Freedom Is a Victim of Russia's Invasion of Ukraine
This war, like all wars, will invigorate the state and be deadly to liberty.

With the experience of World War I fresh in his mind, Randolph Bourne famously warned that "war is the health of the state." Under stress, he noted, people rally behind the government and lash out at dissenters. Since then, we've learned that freedom lost in times of crisis is rarely fully regained after life settles down. War isn't always avoidable; Ukrainians had no choice but to fight or capitulate when Russian forces invaded. But, no matter whether Russia or Ukraine ultimately prevail, the logic of conflict inevitably makes a victim of individual liberty.
"War is the health of the State," Bourne wrote in 1918. "It automatically sets in motion throughout society those irresistible forces for uniformity, for passionate co-operation with the Government in coercing into obedience the minority groups and individuals which lack the larger herd sense."
Sure enough, 81 percent of Russians support the invasion of Ukraine, according to the Levada Center, an independent polling firm that walks a very fine line in the authoritarian state. A whopping 83 percent approve of Russian leader Vladimir Putin (a level of support not enjoyed by a U.S. president since George W. Bush in the aftermath, unsurprisingly, of the 9/11 terrorist attacks). Just as importantly and echoing Bourne's point, the pollsters found, a majority of Russians are aware of anti-war protests in their country but aren't very sympathetic to them.
"About a quarter of Russians believe that people go to protest actions because of 'indignation at the special operation in Ukraine' (26%), 'dissatisfaction with the state of affairs in the country' (25%), 'dissatisfaction with the policy of the authorities' (24%)," the pollsters added. "However, a third of respondents (32%) are sure that 'many come because they were paid.'"
Of course, Russian opinion forms in an environment of dwindling independent voices. Putin's government was never especially tolerant of opposition, and war has given the regime even more opportunity to persecute critical journalists and shutter media outlets that don't toe the official line.
"Under an amendment adopted on 4 March, any Russian or foreign person can be sentenced to up to 15 years in prison for spreading 'false information' about the Russian armed forces," Reporters Without Borders notes. "Under another law passed on 22 March, 'false information' about the activities of 'Russian state bodies' operating abroad – including the presidency, executive, parliament, national guard and Federal Security Service (FSB) – is also punishable by up to 15 years in prison."
So, war gave Russian authorities expanded leeway to muzzle dissidents and prod a public already inclined to rally around their leaders. But if war arouses tribal instincts among the aggressors, it does so no less among the aggrieved. Under existential threat, Ukrainians understandably lose patience for those in their midst who are sympathetic to Russia or are suspected of undermining defense efforts.
"Eleven Ukrainian political parties have been suspended because of their links with Russia," The Guardian reported last month. "The country's national security and defence council took the decision to ban the parties from any political activity. Most of the parties affected were small, but one of them, the Opposition Platform for Life, has 44 seats in the 450-seat Ukrainian parliament."
The Opposition Platform for Life had reportedly denounced the invasion, but it was undoubtedly pro-Russian in its sympathies and highly suspect in a situation where Ukraine's continued existence is at risk. It was suspended under the provisions of martial law, which was extended on April 21 through May 25, and can probably be expected to remain in place throughout the war.
But it's not just lawmakers. As open warfare became increasingly likely, the Ukrainian government banned media suspected of sympathizing with the enemy.
"Three pro-Russian TV channels have gone off the air in Kyiv after pro-Western President Volodymyr Zelenskiy signed a Ukrainian security council decree imposing sanctions for five years on eight media and TV companies," Germany's Deutsche Welle reported on February 5.
Then, in March, the Ukrainian government forcibly merged all TV stations under state control.
"The move means the end, at least temporarily, of privately owned Ukrainian media outlets in that country," Deadline observed.
And, as is common in mass warfare, both Russia and Ukraine are conscripting military recruits. Ukraine has, so far, confined the draft to reservists, though men ages 18-60 are forbidden to leave the country.
There's no doubt that Ukraine is the victim of a war of aggression. But if the defenders are ultimately victorious against their assailants, what sort of country will emerge? Will the emergency measures be rolled back, the bans rescinded, and the free press restored? And what of Russia? Does anybody really believe that a regime already inclined to authoritarianism will abandon the measures it took advantage of conflict to impose?
"Defense against threats, foreign and domestic, is one of the main reasons governments exist in the first place," Christopher Preble noted in his 2019 book, Peace, War, and Liberty. But, he added: "The evidence is irrefutable: throughout human history, government has grown during wartime or during periods of great anxiety when war is in the offing, and it rarely surrenders these powers when the guns fall silent or when the crisis abates."
"Several commonly employed indexes of the size of government display the 'ratchet phenomenon' during the 20th century: government grew suddenly much bigger with the onset of each great crisis; after the crisis it receded but usually not to the precrisis level," economic historian Robert Higgs agreed in 1985. "Thus, crisis typically has produced not just a temporarily bigger government but also permanently bigger government, according to several conventional measures."
Ukraine deserves to prevail in its defense against aggression, to retain its people's ability to decide their own destiny free of foreign domination, and to rebuild, hopefully at the expense of the predatory government that sent armies across the border. Before the war, Ukraine was a flawed but functioning liberal democracy, with free elections and middling respect for civil liberties. Since then, as in many countries under siege, the government has become more authoritarian. It's too soon to know how many, if any, of the emergency measures will disappear when the war finally ends.
