Supreme Court Takes Up California's Attempt To Control How Other States' Farmers Treat Pigs
Do California's rules violate the dormant commerce clause?

Can the state of California control how farmers in other states raise their pigs? Today the Supreme Court said it will weigh in on the matter.
California voters in 2018 approved Proposition 12, a ballot initiative that banned the sale of pork and chicken if the livestock was not raised in pens large enough for the animals to move around freely. California residents eat lots of pork (13 percent of what is consumed in the United States), but the state produces only .3 percent of the national supply. And so Proposition 12 had the impact of forcing regulations (and significant costs) on farms outside California.
The National Pork Producers Council (NPPC) filed suit against the state, arguing that Proposition 12 violated the dormant commerce clause, the constitutional doctrine that forbids states from imposing regulations that interfere with interstate commerce.
A Supreme Court precedent from 1970, Pike v. Bruce Church Inc., concluded that overly burdensome regulations that control the circumstances by which food producers can ship goods to other states can run afoul of the commerce clause when they force significant costs on those producers with little actual benefit. The NPPC is leaning on that decision (and some others) to argue that Prop. 12 is unconstitutional.
California Attorney General Rob Bonta is defending the proposition (as is the Humane Society of the United States), noting that the law is not discriminatory (it treats pork producers within the state the same as those out of the state) and citing several top pork producers, such as Hormel and Tyson, that say they will be able to continue to meet the needs of California consumers. Bonta further claims, "Petitioners have not alleged that compliance with that restriction has caused 'massive and costly alteration[s]' or 'disrupt[ed] supply and demand nationwide.'"
But pork costs for consumers have skyrocketed nationally, and that's not entirely due to the current jump in inflation. Consumer prices in 2021 jumped about 7 percent over 2020, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Around that same time, retail bacon prices jumped 23.7 percent. The differences in bacon prices between California and Florida are significant. According to Instacart, a pound of Oscar Mayer bacon costs $11.49 at Los Angeles grocery stores. A Wal-Mart in Orlando, Florida, is charging $6.98 for the exact same slab from Oscar Mayer.
Bonta argues that California voters were informed that the passage of Proposition 12 could drive up pork prices in the state and voted for it anyway. True enough. But consumers outside of California didn't get a vote.
The libertarian Cato Institute has filed an amicus curiae brief supporting the pork industry, noting that California is putting producers on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars to construct compliant housing for pigs but has not provided any evidence that larger cages will actually advance animal welfare or reduce the risk of foodborne illnesses. The brief notes:
California could certify that in-state pork producers have raised their stock in a humane fashion and let California consumers put their money where their mouths are by choosing between humane instate pork and pork imported through interstate commerce. Such regulations would achieve California's interest in regulating intrastate pork production without excessively burdening interstate commerce. What California may not do is presume to prescribe agricultural practices for the entire United States. The Constitution vests that power in the U.S. Congress, not the people of California.
If the Supreme Court upholds Prop. 12, Cato notes that "7.5 million California voters will have successfully projected their moral standards onto the entire American populace." No doubt many of these voters would love to have done just that, but the Constitution does not allow it.
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California is the China of the US.
Except for Chinatown.
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And China is asshole.
So, the Supreme Court is deciding *another* pig-related case?
No this one's not about term limits.
These pigs aren't getting qualified immunity.
If the Supreme Court upholds Prop. 12, Cato notes that "7.5 million California voters will have successfully projected their moral standards onto the entire American populace."
Wasn't there a time on our history when one bunch of states told another bunch of states what they could and couldn't do?
How did that work out again?
Just for the record:
There are approximately 4.2 million gun owners and 20 million firearms (9 million handguns) in California.
32% of Americans say they personally own a firearm according to the 2021 National Firearms Survey. This means that more than 81.4 million Americans own guns. This number only includes adults over 18.
So the rest of America, outside California, has 77.2 million gun owners.
