Enforcing Abortion Bans Is Much Harder Than Winning in Court
There’s no painless way to restrict choices for people who resist.

Before my son's birth, my wife had three miscarriages. In an era of less-advanced medicine, those brief pregnancies might never have been detected, but they were and the end of each was heart-wrenching, no matter that they were undoubtedly caused by abnormalities. But what if she'd done something that might have triggered the miscarriages? Now that the majority of abortions involve medication instead of surgery, linking the end of a pregnancy to individuals' decisions isn't as simple as some abortion opponents claim and has already resulted in disturbing arrests and prosecutions. As pro-lifers celebrate their victory in a post-Roe world, they should tread lightly or risk creating new horrors.
"The Constitution does not confer a right to abortion; Roe and Casey are overruled; and the authority to regulate abortion is returned to the people and their elected representatives," the Supreme Court ruled last week. The decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization came as little surprise not just because of the leak of Justice Samuel Alito's draft opinion in the case, but because Roe has been taught for decades as an example of a court opinion that substituted hand-waving for legal reasoning.
But we know that advocacy of liberty doesn't begin and end with judicial approval. Gun owners advocated for owning the means for self-defense rights long before courts acknowledged that the Second Amendment protects individual rights. Gays and lesbians pursued relationships even while laws criminalized their lives. Fanciers of intoxicants from marijuana to mushrooms certainly haven't waited for legal permission before indulging.
For abortion, the matter is further complicated because pregnancies end naturally, sometimes before women know they are pregnant. In the past, that often meant developing children weren't recognized as such until well along. "Life…begins in contemplation of law as soon as an infant is able to stir in the mother's womb," William Blackstone wrote in his Commentaries on the Laws of England, published in the 1760s. Only at the point of "quickening," usually around 16-20 weeks, could prosecutions be brought "if a woman is quick with child, and by a potion, or otherwise, killeth it in her womb."
Modern medicine makes it easier to detect pregnancies, such as in my wife's case. But it makes those pregnancies no less susceptible to flaws in their makeup, or to physical activity, or to environmental factors. Rather than more viable fetuses, that creates more grounds for heartbreak. It also, potentially, offers more opportunities for officials lacking judgment to exacerbate the tragedy.
"Brittney Poolaw has been sitting in an Oklahoma jail for more than a year and a half," Reason's Billy Binion noted last October. "She will spend still more time behind bars, having been recently convicted of first-degree manslaughter and sentenced to 4 years in prison for miscarrying her child last year."
"In May 2020, Poolaw, then a teen, arrived at a local hospital after losing the fetus at 17 weeks. She was soon transferred to a cell and charged with the felony, on the theory that drug abuse had led to the fetus' demise."
As evidenced by Blackstone's reference to "a potion," the idea that chemicals can induce abortions is not a new one. Poolaw went to prison because prosecutors decided that her drug intake, and not the fetus's congenital abnormalities, ended the pregnancy and this should be treated as a crime.
But "a potion" can be taken to deliberately end a pregnancy and not just incidentally. That was true in 1765, it was the case years ago when women first purchased misoprostol (sold over the counter in Mexico as an ulcer medication) to end pregnancies, and it's the case now that mifepristone and misoprostol used together have become the predominant means of performing abortions.
"New research from the Guttmacher Institute shows that 20 years after its introduction, medication abortion accounted for more than half of all abortions in the United States," the Guttmacher Institute, a contraception research organization, reported earlier this year.
That's in addition to the use of levonorgestrel, commonly sold as "Plan B," to prevent pregnancy after sex (levonorgestrel is considered an abortion drug by some right-to-life activists). The majority of abortions are now performed non-surgically and have become increasingly difficult to distinguish from my wife's miscarriages.
Plan B and abortion pills didn't appear out of the blue, of course. Gun-rights activists with 80-percent receivers in their workshops, and underground chemists fashioning new and interesting synthetic intoxicants should recognize that advocates for officially discouraged freedom always find a way. The goal of such innovation is to make restrictive laws unenforceable, and it works as well with mail-order abortion pills as it does with other solutions to grasping laws.
After Texas's six-week limit on abortions went into effect last year, Aid Access, which is based in Austria and works to circumvent restrictive laws around the world, reported a surge in orders for abortion pills from the state. "In the first week after [the law] went into effect (September 1-8, 2021), mean daily requests increased by 1180% over baseline," noted a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association. Plan C, maintained by the National Women's Health Network, offers advice for using Aid Access and other sources for online consultations and mail-order medication, and the U.S. Justice Department says that "States may not ban Mifepristone."
Of course, many women seeking abortions still require surgical procedures, which will remain available in many states after the Dobbs decision. Some state governments, including California, Oregon, and Washington, have committed "to protecting patients and doctors against efforts by other states to export their abortion bans to our states." The federal government and Justice Brett Kavanaugh also say that officials can't prevent women from traveling out of state to get abortions.
Even if they could restrict travel, that leaves authorities serious about enforcing abortion laws in the position of assessing miscarriages and out-of-state trips. As with all attempts at restrictions and prohibitions, enforcement requires an ever-more-intrusive regime of surveillance and second-guessing. Some lawbreakers will be caught, and others will be abused by authorities seeking scofflaws in family tragedies. That's inevitable when you try to restrict choices for a resistant part of your population, as should be obvious to anybody familiar with the brutal and bizarre history of enforcement efforts for gun controls, bans on same-sex relations, the war on drugs, and Prohibition. Really, laws work only for defining penalties for engaging in acts that virtually everybody agrees are wrong.
I don't know exactly what an inquisition into my wife's miscarriages would have looked like. But I do know that it would have done nothing to ease her anguish. Abortion opponents won their victory in the Supreme Court, and now it's on them to avoid making difficult situations much worse.
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Sign in the back: "Hypocracy much?"
lolz
oh Bonus! I think the first line is "Overtun Roe?"
Jesus
Right next to the rainbow flag and “end racism” banner.
I’d think that based on last weeks’ Supreme Court decisions, being such a huge kick in the left’s ass, that they’d act beyond their usual routine spaz-mob tactics.
Guess not. After all, it was a weekend and maybe the Democrat leadership had other plans already.
They can always pout with posters if it gets serious enough
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/11/us/first-lady-condemns-abduction-of-nigerian-schoolgirls.html
The "Overtun window" has obviously shifted.
winner
Another advert for public skools, where ideology counts more than spelling and grammar.
So what? Hard cases call for difficult decisions. But this case wasn't hard at - Roe vs. Wade decision is incomprehensible from a legal or logical or Constitutional viewpoint. Grade F in any decent Law School. Never should have made to the S. Ct.
"Roe vs. Wade decision is incomprehensible from a legal or logical or Constitutional viewpoint."
Because you're lost does not mean all folks are.
It is worth noting that the incomprehensible opinion got more votes than its repeal.
Not really
Last time, I checked 7-2 was more votes than 6-3 or do you use new math.
It is.
It's just not worth noting.
By an ALL male court. Who, per feminists, has no right to opine on it.
Ah! On the theory that DRUG ABUSE had led to the "infant's" demise...
So welcome to the preview of "Return of Race Suicide Eugenics," starring Robert Dear as Ronald Reagan and Amy Coney as Faye Wray, with special guest star Long Dong Silverback. THRILL to the Comstockist Cavalry charge! GASP at the blasphemous notion that individuality survives loss of virginity! REJOICE at the Revival Meeting and GIMME those old-time Religious Creationist eugenics laws! One Gott! One Reich! One Final Trump!
What is it you think this incomprehensible gibberish accomplishes?
I can imagine him wanking off while reading it, and climaxing right on "Trump!"
Do you think you're funny or very intelligent? You're neither.
My reply was to Hank Phillips.
Just wondering, why do the gays have to make everything about them? Those queer flags are in every rally, even Trump ones. We get it, you love butt sex. I don't have a special flag to show my love of titties.
"I don't have a special flag to show my love of titties."
*jots down idea for a flag*....
Angry Porcupine is a little out of touch. In fact, if you search for "titties flag" on Google, you'll find literally hundreds of vendors (apparently, straight men like their titties with beer).
you made me go down that rabbit hole and i ended up finding the perfect libertarian flag for queer month (or whatever the heck we're supposed to be assenting to..)
I approve
out of stock on amazon. gee i wonder why?
These must be old. Where's the Q+? And I'm sure there's lots more I'm missing.
Most homos are puffers. Ass-sex is a dominance thing, not a gay thing.
and honestly its because they arent very smart (the left) and have this very sophomoric way of trying to tie all of their arguments together to make this amalgamation of a cause.
Hence why everything causes disproportionate effects on:
Black/Brown people
Indigenous people
The Climate (tm)
LGBTQ people
Any issue they push for, or any of the above issues, they just tag all the other issues in so they can make their cause seem bigger / more important.
It's not to make it more important but to delegitimize dissent. Don't want gun control, you're racist; against climate change solutions you're an anti-LGBTQP+ bigot. That's enough because they'll strip out what you said and dissented to and leave only the bigot accusation as known fact.
I figure being called a bigot by fascists is a badge of honor.
Speaking of bigots - - - -
You left the plus sign off the LGBTQ+ label
Why do you hate so much?
As a moment's reflection will show you, "the gays" actually don't give a f*ck about abortion (or transgender rights or any of that other b.s.).
The people who are waving those flags at those rallies are neo-Marxists pretending to speak for "the gays".
its a much more palatable flag than the hammer and sickle they would prefer
I'd prefer if they used the hammer and sickle, rather than pretending to represent my interests.
I don't think it's gays waving that flag. Just like, for example, it isn't gays squeezing the rainbow out of the gay flag.
Speaking of cultural appropriation - - - -
Genesis 9:
12 And God said, “This is the sign of the covenant I am making between Me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all future generations: 13 I have placed My bow in the clouds, and it will be a sign of the covenant between Me and the earth. 14 Whenever I form clouds over the earth and the bow appears in the clouds, 15 I will remember My covenant between Me and you and all the living creatures:[b] water will never again become a flood to destroy every creature. 16 The bow will be in the clouds, and I will look at it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all the living creatures[c] on earth.” 17 God said to Noah, “This is the sign of the covenant that I have confirmed between Me and every creature on earth.”
Sounds like you need to get that flag if you want to compete.
Did you miss the class on basic human psychology, and how many people are driven to put on displays, especially when young and eager to reproduce?
Good. Someone who takes recreational drugs during pregnancy should be locked up and punished hard even if it doesn't result in a miscarriage; the amount of suffering that kind of behavior causes and the costs it imposes on society are staggering.
(The name sounds rather Dickensian.)
with drug ingestion (enough to kill a baby) you can take a baby from normal to severely developmentally delayed or mentally retarded (if it survives). To think there should be no punishment for absolutely ruining another human's life is furthering the left's narrative that apparently the only thing fair is to have no consequences, ever.
Where are the pushes for the father's complete lack of responsibility. How about the dad can tell the mom she can have the kid or abort it, but either way he doesn't want to be a dad so fuck off, no child support if you decide to have it. Why can mom absolve herself of all responsibility but dad cant?
Execute them all. As a family. Including the parents who clearly failed to instill moral values.
"Execute them all."
No JFree, we wont be prescribing the treatment you use on any unwanted inconveniences your ilk create.
Despite your histrionics
Unlimited executions are now limited to those who refuse to vax. /s
I can smell the limited government involved in rooting out and punishing women for substance ingestion during pregnancy from here! somebody stop it, I'm getting tired of all this freedom!
Oh, from a libertarian point of view, there really is no difficulty there: when a drug addicted mother gives birth to a severely disabled child, it is painfully obvious, both medically and financially. No "rooting out" required.
And you can bet that in a libertarian society, if you cause this much harm and financial costs to other human beings, you will be held accountable. It's only in a progressive society that people can harm others to such an extent, socialize the costs, and evade responsibility.
oh.. disabled children, as the harmed persons, will be bringing their mothers to book, conducting interogations, doing the forensic work that removes reasonable doubt for a jury, filing the legal briefs, trying the case, and work the graveyard shift at the prisons incarcerating their mothers? huh, I figured it would be unionized government employees with the inherent disdain for the rights of citizens which libertarians famously claim as an animating principle..
maybe all this new spending by the Jesus states can be paid for by civil forfeiture! who could question the libertarianishness of that!
"oh.. disabled children, as the harmed persons, will be bringing their mothers to book, conducting interogations, doing the forensic work that removes reasonable doubt for a jury, filing the legal briefs, trying the case, and work the graveyard shift at the prisons incarcerating their mothers?"
Given that the state will have to foot the bill, the state has a justifiable reason for discipline.
oh cool, my lefty friend just used that same argument for prosecuting gun manufacturers.. you and she should get together and trade ideas!
I do not pal around with figments of others' imagination.
shhh, John Galt might read that
The way this guy lumps together libertarians and the religious right shows he knows nothing about either.
Gun manufacturers aren't hurting anybody, they are selling a legal product law abiding citizens use for legal purposes.
A mother taking drugs during pregnancy or breast feeding is hurting someone.
