Alito's Leaked Abortion Opinion Misunderstands Unenumerated Rights
The Supreme Court justice is wrong when he says abortion rights aren't deeply rooted in American history.

A leaked draft of a majority opinion published in May indicated that the Supreme Court would soon overturn two key precedents securing a woman's constitutional right to terminate a pregnancy. Justice Samuel Alito's draft opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization says Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision that first established a right to abortion, was "egregiously wrong from the start." He adds that Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the 1992 decision that reaffirmed Roe's "central holding," had "perpetuated its errors."
Noting that "the Constitution makes no reference to abortion," Alito argues that "no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision, including the one on which the defenders of Roe and Casey now chiefly rely—the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment." Although "that provision has been held to guarantee some rights that are not mentioned in the Constitution," he says, "any such right must be 'deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition' and 'implicit in the concept of ordered liberty.'" Alito concludes that "the right to an abortion does not fall within this category."
That analysis falls short in at least two crucial ways.
First, Alito fails to grapple with the argument that the right to terminate a pregnancy can be understood as a subset of the right to bodily integrity. As the legal scholar Sheldon Gelman detailed in a 1994 Minnesota Law Review article, the right to bodily integrity can be traced back to the Magna Carta. That makes it one of the many rights "retained by the people" (in the words of the Ninth Amendment) that were imported into the Constitution from English law. That right, in other words, is "deeply rooted" in American history and tradition.
Second, Alito's draft opinion distorts the relevant legal history and thus misstates the historical pedigree of abortion rights. "When the United States was founded and for many subsequent decades, Americans relied on the English common law," explains an amicus brief that the American Historical Association and the Organization of American Historians filed in Dobbs. "The common law did not regulate abortion in early pregnancy. Indeed, the common law did not even recognize abortion as occurring at that stage. That is because the common law did not legally acknowledge a fetus as existing separately from a pregnant woman until the woman felt fetal movement, called 'quickening,' which could occur as late as the 25th week of pregnancy."
A survey of founding-era legal authorities confirms this view. William Blackstone's widely read Commentaries on the Laws of England, first published in 1765, noted that life "begins in contemplation of law as soon as an infant is able to stir in the mother's womb." Under the common law, Blackstone explained, legal penalties for abortion applied only "if a woman is quick with child, and by a potion, or otherwise, killeth it in her womb." That means abortion was legal in the early stages of pregnancy under the common law.
Blackstone's writings had an important influence on America's founding generation. In his 1790 Of the Natural Rights of Individuals, for example, James Wilson, a driving force at the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia and a leading voice for ratification at Pennsylvania's convention, repeated Blackstone's gloss. "In the contemplation of law," Wilson wrote, "life begins when the infant is first able to stir in the womb."
At the time of the founding, no American state had the lawful power to prohibit abortion before quickening because the states adhered to the common law as described by Blackstone and Wilson. We might call this the original understanding of the states' regulatory powers. That original understanding contradicts Alito's assertion that abortion rights—at least during the early stages of pregnancy—lack deep roots in American history.
This article originally appeared in print under the headline "Unenumerated Rights and Roe v. Wade ."
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Going back to "quickening" is a radically more pro-life position than the current Roe/Casey regime we operate under and is no defense of it. Not to mention our improved scientific understanding of the mechanics of pregnancy would tend to move the prohibition closer to conception, not to birth.. Roe was judicial usurpation of state authority to federalize a state issue. Where is the preference for local control? Root's argument here is grasping at straws, poorly.
The Supreme Court upholds the CONSTITUTION (Works for "The People" ***against*** the powers of the federal government) it doesn't work for federal legislation (although sometimes one would think it does)...
Your which Government level gets authority is about as polluted as it gets. Ya know; there is such a thing as people ( INDIVIDUALS ) getting authority over some things ( as this nation was founded on Individual Liberty and Justice ) and I can't think of a better place to have INDIVIDUAL authority than their own F'En body.
That common law outlaws abortion after quickening does more to prove there never was an inherent unfettered, unenumerated right to abortion that the Constitution protects. It is recognized that Roe was poorly reasoned legislation from the bench. It doesvnot deserve to stand.
"Roe was poorly reasoned legislation from the bench"
You're still not getting it.... Roe v Wade is NOT legislation. It's a stated PERSONAL LIBERTY granting that the 'authority' remains with the PERSON until viability....
Specifically it keeps State Gov-Guns out of people's PERSONAL lives until viability.
Ate you still confused about the fact abortion involves 1 individuals and not one? It seems youre still confused about that.
2 individuals*
Only in your imagination....
As stated below... If you don't support fetal ejection (2-Individuals) ur supporting forced reproduction... It's as simple as that.
Reproduction has already occurred. If anything this mandated child care, like what a parent is legally obligated to do after the child is born.
All legal obligation is dismissed by adoption or given to the State.
I.e. There is no FORCED "legal" obligation; for such a thing would be rightfully considered Slavery...
Slavery "for the children"??? Man, that excuse is so over-used.
And just as soon as you accept Fetal Ejection you can give that Fetal interest to the State.
The woman’s bodily integrity does not apply to the unique person within her, that she put there.
We founders used the best technology available to detect early pregnancy as do we.
The founders
No need; Support fetal ejection (we have the technology) and find out....
Fetal ejection prior to external viability being no different than dropping your newborn into a dumpster a couple days before calling CPS to come pick it up.
lol... Only in your prejudices is it "no different"....
It's entirely different and you know it.
How so?
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Going back to "quickening" is a radically more pro-life position than the current Roe/Casey regime we operate under and is no defense of it.
Really? Seems like the same basic idea as "viability" to me - when there is undeniable empirical evidence that the fetus is a human life separate from the mother, that is when abortion should be restricted and/or banned.
