Animal-Rights Laws Are Coming Back To Bite California and Massachusetts Voters
State food laws shouldn't apply to producers and consumers across state lines.

Two state animal-rights laws that took effect this weekend are already hurting consumers and the farmers, restaurateurs, and grocers who supply their food.
In California, Proposition 12, a ballot measure adopted by nearly two-thirds of state voters in 2018, now requires livestock enclosures to be large enough that animals such as chickens and pigs have enough room to lie down, turn around, and spread their wings. The law—which, as Vox explained in August, expanded on earlier California animal-rights laws targeting livestock enclosures—includes fines and possible jail time for violators.
Pork producers in particular fear the rules, at least in part because, welp, the state's agriculture department is somehow still developing them even as the law takes effect. Those same pork producers have joined with other businesses hurt by the law—including grocers and restaurateurs—in an effort to overturn or delay it, The New York Times reported last month.
The lawsuit, one of several filed seeking to overturn the California law, cites "a 'disconnect' between the bill approved by voters three years ago and the way the state is carrying it out[, which] will cause compliance chaos for all affected industries, especially the pork supply chain, which it says will face 'substantial disruptions,' potentially including an abrupt stop to pork sales," the Times report details.
As the Times also notes, Californians eat a lot of pork—around one in every seven pounds of all pork consumed by Americans every year—but raise relatively few hogs. While that means this California law theoretically should impact a small number of farmers, that's not the case at all.
"The requirements of Proposition 12 apply to covered products sold in the state, irrespective of whether the products originate from covered animals raised on farms within or outside of California," a newly posted state FAQ on Prop 12 details (emphasis mine). "For example, a breeding pig confined in another state must be housed in compliance with Proposition 12 if her offspring will be used for purposes of covered pork products sold in California for human consumption."
Terrible California food laws such as Prop 12 have an outsized impact around the country, I explained in a 2010 Chapman University Law Review article, The "California Effect" & the Future of American Food: How California's Growing Crackdown on Food & Agriculture Harms the State & the Nation. That's because laws passed in California impact all Americans in other states in ways laws passed in other states do not. The impact of California's laws is a function of the state's massive population and political and economic clout on the one hand and the fact many of these laws—including Prop 12 and California's foie gras ban—seek to regulate commerce in other states and countries. That's unconstitutional. Worse still, these lousy and unconstitutional California laws often inspire equally nefarious laws in other states—the "California effect" my article discusses. (Notably, that article has been cited in at least one lawsuit challenging Prop 12.)
All this brings us to Massachusetts, where voters, inspired by California's pre-Prop 12 animal-rights restrictions, adopted a ballot measure on livestock enclosures in 2016. Lawmakers only eventually realized the law might, er, imperil Massachusetts's food economy during a time of already rampant food inflation, so last week, just days before the law was set to take effect, they were forced to amend it.
"Without legislative action, eggs born of hens that have less than 1.5 square feet of space could not be sold in the state," the Boston Globe reported last week. "It's a standard industry leaders warn is strict enough to effectively destroy the market: Up to 90 percent of the eggs currently being supplied to Massachusetts will disappear from shelves, they said, unless the Legislature changed the standard slated to go in effect in January."
May voters (or lawmakers) in any one state—whether Massachusetts, California, Iowa, or Florida—dictate how farmers in other states raise livestock? No. That's why a federal court should strike down the unconstitutional and unworkable California and Massachusetts laws without further delay. Perhaps a better question is this: Can the U.S. Constitution save California and Massachusetts voters from themselves? The national food economy may depend on it.
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Farmers should just stop selling their products to California and Massachusetts. Those voters need to live under the laws they supported. It's only fair. People of other states should not have to rescue them from their stupidity by changing the way they grow their product.
So, do you think one in seven pork producers should just go out of business?
No, just Nancy Pelosi would be enough for me.
She consumes pork, she doesn't produce it.
She consumes pork, she doesn't produce it.
That depends on what the meaning of "pork" is.
Ewwww
Take it easy. Geezer presumqbly means pork-barrel spending. (At least I hope so. I would Mrs. Howell, but never Nancy Lugosi.)
Can you imagine the smell?
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Yeah, pork barrel spending really stinks.
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When was the last time you read one of the bills that she pushed on the American people?
You have to pass it so you can read it...
Well, meddling statists could always find yet ANOTHER way to band-aid what they've broken, with yet MORE expansion of Government Almighty. For example, all non-Californicated folks could be FORCED to buy up the excess pork! Let's pork out on forced-pork-eating! Maybe they will force-feed us, put rubber bands around our necks, and turn our livers into Soylent Green foie gras!
Bacon Subsidies for Floridians!!!
Posts like this are rare, but they are why I haven't muted Sqrlsy.
I promise to eat more pork and eggs to make up for any losses farmers face.
I appreciate your valiant efforts, which MIGHT achieve the intended results, if you're joined by a few (?) hundreds of thousands of others...
If'n ye are gonna tackle the whole thing "Lone Ranger" style... Ya might end up with a lot of... egg on your face!
(Insert courtesy laugh or courtesy groan here.)
I will assist in this most patriotic endeavor.
A 4 egg omelet and a half pound of bacon for breakfast every day.
(and when they admit me to the hospital, it will NOT be for the Communist Chinese Virus!)
No, they'll just sell pork in other states. The market is there.
That would require lowering prices to boost demand. The end result is the same: pork producers have to cut production and profits by 15%, and some will go out of business.
The demand is there, maybe you haven't noticed that the inflation that doesn't exist has hit pork very hard.
Let CA eat the avocados, bring us the pig.
Given the fact that pork has recently increased about 30-40% [prolly cuz covid or lack of labor], a decrease in price would be welcome. 2 years ago I was buying pork butts for $1.27 [now 2.39] and bacon for $4 [now 7.50], fuck California. Let them eat their swine politicians. Dumbasses just vote for shit because it sounds so spiffy and progressive without a flipping thought about the inevitable consequences. This is why they are paying $5 for a gallon of gas.
Sounds good. We had bacon this morning, and I’m cooking ground pork for tacos right now.
The rest of the nation will just have to eat more pork.
There are a lot of people in California who eat carnitas in burritos, machaca con huevos, tacos, and enchiladas. Add in those who like char shu bao or pork fried rice, and it makes for a huge market for pork in the state.
Of course, smuggling of pork across state lines from Oregon, Nevada, or Arizona is always an option. Refrigerated trucks running dark across mountain roads to avoid state laws.
And thus more Latinos might decide that Progressive Democrats suck. A Festival del Cerdo might be a fun campaign event for moderate and conservative candidates.
Filipinos too! Don’t come between a Pinoy and his adobo or lichon!
Doesn't California have those agricultural products inspection Stations? Like their own state border patrol.
They haven't been active im over a decade.
Not even remotely true.
They do. Some of them are quite a few miles in from the border, not always open, and possible to avoid.
Yeah, and the ones that are still alive are on a map. So with GPS, the only reason you should get caught is if you're an idiot.
"There are a lot of people in California who eat carnitas in burritos, machaca con huevos, tacos, and enchiladas."
But that's all sh*t food... How about sauerbraten, polska sausage, porchetta, pork souvlaki, schnitzel, etc. Oh yeah, I forgot. Crapifornians don't know anything other than mexican crap...
As with sex, it's not either/or for me, but both/and.
If you don't want Mexican pork, I'll have yours for breakfast, plus Euro pork for lunch and Korean or Southern American Barbecue for supper.
And a sow in bed?
Mmmmm...BBWs!
I'm not sure there are seven pork producers left in the country. Factory farming has made most farmers into sub-contractors. You don't just decide you're going to start producing pigs or chickens or broccoli or apples without a contract for somebody to buy them, and the supply of buyers has dwindled to just a few big corporations and they set the conditions for food production. ConAgra, ADM, JBS, Tyson, Smithfield, Purdue, Kraft/Heinz, Campbells - where else you gonna sell 400 tons of tomatoes or 12,000 chickens? A roadside fruit stand?
