New York City Sued Over Illegal Foie Gras Ban
Hudson Valley foie gras producers are not taking New York City's guff sitting down.

A lawsuit filed last month in a New York court seeks to prevent New York City's foie gras ban from taking effect this coming November, on Black Friday. The suit challenging the ban was filed by Hudson Valley Foie Gras (HVFG) and La Belle Farm, which together "produce virtually all of the foie gras" that's made in America. The plaintiffs seek to enjoin New York City from implementing the ban while they mount a broader legal challenge to overturn the ban entirely.
Foie gras, as I've explained many times, is the French term for fatty duck or goose liver. Farmers fatten the birds' livers through a time-honored feeding process known as gavage, which capitalizes on these birds' natural instinct to gorge themselves before migrating. Chefs, in turn, create some amazing dishes using foie gras as a main ingredient.
Animal-rights groups, a driving force behind New York's ban, claim the process of producing foie gras is cruel. The farmers who produce foie gras, the chefs who cook with it, and the diners who enjoy it disagree.
Before the New York City Council chose sides and voted on the ban, HVFG invited council members and their staff to tour the farm and see how they produce foie gras. None came.
A lawsuit challenging the ban has been widely anticipated and welcomed, as I explained shortly after the city council implemented the ban.
"We will fight," Ariane Daguin of leading foie gras seller D'Artagnan, based in New Jersey, told me in 2019.
Reached this week, Daguin welcomed that fight.
"Foie gras is a legal and wholesome agricultural product," Daguin told me by email. "It happens to also be extremely delicious. A city council who refused to visit the farms has no business trying to ban it."
In the suit, the plaintiffs contend that the city's ban conflicts with various federal and state laws that allow foie gras to be produced and sold. The state-based claims, which the plaintiffs detail in the lawsuit, rest on both the state constitution and a state agricultural law that protects farms in the state "against unreasonable regulations."
New York State has already tentatively weighed in on the ban. As the plaintiffs also note in the suit, the state's Department of Agriculture and Markets informed New York City two years ago that its foie gras ban "directly and unreasonably restricts Plaintiffs' farming operations in violation of" state law.
Beyond its solid legal claims, the lawsuit also explains the widespread economic damage the city's foie gras ban would cause, impacting everyone from the plaintiffs' farms and their employees to restaurateurs, chefs, and their staffs.
In the suit, they argue the ban "will inflict significant financial losses" on each party and on "the rural community in Sullivan County where they are major employers." Combined, the plaintiffs say the ban would force them to lay off at least 100 employees. La Belle says the ban may force it to close entirely.
Other opponents of the ban have also warned about the dramatic impact a ban would have on both rural farming communities in the Hudson Valley and on top-flight restaurants in New York City.
"The fallout of the city's foie gras ban shines a light on the tenuous relationship between rural regions and the metropolitan areas where agricultural products are sold," the Albany Times Union reported last year. "The ripple effect of losing two duck farms in Sullivan County could be economically disastrous not just to the nearly 400 workers they employ, but to the local community that relies on the farms as an economic driver for the area."
But it's not just the ban's illegal requirements and crushing economic costs that worry farmers, chefs, and diners throughout New York State. It's also the prospect of falling prey to yet another law that erodes food freedom. While the New York City ban, known as Local Law 202, targets only foie gras, many worry that if the court were to uphold the ban, it could open the door for local governments throughout New York State to ban any number of foods.
"Nobody wants their local government passing laws on what they're allowed to have for dinner," wrote Ed Phillips, the attorney for the foie gras producers, in an email to me this week.
"The statewide implications of upholding Local Law 202 should be extremely troubling for farmers and consumers alike," Phillips says. "If upheld, municipalities might adopt similar sales bans aimed at other farming practices deemed objectionable by some, such as banning the sale of eggs produced by caged chickens, or the sale of beef produced by corn-fed cattle. Imagine a local law banning the sale of any 'slaughtered' meat products, which would force most everyone to become a vegetarian. That can't be ok."
It is far from ok.
I made a very similar foot-in-the-door argument to the U.S. Supreme Court four years ago in an amicus brief in a case that asked the Court to overturn California's terrible foie gras ban. Last month, a federal appeals court upheld a 2020 ruling that confirmed California's foie gras ban prohibits restaurants from cooking and selling foie gras for now but does not prohibit people in the state from having foie gras they buy delivered to residences so they may cook it at home.