Ultimately, Russia's invasion of Ukraine will exact a price in lives and wealth, but also almost certainly in freedom for dissenting voices and private action. This war, like all wars, will invigorate the state and be deadly to liberty.
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"This war, like all wars, will invigorate the state and be deadly to liberty."
That's the "glass half empty" view.
I prefer the more optimistic analysis of Reason contributor Fiona Harrigan — every war creates refugees, and every refugee is potential cost-effective imported labor for our billionaire benefactor Charles Koch.
#CheapLaborAboveAll
This is the correct Reason take.
Especially if some immigrants become gender-neutral sex workers and pot growers.
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Uh huh. Super free, super liberal, super functional. Not an oligarchic basket case victimized by a US color revolution in order to subvert the will of the Ukrainian people and install a US-friendly puppet regime. Certainly nothing like that. And now wouldn't you know it, that evil Putler has forced them into suspending civil liberties and shutting down all opposition political parties. This just proves that war is heck, gentlemen. Sometimes in order to preserve functional liberal democratic values you just have to obliterate them before your enemy does! Think about it, would you rather be killed by LITERALLY HITLER or by your own peaceful, blameless, functional liberal democratic government? QED
Oh also let's take bets on how long it will be before slavaukraini76 shows up to say I'm a Russian bot spouting Russian propaganda who hates the freedom and democracy of blameless and glorious Ukraine, only to tell me in the same thread that he has never and would never do that.
Don't know or care where you post from Vesta, but fortunately your work as a Putin tool isn't selling anywhere except in Mother Russia.
Fuck Putin
Awww, how flattering, it was sarcasmic. I guess slavaukraini76 is probably still over at Military.com trying to sound out the latest Zelensky hagiography and watching the war footage from Arma III.
How many new accounts do you create a week? That's a rhetorical question since you're going on mute and I'm not going to read any answer.
I'm thinking it is Misek. Obsessed with SM76 who ever it is.
Also, so us the list.
*show
Lick my balls.
Sure, there are plenty of legitimate criticisms against Ukraine. They're not a super-functional Western democracy even before the war. There is endemic corruption. There's a lot of problems there. But let's also keep in mind, the undeniable fact with regards to the current conflict:
Russia is the aggressor in the conflict, and Ukraine is the victim.
So yeah it is bad that the Ukrainian government decided to nationalize all of the TV outlets. That's really bad. BUT, at least they have an understandable rationale for why they did it; they were invaded by Russia! They are literally fighting for the existence of their nation. When you're put in a desperate situation where you're fighting for your own national survival, you'll tend to contemplate some unpleasant actions that you wouldn't ordinarily consider in peacetime. A war of aggression against you tends to do that.
On the other hand, what is Russia's justification for banning public dissent about the war? Were THEY invaded? Are THEY fighting for national survival? No. It is pure authoritarian censorship.
So go ahead and criticize what you see wrong about Ukraine, but let's also try not to lose sight of the forest for the trees. Russia is the aggressor here, not Ukraine.
Parent teacher conference in Jeffy’s world:
Xer Smith (Timmy’s teacher): Thank you for coming, I’m Xer Smith.
Mr. Jones (Timmy’s dad): Um, ok, glad to be here. How’s Timmy doing with his math? That’s always been his most difficult subject.
Xer Smith: I have other concerns to be honest. We were doing our lesson on Snow White, and Timmy seemed distracted when we were discussing the kiss between Snow White and Prince Charming. Mr. Jones, do you eat your wife’s ass?
Mr. Jones: What? Why are you asking that? It’s none of your damn business!
Xer Smith: Timmy made a poop joke during the discussion, and I’m curious if it has anything to do with you eating your wife’s ass?
Mr. Jones: This is ridiculous. I’m going to report you to the principal.
Xer Smith: Oh, so you’re a homophobe.
"Russia is the aggressor in the conflict, and Ukraine is the victim."
The people in the Donbass disagree, and have for almost a decade. As do those in Crimea.
Oh, also all the tortured and killed Ukrainian political dissidents from the last 8 years, murdered at the hands of the state and their extremist paramilitaries.
Russia is free to complain in the UN and ask for an independent fact finding mission to ascertain the truth, comprised of UN inspectors. Then they can prosecute it in the International Court of Justice.
Did Russia do that?
"Russia is free to complain in the UN and ask for an independent fact finding mission to ascertain the truth, comprised of UN inspectors. Then they can prosecute it in the International Court of Justice."
You win the internet joke of the day award.
Multiple times, over the course of many years
Then why did the International Court of Justice rule that there's no evidence to support Russia's claim of barbarities?
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1114052
Quote:
"The court president, US judge Joan Donoghue, said the court “is not in possession of evidence substantiating” Russian allegations"
If Russia has evidence of its claims, let it present them to the court. And then Russia can approach NATO for a joint invasion if they want. Or team up with China or whatever. Let them take other countries along, the way the US did when it invaded Iraq.
But invading alone? Fuck that shit. There's no excuse.
I agree with every word of a CJeff post.
Nigga, PLEASE!!