California is outgunned 18 to 1. Now who gets to set the rules?
if those 77.2 million KNOWN gun owners let them,then THEY do. And have done for half a century and more.
Seat belt and smog laws, "safety" laws for cars, trucks, motorcysle,s chiansawa, lawnmowers, knives, bicycles (thos =e idiotic reflecters tangled up in the spokes are straight out of California) cancer warning labels on everything u can imagine (WHO is going to eat car and truck tyres and thus ingest something harmful?) how mamy square feet of space to their favourite demographic, the "homeless" have in which todwell? A smal fraction of what they mandate ME to have for MY home.
That state have been forcing their sick will on the other 49 plus terrirotries for decades now. Hope these guys in their black nighties wake up and fly right on this one.
He who has the most firepower.
The issue there was not the conditions poultry were raised in. The issue was that people were enslaved and sold as property. The issue was that states tried to leave the union. The issue was that those state attacked attack a federal facility.
Trying to claim moral equivalence is beyond stupid.
Nobody suggested it was you dumbfuck. It's called an analogy. Also pigs are not in the poultry family.
Not according to the federal government of the United States, who had no intention of ending slavery and in point of fact did not do so until 3 years into the war when its genocidal mania to maintain a political union that they themselves had formed from the severed remains of the previous political union less than a century earlier.
Yep, now you're getting it. Power. Unbridled federal supremacy in compete contravention of the Declaration of Independence which began an illegal secessionist movement from the Kingdom of Great Britain, with the insurrectionists firing the first shots against British regulars at Lexington. Perpetual union for me but not for thee. Naturally since you're a facist totalitarian piece of dog shit you support committing genocidal warfare against your own countrymen to prevent them seceding from a union seeking to economically and politically isolate them.
You speekee englee gudly! Of course, the political dissolution began half a year before Fort Sumter and hostilities against the secessionist states had already been threatened by Saint Lincoln since his inaugural address. But oopsie woopsie, that doesn't quite comport with the hagiographies, does it? Conscripting over a million soldiers to slaughter over a quarter million men, women, and children like dogs while suspending habeas corpus was a trivial price to pay to accelerate the end of slavery by perhaps 20 years in a country whose insatiable expansion and deranged Manifest Destiny ideology had already set the stage for a peaceful political reversal of the ignoble institution.
The issue there was not the conditions poultry were raised in.
no one claimed that was the case.
The issue was that people were enslaved and sold as property.
The War of Northern Agression was neig=ther caused by or ment to adress this issue, nor did it in any way.
The issue was that states tried to leave the union.
The soveriegn stateds that left had freely JOINED the union in the beginning based on what the Union was represented to BE and how it was t FUNTION. Those same sovereign states left when the game changed to the point they no longer wished to play ball withh those rules. They freely joined mthey freeely left. WHERE in the Constitutoin does it say "once a state always a state, there ain't no wayout"?
The issue was that those state attacked attack a federal facility.
The issue about that "federal facility" i that Lincoln had confiscated Fort Sumpter without justificatioin, and used it as a base for his navy which was illegally mrauding and blockading Southern States' shippping in and out of their newly and lwfully formed nation. The Confederates attacked that fort, as Lincoln had hoped they wold to give him a viable excuse to declare war on all the Confederate States. Fort Sumpter was PART of the recently seceded State of SOuth Carolina. And WHY was Lincoln's Navy mraugding and blockading the Confederate states? WHat CONSTITUTIONAL gounds? Coe on, tell us the basis of his authroity to order that blockade. And on WHAT basis could HE declare that the import of goods from Europe was cause for sinking and capturing privately owned/operated merchant vessels? The teriffs he had imposed were unconstitutional as they affected the variosu states to different degrees, read your US Constitutoin. Not goo, naughty naughty mustn't do.
Slow down dude.
Sounds a lot like "Things King George would say".
