John Roberts and the Path SCOTUS Did Not Take on Abortion
Although the chief justice's incrementalism did not sway his colleagues, his observations about the meaning of a "right to choose" could be relevant in state legislatures.

Chief Justice John Roberts agreed that the Mississippi law at issue in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, which generally prohibits abortion after 15 weeks of gestation, should be upheld. But he argued that the five justices in the majority went too far on Friday by overturning Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision that said women have a constitutional right to terminate a pregnancy, and Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the 1992 decision that reaffirmed Roe's "central holding." Roberts' take on the issue not only points to a judicial path not taken; it raises a crucial question for state legislators as they decide how to exercise the new power that Dobbs gives them to regulate abortion: What does "the right to choose" mean?
Roberts' partial concurrence argues that the majority violated "a simple yet fundamental principle of judicial restraint" by going further than was necessary to resolve the case. He notes that Mississippi initially said the Court could uphold its law without completely renouncing the right to abortion identified in Roe and upheld in Casey. That position is reflected in the way the state framed the main question for the Court when it sought review of the 5th Circuit decision rejecting the 15-week ban: "whether all pre-viability prohibitions on elective abortions are unconstitutional."
After the Court agreed to hear the case, however, Mississippi broadened its argument, urging the justices to hold that the Constitution does not protect a right to abortion at all. "The Court now rewards that gambit," Roberts writes, "noting three times that the parties presented 'no half-measures' and argued that 'we must either reaffirm or overrule Roe and Casey.'" As Roberts sees it, the Court should have stuck with the question as originally presented. "If it is not necessary to decide more to dispose of a case," he says, "then it is necessary not to decide more."
As was apparent during oral argument in Dobbs, Roberts agrees that the "viability" line drawn by Roe and Casey—based on the point at which a fetus can survive outside the womb—never made sense. That line, which is contingent on both medical advances and the quality of local health care, nowadays is generally placed around 24 weeks, making Mississippi's law clearly unconstitutional under the Court's pre-Dobbs precedents. But the Court never offered a satisfying justification for that cutoff, Roberts says, or explained why the rule was necessary to make sure that women have a meaningful right to choose whether to continue a pregnancy.
"For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester," Roe said, "the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician." After that, "the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health." Finally, "for the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother."
Casey ditched Roe's "rigid trimester framework," saying the state's concern for maternal health and its "interest in potential life" are both valid reasons for regulating abortion "even in the earliest stages of pregnancy." At the same time, Casey retained what the controlling opinion described as Roe's "central holding," ruling out bans on pre-viability abortions. Under the test established by Casey, states were not allowed to impose an "undue burden" on access to abortion, which included any regulation that "has the purpose or effect of placing a substantial obstacle in the path of a woman seeking an abortion of a nonviable fetus."
In Roberts' view, the focus on "viability" was a mistake from the beginning, as many legal scholars, including several who favored broad abortion rights, argued at the time and continued to argue in the decades afterward. "Roe set forth a rigid three-part framework anchored to viability, which more closely resembled a regulatory code than a body of constitutional law," the chief justice writes. "That framework, moreover, came out of thin air. Neither the Texas statute challenged in Roe nor the Georgia statute at issue in its companion case, Doe v. Bolton, included any gestational age limit. No party or amicus asked the Court to adopt a bright line viability rule. And as for Casey, arguments for or against the viability rule played only a de minimis role in the parties' briefing and in the oral argument."
Given that background, Roberts says, it is "hardly surprising that neither Roe nor Casey made a persuasive or even colorable argument for why the time for terminating a pregnancy must extend to viability. The Court's jurisprudence on this issue is a textbook illustration of the perils of deciding a question neither presented nor briefed. As has been often noted, Roe's defense of the line boiled down to the circular assertion that the State's interest is compelling only when an unborn child can live outside the womb, because that is when the unborn child can live outside the womb….The viability rule was created outside the ordinary course of litigation, is and always has been completely unreasoned, and fails to take account of state interests since recognized as legitimate."
Roe and Casey not only failed to justify the viability line on moral or legal grounds, Robert says; they did not explain why the rule was necessary to ensure that women had ample opportunity to decide whether to terminate a pregnancy. "Our precedents in this area ground the abortion right in a woman's 'right to choose,'" he says. "The law at issue allows abortions up through fifteen weeks, providing an adequate opportunity to exercise the right Roe protects. By the time a pregnant woman has reached that point, her pregnancy is well into the second trimester. Pregnancy tests are now inexpensive and accurate, and a woman ordinarily discovers she is pregnant by six weeks of gestation."
In support of that last point, Roberts cites a 2017 study that found, based on survey data, that "the mean gestational age at time of pregnancy awareness was 5.5 weeks." Since that was the average, many women realized they were pregnant somewhat later. The overall prevalence of "late pregnancy awareness," meaning at seven weeks or later, was 23 percent. But the study's supplemental graphs show that pregnancy awareness after 15 weeks was rare.
Those findings are consistent with data on the timing of abortions. In 2019, according to data collected by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), just 4 percent of abortions in the United States were performed after 15 weeks. In Mississippi, the share was less than 1 percent.
As Roberts notes, some jurisdictions have enacted laws that "forbid abortions after twenty weeks of pregnancy, premised on the theory that a fetus can feel pain at that stage of development." Even states that generally allow elective abortions with few or no restrictions often limit them after "viability," defined either by medical judgment or by a specific dividing line, typically 24 weeks. Although the former type of law is conventionally described as "pro-life" and the latter qualifies as "pro-choice," they have about the same practical impact. In 2019, according to the CDC's numbers, just 1 percent of abortions in the United States were performed at 21 weeks or later.
The exceptions allowed by state law vary. New York's Reproductive Health Act, for example, allows abortion after 24 weeks when it is "necessary to protect the patient's life or health." Although the law does not define "health," Doe v. Bolton said that medical judgment includes "physical, emotional, psychological, [and] familial" factors as well as "the woman's age," which are "relevant to the wellbeing of the patient" and "may relate to health."
Mississippi's 15-week ban, by contrast, applies "except in medical emergency and in cases of severe fetal abnormality." The law defines "medical emergency" to include pregnancies that could prove lethal or that pose "a serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function." Alabama's Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act, which applies after 20 weeks, has a similar "medical emergency" exception.
The specific exceptions obviously can make a crucial difference in rare cases. But by and large, Roberts argues, a law like Mississippi's 15-week ban is consistent with a "right to choose."
The picture looks quite different when you consider "heartbeat" laws that prohibit elective abortions after fetal cardiac activity can be detected, which typically happens around six weeks into a pregnancy. Nationwide in 2019, according to the CDC's numbers, 57 percent of abortions were performed after six weeks. Since some of the rest also would be covered by the "heartbeat" laws, those bans affect a large majority of abortions. And unlike 15-week or 20-week bans, such laws cover a substantial percentage of women who do not yet realize they are pregnant, as indicated by the study that Roberts cites.
That reality seems clearly inconsistent with a meaningful "right to choose." But Roberts thinks the Court should have simply upheld Mississippi's 15-week ban, leaving for another day the question of whether a stricter law would also pass muster. If the Court were later presented with a case involving a six-week ban, however, the question of whether the Constitution protects any right to abortion would have been unavoidable.
In most of the states that are expected to impose or start enforcing new restrictions on abortion, Roberts' reflections on what "the right to choose" means will strike legislators as irrelevant, since they recognize no such right. The general tendency in states where pro-life sentiment is strong is to ban abortion at any stage of pregnancy with narrow exceptions. Legislators in states where pro-choice sentiment is strong likewise will not be much interested in what Roberts has to say, since they generally want to maintain or even expand current abortion access. But for the handful of states in the middle, where anti-abortion legislators must contend with widespread skepticism of blanket bans, line drawing remains a live issue.
Florida, for example, has a 15-week ban that may ultimately be upheld by a state supreme court that will soon have a majority appointed by Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis, who supported that law and has said he also favors a six-week ban. The 15-week ban, which is scheduled to take effect on July 1, would affect less than 4 percent of abortions in Florida, according to the CDC's data.
In deciding whether to go further, Florida legislators will have to keep in mind that most of the state's residents—56 percent, according to a multistate survey that the Pew Research Center conducted in 2014—think abortion should be legal in most or all cases. A University of North Florida survey conducted in February found that 57 percent of registered voters opposed even the relatively modest 15-week ban. But Roberts' logic suggests that legislators can consistently support that law even while rejecting broader restrictions as inconsistent with "the right to choose."
The issues raised by Roberts are also potentially relevant in Pennsylvania. New abortion restrictions are unlikely there in the short term, but that situation could change after this year's elections.
Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Wolf, a Democrat who is in the last year of his second term, supports abortion rights. Although Republicans control both houses of the state legislature, they do not have veto-proof majorities. The Democratic nominee to replace Wolf, Attorney General Josh Shapiro, likewise supports abortion rights. But the Republican nominee, state Sen. Doug Mastriano, welcomes the demise of Roe, describes abortion as "science-denying genocide," and brags about sponsoring a "heartbeat bill" in 2019.
Public support for abortion rights is weaker in Pennsylvania than in Florida. In the Pew survey, 51 percent of adults said abortion should be legal in all or most cases, while 44 percent said it should be illegal in all or most cases. A May survey by Franklin & Marshall College found that 31 percent of registered voters thought abortion should be "legal under any circumstances," while 54 percent said it should be "legal under certain circumstances" and 14 percent said it should be "illegal in all circumstances."
That middle position is ambiguous, since it could include people who favor a six-week ban or even a nearly complete prohibition, as long as it included exceptions. Right now Race to the WH puts Shapiro's chance of winning the governor's race at more than 70 percent. But if Mastriano defies current expectations or Republicans expand their representation in the legislature, new restrictions are possible, in which case defining "certain circumstances" will be suddenly salient. That would make Roberts' observations newly relevant.
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Mississippi law at issue in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, which generally prohibits abortion after 15 weeks of gestation, should be upheld.
France and Sweden prohibit abortion after 14 weeks. I wonder if Mississippi will have a rush of Frenchwomen and Swedes escaping their literally Handmaids Tale.
In France and Sweden women have state provided health care so there is no issue of money or attempted delays. Yes, women have less time but no extraneous issues to deal with and so 14 weeks is enough. The France and Swedish women's situation are not equivalent to American women.
So you think the problem will be that women want to have abortions but will be unable to?
Some will be unable to. The biggest problem may be where the woman is in a conservative family, living in a state where they can sue anyone who assists her with an abortion.
Others might not be able to arrange travel to a state where they can obtain a legal abortion.
Travel isn't really challenging anymore, if a woman is not on the fence I doubt tht logistics will be such a severe impediment as to cause a woman who is fully decided to find herself trapped
Get woke! Abortion, like voting, should not require any effort or personal imposition.
So do you believe that, taking your proffered example above, a woman could arrange transportation within a state but not to a neighboring state with conservative family that (theoretically) would be unwilling/hostile to helping? Is the first trimester too restrictive of a timetable for scheduling? Too restrictive for transportation? Is your solution to have Ms. Good Womb trucks circling neighborhoods like ice cream trucks used too?
It’s just rough when you can’t murder your own kid because you’re short on funds.
You need a new user name
Fascism4ever was already taken by Shrike.
You should probably move there.
Would be a good idea anyway to escape justice for your crimes in Wisconsin for the 2020 election.
Elective procedures generally have to be paid out of pocket in European healthcare systems. In Sweden, women pay for elective abortions out of pocket. I think in France, they pay for part of it.
Indeed not! French and Swedish women, on average, are substantially poorer and have fewer choices when it comes to healthcare.
"Free" healthcare often comes with long waiting lists - the British NHS and the American VA being especially notorious - so being elective and paid out of pocket must help with getting timely access to a time-critical procedure. How much does an early abortion really cost without the American burden of malpractice insurance, defensive ordering of every test imaginable, and paying patients being made to subsidize indigents throughout the system?
Even if it were true that those oh so poor American women can’t get the abortion they need before week 14 because the evil and oppressive circumstances literally deprive them from it:
Should we base laws on circumstances?
If the country were so poor that they can’t abort before week 72 (lol) should they be allowed to slam it to death a couple of weeks after squeezing it out?
You just unraveled all of the progressive/Marxist views.
Blm /antifa can loot and destroy because of their circumstance
So, women are critically incompetent and need special legal protection?
This is the most ludicrous argument. You are grasping at straws in this abs it's amazingly apparent. I agree, it's time you change your name.
That’s nothing that couldn’t be solved with a Planned Parenthood payment plan.
Yes, Maybe addressing the metric of it all was a mistake by the Supreme Court.
#1. Every person should be able to decide if they themselves are going to reproduce or not at any time.
#2. State's don't have any right to run around "banning" human service's in a prejudice manner. What will be next? Banning smokers from seeking cancer treatment?
#3. (The KEY) It is the State's right to file charges of "murder" in medical procedures and it'll have to go through court hearings.
There you have it. EVERYONE has the right to Fetal Ejection....
Doctors don't have the right to intentionally kill whatever that fetus may be.
"Banning smokers from seeking cancer treatment?"
I see you're back with your anti-science halfwit analogies, you murderous sludge.
Still going to argue that the Catholics rigged all the dictionaries again?
Your ignorance of the 'evidence' is staggering.
Calling your crazy conspiracy theory "evidence" is staggering.
I've already pulled it multiple times in the past from the waybackmachine.... I'm not going to keep fetching it for you just to waste my time proving other's ignorance.
Climate Change freaks.....
"I see you're back with your anti-science.... blah, blah, blah"
Why it's almost like people on both side's spout the same propaganda to get that almighty Gov-Gun Power.
Yes, Maybe addressing the metric of it all was a mistake by the Supreme Court.
Well, I guess we've seen you move from:
it's not happening
to
Ok, it might be happening but it's not as bad as you say.
And the Doctor is going to be able to save 0% before the Roe v Wade Metric.. All you're doing is [WE] gang building with biases and prejudice.
You do. You make that decision by either having or not having unprotected sex.
Furthermore, people who choose to reproduce are currently socializing the cost of their choice: education, childcare, and healthcare for their kids. Until you stop imposing the cost of your reproductive choices on society, don't complain if society concerns itself with your reproductive choices.
Well, obviously, under the US Constitution, they have just that power. For example, many kinds of transplants are banned. Many drugs are banned.
Restricting abortion doesn't require charging it as murder; it's sufficient to outlaw it and make it a felony to perform it. Same as with other illegal medical procedures.
Well, you can "eject" a fetus all you want. But medical procedures are subject to state and federal law, and under US law, you do not have a right to have any medical procedure of your choosing performed on you.
Your points summarized
1) We're already a Nazi-Nation so just as well start dictating.
2) There is no limits on State Gov-Gun Power...
3) There is no reason to grant people a right to decide if they reproduce..
x) You don't have a right to seek medical attention for yourself that the government doesn't bless..
Sorry.. None of those points are inline with the foundation of the USA (Individual Liberty and Justice for all).
The Founding Fathers created a system of representative, democratic government to accomplish this goal. That means that if we want medical freedom enshrined nationally and/or at the state level, we need to do so through the legislative process.
Yes, and it is "Nazi scum" like you who piss on our legislative process who is responsible for that.
So.... When it comes to a dictation you're passionate about..
You're part of the "democracy" of Gov-Guns rules! tribe...
I fail to see how "banning" medical services isn't National Socialism (Nazism)... UR projecting...
SCOTUS isn't "banning medical services". SCOTUS is leaving the issue to the states. All US states have a republican, democratic form of government and make these decisions via their normal legislative processes. That is how free countries function; this is the very opposite of fascism.
No, YOU are projecting. YOU are literally advocating the fascist approach to government, where a strong national government circumvents the legislative process and just imposes its will on the entire nation. That is how Nazi Germany operated.
SCOTUS threw the Individual Right to privacy away if "potential life" is part of the equation --- It's right there in the ruling.
Every pregnancy is now property of the State instead of the very person who is pregnant.
And why did they make that ruling??? So State's could go around "banning" medical services on them...
It isnt potential. It is already life. Cells are splitting, the baby is growing, energy is being expended. It is literally already life you ignorant sod.
So set the Life FREEEE..... (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
Omg this isn't hard at all... The only thing hard about it 'religious faith' indoctrination.
If you're not going to let the Woman kick the bumb out don't sit and complain about what the Woman is going to do with bumb...
UR making a catch-22 ( You will be enslaved by the State ) or else situation.
How many times are you going to use the same ignorant comments?
...And the counter-point is.................... NOTHING...
Maybe instead of compulsively insisting your original opinion on the subject is correct. Another analysis of it might be in order.
And don't forget; That the only thing that separates government from any run-of the mill organization is the legal ability to threaten people with GUNS...
There is no "individual right to privacy" under the Constitution. Roe incorrectly recognized such a right.
And the Constitution didn't grant such a right because it didn't have to: it defined the delegated powers of the federal government, nothing more. Most rights and obligations are defined by state constitutions. It's been that way since this country was founded.
No, your pregnancy is your own property: you caused it and you own it. In blue states, you can even abort it.
They made that ruling because it is the obviously constitutionally correct ruling. We know that because the dissenting opinion makes no argument against the constitutionality of the ruling; the dissenting opinion only says that after 50 years, this shouldn't be overturned.