As the lawsuit challenging New York City's ban proceeds, chefs in New York, who've opposed the ban vocally, are proceeding as if the court will grant an injunction, and the ban ultimately be overturned.
"We're working on a new menu and we're planning to have foie gras on the menu, as we always have," Marco Moreira, executive chef and owner of Tocqueville, in Union Square, told the New York Post last week. "We're not slowing down any time soon for sure."
New York City Council members who voted in favor of the ridiculous foie gras ban and the animal-rights groups that supported it no doubt had hoped otherwise.
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"If upheld, municipalities might adopt similar sales bans aimed at other farming practices deemed objectionable by some, such as banning the sale of eggs produced by caged chickens, or the sale of beef produced by corn-fed cattle. Imagine a local law banning the sale of any 'slaughtered' meat products, which would force most everyone to become a vegetarian. That can't be ok."
They could also ban liver pudding, which is Southern porcine foie gras. Or liver mush, which is Southern porcine foie gras mixed with corn meal as an extender.
Fu toi, New York City for your stupid foie gras ban!
What's the problem really?
If you're a NYCer and can afford foie gras, I'm pretty sure you can afford to go to some other muni to indulge in foie gras.
If you're not a NYCer, what they do and how they govern themselves ain't your business really.
Yes just because one is a veggie vegan
does not mean one cannot be also a scmuck.
Nobody needs 27 kinds of animal parts.
Not true. Pretty much all of any slaughtered animal is used.
pretty sure mcnuggets are where the beaks and claws go
I assumed those were made from used paper towels. The taste and texture of those things has never seemed like meat to me or even that it's food.
What have you got against Scottish food?
Before the New York City Council chose sides and voted on the ban, HVFG invited council members and their staff to tour the farm and see how they produce foie gras. None came.
"We *know* how it's produced! Why should we view such a disgusting and cruel process?!"
Plus, farms are smelly.
I don't see how you could watch someone force feed a goose and not come.
Fucking weirdos in NYC.
What Bismarck said about sausage factories goes double for food ordinance votes at City Council meetings.
If Vegans get any cornier they'll end up being devoured by Canadian geese.
Pass the duck fat french fries and ortolan pate'.
Near Bozeman I watched calves being tortured by holding them in stocks and suspended by ropes to keep them from moving. This execrable practice assured the veal would be pale and tender. Barbaric. I quit eating veal after that. And that was in the 80's.
Gavage is another barbaric practice force-feeding geese and ducks to be overfed by ramming feeding tubes down their throats, their livers to become inflamed and fatty, and to suffer liver disease so that a New Yorker without a conscience can indulge his gluttony on foie gras. So the goose must be confined in a cage and suffer horribly for weeks before its death. Gavage is sadistic torture, guaranteed, and ought to be banned worldwide.
I invented a teleprtation machine in bozman. It worked great, however you have to be careful. On a test run my dog got merged with a fly and had to be put down.*
Today's theme is things that never happened
Wouldn't it be simpler to just say that you don't like his perspective rather than trying to discredit him with the absurd argument that what he is saying isn't true? I live in Connecticut and there are still plenty of farms in the upstate area, I have seen veal boxes, and agree that it is horribly cruel.
I suspect both you and "Shamie" are exercising a rhetorical technique that is popularly called "lying".
The calves were being treated like they were vegetables. It was hard for me to believe what I was seeing, the horror, the cruelty. The sound of those calves pitifully bawling still haunts me. The grim cruelty was such an abomination it made me nauseous to see it. When I got back to the South from whence I had traveled to Montana, I did some research and found that this horrid torture of helpless baby animals was common all over the USA.
A psychopath such as yourself would feel nothing negative about this barbarity at all, nothing negative or squeamish about the heinous practice of gavage either. You're a waste of oxygen.
Particularly when in reality a lot of geese actually come running when it's time to be force-fed.
Shamie, we welcome the opportunity to review all your life choices,
food preferences, entertainment likes, clothing styles, education opportunities, recreational modes, sexual practices, and everything else in your life so that we, too, can tell you all about your mistaken values and ban you from participating or indulging in things we believe are unwise, unhealthy, or just too weird for normal people.