I wouldn't sell 12000 chickens from a roadside fruit stand. It would be a road side chicken stand
Would it have two doors or four?
Dunno about Cali but there are small scale meat and produce producers here as profitable businesses. Some work with local grocers, some through farmers markets and some fully independent. There are also hobby farms with roadside stands. Several Amish communities. One can buy spring piglets, raise them and have a local butcher process them when big enough. Another area beef producer does all that work where one can buy say a side of beef.
My Nephew did that once and had months upon months of prime ribs and other cuts of steak from his freezer. He loved every meal he got frok it!
He also bought a boar's head and ate from that. Dunno if I want food that looks at me and smiles, but the ability to buy mass quantities of any meat you want is indeed amazing
the ability to buy mass quantities of any meat you want is indeed amazing
the ability to safely store mass quantities of any meat you want is indeed amazing.
Refrigeration.
AKA Western Civilization. Alternatively White Supremacy
Well, really, the attempt to keep food at low temperatures goes back a long way and isn't unique to the West.
Obviously, Innuits, Laps, and other people living in icy regions could pack food in snow and ice, but others used cooling techniques as well.
The Chinese, the Romans, Egyptians, Jews in the Middle East, Persians, and African tribes all used various methods of ice harvesting and/or water evaporation to keep air, food, and drinks cool.
The chambers inside the Pyramids of Egypt were the proverbial "cool, dry place" that preserved grain for 2600 years and the grain still sprouted after all that time.
What made the West the best was the use of chemistry, pneumatics, mechinery, and electricity to produce refrigeration without importing ice from polluted sources and regardless of outside environmental temperature. This freed us from being at the mercy of growing seasons, from excess salt in preservation, and made meat and dairy use much more common.
Even this was fairly late in Western history. There are Americans still alive today who refer to refrigerators as "iceboxes," a throwback term for the sawdust-filled wooden boxes that kept blocks of ice brought by wagon to the home.
If CRT shills think that refrigeration, the boon of civilized people worldwide, is White Supremacist, they can go eat mossy steaks and get stoned on poisoned buttermilk.
We did this when I was a kid growing up in Missouri - 3 families would buy 2 baby steer to raise on one of our properties, and take it to the local butcher for processing after a couple of years. Split the cost 3 ways and you get a lot of great grass-fed beef for low cost, a little effort and patience.
Slaughter. Not processing.
Call it what it is. Honor the animals you eat by using the term that acknowledges their death, not a euphemism.
Fuck off word cop.
take it to the local butcher for processing
It is probable and possible that he only took it to the butcher for the processing having killed and disemboweled it themselves.
It's food and doesn't need to be honored - maybe the creator of the food or some other acknowledgement of joy at living... but not the food itself.
Depends on the regulations wherever you live. Unfortunately, where I live, the regs are stupid enough that you'd have to slaughter and butcher your own because there's just not enough local capacity. My brother and I considered buying piglets but the cost of getting them butchered made it not worth it.
Slaughtering and butchering aren't that big a deal and you'll be a pro after the first couple. People have been doing it since the caveman and they didn't have YouTube videos to walk you through the process. Get a map of the cuts and you're set.
Even if every piece doesn't turn out perfect, it's rather hard to fuck it up too bad once you bleed it and avoid carving into the bladder and intestine. Bury the latter, drop it in your neighbor's waste can or chuck it under the steps of your least favorite person.
I couldn't get a butcher here either. But I have processed a few deer and with the savings you make on raising your own piglets, the first one will buy you all the equipment you need, which is minimal. A nice chamber vac, a couple knives and a bone saw will get'r done.
a meat grinder, a vacuum sealer, scale, (pork or animal fat to add to game meat for the sausage and ground meat), a decent sized freezer, a hoist and tackle, a propane torch... Hmmmmmm.... there's more.
What is a chamber vac (and what is it used for)?
No. They won't. If it was enforced, the law will be rescinded or amended in short order. Even a few weeks of shortages will cause people to be upset enough to mess up everything.
Or, in the case of Massachussets, the grocery stores will be the one going out of business.
While I don't like the regulatory system of unelected bureaucrats writing most of our legal code, stuff like this does show its advantage. The people involved in writing the law are the ones who have to live with it. I've seen this difference personally between the state and federal. The Texas group is full of former inspectors who actually sat down with people. The feds are from academia or law school and many have never been on either side of an inspection in their lives. As a result, the Texas rules are much easier to comply with and are both less absurdly pedantic and have far less ambiguity for both regulator and regulated.
That statement assumes the market won't react. Yes, a few of the least-efficient pork producers will go out of business but nowhere near the one-in-seven implied by current consumption. For one thing, cutting off supply will probably drive even Californians to reconsider their policy. Will there be some market disruption during the delay between the supply cut-off and the regulatory reversal? Sure. But the more efficient producers will weather that change just like they survive, well, weather.
The volumes of product being sold in other states is down, but the market for it is still there. People are buying less and other things, but will definitely return when the prices come back to reasonable. Producers who have California as a big piece of their market may well have to get busy, but a plethora of product now available elsewhere will drop the price and the demand for the product will increase.
It would seem that until producers manage their operation to meet the new conditions the disruption (using CA and pork only) would be only about 14% (CA is 1 in 7 pounds), and some of that would be covered by compliant producers in CA and elsewhere.
A price cut for existing production until the CA non-compliant pigs are exhausted then produce and price for the new market (CA compliant or not) and predicted demand. Markets know how to do that.
CA gets what it wants, and so does everyone else.
Me and my smoker will be happy to do our part to help with the sweet, sweet pork surplus.
No, they will just sell their pork to China.
I have to say I don’t see the problem.
It seems like animal cruelty to raise an animal in a factory farm so small that it can’t even turn around.
Florida put the same law in our state constitution.
Animals have to be able to turn around in their enclosures.
We still have an apple supply of pork here in Florida after the law passed.
It seems that the six giant corporations that have all the factory farms have to slightly increase the size of the pens.
That may cost them millions of dollars.
I am no animal rights person, and I have no problem with factory farming.
But the animals should not be subjected to the cruelty of extremely small pens.
Just because YOU would not like to live in the equvalant of a broom closet does not mean pigs/chickens/calves consider it "cruelty". Projecting OUR standards onto animals is baseless and silly. I've seen pigs living in muddy pigyards, wallowing in the mud, eating from troughs, etc. I've also seen them raised on clean pasture. I know from experience that the pasture-raised pork tasts a whoe lot better, but that's an issue of diet not space. It does cost more to raise them in luxury, and for those who desire and can afford it, so what? Let them. But t mandate that every pig in the US must be treated like a pet is ridiculous.
The pens on question are called gestation pens and are only used for three weeks after gestation. They are designed the way they are so the piglets can nurse without the sow laying on them and smothering them (which is an actual common occurrence when the gestation pens are not used). They are not raised in these pens, and don't spend the majority of their lives in them. Learn about what is actually being discussed before opening your mouth.
NO.Let the ones in California continue to produce the "seshull" pigmeat the California pork-infested gummit demand. The rest of them can continue to produce for the rest of us. Maybe with the constant threat of market meddling from the California gummit out of the way, the other 49 states' producers can contnue to supply to the rest of us. Eggs, too. The reason eggs got so much more dear a few years back is once more because California dreamed up new rules about egg producing facilities' requriements. More costly for the producers, it trickles (floods?) downhill to we in every state who eat eggs.
Maybe in CA, but I live in a MA border state. I don't want those motherfuckers raiding my grocery store and cleaning out all the eggs, which is exactly what they'll do.
Vigilantes, my man, vigilantes.
Patrol the grocery store parking lots for MA plates, and call the MA cops each time they have eggs in the bag. MA cops get to asset forfeiture a lot of cars, and you get to keep the eggs.