"when there is undeniable empirical evidence that the fetus is a human life separate from the mother, "
Guess you failed biology and sex ed in high school.
It is settled science that the fetus (from the moment of conception) is a human life separate from (but dependent on) the mother. An unfertilized egg which passes with a woman's period is part of the woman a fetus is not.
Take the "undeniable empirical evidence" for a run and support fetal ejection.... Oh whoops; guess that "undeniable empirical evidence" runs a foul of reality.....
It never ceases to amaze me how Pro-Life doesn't recognize the exact same B.S. they are spouting is the same as the left and their excuses for MORE, MORE, MORE Gov-Gun forces on the people....
But, but, but, "the children"
But, but, but, "the science"
...................................etc,etc,etc....
Bad weed?
Science that a 4th grader could understand proves fetal ejection does not prove, or disprove the presence of life OR death. In a Court of law, they would simply follow the science and it would be ruled irrelevant and inadmissible.
My "science" is more important than "reality"..........
Yeah.... Where else have I heard that B.S. before.
Once upon a time; Science was the discovery of reality.
Guess what: Your average woman attempting to conceive will involuntarily abort the majority of fertilized zygotes which attempt to implant in her uterine wall. Pregnancy is a remarkably delicate process for the first few weeks and pregnancy can self-terminate for innumerable reasons not all of which have to do with the viability of the embryo.
Making abortion a crime from the moment of conception is going to create a legal hell for the most basic and elemental of human bodily functions and if applied indiscriminately will send more women trying to have babies to jail than women trying to get rid of them.
No it doesn't. Just like accidentally coughing and spreading a virus doesn't make you liable for murder.
Voluntary vs involuntary actions.
Or maybe you could just keep your opinions in your own life and STOP trying to dictate everyone else's by the force of Gov-Guns.
It is already a legal and medical hell. A 16 week pregnant Seattle woman currently in Malta (abortion not legal) currently has the medical choice of:
waiting for a miscarried fetus to eject or
wait for sepsis to develop so that the health risk to the woman is real.
She faces the legal hell of not being given medical permission to leave Malta because her medical condition isn't safe enough for travel.
^THIS... So called "good" intentions gone wrong..........
The writing couldn't be any bigger on the wall..
Good grief using a 'piece' of someone as an excuse to dictate them??? I don't even want to think about how far that could go in the pursuit of tyranny.
An eleven year old in Brazil just now had to run a gauntlet of officious meddlers before someone finally read them the letter of the law.
This story reeks of an engineered crisis on so many levels
"doctors have refused to certify Andrea as fit for travel."
Since when do airlines look that hard at anyone 16 weeks pregnant? That's barely noticeable. The only way they will know is if you let them know.
Meanwhile the "Hospital are refusing their request for termination because there is still a foetal heartbeat and the mother’s life is not deemed to be at imminent risk."
Well, if you are not at immediate risk then Malta is a short ferry ride to Sicily. Leave the hospital AMA and get on a boat to Italy. Once there she can easily get on a plane anywhere or simply seek care at an Italian hospital.
But hey, rather than taking the ferry. Which, all things considered, is probably the faster route to Italy (about 90 miles) than an airplane they instead go on the media circuit, with tons of personal photos.
Yeah, not buying the bullshit.
Is that how it was before?
It may turn out to be the way to get rid of the GOP the way voters got rid of the Federalists and aborted the Tea party. The LP was the third or fourth minor party to advance a platform to overturn Comstockism. After women realized that the 1980 LP platform no longer deemed them clothed in individual rights, all LP growth stopped until the pro-choice Johnson-Weld ticket hit the voting booths. By getting rid of antichoice GOP infiltrators we might get our party back.
What's the difference between an abortionist and a hit-and-run?
They provide the exact same service.
Your so called science doesn’t account for the magic of the birth canal.
Thanks to modern science; there's no need to rely on the birth canal to establish a separate life... One could just do a fetal ejection ( same as a medical induced ) birth or C-Section on request.
Problem/Debate solved just as simply as pushing a button.
re: "It is settled science that the fetus (from the moment of conception) is a human life separate from (but dependent on) the mother."
That is not and can never be "settled science" because that is a value judgement that can neither be proven nor disproven by the Scientific Method. Not only is it not settled, it's not science.
Science is not the soul source of truth. Morals and values (such as that one) must come from other sources.
"Really? Seems like the same basic idea as "viability" to me"
You misunderstand viability. "Viability" was a term of art to define the point when the baby could safely be removed from the mother, not when it was a distinct being.
Prior to the Quickening, the point of prevention happened when the baby could be felt moving by someone outside the womb (i.e. the doctor can feel the baby kick). But with the advancement of medical technology, it was understood that there was a differentiated life as early as the quickening, and the protection of the fetus was brought forward to that point.
In each case, as humanity discovered a differentiated being in the womb, the "common law" reaction was to protect it. No one in the 1900's ever thought a fetus at the quickening was "viable". And now we know that as soon as the egg is fertilized and growing in the womb, it is a distinct human life separate from the mother, which is why the line of protection has (logically) moved earlier.
Not even a "safely"..... Viability set by the Republican Supreme Court was ANY life with all the technology of the medical field at it's helm for survival.. As-in the chance of life pre-viable = ZERO, NODDA, NONE....
Roe v Wade was VERY VERY Pro-Life...
But people's thirst to use Gov-Guns to dictate 'those' people is never ending... No wonder the USA can't exist... Too many just LOVE those Gov-Guns... Roe v Wade gave a ton of Gov-Gun force in the VERY PERSONAL issue by granting State's Gov-Gun Force Post-viable yet Gov-Gun thirst just couldn't be satisfied... MORE, MORE, MORE Gov-Guns!!!!! /s
I mean good grief there is more PERSONAL autonomy granted to pulling the plug on a dying family member than there is on pulling the plug on unicorns.