There is no "individual right to privacy".... And so the Dobb's ruling should've recognized that huh? Instead re-enforcing it for everyone EXCEPT those 'evil' people who don't want to be FORCED by Gov-Guns into turning their "potential life" into offspring.
Dobbs just ruled that the 13th Amendment doesn't exist because.... Apparently one can be enslaved by "potential life". And as a Slave of the State; therefore cannot be granted equal protection.
Yea; the *reality* of it really is that bad... And you thought Roe v Wade was a bad ruling...
Actually it's quite flooring the way the ruling reads...
It basically stated that; People have a right to privacy EXCEPT the people who are pregnant (termed "potential life")...
Well, both you and Thomas recognize that; hence Thomas's dissent.
The correct resolution of this is to revisit Griswold, Obergefell, etc. as Thomas suggests, and for legislatures to enshrine those rights through legislation.
But, of course, Democrats don't want to do that. In fact, most of the Democrats who claim to support gay marriage actively fought it when it was a legislative issue.
Marriage is a recognition of the State and Union (feds) in Tax-Code.
There are vast differences between those two subjects.
As Rand Paul said it perfectly... I don't want my 'marriage' or my 'guns' registered in Washington.
The correct resolution of this is to..... Grant EVERYONE a Right to Privacy... (Have a PERSONAL life outside the hands of Gov-Gun dictation).
And there is a solution as I will keep presenting.....
Every pregnant Woman should have the PERSONAL CHOICE (will over herself) to free her ?baby?... (i.e. Fetal Ejection).
because if you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting FORCED reproduction.
You’re welcome to try to pass a right to privacy as a constitutional amendment. You’re also welcome to work on pro choice laws in all 50 states. Really, any time now.
DONE!
4th Amendment --
The right of the people to be secure in their persons
Next...
The 4A doesn't establish a general right to privacy, it establishes a right against "unreasonable searches and seizures". Anti-abortion laws don't violate the 4A. In fact, SCOTUS just gave you a lengthy explanation why they don't.
Wake me when you get to the part where abortion is baby murder.
Oh yeah; I read that 'religious' ceremony of a ruling...
And that reason the 4th Amendment nor the 13th Amendment, nor the 14th Amendment, nor the (a whole pack of them) doesn't apply?????
"potential life"..... SCOTUS just ruled that all the Amendments establishing Individual Liberty are subjective to "potential life" whatever that means remains a mystery....
Cool that I have a right to eject a fetus but not sure how to exercise that right. Tragically I was born without a uterus. It's a chromosome thing.
You can't because God himself didn't grant you an inherent right to reproduce. Don't get all psycho mad about it and run around with Gov-Guns stopping everyone else from doing it out of envy though..
"Gov-Guns" takes half of my earnings and enslaves me for half of my life, a lot of it to finance the reproduction of wayward women. Talk to me again about "Gov-Guns" when you have stopped that kind of enslavement. Until then, you can go to hell with your fake support for individual liberty.
Whatever gave you the impression I didn't support ENDING all that COMMUNISM???? Because I can assure you I do....... Massively and without question....
There is nothing 'fake' about my principles...
Anti-Choice Republicans? Well............
And... Need I forget
Pro-Choice Democrats (National Socialists-Nazi's)? Well............
Both parties are 100% hypocrites on the subject.
"For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester," Roe said, "the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician."
Help me out here, what am I missing? That's 12 weeks. Twelve... weeks.
"Then... leave it in the hands of the docs who created a billion dollar industry out of abortion"
Alito destroyed Roberts asks in his holding. He correctly stated how there were already aware on the booms for less than 15 weeks and roberts would have simply had the courts involved yet again immediately. Likewise the standard roberts offered of "percentage of women aborting by date" is just as arbitrary as viability as it too is an ever shifting line that is changed based on laws. It is a ridiculous standard with no meaning.
I think Nutless Johnny is just scared of what people think.
Thank Hillary Clinton and the DNC for this. Any Democrat who could walk and talk should have been able to beat Trump in 2016, but Clinton fired up the Right with her "Basket of deplorables" comments, and didn't engage independents. Angling for winning the popular vote instead of the electoral college wasn't a smart move either.
She certainly did blow it. Anyone halfway personable should have been able to beat Trump.
Yeah, well they nominated the wrong person then. The Hag is a full on cunt.
Hillary hasn't blown anyone or anything since long before leaving Arkansas.
That's what interns are for.
" but Clinton fired up the Right with her "Basket of deplorables" comments, and didn't engage independents. "
Clinton had already seen the handwriting on the wall and was bitching about people who were never going to vote her way. the only hope she had was the GOP engineering the primaries to support another Bush, or Marco, or Kasich thus destroying conservative turnout.
Once that didn't happen she was doomed.
But the Court never offered a satisfying justification for that cutoff, Roberts says, or explained why the rule was necessary to make sure that women have a meaningful right to choose whether to continue a pregnancy.
How does one live in two places at once?
Are you comfortable with a woman killing the baby as its head crowns during delivery by jamming an ice pick in the back of its head?
No.
Ok, let's walk it back ten minutes, how about then?
No.
Ok, let's walk it back an hour, how about then?
No.
Ok, let's walk it back 72 hours, how about then?
I see what you're doing here.
Exactly. Tell me what the limit is? WHAT'S THE FREQUENCY, KENNETH?!!
As a practical matter, most people are probably OK with aborting a fetus before it looks recognizably human, somewhere between 6-9 weeks.
By around week 12, you see fingers, genitals, nipples, bones, heartbeat, etc., so at that point, most people will probably feel very uncomfortable about it. By around week 12, the brain has also reached a stage where it is starting to take on human characteristics.
All of those are reasons why many countries set the limit for abortion-on-demand at around 12 weeks.
That still seems arbitrary and subjective based on avoiding emotional discomfort. Somewhat similar to people who enjoy eating meat but never ever want to see (or even hear about) slaughter and initial butchering.
All criteria for when to draw the line on abortion are "arbitrary and subjective", even drawing the line at conception. We draw similar lines for the age of majority, for other kinds of criminal laws, for speed limits, etc.
That's both because many real world problems don't have clean, objective answers, and because many legal issues involve compromises between conflicting ideological positions.
many real world problems don't have clean, objective answers, and because many legal issues involve compromises between conflicting ideological positions.
That's very nicely stated.
Compromise is out of vogue these days, it seems. But there's a reason for it, and it is foundational to American jurisprudence. And there's a reason for the silly political adage that a good compromise leaves everyone a bit disappointed.
Your personal life's are subjective to [WE] mob 'compromise'???
Yes. Every. F*cking. Day.
I'm kind of having trouble parsing that guy's sentence.
Your personal life's are... is he trying to make a plural? Or is there a word missing that my life is possessive of? I have no idea what the [WE] means at all. And I don't know what mob he's talking about.
I was simply mentioning that rule of law in the country I live in is based on compromise. As in the basic examples of legislation. We have two houses of congress which both must agree to a bill. One gives equal representation to each state so as to keep the most populous states from undue power over the least populated, one gives equal representation to populations to keep the least populous states from having undue power over states with far more people.
Compromise. How you're represented is messy, and weird, but neither extreme seems fair without a compromise.
When they agree to pass a law they have to convince the executive branch to sign off. If the president decides to stonewall popular legislation they can override a veto, but have to have a supermajority of the legislature to do so, proving that it's really popular with the broadest swath of representatives.
Compromise. Weird, messy processes, but they keep anyone from having absolute power and force everyone to have to convince others of the merits of their legislation to get it enacted. We don't want one person to be able to stop everything, or enact anything, on their own because dictatorships are bad.
Literally everything from the constitution on down is based entirely on compromise. Separation of powers (State and Federal governments are also a separation of powers thing) is, literally, to force compromise.
You want anyone to believe in rule of law? You have to actually get them to participate. Because uncompromising ideology, which seems very common amongst the loudest people in the room right now (Press and Social Media), is how vocal minorities think they're the majority when, in fact, they're just bullies with no concept of what the rest of the nation really believes.
And, in truth, if a person's idea is so far out that they can't articulate it to me in a reasonable fashion, letting me know why they believe in the idea and understanding possible objections or that I might reject some of the reasons as unconvincing, then they're likely part of the problem.
Well posted. Part of the unfortunate problem is that (some) people have quit being rational. They only understand their feelings and disregard objective circumstances. (For example - Feeling - Dobbs overturned Roe v. Wade! Abortions are now outlawed through out the nation! : Rational - Dobbs has pushed abortion down to the state level.) And hand in hand is an inability to understand that others have a point of view. If someone doesn't agree with them, they are the enemy. And no 90% agreement either, it must be 100%. It really does create a Us v. Them landscape.