My uncle is a retired MA state trooper. I could make this work.
I was just going to let the air out of their tires, but this is a way more sophisticated plan.
I believe this is already done when Massholes drive to NH for cheap alcohol.
MA cops get to asset forfeiture a lot of cars, and you get to keep the eggs.
Just to be clear... the eggs would go home with those asset-forfeiting thugs and their employers and you would not get to keep 'your' eggs.
You didn't build those eggs, man
when that happens the intelligent amongst the egg producers will simply up their production and sell all they want to. So what? The stores will adjust quickly to the increased demand and bring in more, increasing their standard stock levels to supply the incrased demand. If I were in the grocery businss there I'd be so happy I can now sell twice as many eggs as before. Let the MARKET sort itself out. That is the beauty of true enterprise.
For that matter, why are markets not already doing that prior to the harsh laws? Offer the small pen pork at one price the pound, offer the palace raised pampered pork at a different price the pound. That way the consumers are back in control. On WHAT BASIS do government think they must meddle in the millioins of face to fce transactions daily? Let ME decide the details of what I want to spend MY money on. My money, my tummy, my bidniss. Gummit butt OUTT
In California, Proposition 12, a ballot measure adopted by nearly two-thirds of state voters in 2018, now requires livestock enclosures to be large enough that animals such as chickens and pigs have enough room to lie down, turn around, and spread their wings.
So pigs fly? 😉
no but judging by Ca. politicians they do walk upright.
Sort of. There are a lot of scraped pig knuckles in Sacramento.
Politicians in California DO NOT walk upright........ they bow and scrape and grovel. And snort.
"So pigs fly?" I figured out that they did when I realized that Ted Kennedy wasn't commuting from DC to Massachusetts by car.
Hmm. This seems like a very poorly thought out, one-sided, article. I subscribe to reason because I like it's usually well thought out skepticism of government overreach. This article does NOT, imho, fit that mold. There are many many issues here besides the 'impact on producers outside the state'. Further, are you seriously saying no state can ever pass a law restricting what can be sold in the state, if even one instance of the class in question is produced outside the state?
But the producers won’t stop selling in CA (or the multiple other states that have passed similar laws). It’s too profitable. And they can continue to sell pork from animals near-immobilized in gestation crates to other states if they want. Companies like Hormel have been telling shareholders that they will be most profitable if they continue to sell into CA, and they have confirmed that they can segregate pork products.
But the producers won’t stop selling in CA (or the multiple other states that have passed similar laws). And they can continue to sell pork from animals near-immobilized in gestation crates to other states if they want. Companies like Hormel have been telling shareholders that they will be most profitable if they continue to sell into CA, and they have confirmed that they can segregate pork products.
Alas, California is too big a market. Pork producers would rather adjust than lose it.
I have been in business and I will tell you that businesses might grumble about costs, about taxes, about regulation. But they know what kills them is lack of customers. And when you have a huge market out there you'll do anything to keep it.
Nor should any moral person wish to consume products from a sentient animal caged their while life in a wire or concrete enclosure where they can't even turn around.
Let's pass it to see what's in it?
"...the state's agriculture department is somehow still developing them even as the law takes effect..."
I really don't know why Commiefornia bothers with democracy when the state powers simply overturn or ignore voters whenever they so choose. How's that gig work coming?
the gig work is NOT going.. at all. WHich is an YUUUUUGE part of why the seaports are so clogged.. independent truck drivers/owner operators can no longer work in that state so large portion of the formerly operting turcks are now parked, or operating in OTHER states.
Clear violation of the COmmrece Clause.
Seems like this is a no-brainer commerce clause lawsuit.
I thought the CCPA was a clear commerce-clause violation, but it has endured. I think it best if the price of pork just increases in CA so they can discover how regressive it is.
If any lawyers are reading, they can correct me. I believe the courts need a plaintiff to challenge the law before they can rule on it. Maybe the law has to be in effect before someone can challenge it? I’m not sure about that, but it would explain why there’s been no court action.
In any case, I hope there is a reason in law for federal courts to strike this down. I don’t live in California. I don’t vote in California. I resent being subject to their laws without suffrage.
It's gotta be hard to challenge the law when they're still developing the regulations - you can't argue it's unconstitutional to do X if you don't even know what X is yet!
California has to
pass the lawmanipulate the regulations to find out what is in the regulations.That is a problem. What you can argue is that citizens are unfairly targeted by expecting them to act under regulations that have not yet been invented, When you have to start deploying "reasonable man" theory.
Feds already dismissed a California egg regulation lawsuit.
https://www.calt.iastate.edu/article/federal-court-dismisses-challenge-california-egg-production-law
They continue to allow this shit.
It’s just a shell game
They just need to hatch another lawsuit.
No, they’re chicken.
For a lot or just a poultry amount?
Either way the Federal Court will just cry fowl again. But watch out, feds—We’ll be BOK!
I resent being subject to their laws
Maybe affected by the results of their laws, but certainly not subject to. You can produce pigs in a small an enclosure as you choose, you just cannot sell those pork products in their state.
You can buy pork products from anyone you choose. They may impact the price you receive and pay in the same way that you may decide not to sell in their market will affect them.
Now, if you refuse to sell gay pigs to the most vulnerable amongst us... well then thoughts and prayers to you as you are put through the process.
The plaintiffs currently challenging the law are pork trade groups. You can file a pre-enforcement challenge to a law if bringing a facial claim (e.g. the statute is unconstitutional on its face, in any application), as opposed to an as-applied challenge that depends on how it will be enforced. The courts have already denied a request for an emergency injunction if the law. One case was already dismissed, which dismissal was affirmed by the court of appeals. A request for Supreme Court review is pending. Multiple laws just like this (banning sale of a product based on how it is made, from shark fin soup to products containing fetal tissue) have been upheld against the same legal challenge brought here.
Regressive isn't the half of it as this 2005 study PDF shows not only do poorer people eat more pork (table 3, page 7) but so do black and other races (table 4, page 8). I was a bit surprised to see hispanic folk actually consumed the least amount of pork.
Have you ever seen a bag of potato chips? It says approved by the PA Dept of Agriculture. Why that? Because PA will not allow food to be sold that does not comply with their standards.
In other words, that ship has sailed.
Wrong, the commerce clause is a catchall to ensure that all legislation created by the government is constitutional. At least that the progressives reading of it
Like for many issues, voters are both clueless and selfish. I would bet the farm (ha!) that most Californians who supported Prop 12 either did not eat meat (and probably think others should not) or just thought the rules sounded "nice" (but could not project the impacts on supply and prices).
I think of the first group as a sort of inverse Sinclair, since supporting the law costs them nothing, and the second group as just stupid.
This dovetails nicely with yesterday's article about champagne socialists. These kinds of stupid rules are ALWAYS made by people who won't be adversely affected by the consequences. They either don't eat meat, or can afford to absorb the additional cost the rules produce. It's one of those luxury ideologies for rich liberals who don't need to worry about finding a source of cheap protein for their families. They don't think about the impact on the poor, only the impact on their egos.
people need to as the sowell question: "and then what?" think about the consequences of a given policy or action. but that is asking too much because most people lack any critical thinking skills. this is a perfect example why most people should not be voting.
Repeal the 19th is the answer to that.
most sheeple in Ca are seduced by the glowing terms as written by the Attry Gen. on the ballot so as to make the sheeple, who do not read the bills, think there are no side effects to passing the bills. They only see the headlines on the ballot.
It's really weird to categorize something as "selfish" if it benefits someone other than you. Animal welfare isn't an issue where two people have different preferences and need to learn to accommodate each other, like picking what kind of pizzas to order at a party. It's a moral issue like crime or abortion.