The fetus is always a separate individual, connected through an umbilical for sustenance. The same way a 1 mont old is dependent on someone for sustenance. There is no difference in the need for either. But they remain individual from the mother. Genetic tests can be done at the time showing them to be separate entities. In fact they have genetic tests prior to birth showing it.
Youre rationalizing your leftist beliefs.
PROVE IT --- Support Fetal Ejection....
You're really stuck on this argument of Fetal Ejection. How about you explain why this is relevant?
Everyone want's to play with theories of mythical creatures and base their Gov-Gun dictation on a life that can't even be substantiated as being there.
Fetal ejection not only solves the contention of rights between a woman and her unicorn; it also answers the question on if there is even a live there to save.
End of the mythical creature debate.
You are confusing being alive with being a person that has rights.
A fetus at EVERY stage is made up of cells which consume nutrients and replicate. Therefore, it meets the definition of life. It's human genetically, and by the 8 week mark it actually looks like one and has distinct organs and a nervous system. It's not the SAME genetics as the mother, so it's not just part of her.
It may not have rights yet, but the most basic right of all is the right to not be killed, without which all other rights are meaningless. The potential mother already conceded some of her rights within the category of bodily autonomy when she took actions that could get her pregnant (barring rape) and should not have the ability to murder the little human growing inside of her once it IS a human being, unless it threatens her right to not be killed.
Omg... Every other part of my body does that too...
Perhaps you'd like to use my stomach to dictate what I can do with the rest of myself too... Perhaps my heart has it's own 'life' you'd like to "save" from my mouth eating butter??? How about my toes and my arms....
If it's NOT and cannot be an Individual ( the very definition of separate ) it's not a person. And if it's not a person yet; what your longs list of B.S. amounts to is self-justification to use Gov-Guns to DICTATE OTHER people/family-affairs to your satisfaction (tyranny) and specifically it's Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction of said woman (someone else's daughter, family member, wife)...
Don't you see how sickly arrogant and authoritarian that is... What business is a persons pregnancy of yours or the State's??? Yet you'll keep propping propaganda about "saving" your "unicorn" you found in someone else's wife....
No, your organs have the SAME genetics as you. They are part of you. You have authority.
A fetus does NOT have the same genetics as the mother. It's a separate body contained within her.
Basically, I had ALREADY dealt with your first two paragraphs of bullshit. I focused on the real issue, when it gains rights. Alive and being a person are NOT the same category, which was the point of my comment. You were using an inherently misleading terminology.
You seem to support a viability standard, but that is a moving target. Would you in fact support mandatory early induced labor in place of late term abortions? It seems like a possible compromise, with the issue that mid term abortions require them to actively kill a separate human entity instead of just leaving the status quo in place, and one that was instigated BY the mother who wants to change her mind and back out of the consequences of her choices after the fact (again, barring Rape).
Under common law, the state could (1) punish women for having an abortion after the quickening, and (2) punish abortion providers for providing abortions at any time after conception.
I suspect conservatives would be more than happy to go back to that state of affairs.
Humorously; The Constitution never gave the feds power to nationally ban post-viable abortion. They'd be very wise to go back to supporting the Roe v Wade ruling though; as they freak-en established it.
Really? Seems like the same basic idea as "viability" to me - when there is undeniable empirical evidence that the fetus is a human life separate from the mother, that is when abortion should be restricted and/or banned.
Can you provide me with that point or moment in the pregnancy?
Fetal Ejection can...
And there is your answer Inquisitive Squirrel.
Life began billions of years ago. Personhood, which is what the Constitution is framed around, is the real issue The Legal Supremacy has to deal with, honestly or otherwise. Sending armed men to bully girls is menacing individuals with death in order to make them unpersons.
The undeniable Constitutional law evidence is pro-individual-person, not pro-bacillus or spermatozoa. The Supremacy is empowered to lie again, as on conscription and the Volstead Act. Both lies brought large upsurges in communist party membership which had shrunk after McKinley was elected. The 19th Amendment will prevail, and past cowardice in the face of christianofascist social pressure has, like the child molesting planks of the 1980s, already cost the LP the support of non-superstitious women voters.
Ya but in 2022 common-sense gets in the way of that dear love for Gov-Guns... Heck if all women loved getting pregnant as much as they loved Gov-Guns of theft and dictation; there wouldn't be any demand at all for abortion...
If you don't support legal fetal ejection.....................
You support Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction............
It doesn't get much more obvious than that.
On the other hand, if support a right to abortion on demand, you reject the concept of inherent human rights and give the government the authority to decide which humans have the privileges of human "rights".
Solid point that Reason ignores incessantly.
Reason subscribers are now empowered to ignore mystical ani; bye-bye.
Ironically... Repealing Roe v Wade doesn't even get that part done as it already left post-viability powers to the State Gov-Guns.
Unless of course your mission is to "save" the pre-viable 'unicorns' in your head that you cannot produce. Even then ENSLAVING one life to "save" another isn't what this nation was founded upon.
"human rights" --- Like my toes human right over me that apparently is represented by [WE] mobs over me???? Because until you can substantiate an Individual (i.e. separate human) which you cannot until post-viable all ur doing is using 'unicorns' of imagination and using them to Overlord personal autonomy by Gov-Gun force.
This is killer argument only to an ignoramus.
A toe is an appendage, not an individual in itself. The developing child is an individual organism, not a part of the mother.
So support fetal ejection...
Ignorant arguments about 'unicorns' don't count.
You really failed badly in biology didnt you? Guessing in school in general. Do you think your toe is genetically different from you?
If it was transplanted it is....
Not that you'd have a point anyways.
If it was transplanted?! Dude, facepalm of the highest order.
