America's Divisions May Have Passed the Tipping Point
If we can’t learn to leave each other alone, the country may have a violent meltdown.
Have America's much-discussed political tensions reached a point of no return? Political tribalists who sort their lives along partisan lines and despise opponents have become regular features of national life. But now researchers say polarization can reach a "tipping point" at which external threats, such as pandemics, no longer drive people together but instead become further sources of strife that spiral out of control. Their warning comes as Americans seem poised to further escalate disagreements into open violence.
"We see this very disturbing pattern in which a shock brings people a little bit closer initially, but if polarization is too extreme, eventually the effects of a shared fate are swamped by the existing divisions and people become divided even on the shock issue," Boleslaw Szymanski of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute told Cornell University interviewers. Szymanski is a co-author of "Polarization and Tipping Points," published recently in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. He added: "If we reach that point, we cannot unite even in the face of war, climate change, pandemics, or other challenges to the survival of our society."
The authors of the paper wanted to know why the COVID-19 pandemic, rather than pushing Americans to cooperate on a common threat, instead became yet another reason for disagreement. They created a model to study the effects of party identity and political intolerance.
"We found that polarization increases incrementally only up to a point," according to Cornell's Michael Macy, who led the study. "Above this point, there is a sudden change in the very fabric of the institution, like the change from water to steam when the temperature exceeds the boiling point."
The result, according to the study, is "a hard-to-predict critical point beyond which polarization becomes unlikely to reverse."
Models aren't real life, of course. But the researchers were inspired by real-life developments—developments so concerning that the issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in which the paper was published was devoted to the dynamics of political polarization. After all, we live in a country in which people sort lifestyles, recreational preferences, and careers by partisan affiliation.
"Consider, also, the growing segregation in our places of work. The academy increasingly skews to the left, especially so in liberal arts departments and among staff. Cattle ranchers, loggers, dentists, and surgeons skew right," points out the University of Michigan's Scott Page in the same publication.
Such political sorting applies to the military, too, severely limiting its utility in the country's domestic disputes, no matter that some officeholders think that B-52s are the solution to political disagreements. Just two weeks ago, three anti-Trump retired Army generals warned that Americans shouldn't look to troops to suppress escalating political strife.
"The potential for a total breakdown of the chain of command along partisan lines — from the top of the chain to squad level — is significant should another insurrection occur," Paul Eaton, Antonio Taguba, and Steven Anderson wrote in the Washington Post. "Under such a scenario, it is not outlandish to say a military breakdown could lead to civil war."
"Civil war" sounds like an unlikely fate for an established democracy where the population's image of the concept is tied up in images of field armies in blue and gray uniforms. But no country is any more stable than the moment allows, and internal conflicts can be far messier than even the war that marked the mid-19th century.
"We actually know now that the two best predictors of whether violence is likely to happen are, whether a country is an anocracy, and that's a fancy term for a partial democracy, and whether ethnic entrepreneurs have emerged in a country that are using racial, religious, or ethnic divisions to try to gain political power," Professor Barbara Walter of the University of California at San Diego told CNN last week. "And the amazing thing about the United States is that both of these factors currently exist, and they have emerged at a surprisingly fast rate."
Walter serves on the CIA's Political Instability Task Force, which assesses the health of countries around the world. The task force isn't allowed to turn its gaze on its home country, but Walter did so on her own (she has a book on the topic coming out in January).
"The United States is pretty close to being at high risk of civil war," she concluded.
That said, and on a more positive note, just as the stability of a country isn't written in stone, neither is its descent into chaos. The authors of "Polarization and Tipping Points" emphasize that they "make no claims about the model's predictive accuracy." Likewise, retired generals Eaton, Taguba, and Anderson, as well as Walter can't know what is to come, they can only point to warning signs that have them concerned. We don't have to live up to the worst expectations.
While America's dominant political factions seem determined, like two kids in the back of a car, to poke and prod each other until they come to blows, the solution, as in that road trip to hell, might be to separate the parties without allowing either one the upper hand. Both the thuggish nationalism of Republicans and the elitist presumption of Democrats are authoritarian prescriptions best reserved for true believers, with the rest of us left to run our own lives as we please.
The election of Joe Biden to the presidency on promises of normalcy after the Trump years, promises which were promptly broken, indicates that Americans have some appetite for a less extreme and intrusive brand of governance. Unfortunately, 2020 was a lost opportunity to separate the feuding factions, and instead we traded one brand of overreach for another. Pushback against progressive excess in 2021's off-year elections looked like another attempt by the public to achieve a little balance, or at least to escape the ambitions of a faction that wants to transform society to suit its vision, other people's preferences be damned. The question is whether that pushback will be enough to avert a collapse into conflict.
"The process resembles a meltdown in a nuclear reactor," Cornell's Macy said of his tipping point research. "If the temperature goes critical, there is a runaway reaction that cannot be stopped. Our study shows that something very similar can happen in a 'political reactor.'"
If we're smart, the U.S. won't be the test case for that hypothesis. Assuming that Americans can learn to leave each other alone, we won't have to discover what it means to pass a national point of no return.
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We Koch / Reason libertarians need to continue supporting Democrats so they can preserve this country's sacred institutions by abolishing the Electoral College, abolishing the Senate, and expanding the Supreme Court by at least 4 justices.
#Resist
Never change, OBL.
Democracy is hanging by a thread.