Everyone's pregnancy is now property of the State!!!
You were fine with the issue being decided by unelected black robes right up until they disagreed with you.
If the answer is so obvious then make it explicit with a constitutional amendment.
One just loves the way Power-Mad people self-justify their Gov-Gun dictation with the words "find me an explicit right" to do that thing you think you have a right to do against Gov-Gun POWER....
No-one has an explicit right to walk (not there), to talk (not there), to smoke (not there), to think (not there), to trim fingernails (not there)....
Manipulating the Constitution with childish narratives isn't going to save the USA but it will help build a Nazi-Regime (that runs around banning people from human resources).....
Rub a Pro-Life Republican and out pops a leftard.
Agree. The emotional discomfort of people is a fucking stupid dead end road in the abortion debate. It's only unborn baby's right to be born versus pregnant mother's right to abort. Clearly, there are innumerable factual variations that can accompany that on a case-by-case basis. But that's it. A pro-birth position that isn't based on the right of the unborn superseding the right of the pregnant mother is shit. A pro-life position that isn't based on the right of the pregnant mother superseding the right of the unborn is shit. Yet that rarely is the actual debate.
*Pro-choice in next to last sentence. When did Reason remove Edit?
"That still seems arbitrary and subjective "
The science of fetal development is arbitrary and subjective???
If you find that subjective then what in the world could you possibly consider objective?
And the inability (never mind the impropriety) of Roberts, or any other court to clearly define those limits is simply another argument in favor of returning the question the the States.
Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Wolf, a Democrat who is in the last year of his second term, supports abortion rights. Although Republicans control both houses of the state legislature, they do not have veto-proof majorities. The Democratic nominee to replace Wolf, Attorney General Josh Shapiro, likewise supports abortion rights. But the Republican nominee, state Sen. Doug Mastriano, welcomes the demise of Roe, describes abortion as "science-denying genocide," and brags about sponsoring a "heartbeat bill" in 2019.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere. I know where Mr. Mastriano stands, now tell me exactly where Shapiro and Wolf stand.
Don't you understand what abortion [privileges] means???
Um... Other people can't make you reproduce?
Too bad those fetuses just magically appear inside helpless women.
Too bad helpless people keep getting in car accidents out joy-riding..
What are you going to do it about use Gov-Guns and tell them they can't joy-ride anymore???? Almighty Gov-Gun toting Dictator...
If the baby can be saved...why kill it simply because the "mother" (takes more than temporarily housing a baby to be a parent, IMO) does not want the inconvenience?
Tons want to adopt. Why not permit them to adopt and the mother to go on her merry way?
It's super simple...
If you don't support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting FORCED reproduction.
No. Unless the woman is raped (which is a tiny fraction of abortions), they were pregnant by choice. They made their decision. And there is zero reason why the baby has to be killed due to the mother making a bad decision.
what "baby"???
If you cannot allow the ?baby? any freedom ur not really recognizing it are you....
And if you cannot allow the mother ownership of herself ur not really recognizing her as a person either...
You're but an outside party trying to use Gov-Gun Dictation to FORCE the Woman to keep reproducing...
My wife isn't your "baby" incubator....
You’re irrational.
Fuck you, idiot. "Personal responsibility" is great and people suck, we get it. But it isn't a fucking justification for forced birth. Make a fucking argument in support of an unborn's right to be born, and you are worthy of debate. You miss the mark by a mile with this anyone who fucks should be forced to give birth bull shit. A rape exception framework would usher in an unprecedented level of false rape accusations and ruined lives of innocent young men and also isn't based on anything to do with a right of the unborn. It misses the mark by a mile, also, by dumb fucks who think their own beliefs, personal opinions, etc. supersede others' medical decisiosn; they don't, asshole. A living unborn human's right to live sure might, but your fucking beliefs about personal responsibility don't. How often do you spend advocating for government-implemented, non-consensual sterilization of men who don't pay their child support? I'm guessing somewhere between none and nowhere near as much as you spend advocating forced birth.
Look, you can make all those arguments in state legislatures.
Throwing temper tantrums over a SCOTUS decision is not helpful to your case. Even people who are pro choice like myself want nothing to do with the pro choice movement. I’ll rather vote for a Christian conservative than those people.
You need a special argument to justify a human’s right to not be murdered?
Pro-Life isn't lobbying for 'not murdering'... No matter how much they propagandized that they are..
They could SOOOOOOOO easily make it illegal for medical services to not kill anything during medical procedures... (i.e. Fetal Ejection).
BUT.... That's not what they're lobbying for.. They are lobbying for Gov-Guns to "ban" Women from being able to stop reproducing... They're lobbying for FORCED reproduction.
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. fetal ejection)
UR supporting FORCED reproduction.
Dude, your repetitive use of 'fetal ejection' in place of 'abortion' is really, really silly. Everyone can see it is a lame attempt to euphemise, while the failed attempt at redefinition of an already clearly understood word marks you as being of the left. No matter how often you toss out 'gov-guns' it is exceptionally obvious that you are a libertine, not libertarian.
You're compulsive dismissal of Fetal Ejection is really, really silly.
Everyone can see it is a lame attempt to FORCE Women to Reproduce.
Pro-Life cannot just simply make the "murder" (their very throne of Gov-Gun worship) part of a medical procedure illegal WHY????
Oh yeah; because it's not "murdering ?babies?" that they are really upset about. It's not being able to FORCE people to reproduce... Because????? Well my best guess would be 'religious' indoctrination.
tHe HaNdmAiDs tALe, literally.
I’m agnostic. Guess what? It’s still baby murder.
Body of missing 4-year old girl recovered from Silver Lake in Everett
Think of it as an abortion in the 17th trimester.
Did your pregnancy grow legs jump out of you and wonder down to Silver Lake? Your imagination has no boundaries.
I'm earning 85 dollars/h to complete some work on a home computer. I not at all believed that it can be possible but my close friend earning $25k only within four weeks simply doing this top task as well as she has satisfied me to join.
Check further details by reaching this link..>> https://cutt.ly/profitloft
Well, damn.
https://twitter.com/megbasham/status/1541228886465323010?t=vKtqB-dQLus8RjaCqAeT4w&s=19
Sometimes I scroll the feeds of feminists with big followings and I see so clearly how much pain their ideology keeps them in. What a tragic, desperately sad way to think about men, children, and relationships.
[Link]
The irony is that US women are the most privileged, entitled, and pampered people on the planet. But it's never enough for them.
And straight men are such sex-crazed fools that they keep giving them more and more.
To be fair, the basic ethic and mission of progressives seems to be a pampered life without responsibility for everyone (except the hired help when they are working).
Not quite. It's about a pampered life without responsibility for "everyone who matters" and slavery for everyone else.
^THIS... Gov-Guns aren't a personal gift to enslave others with....
Mind your own business and play fair ( Justice )...
"Individual Liberty and Justice for all".
When the politicians who advocate pro-choice policies start "minding their own business" again, I'll consider voting for them again. I used to be a registered Democrat after all.
Right now, the pro-choice agenda is only pushed by "proto-fascists", making their (and your) arguments involving "individual liberty" a bad joke. And I won't vote for those kinds of totalitarians just so that 0.1% of the female population of this country can copulate without consequences. There really are much bigger threats to our individual liberties than that.
lol... Really... So NOT allowing Gov-Guns to decide what you're allowed to do with YOUR pregnancy is a bigger threat to Individual Liberty than if they just left you alone?
Give it up already.... You're dis-assembling because you can't deny Individual Liberty just lost hugely in this 'religious bias' Supreme Court decision.
SCOTUS correctly ruled on the legal merits of the case. They ruled neither pro abortion nor pro choice, they returned the issue to legislatures.
That's not the choice we face. In fact, for medical autonomy and freedom, we face no choice at all other than work in the legislatures. You, instead, prefer to throw temper tantrums.
As for the biggest threat to individual liberty in this country, that is fascists like you and the politicians you support. You can go to hell with your fake support for individual liberty; you have shown your true colors.
[WE] 'other' people get to decide what's best for YOU and your pregnancy...
It's PERSONAL (i.e. Non of anyone's business except who is pregnant).
I'll even support this whole "save" life narrative if it makes sense...
But Pro-Life DOESN'T make any sense...
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting [WE] mob State Gov-Guns FORCING people to reproduce.
Proggs and other statist think it is super easy to play false-flag libertarian. We see it all the time here, both in the article and in the comment section.
But you people just cannot help yourselves and the easiest way to out you is to just keep you babbling.
Asking Gov-Guns to not FORCE women to reproduce is false-flag libertarian????
Yeah, yeah; Go on with your bad self....