Under the common law, Blackstone explained, legal penalties for abortion applied only "if a woman is quick with child, and by a potion, or otherwise, killeth it in her womb." That means abortion was legal in the early stages of pregnancy under the common law.
But this is where the argument fails, also, because a woman was not acknowledged as being pregnant until the quickening. The old standard was that, as soon as you acknowledge that the child has its own life, it is murder to end it. But we now know that it is definitively alive prior to the 20th week. They didn't acknowledge abortion that occurred pre-quickening because they didn't view those as viable pregnancies.
Essentially, the common law standard is that you could not abort a pregnancy pre quickening because we don't acknowledge that you're pregnant. So there's clearly not an established right to abort a pregnancy that isn't acknowledged.
Also, bodily integrity? I think the reason abortion got killed is because 2020 demonstrated that people don't recognize bodily integrity as a right. "My body, your vaccine," is the new chant. The solicitor general couldn't advance a bodily integrity argument in front of the Supreme Court because it became laughable in light of the idea of vaccine mandates.
the right to terminate a pregnancy can be understood as a subset of the right to bodily integrity. True if you still believe the Sun revolves around a flat earth; otherwise, today that statement is 100% false so anything based on it, even if 'true' is equally false and in this case, stupid.
Never-mind; You can't even support this so called-individual freedom from it's prison barely big enough for it to be in.... ( fetal ejection )...
If it is an Individual.....
by the 13th Amendment.
involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States
You argument LOSES either way you want to play it.
Pregnancy is not servitude.
And pregnancy is nearly always voluntary.
If you want an exception for the rare cases where it's not voluntary, I think you could get a majority in support of it.
"Pregnancy is not servitude" --- Hey lookie... UR absolutely right because 'servitude' to unicorns doesn't exist but in people's imagination...
Eating is voluntary too.. Bring out the Gov-Guns and FORCE me to eat... Bring out the Gov-Guns and FORCE me to take my pills. Bring out the Gov-Guns and FORCE me to not clip my nails...
UR love for Gov-Guns to dictate me is well stated and I have no doubt that "majority" [WE] mob rules!! is a popular concept.. It's popularity couldn't be any more on display in this nations wallowing in dis-pare of dictation and German's inheritance of Nazism. I'm just not sure killing the USA for Nazism is all it's cracked up to be by it's "majority" popularity. Probably why the founders didn't make simple "majority" rules the founding of this nation.
Mom broke the hanger off in your head when she tried to abort you?
Two false premises don't make a truth. Forcing women to bear he labor of reproduction is involuntary servitude, hence slavery, hence a violation of the 13th Amendment, and the 9th.
Two false statements do not make a truth. Forcing a woman into the labor or reproduction against her will is involuntary servitude, hence slavery. Nothing in the Bible says slavery is bad, and Christian-impersonators mobbing the comments are are clearly for it. But it still violates the 13th and 9th Amendments.
Child Support is involuntary servitude
A person has rights, and a non-person doesn't, so if the issue is framed only as a contest between the rights of a person and a non-person, the person wins.
Women, pregnant or otherwise, are individuals with rights. If nobody wants to mate with conservatives, they've got their superstitions to thank. Race Suicide was a 1910 dog whistle for dry law fanatics and compulsory eugenics laws. Today it is but another sad instance of racial collectivism--the sort that took over Germany--not having learned from World War 2.
Root seems to be arguing that states cannot pass legislation on anything that is already covered by common law. I'm no lawyer, but that strikes me as crazy.
"Seems" is how mystical equivocators lead up to inserting into someone else's mouth meanings they never uttered or implied. Violent nationalsocialists seek to obfuscate, threaten and coerce individual personhood, hence, individual rights.
Duels have a long history. Bring back dueling.
It's already here... What are cops going to do when pregnant woman refuses to follow YOUR puritan code in her personal life and refuses to be jailed?? She ends up in a duel with cops in which she will be shot and ironically pre-viable that 'unicorn' in your imagination will die too...
typically, your comments make some sense, but on abortion you are fucking retarded. smoke less crack...or more, but your current level of dosage is way the fuck off.
Oh perhaps; on abortion I don't toe the hypocritical right-wing line and remain true to LIMITED Government philosophy.
But he is 100 % correct here. If you ban abortion, you have to accept that women who value their individual liberty will be killed by cops together with their "precious" fetuses.
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/18/1099542962/abortion-ben-franklin-roe-wade-supreme-court-leak
"Deep cultural roots" here in the USA show that the Founding Fathers had a LOT more sense than certain fanatics do today!
Now if only you could apply that founding father sense (U.S. Constitution) to *all* of your political beliefs you wouldn't be such a ignoramus...
Nothing brings out the hypocritical nature of both parties like the abortion debate. It's the ONLY subject were leftards start wanting LIMITED government and the right-wing wants MORE government.
The Founding Fathers (and the common folks of the day) were also generally more open to more immigration, compared to their British Overlords, and compared to today's Republicans versus Democrats!
On immigration in general then, ignoring that most people then and now preferred certain nationalities of immigrants over other nationalities...
Founding Fathers = Democrats
Republicans = British OverLards
How about that them thar apples?!?!
(I will grant you in a heartbeat, Dems = over-regulation, socialism, etc., so they're not my fave kind of shit sandwich either).
https://www.cato.org/policy-report/januaryfebruary-2019/myths-facts-immigration-policy
https://www.cato.org/blog/crime-along-mexican-border-lower-rest-country
The Apples..............
Article I, Section 8, Clause 4 of the Constitution
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization
So immigration control is WELL stated in this nations foundation.
As far as that LEGAL authorities implications.
1. By a wide margin, the U.S. has more immigrants than any other country in the world.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/05/18/5-facts-about-the-u-s-rank-in-worldwide-migration/
The USA is #1 in the entire freak-en world on immigration...