Have a memory slightly longer than 3 months. US pays Ukraine/Zelinsky (see Pandora Papers - around a billion $) to shell
the Russian speaking ethnic Russian civilian Donbass region for 8 fucking years, in violation of the Maidan accords. And after Bush 43 withdraws from INF treaty, tries to get Ukraine into NATO and plant nukes with less than 5 min travel time to Moscow.
This is a first strike operational plan.
Russia then has no option but to "launch-on-warning" virtually guaranteeing WW III to be Global. Thermo. Nuclear. War.
This war was engineered by NATO, and is being promoted for its benefit. NATO (and other independent analysts) have repeatedly said that NATO benefits the longer the war lasts.
So just what do you prescribe for this war, short of Ukraine's capitulation to a dictator who, before he was The Butcher of Maruipol, was part of The Butchers of Budapest and Prague and Warsaw?
While I would never supress anyone expressing any viewpoint, I damn sure wouldn't want them in any resistance force of mine and if they attempted to physically sabotage the resistance or give active aid and comfort to the invader in the face of two or more witnesses, as per the stajdards in the U.S. Constitution,they should expect to be treated like traitors, which means they should expect death for attempting to inflict death upon the rest of us.
If that sounds harsh, then there's one simple way to end this, Putina and the Putineers should get the fuck out of Ukraine and the Russian people should overthrow and assassinate Putin for the tyranny, suffering, and horror he has inflicted both on Ukraine and on his own people.
Or, best yet, Putin could take that Makarov in his pocket, put it in his mouth, and pull the trigger. If it was next to his temple it would miss his basal ganglia lizard brain.
I'd suggest you do the same but the bullet would likely not hit anything important.
Sooo...What's all this about supporting Ukraine equals support for One Worldism, huh?
Ukrainian Defense Minister Says International Security Organizations Have Failed
https://thehill.com/policy/international/3461135-ukrainian-defense-minister-says-international-security-organizations-have-failed/
Looks to me like Putin is more the One Worlder, since he still holds onto Russia's spot on the U.N. Security Council.
Babushkas like you doth protest too much, methinks.
The damage to world order will be serious and lasting if Putin is not ultimately unseated or preferably killed over this naked power grab. Already it has raised the rewards for countries without them gaining nuclear weapons. is causing more investment of national wealth into defense in Europe, if not the globe, and as rare exception since WWII of a naked grab of territory partly justified on genocidal motives ("Ukraine is not a country") by one of the world's most powerful - if pathetic - countries it sets us back to 19th century thinking.
Fuck Putin.
Check that: Kill him.
Fuck Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
Check that: Kill him.
Turns out political assassinations by nefarious actors ALWAYS lead to good outcomes and a huge benefit to the "world order".
But of course it'll be different this time. Don't you understand that Putler is committing GENOCIDE against... ethnic Russians?
We can argue on the definition of genocide Vesta, but not the fact that Putin has invaded another country and is destroying it's cities and murdering citizens while claiming it doesn't exist independently of his fucked up country.
You don't deny any of that I assume.
Why should he, it's true. The par about Ukraine's non-indepence, that is. The other stuff is NATO propaganda. Ukraine was a part of Russia for the last 400 years, excluding the part when it was an "independent" Soviet Socialist Republic.
Believe it or not, his replacement could be worse.
The damage to world order will be serious and lasting if Putin is not ultimately unseated or preferably killed over this naked power grab.
You say that as if that's a bad thing.
Oh no! Not the world order that's, among other things, turned Libya into an open air slave market and claims the right to deny everyone worldwide individual rights to fight against the cold/flu!
All right, the already fucked-up world order would be more fucked up if Putin is unopposed and left alive. Doe that sound better, Grand Inquisitor?
Fuck Off, Witch Burner!
Oh it is. To globalists.
You mean Globalists like Putin is and Ukraine's Defense Minister isn't?
Ukrainian Defense Minister Says International Security Organizations Have Failed
https://thehill.com/policy/international/3461135-ukrainian-defense-minister-says-international-security-organizations-have-failed/
The damage to world order will be serious and lasting if Putin is not ultimately unseated or preferably killed over this naked power grab.
Oh, yeah, the "liberal world order" that takes it upon itself to insist that the duly elected leader of a sovereign nation has to be removed or murdered. Yeah, no "naked power grabs" there, is there.
Already it has raised the rewards for countries without them gaining nuclear weapons.
Yeah, I think that ship sailed after the U.S. Secretary of State boasted "We came, we saw, he died" followed by idiotic cackling when they engineered the deposing and killing of a leader gave up its nuclear program at the insistence of the U.S.
This is insane. And we got into this mess because the progressive "smartest guys in the room" couldn't come to terms with the fact that Putin didn't roll over for them in 2014. Now, the sociopaths are advocating outright murder.
As if there were sth wrong with nuclear weapons? Sam Cohen designed enhanced radiation weapons able to absolutely stop tanks from proceeding past point X. Discriminating weapons are perfect for perimeter defenses and the short-lived isotopes exploited sidestep lingering radiation problems. But it helps to have a Bill of Rights in order to make good use of the right to keep and bear arms.
From the article...
"War isn't always avoidable; Ukrainians had no choice but to fight or capitulate when Russian forces invaded."