I will say one thing. Not even a couple years ago the 'abortion' subject wasn't even a party-line debate. The margin between Democrats and Republicans on the subject of abortion was less that 5%. Today it's 50%. Why it's almost like it's more of a [WE] gang-affiliation subject than anything else.
I support moderate pro abortion laws if passed through the legislature
I do not support fascists like you.
[WE] mobs rule!!!!
Now do the Second Amendment!
https://twitter.com/shibacore/status/1540463075979034626?t=MNetrT-ldxg-dwpR_C7v2Q&s=19
celebrating the 4th of july a little early
embarrassed and angry with my country and the way its run. somehow just gets worse and worse
[Leftist meme]
I wonder how many progressives self-induce a kind of battered spouse syndrome. They hate the relationship they are in, but just can't leave.
Pretty hilarious for penaltax Roberts to lecture about the perils of deciding a question not asked or briefed. But the bottom line here is he wants to weasel out of overturning a precedent he admits is defective because... he's a weasel.
Thought that myself. He seems to be a terrible source for such a message.
Dear citizens; The right to privacy (having a PERSONAL life) was a mistake and defective...
[WE] Gov-Gun Power-Mad fans insist Gov-Guns of the State should be able to dictate your PERSONAL life's....
What happened to the LIMITED government people on Reason..
Oh yeah; that word 'abortion' was used.. Now they're all fans of PERSONAL dictation.
The hypocrisy of both parties on the subject of 'abortion' is overwhelming.
BUt muh FeTaL EJecTioN
Rhetorically works much better with the ransom note style.
That account is reminding me of Hank on the abortion issue
It's sqrlsy2000
Hank masturbates to Kermit Gosnell’s private videos of illegal late term abortions.
At least he isn’t like Shrike. Who has a fetal erection.
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status/1541233882913202177?t=6YatjWmcxqrk79Hxdp_0Pw&s=19
Adults and children alike cool off at the clothing-optional water party during Seattle’s #Pride celebrations. Video by @KatieDaviscourt:
[Link]
This is an unforgivable fashion and style faux-pas. But even if the guy is naked (I think that's just a thin flesh colored thong), so what? Kids see a lot more nudity on European beaches.
That really varies widely depending on where you are at. Yes you will see topless women sunbathing just about anywhere - beach or park. But fully nude beaches are often separate, marked, and the etiquette is often quite formal - e.g. it's fine to be stark naked when you are lying on the beach, or swimming, but you are expected to put on a cover-up when going most anywhere else.
Rules, spoken and unspoken, for public nudity vary much like
rules for public drinking, or even public eating.
That would make Roberts' observations newly relevant.
Roberts observations will be very relevant in just a year or two. There were many legal arguments that could have made based primarily on the state's restricting the liberty and equal treatment of women. Roe ignored those in favor of attempting to parse the liberty of doctors to PERFORM abortions free from state restrictions/prohibitions.
There is no question that some pro-life states are soon going to stomp all over constitutionally protectable rights and liberties of women. Because in those cases, they are pretty clear that they really have no interest in loving the life of any fetus. What they are interested in is establishing religious standards for sexual behavior.
If the SC majority really thinks the abortion issue is solved by punting it back to the states, they are as deluded as the Dred Scott court was in thinking that the slavery issue was resolved by that case.
Abortion or privacy are not rights under the Constitution, no matter how much you may wish it.
If you think that it is resolved by getting SCOTUS to read rights into the Constitution that are not to be found there and by corrupting the rule of law in the US, you really are deluded.
In fact, most people couldn't care less about abortion and are getting increasingly annoyed by the harpies and lefties who are hijacking our political discussion.
If you want the US to become pro-choice and enshrine abortion rights, do the legwork to pass legislation on a state by state case or pass a constitutional amendment. Note: either of those will involve political compromises.
If you're not willing to do that, people like you can go to hell.
You know what else isn't a spelled out to a specific T Individual Right???
tjiweaoryr haiirgwaoepht gierswoaghjawioesrg;hjwraieo gherai;hgaiowe;jrtisoeghioershgjiowea;jrewaio;jriewoar;gheriogfajwga;hteiwasotfghjewo;
....endlessly....
But the premise is VERY VERY VERY well established.
1st Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
13th Amendment specifically.
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
4th Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons
5th Amendment
nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself
9th Amendment
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
And here you proclaiming that there is no such right to keep Gov-Guns out of people's pregnancies...
....because....... You have a religious belief that life begins at conception....
If you cannot support Fetal Ejection
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction...
It's PERSONAL; Not for [WE] mobs of 'other' people to decide.
To the contrary, I agree that the US Constitution clearly prohibits the federal government from interfering in people's pregnancies and medical decisions; this is not one of the delegated powers. However, it does not prohibit states from doing this.
No, I support an orderly legislative process, by which the ability to have an abortion is codified explicitly either in an amendment or at the state level. That is how our nation is supposed to function.
Oh, you are right, it's PERSONAL. The primary political force behind pro-choice legislation right now is a bunch of fascists who cynically use arguments about individual liberty to gain political power, advance their fascist agenda, and destroy the rule of law. And while I am mildly sympathetic to the pro-choice arguments in principle, hell will freeze over before I suppose those kinds of people.
Again....
"Individual Liberty" is fascist...
Democracy ( [WE] mob directed Gov-Gun dictation ) isn't.
Okay... I understand your point; I don't agree with it.
No, what is "fascist" is the end-run around legislative processes, the undemocratic imposition of your preferred policies that you and your ilk advocate.
And let's not kid ourselves, you don't give a f*ck about individual liberty; this is just a convenient issue for you to advocate giving more power to the fascists you support.
People who actually care about liberty in this country, people who are not fascists like you, are going to work in the legislatures and make their case for legalizing abortion in the courts.
Sorry about the typo; the last paragraph should say:
People who actually care about liberty in this country, people who are not fascists like you, are going to work in the legislatures and make their case for legalizing abortion to voters.
Democracy ( [WE] mob directed Gov-Gun dictation ) isn't.
Yep... You just keep saying it.
Correct: democracy isn't fascist, even if it limits "rights" you think you have.
Circumventing the legislature in order to achieve the outcomes you think are desirable is fascist. That's what you advocate, making you a fascist.
Hitler came to power through a "Democratic" system by being appointed Chancellor. I wouldn't be placing any bets on....
"democracy" isn't fascist even if it limits Individual Rights.
We are a CONSTITUTIONAL Union of Republican States...
The very description U yourself lead me to.
Yes, just like the Democrats have come to power through a democratic system. And just like the Democrats, once in power, he hated the fact that he was still constrained by parliament, just like you and the Democrats do. He wanted to do what he thought was right for the country, without the mob interfering. And when he didn't like the decision of the court on his "J6", he set up his own court that ruled the way he wanted and started executing political opponents by the dozen.
We are! And that Constitution does not contain a right to an abortion, or a general right to privacy, as the constitutional court just explained to you in a very well reasoned argument. Therefore, this matter is a state issue, as the Constitution explicitly says.
But, like the German fascists, that isn't good enough for you. If the courts don't rule the way you want them to, well, then like Hitler, you are going to get angry at them. Lucky for the rest of us that the little Hitlers like you in the Democratic party still lack the power and public support to put their schemes into action.
Does your right to privacy prevent an adult from fucking a 4 year old ttj? That is where your beliefs lead.
2-Individuals.... Justice is protecting both of their Individual Liberty to the maximum extend....
Ya know like;
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting FORCED reproduction...
The ?baby? is liberated.
The mother is liberated..
Simple.
A baby is an individual. Have you still not taken a biology class?
Apparently not. All we see is this rambling.
LMAO.............. Omg... that is just too funny.
You all just of well of said, "It's only an Individual if we can get the Gov-Gun Authority we want."
And the very foundation of the debate comes out; Power-Mad hungry for those Gov-Guns of dictation.
"What they are interested in is establishing religious standards for sexual behavior."
^EXACTLY CORRECT.....
I just skimmed through the ruling. The majority reasoning is that the right to privacy still exists but NOT when "potential life" is part of the equation....
I guess pulling the plug on Grandpa according to his own will who's been in a pain stricken in and out coma for 50-years is now left to State Gov-Gun's blessing to decide..
Individual Liberty lost............... MORE Gov-Gun control.........
Well, and even if that were correct, so what? We are a nation in which government depends on the consent of the governed. You don't get to impose your irreligious standards for sexual behavior on people who don't share your views.
Yes, many voters object to assisted suicide and euthanasia. Again, consent of the governed and democracy and all that.
Thanks for demonstrating the radical religious-like basis of your position. The "consent of the governed" makes no sense when nobody "governed" was forced to abort under Roe v Wade. You want the consent of a majority to be necessary to grant rights to a minority (child bearing age women) because you're a busy body moralizer.