At what point will you be satisfied on it's immigration policy? When the entire nation is dismissed as having any naturalization?
Foreigners might *like* the idea of being able to graze the USA grass; but just simply *liking* it doesn't mean they are inherently *entitled* to it.
...and frankly; the mentality that drives the feeling of *entitled-to* someone else's or some other group of people's belongings isn't the type of immigrant this nation needs more of.
How about PER CAPITA immigration though?
https://www.npr.org/2014/10/29/359963625/dozens-of-countries-take-in-more-immigrants-per-capita-than-the-u-s
Dozens Of Countries Take In More Immigrants Per Capita Than The U.S.
In 1980 it became clear the Dems wanted to bring back Stalin. Today is is just as clear the GOP and its Austrian Caucus fetus want to bring back Mussolini, Franco and Hitler.
This is the third article Root has pushed with this same argument. And he has never once responded to any criticism of it either in the comments (which I wouldn't expect) or many people who have actually read and posted responses on the internet.
"First, Alito fails to grapple with the argument that the right to terminate a pregnancy can be understood as a subset of the right to bodily integrity."
Alito doesn't "fail to grapple". He grapples with it directly. The question is not whether or not the woman has a right to bodily integrity (of course she does, no one denies it), but rather or not the unborn child has rights.
And notice the actual language of the Blackstone description:
""begins in contemplation of law as soon as an infant is able to stir in the mother's womb." Under the common law, Blackstone explained, legal penalties for abortion applied only "if a woman is quick with child, and by a potion, or otherwise, killeth it in her womb.""
The common law isn't discussing "Bodily autonomy" it is doing precisely what law is doing today- trying to identify the point at which the child is considered a life. Root's own quotes prove that this was the primary and sole question of law: when is there a child who must be protected?
The historical course of the law has been to re-set that line earlier and earlier as we have identified how early there is a differentiated living being in the womb.
It is a desperate argument that actually does more to disprove the Roe/Casey regime was defending a longtime socially recognized right.
...and just never-mind that thousands gave their life's for Individual Liberty... All life must be "saved" at the expense of liberty (tyranny)... /s
Sounds like a lefty belief to me....
...and just never-mind individual life cannot even be established by *reality* in this argument....
...and just never-mind, never-mind, never-mind, never-mind --- cause MY PERSONAL "beliefs" are farm more important than YOUR WIFE'S pregnancy... That's not your 'unicorn'! That is OUR [WE] 'unicorn'!
Or put directly into religious context....
Then Jesus told them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
I fail to see how the 'unborn' is 'Caesars' territory. Too many [WE] mobs seem to think they're Gods when they get authority of Gov-Guns... It's fine to keep Your God in YOUR life... It is a sin to stuff it into others like you yourself is a God of Judgement.
So protecting life is not Caesar's territory? Caesar shouldn't be preventing murder? Hmmm. I don't think you've thought this through as much as you think.
what "life"? The life of a Unicorn? Mythical creatures of imagination?
PROVE IT - Support Fetal Ejection.....
TJJ2000 relies entirely upon an article of blind faith largely contradicted by scientific fact to support its position
RU projecting?? Seems fetal ejection is a perfect *reality* litmus test to this so called "save a life" campaign as well as solving the enslave a "life" to "save" a life contention because no matter how much "blind faith" there is; some still can't fathom the *reality* that both life's are but the same unit physically until they are seperated.
"...and just never-mind individual life cannot even be established by *reality* in this argument...."
So in reality a fetus is not a life? Is that what your run on, stilted sentences are saying?
Exactly..... Pre-Viable pregnancy is not a life. It cannot be made into a life by any other means than MORE reproduction FORCED upon a *real* female life.
It's very very simple. The only thing polluting the argument is imaginary creatures of one's own imagination.
What is a pre-viable pregnancy? We can't even define what a woman is.
I had a leftist friend who once argued that he thinks the mother should be allowed to kill her baby up until its like 5 (this conversation may have been subject to the influence of various substances).
Oddly enough, I respect that pro abortion argument a lot more than most others I see put forth.
At least it's consistent.
Fetal Ejection isn't "killing" anything that was never there to begin with.
SQRLSY is that you?
The common law isn't discussing "Bodily autonomy" it is doing precisely what law is doing today- trying to identify the point at which the child is considered a life. Root's own quotes prove that this was the primary and sole question of law: when is there a child who must be protected?
Boom.
Frankly it doesn't even matter by the 13th Amendment. Even if a life exists; there is no authority for ENSLAVEMENT...
Support Fetal Ejection.
There doesn't seem to be any way for people to have productive discussion on abortion. It is simply too emotional.
Yes ^THIS;;; I.e. PERSONAL.... It is a PERSONAL matter that should remain that way surely at the very *least* until viability is established and even then fetal ejection should be allowed.
What do you mean by "productive"? There are simply two fundamentally irreconcilable views: either abortion is a right, or it is murder. There is no compromise between those two positions.
The resolution is to leave this to the states so that people can vote with their feet and surround themselves with others who share their views.
And to the vast majority of Americans, this isn't an emotional issue because it simply doesn't affect them: most men and women either are at a point in their lives where pregnancy is unlikely, or they use contraception, or they actively are trying to have children. The percentage of the population who has unprotected sex and uses abortion as birth control is quite small, and that group generally has other, more serious problems.
My wife's pregnancy/body isn't for sale to [WE] mobs of the State. Do we all get to take a [WE] vote on your sexual affairs???
IT'S PERSONAL.
However; Roe v Wade has ruled that Post-Viably it is.. I can deal with that but nothing MORE...
Well, then don't move to one of the 95% of countries/states in the world where abortion is restricted or illegal. Easy.
For most of my life, you heterosexuals did just that.
You'll be surprised about all the things you can deal with when you actually have to.
Existing countries being unlibertarian is not an argument for them to continue on this course.