A few other things: States demanded that they'd be allowed to send thugs into other states and kidnap people residing there - without requiring real proof that the victims were runaway slaves. States denied their own people freedom of speech, and then tried to deny freedom of speech to representatives of _other_ states _in_ Congress - including not only demanding rules against speaking against slavery, but beating a Congressman until he'd never be right again. States sent people to influence an election in Kansas, not only with nonresidents voting in that election, but by killing people in the street for expressing the wrong opinion.
If the south was that desperate to expand slavery to Kansas, just letting them leave the Union would not have kept the peace for long. In a few years, they'd have been invading Kansas and then California.
How'd that work out?
You mean the freed slaves?
If you lean your head juuuuust a bit to the side you might notice that pile of 650,000 dead Americans killed by their fellow countrymen on the orders of a tyrannical madman who never endeavored to free a single slave from captivity until 3 and a half years into a conflict in which a million men were conscripted and the constitution was suspended. Some folks think a peaceful resolution to the conflict by letting the confederate state secede and using political and economic pressure might have been a better approach, your Blacked.com subscription notwithstanding.
(Women being one-dimension histrionic stupid cunts is why you weren't allowed to vote for 150 years, btw)
How the heck is January 1, 1863 "3 and a half years into a conflict" that began in 1861? Lincoln hadn't been President for two years when he signed the Emancipation Proclamation.
And look what so many brain-dead women have done to this nation! We should have never let women vote at all. Maybe the Muslims are on to the idea of their females being seen and not heard.
Wow, never thought id saw an legitimate use of the commerce clause in my lifetime. Usually its just cited as giving politicians the power to ban guns, speech, religion, raise taxes, require us all to buys teslas...
Not Teslas. Has to be an EV from a union shop.
If California wants to be able to allow non-citizen a to vote in elections, non-residents should get a vote also - and under the exact same reasoning.
Federal election laws are set by the US constitution and enabling legislation, including the Voting Rights Act. In point of fact, California does allow non-citizens to vote in local elections where the state gets to set its own policy. If you're "undocumented", they'd have no way of knowing if you were a resident anymore than they would if you were a US citizen. California is retarded.
I wonder if they'd send a mail-in ballot to an address in another state...
"under the exact same reasoning"??
Dude, those folks don't care about "reasoning", and a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of unwoke minds". Or something.
Anyway, it isn't the residency status that jiggers their jimmies, it's the fact that, as illegals, they CAN'T be verified. Only counted. And that suits one party just fine.
"What California may not do is presume to prescribe agricultural practices for the entire United States. The Constitution vests that power in the U.S. Congress, not the people of California."
Cato lawyers not exactly originalists, are they?
No; There is not U.S. Constitutional authority for "agricultural practices". That would be left to the State or each Person.
I mean, they're right insofar as the constitution doesn't allow states to regulate *other state's* agricultural practices because of the dormant commerce clause. But it's not because it allows the federal government to regulate agricultural practice, but because it allows the federal government to regulate the method by which the produce of agricultural practice is traded among the states (and excludes states from doing so - in fact, the original intention was to stop trade barriers, not to actively impose conditions on trade).
"in fact, the original intention was to stop trade barriers, not to actively impose conditions on trade" --- Well Said!!! That deserves a Repeat......... I nominate you for the Supreme Court Seat 🙂
Did you just assume squirrelloid’s race and gender?
"(as is the Humane Society of the United States)"
I feel it's worth reminding people that the HSUS mentioned in the article is a completely different organization than your local Humane Society. Local Humane Societies run shelters and take care of abused animals.
HSUS is an activist lobbying organization in direct affiliation with PETA. They do not run shelters and they do not save animals from abuse or neglect.
They get stupid laws written like this one, or the one we had to overturn in Missouri several years back that set bizarre kennel size restrictions that were supposed to combat 'puppy mills', but would have actually shut down most kennels, veterinary clinics, and pet shelters in the state.
Local Humane Societies also support the restriction of hunting and trapping, and as such deserve just as much scorn as their overarching masters. Fuck them. I don't expect people to support hunting unless they choose to. If they oppose it, then they are ideologically my opponents. If you're anti hunting and not a vegetarian, you're also an idiot. Those steaks don't show up at the store because benevolent cattle commit mass suicide for the betterment of mankind.