Yes, and if the criteria for worldwide bans is anything that induces sadistic torture, we already have a long list.
Socialism is especially barbaric and inhuman. If we're going to ban something, that one should be at the top of humanity's list.
I don't know if gavage ought to be banned worldwide, but you do raise a good point about how libertarians ought to view the moral status of animals. They are clearly not mere property like an inanimate object, but they also don't (or shouldn't?) be regarded with possessing the full panoply of rights that human beings have.
Even in a libertarian context I do think it makes sense to have some limited rules on acceptable treatment of animals. No torture, requirements for proper care, don't let the animals suffer, things like that. What ought to go in the rules is debatable, but I do think there should be some set of rules.
i figure the limit is being treated worse than they would live in the wild. You do know they die from being eaten alive by predators, or starving to death because they've broken a leg or sustained other injuries which prevent them from feeding, right?
Well, I would hope that humans should be held to a higher standard than wild beasts.
What standard is that, *yours*?
Well, yes. I would imagine that it would also be that of a broader humanist standard.
I mean, I'm not going to pretend that a choice to torture animals, vs. a choice not to torture animals, are equally valid choices. Are you?
But you believe abortion should be legal at least up to the moment of birth.
No, I don't. I'm in favor of restricting abortion once there is virtually zero ambiguity about the personhood of the unborn child.
When is that?
I don't have a precise number but it is obvious the state of the fetus is very different at the beginning vs at the end of the pregnancy.
Jeff, you have to make the final leap and accept that there is a spectrum of 'this is alive' which runs from conception until several years - say, 18, or 21 - after birth. In extreme cases, like Trump's, where the birth was obviously a mistake, post-natal abortion can be justified even into the later decades of life.
Exactly. And when a prey animal is being eaten alive, it goes into shock and loses its ability to feel pain. Mother Nature is indifferent and cruel at times. That means we humans must rise above indifference and cruelty.
Force-feeding a duck or a goose to afflict it with liver disease is beyond the pale of humanity. Geese are beautiful animals and mate for life. How could anyone with the slightest of a conscience torture these beautiful animals merely for the pleasure of his greasy palate?
"They are clearly not mere property like an inanimate object"
Now do an eight-month-old human fetus.
I completely agree that an eight-month-old fetus is not mere property, like an inanimate object, either.
So you do not support a woman's right to choose?
Not unlimited at any time in the pregnancy, no.
People veal?
We put that in a movie!
Gimme Skelter
😀
I believe that restaurants should be allowed to serve grilled eight month fetuses (fetii?). And no government should be allowed to impinge on the culinary freedom to serve those. For example - smoked fetus may also be quite delicious.
Gosh, yes, anonymous lizard, and like Hannibal Lecter, you devour and slobber over this culinary delicacy with fava beans and a nice Chianti.
…. don't (or shouldn't?) be regarded with possessing the full panoply of rights that human beings have.
Of course not, they are only clumps of cells.
Humans are clumps of cells from conception to death. They just get more complicated up until adulthood.
They are clearly not mere property like an inanimate object, but they also don't (or shouldn't?) be regarded with possessing the full panoply of rights that human beings have.
"Purple is clearly not red, but it also shouldn't be regarded with the possessing the full panopoly of rights as a red man."
My roomba isn't an inanimate object, was it imbued by its creator with natural rights too?
I think 'rules' re that should only be at the local/muni or state level. But regardless of whether even that is seen as a bridge too far from Scotland, I do think it is an important issue for political parties to discuss at all levels. Because the 'animals' issue is a way to think about natural rights, property, land/resources, unconsciously embedded religion, and intergenerational stuff.
You are flat wrong. You lie. I have seen videos of geese in the process, and they come running, push and shove each other, because they want the extra food. They gobble it down eagerly. They are not force fed.
https://www.seriouseats.com/the-physiology-of-foie-why-foie-gras-is-not-u
They aren't overfed they do it naturally before migrating. Calves however don't naturally hang in ropes.
No they don't 'naturally' force-feed. If it was something they did naturally, then force would not be required would it.
I agree that the production of both of those (veal and foie gras) are barbaric. And the result is delicious. In my case I quite deliberately avoid those most of the time but periodically indulge.