Those views are highly reconcilable. You reconcile them by disposing of the ahistorical horseshit lies a few assholes made up to get morons to vote Republican.
"vote Republican"... Hahahahaha.... It's Democrats who base their parties platform on unlimited "democracy" Gov-Gun authority...
It's Republican's who recognize Constitutional LIMITS on Gov-Gun authority in their party not Democrats.
But leave it to leftards to be consistent at PROJECTING exactly what they believe onto anything but themselves.
A far bigger problem in the US is morons like you who vote for Democrats, which is really little more than a vote for totalitarians.
Of course, you have been indoctrinated so well that you are completely unaware of the racist, totalitarian, fascist-loving history of the Democratic party.
So... shoot some more doctors?
NARAL will be getting what I used to donate to the LP.
>>"deeply rooted" in American history and tradition.
procreation is deeply rooted in humankind. snuffing out life is counterintuitive.
Ah, but the way they've ruled on it in the past is that because procreation is deeply rooted in mankind, anything a judge can do about it, pro or con, is also deeply rooted.
"snuffing out life is counterintuitive".....
Bring a whole new meaning to Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction doesn't it? Heaven forbid anyone NOT have intercourse....
>>Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction
ask the ladies how their d&cs stay with them forever even after the clump of cells is in the trash. Poe-esque punishment works for me.
snuffing out life is counterintuitive.Hmmm... the human history of murders, wars, honor killings, abortions, infant exposure (leaving infants in the wilderness to die of exposure, dehydration, or predation), genocides, executions, sacrifice, and many other practices of "snuffing out [human] life" ... disputes your assertion.
Add the natural propensity to snuff out non-human life, including plant life, for our own edification and survival and...
Snuffing out life is simply human nature.
only to socio/psychopaths ... generally bugs the fuck out of anyone else
Oooh! Cool non-rebuttal bro!
Ignoring the fact that "snuffing out life" is essential to our survival (gotta kill either animals or plants, or both, to eat) and does not "generally [bug] the fuck out of anyone [not a socio/pyshicpath]"
I think you'll find that most people, even the ones that are not socio/psychopaths, are a-okay with "snuffing out [human] life" when you frame it in the right context for them. For instance, I bet you're fine with the piece of shit that shot up that school in Uvalde being sent to the morgue. I'll even wager a bet that you're disappointed that the police lollygagged for so long and didn't send him on his way sooner.
Good to know you assent to being executed
Nevermind, misread your comment.
Yes, homicide is not foreign to humanity.
The whole line of US Supreme Court decisions regarding reproduction and sexual activity strike me as completely arbitrary cultural judgments written in a way as to sort-of-but-not-really sound like law.
From the little I've seen of other countries' appeals court decisions over statute law, judges in other countries do this a lot on many subjects without making such a strong attempt to dress it up as law. Their constitutions have vague statements on human rights, and their judges just pick and choose and say that's the way things are because FYTW.
This describes many of the supreme court decisions in the 20th century. Abortion is far from the most egregious example of this. How about handing down a judgment that the interstate commerce clause applies to growing food on your own land for your own consumption?
In most other countries, supreme court decisions don't automatically become law; instead, if the supreme courts finds a particular law unconstitutional, the legislature is required to address the issue by actually legislating.
Or in a CONSTITUTIONAL Union of Republican States.
The Supreme Court upholds the Supreme Law (The very reason it's founded on Individual Liberty and Justice for all) over Gov-Gun packing legislators...
With all the NOT Limiting the powers of the Government the Supreme Court has already done (treasonous); I find it flooring that on this particular occasion when the Supreme Court did rightfully rule a LIMIT on government; The LIMITED government party is complaining about it.
roe v wade decision text:
Under the Constitution, making laws about abortion is not one of the delegated powers. Period.
In Roe v. Wade, SCOTUS fabricated new federal powers out of thin air. This expanded the power of the federal government, and did so unreasonably.
Limiting the power of state governments is the job of state constitutions.
"Limiting the power of state governments is the job of state constitutions.", not entirely true; but on abortion you have a point...
I'm pretty sure that's exactly we the USA had a civil war to free the slaves of the State's that didn't want to give up that slavery granted State authority...
Now we get to fight over State's that want to enslave pregnant females to their fertilized-egg (?unicorn?) plantation owners... Wow; what a winning thing to do... /s
Well, you are wrong.
Yeah, you're wrong there too, both in terms of describing the what pregnancy/abortion is about, and in the belief that most Americans give enough of a f*ck to fight over it.
Under common law, government did not punish a woman for having an abortion, but it already punished abortion providers for providing abortifacients. I suspect conservative law makers would be more than happy to go back to an absolute prohibition on abortion after the quickening and punishing abortion providers for abortions any time after conception. In any case, these are arguments to be made at the state level.
But making common law arguments seems pretty ridiculous at this point; common law contradicts much of federal and state legislation to begin with. But, hey, that's a good thing.
So, if this is the hill progressives want to die on, please go ahead. Just be aware that you don't get to invoke common law selectively: conservatives will apply these principles more broadly.
Conservatives will apply these principles more broadly, so as to enforce "property laws" concerning slavery and slave owners, for example. "Slavery" to include that women are the slaves of their hosted fartilized egg smells, under any and all conditions!
As if a fascist like you gives a f*ck about women or their freedom. Who do you think you're kidding?
So the folks who REALLY care about women, want them to be breeding slaves? Enslaved to Lying Lothario?
See "the Sociobiology of Abortion" sub-heading here... http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/
Frankly, I don't really give a f*ck what the abortion laws are where I live. I simply recognize that there are some states where people want legal abortion and other states where they don't, and that these two groups will never see eye to eye. So, this should be resolved at the state level. Right now, Democrats are simply using abortion and fear mongering as a propaganda tool for their failing administration.