Jesus has nothing to do with it, nor does civil forfeiture. If you think that women should be able to poison their children without consequences, you are an evil f*ck. And I say that as a gay atheist.
A gaytheist?
I have a feeling not subsidizing the drug addled woman and a potentially special needs kid for life, and most importantly, further encouraging this care free, fuck it the state will make it all better, behavior, is more libertarian than what you want.
Because you can bet the lefties would howl to the moon its not fair we dont have MORE healthcare / mental healthcare for the druggie and her now lifelong special needs child. Its just not fair they cant get the unlimited medical care the mother caused from the government (aka everyone else)!
You aren't for anything resembling small govt, get fucked
well I did get fucked last night and by your mom too but that's beside the point.. nothing says libertarian like seeking to grow the power of the state because the power of the state has been grown.. freedom sure has a champion in you.. oh, and your mom as well
Libertarians simply believe in holding people accountable for the harm they inflict to others. I'm sorry if that principle surprises you but it's at the core of libertarianism. That is a valid function of the state even for minarchist libertarians.
You are advocating extracting money from law abiding citizens to pay for the lifetime care of crack babies while letting the perpetrators go free. That is a progressive society, not a libertarian society.
You believe that the core of libertarianism to empower the state to punish people who are doing no harm to any other person? I don't think you understand libertarianism.
At what stage does the "clump of cells" become an actual human being that deserves legal protections?
Nelson hasn't reached it yet
Are you effing kidding? A woman who takes recreational drugs not only cripples her kid, she sticks the public with potentially millions in medical and disability costs. She has done enormous harm to other persons.
lol you know they're coming for birth control and birth control medical procedures next don't you? Lol if the blue can't pull a win out of this one they aren't even trying.
I'd be inclined to agree if Team Blue wasn't just as busy seeking total culture war wins nobody wants except the politicized freakazoids of their own flock.. stay tuned for scenes from next week's muddled stalemate!
Remember when Team Blue was all-in on unprecedented vaccine mandates?
there is the real problem.... everything team red or blue is actually for is some combination of dumb and terrifying.... you can't vote against the terrible option without voting for an equally terrible option anymore.
^this is how totalitarian leftists gaslight libertarians into going along with totalitarian leftism
oh, fuck off...... this is why i try to endorse a third option. you are the one trying to justify "going along."
No, you're doing the bullshit "bOtH sIdEz!" shtick because leftists, like you, are 100% totalitarian monsters and it becomes more apparent every day.
it might be funny how much you guys believe your own BS, if it wasn't so sad.... saying that your team sucks TOO is not taking the side of the other team.
but this is what you get with morons incapable of thinking beyond petty tribalism. that people can think Biden and Trump both suck is just too complicated for your tiny mind to understand.
Yes, progressive utopia is life without responsibility or consequences. Except for unfavorable groups, like men. Equity is NOT symmetrical.
I dunno, bro, post-abortion fathers are as freed from childbearing costs as post-abortion mothers
Only one of the two gets to decide on that.
Execution isn't enough. We need a return to hanging, drawing, and quartering. With tarring and feathering of the body parts and hanging them on the gate to all towns.
#LibertariansforPublicExecution
The death penalty is not warranted because drug abuse during pregnancy is not premeditated murder.
A lengthy prison term is warranted because the woman caused lifelong disability and suffering of another human being and imposed millions in medical costs on society. A lengthy prison term will also make a repeat offense much less likely.
Clear how that work, JFree?
But this woman miscarried, at the time she could have legally aborted. Up until the point she cannot abort anymore, or the point of her giving birth to a living disabled baby, it is none of anyone´s business. BTW, there are civilized countries in this world that do NOT criminalize women for their "pregnancy discipline" or the results of their pregnancy (including obtaining or self-managing an illegal abortion after the gestational limit) and we are doing just fine and are more free as a result. Our pregnant women and woman who miscarried don´t have to live in fear of seeking medical care, for example.
Did she legally abort? No, she didn't. So, therefore, she was willing to give birth to a disabled child and impose millions in costs on society. It's the difference between attempted robbery and robbery.
So, I don't think she should be charged with manslaughter for the miscarriage, I am saying that she belongs in prison because she took drugs during pregnancy, and that evil act isn't mitigated by the fact that she miscarried. If you intend to take drugs, you must have the abortion before you take the drugs.
I have no problem with legalizing drugs. I have little problem with legal elective abortions during the first trimester. But I have a big problem with women taking recreational drugs while pregnant: that is utterly evil.
As for being "civilized", some of the worst regimes in history were very "civilized", so color me not impressed.
She hasn´t aborted yet, but she still had enought time to make up her mind. Only if she actually carried to term you could say he was willing to give birth to a disabled child. No reason to have the abortion before you take drugs. Plenty of women do drugs, drink and smoke BEFORE they realize they are pregnant and the fact that they did endanger the fetus in this way may actually be their reason to abort. That would actually be very responsible. That is what you want to punish people for?
So, can we agree then that if women know that they are pregnant and they still take drugs, they should be punished?
You have me confused with a pro-lifer. I actually just want the state to get out of the child business altogether.
But as long as I am taxed heavily to pay for the reproductive choices of women, I am going to involve myself in the reproductive choices of women.
Demanding that women abort before they do whatever the state considers risky means punishing women who had no idea they were pregnant, or passing restrictions on such risky behaviours applying specifically only to women (pregnant or not).
Guilt requires a mens rea, so my comments obviously don't a apply to a woman who doesn't know that she is pregnant. (Geez, you really have to explain everything to people from "civilized countries".)
And we are not a horrible regime only because we don´t persecute women for their pregnancy conduct. I bet (too lazy to look it up, I admit) we also don´t have more cases of babies disabled by their mothers´drug use.
Seriously? That's the single factor that makes your regime not horrible? I doubt that. Even Canada and European nations aren't that shitty.
Until the recent SCOTUS decision, the US had the least restrictive abortion laws in the world and it has some of the most permissive drug laws in the world. So, I'm not sure what you're trying to show.
You can choose to do a lot of meth, or you can choose to get pregnant. Trying to do both at the same time is incompatible.
I respect her desire to do meth, just do it in a manner that doesn't harm others.
This is why Pro-Lifers need to be careful to treat this victory with honor rather than vindictive retribution. The goal of government is not to punish women for their mistakes, or to create a ubiquitous surveillance state. The goal of government is to protect the rights of all People. A surveillance state that throws millions of would-be mothers in prison is not protecting the rights of all People.
Abortion will surely happen under a government that recognizes the rights of the unborn, just as murders happen today under governments that recognize the rights of everyday citizens. That is especially true in a world where we have had 3 generations of kids told that they had a right to take the life of unborn children. a scorched earth approach will not change these minds.
Pro-Lifers should be primarily concerned with dismantling the apparatus of abortion in their states, providing compassionate (voluntary) alternatives to abortion to mothers in crisis, and teaching the sanctity of life. Many of the Anti-Abortion crowd take their cues from Christian churches, and they should live up to that ethos, including hating the sin, not the sinner.
Really, just punting this back to the states is a huge victory. The coastal urban enclaves can get the access they want and Montana and Arkansas can choose their own path.
In one sense, it NEVER needed to be a national issues (unlike the marriage issues which, with taxes, benefits, inheritance / property rights, and such has HUGE interstate commerce issues).
To an extent, I do see the contradiction in the feds saying the states can't have overly restrictive gun laws, and a day later, saying the state can have restrictive abortion laws, but the bill of rights exists for a reason. Some natural rights are more equal than others.
I don't have a firm answer on that, other than the 2A exists and the Abortion Amendment doesn't, a distinction without at difference or a core difference? I tend towards the latter.
The one thing is, I am not going to give a rats ass about CA or NY abortion laws, even as I travel through. The gun laws do affect me, and how I travel and prepare to travel. And since the world revolves around me, I am more interested in the gun rights laws of other states. Shallow, but I acknowledge that.
The 2A is an explicit amendment, incorporated under the 14A.
There is no "right to an abortion" in the Bill of Rights to be incorporated.
Now, I think incorporation was a big mistake and states should be able to pass gun legislation as they please. But incorporation is the law of the land, and under the doctrine of incorporation, there is no actual contradiction.
Aye, I agree. And I am a bit torn on incorporation. As, say, CA can distort the auto / fuel / ammo / firearms markets due to size and ports (which they do now). I'd be less sanguine if they had MORE ability to distort those markets without incorporation.
And, of course, it is hard to square no incorporation and the ending of Jim Crow / disarming of ONLY minorities ('pass gun legislation as they please').
I don't think it's hard to square that at all, as long as the federal government guarantees freedom of movement.
If it had done that in the slavery era, free states would have welcomed every slave with open arms and we wouldn't have had to fight a civil war.
Lol yeah just like pushing "leave it up to the states" to control free speech, religion, freedom of the press, and right to bear arms. We want all these in the perview of the states, that will end well. Imagine being that fucking stupid to think that is a good idea.
Why, because your side might not get its way all the time?
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment IX is neither incorporated nor a source of rights. It is merely a set of instructions on how to interpret the Constitution.
While the desire to kill your own baby may be natural, given that reproduction is not only natural, but essential, there can be no natural right to do so.
I doubt I would ever advocate legally pursuing a mother, but third party involvement is most certainly proscribable.
Correct
This is true of many things, such as child swxual abuse and pornagraphy. Should we not enforce that either?
You sure you want the writers at Reason answering that?
I see little indication that states will go after women who have abortions. Most of them will pass laws outlawing the medical procedures. A few will outlaw abortion drugs. Those laws are enforced against medical providers and pharmacists, and that is rather easy to do.
Women will still be able to have abortions by traveling to other states. Everybody knows that. Kavanaugh explicitly acknowledges it.
Exactly. The pro-abortion folks are hyperventilating like gun-grabbers saying "It's going to be the Wild West!" whenever the courts side with gun owners. It's not going to be the Wild West, and women are not going to be arrested for having miscarriages.
Women are already arrested for having miscarriages.
Women are arrested for having miscarriages while taking illegal drugs.
Women should be arrested for taking illegal drugs while pregnant.
Pregnant an non-pregnant women should have exactly the same rights.
Well, that's what I expect a bigot from a "civilized country" to say.
What is bigoted about arguing that pregnancy should not be regulated? Yes, pregnancy anarchy, that is pretty much what I want, if that is bigoted, so be it.
You're equivocating. Your life isn't "regulated" because there are laws against murder or robbery.
We're talking about whether a woman who knowingly takes drugs that harm her fetus during pregnancy should face legal consequences.
Right now, of course, just the fact that she takes drugs is illegal already, likely even in your benighted country.
I'm saying that if we legalize both drugs and abortion, her actions should still be treated the same way we treat attempted murder or reckless driving: as intrinsically dangerous and depraved.
“What if I don’t have my RealID or Covid vaccination papers? Can I still go to California to get my abortion?” - future CAgov.com FAQ
Women will also be able to order abortion drugs from out of state and there is nothing the state government can do to stop it. The requirements for preventing it are so retributive to the woman, invasive to the doctor/patient relationship, or impact every citizen of the state that they are politically untenable.
What would they do? People do telemedicine every day. It is popular and convenient for both patients and doctors, so you can't ban it.
The restrictionist state can't strip the medical license of an out-of-state doctor. They can suspend individual doctors' right to practice in the state, but the doc doesn't live there so it's toothless, requires massive manpower to find and ban each doctor, and there is always another doctor available to take over, since most of them are like normal Americans and don't support making abortion illegal.
The state also can't strip an out-of-state pharmacy of their license, so no damage there. Most large insurance plans and other large medical supply companies have a central distribution center and pharmacy that ships to other states because it is highly efficient and reduces costs. Can a state ban Medicare, United Healthcare, Blue Cross, etc. from shipping meds to their customers? Not without impacting a large percentage of the state's citizens.
What about the minority of people who need surgical abortions? How will the restrictionist state stop them? Travel bans? Bringing charges against people who get abortions elsewhere? How will they find out what the travel is for? What is the legal justification for requiring an out-of-state doctor to cooperate? A doctor has an obligation to their patient, but none to a state they don't practice in pursuing a ctime that doesn't exist in their state.
Probably the best thing about the authoritarians winning this case is that the vast number of workarounds and means of evading the morality police will become better-known and new ones will continue to emerge as decent people find ways to stymie those who wish to impose their fringe beliefs on the rest of us.
Good luck with enforcement, theocrats.
‘Theocrats’……..
Funny, I’m against abortion, and I’m agnostic. Care to try again?
Most of those fighting to ban abortion are religious and the organizations and funding for the fight are as well. The factbthat you are not doesn't mean that most of your fellow travelers share your beliefs.
If religious organizations and memebers suddenly stopped fighting to outlaw abortion the issue would cease to be relevant. You would have your meetimgs in a small room in your public library. Even a closet could fit all of the atheist and agnostic anti-abortionists.
Abortion isn't relevant to 95% of the population to begin with.
The only reason abortion is a political issue at all is that Democrats are using it to rile up their base, because all their other policies are failing.