Also sad to say, the Good Guys don't always win, either!
A recent example is when now-Sainted Ashli Babbitt and Her Mobocratic Army LOST against Demon-Crap-lead Demonocrats! The Mobocrats had NO choice to NOT fight, just like the Ukrainians! (In reality, the Ukrainians could have peacefully chosen to become Putin slaves, just as the Mobocrats could have peacefully chosen to become enslaved by Demonocracy, but let's not go there).
A little-know FACT is that this whole Saint Ashli Babbitt thing was a proxy war between the Demononcrap-supporting Lizard People and the Righteous Amphibian People!
Let me give you a VERY prominent Amphibian Person with the CORRECT thoughts and attitudes! I give you Pepe the Amphibian Person, stolen-IP-4Chan-Frog! Racist frog, NAZI frog, yaya-yada!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepe_the_Frog
Do NOT lose hope! Saint Babbitt is STILL with us, in the Great Beyond The Beyond!
Don’t fear the revolt!
(insurrection)!
All our times have come
Here, but now they’re gone
Seasons don’t fear the revolt
Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain
(We can be like they are)
Come on, baby
(Don’t fear the revolt)
Baby, take my hand
(Don’t fear the revolt)
We’ll be able to fly
Baby, I’m your man
La, la la, la la
La, la la, la la
Valentine is done
Here but now they’re gone
Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbs
Are together in eternity
(Horst Wessel and Ashli Babbitt)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horst_Wessel
"Under an amendment adopted on 4 March, any Russian or foreign person can be sentenced to up to 15 years in prison for spreading 'false information' about the Russian armed forces,"
Democrats look on in envy.
See Fauci and two years to flatten the curve...
Putin's your leader's buddy Jerry and most of the supposed "libertarians" here are cheering him on and fellow autocrats like Le Pen and Orban. So much for "freedom". I guess if you don't have to wear a mask you're OK with restricting movement, speech, and murdering people.
Russian troops abducted him at a checkpoint near Berdyansk, to the south-west of Mariupol, undressed him in order to look for tattoos, and took him to a detention center in handcuffs.
“Abdullayev repeatedly emphasized that he was Azerbaijani and showed documents, but the invaders, using electric shocks, tried to get him to falsely confess that he was a soldier of the Azov Regiment,” Denisova said.
The electric shock torture was stopped only five or six days before agreement was reached on his release, but inhuman beatings continued until the Russians let him go, Denisova said.
The student said he heard gunshot sounds and screams from other cells where people were being tortured.
“They (tortured me) every day. On March 21, it was my birthday and I was tortured all day long… As a rule, the electric shock torture lasted 20-30 minutes, and they beat for an hour. The torture was repeated three times a day. Sometimes I fainted, cold water was poured on me and I continued to be tortured,” Abdullayev said in an interview with Media.az.
He also told how the Russian troops tortured other people who were taken prisoner with him:
“…Because a guy (volunteer) had a tattoo on his leg, they beat him so that his leg was very swollen,” Abdullayev said.
Read also:
"He had heart problems, and had a heart attack – I tried to help him, but then I was beaten even harder. As a rule, they did not hit (people) in the face, but for some reason it did not apply to Edik Krostov. When we saw him, there wasn’t an untouched spot on him. Serhii Nazarov’s body was constantly electrocuted, and they videotaped it.
Torture of civilians in the occupied territories is a war crime and a violation of the provisions of the Geneva Convention for the Protection of the Civilian Population in a Time of War, Denisova said.
https://english.nv.ua/nation/russian-invaders-held-captive-for-a-month-azerbaijani-student-who-tried-to-flee-mariupol-50235817.html
but inhuman beatings continued until the Russians let him go
Is using trained monkeys to beat people a war crime?
Spiro Agnew’s Ghost
Only a deranged lunatic imbecile with dementia would admit this out loud, especially right now. His brain is like undercooked mashed potatoes.
Ron Filipkowski
@RonFilipkowski
Trump says tonight that he was “amazed it didn’t get out” that he told the president of a NATO country in a closed door meeting that he would refuse to honor the treaty and defend other NATO countries if they were attacked by Russia....
You should see/reference current POTUS everyday.
Good for him.
(Note, though, that the NATO treaty doesn't even commit us to doing anything in particular; it leaves the meaning of "defending" to our discretion. A press release would be sufficient.)
Only a deranged lunatic imbecile with dementia would admit this out loud, especially right now. His brain is like undercooked mashed potatoes.
But enough about Joe Biden...
“Everyone was delinquent, they didn’t pay,” Trump told the crowd at the Ritz Carlton. “And they asked me, one of the presidents of the countries at a closed meeting…he said, ‘Does that mean that you won’t protect us in case – if we don’t pay, you won’t protect us from Russia — was the Soviet Union but now Russia?’”
“I said, ‘That’s exactly what it means,'” Trump continued, claiming he would violate the treaty’s key mutual protection clause. “Now, if I said, ‘No, I don’t mean that,’ then why would they pay? So somebody had to say it. I was amazed it didn’t get out. I was amazed. The fake news didn’t pull it out.”
“The money started to flow in,” Trump added, noting his threat to break the treaty’s Article 5 provision was very “risky.”