FWIW, conservatives generally view women as wives, partners, and mothers, and as responsible adults who have the means to protect themselves from pregnancy and disease. That's a lot healthier than your view of women as helpless damsels who can find themselves with child for reasons completely beyond their control.
Women generally have the means to protect themselves from pregnancy. It is better for everyone if they also have the means to protect themselves from gestating to term and giving birth even if the pregnancy occurs despite all the precautions.
The second part of your statement needs a little more validation to be credible I think. You obviously take it as a given but I would think a vast swath of the population does not - in which case you should provide at least some reasoning for it...? (at least if you were trying to persuade and not just here to preach to the choir)
Why is it better for 'everyone'? No-one ever underwent hardship and felt they were the better for it afterwards? There are no net benefits to society at large from 'gestating to term and giving birth' of an otherwise unwanted pregnancy?
Also remember, a big reason this is even being argued is that there are many many people who think that the baby is part of the set of 'everyone' which would invalidate that second part and also causes much of the debate in the first place.
I think it is debatable even if you restate that sentence to say that it is better for everyone outside of the womb... but it would at least be more on point.
"That's a lot healthier than your view of women as helpless damsels who can find themselves with child for reasons completely beyond their control."
You ever hear of a thing called "rape"? Or "birth control failures"? Or "non-viable, wasted-effort pregnancies"? Or "deception"? Invent for us, an affordable and reliable brain scanner (to include a lie detector) to fend off "Lying Lothario", and I will have a LOT more sympathy for your arguments! PS, what if dad-to-be dies during the pregnancy, and mom-to-be is handicapped or otherwise ill-equipped to handle motherhood by herself? Nosenheimers and Buttinskies need to BUTT OUT!!!
"who have the means to protect themselves from pregnancy"
Humorously; Pro-Life is insisting one of those options be "banned".
And when other options 'fail' as they do sometimes "be responsible" isn't something that holds water. Sometimes sh*t just happens. What will be next? Banning cars because someone drove and got in an accident?
Dictating a person with a sh*tty medical situation on their hands via [WE] mobs vote in the State is not Liberty. It is EXACTLY "democratic" dictation. What exactly is the excuse for the [WE] mob to be harassing this person with a medical condition??? Why's it ANY OF THEIR F'EN BUSINESS!!!!!
It's PERSONAL.... Please explain to the world how my wife's pregnancy is YOUR precious unicorn?
http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/#_Toc105750001
Harriet Beecher Stowe had a lot to say about quadroon balls, octoons and so forth. Even in the milquetoast Uncle Tom's Cabin, the open secret was that slave women could and were sexually used at whim.
Conservatives in Positive Christian National Socialist Germany were really big on raising orphans as Hitlerjugend and madschen trainees. In actual combat these brainwashed cadres were remarkably effective against amateur soldiers fielded by democracies. Religious warmongers have since the time of the Greeks had great demand for ready supplies cannon fodder.
"Positive Christianity" was a fake organization, denounced by both the Catholic church and most protestants.
The Nazis were a radical left wing, anti-Christian, progressive party. They hated conservatives and conservatism.
First, Alito fails to grapple with the argument that the right to terminate a pregnancy can be understood as a subset of the right to bodily integrity.
The supreme court explicitly ruled that you DON'T have a right to bodily integrity. Or do we need this history lesson hammered home... again.
The ROE decision itself said that a woman's right to an abortion "was not unlimited".
Under the common law, Blackstone explained, legal penalties for abortion applied only "if a woman is quick with child, and by a potion, or otherwise, killeth it in her womb." That means abortion was legal in the early stages of pregnancy under the common law.
So let the states recognize English common law. What's the problem here? Or is it that we don't have a "remarkably stable consensus" on abortion?
"That means abortion was legal in the early stages of pregnancy under the common law."
No, it really did not mean that. What it meant is that the law cannot punish someone for something that cannot be proven to have happened.
First, Alito fails to grapple with the argument that the right to terminate a pregnancy can be understood as a subset of the right to bodily integrity.
There is NO "right to bodily integrity" recognized by SCOTUS or the Federal Government
1: See Covid "vaccine" mandates
2: See the FDA, and the whole concept of "prescription" drugs
3: See laws against suicide
This is a fundamentally stupid argument on your part, esp. to appear in "Reason". Or do you all no longer favor drug legalization?
Second, Alito's draft opinion distorts the relevant legal history and thus misstates the historical pedigree of abortion rights. "When the United States was founded and for many subsequent decades, Americans relied on the English common law," explains an amicus brief that the American Historical Association and the Organization of American Historians filed in Dobbs. "The common law did not regulate abortion in early pregnancy. Indeed, the common law did not even recognize abortion as occurring at that stage.
Why do you keep on pushing this lie? Is it because you know that your argument is complete and utter garbage, so lies are all you have?
Alito directly addresses that issue, and shows that all abortion was illegal.
I wrote up part of that section here:
https://gregquark.blogspot.com/2022/05/alito-on-how-blackstone-and-hale-show.html
tl;dr: If you gave a woman "with child" (not "with quick child", just "with child") an abortificant, and she died, you were guilty of murder.
Because the attempt to kill the child was unlawful, and therefore the killing of the woman, caused by your unlawful act, stopped being an accidental death, and instead became an unlawful killing.
The analogy that Blackstone (not Alito, Blackstone, writing in the 1700s) used was that if you try to poison person A, but it's person B who takes it and dies, the fact that you wanted to illegally kill A with malice aforethought makes the killing of B a murder with malice aforethought.
If abortion had been legal then, that argument would not have worked
The common law was silent regarding the application of leeches. Precedent!
Or super-leeches! Super-precedent!
Q: Name two historical sources for abortion recipes.