I do think that 'cruelty' is absolutely a legitimate issue of self-governance. The legitimate question is at what level. You seem to believe this particular example 'should' be addressed at a global level. Which would obviously also assume that a federal level ban would also be ok.
I think this sort of discussion/action should be at a local/muni level. The producer's lawyer is positioning their argument as if there is no level of government where that can be discussed - but in truth he's really arguing that it should only be the state level (if foie gras production is legal in the state then all muni laws/regulations re consumption are invalid.)
Dr. Oz will face Democrat John Fetterman for PA's US Senate seat,
after McCormick conceded.
https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/mccormick-drops-out-of-race-for-gop-u-s-senate-oz-to-face-fetterman/
Don't like Oz, but that was some bs McCormick pulled in trying to get ineligible votes counted. That whole race was dumb and can only produce a shitty legislator
"Don't eat geese, eat bugs."
The 21st century is not turning out how I thought it would.
Yep, no flying cars or Mars colonies. But retro pre-human diets and witch doctor medicine.
I've been eating crickets and worms with my tequila and mezcal for years. And now everyone's coming after and trying to tell me it's good for me.
I don't understand why they can't just let me be a drunk who eats crushed up bugs with his booze. Why do they have to try to make me feel like I'm doing something good for the world?
You're supposed to eat the worm whole. At least I always did. At least before when even the smell of Mezcal didn't make me nauseous.
Eat geese and bugs.
Fundamental Muslims seem to have mastered the proper manner of how to negotiate regarding such issues with the Left fascist community.
A couple of questions to ponder this lovely summer weekend:
1) How is everyone enjoying those gas prices in their area?
2) Where is Dipshit Dave Weigel and all the other Reason staff sockpuppet lefties here in the comments to gaslight us and tell us Biden is one of the greatest presidents ever and is doing an amazing bang-up job?
Please consider changing your name. Dave Weigel ruined his stellar reputation by retweeting a terrible joke about all women being either bipolar or bisexual. 🙁
Funniest joke I've seen in a while.
Looks like Weigel has bigger problems right now: https://www.theblaze.com/news/wapo-dave-weigel-sexist-joke
Look at how ugly and morbidly obese that Ron Jeremy lookin' sad clown is. Amazing that he hasn't offed himself yet, but in all likelihood he'll be dead within the next 15 to 20 years being that fat.
Not a bad joke he retweeted. That said, people need to just get off Twitter and leave it for Iowahawk to post cars on. It has no other useful purpose.
Well, bitches do be crazy.
1) Not nearly as much as I have enjoyed shopping in my local supermarket recently. Although I might suggest that the supermarket owners and stockholders are having a better time than I.
2) Give them some time. They may be out cashing their Democrat wumao checks.
Oh no!
It seems Dave Weigel, perhaps the most famous example of the Koch-funded-libertarian-to-garden-variety-MSM-progressive pipeline, committed an unforgivable sin. He retweeted a sexist joke!
Good thing he doesn't work here anymore. ENB wouldn't stand for it.
#LiberalMenShouldKnowBetter
Please, that's Liberal humanoids that were born with a penis but are very, very sorry about it.
Not to be confused with liberal humanoids that were born with a very, very sorry penis about it.
Oh my! Not only are the tranny police monitoring this site so are the Peta patrol.
Every eating place in New York that doesn't agree with this goose ban should hang a poster of the offending council members faces and a declaration that they wont be served. Chicago Pols implemented a goose ban several years back and were forced to repeal it by national public mockery.
From the same people who can't tell you what a woman is.
Whenever I see extreme over-reach by local authorities, I think we should encourage them to go even further. The trajectory of New York has leaned towards decline. SFC has eagerly jumped off the cliff to defeat liberty and reason. Chicago is a woke festival of violence and dysfunction. People and businesses seem to recognize this, and are leaving. The sooner these cities collapse, the sooner they can be rebuilt by sane people.
O/T: Oh good grief. Now the environmentalists are going after cryptocurrency.
https://apnews.com/article/cryptocurrency-climate-technology-environment-ee46804d5c6c0280b318d5ff3abcb731
If it becomes law, it would establish a two-year moratorium on new and renewed air permits for fossil fuel power plants used for energy-intensive “proof-of-work” cryptocurrency mining — a term for the computational process that records and secures transactions in bitcoin and similar forms of digital money.