Well, I'm an atheist and I'm not fighting to ban abortion. But I am fighting the pro-choice activists because they are using abortion as a tool to destroy our democracy and the rule of law.
"The only reason abortion is a political issue at all is that Democrats are using it to rile up their base, because all their other policies are failing."
Much like gay marriage, no one would care about abortion if cultural conservatives weren't constantly trying to force everyone to stop moving away from the mores of the "good old days" and live the way that God (as interpreted by conservatives) intended.
Democrats could have put Roe to rest by passing the Freedom of Choice Act under Obama. Obama committed to that on the campaign trail. After his election, it became "not a priority".
Many of the Democrats who pretend to support gays and gay marriage now voted for DOMA, having a change of heart only after SCOTUS handed down Obergefell.
Their legislative record shows that Democratic politicians don't give a f*ck about abortion and gay marriage and transgender rights and any of that other divisive b.s. Democrats don't want to end such lucrative fundraising opportunities, that's why they never legislatively settle these issues.
The majority of Republicans and independents support same sex marriage; Democrats did nothing to achieve that. In fact, now they are sabotaging these achievements by lumping together ever more sexual minorities with gays and lesbians. Sorry, I'm gay, I'm not "LGBTQIA2+" and the political objectives of the "BTQIA2+ community" are not political objectives.
Democrats don't want to end such lucrative fundraising opportunities, that's why they never legislatively settle these issues.
Well, yeah, it's why they've relied on the Supreme Court to run cover for them for 50 years.
"The requirements for preventing it are so retributive to the woman, invasive to the doctor/patient relationship, or impact every citizen of the state that they are politically untenable."
Not that some Pro-Lifers won't try.
As a Pro-Lifer, I recognize that some people have been fighting abortion for so long that they are obsessed not just with outlawing it, but eliminating it permanently. But as with murder, theft and other rights violations, you will never eliminate abortion completely. And if you COULD eliminate it completely, the State that did so would be visiting far worse violations upon its public.
When the North defeated the South in the Civil War, there was real danger that the North would overstep its victory and enact truly devastating damages on the defeated people. To be sure, there were good and bad examples of walking this line, but by and large, the attitude was one of reconciliation not punishment.
If you are pro-life and your pro-life colleagues are agitating for serious infringements of liberty, now is the time to urge compassion and restraint. Remind them that the purpose of government and the pro-life movement is not retribution, but the protection of the unborn.
Even if you cannot find yourself sympathetic with a mother in crisis, a pragmatic approach is for the pro-life movement to move slowly to create a moral consensus. Don't fracture society and cement opinions with draconian moves. Dismantle the entrenched abortion industrial complex, and the rest of the population will come along on its own.
The hilarious part is that Nelson admitted there are so many work-arounds, outright bans are effectlive useless--meaning that he and his side are chimping out over nothing.
The largest problems with overturning Roe are that it removed a ruling that protected individuals from the power of the state and it has rewarded the politicization of the appointment process, which will result in an arms race in the Senate.
There are no longer any institutional, ideological or Constitutional barriers to naked political power in the process. There is no integrity, as Mitch McConnell shamelessly displayed. There is no respect for the process. There is no honesty from the nominees. There is no decency remaining. And although the GOP syarted it, there is zero chance that the Dems won't join them in the mud.
It breaks my heart to see how badly we have shepherded the gift that the Constitution gave us.
Spare me the appeals to the Constitution--your side doesn't even believe in it except where it's convenient to do so.
And although the GOP syarted it, there is zero chance that the Dems won't join them in the mud.
Haha, please. You're just pissed that you had to take an actual L in the culture war for the first time in forever. Nothing your side promotes about comity or "process" is in any way sincere. You took an L and you can't take it, because everyone on your side is an emotional infant.
Explain to me what "my side" is? I'm certain you have no clue as to what I believe or have advicated for in these comments, you just see that I oppose government coercion regarding abortion and make really bad assumptions.
For example, what do I believe about the Second Amendment? Abouy school choice? About anti-trust laws? About government licensing requirements? About zoning laws? About gay marriage? About capitalism? Or any one of dozens of other issues that you would probably get wrong because you aren't capable of assuming that people can share some ofbyour bekiefs and reject others.
You seem to believe that there are only two sides. Most people fall in between. I am one of them.
you just see that I oppose government coercion regarding abortion and make really bad assumptions.
Is that you've been arguing for abortion on demand?
You seem to believe that there are only two sides. Most people fall in between. I am one of them.
No, you're not.
Again with the "abortion on demand"? If you can't tell me what you mean (since the obvious, abortion without a waiting period and without requiring a reason, is clearly not what you mean since almost 70% of Americans support that), you"re obviously just avoiding being specific because you know you will be wrong.
Although at this point I would think you were accustomed to being wrong. You do it all the time.
Since you continue dancing around the issue and using the lefty tactic of claiming "abortion on demand" means "anytime where it's considered legal" (hint: that's not what it means), I'll take it that you're conceding the point. Thanks for that.
Although at this point I would think you were accustomed to being wrong. You do it all the time.
Speaking from experience?
Actually shreek, no poll has ever found even a plurality of voters who support your Moloch-sacrificing death cultism when you actually ask them specific questions like: "Do you think a woman should be able to instruct her OB/GYN to stick a scalpel in the base of the skull of a 9 month old wriggling, squirming baby with its head and shoulders already outside of the mother's birth canal, then bring it around to sever the spinal cord, killing it with no anesthetic, and then carefully decapitating the corpse and ripping it into just the right pieces to get the best price on the "research tissue" market?" or "Do you think it's OK for a woman to take the "morning after" pill after she's been raped by her troglodytic half brother?"
""Do you think a woman should be able to instruct her OB/GYN to stick a scalpel in the base of the skull of a 9 month old wriggling, squirming baby with its head and shoulders already outside of the mother's birth canal, then bring it around to sever the spinal cord, killing it with no anesthetic, and then carefully decapitating the corpse and ripping it into just the right pieces to get the best price on the "research tissue" market?""
First I'll adress your fantasy. Show me a case in rhe last decade where what you described happened. For that metter, show me any case of a third-trimester anortion thar wasn't medically necessary. If you want to save time, don't bother looking. It hasn"t happened. At this point the last medically unnecessary third-trimester abortion was about 15 years ago. So stop with the straw man.
From a scientific perspective, a loaded question like that wouldn't be part of a poll that is trying to track actual public opinion. Apparently you don't understand the science involved in reputable polling. You ignorance is not a surprise.
I agree with you completely. The anger and hatred of some people who post here towards "leftists" and "liberals" (their definition often encompasses moderates and conservatives, which they call RINOs), the glee that is expressed at the most miniscule example of "owning the libs", and the frequent use of the word "evil" to refer to the majority of Americans who believe abortion should be legal makes your proposal highly unlikely. It would be best for the country, but the anti-abortionists aren't interested in that.
"But as with murder, theft and other rights violations, you will never eliminate abortion completely"
I have yet to see any consensus that a fetus has rights. It is actually the exact opposite by a wide margin. The only established rights are the woman's and those are no longer protected.
"a pragmatic approach is for the pro-life movement to move slowly to create a moral consensus"
They have been trying that for 50 years and it hasn't worked for them. That's why they need to use givernment force. The only moral consensus on abortion is that it is morally acceptable. There has never been a point in the last 50 years when that HASN'T been the consensus, despite the billions of dollars spent by pro-life organizations.
I wish that the more moderate elements in America, like you seem to be, were the ones who made the decisions. But the squeaky wheel gets the grease (and the money and the power). And the conservative and liberal fringes in American politics are squeaky by design. They are the minority of people, but get the majority of attention.
It is that, not our "divided country" that makes politics today so toxic. We have always been divided on issues. That is a feature, not a bug, of erican democracy. But the unwillingness to compromise, the visceral hatred the the fringes have for everyone else, and the condemnation of the center by both wings is driving the virulence.
I fear for what the fringes will do to our country, but I don't see the center strengthening. And that is a tragedy.
I have no problem with people who believe that abortion should be legal. I have a big problem with people who believe that SCOTUS should produce arbitrary rights out of thin air and ignore the Constitution.
What kind of abortion? Third trimester? First trimester? What kind of consensus? 90% agreement? 51% agreement? In each state, or nationwide?
The actual fact is that there is no consensus on abortion in America. That's why this issue is best left to the states.
You, Nelson, are the fringe that's destroying our country: the anti-Constitution, anti-democratic, dishonest, nationalistic fringe.
"I have a big problem with people who believe that SCOTUS should produce arbitrary rights out of thin air and ignore the Constitution."
Certainly not arbitrary, since there are a myriad of other rights (bodily autonomy, privacy, personal medical decisions, etc.) that support the right to abortion.
Was it wrongly decided? I don't know and I don't have the knowledge to judge, but it seems that the consensus is yes. But I believe that there is a difference between bad reasoning (which has happened at times in the past) and a bad decision. Roe was a good decision and a good standard since it protected an individual's rights and placed a reasonable and logical demarcation.
"What kind of abortion? Third trimester? First trimester? What kind of consensus? 90% agreement? 51% agreement? In each state, or nationwide?"
Most Americans believe that abortion should be legal in the first two trimesters (usually about 55%, depending on the year). A large majority (around 65%, again with small annual fluctuations) believe that it should be legal in the first half (sometimes polled as 20 weeks). It only gains support at 15 weeks and at conception. Very small minorities hold the extreme positions of completely illegal (~15%) or completely legal (~9%). There is absolutely a consensus on abortion. You just don't like it.
I don"t care who is restricting rights. A state is just as authoritarian as the federal government. I'm sure you would object to Harris County making abortion legal in Houston, so it isn't actually about reflecting the will of the people is it? The idea that states are virtuous and the federal (or county) governments are perfidious is prima facie stupidity.
"You, Nelson, are the fringe that's destroying our country: the anti-Constitution, anti-democratic, dishonest, nationalistic fringe."
I am none of those things. The Constitution is the single most awesome document in history. In a time of monarchies and oppression, a radically liberal document changed the course of history. It is amazing.
I am more supportive of democracy than most cultural conservatives, who support the tyranny of the minority and coercive moral legislation in a vain effort to stop people from rejecting cultural stagnation and embracing the future.
I am completely honest. I am more than willing to put ideas out there and defend them. You just can't differentiate between dusagreement and dishonesty because you don't accept the idea that there are other, valid views than your own.
And I am not a nationalust in the slightest. I believe America is extraordinary, but not flawless. The point is to keep striving to make our union more perfect, not pretend that we are already there.
I am not on the fringe. I believe in compromise and incrementalism. I believe that people not only do disagree, but that it is a good thing. I believe in individual rights and a limited government. I am as distainful of the left's reckless and disastrous economic policies as I am of the right's reckless and disastrous cultural policies.
I challenge you to identify a position I have advocated that doesn't allow for a wide range of opinions and beliefs to coexist. I don't think that those who disagree with me should be prevented from living their lives by their own ideals. Just don't force them on anyone else and we'll be fine.
Most Americans believe that abortion should be legal in the first two trimesters (usually about 55%, depending on the year). A large majority (around 65%, again with small annual fluctuations) believe that it should be legal in the first half (sometimes polled as 20 weeks). It only gains support at 15 weeks and at conception. Very small minorities hold the extreme positions of completely illegal (~15%) or completely legal (~9%). There is absolutely a consensus on abortion. You just don't like it.
What Nelson leaves out--only 25% support what he thinks should be legal, which is abortion on demand.
There is absolutely a consensus on abortion. You just don't like it.
I replied to this earlier, but if you mean "abortion without having to give a reason", most Americans (69%) support that as well.
There isn't a single case of the "life (meaning biological and legal life) beings at conception" position being dominant. If you reduce it to the state level you can force people through legislation, but if you allow decisions at a county or city level you lose out again, as you do on an individual level. Only by limiting the decision to states, no bigger and no smaller, does the authoritarian position win.
Well, luckily, now that Roe has been overturned, both sides will be making their arguments to the voters in each state and then voters can make their decision after they are actually informed.
The grave damage Roe was to keep this necessary democratic mechanism from operating.
The fact that you think that taking the decision away from the individual and giving it to the government is a good thing speaks volumes about your distain for liberty. Or your love of government coercion. Or both.
I want no such thing.
What I want is this country to operate as a democracy under the rule of law, with government for and by the people. That means that pro-choice policy needs to be passed by legislatures.
I don't know what the hell you want. You seem to be screaming at the moon that a bunch of unelected judges interpreted the law correctly instead of handing you your policy preference.
I would point out that Democrats had ample opportunity to codify Roe in federal law, with no possibility of a Republican filibuster. This was a top campaign promise by Obama in 2008. After his election, it became "not a priority". And now, Democrats are trying to use this issue to kill the filibuster and pack SCOTUS. And you apparently support this destruction of democratic norms, while not asking yourself for a second of how we got here and why Democrats manage to get you all hot and bothered about this while not lifting a finger to actually fix the problem. The phrase "useful idiot" comes to mind.
