement on Kennedy though, and will not say that we should attempt to enforce it in the here-and-now.
Jesus counselled against those hypocrites who pray in public.
False. Jesus counselled against those who pray without real intent. The Book of Matthew having been written in Greek by an apostle of Jesus, his use of the Greek word hypocrite would simply have meant 'stage actor' and would not have the connotation of deception denoted in modern English. He was simply pointing out that those who pray in public are only guaranteed to be seen by men, while those who pray in their closet are guaranteed to be heard by God. It was certainly not a prohibition against public prayer, as Jesus often prayed in public.
+1 Well said.
Not really true at all. Actors in those days were considered beneath contempt. They were itinerants, like carnies nowadays. Usually driven out of any town they happened to infest after a few days.
Not really true at all.
You make an assertion but provide no evidence.
And are largely refuted by even tacit examination of history. Antigone, Oedipus Rex, Prometheus Bound, all the machinery that brought us deus ex machina, clay masks, historical depictions... a lot of work preserving the folly of widely-despised carnies. Were they despised by more critical, regimented, and hard-scrabble communities? Sure. Widely or universally despised? Only a retard would make such an argument. Even many/most gladiatorial combat was as much for show as it was for any military or punitive purpose.
What did he have to say about people who rape prepubescent boys in the ass and post the evidence on the darkweb to titillate thirsty pedophiles, shreek?
To the extent that players look up to him and feel that their game time depend on him, then it is coercive.
Did he ever say game time depended on it? Did he ever imply it?
No. BUT WHAT IF HE DID?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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I tend to think, once you read into the background, that this case does get messier. I still like the ruling though.
Great, now do the same calculation about teachers being overtly gay/non-binary or trans in the classroom. And then figure out if you have a right if you can only exercise it in secret.
'...to interpret what the Founding Fathers would have wanted ...' The FF restricted ONLY the Congress. States could have their own State religion; tax their own State religion; preach politics from the pulpit and require public officials to belong to an established religion. That was true then and is true today until some racist pulled another load of crap out of a hat and declared, e.g. prayer is not allowed in schools. This case and others, NEVER make it to the S. Ct. That what the Founders put into the Constitution.
Yeah but the 14th Amendment had to set federal standards as the minimum for states, lest the poor benighted negro not be able to ascertain how to drag his ass to a polling location during normal business hours instead of colored people time.
if my son doesn't go out to midfield to pray after the game he won't be the starting halfback anymore.
And if that was the situation, then I would agree that's a problem. However, from all accounts, that was not the case.
Even then it's a bit murky. If my son doesn't go out to midfield for the coin toss, he won't be starting wide receiver anymore either. If the coach calls them out or the team voluntarily goes out for a moment of silent reflection over their loss/victory, that's one thing. If he's explicitly calling them to prayer to a/the God, that's another.
Pretty specifically lectured at the beginning of tryouts that not everyone makes the cut, not everyone who makes the cut plays, and not everyone who plays will start and the reasons for each and every decision aren't spelled out. Really, from a libertarian perspective if that's a problem, schools should go back to just teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic. There's no shortage of secular, non-school affiliated teams (most of which still take a moment of silent reflection circa game play) and leagues in my area.
From a libertarian perspective publik skools should be privatized, and the praying coach problem is mooted.
Are we sure the coach wasn't praying to the patron saint of football, George Floyd?
Matthew 6:5-6 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. "
Not sure if it applies, but it comes to mind.
Matthew 5:14-16: “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
Neither verse seems relevant to the legal issue. Both are what psychologists call "framing," the introduction of irrelevant information to influence analysis.
It’s not relevant to the legal issue. It’s relevant to the religious issue.
It's a good thing we have a first amendment that protects religious speech from bigoted assholes like you then, eh Mikey?
The light being shown is good works, not ostentatious prayer. That may be something sola scriptura, sola fide Protestants glaze over .
It doesn't, since Jesus himself prayed in public as well as privately.
As written, my comment is a thought of something that comes to mind, not a absolute statement of a way to solve the legal issue at hand...... part of a discussion.