I really doubt there are power plants specifically dedicated to cryptomining, are there? So this would effectively be a moratorium on air permits for every fossil fuel power plant in the state. How would this even be enforced? Go ask everyone in a power district whether there's anyone there doing cryptomining?
It's a weird scare. I think it's just a new thing, that does in fact use electricity, but people don't think it's worth anything at all (which I can be convinced of myself), so they get obsessive about banning it.
It's like the ultimate "nobody needs this" type hysteria.
Though, it always makes me wonder, how restricted are power companies with their ability to charge for electricity? Is this a thing where people are freaking out, but the miners are paying the cost for the electricity and so who gives a shit? Or is this an issue where there's some tiering of how much you can charge people, and thus people are able to use huge amounts of energy at some subsidized rate?
Surely in most cases the consumer actually pays for the electricity consumed. There are cases of subsidized power though I am sure.
Frankly this sounds a lot like people who hate fossil fuels finding some creative way to try and ban them.
AFAIK, the 'miners' are effectively paying higher rates for their power. The problem is that they're taking a lot of power and wasting it entirely, producing nothing that is in any way useful, at a time when the world needs to minimise power consumption and target it to efficient uses.
Frankly, even if there wasn't an issue with fossil fuels etc, what the coin miners are doing is disgusting. It's wilful destruction of value - economic vandalism. Billions of dollars of 'stuff' dedicated to the destruction of value in order to make poor people poorer (with no benefit to anyone else), when it could be used to help poor people live better.
It’s not “wasted” just because you don’t approve.
“I really doubt there are power plants specifically dedicated to cryptomining, are there?”
I find that very unlikely too.
In a sense this is actually accurate. Because there are people putting power generation facilities up that operate off of flared natural gas, and turn something (a greenhouse gas, at that) which would otherwise just be released directly into the atmosphere, is instead burned and converted to CO2 and water, which are both less "powerful" greenhouse gasses, while simultaneously performing cryptocurrency operations.
So, in other words, this economic incentive led people to build machines to turn what would otherwise be pollution into money. Which, by the way, allows people who would otherwise be locked out of the market to participate in the global economy because they can access markets that would be out of reach.
"I really doubt there are power plants specifically dedicated to cryptomining, are there? "
Yes. Literally, entire power plants dedicated solely to this complete nonsense.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/feb/18/bitcoin-miners-revive-fossil-fuel-plant-co2-emissions-soared
I doubt the government will get there in time to have any effect on the giant scam that is crypto, but really, it's pretty unarguable that the 'crypto-farms' ought to be shut down - by an enraged mob would be my choice, rather than government.
I'm sure that you will be hailed as a hero after you commit murder. And I'm likewise certain that it won't have any negative repercussions for you.
Huh, I learned something new today.
O/T: Ohio is approving armed teachers in schools.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ohio-let-teachers-carry-guns-after-24-hours-training-2022-06-03/
I think this is an iffy idea, for a couple of reasons: you're asking a lot of teachers to do all of their usual duties AS WELL AS all of the other extra curricular stuff they have to do (coaching, conferences, continuing ed, etc.), and then on top of that, expect them to be a skilled enough shooter to be able to defend a classroom full of kids. Furthermore, there will inevitably be mistakes and accidents, where kids unintentionally get a hold of a teacher's gun, or a determined kid overpowers a teacher and steals a gun. All for solving a problem that is quite rare.
On the other hand, if teachers carrying guns is a good idea, then they should at least have to go through some training for what to do in situations that a typical gun owner might not have to deal with. How much training is appropriate? I don't know. The new bill says the requirement is 24 hours' worth, the previous law said it was over 700 hours. 700 seems excessive, but is 24 enough?
Don’t worry about this kind of thing. Our betters will take care of it for us.
You show your ignorance every time you comment.
Something like 10-20% of Florida adults have conceal carry permits. They don't have any problem carrying peacefully and safely while doing their jobs; they have a lower criminal arrest record than off-duty cops!
Why do you think defending kids in a class room is especially hard? There's one door; shoot anybody who comes through it.
Damn you are ignorant.
Why is teaching any harder than all the jobs those armed people have?
Teachers have to keep up with the ever flexible and changing woke curriculum. Full time job.