If you're anti-hunting and pro-conservation, you're an idiot.
About half of all conservation funding comes from hunting permits.
Another backdoor approach to abbreviating our rights and freedoms. I've always thought an endangered snail was never important enough to prevent a farmer from using any fraction of his property.
I'd love to know how the fuck the court possibly overturns this considering the bullshit they pulled back in 2018 making businesses in one state serve as tax collectors for the government of another state where they have no physical presence. If California has the legal authority to force a business in Maine to collect and remit California sales taxes every time they ship an internet order to a customer in California, it's hard to see how a California regulation *that only applies within California* is a restraint on interstate commerce. And even if they do rule against California, it will be a good result by bad process that will obliterate any pretense that states have any sovereign authority at all. The supposed "laboratories of democracy" are supposed to be able to pass shitty laws. If Californians want to pay out the ass for pork that complies with the regulations they voted for, that's their business. Stop voting for totalitarian fucksticks.
For that matter, goddamn near everything I buy has a California Prop 65 warning label on it. I guess manufacturing has a shittier lobby than ag.
Well California is perfectly free to apply its insane law to producers locate within the state. It is NOT free to apply that law to producers in other states, nor to prohibit the sale of their products in California.
The argument would be that collecting sales tax has obvious benefits, but the park regulation doesn’t. That’s what this case comes down to.
Are you retarded, an idiot or just a shill? A policy of how to raise animals in California only would be fine, but where this goes wrong is it's a restriction on the living conditions for animals for sale in California which necessarily reaches into other states and dictates their business whether they like it or not.
"7.5 million California voters will have successfully projected their moral standards onto the entire American populace."
And then Will Smith slapped me in the face.
I don't get his problem. when used correctly, girls who like sex with more than one guy are fun.
If you're a self-loathing closet queen who wants to look at other guys' cocks with the pretext of a woman being involved, I guess.
you can concentrate on that part.
How can you respect a dude who slaps on behalf of an ugly bald headed dried up old sow who cheats on him?
He was only doing so because she ordered him to...oh, I see.
Seems to me that if the Florida price is so much lower for the same package, one ought to compare other food prices to see how they differ.
Or to out it another way -- if California really is jacking up prices for everybody, because producers don't want separate hog farms, why is Florida's price so much lower?
Regardless of how stupid California's law is, and regardless of how unfree such a law is even within California, the alleged facts in this article seem to me to undermine the theory that the law violates the commerce clause.
The proper response, of course, is to let the people choose. Have both kinds of pork products available at whatever their natural prices are, $11.49 for the humane bacon, $6.98 for the cruel bacon. I doubt even 10% of the shoppers would pay twice as much. In fact, I'd say shoppers have already chosen, since I've never seen any bacon labeled "humane", and farmers and bacon producers are just as interested in making money as everybody else; if they don't take advantage of the opportunity to make piles of pig profits, the opportunity probably doesn't exist.
Or to out it another way -- if California really is jacking up prices for everybody, because producers don't want separate hog farms, why is Florida's price so much lower?
There's a possible but-for argument here.
Probably because east coast pork comes from east coast pork producers. The states closer to California probably pay the higher cost because of the California regulations.
You can't let people choose. That's not progressive. They might make the "wrong" choice, so you have to tell them what to choose.
I remember when this passed. It was very heavily advertised as humane eggs. I don't remember pork coming up at all in the propaganda before the election. It was almost universally about how chickens could never spread their wings, blah blah... I'm pretty sure they had most voters thinking egg hens were restrained like the intro sequence to Robot Chicken.
Whatever. Half the people here would vote Democrat literally regardless of the policy. Saving chickens was super popular then, so all the trendy progressives were on board like when shopping bags were the trendy thing, or straws were the trendy thing. Almost nobody was thinking about not being able to afford bacon.