A: The Bible and The Farmer's Almanac
Jon Roland of Austin explained: People who come to the abortion issue from a religious standpoint have trouble accepting that "personhood" is a matter of convention. It is not something that is somehow defined by nature or scripture. It is defined by law and legal practice, and has to be, because it is only "persons" (legal roles) that can meaningfully be deemed to have legal rights, powers, and duties. Too many people try to confuse the issue by framing it in terms of "human life" or other such term, but that is not a proper legal term.
"Personhood" is a constitutional issue because the Constitution associates rights with "persons", as it would have to do. Not with "human life". For purpose of law, a "person" is a bundle of competences, including the competence to have interests and assert them as judicial questions in a court of law.
At the time the Constitution was ratified, the beginning of personhood was conventionally defined by birth, not conception, and the end by the cessation of signs of life, such as a heartbeat. That was done, in large part, because those were the ways that the bundle of competences could be ascertained, as a practical matter. Today medical science makes the points of beginning and ending less definite, but we are bound by the definition at the time of ratification of all legal terms in the Constitution, because if we allow subsequent opinions about meaning to be the basis for legal decisionmaking, there is no longer a "law" that can constrain government. To understand this problem, just consider that what the slave states were doing to maintain slavery was to redefine personhood to exclude blacks. They expressed it as a redefinition of "citizenship", ignoring that constitutional rights are attached to persons and not citizens, except for rights like the right to vote and hold public office. To change the definition of a constitutional term we have to formally amend the Constitution.
I agree: in order to grant personhood to the fetus, we need a constitutional amendment. But likewise, in order to have a constitutional right to an abortion, we also need a constitutional amendment.
Constitutionally, abortion is a matter for the states to legislate. Which is all that SCOTUS has said.
Why should abortion be constitutionally more of a matter for the states to legislate than the question whether you are allowed to masturbate, or whether you may use a tampon or a pad? Or are those also matters for the states to legislate?
....Post-Viably by Roe v Wade. Only the Gov-Gun toting Power-Mad wants to make changes to that in an area that is none of their F'En business to begin with - thus the "Power-Mad" mentality.
Here-is the problem. There will never be such a thing as Individual Liberty so long a [WE] mobs of dictation gets 'authority' over EVERYTHING with B.S. excuses. Party-Line dictation is NOT Individual liberty it is [WE] mob authority (unlimited democratic tyranny).
Saying you don't support "banning" abortion for EVERYONE doesn't mean you have to support abortion. It doesn't mean you will "vote" to pull out Gov-Guns on people and make them have abortions. It doesn't even mean you don't utterly despise those who have an abortion. All it means is you won't support pulling Gov-Guns and SHOOTING them just because they do something you might utterly despise and think is wrong to the ends of the earth....
People's utter LOVE of Gov-Guns will kill the USA - It's that simple. That is why the narrative the founders instilled in the Supreme Law was hard-to conquer LIMITS on those Gov-Guns. Gun dictation should be VERY VERY VERY VERY LIMITED to the most significant forms of ensuring Justice and Liberty. Shooting people isn't a joke..
I.e. Law is not just a general "good idea" it's bottom-line insistence is by GUNS and BULLETS and used as coercive threats to take property and imprison them (take from people or get shot).
Hey... Guess what Pro-Lifer's....
Guess who put human reproduction into Women??
God did...
He didn't put human reproduction into Men.
He didn't put human reproduction into a Stork that drops off "babies".
He didn't put human reproduction into Government's hands..
He put it into Women.... Solely and specifically...
To pretend Women don't have any authority God himself granted them is pretty arrogant don't you think....
I find it really disgusting when people who don't give a shit about God or Christianity pretend to make arguments rooted in Christianity.
Christianity has been clear about this from its earliest days: abortion at any time after conception is a sin. God didn't grant women the "authority" to abort the fetus, and as a practical matter, most women simply aren't capable of inducing an abortion on themselves.
Furthermore, anti-abortion laws outlaw nothing a woman does, they outlaw a medical procedure performed by medical professionals. You know, like lots of medical procedures on both men and women are illegal.
The Bible itself does not say that abortion at any time after conception is a sin, so, someone just pulled it out of their ass, NOT from what God or Jesus allegedly said. Also, most women are capable of miscarrying on purpose.
Newsflash: Murder is a sin. The Bible makes no distinction about where the murder takes place.
Sin is between a person and God. Crime is between a person and another. There are plenty of Christian countries out there for you to move to, as in, their constitutions invoke the bible. This is not one of them.
This is interesting, and I'd never heard of it before. Having been taught that women were oppressed everywhere and always until 1920, I kind of took it for granted that abortion was always banned at all times and places before the mid-1900s (despite being aware that at many times and places women were relatively free, could own property and everything. Nobody could vote of course).
Myself, I hate abortion almost as much as I hate banning it, but had considered any federal legislation or case law to be an usurpation either way. However, the author's point does raise a valid 9th Amendment concern that I'd never thought about before.
Has anyone sifted through the opinions to see whether this was addressed at all?
Sorry but this analysis is just wrong. Yes, the 9th Amendment does say that "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." But the 10th Amendment says that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."
All the Alito draft (and subsequent decision) said was the this is a matter for the States under their powers (which are different from the limited and enumerated powers of the federal government). An unenumerated right to "bodily integrity" may be protected from infringement by the feds under the 9th Amendment but it is still subject to the authority of the States' powers under the 10th.
Justice Alito clearly understands unenumerated rights. Abortion is not an inherent or god given right under the US Constitution. Even RBG thought Roe went too far. The hero justice of the left thought Roe was a garbage decision.
The question is not of “women’s rights”, but when does the fetus become a citizen? When does that life have rights? When does the mother’s right to choose infringe on the child’s rights?
The definition of those boundaries is the people’s decision and is the sovereign states right to determine as a member of a constitutional republic