I would imagine that the training would include tips on when it is appropriate, and when it is not appropriate, to reach for one's gun. The physical act of pulling a trigger is not hard, but the judgment required of when to pull a trigger is not always readily apparent.
Instead of imagining things like in the other thread, try informing yourself.
What training?
The rest of the country manages to not kill each other without training.
Jeffie hasn't been trained to think like that, so we're all just wasting our comments on him.
You are right, millions of gun owners manage not to kill each other without training. However for jobs in which guns are required for the job, there is generally an expectation that the successful applicant will have a certain level of proficiency with firearms. Why shouldn't the same type of expectation be placed on teachers choosing to carry guns to school?
Why is teaching any harder than all the jobs those armed people have?
It isn't, necessarily, but asking teachers to both teach and be security guards is asking them to do two jobs. And most of the time, teachers do more than simply teach anyway.
You still don't get it. Tens of millions of adult Americans across the country in all walks of life manage to conceal carry every day, and defend themselves and strangers. Why do you think teachers cannot do the same?
Large percentage of them are leftists, so he could be right. Tying their shoes is sometimes too difficult.
But some of them, like my ex brother in law, are former US Marines.
No one is suggesting mandatory carry for teachers.
I think teachers *can* defend their classes with a gun.
I think it would be *helpful* if those teachers who chose to do so would receive some additional training on how to do so in a classroom environment.
Do you disagree?
The training is available already. Just because it is not mandatory does not mean that it is forbidden.
That seems like more firearm training than some cops get.
Where did the law force teachers to carry? Fucking dumbass.
No one said "force".
What is your complaint then? That teachers who choose to carry can? Tell me how you're a libertarian and opposed to that.
Why don't you stop barking and snarling for a moment and read what I wrote.
“ they should at least have to go through some training ”
That’s probably the part people are giving you grief over.
No one said "force".
You did say "you" and "ask" when the law says "let" and, implicit in "let" is "freely refuse, asked or not".
Fine, let me rephrase.
If teachers are to be granted permission, either by the state legislature or by the school district itself, to voluntarily carry guns into their workplace, then I would expect that this permission should come with some conditions. Such as demonstration of basic competency on the proper use of a firearm.
No, we don't expect them to take on any of that.
There's a difference between allowing and mandating.
We're libertarians - not everything permitted must be mandatory.
What would you recommend as a prudent course of action?
Muting you.
And yet you are responding to my comments. Huh.
Also, secondary education an conferences are the normal stuff professionals are expected to do. Teachers are professionals, are they not?
And what coaching?
Finally, a kid can't get ahold of your gun if it is where it is supposed to be - in the holster, on your body.
"Finally, a kid can't get ahold of your gun if it is where it is supposed to be - in the holster, on your body."
I agree. But people nonetheless make mistakes and leave the gun out unsecured. It would be rare, for sure, but then again so are mass school shootings.
Also, secondary education an conferences are the normal stuff professionals are expected to do. Teachers are professionals, are they not?
Teachers, for decades, have been varyingly incentivized to participate in secondary education and in ways that normal professionals are not. Practically definitively, your math or biology teachers in primary and secondary education are not mathematicians or biologists. They are trained educators who *may* specialize in math or biology. Moreover, whereas a normal professional may engage in continuing education to advance their career they can't generally make it their career the way a teacher can.
24 hours actually sounds like a lot for me if it's just gun safety stuff. I don't really have strong feelings on it though.
I agree with your point of having concern about possibly introducing a new issue as a means to solve a very rare event. That's the problem with these rare events though, it's almost impossible to know if you're even doing anything.
I think I'd have to see what the training is. I keep thinking about it, but it sounds like a lot to me still. Unless it's including 24 hours of target practice and such. Gun safety is actually sort of simple, you just have to have it drilled into you a bit, but there's not much to it.
That people fail to do it is indicative of the human condition more than anything about how hard gun safety is.
Well, I do think there ought to be some level of proficiency that must be demonstrated, some mix of gun safety training and range time. We largely agree I think.
I agree with your point of having concern about possibly introducing a new issue as a means to solve a very rare event. That's the problem with these rare events though, it's almost impossible to know if you're even doing anything.
^Assumes that there's only one problem and that other problems, such as governments depriving people of their rights, are commensurately rare.
There is no right to carry one's gun onto the property of another without the property owner's permission.