> Almost nobody was thinking[.]
*cough*
"Half the people here would vote Democrat literally regardless of the policy."
Voting against animal regulations is racist.
You seemed to have missed the part where California is not giving consumers that choice, but purporting to force them to buy the free range (which is actually much more likely to be contaminated) eggs at twice the cost.
You seem to have missed the part where I said, "The proper response, of course, is to let the people choose."
The problem is that CA is distorting the market in a way that makes it hard for farmers who don't make those expensive changes to stay in business. It's not like a major pork packer is going to create two separate plants, one for 'humane' pork and one for the other pork. If they want to sell in the CA market, they'll require all pork to be humane, and that'll kill the non-humane farms ability to sell pork. Effectively, everyone will end up being subjected to the CA law.
It's not like farmers are even allowed to sell pork products directly to consumers in most states.
Surely there's enough bacon eaters outside of California for non-Cali farmers to just abandon the Cali market to Cali pig farmers?
Cruel Bacon sounds like the title for one of Zappa's atonal "expériences en musique sérielle".
Seems to me that if the Florida price is so much lower for the same package
Uh, what in the world gave you the impression that they're the same package?
I mean, I get the idea that the distinction between 'humane' and 'inhumane' pork can't be detected from the gross down to the sub-atomic level but it's not the same package of pork. With the law enacted prior to 2021, the CA pork clearly contains more love, by law.
The local Ralph's in Orange County CA charges $6.99 to $7.29 for a pound of bacon. I don't know what market this guy cherry picked to find $12 bacon, but it undercuts his credibility.
Don’t forget that Florida put into its constitution that pigs have to have a cage large enough to turn around in.
That was done in the every 10 year constitutional revision referendum.
So Florida is already following California’s law for several years now
I assume the cost to make bigger cages have already been there recouped in Florida; and now Florida producers can undersell California producers.
The next target under the Commerce clause should be the states' attempts to regulate the Internet.
The answer to the question posed is quite obviously yes.
Farrowing crates, which is the issue, are only used for a short period and it is for the protecting of the piglets. Without them, especially when they are newly born, the sow will inadvertently roll over on them and suffocate them. It is a real problem. Pigs have such large litters and frequently (commercially about three times a year, average litter about 9 piglets) because most piglets won't survive adolescence in the wild. We have domesticated them (I use domesticated loosely, pigs revert back to the wild very easily and successfully) to take advantage of the large litter size and fast growth rate. As a result we try to limit deaths among the litter (what you actually sell to make a profit) as much as possible.
As for poultry, cages are designed to keep them clean to protect the health of the hen and to cut down on egg contamination and foodborne illnesses. Hens, like all animals, only have a limited number of eggs they produce in their lifetime, and generally only lay for less than two years.
If you don't like how commercial producers care for the stock, I suggest you raise your own, or buy directly from farmers who raise their stock the way you prefer. You'll pay more, but that's your choice, don't force it on others. Me personally, I've gone to raising as much of my own as possible, because I can do it cheaper than I can buy it, in the long run. I also don't support the distributor monopolies, because they screw us farmers and ranchers over, so the less money I send them, the happier I am. And yes, they are monopolies and yes they do rig the system (underpaying ranchers and feedlots, while overcharging customers and using any excuse they can to lower the cost paid to ranchers whenever they can). Unfortunately, laws like the one California passed just makes the monopolies stronger. These aren't natural monopolies but ones brought about by regulatory capture.
Farrowing crates, which is the issue, are only used for a short period and it is for the protecting of the piglets.
+1
SCOTUS needs to explicitly strike down CA's law for stupidity. The vast majority of the pork that turns up on the dinner plate never sees a day inside a crate so small that the animal can't move about freely. The crates are designed so that the piglets can move about and the sows can't. The gilts, barrows, and boars, once weaned, will never see the inside of a farrowing crate again.
Lumping pork and poultry together is just abjectly stupid.