"What I want is this country to operate as a democracy under the rule of law, with government for and by the people."
Really? You"re advocating for pure democracy? I thought you wanted federalism. Unless what you really mean is that you want the political level at which you get the result you want to prevail. In the line of federal, state, county, and city governments, you want the state to determine abortion lwas, but not the federal, county, or city. For the Second Mendment I'm going to assume you want the federal (sometimes) or state (sometimes), but not the county or city.
So which is it? Are you a pure democracy person? A federalist? A local-is-best supporter? Or are you transactional, supporting whatever gets you what you want.
From your posts you certainly don't seem to have any integrity or priciples beyond getting thevresult you prefer. So, transactional.
Actually, I want states to prevail in all matters that aren't explicitly excluded as state matters in the Bill of Rights. I have been crystal clear about this again and again: I want New York State to be able to ban guns, allow abortion, and have a strict wall of separation of church and state, and I want Oklahoma to be able to allow unlicensed gun ownership, ban abortion, and teach Christianity in public school. And maybe among the remaining 48 states, there will be one or two that will lean libertarian and that I might choose to live in. In fact, I would like to greatly increase the number of states too.
We can't have that kind of diverse nation right now because of the massive increase in federal power under the progressives, foremost the doctrine of incorporation. I think that was a grave mistake, but unlike you, I'm not throwing a temper tantrum about it.
Democracy just means "rule of the people", a generic term that includes direct ("pure") democracy, representative democracy, and dozens of other forms of democracy. Glad I could clear that up for you.
The "result I prefer" is a federation of states no larger than a couple of million people each, with a small federal government that guarantees little more than freedom of motion, freedom of commerce, and common defense. That way, people like you can build your utopia, and I can perhaps find a couple of states that lean libertarian.
However, unlike you, I don't throw temper tantrums over the fact that SCOTUS passes down bad decisions, I just figure out what I can do personally and politically under the current constraints, and that means (1) voting with my feet and (2) getting involved in state politics.
You, instead, shout at the moon and insult people, which I can guarantee you is not going to produce the result you want.
I am more supportive of democracy than most cultural conservatives, who support the tyranny of the minority and coercive moral legislation in a vain effort to stop people from rejecting cultural stagnation and embracing the future.
Marxist historic determinism doesn't exist.
I believe in compromise and incrementalism.
Stop lying. You believe in "compromise and incrementalism" only if it eventually gets you your way.
I challenge you to identify a position I have advocated that doesn't allow for a wide range of opinions and beliefs to coexist.
Your belief that abortion on demand is widely popular.
I believe that when you can live your way and I can live mine, the maximum freedom is achieved. Not every issue can find that sweet spot, but abortion did until the right managed to defeat liberty with Dobbs.
That is the atomistic view of society of Marxists and autistic people. In the real world, people want to form communities, communities that are governed by common values, principles, and ideas. Some people want to live in a theocracy, others in a progressive state, yet others in a libertarian state.
The US Constitution was written to allow this, by letting each state determine its own fate and rules, limited only by a few constraints, such as free movement and a republican form of government.
You want to come in like Otto von Bismarck and tell every state, every community exactly what rights you think people should have. That isn't liberty, that is tyranny. And quite apart from the authoritarianism it represents, it simply doesn't work in practice, as centuries of European history show.
"In the real world, people want to form communities, communities that are governed by common values, principles, and ideas."
But you don't support forming such communities. You want your values forced on others and will cling to the governmental level that allows it.
Harris County, Texas overwhelmingly wants abortion to be legal. Would you support that? Since it is one of those "communities that are governed by common values, principles, and ideas." you just advicated for.
You seem to be misunderstanding which group is deciding what rights people can have. It isn't the pro-choice side that took the right to make their own moral decisions away from individuals and gave the government.
Nothing will ever change the fact that cultural conservatives want to restrict liberty because the world is moving past their beliefs and the only way to make people live by cultural conservative values is to force them.
Guess Harris County should have accepted that 12-week limit, huh?
Nothing will ever change the fact that cultural conservatives want to restrict liberty because the world is moving past their beliefs and the only way to make people live by cultural conservative values is to force them.
Not true. The way to ensure that cultural conservative values survive is by making a community as inhospitable to leftists as possible.
I do support forming such communities. We call them "states".
Yes, in principle, I would support that. In practice, the legal framework to accomplish that is through statehood. So, to get there, we would have to simplify the way in which people who want to split off from the state they are in can form their own state.
There was no right to "take away"; Americans never had the right to an abortion, since the original decision was in error. If you want such a right, you need to go to the legislature.
Obama promised in 2008 to pass such a law and said it was his highest legislative priority, but when he had the opportunity in 2009, he said "it was not a priority".
Yes, cultural conservatives want to restrict liberty. So effing what? They have a right to self determination and to live under the laws of their choosing. We call the mechanism for that a "state". You have no right to impose your views of liberty on them. And as a practical matter, if you try, you are going to turn this country into a fascist dictatorship in the process because you are pissing on the Constitution, the rule of law, and the legislative process. And on top of that, you carry water for people who want nothing more than to burn this country down and use divisive issues to get fools like you to follow them.
"We call them "states""
Or counties. Or cities. Thecdefinition of a community isn't limited to "a state". In fact a state is more a group of communities within a political border than anything else. Unless you would like to defend the idea that a county or city isn't a community, but a state is?
"There was no right to "take away"; Americans never had the right to an abortion, since the original decision was in error."
I see. You don't believe bodily autonomy is a right? Or making you own medical decisions? Or privacy? I have never said that abortion is a right because of Roe. Abortion is a right because the most fundemental rights to control your own body and make your own decisions about your moral decisions (often called "religious freedom" by the right) are connected to abortion. There are few areas that should be as fuercely orotected as the rights to your own moral, medical, and personal decisions.
"Yes, cultural conservatives want to restrict liberty. So effing what? They have a right to self determination and to live under the laws of their choosing."
And others don't? What you are saying is that cultural conservatism is justified in restricting liberty not because it is the most free, but because it objects to the choices that others make. This is the definition of authoritarianism. And you are supporting it.
"And as a practical matter, if you try, you are going to turn this country into a fascist dictatorship in the process"
Yes, I've noticed how fascists strongly support people following their own beliefs instead of the ones government wants. Freedom is very important to fascists. Oh, wait ...
The fascists are the ones limiting liberty, like you, because you don't like what others choose. As opposed to the ones accepting that others don't believe what they do, but should be able to live their lives as long as they aren't hurting anyone else, like me.
No one is forcing you to live as if you believe in abortion. You want to rail against it? Fund more influence campaigns to change peoples' minds? Organize a march to draw attention to your cause? Excellent. Have at it. Those are some of yhe most important freedoms laid out in the Constitution.
But your rights end where anyone else's nose begins. You get to decide for yourself. You don't get to decide for anyone else.
You are so convinced of your own righteousness that you support tyranny (or, as you said, "Yes, cultural conservatives want to restrict liberty.") to coerce everyone else to live your values. At least you are honest about your fascism.
No, but the definition of a community that can make its own laws is a state.
No, I simply state the FACT that under the US Constitution those are not rights. I simply state the FACT that under the US system of government, guaranteeing these rights is done by state constitutions.
No, I am stating the FACT that US states have a lot of autonomy, almost as much as independent states. The US federal government has no more authority to impose "abortion rights" on US states than it does to impose "abortion rights" on the Vatican.
How does saying that (1) we should follow what the Constitution actually says and (2) therefore, 50 states should each be able to make their own rules amount to me wanting to coerce anyone?
I haven't tried to impose my values on anyone. I'm a gay immigrant atheist and I haven't even stated my values. You have certainly shared your values however, many of which I share.
Where we differ is that you have stated your desire to impose these values on others through the federal government. That is the key difference between us.
I believe that when you can live your way and I can live mine, the maximum freedom is achieved.
What if my way involves putting a claw hammer in the heads of white leftists?
You'll have to use something other than anti-abortion slogans, because "abortion on demand" is meaningless.
I believe that abortion should be legal through viability. I would even see a compromise like the earliest a child has ever been delivered and survived as a reasonable standard (right now it is just shoer of 21 weeks). I don't believe in "abortion on demand" if you mean abortion through live birth.
Of course, even if you define "abortion on demand" and it turns out I do believe it, that doesn't prevent you from rejecting it for yourself. We can both live our values, so your example is terrible as well as wrong.
Would you like to try again? Tell me about the beliefs I hold that would constrain your actions.
See, and that in a nutshell is your problem: you think that the Constitution is a "radically liberal document" that provides people with all sorts of basic rights.
But the Constitution is the framework under which a diverse group of states and peoples coexist within a union. The Constitution only guarantees very few individual rights. Most of the rights you cherish are enshrined in the state constitutions. Nothing in the Constitution requires that the individual states are libertarian or minarchist, only that they have a "republican form of government".
Oh, but you very much are: you believe that America should be governed as a single, centralized nation state with uniform rights and laws, like Prussia or France.
Abortion. The idea that the people of the state of Oklahoma could democratically decide that within their bounds, abortion is restricted is something you cannot tolerate.
Well, and I do care who is restricting rights, because before we even get to libertarian principles, that's the key difference between a free society and a totalitarian society.
"you think that the Constitution is a "radically liberal document""
Yes. Government of the people, by the people, and for the people was a radically liberal idea in the late 1700s. That isn't even a question. The Enlightenment, which formed the philosophical basis of democracy, was a liberal movement.
"The Constitution only guarantees very few individual rights."
No, the Constitution *enumerates* a small number of individual rights. It *guarantees* many, many more. Unless you choose to ignore the Ninth Amendment, which clearly states that enumerated rights are not the only rights of the Constitution, nor are they superior to unenumerated rights. I think you need a refresher course.on the Constitution.
"Oh, but you very much are: you believe that America should be governed as a single, centralized nation state with uniform rights and laws, like Prussia or France."
Not only is that not what nationalism is, it is also nothing close to what I believe.
"Abortion. The idea that the people of the state of Oklahoma could democratically decide that within their bounds, abortion is restricted is something you cannot tolerate."
With my position, people who don't want an abortion don't have to have one and people who do want one can have one. That position allows people with the widest range of beliefs about abortion to coexist. Your position forces everyone to to do it your way. That you can't see that is coercive is insane.
"Well, and I do care who is restricting rights"
Not really. You're against the government restricting rights unless it is a state government doing the restricting. Or, for that matter, the federal government doing something yiu like. Then it's awesome, from your perspective.
You just want the policies you want forced on the people you want and that doesn't sound authoritarian at all. It is for their own good, after all. You are a benevolent dictator. Why would people resist having their rights stripped from them by a state government? They're the good guys! **In case you missed it, that entire paragraph was sarcasm.**
You are a totalitatian but think you are a champion of freedom and liberty. You actually think that because the coercion is coming from a state givernment rather than the federal government that it isn't coercion. There are none so blind ...
That kind of "liberty" was radical by 18th century standards; it is arch-conservative by modern standards.
The Constitution grants powers to the federal government. It says explicitly that all other rights remain to the people OR THE STATES.
The 9A grants no rights to individuals. It says simply that clauses which declare that Congress shall not exercise certain powers be not interpreted in any manner whatsoever to extend the powers of Congress. It is simply an instruction on how to read the BoR.
Yes, that is what nationalism is. It is what made the Nazis "NATIONAL socialists". See, they weren't just saying Germany is better than other nations, they were primarily saying that all Germans are bound together in one nation; that is literally what fascism means.
I am against state governments restricting abortion. I would like to live in a libertarian state. But I recognize that under the rule of law and the US Constitution, not every US state will be a libertarian state. That is the way the US is set up and functions.
Ideologically, I am a libertarian. I believe in small government and individual liberty as goals. I do not believe that you can impose libertarianism on people by fiat, because it stops being libertarianism. People must choose liberty voluntarily.
The constitutional matter is settled: SCOTUS has made its decision and it's not going to get reversed. If you care about pro-choice legislation, you now need to go to the states. Between the SCOTUS decision and the refusal of Obama and the Democrats to pass the Freedom of Choice Act in 2009, the only option now is to go to state legislatures. There is no other option. You can continue to whine, shout at the moon, and alienate people, or you can do something useful for liberty. Your choice.
"It says explicitly that all other rights remain to the people OR THE STATES."
It absolutely does not. It reserves the powers not delegated to the federal government to the states. Rights belong to the people and nothing in the Constitution (or in the concept of natural rights upon which it is built) allows for them to be removed. They are inalienable, meaning the can"t be taken away by legislation. If you want a primer, go here: https://constitutionus.com/constitution/rights/what-are-natural-rights/. Here is the Tenth Amendment, which you erroniously referenced:
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
Powers, not rights.
"The 9A grants no rights to individuals."
Technically, the Constitution doesn't grant any rights, since it is a document steeped in the idea of natural rights. But I know what you mean, so here's my rebuttal:
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.".
If you don't recognize it, that"s the entire text of the Ninth Amendment. It only talks about individual rights, nothing else.