If you think that inflicting large amount of pain on animals is morally wrong, then you are morally obligated to stop people from doing it. If it makes meat more expensive that's beside the point. It would be like someone in the antebellum USA saying it's selfish to be an abolitionist because some families need cheap cotton clothes. If you don't think hurting animals is wrong, then you have no such obligation.
It's possible to have compromise between such views, but it is a pragmatic compromise, like how Britain gradually abolished slavery to avoid conflict. This isn't a case of people selfishly putting their personal preferences over others. It is a case of people doing what they think is right, and other people disagreeing with them.
With that glaring spelling error in your handle, nobody will ever take you seriously.
It would be like
No it would not. One are people, the other is food.
Put what you want in your mouth and leave the rest of us alone.
Yes. Actually reading a lot of those comments brings back the arguments in England that we like sugar and for that we need slavery and the slave trade. "Why deprive people of sugar?"
There is a reason why there is a huge surge of vegetarianism and veganism. The moral revulsion about what happens in factory farms is behind all those new tofu recipes. And where there is a market there will be producers.
(Hint about tofu: It may be bland and tasteless but factory chicken is also tasteless. Add enough sauce to either and they are both delicious)
It would be amusing to reread the ballot issue title again. Netchy it was written to snooker the knee-jerk jerks who don't bother to look beneath the surface to see what the dig dress might be covereing. Most folks don't even bother to READ the text of the pro-con ballot arguments, only the title. Of COURSE I want animals to be " happier". YES. Never hit them that the price of pork, eggs, shellfish,veal, might increase significantly once this measure passes.
But MY beef is that this measure will affect the price of pigmeat in MY state, because most larger producers will now have to invest massive amounts of money to meet the California "SPAYshull" requriements. Thus the price of MY pork goes up. What I've been eating is just fine with me. It still hurts that they did the same thing with eggs, and producers nationwide invested billions into modifying their production facilities to be able to sell eggs into California. The same facility produces for nationwide distribution, so MY cost went up too.
So your price of pork will go up because the producers have to satistfy their largest market. This is what happens when you are not a big market.
I was very disappointed too when Avon discontinued my favorite fragance because not enough peoplle bought t.... Such are the vagaries of the market.
Globe & Mail editorial - Canada must prepare for US fascist dictatorship.
By 2025, American democracy could collapse, causing extreme domestic political instability, including widespread civil violence. By 2030, if not sooner, the country could be governed by a right-wing dictatorship.
We mustn’t dismiss these possibilities just because they seem ludicrous or too horrible to imagine. In 2014, the suggestion that Donald Trump would become president would also have struck nearly everyone as absurd. But today we live in a world where the absurd regularly becomes real and the horrible commonplace.
Leading American academics are now actively addressing the prospect of a fatal weakening of U.S. democracy.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-the-american-polity-is-cracked-and-might-collapse-canada-must-prepare/
Canada is well ahead of the USA on the Freedom Index.
Why do you think trump would be a Facist dictator? He already refused to nationalize industries, and refused Gov dictating private companies.
Like most conservatives you don't know the difference between fascism and socialism.
Fascism in a POLITICAL system, characterized by a cult leader, hatred of democracy, racial, religious, and ethnic supremacy, nationalism, glorification of the past, and militarism.
IOW, Trumpism.
My political leanings have no bearing on the question which you didn't answer other than a wordy orange man bad
Fascism is state control of private industry, but I will try it your way
Like most retarded pedofiles, you favor the progressives fascism because you want them to be able to dictate every aspect of people lives, and they are now pushing for normalizing pedos like yourself
Fascism is state control of private industry, but I will try it your way
A complete lie. You are a good little QAnon cult member.
I'm sorry that QAnon has developed time travel and retroactively changed my high school government textbook decades ago. Seriously, that is the definition.
In that case, the control of big tech and media companies by powerful members of the Democratic party (and vice-versa) would be better fit the definition of fascism. The manipulation of the 2020 vote, which was bragged about in Time Magazine seems to be far more of an attack on democracy than a single protest that got out of hand and backfired spectacularly.
Fascism is an ECONOMIC system . If got yourself out of an asshole, you might know this.
No no no. The modern definition of "fascism" is "people with political views that I don't like". That's basically it.
fascism
NOUN
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.
Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.
Sounds like governments with draconian responses to covid.
Even with your definition how is that trump? He didn't send the fbi after opposition media, he didn't falsify evidence to go after political opponents, he didn't regiment industry (also known as nationalization). The only thing that could be concidered Facist is the eviction moratorium. Once again you don't address the question.
Are you kidding?
Donald "free press is the enemy of the people" Trump?
Make America Great Again protectionist Fatherland first?
Attacking member of his party for no Loyalty? Attacking/Fixing elections? Demanding that election officials overturn results?
Demonizing minorities and rapists and drug addicts?
Soft Fascist for sure.
He didn't say the free press is the enemy of the people, he said corpate leftward media is the enemy of the people, and he is right about that. But my question stands who at CNN msnbc wapost nyt etc did trump send the fbi or DoJ after?
he said corpate leftward media is the enemy of the people, and he is right about that.
No, it was the press that didn't suck his dick that was the "enemy of the people". In the rare occasion when Fox decided to object to something he did, Trump had no qualms going after them too, and no one would confuse Fox with "leftward".
Trump's not a fascist, he's just a narcissistic demagogue.
What election did trump rig? You donot live in reality
"I just want to find 11,780 votes"
It’s especially fucked when you use actual quotation marks when lying about what people say.
Quotes are for when you use someone’s actual words, you slimy pedophile.
Remember, turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a TDS-addled asshole and pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Trump said mean words.
However, the FBI just last month raided Project Veritas and from best evidence, leaked confidential information to their direct competitor. Multiple companies did everything they could to shut down the communications of the New York Post over a story they ran exposing our now-president's naked corruption before the election.
Actions speak louder than words. Trump yelled. Biden and crew are acting to hinder or shut down opposition media.
The pedo doesn’t care. He’s only here to lie for the left.
Perhaps Pluggo is kidding.
Well, when you lie by omission about what actually happened in those two cases, then sure, it all sounds like evil fascism, doesn't it?
Says the expert on lying.
What did he omit that makes those actions ok?
How dare he demonize rapists!
How cute. The definition changed just a few years ago so leftists like shrike could use it incorrectly without shame.
2017. When leftists changed words because they are idiots.
https://dailycaller.com/2017/02/04/google-redefines-the-word-fascism-to-smear-conservatives-protect-liberal-rioters/
They also tried changing the definition of racism.
Here isnthebchange to the definition of racism.
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/matt-margolis/2020/06/10/merriam-webster-to-make-orwellian-update-to-the-definition-of-racism-n513370
So the idiotic shrike is literally using left wing ideology when he claims he isnt. Hilarious.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a TDS=addled asshole and pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
what dictionary did yu find THIS ridiculous bit of poppycock wihtin?
Fascism has been defined as it was above, government control of private means of production' for somewhere around a hundred years. Dup your liberal rewrites of truth. Remember, Orwell's 1984 made much of the redefintion of words. Just what YOU are doing.
It is amazing how consistently wrong and idiotic you are. No that is not the definition of fascism.
Well, when you start with the wrong definition...
Fascism doesn't require racial/ethnic supremacy. (In fact, it was only a feature of Naziism, which married ethno-nationalism to fascism). It wasn't particularly a feature of fascism proper in Italy, or fascism in Spain or Argentina. It's not particularly clear to me that any fascism except Naziism was particularly into glorification of the past.
Fascists think democracy is weak, but what they really hate is communism. (It wasn't democrats who were carted off to Hitler's internment camps first, it was communists).
I'll give you militarism. But that stems from the fact that fascism is a type of authoritarianism. (Similarly, 'cult leader'. I'll note that most communist regimes also have similar cults of personality centered around their leaders).