If you start striking down laws for stupidity where does it end? Just stupid laws, laws proposed by stupid people or laws passed by stupid people? Would there be any laws left? Libertarians, always trying to bring Somalian roads to America.
It would be worth a shot. I'm willing to risk the consequences of striking down stupid laws. But first let's work on unconstitutional laws.
Yes.
Does it have to end?
Libertarians, always trying to bring Somalian roads to America.
I don't think "Once we get rid of all the stupid laws, all that's left is Somalia." is exactly the message you think it is.
Seems like an easy slam dunk for the commerce clause (which won't be stretched and twisted to fit for once.)
The commerce clause doesn't work in reverse psychology land....
Nothing in the commerce clause allows CA to dictate other State's on their psychotic whim. If they don't like the commerce nothing requires them to buy it.
CA Liberal psychopaths don't want out-of-state dinner??
Well, that certainly can happen......
You don't like our pigs don't buy them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
F'en Nazi's.
No more bacon or carnitas for California
Simple solution? Stop selling pork to California. There are plenty of countries that will buy it without the silly regulations. When they can’t get bacon, they’ll either change their mind, start producing their own (yeah, right) or eat more fake, plant-based crap. Either way, more bacon for sane people.
But California is big, and big is more money.
The big problem is how vertically integrated pork and poultry are. Most farmers are raising stock under contract to the big players like Tyson and Hormel, it isn't like ranching where we raise and sell stock to buyers, the companies literally own the animals you raise in pork and poultry. So they get to decide, and you pay for the new facilities if required, and I guarantee Tyson and Hormel aren't going to give up 13% of their sales voluntarily.
That's the best answer to the problem. Out of state producers and distributors can simply refuse to sell pork products into Cali.
let them eat soy.
Animal Rights:
You have the right to be tasty....
If the Supreme Court fixes this, maybe they can save us from having to buy “CARB” (California Air Resources Board) compliment gas cans with the difficult to use nozzles
The Constitution doesn't vest Congress with the power to prescribe agricultural practices.
Unfortunately it hasn't stopped them from doing it.
I kinda think California will win this one, and pork producers loser. "Telling producers in other states what to do" and "telling producers in other states what to do if they want to sell in California" are two different things.
I think it could go either way. There's certainly plenty of ground to say that California can tell the rest of the country what they have to do to sell in CA. There's also a very strong case that CA can make CA producers disclose how their livestock is raised at the time of sale, but not how to raise them otherwise. You're free to build and sell your own car that is not emissions compliant. You just can't build thousands of them for everyone to drive all day, every day. The proposition seems to be overly broad and, as such, unenforceable.
And the producers can refuse to sell their products to California.
let them eat soy!
So school boards in California can force parents in New Hampshire to hand over all control of teaching materials to the schools as well as simply hand over their children to the state.
Right?
Not following. If I were a textbook producer, I would avoid California altogether.
Once voters have forfeited their sovereign by voting, i.e., delegating to elite authoritarian rulers, no limits on that power exist, practically, except to stop voting, stop creating masters and depending on their self control, self limiting, selflessness. That is futile. Once sovereignty is lost, it is difficult to regain, psychologically and politically. It is impossible if force is assumed to trump reason, rights, choice. Force in society is destructive, disorderly, immoral, and widely accepted as a political necessity. It leads to chaos. But how can debate, reason, defeat the politics of force? How can. rationality defeat irrationality? How does reason argue and convince faith? Who will protect us from those who assume, have faith, they must use violence against us, "for the common good"?
The answer to this problem is rather simple: pork producers and distributors can simply refuse to sell to any market in California. That's it. No more ribs, no more pork butts, no more sausages no more ham. Raise your own but you do not have any authority over what producers in other states can and cannot do. period.
No matter what the liberal progressives believe, they do not have any such authority over others.
Boycotting California won't be much of a big deal and it will simply mean there will be more pork products for the rest of us which means the prices will decline some.
So go ahead Cali, your infatuation with yourselves and your narcissism will only create more problems.
Enjoy your soy.