I'd rather they approve the immediate firing of all public school teachers.
And then what?
Abolish public school and the Department of Education?
You forgot the converting of universities into sexy coliseums, but yes.
And then what? (I'm waiting for the part where you explain how kids get educated, even the poor ones.)
If schools are completely privatized, would school still be mandatory for kids?
If yes, then IMO there ought to be some form of government assistance to help poorer families educate their kids. Otherwise, having mandatory schooling is a very expensive unfunded mandate imposed on everyone. I don't know what form that type of assistance could take - vouchers, tax credits, ESA's - but it ought to exist on some level IMO.
If no, then there will be a whole lot of families who choose not to educate their kids, for whatever reason. These kids will then become adults who are expected to become productive members of society. Their prospects don't look good especially for a modern economy such as ours. Is this a problem?
If yes, then IMO there ought to be some form of government assistance to help poorer families educate their kids. Otherwise, having mandatory schooling is a very expensive unfunded mandate imposed on everyone. I don't know what form that type of assistance could take - vouchers, tax credits, ESA's - but it ought to exist on some level IMO.
Unless the current system contains lots of useless overhead and has been documented as such for decades. Then, eliminating public schools both cuts the overhead and generates a massive pool of low-cost, higher-efficiency teachers making private education comparatively cheap. Moreover, your supposition is that public education is abolished but that, somehow, current standard education standards are in any way maintained, as written, without staff, which broadly isn't even the case now, with staff.
Unless the current system contains lots of useless overhead and has been documented as such for decades. Then, eliminating public schools both cuts the overhead and generates a massive pool of low-cost, higher-efficiency teachers making private education comparatively cheap.
I imagine, yes, that the cost per pupil of education would go down if education were privatized. But there will always be some families on the margin regardless of the price.
Moreover, your supposition is that public education is abolished but that, somehow, current standard education standards are in any way maintained, as written, without staff, which broadly isn't even the case now, with staff.
Well, there are plenty of industries where firms within the industry choose to hold themselves to high standards, which are then assessed by a private accrediting agency. Such as Six Sigma and the like. I don't see why something similar can't happen for completely private education.
Stop being realistic. Nobody likes that.
I’m reminded of that Bastiat quote that sarc likes to post from time to time:
“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.”
Now, I’m not accusing you of being a socialist, but that is the argument it seems you are using.
To answer your question though, no the government should not force parents to send their kids to school. Imagine being a libertarian and thinking the government should force people to do anything.
And please, spare me the histrionics of pretending to care about poor kids and then lamenting the idea of killing of public schools that are failing them right now.
What could be more prison-like than having an armed government employee in every classroom?
O/T: C'mon guys, if you want to try to fake your way inside of the Capitol building, you are going to have to do better than a fake badge reading "Department of the INTERPOL".
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/03/politics/capitol-police-arrest-man/index.html
I dunno; that seems about on a par with your level of ignorance regarding conceal carry.
He's trying to ride the good will of Turn On The Bright Lights. And, honestly, I would have let him in based on that. Such a good album.
How does this line get past editors?
"Foie gras, as I've explained many times, is the French term for fatty duck or goose liver."
We know what foie gras and it reads pretentious and snarky. Small beans but it is Sunday morning and I have time to bitch.
Love Foie Gras. In France it is produced by letting the geese feed on their own. They do exceedingly well.
Our domestic Turkeys need to be killed for thanksgiving otherwise they would eat themselves to a point where they are so fat they can’t stand up or walk.
To many fucking busy bodies in the world.
You guys don't understand.
COMMERCE CLAUSE!!!!!1!!1!11
That gives the government unlimited power to be involved whenever money changes hands. They can't ban the private production of foie gras and they can't ban people from cooking it.
But once it is being sold? Well now they can define if it is allowed to be sold at all, licensing requirements, where it can be produced, where it can be sold, how it is produced, how it must be packaged, how it must be labeled, and they can even determine the correct price.
It's really amazing how the two words "regulate commerce" override every limitation put upon government. Makes me wonder why constitutions exist at all.
City Councillors addicted to regurgitating the New York Times party line on vegan social engineering should be force-fed an amuse bouche of Op-Ed page confetti if they dare bare their gullets in Manhattan restaurants.
Foie gras is like dirty butter. Feh.