"Yes, that is what nationalism is."
nationalism
năsh′ə-nə-lĭz″əm, năsh′nə-
noun
-Devotion, especially excessive or undiscriminating devotion, to the interests or culture of a particular nation-state.
-The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
-The belief that a particular cultural or ethnic group constitutes a distinct people deserving of political self-determination.
Note the difference between that and your definition: "you believe that America should be governed as a single, centralized nation state with uniform rights and laws, like Prussia or France.". One of these things is not like the other.
"I am against state governments restricting abortion."
Weird. You have done nothing but revel in it, yet you claim to oppose it.
"Ideologically, I am a libertarian"
Also weird, since you said "Yes, cultural conservatives want to restrict liberty. So effing what?". Seems like an awfully not-libertarian thing to say.
"The constitutional matter is settled: SCOTUS has made its decision and it's not going to get reversed."
Don't be disappointed when this turns out to have a Blackman-esque level of accuracy. I'm hoping the over/under on legalized abortion is 20 years for a SC case, 15 years for legislation.. And since cultural conservatives are overreaching already, I think it will end up being absolute (abortion until live birth) because anti-abortionists have shown they can't be trusted to leave it alone.
Which will be a terrible thing, in my mind, but probably inevitable given the circumstances.
So your position is then that abortion is a natural right and that the 9A says that the people retain all their natural rights.
There are two problems with that. First, abortion is not obviously a natural right; in fact, opponents of abortion would say that the fetus has a natural right to life. Second, that is simply not what the 9A means; you can read the Federalist Papers, the original draft, or the remarks by Justice Holmes.
I'm not "defining" nationalism. I'm pointing out that you view the entire US as a group of "people deserving of political self-determination", in accordance with nationalism, and that you are thereby denying that role to the states, as provided in the Constitution.
Not at all. As a libertarian, I want to voluntarily associate with other people who share my beliefs and live in a state governed by libertarian laws. I have no right to force others to live in a libertarian state or impose my beliefs on other states or nations through some federal or supranational organization.
That's not just the ideologically right thing to do; by giving culturally conservative people, progressives, and people like you space to create your utopias/shitholes, you will be out of our hair.
A culturally conservative SCOTUS would simply have ruled that the fetus is a legal person and that abortion was illegal. Instead, they followed the Constitution and came down on the side of liberty and left this to the states and legislatures. And as a libertarian, I consider that a good thing.
"So your position is then that abortion is a natural right and that the 9A says that the people retain all their natural rights."
Not exactly. My position is that bodily autonomy is a natural right. Meaning inalienable, from a natural-rights perspective (which the Constitution is). And abortion is a bodily autonomy (and privacy and personal medical decision and any other area that addresses the state arbitrarily making decisions about an individual's body without their consent) issue. So it is covered by some of the most personal and fundemental human rights. The Ninth Amendment merely (but importantly) says two things: that the rights listed in the Bill of Rights aren't the only rights protected by the Constitution and that enumerated rights aren't superior (or more important or more significant) than unenumerated rights.
That's my position. That bodily autonomy (which includes abortion) is a fundemental, but unenumerated, right and that it is equal in value to the First or Second Amendments or any other enumerated right.
"First ... opponents of abortion would say that the fetus has a natural right to life."
Great. First prove that a fetus is a rights-bearing individual. Then you can move on to using it as a premise for other actions. Just saying something is true doesn't make it so. Hell, the belief that, legally and morally, life begins at conception doesn't even convince one in five people. And never has.
"Second, that is simply not what the 9A means"
James Madison would beg to differ with you. The Ninth Amendment was one of his his big issues. That's exactly what the Ninth Amendment means. By design and very much on purpose.
"I'm not "defining" nationalism. I'm pointing out that you view the entire US as a group of "people deserving of political self-determination""
You are claiming nationalism means something that it doesn't. For the record, I think that every person on the planet is deserving of political self-determination. That doesn't mean everyone gets what they want, though.
"you are thereby denying that role to the states, as provided in the Constitution."
Nationalism is a completely separate concept than federalism. Nationalism is extreme, sometimes excessive, love of country. Federalism is the political structure that delegates powers to the federal and state governments under the Constitution. Nationalism has nothing to do with federalism, a fact which you don't seem to understand.
"I have no right to ... impose my beliefs on other states or nations"
But you can on your neighbors? You seem to be confusing federalism with libertarianism. Your rather extreme view of federalism says that anything that can be passed by a state is acceptable. What matters is that at least 50% plus one person agrees.
Libertarianism is about liberty. It specifically opposes government coersion. It is highly skeptical of government power. It supports keeping decison-making at the smallest level possible, ideally the individual. Claiming that laws removing decision-making from an individual and giving it to the state are libertarian because they are supported by a state of (mostly) like-minded people is as poor an understanding of libertarianism as I have ever heard.
"That's not just the ideologically right thing to do; by giving culturally conservative people, progressives, and people like you space to create your utopias/shitholes, you will be out of our hair."
Segregation is the answer? Run all the dissenters out of town on a rail? Are you going to tell them, "We don't accept you kind arround here"? You want an ideological purity test to live somewhere?
No one should have their rights infringed because they hold a minority belief. No one should have to surrender their rights to remain in their home. What you are sdvocating is the exact opposite of "live and let live". It's "do it our way or get the hell out". That's a terrible world to live in.
"It would be best for the country, but the anti-abortionists aren't interested in that."
Please. I have heard only one side talking at the highest levels about locking up mothers, and draconian crackdowns- and that has been the fear-mongering pro-abortion crowd. This article and The Jacket's from last week are perfect examples. Like the old race baiting "Their coming for your wives!" Democrats of the past, the Pro-Abortion crowd is not interested at all in a compromise, and your attempt to paint the Pro-Lifers as the intransigent ones is farcical.
"I have yet to see any consensus that a fetus has rights. It is actually the exact opposite by a wide margin. The only established rights are the woman's and those are no longer protected."
The vast majority of people believe that a fetus has a right to life. The question is when those rights arise. That has no consensus, as some believe it is at conception, while others believe it is sometime later. Very few believe it is at birth, and the general, developed-world consensus seems to be around 10 - 15 weeks.
"They have been trying that for 50 years and it hasn't worked for them. "
No they haven't. They have been working to overturn a catastrophically bad legal decision that not even liberals can defend without blushing.
"But the unwillingness to compromise, the visceral hatred the the fringes have for everyone else, and the condemnation of the center by both wings is driving the virulence."
You are hilarious in your projection, by the way.
For the record, we had a mechanism for compromise 50 years ago. Each state could figure out the appropriate way for their local population to enforce things as they saw fit. It was Roe v Wade that forced an uncompromising federal mandate on the population. Your desire to claim that this was done by the right is cute, but lacking in basic awareness.
"the Pro-Abortion crowd is not interested at all in a compromise"
Letting people decide for themselves is as moderate as it gets and the definition of compromise. If you can live your beliefs and I can live mine, is that not the essence of compromise? Coercing people is the opposite of compromise and is what the anti-abortion crowd cheers for and works towards.
"your attempt to paint the Pro-Lifers as the intransigent ones is farcical."
One group wants to force the other to live in a specific way and is unwilling to accept anything else. With Roe if you didn't want an abortion no one could make you and if you did no one could stop you. Now if you don't want an abortion you don't have to but if you do you can't in states with coercive governments. Who is being intransigent?
"No they haven't. They have been working to overturn a catastrophically bad legal decision that not even liberals can defend without blushing."
Are you seriously trying to say that the anti-abortion movement hasn't tried to convince people that abortion is wrong for the last 50 years? Really? With a straight face?
"It was Roe v Wade that forced an uncompromising federal mandate on the population."
The mandate that people are free to choose for themselves? We clearly have a different understanding of "mandate".
Scenario A: People can choose their own course of action.
Scenario B: People are prevented from choosing their own course of action.
One of those is a mandate, one is freedom. Guess which side is the one infringing on freedom and using governmental force to coerce compliance?
Hint: one side believes in choice and personal decision-making.
"For the record, we had a mechanism for compromise 50 years ago."
Coercion isn't compromise. Being free to choose for yourself is the purest compromise possible. 50 years ago we had coercion, and now we have it again.
One group wants to force the other to live in a specific way and is unwilling to accept anything else.
That would be your side.
Wow, I must have missed the time when people who objected to abortion were forced to get one. Can you send me a link?
My side wants people to be able to choose for themselves. So if you don't want one, don't have one. I would never support anything else.
Your side, on the other hand, is forcing others, with the power of the government, to live your beliefs, not theirs. So, yeah. You are forcing leople to live a certain way and won't accept anything else.
SCOTUS didn't make national abortion policy. If you don't want to have the state limit your ability to get an abortion, move to a state that allows abortions.
So governmental force and coercion is acceptable if there's somewhere else you can go? The problem, according to you, is that people not wanting to move, not states coercing their citizens?
You may want to rethink using the justification that every two-bit tyrant throughout history uses.
I don't see a "problem". If the majority of Oklahomans want to live in a theocracy and the majority of Californias want to live in a socialist state, they should have that freedom. As a libertarian, I don't want to live in either of those states. And trying to impose my libertarian views on either state is pointless.
My views there align pretty well with the principles on which America was founded: as a collection of states with a loose, weak federal government.
I have no idea what you want. The fact is, SCOTUS has ruled, the Democrats have lied to you, so the only option is to go back to state legislatures. Instead you whine and complain endlessly that the US doesn't consist of 50 perfectly libertarian states and that you aren't emperor to impose your will on everybody. How very libertarian of you.
"If the majority of Oklahomans want to live in a theocracy"
If you don't realize that theocracy is antithetical to the Constitution and its principles, you don't understand anything about the concerns of the Founders.
"My views there align pretty well with the principles on which America was founded: as a collection of states with a loose, weak federal government."
No, that was the principle of the Articles of Confederation. When that turned out to be a failure, the Constitution was written to provide a stronger federal government. Which has proved out as a much, much better idea.
"I have no idea what you want."
A bias towards liberty by cultural cinservatives would be a great start. "Live and let live" is too much to ask for from you folks. Baby steps.
"the Democrats have lied to you"
They haven't lied to me. I don't listen to their propaganda any more than I listen to the GOP. Although if the cultural conservatives left, I would probably be a Republican. Without the culture wars, the GOP has better ideas and policies.
"the US doesn't consist of 50 perfectly libertarian states"
Nor should it. There isn't a "perfect" libertarian state (or a perfect anything, for that matter). Norging us oerfect. Just having legislatures lean towards liberty would be a great first step.
"that you aren't emperor to impose your will on everybody."
I'm haven't advocated for imposing my will on anyone. I advocate for people to make decisions for themselves and let others do the same. It's the core of libertarianism.
My side wants people to be able to choose for themselves.
So, abortion on demand--which is 25% or less of the population.
Abortion without a waiting period or justification is supported by almost 70% of Americans. I don't know where you are getting yiur data, but I would guess National Roght To Life or some equally unbiased source.
That's not what abortion on demand means. Like all lefties, you try to redefine the plain meaning of words when they don't fit your political goals at the time.
Then tell me, Johnny Redefine, what does "on demand" mean if not "when wanted or needed"? Let me guess. In your mind it's more than just a lack of delays and barriers. Amirite?
"On demand abortion" means all abortions other than those justified by rape, incest, or risk to the life of the mother.
"Elective abortion" means all abortions other than those justified by risk to the life of the mother.
""On demand abortion" means all abortions other than those justified by rape, incest, or risk to the life of the mother."
If that's the definition, less than 1/3 of Americans support that (which means over 65% would support that definition of "abortion on demand").
I think that Red Rocks is referencing a question that connects to his 25% figure but wasn't asked as "abortion on demand" because no reputable poll would use such loaded language.
If it's 25%, it was probably "do you support abortion in all or most cases up until live birth?". Recent polls have returned those numbers although historically only a very small group (less than 10%) has supported that.
Personally I think it's shot up in response to the loss of liberty from Dobbs, but I expect it to return to historical levels in the next year. There may be some movement from "illegal in most cases" to "legal in most cases" (the middle two choices), but I don't see anyone leaving "illegal in all cases" or "legal in all cases".
Of course if Red Rocks means "legal in all cases through the end of the third trimester" and he thinks I support that, he's wrong. I don't support abortion after viability and I think that after 24- 26 weeks it is too likely that a fetus is viable.
Granted, less than 10 fetuses in American history have survived after less than 26 weeks weeks of gestation, but still ...
Americans overwhelmingly support elective abortions in the first trimester ("legal in all cases") and even mostly elective abortions in the second trimester ("legal in most cases"). The strongest support is for legal abortion in the first trimester and illegal abortion in the third trimester, which isn't surprising.
You are forcing leople to live a certain way and won't accept anything else.
Not true. Left-wing shitheads are free to move to a blue state at any time.
You and NOYB sure love the logic of tyrants. And you don't even realize it.
I support the rule of law and the legislative process in the US. It's the best way I know of maximizing liberty. I recognize that after the SCOTUS decision and the Democrat lies, the only option left is to go to each state legislature.