If you'd scrolled down a scant 3 verses - not chapters, mind, you verses, it's literally about 20 letters past where you ended your quotation - you would then see Christ teach his disciples how to pray and encourage them to do so constantly.
Today's decision is particularly misguided because it elevates the religious rights of a school official, who voluntarily accepted public employment and the limits that public employment entails, over those of his students, who are required to attend school and who this Court has long recognized are particularly vulnerable and deserving of protection.
Too bad schools can't actually compel students to play football, Princeton could use a few more linebackers like Sotomayor.
A lot hinges on whether or not a team member’s play time would have been affected by not participating in the prayers. I imagine that might be hard to prove in this case.
Setting aside all legal issues, though, one thing is for sure: mixing football and religion is just dumbshittery. It is insulting to religion. And if there is a God, he’s not taking your side in sporting event just because you prayed to Him.
I seriously doubt anybody is praying to win the game. In the LONG LONG AGO before this was a big deal, I had coached who prayed. Mostly it was about playing honorably and staying safe.
Mikey just wants to banish Christianity from public view. It’s the way of leftists like him.
It's still weird and creepy that we have subcultures in this country that blur the lines between football and religion.
It's only creepy to middle aged jailbait thirsters like you and sarcasmic who believe that telling 5 year olds it's OK to cut their cock and balls off without telling their parents is the pinnacle of academic freedom while simultaneously clutching your pearls about some boomer football coach silently taking a knee by himself on a high school football stadium after the game has ended.
Of course, anyone with an IQ over 46 might ask themselves how players could penalized for after-game prayers offered by the boomer coach by himself AFTER the fucking game has been played, but then we know we can safely exclude you from *that* company.
The same people who claim to believe that students won't be influence by the political opinions or cultural values or sexual habits of their teachers also claim to think that an occasional voluntary prayer will coerce reluctant young atheists to join.
That only works when we're doing "We have to teach gay anal sex to 5 year olds or else the first amendment is dead letter", try to keep up.
Well, thank goodness someone stands up for the right of teachers to teach anything they want, amirite?
Lmfao. cytotoxic on suicide watch.
Talk about fooling all of the public all of the time. The problem isn't the praying, nor the school district trying to ban the praying, nor making the kids feel they're being coerced into praying. The problem happened before any of that, when the State coerced the kids to attend school in the first place, threatening them and their parents with prison on the notion of truancy. When's the SCOTUS going to go after THAT infringement on liberty?
I really, really agree with you. So much of our shit now comes from horrible decisions made in the early 20th century and late 19th century which is now calcified in our culture.
Not holding my breath for that one.
Your online name says otherwise.
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I don't really understand Sotomayor's objection here. Why do I lose my 1A right to religious expression if ask other to partake in it or make it a ritual?
The school can't stop employees from praying before every meal, or reading bibles during break time. Not even private companies could stop me from praying during lunch. If I asked others to join in, the government can infringe upon my right? It's ok if only 5 people joined? 50 is a problem?
Let's bring in the Muslims into play here. If a Muslim teacher performed a prayer ceremony in a football game, asked interested parties to join, some elements of the right wing will sound sharia alarm bells. But at minimum, most of them (albeit begrudgingly) acknowledge that the state should not infringe upon his religious freedom. As long as he doesn't coerce anyone.
Should I be worried that SC justice has less constitutional sense than the Breitbart crowd? This woman thought OSHA should regulate covid in the workplace and believes "separation between church and state" is found in the constitution.
I don't really understand Sotomayor's objection here. Why do I lose my 1A right to religious expression if ask other to partake in it or make it a ritual?
To this extent, I'm very sympathetic with the school on this one. Their explicit concern was that they were afraid if they allowed Kennedy to pray they opened themselves up to a lawsuit based on the Establishment Clause. Whether or not that was their true concern with Kennedy, I do think that was a reasonable concern. Thus, I'm glad the court has cleared it up for them.
I still have to read the opinion though, so, take this with a grain of salt.
"Why do I lose my 1A right to religious expression if ask other to partake in it or make it a ritual?"