What makes fascism distinct from other isms is that it expects industry to be operated for the good of the nation-state (as opposed to for the good of the workers or some other class conception). Fascism may leave the means of production *nominally* private, but industry which doesn't answer to the state will quickly find itself under new management.
In the end, the only true significant difference between a communist dictatorship and a fascist one is whether you define your (at least officially) favored group by class or nationality (not generally to be confused with race/ethnicity). Communism is class-based internationalist socialism. Fascism is nationalist socialism. Both are equally enemies of liberty.
Good star. U R the only person on this site who correctly defines fascism. It is a collectivist - hence leftist - system.
Collectivism is not inherently leftist. Nationalism is also a type of collectivism that the right is quite enamored with of late. Anything that puts the collective ahead of the individual is collectivist, whether it is left-wing or right-wing.
(In fact, it was only a feature of Naziism, which married ethno-nationalism to fascism)
This was definitely a bug, not feature.
So you're calling Obama a Fascist?
Obamacare is about as purely fascist as any law ever in the US.
Pure fascism isn't about law. The courts were a bad joke under Hitler. Pure fascism is all about extra legal actions like Crystal Night or WWiI.
The only Canadian thing I care about is Letterkenney.
Try the poutine.
Okay. So I care about two Canadian things.
What about mothers lament
Cronut doesn't love us anymore. He says our cooking sucks. We don't know what to do anymore, Kuckland.
Maybe Canada needs to lose some of this Covid weight. So we can fit in our old jeans.
Mother's Lament is so awesome, I just assumed he was American.
To classy for Trailer Park Boys?
liquor and whores is the jam!
Oh. My. God. I'm literally shaking right now. The threat of fascism is more terrifying than I realized.
Therefore in order to preserve this country's sacred institutions, we must listen to our progressive #Resistance allies and abolish the Senate, abolish the Electoral College, and expand the Supreme Court by at least 4 justices.
Additionally, our Big Tech allies should be more aggressive about banning people. I would add "inflation is a legitimate issue" and "Drumpf really beat Clinton in 2016" to the list of Russian disinformation that can get users kicked off social media if they repeat it.
#Resist
1. That's an opinion piece. It's not even close to being Canada's view on what's happening.
The Globe and Mail also published opinion pieces favorable to Trump. Would you like me to link them for you Buttplug?
2. The author, Thomas Homer-Dixon, is an actual, honest-to-goodness socialist who campaigns for the New Democratic Party, which is an actual, honest-to-goodness socialist party.
Canadian's think he's a clown who rants that we are an evil, racist petro-state, like Russia and the Saudis.
So why are you dragging literal socialist agitprop onto an ostensibly libertarian website?
3. Canada ranks higher on the Freedom Index because your Blue states are now full-blown fascist, and your press is so beholden to the Democratic Party it would make 1950's Pravda blush.
Canada didn't get better, it got worse. But it didn't plummet near as bad as DC and the left coast.
It is interesting how far Lester Pierson and Pierre Eliot Trudeau were able to move the Liberal Party of Wilfred Laurier, William Lyon Mackenzie-King and Louis St. Laurent towards the left.
The 1930s depression was hard in Canada but not nearly as bad as in the USA. In Canada it was the Conservative government of RB Bennet that advocated the kind of Keysianism "New Deal" policies that mimicked those of US President FDR. Mackenzie-King adopted a more laissez-faire approach and for better or worse, was able to stay in office while Bennet was largely mocked as a failure.
Well into the 1970s it was easier to start a business in Canada than in the USA. This, largely due to the in ability of vested interest in occupations to restrict entry into trades through the fiction of "Professional Licensing".
So the Gloat and Wail is worried about fascism in "the States", eh? Maybe they should look more inward.
Odd, ain't it, that it's never actually the various loudmouthed yahoos and rednecks that the open American society allows free voice are never able to introduce fascism as coherent government policy? It takes Eurotrash (and their Europhile followers in North America) to actually bring about the kind of total societal control that fascists crave.
This law is great for boutique food shops - like they have in Europe! - not so great for people who don't like paying $15 for a pork chop. But ask any legislator what their favorite thing is about shopping at Whole Foods and I'm sure they'll tell you. They don't shop at Feed Lot Groceries, the Feed Lot doesn't carry their favorite brand of artisanal artichoke dip. Or any brand of artichoke dip for that matter, because the people who shop at the Feed Lot can't afford that shit.
The poors can just fucking starve.
Let them eat cake
'This law is great for boutique food shops "
This law is even better for Californian farmers who already provide spacious enclosures for the animals they raise.
And as for Feed Lot, if they want to cater to wealthy customers, they should start by stocking food they are likely to buy.
Right? The peasants really should have thought of all this before they decided to become peasants.
Real peasants grow their own food.
If commie creeps allow it.
Nah. They’d rather sit their fat asses on the barcalounger watching sportsball, Netflix or some talent show.
SOYLENT GREEN COUNTRY STYLE IS PEASANTS!
Real peasants grow their own food on the small plot next to their house while the communal farm withers. As I observed in communist Czechoslovakia and E Germany.
F collectivists.
"This law is even better for Californian farmers who already provide spacious enclosures for the animals they raise."
How? They aren't being affected by this, it only hurts those who lack space to raise their farm animals.
"And as for Feed Lot, if they want to cater to wealthy customers, they should start by stocking food they are likely to buy."
And lose money when those legislators don't go? Come on.
How? They aren't being affected by this, it only hurts those who lack space to raise their farm animals.
------
Making all those who do better off. Addition by subtraction.
"those who lack space to raise their farm animals."
AKA their less humane competitors. More space for animals means fewer animals raised. Fewer animals raised means less money for the inhumane farmers.
And higher food prices. Thanks asshole!
Extra space costs more money. The proposition shouldn't affect plant foods so much.
Thanks for the tip, commissar.
What can I say? People are becoming more sensitive to animal suffering. They're more sensitive to past injustices to their community. They're more sensitive to issues of sexual identity. More sensitive to perceived threats to personal privacy, safety and autonomy. That's the world we live in, comrade.
People are becoming more sensitive to animal suffering
Only in the upper tier of First World Countries. Your opinions have maybe a 1 or 2 percent agreement with the rest of the world which pretty much doesn't personalize its food.
They don't have time to fall in love with their food because what little food they see is quickly consumed. Take your fight to one of the many countries in the world with a GDP of $1 a day and see how long it is before you get stoned to death. And then eaten by the locals.
"Only in the upper tier of First World Countries. "
I think California qualifies as part of the upper tier of the First World Countries.
"They don't have time to fall in love with their food because what little food they see is quickly consumed."
Many of the poorest countries in the world voluntarily submit to restrictions in their diets. Tibetans don't eat dogs, Tajiks don't eat pigs. The idea that the poor of the world aren't subject to food taboos and dietary regimes is muddle headed.
"Take your fight to one of the many countries in the world with a GDP of $1 a day and see how long it is before you get stoned to death."
Look what happened when it was discovered that McDonald's was adulterating their 'vegetarian french fries' with beef products.
Trueman values the life of pigs over the lives of people who can't afford pastured pork.
The poor can eat bugs, I guess.
Our Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters manage to live healthy, prosperous lives tots devoid of pork products. They mean to bend self respecting white heterosexual males to their filthy eastern ways. The death camps await those who insist on eating the unclean flesh of cramped pigs.
healthy, prosperous lives
I take issue with your characterization of the lives of your brothers and sisters as 'healthy and prosperous' which any review of their circumstances will reveal as far less than optimum.
And most of their circumstances are the result of not eating pork (their culture).
Thanks for your response.
And not all pigs either—some are more equal than others literature was an Old Major of his which had a Snowball effect on his ideological worldview)
It is also great for farmers' markets. That's where I get my pork from local producers which are not affected by supply chain problems. And from farmer's markets you can get also the cheaper cuts that are not featured in grocery stores. Try getting a kidney, or a tongue or honeycomb tripe there.