If you mean that I am "religious-like" about the rule of law and following democratic processes, you are absolutely right.
Well, at least I'm not a fascist like you, who thinks that our rights and obligations should be determined by a few wise men in charge.
The biggest gift of Individual Liberty is YOU get to DECIDE..
Pro-Choice not Pro-Choice of the State to Dictate the People.
Anti-Choice Republicans are 'hypocrites' in every sense of the word.
UR actually going backwards from Pro-Life's original narrative which was to convince everyone that Women were "murdering children"..
But any reasonable person knows that's all propaganda like the Climate Alarmists...
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting FORCED reproduction.
It really is that simple.
I'm not pro-life.
I do support pro-choice legislation.
What I oppose is fascist rule, which is what you advocate.
Again; You believe Individual Liberty is 'fascist rule'...
I do not agree...
No, that's not what I believe. "Individual liberty" is an objective, not a form of government.
Where we differ is on how to achieve that objective. I want to achieve it by democratic means; you want to achieve that objective by elites imposing it, i.e., fascism.
And the Supreme Court and U.S. Constitution comes into your governmenting theories where?
"I guess pulling the plug on Grandpa according to his own will"
Nobody argues that is wrong.
He EXPRESSED his will.
The baby did not.
The baby did not ASK to be inside the woman. That was HER decision by her actions.
The "baby" is not a baby or person under the law. It is a zygote, then a fetus. You just want to enforce your moral religious decisions on others with no understanding how they got where they are or even understanding of the possibility of making a mistake - sex is not a powerful motivator by accident, but a design of evolution - rape, inebriation, and all the other factors often leading to conception without proper forethought.
I agree, though many people argue that nevertheless it ought to be.
Likewise, women do not have a right to an abortion under the law, though many people argue that they should have.
Hence, we need to resolve this issue in the legislatures of this country.
People like me (gay ex-Democrat) who are sympathetic to having moderate pro-choice legislation passed will rather stay at home than to vote for the kind of totalitarians that people like you want to put in charge. So if you are actually serious about passing pro-choice legislation, you need to change your strategy. Of course, in reality, the "pro-choice" position among progressives and Democrats is really just a smokescreen, just like their supposed "pro-LGBT" position; they simply want power.
Democrats champion UN-Limited "democracy" Gov-Gun Power...
Republicans support a Constitutional USA that ensures Individual Liberty and Justice for all (within the context of that Constitution);
So let's turn your "find me the right" to abort into the correct question it should be from the LIMITED Government approach the Constitution initiated. Where's the 'power' giving State Governments the right to FORCE people to reproduce??? That stance of State-Powers can enslave people according to the Constitution ended after the Civil War.
And Yes; It did take Amendments to the Constitution - and they are still there... The 13th and 14th Amendments.
https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/13th-amendment
"The "baby" is not a baby or person under the law."
Clearly it is in several states now.
"You just want to enforce your moral religious decisions on others with no understanding how they got where they are or even understanding of the possibility of making a mistake - sex is not a powerful motivator by accident, but a design of evolution - rape, inebriation, and all the other factors often leading to conception without proper forethought."
Rape is less than 5% of abortions. And why a living being must die due to somebody else's mistake is one you cannot answer.
No state has banned abortion through fetal personhood so far (though a few have drafted legislation).
Banning abortions and fetal personhood are two legally different issues.
Those states that babbled about fetal personhood won't any longer. They were never actually interested in the fetus. Just as they are not interested in a post-birth baby. Only in scarlet letters.
Who the hell do you think runs adoption agencies? Orphanages?
It ain't the pro-abortion crowd.
One thing is certain; According to the USA Constitution it isn't a citizen no matter how much State's want to thwart that...
14th Amendment....
All persons **********born*********** or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.
The State Gov-Guns now insists that all people remain on life support UNTIL??........................
We can play this Gov-Guns gets to decide everything PERSONAL now that Roe v Wade got flipped...
And that's the sh*ttest part of it all. Once upon a time Family matters were PERSONAL... Nope; MORE, MORE, MORE Gov-Gun dictation is all you F'Ers are supporting.
I don't know anymore about the rest of you. But I'm about bloody sick and tired of MORE Gov-Gun dictation in this nation.
Yet, "MORE Gov-Gun dictation" is exactly what you advocate.
UR completely delusional..
How is PERSONAL CHOICE = "MORE Gov-Gun dictation"????
Because one of the personal choices people can make is to live in a community governed by laws you disapprove of. And you're willing to impose your preference in that matter on others at gunpoint if necessary.
In general, maximizing personal choice is a Marxist objective; it is incompatible with libertarianism for many reasons.
"maximizing personal choice is a Marxist objective"
And like said before; I disagree....
And find it rather flooring you can even say such a thing.
https://twitter.com/crabcrawler1/status/1541191519432056832?t=L8F938LTFby1sNoaqPY4HA&s=19
In this thread I'm going to present an analysis of why the gas prices situation is ALL Biden's fault.
THEMES: Restricting capacities, discouraging further investments.... points of failure on the Titanic.
[Thread, links]
Roberts would have split himself between the decision and dissent if he could have.
Roberts is going to give us a 4.5 - 4.5 decision sooner or later.
He is concerned about the image of the court. As he should be, being the Chief Justice and all. But, only to an extent. Sometimes image matters less than doing the right thing.
Sometimes image matters less than doing the right thing.
Only sometimes. Wow.
So which constitutional principles should the CJ set aside in the name of making the court look good?
Obviously it was the right to privacy (i.e. PERSONAL life) for religious 'faiths' UN-reasonable definition of "potential life"....
Wonder if State Gov-Gun power will be granted when religion starts pretending every sperm is sacred? Well; a right to privacy? Whatever; you just wasted "potential life"!! Off to prison with you.
And how do we know it is UN-reasonable...
because...
If you can't support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting FORCED reproduction.
There will be no privacy or individual liberty if fascists like you get your way.
Yet, Roberts makes the court look ridiculous every time he comes up with one of these compromises. If he wants respect for the court, he should stick to ruling on matters of law and principle, rather than stick his finger in the political winds and try to gauge what the majority of Americans want.
Thomas did the right thing. The majority mostly did the right thing, though wrapped it in weasel language. Roberts made the court look ridiculous. And the dissenting opinions are blatantly political and destroy any respect for SCOTUS as a judicial institution.
I’m not a fan of Nutless Johnny.
Here is a dirty little secret about the Bill of Rights.
It does not proscribe all unfair, unjust, or unethical laws and policies.
Is it fair a young civilian adult’s life could be ruined due to mere possession of a plant, even though neither the state nor the feds allege that the adult had an intent to distribute it to kids?
Is it fair that the state can order someone to be forcibly sterilized?
Is it fair that the state can require someone to be vaccinated, upon pain of a fine?
How can the policies above be fair, just, or ethical?
The Bill of Rights does not proscribe the above.
There is nothing dirty or secret about that.
The Bill of Rights was a limit on federal power, intended to allow the states the liberty to implement policies that the people living in those states decided upon through representative government.
And in a free country, what is "fair, just and ethical" is ultimately determined with the consent of the governed, through the legislative process. If you identify something that is unfair, unjust, or unethical, you will have to spend a few years or a few decades of your life to get laws/amendments passed to deal with it. It's a slow and tedious process, but it is a lot better than the alternatives.
That is bullshit - the Bill of Rights enumerated and implied as unenumerated in the 9th amendment are limits on all governments - including the states - not just the federal government.
Cut the shit.
The complete Bill of Rights has not been incorporated, and even the most strident supporter of complete mechanical incorporation (Black) explicitly did not support incorporating the 9th.
Tell me you don't understand what the constitution does.
You're wrong:
[source]
This fact is clear from the original draft language:
Even Laurence Tribe, ardent leftist jerk that he is, says:
So you need to cut the bullshit and the lies.
Let's Go Avalanche!
I'm still calling Tampa a dynasty
Every President said they would move the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem. Trump actually did it.
Every Republican President in my life said they would overturn Roe. Reagan, Bush, and Bush were duds with their justices, with the exception of Alito and Thomas (and Scalia for Reagan).
Trump was 3 for 3, and got it overturned.
All because Obama made fun of him at a dinner in 2011
Trump was the benefactor of the GOP Senators who stole 2 seats from popularly elected presidents and gave them tto this reject who has never won a vote in his life. Yeah, I know, that's OK with you bottom dwelling losers because hey, what are your choices?
Joe, you could make a case for the Gorsuch delay, but I would argue that the Senate followed the procedure they could so to delay the nomination. Not to your liking, but as your favorite president once said, elections have consequences. So do majorities.