Your political program seems to be howling at the moon, whining about how SCOTUS didn't grant you the one policy you obsess about, and antagonizing people left and right.
One of these two approaches advances liberty, the other one does not.
How is freedom to move the logic of a tyrant? They don't even have to leave the country to get that 39-week abortion that you support.
You're not REALLY free unless you're free to send your 13 year old girlfriend to California for a 4th trimester abortion, right shreek, you kiddie-raping pedophile sack of fucking cunt mucus?
"How is freedom to move the logic of a tyrant?"
The assumption that the onus is on the person who has had their rights restricted to move as opposed to the real obligation in a free society, which if for government not to constrain the rights of its citizens is pure tyrannical thinking.
The US consists of 50 distinct societies, none of them even remotely free right now.
If you ever want any of them to be free, then they they need to have the ability to make their own laws, as originally envisioned by the Founding Fathers.
And we will always need some states where theocrats, socialists, and whatever kind of authoritarian you are can go.
"The US consists of 50 distinct societies,"
The US consists of a whole lot more than 50 societies. Thousands more.
"If you ever want any of them to be free, then they they need to have the ability to make their own laws"
Laws don't make people free.
"And we will always need some states where theocrats, socialists, and whatever kind of authoritarian you are can go."
The US was founded as a place to defy tyranny, not give each type its own place to live.
"Letting people decide for themselves is as moderate as it gets and the definition of compromise. "
As soon as you figure out a mechanism for determining whether or not an unborn child has decided to let someone chop off its head, I'll be right there with you.
"If you can live your beliefs and I can live mine, is that not the essence of compromise? Coercing people is the opposite of compromise and is what the anti-abortion crowd cheers for and works towards."
Let's short circuit this right now. This is the point where I say, "Oh is it compromise if someone believes you aren't due human rights and kills you?" At which point you insist that it is different because fetuses don't have rights. It is question begging. We can only agree that compromise is you and I agreeing to disagree when you assume that the fetus has no rights.
Which again, brings us back to figuring out when the unborn child gets its wings.
"One group wants to force the other to live in a specific way and is unwilling to accept anything else."
Yes that appears to be the abortionists who are forcing the baby to...die. Again, if the baby has rights, then everything you insist about "one group" is doubly so for you. You want the right to commit murder for convenience and you call it compromise ONLY if I give you free reign to do so.
"Coercion isn't compromise. Being free to choose for yourself is the purest compromise possible. "
So I take it you are saying that fathers should be free to snap the neck of their 1 week old son? Because right now the parents are coerced to care for and feed them.
"As soon as you figure out a mechanism for determining whether or not an unborn child has decided to let someone chop off its head, I'll be right there with you."
Really? Extremist rhetoric? C'mon, that's not you. Most abortions are two pills. Almost none require surgery. In the last decade there hasn't been a single documented case of a medically-unnecessary third-trimester abortion. Only 9% of people support third-trimester abortions, so you're building a strawman. You aren't a zealot, so why do that?
"We can only agree that compromise is you and I agreeing to disagree when you assume that the fetus has no rights."
Maybe. But that's because compromise requires a shared set of facts. But let's take a shot at it anyway.
I mean that seriously. You aren't a mindless fanatic like NOYB or Red Rocks. Let's do a thought experiment where we list the relevant facts, talk through it, and see where we end up.
We would agree on what is objective fact, what is opinion, and what is faith (or subjective belief, if you prefer). We both know that facts alone won't bridge the divide.
So what do you say? Do you want to give it a shot?
Worst case, we find the closest point that an ardent, but reasonable, pro-lifer and an ardent, but reasonable, pro-choicer can get.
Ahh, yes, the old Moloch death-cult chestnut: NOBODY GETS 2ND OR 3RD TRIMESTER ABORTIONS ANYWAY, SO IT'S CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE MAINTAIN A LEGAL REGIME OF INFANTICIDE.
Why is it so important to you to preserve a legal privilege that ostensibly nobody is using anyway, shreek? Particularly in light of the fact that you exclusively fuck and jack your pathetic microchode off to prepubescent boys?
It's almost like you think that opposing people who are hostile to individual rights and authoritarianism is a bad thing. Which you apparently do, given your insane rants.
If your opposition comes at the business end of a gun, then yes, it is a bad thing.
"If your opposition comes at the business end of a gun, then yes, it is a bad thing."
Or an law that constrains liberty and denies rights. That is a very bad thing as well.
we are already seeing what the fringes will do to this country....
Yeah, that 2 years of riots that caused 4 dozen deaths, over 1,000 assaults and 3 billion dollars worth of property damage because a doped up rapist and thief decided to swallow his stash to avoid the parole violation were really something, eh, shreek? Nice to you busting out all your old classics today you kiddie-diddling child pornographer (see, that's not hyperbole or an ad hom because A) it's 100% true that you posted links to dark web hardcore child pornography websites and got banned for it using your Sarah Palin's Buttplug handle, and B) I didn't suggest we should reject your idiotic pearl clutching on account of you being a pedophile who is also a purveyor of unwanted child pornography)
Mostly that's just because you're a faggot pedophile who got banned for posting hardcore dark web links to child pornography because you area child-fucking piece of shit, shreek. Hope that helps!
People do telemedicine every day. It is popular and convenient for both patients and doctors, so you can't ban it.
I'm completely down with left-wingers doing a telemedicine appointment to abort their 39-week-old baby. Might result in a few less left-wingers to worry about.
You think that only liberals get abortions? Thank you. I needed a laugh.
You can laugh yourself right in to a self-abortion, commie.
You clearly don't understand what "commie" means. Man, you are really coming across as poorly educated, lacking in intellect, or both.
Someone better educated should at least be able to make the argument that "abortion on demand" isn't actually what it is, without failing as badly at it as you have.
Like I pointed out, what the words mean (abortion that doesn't require a waiting period or a justification) is something that the vast majority of Americans support. So your 25% figure is either from an unreliable source or your definition of "abortion on demand" is more than just what the words mean.
Which is it?
Well, then you should have no problem getting pro-choice legislation passed in every state legislature.
what the words mean
Except you're lying about what the words mean, so your argument has no value.
Well it's shreek, so actually his life has no value.
You actually didn't point out anything, shreek. You made a retarded assertion supported by absolutely not one single fact, study, or evidence, because you are a child molesting faggot who posts deep web links to hardcore child pornography on Reason.com and has been banned for it. Be thankful that you're not sitting in a jail cell and a lifetime sex offender registry for that little stunt and then shut your flapping cock holster.
What is your obsession with baseless accusations of child porn? It's like you are taking the "teachers are goomers" idiocy and pumping it full of steroids. What is wrong with you?
Red flag laws for abortion. Take the doctors tools and license away. Let them prove they aren't going to do abortions. It's common sense abortion control. Should pass with large bipartisan support.
Except you can't strip an out-of-state doctor of anything. Your authority stops at your state borders.
No, but lawsuits are a possibility. And doctors need malpractice insurance to stay in business.
You can't sue someone for doing something that is legal. The only one that could be prosecuted is the woman, since she is the only one in a state where abortion is illegal.
Gun manufacturers would like to have a word.
Most of those lawsuits are likely going to be initiated by women who have regrets after the abortion. They likely can sue out of state doctors in their home states for damages.
For someone who talks like an ardent federalist, you certainly don't seem to understand it. A doctor in New York isn't required to follow Texas law, nor is New York required to investigate a doctor who hasn't broken New York law.
And the "feckless woman" narrative was idiocy when it was used to pretend that false reporting of rape was common. It's even dumber in this context.
Many states allow lawsuits against people outside the state when a state resident is harmed. I expect such a lawsuit would make its way up to SCOTUS.
I'm sorry you don't realize that many women regret their abortion afterwards and become angry at the doctors performing them; that is pretty much the opposite of "fecklessness".
Regretting a decision and blaming (and suing) a doctor for providing legal medical care? That's pretty much the definition of a frivolous lawsuit.
A frivolous lawsuit is a lawsuit that cannot be supported by any rational argument on the law or facts. If Oklahoma passes a law that imposes liability on out of state abortion provider, suing under such a law is obviously not "frivolous".
Try again; maybe you'll find a term that actually correctly expresses your contempt for women who regret their decision to abort better.
If you're presuming that all 50 states will support your Moloch-worshiping death cult then it's weird that you're so animated and histrionic about it, shreek. Especially since the little boys you like to fuck are not only prepubescent, but also not capable of being impregnated, despite what your latest ActBlue PDF told you.
Or congress could pass a law outlawing abortion in all 50 states. That's another neat possibility opened up by your putting up a 90 year old senile demented pants-shitter to pwn the cons, you retarded child raping piece of shit welcher.
The only question I want answered by TooSilly is who did his homework for him this time?
Antiabortion states certainly can't stop a woman who wants to have an abortion from having one. They can shut down all abortion clinics in the state and prosecute anyone performing them in that state.
No matter if any state legislature tries to make going out of state to have an abortion illegal, the law will be shut down by all the courts right up to the top. The result for those in no abortion states will be that women have to travel outside the state.
That's all.
For the most part, probably. There will be some young women in highly controlling conservative families where the family can now use the law to pressure them to not get an abortion.
Mike knows all about the way conservative families work. So many of them in Silicon Valley.
"The result for those in no abortion states will be that women have to travel outside the state."
Or just order the two "abortion drugs" from an out-of-state pharmacy, prescribed by an out-of-state doctor. What can the state do to the doctor and pharmacy? Call them mean names?
No matter if any state legislature tries to make going out of state to have an abortion illegal,
Kavanaugh already stated that states can't prosecute people for doing abortion tourism, so this is moot, anyway.
Same probably goes for telemedicine with out-of-state doctors and pharmacies. It's almost like authoritarianism doesn't achive the desired goals.
Except it's not authoritarianism.
Banning abortion is pure political power using the force of the government to coerce people to live by a moral belief system they don't accept ornascribe to.
You're actually right. It's worse than authoritarianism. It's totalitarianism.
By that standard, China and North Korea are the freest nations on earth.
As with all attempts at restrictions and prohibitions, enforcement requires an ever-more-intrusive regime of surveillance and second-guessing.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. Have you not been paying attention to the growth of the surveillance state for the last 50 years or more?
Shut up and take your booster.
We will see how it plays out in red states. It may be that it stuck in conservatives’ craws that abortion was legal, but they don’t have the heart to actually persecute women. It may be more that it bothered them to see a Planned Parenthood location in their neighborhood, and they will be satisfied to no longer see it on their drive to work.
Certainly, when it happens in their own families, most will quietly take care of it. Few will persecute their own family members.
Yes, you leftists always believe things like that.
Certainly makes the necessity of PP more doubtful and that they seem to leaving anti-abortion states belies their "We are primarily a health care group" mantra.
They aren't leaving the states. They are closing their abortion clinics. Given the fact that they are often the only health care option (especially reproductive health care) for women in rural settings, the red states better hope they don't leave. The cost to the state of filling the health care void would be huge.
"Given the fact that they are often the only health care option (especially reproductive health care) for women in rural settings"
By often, you mean never.
If you believe that, you are either ignorant of their presence or unwilling to acknowledge the good they do.
Probably both.
Sure buddy. We believe you.
Wait, you said they are only closing their "abortion clinics" now you are trying to tell us that they are closing 'rural health care clinics.'
If they are only closing the abortion side then why should that affect their other service?
No, damikesc said PP was leaving red states. I pointed out that the aren't closing their facilities, just closing their abortion clinics.
I also pointed out that the red states had better hope PP doesn't leave because it would create a sizable hole in that state's health care system. A quite costly one to fill as well.
"They aren't leaving the states. They are closing their abortion clinics. "
That's you.
So, I repeat the question: If they are only closing their abortion clinics then why is there this threat of a "health care void"???
Planned Parenthood has very few abortion clinics. The ones they have are financially and most, if not all, physically separate from their general health clinics due to the Hyde Amendment and reqyirements about federal funding.
Did you think that all PP did was abortions?
""They aren't leaving the states. They are closing their abortion clinics. "
That's you."
Yes. And then I repeated the same thing:
"No, damikesc said PP was leaving red states. I pointed out that the aren't closing their facilities, just closing their abortion clinics."
You do know that Planned Parenthood has 1400 hralth clinics throughout the country that are completely separate from their abortion clinics, right? Or do you believe the nonsense that PP is only an abortion provider?
Well isn’t this the perfect opportunity then to do all the other health care that they speak about? I’m sure since they do so much other health care that closing would make no financial sense, right?
Selling babyparts apparently is a lot like football and men's basketball to the NCAA - it pays for everything else.
Along with handsome salaries for those in charge.
“Selling babyparts…”
End of any serious discussion …
"If you believe that, you are either ignorant of their presence or unwilling to acknowledge the good they do."
They do not even do mammograms.
Nor do most ob/gyns. They go to an imaging center to get those. Do you really believe that doctors in reproductive medicine all have their own imaging equipment? Are you really that clueless?