Imagine for a moment, your TDS and pro-Ukraine fervor plays right into Trump-Putin's protection scheme. 12D Checkmate!
Note that in his tweet, Filipkowski is actually admitting that it is true that the US would not actually come to the aid of NATO members.
What bothers Filipkowski is that Trump is honest about it; he prefers the US continue to lie.
For some reason Filipkowski thinks that being honest is stupid.
Like all wars? Gosh, and here I thought that the US revolutionary war, the US civil war, the French revolution, WWII, and many other wars ended up leading to more liberty and the defeat of illiberal or totalitarian states.
Government was more powerful at the end of all of those wars, and government power always comes at the expense of liberty. That's the point.
Indeed sarcasmic, which is why Czechslovokia didn't lose any freedom when they avoided war with Hitler. I think they still have an annual Neville Chamberlain Day in celebration, especially for the part of the Munich agreement where they were no longer required masks.
To be fair, the Czech rabble in arms hunted and killed Germans like rabbits in Australia once the surrender ceremonies were ended.
Study your history! The French revolution led to the guillotine for MANY perfectly innocent people (a real blood-bath, it was), and then to that power-pig war-monger, Napoleon!
Thomas Paine (the author of "Common Sense") missed his appointment with the guillotine due to a clerical error during the Terror. Even he was not a pure enough revolutionary for the Jacobins.
The US revolution was largely precipitated by an unjust tax by an authoritarian government. Right after the victory, Washington lead an army to put down a resistance to the unjust tax on whiskey. I'd say the state grew and liberty shrank then too.
Good point! I was too lazy to point that one out...
The US Civil War hardly led to much growth of freedom either, frankly... Blacks "freed" to become vote-less share-croppers, victims of the KKK, and of genocide in Tulsa... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre#:~:text=The%20Tulsa%20race%20massacre%20took,in%20Tulsa%2C%20Oklahoma%2C%20US.
Before the War Between the State, the USA was plural. After it was singular.
*States*
I thought it was deliberately right the first time. The Union is The Customs Union with high protective tariff. Even today the Reconstruction Amendments are helping boot Klan Mom out of fascist party renomination. Back when Austria was assimilated into the Nazi Reich, that was an overt Customs Union assimilation that also absorbed some $13 million in gold Austria had owed "These Sovereign States."
SQRLSY, blacks did enjoy freedom and votes while Reconstruction lasted and in fact several southern black congressman from that era where the last until the 1990's, including Florida which just gerrymandered away 2 black congressional seats after earlier voting restrictions on voting which targeted blacks.
12 years... And then stuff fell back into the crapper! President Grant wanted to do more, but political circumstances didn't allow it... Northerners got tired of sending soldiers & money down there... Government Almighty isn't very good at "changing hearts and minds" with force and power. The times have to be right, and "the people" have to be ready for whatever change is needed...
"The Reconstruction era was the period after the American Civil War from 1865 to 1877, during which the United States grappled with the challenges of reintegrating into the Union the states that had seceded and determining the legal status of African Americans."
Can't let the stupid Joe Friday claim that "Florida which just gerrymandered away 2 black congressional seats" pass. As a resident of District 5 I have to point it was over 200 miles East to West while only five miles North to South and had so many twists and turns in Jacksonville that only included black majority areas that it was literally a poster boy for gerrymandering. The new district is basically a lopsided polygram that meets court decisions that dictate compact districts. The new districts basically follow court ordered rules that outlaw gerrymandering and remove districts that were gerrymandered to create black majority districts.
After the 2000 census, the 3rd District extended from Jacksonville to southwest Orlando to make a majority-minority district. Majority-minority districts require gerrymandering to exist.
There were massacres going on all the time even after the Confederacy "surrendered."
So, we have two wars, one which increased liberty and one which decreased it.
Therefore, not all wars decrease liberty. QED.
The tax was not unjust, so much as the colonist's idea that Parliament had no authority to impose taxes on them as they were not represented in Parliament (at least, that is the short answer).
Headline: Dry is a victim of Water
The French Revolution? Are you an imbecile?
Interesting article about 1991 attempted USSR coup. Considering how much Putin yaps about the Soviet collapse and how his proposed elimination of Ukraine is a first step in reversing that.
A Russian general is publicly acknowledging that the war goal is Russian control east of the Dnieper and in the South the Black Sea coast and east of the Dniester. He doesn't talk about the rest of Ukraine, but Dugin has - a Russian puppet state until 'Ukrainians disappear and everyone is 'Russified' presumably involving gulags
State Department bots are among the dumbest "people" to have ever existed.
So explain how them dumb State dept bots managed to get official Russian new agencies to cite a Sverdlovsk appearance by an actual Russian general - in Russian.
You getting paid in rubles? And what can you buy now in St Petersburg? Tool!
I don't know if you know this (assuming you're not a figment of my
imagination and I'm not a figment of yours,) but JFree was a regular here long before the Russo-Ukrainian War. As was I. Not everybody who disagrees with your apologetics for tyranny and mass murder is a bot.
Fuck Off, Revanchist Putineer!
So you think that if you peddle propaganda, war mongering and imperialism for long enough that makes it acceptable?
It's always nice when the imbeciles come along to prove my point.