Masshole legislators have egg on their faces. But just free range eggs.
Is that free range egg on their face or *ahem!* hair gel?
The yolks on them—but it’s the consumers taking a shellacking!
Unless they scrambled to NH to buy what they want.
isn't this a violation of interstate commerce laws somehow? is interstate commerce the fed's authority? how does ca have the authority to regulate the commerce of another state?
"how does ca have the authority to regulate the commerce of another state?"
Doesn't California already do this in many ways? I'm thinking of their strict auto emission laws which cover car made in other states.
There is a federal law allowing that, which should be overturned.
If Proposition 12 regulates interstate commerce, then so does California's handgun roster. The roster forbids the retail sale of handguns lacking certain features (microstamping, loaded chamber indicator, magazine safety). Gun manufacturers may sell grandfathered models in California. To do so, they must maintain old production lines and develop new ones for the newer models the rest of the nation purchases.
There's at least one legal challenge to the roster slowly winding its way through the courts, but as I remember it, the Commerce Clause isn't a lynchpin of the challenge. So I'm a little skeptical of Linnekin's claim that Proposition 12 is clearly unconstitutional.
Pennsylvania already does it. Why do potato chips have to be approved by the PA Dept. of Agriculture?
The commerce clause doesn’t say states can’t regulate their own economies. Which is what these laws do: regulate products sold in California. If the feds wanted to regulate this stuff under the commerce clause (e.g. ban such laws by states) they could. But they haven’t. So this author is wrong that these laws are unconstitutional.
The original purpose of the commerce clause was to prohibit states from inhibiting trade from other states.
Retractable commerce claws: We could all learn a thing or two from the leopard and other feline friends.
Yes! The Commerce Clause’s negative implications on state regulation operate to prevent one state from limiting what another state can legislate on within its borders. Indiana might choose to prohibit sale of pork products if they are from animals that are given *too much* space. It’s hard to see how there would be a rational basis for that law, but there’s no Commerce Clause problem with it. And if that law was enacted, the market would work out which policy ultimately succeeds,
Well, in this case the biggest market wins. Which is CA now.
Correct. And the author has been pushing this idea in multiple forums for years, but no court has ruled consistent with his position. States cannot regulate transaction la that occur wholly outside their borders. But they can regulate transactions within their borders, even ones that have significant effects on upstream production outside the state, so long as those effects are incidental to regulation of in-state conduct.
how does ca have the authority to regulate the commerce of another state?
See EPA emissions standards and Prop 65 Cancer Warnings.
Do you know how you can tell someone is from Crapifornia?... They'll tell you. They open conversations with that info like ANYBODY cares. The good thing is, at least from then on you know you're speaking to a moron. Here's another prime example of why Crapifornia sucks and the absolute sense of entitlement and egocentric mindset. Somehow they think they can impose their ridiculously necessary restrictions on other states? Idiots, just because you want to pay $12 a pound for pork doesn't mean the rest of the United States does. Citizens are fleeing the state like rats from a sinking ship because they have "propositioned" themselves into unsustainability. Unfortunately, they move to decent interior states and bring their stupidity with them. Look at Utah, Colorado, Idaho, and Arizona. They are rapidly DESTROYING those states by trying to introduce the asinine ideas and "laws" they ran away from.
A cartoon of the reality, which is that Californian has a wide variety of people with all kinds of political and other beliefs, AND those who have moved to red states are often moving there because they are conservative and want to live in a more conservative place.
Ban Almonds
I think the other states should band the sale of domestically produced almonds that are irrigated by any means other than the rain that falls on the ground around the tree.
They have to be pollinated by wild bees. No importation of almonds from trees pollinated by captive, enslaved bees.
That would create a lot of buzz.
A really sticky situation, to be sure.
Negotiators would need to sweeten the pot after combing through demands to avoid being stung by a bee labor shortage.
It's easy to wax philosophical about these things. I hope they don't just drone on.
They’re bound to bumble the whole thing
Stop beelaboring the point.
A stinging rebuttal.
They would go ape in the apiary!
Almomds are native to Iran, honey bees Europe. Almond trees don't need captive honey bees for pollenation.
Harvard’s ag program uses Africanized honey bees, even if they don’t meet the minimum requirements.
That's the buzz.
Oh honey, that’s just Asian appropriation! Harvard needs to get the molasses out!
Apian dammit!
No more wasps.
Except for the USDA inspectors (don’t let the white smocks fool you, they were yellow jackets underneath!)
Any U.S. bees flying to Iran would be held hostage, so then they would be captive.
We’d retaliate with Stinger missiles!
Give me back my Foie Gras fix!
When I saw "animal rights" in the context of California, I thought this was going to be an article about covid and lockdowns.
Nope. The animals must be free range; the people not so much.
There is no reason for the inhumane treatment of livestock other than to support multinational corporations and their desire to control all food sources. If you don't take a stand for something other than a balance sheet, why should I stand for you?
You purchase gas from nations that chop off people's heads. Your clothes are made in China.
If you want to close all debate for the sake of morality, you go down a slippery slope.
And because we get oil from nasty people we push for alternative energy sources.
And because China has a dismal record, we urge people to buy American.
See? No disconnect.
I don't think you know what the words 'inhumane' or 'livestock' mean. If you don't care enough to know what they mean or how to use them, why should I give a shit about anything else you have to say? Wedge a potato in your pork hole and solve the problem for both of us.
The poors can just fucking starve, then, I guess.
Surely there is a line, however? Is any manner of animal cruelty justifiable in the name of food?
Is any manner of animal cruelty justifiable in the name of food?
Food? No. Entertainment? Maybe. Entropy? Sure.
Even then, it's immaterial. Your pigs on your property? Do what you want with them as long as the sounds/smell/runoff is contained on your property (and, personally, even sound and smell are are on shaky ground).
"Do what you want with them"
At the moment, maybe. But the winds are changing. I think it was in Harvard Law Faculty that courses in the rights of animals were the most popular elective courses in gaining a law degree.
No they aren't or not in any way that doesn't end terribly for Harvard Law Faculty. It may seem like a good idea from this vantage to grant a reduced sentence to someone who accidentally kills 4 people with a tractor trailer while trying to lock up people for putting pigs in pens, but on the other side, it will as inevitably as the laws of thermodynamics dictate, look like the folly it is.
I'm not sure what you are driving at. What does the popularity of Harvard Law School's animal rights courses have to do with tractor trailer accidents or thermodynamics. The fact remains that people are becoming more sensitive to the suffering of animals. I doubt that anything we can do or say is going to change this. Adapt or die, it's the cruelest law of the universe.
I'm not sure what you are driving at.
That's because you've become so accustomed to feigning ignorance that you can't tell when you stop feigning.
Adapt or die, it's the cruelest law of the universe.
See, you understand that Harvard Law and Universal Law are not one and the same but, out of feigned or genuine stupidity, you fail to extrapolate. The Universe does not bend to the will of Harvard Law.
"The Universe does not bend to the will of Harvard Law."
Maybe not, but things change. It's the cruelest law of the Universe. Like it or not, people are becoming more sensitive to the suffering of animals.
Are you aware that meat for a long time was a luxury item and not a staple? That families were happy if they had meat once a week?
Why do you think that fava beans are know as the poor man's meat in Italy?
The current emphasis on meat as a staple is a historical anomaly.
Not to mention the disappearance of organ meat or cheaper cuts from the shelves.
And if you care so much about the poor how about raising the minimum wage?
Can't wait for the Elliot Ness style raids on blackmarket pork vendors.
No one would ever get convicted; the cops would eat all the evidence.
Wouldn’t that be cannibalism?
Most departments look the other way with that kind of cannibalism when it behooves them (the rules are a little fuzzy)
The boarish behavior of cops eating cops could be our sowvation.