The second seat is on you Ds. RBG overstayed her welcome and didn't bow out when Obama was the Prez. Nothing about filling that seat with a Trump nominee was out of procedure. The fact that it happened quickly is a sorry, but not sorry consequence of the power in place at the time.
There is no such thing as a popularly elected president. That is why we have an electoral college. Not happy with the results? Too bad. How would you feel if every state had an equal amount of Electoral Representatives. Suddenly Cali would be the same as North Dakota when it came to votes. Oh, that wouldn't be fair? Why not. Because, as always, what's fair for the Dems is what they want and what's fair for the other side is F you give us what we want.
There are over a dozen other non votes on nominations by a president in the USSC history. This was not a novel instance of failure to vote.
which 2 seats? can you elaborate? 2 Justices either left or died while he was in office. What is the argument for RGB's seat, "but thats not what RGB wanted!!" ? No one fucking cares what you or RGB want
The absolute ignorant childlike thinking of the left on full display in Joe Friday
Seeing his performance as AG, McConnell saved us from the abysmal Garland as a Justice.
Yeah, those poor honorable democrat congressmen…..
Are you fucking serious. You scumbags pull endless vile bullshit and expect everyone else to mind their P’s and Qi’s. Not anymore. So fuck you, and fuck the democrat party. You people need to learn your place and crawl back under your rocks.
The current abortion debate is a false dichotomy. Neither side Anti-Abortion and Pro-Abortion are correct and I believe neither have the support of the majority of the populace.
Abortion involves at least two human entities, although both are within the woman's body the child also has their own body.
I see the rights of these two human entities on a sliding scale where in the early stages of pregnancy the woman have the majority of the rights. As the child develops the rights start to even out.
Once the child has developed to the point that the child could be born and survive based on the technology of the day, then instead of an abortion, if a woman wants to terminate the pregnancy then labor should be induced.
Prior to this point when the child could not survive, then abortions would be allowed. The debate is how many weeks should this limit be set to.
In Europe which is often considered as a progressive example this is typically 15 weeks or less with the exception of the Netherlands. In the United States Pro-Abortion activists protest laws which set the limit at 15 weeks.
I have a problem with laws allowing a human entity to be killed moments before birth as some Pro-Abortion activists demand. I don't pretend to know exactly when the limits should take place, but feel that this being sorted out by the states is far preferable to the alternative of being dictated by a judicial decision or by federal law.
As you can see from the above statements, only one side currently recognizes this discussion as a rights balancing discussion. This is why it should be handled in the legislature and not in the judicial branch.
We can discuss the conflicting/competing rights of the mother and the fetus.
There is also the right of the people, through their representatives, to decide issues that are otherwise unclear or not generally well defined.
I know where I stand on the question of fetal life and fetal personhood. But I also recognize that this understanding is not broadly nor fully accepted. Reasonable people do disagree.
Which is all the more reason that the right to a republican form of government matters and this issue was returned to where it properly belongs.
Every pregnancy is owned by the State!!!
Keep that "democracy"; Democratic viewpoint.... /s
Yes, you want fascism instead, where elites tell the people what rights we do and don't have. It doesn't matter to you that those elites trample 99% of our rights with jackboots.
I'd rather have an 'elite' decoding of the US Constitution than a complete ignorance of it by putting a legislative government in charge of LIMITING themselves.
What you're really pushing for there is dismantling the judiciary branch.
Well, the elite has decoded and limited the legislative branch to what the Constitution spells out. That's its job.
You want the elites to go further and abuse the judicial branch to impose your policy preferences and positive rights, and that is what makes you a fascist.
No, that's what you are pushing for, because you are unwilling to accept a well-reasoned, logically coherent and correct ruling by SCOTUS. You reject their ruling not because you can find any fault with their legal reasoning, you reject it simply because you don't like the policy implications.
"Every pregnancy is owned by the State!!!"
Yes, that is exactly what this SCOTUS ruling has accomplished.
You are as erudite as you are verbose.
“I see the rights of these two human entities on a sliding scale where in the early stages of pregnancy the woman have the majority of the rights. As the child develops the rights start to even out.”
That was the status quo we had had for 50 years. Now, a few red states are going full shutdown on abortion rights.
"That was the status quo we had had for 50 years."
...except we did not. By any measure.
You need to make up your mind whether you are making a moral argument, a legal argument, or a political argument.
Morally, you may think you are correct, but lots of people disagree with you.
Legally, the situation is clear: under the US Constitution, this is a matter for state legislatures. Legally, there is also no obligation for the federal or the state government to protect every human life on this planet.
Politically, a compromise of setting the limit at 12-15 weeks is probably feasible and acceptable to the majority of Americans. And that's really all that matters.
Here you are making the mistaken assumption that pro-choice activists and politicians are interested in abortion per se; they are actually just interested political power and an excuse for rioting. They'll use whatever divisive, emotional issue they can find for that.
"Politically, a compromise of setting the limit at 12-15 weeks is probably feasible and acceptable to the majority of Americans. And that's really all that matters."
I think this is the outcome the activists and politicians fear the most. Mostly because it will prove quite acceptable to a bulk of the populace and effectively defuse the issue.
Five years from now we will still be fighting over guns, but the abortion landscape will have largely settled.
Note that Obama promised to pass the Freedom of Choice Act during his campaign right away. He had the votes in Congress to do so. But once he was elected, he said "it was not a priority". Democrats wanted to keep this issue alive and milk it for all its worth.
For situations like this, it is instructive to look at the boundary conditions. Near-full term elective abortions are clearly not acceptable for most people. Similarly, the vast majority would not accept zero elective abortions. So, a threshold in between is the best, long term solution.
That is what SCOTUS sent back to the people, the ability to set the threshold based on local conditions/opinions.
...because obviously PERSONAL CHOICE is out of the question....
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (i.e. Fetal Ejection)
UR supporting FORCED reproduction...
It amazes me how MY pregnant wife can so easily get treated as property of the State (i.e. [WE] other people's property).
Sorry about that but that is reality. Extremely late term elective abortions are murder. It is ok to regulate murder.
So regulate the "murder" out of the abortion procedure (i.e. Fetal Ejection)... This isn't hard at all....
Biases and Prejudice EXCUSES is the only thing making this hard.
Who do you think you're kidding?
Near full term elective abortions did not legally exist in 43 states under Roe. And in actual practice, did not exist anywhere since third trimester abortions only took place in ER surgery (where life of the mother was already at risk) or in a half dozen clinics where the practitioners only aborted on diagnosis of a late developing survivability problem for the fetus where giving birth itself created a big health problem.
The lying about abortion reality/circumstances - for purely political purposes - is a real problem now in t US. Though obviously not just aout abortion but about everything that exists.
"And in actual practice, did not exist anywhere"
Simply untrue. Kermit Gosnell is but one example of abortionists violating law and performing late term abortions.
So actual 'actual practice' indicates otherwise.
Doctor, "OMG!! All our healthcare can't save this ?baby?."
[WE] the people of the State, "Quick.. Go get those Gov-Guns and find a Woman and bring her here as a "baby" incubator to "save" this ?baby?".
That is Slavery 101....
But hey; Nobody here cares anymore... After all; The State wielding war powers to force the people into slavery has been going on quite a bit this year... And with "the people's" (every passion) worshiping of the almighty Gov-Guns I don't figure it'll do anything but keep GROWING!!!!!!!!!!
MORE, MORE, MORE Gov-Gun Power!!!!!!!!!!!
You might want to seek help. You're making progressively less sense with every post.
Yes, that is the objective of fascists like you. Thanks for admitting it.
Hey, fucktard, the Artificial Womb is a thing. Pretty soon it will be available for human usage.
Yes, the power to prevent infanticide.
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If Roberts ever decides he wants to declare himself a woman named Roberta, he won't have a problem; obviously he was born without a set of balls.
There probably exist some genetics associated with a child being LGBTQ-in fact, Scientific American had a whole issue on this back in the 1990s before genomic testing was even available, but I haven’t heard much about it since then. The question though is if parents can find out that their child is likely to be LGBTQ+ and some of them then want to have an abortion, would progs support that right?
Roberts is the worst justice....on a court that includes Sotamayor.
That's saying something.
>>"a simple yet fundamental principle of judicial restraint"
fabricated construct for men without the balls to do the job they were nominated and confirmed to do.
Let's be absolutely clear about something. The fucking Left in the US did this. They are the reason Roe & Casey just got overturned. If they hadn't been goddamn shit-flinging retards over the Mississippi law, this would never have become an issue for the SCOTUS to take up. These same assholes who often crow about "Reasonable Gun Restrictions" are simultaneously not in favor of reasonable restrictions on abortions. Most of Europe has the cut off at 16 weeks for elective abortions, but these chucklefucks were deadset on actual infanticide.