I'd like to thank jfree and encog for helping out.
You haven't proved anything except that Walter Durwnty evidently started a journalism school.
Fuck Off, Revanchist Putineer!
Correction: Walter Duranty. (Like that's egg-on-face for me.)
Encogitationer: you are a war monger, neocon, and imperialist. People who sit in glass houses...
I'm saying if he was a bot, he'd only come out for this issue and no other.
Well, unlike you: whenever there is an opportunity for war mongering, you take it, right?
Sure Nardz, not like Trump's buddy, the "genius" Putin. Now that guy knows how to fuck up big.
https://twitter.com/MattH_4America/status/1517258030039113730?t=nzbm_-wtXqL85o9DLeaELA&s=19
Americans can't even afford to buy food right now and Zelensky has the audacity to ask for $7 billion a month.
We shouldn't have sent him one cent.
Zelensky = glorified Hunter Biden
Tell us where he touched you, nardz. Or tell us how Putin became you BFF.
Nardz, libertarian Tokyo Rose.
That makes two of them already. The LP is as infiltrated with agents provocateur as anything out there. The fascists want us to bully girls, shoot hippies and overthrow Latin American governments and the communists want us to ban energy and abolish the parts of the Bill of Rights fascists aren't busily tearing down.
Nah! Nardz is not Libertarian and a more fitting Psy-War name for him would be Moscow Mikka. 🙂
You might have mentioned that the nationalization of pro-Russian Ukrainian TV stations took place after the Russian invasion began. I don't think anyone suggests that Ukraine's media restrictions will or should be permanent. I know in our current western political milieu it's hard to imagine that anyone in government could be sincere about anything, but Ukraine is sincerely fighting for its life against an invader that plans to take over and erase its national identity. Keep track of these issues, for sure, but let's not get wrapped up about them unless/until the war is over and the Ukrainian government resists getting back to normal.
but Ukraine is sincerely fighting for its life against an invader that plans to take over and erase its national identity.
While Ukrainians are certainly fighting for their lives (and the West is determined to sanction Russia down to the last Ukrainian) I am still not convinced that Russia has any such goals in mind. This will (as per usual) be described as a pro-Putin, pro-Russia comment (and I don't care anymore because I already know I'm a racist Nazi) but it seems to me, based on the history of conflict in the region, that Putin's goal is not to annex Ukraine but to simply annex the territories he's wanted all along: The largely ethnically Russian Donbas region.
Yes, there's a lot of ethnic Russians in the eastern part of Ukraine, but that's true of nearly all the states bordering Russia courtesy of the actions of the USSR; they were moved there to Russify the regions.
Not sure that's any sort of justification.
My comment is not meant to be a justification for the invasion. I'm merely trying to understand what's happening and what Putin's goals are, and I'm definitely not getting accurate information from the New York Times.
Well read and you will Diane, you idiot. They have these guys - we call them reporters - that are there writing what they seen and hat people tell them. Of course you prefer Trump to whisper sweet nothings in your ear and ignorant conspiracy mongerers, like most of the posters here, to tell you what is going on, but your ignorance is showing and it's not a good look. Never was.
Sqrlvo's syphilis is eating whatever brain may have once existed
Then why would the Putineers have penetrated deeper into Kyiv? And be attempting to approach Ukraine via the ports?
I don't assume you're the bad guy, but please explore further on these things.
How is that any of America's business?
As far as I'm concerned, you are "the bad guy", because you want American politicians to intervene in wars that the US government has no business being involved in.
I've never called for U.S. troops to be involved in war in Ukraine and you can search the entire Goddamn Forum for them if you like. You won't fine any such support for me.
What you will find is that I support the Ukrainian people's Individual Rights to resist Putin and the Putineers' subjugation, tyranny and murder.
And yes, individual Libertarians have every moral and legal right to make Individual Rights violations anywhere their business, even if presently-existing governments do not.
You might think you have to consult the Subsidiarity of your favorite "sunset town" to exercise your right to free expression, but I don't.
Those are side shows which were designed to lock up the bulk of the Ukrainian military to defend those cities while Russia's real goal is to surround the Donbas.
FYI, the London Times is doing some pretty good work on the Ukraine situation and they seem to understand the reality on the ground better than most of the rest of the Western Media.
They're printing a slightly different narrative than "The Ukrainians are devastating the completely stalled Russian Military!" which I don't believe is the case.
There's also plain old "Aim high to hit the bullseye." You show up at the negotiating table in Kiiiyeeeve with tanks just outside of town and negotiate to "liberate" the regions you want in order to remove the tanks from the regions they want rather than negotiating the removal of your tanks from the regions you want.
The donbas - along with other places like ngusecha, transdniestria, are just a tactic for Russia to freeze a conflict in place so that Russia can come back to it later and use it as a rationale to expand a conflict later when they are more ready.
Putin's broader view of Ukraine (as an essentially artificial failed state which cannot exist independently) is on the Kremlin website
Read that with the 20/20 hindsight that a particularly brutal invasion has now occurred, and with whatever truths (v Putinesque agitprop) you'd care to learn about the broader issues and obsessions and goals of Putin
Yes Diane, we know you're a racist Nazi too, but since you have suggested Putin is murdering civilians and destroying cites for a very limited goal of grabbing only part of another country, maybe he is a good guy who is just misunderstood.