If their only product or service was abortion, perhaps they should have diversified their business model.
Abortion is a tiny percemtage of their business (I think maybe 3% or so, but don't quote me on that). They provide a wide array of planning, counseling, and medical services for pregnant women, as well as those who aren't pregnant and want to (or don't want) to be. They are a medical sevice provider, mostly. Their abortion section is completely separate due to the Hyde Amendment.
So you make a statement but don’t want it to be quoted when it’s obviously wrong.
Have they not heard of satellite operations?
Good point.
If I'm correct and it really does stick in conservatives' craws to see a Planned Parenthood office on their drive to work, then the next thing red states will do is try to make it illegal to provide reproductive counseling to women.
you're not correct all the time ... broken watches have a better record.
I think that's what we call "concern trolling".
Why don't you worry your pretty little head about healthcare in the state you actually live?
abortion is their cash cow. without it their clinics will close. welcome to reality.
I’m looking right at the spreadsheet in their annual report and not seeing where you are getting your facts from.
they lie about their financials. abortion supports their business model.
billionaires and celebrities will make sure you can still indulge in post coital consequence fixing...
Philanthropist MacKenzie Scott has donated $275 million to Planned Parenthood ’s national office and 21 regional affiliates, the organization announced Wednesday.
plus - no shortage of the 1%-er Hollywood types who love this kind of 'virtue' signalling
They aren't leaving the states. They are closing their abortion clinics. Given the fact that they are often the only health care option (especially reproductive health care) for women in rural settings
Rural abortion clinics are 'often' the only health care option for women in rural areas?
Have you ever BEEN to a rural area? Abortion clinics are as common as bull tits--just a touch more common than unicorns.
You have no idea. These are NOT city folk.
When someone wats an abortion, guess where they head? I'll give you a hint-- it starts with a 'c', ends with a 'y', and there's something that sounds an awful lot like 'shit' in the middle.
idiot.
When government force is used to either, coerce an otherwise peaceable person to do something they decline to do, or constrain the same person from doing what they freely choose to do, there will always be unintended consequences in response to government’s initiation of force.
You mean like when I'm coerced to spend half my life working to pay government taxes? When government prevents me from getting promising anti-aging drugs? When government forces me to inject vaccines I don't want to inject?
There's no "painless" way to enforce any law.
Lol I love how the GQP are standing up for the rapists and child molestors out there who want to force women to have their babies. Imagine being such a morally corrupt being that you will do that just to "own a lib"
Every p0wn is sacred.
The rapists and child molesters are firmly on your side, clump of cells.
I love how democrats stand up for rapists and child molesters, working hard to give them access to children and keep women defenseless.
Wait aren’t the groomers and child molesters at the drag story hours and strip show?
And the schools. And extracurricular athletics. And on the streets, in the playgrounds, and behind every door.
Except for church doors.
Churches are good, schools are bad.
If it's something you support, like abortion on demand, it's automatically bad.
You have yet to define what "abortion on demand" actually means. There's a chance I support it but if it means third trimester abortions, I don't.
Everyone knows what "abortion on demand" means. Like your fellow leftists, you're trying to redefine the words to what you want them to be.
There's a chance I support it but if it means third trimester abortions, I don't.
This is contradicted by your statement that banning abortion is totalitarian. If that's the case, then banning third trimester abortions fall under that standard, too.
You lefty fucks can't even maintain a logical stance for your own hysterical beliefs.
>>William Blackstone wrote in his Commentaries on the Laws of England
can we quit with the Blackstone quickening nonsense now? if you're not in a state offering baby slaughter, goto one that is. ask your employer they'll likely foot your travel expenses.
As pro-lifers celebrate their victory in a post-Roe world, they should tread lightly or risk creating new horrors.
I'm not a pro-lifer and I celebrate the end of Roe. What bucked to I go in?
Give him a second, TooSilly will go find himself an even broader brush.
If you're not celebrating every abortion then you're anti-abortion.
As opposed to the painless enforcement of bans on theft, rape, or the murder of the already-born?
Those are all offences against people. Unlike abortion.
says not the science.
Actually, says all the science. Since science doesn't make legal determinations.
Of course, science uses the term "viable" all the time. Do you really want to claim support from something that doesn't support your beliefs?
You jump back and forth between legal and science definitions (depending on what you are trying to weasel around) I’m surprised you’re not on this season of Antifa Ninja
science says that the fetus is a human being. that thing in the woman's womb is a human being and the science says so.
when does the life of a dog start - or any animal for that matter?
What does 'the science' say on that issue?
Abortions should be like guns: safe and effective.
With the remarkably stable consensus we have on abortion, how hard would it be to pass an actual constitutional amendment?
It would be monumentally harder to pass a constitutional amendment as opposed to just passing ordinary legislation which could have been done at any time in the past half century. Hell it could have been written and passed just since the leaked draft. But let’s be honest, that would never work as either a wedge issue or as a fund raiser.
On a related topic, no deep journalism going on into the identity of the leaker? Is Wapo worried that he/she/xir/mologob could be a foreign operative? Shouldn’t they at least send a reporter to press family and/or friends to out them? For the good of the country only!
The Supreme Court has no leaks. I was assured in... 2021 or something.
no - no... its not leaks... its partisan judges
...remember Roberts says there are no Trump or Obama judges...
hasn't been time to ask either of the two people it could have been.
Wouldn't any such federal legislation run afoul of this ruling as well?
Logically, federal legislation would, but not state.
But logic and the constitution rarely constrain Daddy Gov
Well Dobbs overturned Roe and Casey, and said it should revert back to the states, but I would think that a legislative solution would be passed as Constitutional because it is drawing its legality from being enacted by representation instead of judicial fiat. Certainly it would enjoy several decades of litigation. But that is my opinion for what it is worth. Keep in mind IANAL but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express…some time in the past.
A law, even having been enacted by duly elected representatives, is not grounds for federal legislation being constitutional. Where does the federal government attain the ability to create legislation limiting the states' ability to limit abortion? The commerce clause is the only thing that I can think of that comes close, but even that is bordering on being a highly specious argument. Thoughts?
I think the issue wiuld be that Dobbs merely repealed Roe/Casey, it didn't establish any legal status for a fetus. So barring another case or some astonishing scientific discovery or legal argument, I don't think there is any barrier to Congress passing a law to legalize abortion.
There may be an argument after viability, but until a fetus has been granted legal status there shouldn't be a barrier.
I'm not a lawyer, so there may be subtleties I'm not aware of, but that seems to be what the Constitution (Article I, II, and III powers) would say.
Obama said during his campaign that this was a high priority legislation for him. Once in power and in control of both houses, he said that it was "not high priority". Democrats are never going to pass this because otherwise they can't get fools like you to follow them.
Republicans should pass a minimal federal law, guaranteeing the right to an abortion in case of rape, incest, or risk to the life of the mother. That would cover the cases Americans are most concerned about and get this issue off the table.
Not only could they have done so, Obama said in 2008 that it was his highest legislative priority. Once Democrats had both houses and the presidency, Obama said "it was not high priority". That's the Democrats for you: they want to keep this issue alive as long as they can.
in theory, it probably would be easy to get the amendment ratified..... the problem is that the congressmen writing and passing that initial amendment all have positions well outside the established consensus. about as many people are comfortable with late term abortions as there are who think plan B should be outlawed..... but those on those two extremes are the ones we send to congress.
in the current political reality passing an amendment for absolutely anything would be impossible.
The fact is that the Roe decision did not legalize abortions, but rather legalized safe abortions. Women will still seek abortions. As in the past women of means will have safe access, even if their own state limits abortions. Hopefully poor women will find safe ways around state limits.
I am also waiting for the news stories of women being prosecuted for having an abortion or for stories of women being injured because safe abortions are not available.
stories of women being injured because safe abortions are not available.
You say that like we aren't already getting a steady diet of articles about women aborting their fetuses with meth.
Thinking more of Caitlin Flanagan's article;
THE DISHONESTY OF THE ABORTION DEBATE by Caitlin Flanagan, Atlantic December 2019
Ah yes. There are 3,000,000 miscarriages every year in the US that are misclassified as abortions and we are going to have a hearing on each of them.
That's the opposite of his point. If a fetus has all the rights of living humans, stillbirths and miscarriages would have to be investegated to see if they were natural or an abortion. Which would mean that a woman who wanted a child and lost it (like my mother did 5 times) would have to deal with the Morality Thugs pawing through her life while dealing with the crushing loss of her pregnancy. Sounds totally reasonable, right?
"Really, laws work only for defining penalties for engaging in acts that virtually everybody agrees are wrong."
As indicated by the lack of enforcement, in certain communities at certain times, of laws against lynching and "honor killing."
In short, the conclusion that "a large part of the public doesn't want the law enforced, therefore we should abandon any pretence of trying to enforce it," does not follow.
I agree. Part of believing in the rule of law, but fighting against an unjust law, is accepting the consequences of breaking the law. John Lewis didn't get threatened with arrest, he got arrested. And never pretended he didn't break the law.
That's the biggest difference between the Civil Rights heroes and the protesters of today. If you're going to break the law, you have to pay the price. Usually literally. Some of these kids seem shocked when they leave the approved protest route, block traffic, and get arrested.
But I feel like these days people aren't willing to accept that there are consequences to their actions. Like the people who whine about their free speech rights being violated when they get fired for marching in a KKK rally. No one is stipping you from saying or doing anything. But there are always consequences to your actions. People these days don't take responsibility like they used to.
That said, some crimes are more serious and deserve more attention, resources, and manpower than others. Anti-abortion laws are at the bottom of the pile, right next to jaywalking and spitting on the sidewalk.
I think lynching and honor killing are the proper analogies, not spitting on the sidewalk.
There are about 7,000 give or take unsolved murders in this country every year. I guess reason thinks murder laws are a waste of time.
Of course these laws are going to be hard to enforce and only someone as stupid at Turcille could think that wasn't obvious. These laws will not end abortion anymore than murder laws end murder. They will however end the abortion industrial complex within these states. Women will still get abortions from doctors willing to give them and there will be very little the state can do about it. What will stop is Planned Parenthood doing abortions by the thousands and parting the dead kid out for medical research.
That will be a good thing to everyone except leftists who will never get over losing out on the money it produces.
Bingo
And that's precisely what Reason most fears, because their Moloch-worshiping multi-billion dollar fetal tissue goldmine death cult might grind to a halt.
jd is a fool. he equated gun rights to the so called right to abortion. what a farce. gun rights are actually in the constitution and "shall not be infringed", while there is no right to an abortion in the constitution.
Basically, the enforcement of perfectly legitimate laws (against murder, rape, burglary, etc.) is tainted by, among other things, 4th Amendment violations. If the cops violate the 4th Amendment to pursue abortion cases, I guess this will be used as evidence to legalize abortion.
But this proves too much, since cops violate the 4th Amendment on behalf of all sorts of legitimate criminal laws. Legalizing burglary (for example) shouldn't be on the table, even if (as I suspect) we can find lots of evidence of police misbehavior in going after suspects.
Punishing guilty cops (and prosecutors, etc.) is a much better answer.
Then cause the baby-killers pain:
BRING.
IT.
ON.
Poolaw shot methamphetamine intravenously 2 days before she reported the "miscarriage". Terrible example, Reason
Mail order meth to terminate your pregnancy is kosher, just make sure you don't take any of those horse dewormer pills for COVID!
I was worried about Reason. I'd read a couple articles in a row that weren't thinly veiled rip-n-reads from the DNC.
Fortunately, you have redeemed your left-wing credentials.
Murder IS NEVER FREEDOM. If that was the case our prison would be a whole lot emptier! Guess we can fill them now with a newer kind of selfish stupid people!
I’m going to guess you believe that life starts at conception because God tells you it is so. Correct me if I assume wrongly.
If I am right in my assumption, do you acknowledge others, most others, don’t have the same beliefs you do?
I will save this for every time that you post saying everyone else is wrong
Like Luther when asked "Are you alone wise?" White Mike answers in the affirmative. Because White Mike a deluded, narcissistic piece of shit should be removed from society because he has no value as a human being, no purpose, and no possible reason to live.
Coming from the retard who wants to use the 12th century standard of "quickening" as a legal construct for modern abortion policy, this is rich beyond fucking belief.
Why don't you set us all an example and abort yourself, Mikey? Don't worry, nobody in your life can stand your presence for more than 12 consecutive seconds, you would be doing the world and yourself a huge favor.
No but seriously, I'm not joking, kill yourself. Like, immediately if possible. At your soonest opportunity. You are are subhuman. The entire human race will rejoice when you leave it. Your parents will probably put your "deadname" on the gravestone too btw.
Of course this is the key issue the pro-liberty camp misses. It's not just that a zygote is a very real blueprint for a future taxpayer which the state has a vested interest to enforce someone gestating, it's that it is *God's* blueprint. But in the brave new woke world we're supposedly not allowed to talk about or make laws based on this.
There's no painless way to stop people from raping, murdering and stealing either, yet we do it. Stopping people from doing anything should be based on morality, not difficulty of enforcement.