Today, CDC is strengthening its recommendation on booster doses for individuals who are 18 years and older. Everyone ages 18 and older should get a booster shot either when they are 6 months after their initial Pfizer or Moderna series or 2 months after their initial J&J vaccine.
Two months... two... months.
The First course of leeches needs to be supplemented with... another course of leeches!
Why are you worried?
If the vaccines harm you, just sue the manufacturer.
Oh, wait, that is for all the other medicines. not the magic juice that absolutely, completely, keeps you from getting the Communist Chinese Virus.
Does it really matter that the adverse reactions are not reported or analyzed?
Two masks and three boosters for you!
There is a ton of attention paid to any adverse reactions from the COVID-19 vaccines. In multiple countries.
Again? What is your beef about this?
"State food laws shouldn't apply to producers and consumers across state lines." Too bad. The Pure Food Law that caused the 1907 Panic when it smuggled in prohibitionism did that. Thrilled, mystical bigots enacted the Prohibition Amendment, Volstead Act and Increased Penalties Act, and blam! Another Crash. In an effort to keep up the good work the 21st Amendment replaced the 18th with a "CRY FOR MOMMY" clause to let Federal SWAT teams leap into action if anyone brings a light beer across the wrong state line. Medieval superstition is nothing if not persistent.
"For example, a breeding pig confined in another state must be housed in compliance with Proposition 12 if her offspring will be used for purposes of covered pork products sold in California for human consumption."
Yeah, good luck with that.
For those who aren't aware, farrowing and gestation crates aren't just because farmers like building pens to put pigs in. Pigs, especially wild pigs, are vicious animals. They will attack and kill caregivers and each other. The risk to a caregivers and each other is lower for domesticated pigs but still present. Moreover pigs, again especially wild pigs, are filthy infectious animals. Brucellosis (which is rampant in wild pigs) is not a fun disease for pigs or people. Pregnant sows are both prone to violence due to discomfort and are immunologically vulnerable when giving birth. Same goes for newborn piglets. Farrowing crates empirically reduce injuries to sows as well as providing a cleaner birthing environment. The arguments against farrowing crates are pure hokum, proposing nothing but spiritual or moral payoffs for people who raise animals for slaughter by people who want to pretend that their pork springs to life on a styrofoam tray wrapped in plastic. To say we shouldn't have farrowing crates is akin to saying we shouldn't have foot stirrups on delivery beds or maternity wards. Farrowing crates aren't cheap, if they offered no benefits, nobody would use them.
Thanks for the facts but this law is about emotions.
Except that several pork producers have converted to group housing (I.e. Prop 12-compliant production) and the “viscous” pigs aren’t tearing each other apart. Reduced stocking densities also lead to reduced immunological vulnerability—to sows and offspring.
Yes there is nothing like being in a cramped space to spread out any infection to every creature in it.
A few years back there was a report of a virus that was killing poultry. It decimated a number of factory farms. But those farms raising free range chickens did not suffer from it. Easier to isolate the ones infected.
I wish that the insurance companies refused to pay for livestock that dies because of communicalbe disease when crowded conditions are a factor. Or raise their premiums astronomically.
Yes there is nothing like being in a cramped space to spread out any infection to every creature in it.
^What you say when you think women should give birth in the woods, the way Mother Nature intended.
I wish that the insurance companies refused to pay for livestock that dies because of communicalbe disease when crowded conditions are a factor. Or raise their premiums astronomically.
Wow! I thought Timshel was just ignorant/stupid about farming, but I don't think you know how farming *or* insurance works.
^What you say when you don't realize that what you're saying shows that you've never once separated a piglet from a sow.
There's no way for Californians to win here. If all pork producers comply, the millions they spent to overhaul their facilities will ultimately come out of the consumer's pockets.
And this being the pandemic, the public will be quicker to react to any news of shortages. Pork will fly off grocery shelves in CA soon enough.
O/T: Since we're nearing the one-year anniversary of the Jan. 6 riots, here's a good article on the status of the cases.
https://thehill.com/homenews/wire/587893-capitol-rioters-tears-remorse-dont-spare-them-from-jail
Seems like the cases are slowly working through the system. Not exactly what one would expect for supposed "political prisoners".
I am glad that there are at least some judges who are taking these cases quite seriously.
My favorite case so far is this one:
Anna Morgan-Lloyd, the first rioter to be sentenced, told Senior Judge Royce Lamberth in June that she was ashamed of the “savage display of violence” at the Capitol. A day later, however, the Indiana woman told Fox News host Laura Ingraham that people were “very polite” during the riot, that she saw “relaxed” police officers chatting with rioters and that she didn’t believe the Jan. 6 attack was an insurrection.
Her inconsistency didn’t escape Lamberth's notice. In a footnote to an order in another case, the judge said his “hopes have been recently dashed” when Morgan-Lloyd’s Fox interview “directly conflicted with the contrite statements that she made” to him.
Crocodile tears before the judge, then the friendly interview with Fox. Of course.
Thanks for defending fascism you fucking faggot.
No, you're the one defending fascism.
It's fucking hilarious how you don't consider that the judge was demanding lies and crocodile tears in order to lessen sentencing to be the problem in the same post in which you declaim they are not at all like political prisoners. It's almost like you are either a complete fucking moron or a lying sack of shit not fit to clean bathrooms with spit and a toothbrush.
I'm just glad that someone is thinking of the pigs and chickens.
Unfortunately no one is considering the crowded conditions that grain and other crops are grown in. A plant needs air and elbow room to be humanely grown, so some legislation is required to force decent living standards for agricultural plants.
/s
"Unfortunately no one is considering the crowded conditions that grain and other crops are grown in."
I don't think it's a relevant consideration. However, if it makes you feel any better (or you are looking for something else to whinge over) there are many who claim that monoculture of our crops is ethically questionable. Followers of Fukuoka Masanobu, (福岡 正信) for example.
The "/s" at the end of my post is meant to indicate it is sarcastic and not to be taken seriously.
Fukuoka was serious about his ideas and methods. He stressed ethical raising of crops by organic/no till methods. He was probably motivated in part by Buddhist ideas of karma, reaping what you sow: be kind to your food and your food will be kind to you.
Well, monoculture is not a good idea - it means that if your crop fails you lose EVERYTHING while if you have different crops they will not all fail at once. Also rotating crops with nitrogen fixing plants cuts on fertilizer costs. That was the problem with the antebellum South. They exhausted the soil with cotton and then had to expand other places - and they wanted to take their slaves to those new places to grow the cotton. And people in the North were so mean. They said "you are welcome, but your slaves stay in your state"
Also monoculture is a great way for blights to spread from plant to plant.
It's astounding how much you clearly project your thinking of yourself as Joe from Idiocracy while espousing both historically and agriculturally "Brawndo has what plants crave."
What is so idiotic about pointing out the drawbacks of monoculture?
Diversity is an evil plot to exterminate white heterosexual men. Or white heterosexual plants in this case.
I am a Trump voter and I raise beef cattle for food, but raising pigs and chickens as the commercial people do really bothers me. I understand that changing will increase food prices but I do not think that animals should pay for the cost of helping the poor with their having to live their lives in misery.
I also think that Calif has absolutely NO right to dictate to other states no matter how they do it.
I also am a gun owner, but I don't think YOU should have a gun.
Raise your pets anyway you want; get out of the way of people providing food to HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people.
get out of the way of people providing food to HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people.
Or stand in the way of hundreds of millions of well-fed, gun-owning people who crate and slaughter 200 lb. to 2 ton animals out of habit culturally. Stare each and every last one of them in the eye and tell them that Gaia is on your side as you try to slaughter them in the name of your cause. The choice to try is yours and we really don't care one way or the other.
Start with the habitual chicken slaughterers and work your way up.