Nah, he's a fuckwad like you, but with nuclear weapons.
So, which is it? Is the Russian military in shambles and unable to occupy the whole of Ukraine, let alone mount a westward blitzkrieg into NATO territory, or is the Donbas the Wakanda of Eastern Europe/Western Asia and despite it's inability to defend itself from Russia, is the key to Russia's go at a Thousand-Year Reich?
You say that as if that should mean something to me. I have no idea and no way of judging whose claims about Ukraine or Russia are correct or who is "justified" in their actions. And it is none of my business either.
I don't want the US to get involved in the Russia/Ukraine war at all, on either side, and I don't want to be forced to pay a single penny for it.
You're not really arguing a libertarian perspective. You are arguing in favor of willful ignorance.
LOL
Willful ignorance about issues that are far outside my circle of experience, responsibility or control is a libertarian perspective.
You're deluding yourself if you think you know anything meaningful about the Ukraine/Russia war; you are deluding yourself in the same way that central planners, globalists, and neocons are deluding themselves.
Not to excuse it, but the last time communists and nationalsocialists were at each other's throats in Yourup, there was no shortage of government intimidation of the media. Lord Haw Haw was executed by the Brits though he'd taken precautionary German citizenship. Orwell reports the MOI made "suggestions" and "recommendations" none (but Haw Haw) dared flout. Collectivists value the opinion-influencing appearance of unanimity, not your right to live.
"There's no doubt that Ukraine is the victim of a war of aggression. But if the defenders are ultimately victorious against their assailants, what sort of country will emerge? Will the emergency measures be rolled back, the bans rescinded, and the free press restored?"
It's something to take note of but also a necessary measure. The country is at war and, while unknown to America where we just go to the mall all the same, war normally necessitates people to make sacrifices. Turning off blatant propaganda avenues of the enemy seems perfectly fine in time of war. Just need to make sure it goes away when the war does.
Sure enough, 81 percent of Russians support the invasion of Ukraine, according to the Levada Center,
So... the sanctions aren't working?
Damnit. Gonna have to put that narrative into the shredder.
Their polls are as subject to pressures and as subect to false answers as ours, especially when speaking opposition to Putin would mean trips to Putin's Gulag for a few years, much as what happened to Pussy Riot.
And what business of yours is it whether Russians support Putin's actions in Ukraine?
Even US "allies" torture, murder, and then chop up enemies of their regimes. So, your selective outrage is politically motivated, rather than grounded in a consistent moral outlook.
NOYB you twit,. some of us have strenuously opposed US actions that included torture and murder and have no reason to accept it - and much worse - when Trump's friend does it. I know that's hard for you to swallow, given your obeisance to both of those assholes.
Fuck Putin
Check that, kill the mother fucker!
Encog has an empty and meaningless life, an absence he tries to fill by jumping on the totalitarian globalist bandwagon of which Bad Guy to hate today.
TooChilly's article and Diane mentioned polls and I gave my thoughts on fhe polls, just as you gave your thoughts on my thoughts. It's how a Forum works.
Even US "allies" torture, murder, and then chop up enemies of their regimes. So, your selective outrage is politically motivated, rather than grounded in a consistent moral outlook.
The U.S. Government's allies may do all this shit, but I don't call them my allies if they do. I'd say that's pretty consistently Libertarian.
And I didn't criticize you for speaking out, I criticized you for concerning yourself with the issue in the first place.
You're an ignorant, self-righteous fool.
This is entirely possible. Which is why I always distrust anything that comes out of a country with state media. And yes, that includes Canada.
Diane, you distrust everything until you hear what you want to hear.
Uh, yeah, trusting everything until you hear what you don't want to hear will do that to you.
The Dixie Chicks were much more carefully threatened, intimidated and coerced by Bushista rednecks.
Also, the argument that Putin has been 'Russifying' Eastern Ukraine/NATO doesn't speak to well of the whole 'Open borders!' movement.
So, what do you base this on? Have the HispaniFascists been rolling their tanks north on and over us, accompanied by boots, bombs, artillery, missiles, and bellicose bombast about nuke-weapons?
So, what do you base this on? Have the HispaniFascists been rolling their tanks north on and over us, accompanied by boots, bombs, artillery, missiles, and bellicose bombast about nuke-weapons?
Na they just stick to drugs, prostitution, and M13 members with small arms.
In other words, it compares to Russia's war on Ukraine, like stepping lightly on your toes a wee tad, v/s torturing you to death! The comparison is absurd on its face!
Why do I feel like the new infatuation with Ukraine and vitriol against Russia by the American left is roughly equivalent to how they might take sides with a stranger being antagonized by a biker gang neighbor. Only they don't realize the stranger is an energetic Trump supporter.
It's closer to a bunch of methods heads constantly threatening and assaulting a Trumper's family, and the American left being programmed to suddenly worship the meth heads because they're "victims" of the Trumper/antivaxxer/Russian seeking to resolve the issue.
The meth heads have spent years being assholes and rejecting all attempts at peaceful resolution or ceasing their offenses.