You do that if you are a government employee on the job.
I'm not bothered by Kennedy's actions, but he does seem like a type example of the American urge to conflate sports, religion, and politics.
Yeah. The facts on the case are messy. He also was a guy who seemed to be specifically trying to bring about a case against him.
>>specifically trying to bring about a case
chapter 1 of Left's playbook for at least 6 decades
iT'S diFfERent wHeN wE dO iT!!!!!!!!
Strange as that may seem to you, religious people tend to pray before and after big events. No conflation or ulterior motives.
This coach only made it a political and legal issue once the school told him he could not pray with other volunteers after the end of his official duties.
And also fired him. Don't forget that. He lost his job, his life, and about 3 years of pay now because fascist pieces of shit like sarcasmic and shreek who devolve into fits of incoherent, impotent rage because women they are 4 decades past being able to fuck might have to travel 300 miles to the nearest abortion clinic when Daquan "Pepper Jack" Carter accidentally knocks them up between johns.
Which is more coercive? 6 prayers a year after a home game? Or what is taught every day in schools? 6x of prayer, vs, 540x (3x a day) of CRT based social studies, math and English? Hmm ...
Depends on how you define "coercive" and what the definition of the word "is" is.
You're also leaving out that 6 prayers are only for the minority of students that opt into playing football and can be accommodated by a ~6 min. of silence, while the CRT classes are mandatory and participation in classroom activities is fair game for being penalized.
Or lack of participation, I should say.
Well, libertarians are just Marxist apologists who want to fuck itinerant Mexicans in the ass in exchange for weed, so within that framework, I'd day the 6 home games where the boomer coach goes out onto the field alone after the game and takes a knee to pray would be infinitely more offensive. Now if he was fucking a 8 year old Mexican boy in the ass while smoking skunk weed with his hair dyed blue and encouraged all of his players to suck each other off in the showers after practice, that would be a god-given constitutional right.
Look! Look! I'm praying! I'm devout!
It is every bit as much virtue signaling as any proggy fresh from a consciousness-raising workshop. Hell with both of them.
This court is so far removed from the constitution that it is laughable. Be nice if they addressed real problems like civil forfeiture or qualified immunity.
They actually did. Turns out your fellow pedophiles who copped a charge aren't getting out anytime, shreek. Better luck next time. In the meantime, if you ever decide you want to pull a Garrett Foster and fuck around and find out, I can now open carry the gun I will use to blow the feces and cunt mucus out of the cavity in your skull where a brain should have been, so there's that.
OK by me if the school(s) allow and even encourage other groups to use the field after games for demonstrations of whatever belief or thought they wish. Yes, kids are particularly susceptible to peer pressure and so the majority rules, but some of them have enough balls to stage a pride fan celebration or Muslim prayer group.
Yeah, kids totally love their boomer teachers and emulate them at every turn.
Maybe leave your teenage angst back in 2004 when you still a young, spry, 45 year old divorced spousal and child abuser furiously beating off to Mean Girls, sarcasmic.
This is Bremerton. Are we sure they weren't just doing bong hits on the 50 yard line?
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So why gasnt pryer stopped inflation, brought baby formula, get the iil wells and pipes flowing, and brough5 the missing Americans,home from Afghanistan? Oh, and brought the dead back to life from 9/11/2001 instead of just leaving a cross-shaped set of steel girders?
I guess if she satisfied you then you had joined previously.
Yes, but those things can be legislated at state level. And given that little children are not of consenting age, adults cannot force them to see explicit content without parents' permission.
Yeah, praying to an imaginary god is a violation of establishment but preventing the state from educating kids about disembodied genders and pretending that the question 'What is a woman?' doesn't have an objective answer violates establishment.
To be fair, so is shreek's on opinion on literally any topic He was a worthless, valueless, hopeless, expendable piece of subhuman shit long, long, long, long, long before he outed himself as a pedophile.
Maybe try hyperventilating like a histrionic cunt first and then type next time, shreek.
I'm not a praying man myself, but as I understand it, prayer is not always, or even primarily for the purpose of getting god to do you special favors.