O/T: I think we have a Nardz sighting.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/anti-vax-leader-traveling-country-with-guns-flamethrower-and-fake-badge-prepared-to-arrest-dem-governors
I would suspect the reason why so much pork is consumed in California is because of the large Hispanic and Asian population. Pork is a primary ingredient in both cultural cuisines. Both groups are also known for voting strongly Democrat Party. Perhaps when they can no longer eat their favorite meals they just might realize how the Democrats have been misleading them all along. Perhaps.
Perhaps when they can no longer eat their favorite meals they just might
migrate?
"Pork is a primary ingredient in both cultural cuisines."
Pork is not a 'primary ingredient in Asian cuisines.' It's almost entirely absent in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Sri Lanka, and many other Asian cultures.
Odd definition of Asian that you have there, but you go for it if you choose.
"Odd definition of Asian"
Mea culpa. Sri Lanka is actually an island, not part of continental Asia, unlike the other countries mentioned.
And here is the best he can do, eh. Israel and Saudi Arabia are "Asian" and Japan, Taiwan, and the Philippines are not.
Asia is a continent, and Israel and Saudi Arabia are part of it. And they aren't into eating pork. Get over it.
Bless your heart, I won't even attempt to stop you from beclowning yourself.
There are huge swaths of Asia where pork is not part of 'Asian cuisine.'
Yes, such as the Asian countries of Israel and Saudi Arabia, eh. But not the non-Asian countries of Japan, Taiwan, Philippines, and the island of Hong Kong. I know this is true because you told me so.
Yeah, "If I ignore the half of the population of Asia that consumes more pork than the rest of the world combined, then my assertion that pork isn't ubiquitous to Asian cuisine is soundly irrefutable."
Some ducks don't eat grain either. Maybe he's feigning stupidity and he can choose not to, maybe he can't. His choice to do so is immaterial to any rational person.
O/T: Interesting article about Smedley Butler, relevant on the upcoming anniversary of the Jan. 6 riots.
https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/plot-against-american-democracy-isn-150056652.html
Producers should say NO and withdraw from those markets. Then free market forces will take effect and drive up prices due to supply and demand. If you pass unrealistic laws then you should pay the price for these unrealistic laws.
Except that providing the more humane products to California is more profitable for them than choosing not to. And pork producers can serve both markets by providing pork from sows kept in group housing to one and pork from sows kept in gestation grates if they want to. It turns out that multiple major industry players have been touting their ability to segregate production, and the profitability of selling more humane products in California, to their shareholders.
how is it unrealistic to not torture animals? we treated our livestock humanly for tens of thousands of years!
https://atisang.com/blog/Persian-Newsletter/P295-green-marble.html
https://atisang.com/blog/Persian-Newsletter/P292-sang-divar.html
https://atisang.com/blog/Persian-Newsletter/P289-STONE-FACED.html
https://atisang.com/blog/Persian-Newsletter/P281-export-ston.html
https://b2n.ir/m39488
https://b2n.ir/t91812
https://b2n.ir/t46186
https://b2n.ir/h07263
https://b2n.ir/d71987
https://b2n.ir/a59071
https://atisang.com/shop/3269-night-marble/
https://b2n.ir/m74650
night-marble
https://b2n.ir/m54371
https://b2n.ir/759577
https://atisang.com/crystal
https://b2n.ir/s19365
crystal
https://b2n.ir/r95360
https://b2n.ir/b96510
stone
https://atisang.com/building-stone/
https://atisang.com/onyx-stone
building-stone
https://atisang.com/blog/Persian-Newsletter/P212-%D8%AA%D9%88%D9%84%DB%8C%D8%AF-%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%88%D8%A7%D8%B9-%D8%B3%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%AA-%D9%87%D8%A7%DB%8C-%D9%85%D8%B1%D9%85%D8%B1%DB%8C%D8%AA-%D8%B3%DB%8C%D9%84%DA%A9-%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%BE%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AF%D9%88%D8%B1-%D9%BE%D8%B1%D8%B4%DB%8C%D9%86-%D8%B3%DB%8C%D9%84%DA%A9.html
https://atisang.com/blog/Persian-Newsletter/P211-%D8%A2%D8%AA%DB%8C-%D8%A8%D8%B1%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%86-%D8%B3%D9%86%DA%AF-%D8%B3%D8%A7%D8%AE%D8%AA%D9%85%D8%A7%D9%86%DB%8C-%D9%85%D9%86%D8%AD%D8%B5%D8%B1%D8%A8%D9%87-%D9%81%D8%B1%D8%AF-%D8%AA%D9%88%D9%84%DB%8C%D8%AF-%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%AD%D8%B5%D8%A7%D8%B1%DB%8C-%DA%AF%D8%B1%D9%88%D9%87-%D8%A2%D8%AA%DB%8C-%D8%B3%D9%86%DA%AF.html
https://atisang.com/article/slab/
https://atisang.com/Granite/
https://atisang.com/blog/Persian-Newsletter/P303-gray_stons.html
https://atisang.com/blog/Persian-Newsletter/P302-attractive-suggestions-for-choosing-a-cabinet-stone.html
https://atisang.com/blog/Persian-Newsletter/P310-Property-stons-building.html
https://atisang.com/blog/Persian-Newsletter/P308-Where-to-buy-slab-stone.html
Clandestine Christian Pig Raising in Cairo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2FJxypm528
because that's what Nazi's do (National Socialists).
Serious question: I know secession is unlikely, but can states be exiled from the Union? CA making a strong case for us to kick them out.
Animal-Rights Laws Are Coming Back To Bite
California and Massachusetts VotersAll of UsFTFY
This is an easy fix. Just stop selling affected products in these states. Consumer rebellion would soon get the laws repealed and voila, problem fixed.
That way the voters get what they asked for good and hard.
Why can't California destroy itself without harming the rest of us?
The new lefty propped USA fad of democratic "National" Socialism instead of a Constitutional Union of Republican States. Which is motivated by a Conquer and Consume governmental ideology.
The left will never ever ever leave other states alone. They must consume them to survive like a virus.
Animals do not have rights.
you, hitler, and stalin have similar beliefs
Producers and distributors simply need to decide to stop supplying California for a while. See how long it takes.
This article (and the comments) serve as another reminder to me of why I do not identify a libertarian. Telling people that any kind of atrocity done to animals is OK (because "not human"), is going to be a tough sell. Animals should have an absolute right to be free of any kind of cruel treatment.
Eggs and chicken are so expensive in California. When I'm there I eat nothing but beef.
I supported Proposition 42, which makes it a crime to read Vogon poetry to livestock.
Animals have the right to be tasty.
Baked, boiled, broiled, roasted, broasted, deep fried, microwaved, fried, deep fried, grilled or smoked.
and humans only have the right to die...you think we're special because you're an arrogant human...and you're wrong. nearly 8 billion and most are vile (like you). You think you're being funny but no one but you is laughing...you're disgusting and proof why humans should all be eliminated
I hate humans...how can you possibly argue against the law!? I eat meat as I'm a human and I struggle with that...how can you not unless you're a psychopath! To require ethical treatment of our food is ethical and moral. It isn't an insane requirement for animals to be able to be comfortable before we kill them! Why don't you try spending your ENTIRE LIFE in a standing position where you can't even stretch! With nearly 8 BILLION humans, most being horrible, we should be farming them!
THINK with your brains, not with your belly or emotions. These laws were made for good reason. A state has the right to restrict certain products if those products do not comply with that state's own standards. Factory farms are living hell for the pigs and chickens raised there. Every once in a while Massachusetts and even California comes up with rational legislation. Allowing the sale of products not up to legal standards not only neutralizes the purpose of the law, but is also unfair to farmers in those states who must comply with the law.
Disclaimer: I have the same opinion about sneakers made by virtually slave labor in countries with lax worker welfare and environmental standards. If we live in a civilized society and want to make production as environmentally friendly and humane as we can, allowing importation of products not conforming to our own standards is both hypocritical and defeats the purpose.
Plus there is that issue of state's rights.