All of Europe is religious fascists or communists. No effort is spared to keep libertarians from marshalling law-changing spoiler votes, and the mechanism for balking emergence of freedom is Nixon style subsidies to entrenched Kleptocracy parties. With great difficulty some tiny redoubts resist totalitarianism there as here.
https://twitter.com/Snofox6/status/1517304909577740288?t=P1kUk7-sLk1a-VpFiFQjQw&s=19
Why are we funding the entire Ukraine? Seriously WHY?
The main title of this excellent piece is correct, so why the predictive subtitle when it is obvious that truth and freedom are already toe-tagged casualties? Prophecy was not recommended journalist Bierce: PROPHECY, n. The art and practice of selling one's credibility for future delivery.
Most telling is the reaction of Russians, who know it when they see it, that a huge fraction of any protest crowd is informants, snoops, infiltrators, enemy fifth columnists and... well... sockpuppets.
"Once again the UN comes to the rescue and prevents a War." I looked for this comment but for some reason I can't find it.
Here's an inconvenient fact - many parts of the world that can be considered as civilized modern societies have emerged from either warfare or direct western intervention.
The Korean War exists as the backdrop for MASH for most Americans, but this was a significant conflict in which more than 30 nations formed a coalition to fight in a TINY ass peninsula no one has heard of back then. ROK wouldn't exist if we treated like Ukraine back then. Japan is self explanatory, and it's worth mentioning that we FORCED it out of its isolation by making them open their ports to us.
The Napoleonic war is even more obscure in America, but that was defining moment in Europe. Europe wasn't cool with being forced to join Napoleon's continental system (trade blockade against Britain) and his rule in general, so they banded together take him out. That was a near 20 year conflict.
None of that is an argument for going into war in Ukraine. Wars do erode personal liberty even if the right side wins. But it's a bit naive to think that we can beat Russia in a long game by just slapping sanctions on them and arming middling opposition with no long term prospects. Putin is basically Saddam Hussein of this generation, except he actually runs a military superpower.
It's safe and comforting to say "no no, we can't do this and that, because that might lead of WW3, and if you disagree you're warmonger". Right now caution is the best option. But wars rarely go as scheduled. Depending on what happens in the near future, we're going to have start asking some tough questions.
Tough questions should have been asked some years ago. For sure in 2014 and realistically before that. One of the reasons NATO gave for not granting Ukraine membership was the lack of stable borders. Like it or not for many years Russia claimed parts of Eastern and Southern Ukraine and fairly easily occupied the Crimea and has significant support in the East and South.
It should come as no big shock to anyone that Russia is a bully that likes to slap others around; especially if there is some support for it. It is also obvious to anyone paying attention that Ukraine has real problems apart from Russia; it always does great in the corruption rankings.
What is going on in Ukraine now has been an accident waiting to happen for several years and it is not likely there is a happy ending.
No mention of the US role creating this War? You only got half the story, then. It is better to be uninformed than misinformed
By the way, if what this person is saying is true, the U.S. staying out of war is no longer an option:
Prominent Russian TV presenter says war 'against Europe and the world' is on the way following Moscow's invasion of Ukraine
https://www.businessinsider.com/pro-putin-presenter-war-against-europe-world-coming-after-ukraine-2022-4
Good god, you're willing to start WWIII because of neocon propaganda.
Given how poorly Russia's invasion of Ukraine has been going, and given what a mess any aftermath of the war will be for Russia whether they win or lose, that is just absurd.
Even the incredibly dysfunctional European military alone could keep Putin at bay.
Really, are you as stupid as you seem to be, or are you actively participating in neocon propaganda and think everybody else is stupid?
I'm not saying I support a World War (which would be World War V, not III.)
I am saying if Putin attacks every other nation with a Russian presence for the same reason he attacked Ukraine, then all of the European NATO nations, and thus the U.S. will be drawn into the maelstrom.
Given how poorly Russia's invasion of Ukraine has been going, and given what a mess any aftermath of the war will be for Russia whether they win or lose, that is just absurd.
And since when is Putin above absurdity, especially the absurdity of throwing dead bodies at problems?
Really, are you as stupid as you seem to be, or are you actively participating in neocon propaganda and think everybody else is stupid?
I'm not as stupid as I think you are. 🙂
Even the incredibly dysfunctional European military alone could keep Putin at bay.
your are fucking retarded
Could somebody get Tuccille an editor? Repeating the Bourne quote in the first two (short) paragraphs is clunky writing.
Everyone loses in war, that's so true. The fact that Ukrainians had no choice but to fight or capitulate when Russian troops invaded the country is heartbreaking. I've seen the photos and videos of the situation in Ukraine, and it's devastating to see people suffer there. And there's nothing we can do to stop it because it can easily result in WW3, and that's what many people are afraid of. Well, we can only help the Ukrainian people by sending money to various organizations and supporting projects like this one to provide Ukrainian kids and their families with humanitarian kits, but it won't bring the war closer to the end.
Hi there. I understand that many people might not care at all as long as it does not affect them. However, my relatives live in the Russian Federation and I would not like to lose contact with them. I have already applied to russia-travel visa services in order to get a visa if necessary and go home to my parents. I am afraid that something will happen to them, because my parents are extremely oppositional and conduct anti-government activities. I am very afraid that my ma and pa will be sent to prison.