So, to all the salty Leftist fucks malding over this, BOO FUCKING HOO MOTHERFUCKERS! You also handed the Right ALL the rope they needed to hang your dumb asses when you went apeshit over SARS-CoV2 (can't say "My Body, My Choice" and then want people thrown in the fucking gulag for saying "NO!" to a "vaccine").
Sadly, as a member of "the fucking Left" (as you so nicely call us), I must admit you're correct... and it's not only on this, but other "ideological purity" issues. You have no idea how hard it is to argue for moderation and compromise, however, with people who see compromise as a total defeat.
You are wrong, however, about SARS-CoV2, however. That issue was no more "politicized by the left" than Anthropogenic Global Warming was "politicized by the left". Both Covid and AGW became "political" issues when the right decided that tribal ideology was more compelling than scientific evidence. I'm not criticizing. After all, tribal epistemology is essentially hard-wired into our brains. This puts people who insiste on allowing ideology to dictate their beliefs into the awkward situation of having to deny reality to support their position.
Meanwhile, the planet just keeps on warming, no matter what we believe about what's causing it. (The natural universe seems to follow its own rules.) And Covid keeps on killing the unvaxxed, at rates that are absurdly and tragically higher than the vaxxed. The latest analysis I did of Covid mortality on a state level:
https://twitter.com/JRL_Geo/status/1538198593600901121?s=20&t=RFW1gQIvgKDHdJk6l8dZfQ
The fact of the matter is that facts REALLY DON'T care about your feelings.
Roberts judicial temperament to minimize the scope of SCOTUS opinions means that he will likely not be the author of the majority opinion on substantive people vs. state power now that there is a solid 5 textualist majority.
This article makes brief mention that the Governor's office in Pennsylvania is held by a Democrat, while both houses in the legislature are controlled by Republicans. It's my recollection that there were three states in 2018 where the majority of votes were cast for Democrats, while the two state houses ended up controlled by Republicans, the other two being North Carolina and Wisconsin.
There's no mystery about this, of course. This is the product of Republican partisan gerrymandering. We have a gerrymandering problem here in Texas as well, but in our case it's that Democrats are substantially under-represented in government, both in the state houses and in our Congressional delegation.
I'm by no means suggesting that the fraught issue of reproductive freedom vs. forced birth ought to be settled by plebiscite. There are issues related to fundamental human rights that ought to be respected whether they represent the will of the majority or not. (Cynics claim our own Bill of Rights would be voted down if put to a popular vote. That might be a bit harsh, but you get the point.)
On the other hand, a principle of a representative democracy is that it should provide a proxy representation of the population at large. This cannot happen in the current environment of inter-party warfare where rampant voter disenfranchisement is considered "fair play" (a view already sanctioned by the SCOTUS in their equally disastrous Shelby decision).
I concur with Justice Roberts' views regarding the "non-necessity" of overturning Roe at this time. In my view the outcome is raw partisan hegemony. In consequence, there are fixin' to be millions of women in America whose autonomy is, or soon will be, substantially curtailed by state governments, and SCOTUS apparently has nothing to say about it other than, "State's rights forever. Hurrah, Boys, Hurrah".
And the issue has barely been mentioned that that the question of the "personhood" of a fertilized egg falls squarely in the domain of faith (or at least of values), rather than objective fact. I'm not saying it's incorrect,... Because... It's a matter of faith and values. Who am I to say? I just worry about the prospect of our erstwhile democracy falling under the heavy hand of religious zealotry. Who will represent the interests of "the people"?
There's no mystery about this, of course. This is the product of Republican partisan gerrymandering.
It isn't just gerrymandering. It is also the rural vs. urban partisan divide. Democratic Party voters are concentrated in cities across the country, and rural areas have Republican majorities. Even districts drawn compactly without deliberate partisan gerrymandering are likely to over-represent Republicans, just not by as much.
The partisan divide we see now is the result of a deliberate effort by the GOP going back to Nixon's "Southern Strategy" of trying to appeal to (mostly white) social conservatives. Evangelical Jimmy Carter blunted that trend briefly, but "Reagan Democrats" showed the GOP just how successful that strategy would be, and every election cycle that followed reinforced that trend.
The GOP has made the culture wars the central principle of their party. Other aspects of conservative ideology and policy preferences just don't resonate to nearly the same extent. (See the "Keep your government hands off my Medicare" meme for the ideological contradictions in Republican voters demands on other issues.)
Thanks for your Reply. Your comment about the concentration of Democratic voters in the cities and Republican voters in the rural areas is actually not relevant to non-representative composition of the voting districts. The state guidelines in Texas, for example, require that districts be more-or-less equal in population, irrespective of area. (I believe the requirement is that each district's population be within 10% of the statewide average.) Thus areas of Texas with higher population density--Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, Austin--have a larger number of geographically smaller voting districts. The inequity in the party representation entirely a product of partisan gerrymandering. The typical approach is twofold: 1) Packing (concentrating Democratic voters into as few districts as possible, having large Democratic majorities, and 2) "Cracking" to split up the urban areas into "pie shaped wedges" that extend outward from the city centers into the surrounding countryside far enough to pick up a plurality of Republican voters.
One of the great ironies of the Republicans' political narrative is that "Democrats can only win by cheating." This belief long preceded Trump's "Big Lie"... and one reason the Big Lie gained such broad traction is that is was coherent with the Republican narrative that Democrats are corrupt. The irony, of course, is that it's the Republicans who are cheating... and not just with gerrymandered districts, but with voter registration/voter ID/polling place hours & access, etc.... whatever it takes.
One of the "rules" of tribal allegiance is that "my side" is always the ones who are good and ethical. This would no doubt make it more difficult for me to see when MY SIDE is actually cheating.... but since we never cheat it's not a problem I ever have to deal with. 😉
The resulting voting district boundaries are absurdly contorted.... forget about being "compact" in shape or whether they break up "communities of interest". Those ideals have absolutely no relevance. The ONLY goal is to win as many Republican seats as possible, given the number of Republican votes available. (Here is another advantage the Republicans have... They vote more reliably.)
Florida, for example, has a 15-week ban that may ultimately be upheld by a state supreme court that will soon have a Republican-appointed majority.
This is a misstatement of the situation on the Florida Supreme Court. All seven of the current members of that court were appointed by Republicans. What would happen when DeSantis appoints another Justice is that he would have appointed four of the seven justices himself, with the remaining three having been appointed by Rick Scott. Note that Republicans have controlled both the legislature and the governors office for over 20 years in Florida. (The last 3 governor races were all decided by around 1% or less, but Rick Scott and DeSantis squeaked in each time.)
Not sure a 2014 poll on this subject in Florida is relevant anymore. I think there is probably a big chunk in the middle of the electorate that was nominally supportive of abortion rights, but after all the Democrats bashing the governor and their state for the past couple of years, the ones who don't really have a personal or family horse in the race are probably just saying screw it. Less abortion in Florida means less Democrats will live here.
You’re still a better commenter than Tony.
“ Since its own conception, the science of embryology has recognized that the union of sperm and egg gives rise to a new human being who then embarks upon an unbroken continuum of development until natural death.“
Educate yourself on the science of human life and the history of disinformation that you have swallowed hook line and sinker.
http://www.hli.org/resources/the-conception-conundrum/
Isn’t the purpose of all medicine essentially pro life?
Why else would physicians take the Hippocratic oath to this day since 275 ad?
An excerpt “I will do no harm or injustice to them.[6] Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. ”
"the union of sperm and egg gives rise to a new human being who then embarks upon an unbroken continuum of development until natural death.“
Except in the majority of cases that doesn't happen. Plenty can go awry between the time that Woody Allen arrives at the egg cell and the birth of a baby.
Fuck off and die, Nazi scum.
No, the purpose of medicine is to provide care in a way that maximizes profits and limits liability and not pro life. Where those purposes coincide with extending and/or improving quality of life, then sure there is the appearance of that which you speak. Where those purposes diverge, I assure you the former wins.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing while expecting a different result.
How’s that working for you, fuckwit?
most likely? Cope, seeth, wipe down all the spittle off his keyboard
Rinse and repeat
Fuck off and die, Nazi shit.
You’re hated here because of your anti semitic, Holocaust denier, pro Nazi bullshit.
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ridiculed is preferred.
Probably end up voting for National Socialism (Nazism) of the left instead of Religious Puritan Dictation....
And that's the biggest curse of the Puritan (Pro-Life) Republican Party; their complete hypocritical side defeats their own winning base...
Why it's just like Germany all over again; Vote for...
1) Communism
2) Socialism
That nation didn't have a prayer...
It's important that the LIMITED government party be consistent at supporting a LIMITED government. It's what the USA was founded on.