I regrettably support some form of legalized abortion, but that doesn't mean using mental gymnastics and judicial activism to achieve it.
"I have not yet adequately expressed the more than anxiety that I feel at the ever increasing scope given to the Fourteenth Amendment in cutting down what I believe to be the constitutional rights of the States. As the decisions now stand, I see hardly any limit but the sky to the invalidating of those rights if they happen to strike a majority of this Court as for any reason undesirable. I cannot believe that the Amendment was intended to give us carte blanche to embody our economic or moral beliefs in its prohibitions. Yet I can think of no narrower reason that seems to me to justify the present and the earlier decisions to which I have referred. Of course the words due process of law, if taken in their literal meaning, have no application to this case; and while it is too late to deny that they have been given a much more extended and artificial signification, still we ought to remember the great caution shown by the Constitution in limiting the power of the States, and should be slow to construe the clause in the Fourteenth Amendment as committing to the Court, with no guide but the Court's own discretion, the validity of whatever laws the States may pass."
The question is moot. We are all about to be aborted.
Ever notice how the only people who give a single flying fuck about the abortion issue are blue haired harpies whom no sane man would ever bring his dick within a 15 foot radius and their effete, metrosexual, "male feminist" henpecked husbands like CuckChilli who already live in deep blue enclaves where the issue will never be in contention in the first place?
My favorite bit has been the #sexstrike thing. Like, yeah, imagine... keeping your festering fucking ax wound off of strange cocks might lead you to not needing so many fucking abortions, you pathetic used up cock holster.
ITT: Shreek spouts literally every single ActBlue talking point straight from the daily PDF.
J.D. Tuccille's column stands out above all others as the most concise explanation of the legal and human complexities following the Dobbs decision. Kudos, sir.
If by "complexities" you mean "fever dream fantasies", then I guess.
"Really, laws work only for defining penalties for engaging in acts that virtually everybody agrees are wrong."
That's BS. Looking at the drug debate alone, no not virtually everybody aggress all drugs that are illegal should be and yet the government has NO problem enforcing drug related laws. Same geos for abusive gun restrictions. The author is engaged in trying to "Normalizing The Outlier" when using the example of the young women locked up for aborting her baby via drugs and when talking about miscarriage's. That women being locked up was an example of the system, specifically DA's, being abusive of its power, something it does for any law it can and not just abortions related. The fix there isn't to make abortion legal but the DA's more accountable for abuse of power.
AS for the Privacy excuse BS that was always an excessive reach b/c their is no Constitutional right to murder and unborn human being and the court had to find some create work-a-round to that so it could create the right. What 2 grown adults to to each other in consent is privacy but when a woman and 1 or more others decide to end the life of an unborn child there is no right privately do that.
lastly don't let the authors attempts to try and paint most abortion as being some simple chemical process. When the fetus is not yet far enough along they use suction to suck it out while it's still alive and if its tool large for that then they cut the body pars off again while the fetus is alive. Let that sink in. On a cruel & vile person could engage in aborting an unborn human child in these ways not evening having the decency to first chemical kill the child so it's not alive while they are sucking it out or cutting it up.
Such a strange display of Christo-Fascism from people who subscribe to a Libertarian publication.
That's just weird man
If laws and enforcement mechanisms worked only for acts that almost everyone agreed were wrong, they would be pointless since people would already comply.
Bodily autonomy doesn't exist in the US. There are countless examples from selective service to drug laws to prohibition of the sex trade to the last two years of stay at home orders and mandates. That most of the people now carrying "my body = my choice" signs support most of these other restrictions is tragicomic, and it's why we will never have bodily autonomy.
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The laws that criminalize the murder called abortion aren’t there to satisfy your two dimensional political delusions.
The courts didn’t overturn Roe simply because fuckwits supported it.
Now the genocide of abortion and those who practice it will receive the just persecution they deserve.
Every criminal thinks they will get away with their crime.
Nah, a necessary step in dealing with a problem.
Imagine being so stupid that one can somehow force their mind to somehow condone taking personal freedom with implementing ways to restrict it. The GQP are out of their fucking minds lol. All they care about is "pwning" the left. Defining yourself and your morals as "owning the left" must a truly awful existence.
Sure. The reasons a woman has for getting an abortion have suddenly disappeared now that Roe is gone.
I can't imagine being such a programmed NPC that I'd use idiotic phrases like GQP.
But if you'd like to get aborted, that can be arranged.
Totalitarian cancer like you have crossed too many lines.
No, we’re providing ways to protect the rights of babies. One of them is the right not to be murdered. This was an important step in that direction.
I realize you're sad that your cloven-hoofed spawn will only be able to have their skulls cracked open at 39 weeks in a few select states for no other reason than "I just don't feel like having a baby right now," but think if it as an opportunity for your SO to have a nice vacation on the company dollar.
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well, all the ones that don't involve the health of the mother...
ie: all the convenience\inconvenience factor ones
since pregnancy is the natural outcome of sex maybe women will more carefully consider their actions.
The many, many ways that people will be able to avoid this travesty makes me proud to be an American. Resisting authoritarianism is what we do.
And your two-dimensional bullshit would have murdered my wife, made our son impossible, left me a widower and my daughter without a mother, because she had literally minutes to decide to terminate a pregnancy that was killing her.
you fetus worshippers need crosses and nails.
Just a quick reminder that only 25% of Americans support abortion on demand.
Fill your boots, criminal.
I also enjoy how commonly forced gestation proponents use this argument themselves – 'it's fine they can just go to a free state to get an abortion if they really need it'. Clear signs of a morally rigorous position.
It's not about babies; it's about sex.
Pro-lifers always talk about "unborn babies" and "murder" without ever providing any proof or identifying a consensus that vindicates such a radical interpretation. Probably because most people find it unconvincing.
And those 25% think abortion laws in Europe are more liberal.
That depends on what you mean by "abortion on demand".
If you mean "abortion up until live birth", you are giving the extremists on that side too much credit. Only 9% support abortion in the third trimester.
If you mean "abortion in the first two trimesters", you are giving the moderates less support than they've earned. 55% of Americans support legal abortion through the end of the second trimester.
If you mean "abortion without having to supply a reason other than you want one", over 2/3 of Americans (69%) support that, although it is not a very frequently asked question so there isn't the kind of volume behind it as the other two.
Of course, that is only considering quality polls. Ones like Rasmussen and similar polls with a reputation for bad methodology and practices aren't reliable. Never mind the ones done by National Right to Life or Jane's Revenge that are intentionally skewed one way or the other.
even though they are more restrictive....never underestimate the stupid of a far left low IQ propaganda puppet.
yeah..... a quick trip to another state TOTALLY undoes the inconvenience of being pregnant and having a kid.....
It'll be easier to just get a prescription sent to her for misoprostol and mifepristone. The vast majority of abortions are done with two pills.
The idea that in today's world you can't get abortion drugs remotely is laughable.
This decision will probably end up making people more aware of how easy it is and how ridiculous the "partial birth abortion" nonsense is.
That depends on what you mean by "abortion on demand".
No, the meaning is pretty clear.
References to these types of polls always amuse me.
I'd bet that not 50% of Americans could identify what a trimester is. 90% don't understand (Roe era) US abortion law and 95% don't have a clue about foreign abortion law.
About 10% of Americans could identify -- within 3 or 4 weeks -- when a fetus develops a heart beat or measurable brain waves.
And we are supposed to take seriously what people want when the media and education establishments have purposely kept them in the dark.
If a reason is required, it will result in a bureaucracy that takes 6 months to return an approval or denial. Does everyone see the problem?
Source: My ass (or maybe the ass of the 8 year old boy you just got done fucking, right shreek?)
Sure, sex should be reserved for married people who want to have children. If you don't want to get married or don't want to have children, you should die a virgin, right?
Also, if you think that people who want kids or are married don't have abortions, you are badly misinformed.
Bullshit fuckwit!
You’re the one conflating abortion required to save a life with abortion on demand representing 99.99% of abortions. Which I haven’t spoken to.
i agree that awareness of that option is likely to increase, but only 54% of abortions are done with only medication..... that really is not a "vast" majority. a significant number of women will have to travel to get the abortion.
You’ve never heard of birth control pills, condoms or plan B?
i didn't say any of that. i just said that actions have consequences and you should carefully consider your decisions. killing your child because you made a bad decision is a horrible thing to do, ever.
Right, because all US prosecutors are omniscient benevolent saints, and when up for reelection they would NEVER press charges in any grey-area case. Like an unknowable future event of whether a mother *might* have died if an abortion wasn't performed.
Fuckwit.
Not really. It's one of those things anti-abortionists say that they think is so powerful, but doesn't really mean anything. If we go by the actual meaning of the words, most Americans support the right to have a legal abortion without having to wait or provide a reason. That would be what "on demand" means, but I'm sure that's not what you think it means.
Might?
Do you think that YOU should get away with shooting someone who “might” threaten you sometime in the future?
That’s everyone.
Yeah
Don’t be so eager to murder and in 9 months everyone is okay.
Educate yourself on the science of human life and the history of disinformation that you have swallowed hook line and sinker.
http://www.hli.org/resources/the-conception-conundrum/
Isn’t the purpose of all medicine essentially pro life?
Why else would physicians take the Hippocratic oath to this day since 275 ad?
An excerpt “I will do no harm or injustice to them.[6] Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. ”
I use the results from multiple polling organizations over time. The longer the same question has been asked in the same way, the more it tells you about American sentiment.
There are quality organizations like Pew, Gallup, Quinnipiac, Marist, and others that have been asking about issues like abortion for decades with transparent processes, rigorous standards, and high-quality results.
"About 10% of Americans could identify -- within 3 or 4 weeks -- when a fetus develops a heart beat"
None of them would be anti-abortionists, since they believe that a fetus can have a heartbeat roughly 4 weeks before it has a heart.
"And we are supposed to take seriously what people want when the media and education establishments have purposely kept them in the dark."
Nobody's keeping anyone in the dark. Sure, there's a crapload of propaganda and misinformation from the anti-abortion influence campaigns, but that happens all the time with hot-button issues. But people aren't idiots. When you ask "should abortion be completely illegal, illegal in most cases, legal in most cases, or legal in all cases", it's safe to say that they understand. When they are asked if abortion should be banned in the second half (or sometimes asked as "after 20 weeks" because the wording changed back in the 90s), they understand.
Saying that people who you don't know and about whom you are completely ignorant can't understand what they are being asked is basically saying either "they don't know what I know, or they would agree with me" or "they don't agree with me, so they must be ignorant". It is hubris on your part. Or a compelte unwillingness to admit that intelligent, informed people who know what they believe and why they believe it overwhelmingly reject your beliefs.
More likely they know exactly what they are saying. Especially since they have asked the same questions for so long there are different generations of people in their results.
Do you think that everyone has been ignorant in exactly the same way since the early 1970s? Do you think that the billions of dollars spent by pro-life and anti-abortion groups on influence campaigns have 100% fallen on deaf ears, since they haven't ?changed anything in 50 years
Or is it more likely that the opinion of Americans about abortion has remained consistently in favor of legal abortion because that is the more rational, reasonable, compelling, and liberty-oriented position.
Occam's Razor says that results that consistent over that large a timeframe is best explained by acknowledging that America is a pro-choice country.
If you want to see a good list of polling organizations and their reliability, check here: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/pollster-ratings/
You, like most anti-abortionists, can't seem to understand the difference between potential and reality. Don't tell me about what might happen in the future. Tell me about what is real in the present.
And do you really think a Catholic anti-abortion organization is an unbiased source of information? Are you that clueless?
I guess you would have to ask the specific doctor about their thoughts on the Hippocratic Oath. It isn't my business how they view their obligations and responsibilities. Nor, for that matter, is it yours.
Yes, really. You're doing your best to obfuscate it, but failing miserably.
If we go by the actual meaning of the words, most Americans support the right to have a legal abortion without having to wait or provide a reason.
No, they don't. Most Americans support abortion with certain restrictions. Stop lying.
That would be what "on demand" means, but I'm sure that's not what you think it means.
No, that's not what "on demand" means. Stop lying.
You fail to recognize that having potential doesn’t exclude reality.
You and Roe lost that argument.
You’re the fuckwir who can’t refute the information.
Now do gun control re: potential and reality.
Technically it means "when wanted or needed". And that is, in fact, what most people support regarding abortion. There is a great deal of opposition to waiting periods, mandatory ultrasounds, and other unnecessary and intrusive requirements that anti-abortionists have shoved between a doctor and their patient over the years. It's not like infringing rights and authoritarianism is new to the anti-abortion crowd.
Heroic semantic campaign, typical of the genre.
I oppose most gun control proposals that the left is pursuing. Most of them would be ineffective, intrusive on the Second Amendment, or otherwise problematic.
army of culture war cretins... fyi, nobody fucking wants the endless vivid reminders of what your no-doubt prodigious secured private image cache contains.
It turns out the easiest way to judge the issue is to look at the quality of the character of those spouting abuse like yours.