Don't forget, Dems are also trying to Federalize elections.
Unless the leftist costal cities secede, and leave the rest of normal people alone, the secondAmerican Civil War is inevitable.
The Chinese, Russians and Iranians will supply the cities with food and ammo in order to prolong the conflict.
The result will be Free America in the heartland and Democratic Republic of America on the coasts.
The opening photo gives me an idea. Let's invite the left and right wing nut factions for some civil war cosplay, but give them live ammo.
Just require that they bring their own personal weapons.
I am willing to supply weapons, along with uniforms and megaphones. My hope is mutual slaughter.
The lefts plan is to use the army, which is why it is being purged of undesirables.
I actually believe that the Liberal Socialists want to force a Civil War. Then Biden can request peacekeepers from the UN. Chinese peacekeepers.
No, that's a convenient theory to prompt/excuse inaction.
Truth is they don't think people will stand up to them. They don't fear consequences because they expect there won't be any.
They will keep bullying unless they're popped in the face.
They're right. The people won't stand up to them. The idea of "patriots" with Daddy's shotgun forcing US armed forces and police to stand down is a ridiculous Hollywood fantasy. The government would only need to shoot a handful of "militia" members and the rest would wet their pants and go home.
Yeah, it's the left's ridiculous Hollywood fantasy, actually. Getting the right lined up in a neat formation that can be conveniently strafed. Nobody on the right thinks in those terms.
This is the Information Age. They can "strafe" you right in your house. No need to have them lined up.
It wouldn’t be a war, it would be a slaughter. Kyle Rittenhouse proved that. A whole violent mob, many armed against one armed teenager. Now imagine even a dozen older, experienced conservatives coordinating an attack and not holding back.
The left would be wiped off the map at an astounding pace.
The half-educated, superstitious bigots, who congregate in can't-keep-up backwaters (sticking with declining industries and dying towns against all evidence for decades, and losing their best to bright flight) and rely on their betters for capital, research, education, and national improvement, who have been getting stomped in the culture war for more than a half-century, who haven't stuck with or accomplished much of anything throughout their deplorable lives, are suddenly going to turn everything around and achieve victory in America?
Carry on, clingers. Your betters will let you know how far and how long, as usual.
The purple-haired communist non-binary Starbucks barista is going to actually impose its political will on someone who resists?
Trivia time - name the states that lost house seats because they lost people to cultural wastelands. You have three guesses!
Where can I find these enlightened individuals well versed in culture in cities like LA? I live here and the highlight of existence is near 5 dollars a gallon of gas and people who don't know how to drive.
CA would go bankrupt if the federal government didn't prop up the 1% that pays most of the taxes and other state didn't let it purchase water and power. Speaking of CA, if you guessed that it was one of the states that lost house seat, you are correct!
Asshole bigot copy/pastes the same retarded comment.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
The "half-educated, superstitious, backwater-congregating bigots" won big in Vietnam and Afghanistan.
Maybe we can make it a trifecta.
The rebels would be wiped off the map easily, by any means necessary. The US armed forces and police could easily mow down millions of "militia" hobbyists, and would. It would be a slaughter, but not the one you're thinking of.
You obviously know less than nothing about this subject.
You're obviously delusional.
No, you're stupid, .....Vern.
You ever heard of ASW and 4GW? (Rhetorical question, since we know you haven't, because you would have known better than to post what you did)
1 There aren't enough police to even try anything if things went south. Christopher Dorner - 1 man - ring a bell?
2 The instant the President ordered regular forces into LE operations, "IT" would be on.
But you keep believing in your ignorance....Vern.
Funny how those Vietnamese kicked America's ass or the Afgans with no air force, smart bombs, CIA, and Ivy League Generals. When you are occupied, the occupiers become the enemy and every insurgency in history has won. Yes millions of old M1 and M1 Garand along with shotguns and millions of AR-15's can take down a nuclear power.
The solution could be a national divorce. Red States could go back to the Articles of Confederation and keep the Bill of Rights. The Blue States can go all woke and create a federal dictatorship of elites with meaningless one party votes.
sorry I meant to say M1 and M1 Carbines. The CMP essentially gave away millions of M1 and M1 Carbines to the American people.
Our rulers didn't want to "win" any of those wars. They just wanted to drag them out as long as possible, make as much money as they could, and get out, regardless of the outcome. If they were fighting for their own lives against an insurrection on their own turf, they wouldn't fuck around.
Keep sucking that State cock, soy.
Non-sequitur.
No it isn't.....Vern.
You fit the description.
I mean, I guess it’s possible they go all Hunger Games and nuke Texas, but I seriously doubt they’ve got the stones to do it.
Couldn't work.
I live in a red county in a blue state. My county voted to 3 to 1 for Trump in 2020. So did all the counties bordering my county, and all the counties bordering them.
The fact is, there are no "blue states ". Just a few blue dots floating in a massive sea of red.
The divide is not regional as in " east vs west" or "north vs south ". It is "urban vs everyone else".
Like they did the Taliban, the Iraqi insurgency and the Viet Cong?
Have Alec Baldwin direct.
Arec is worthress!
https://youtu.be/udS6losK7Ts
As if they wouldn't bring live ammo already?
So you want the right wing nuts to slaughter the lefties? Good enough plan I suppose.
The first order of business. Shoot the libertarians dead.
The Independents will get the message.
Then both sides retire for some refreshments.
Both sides, as in two? I don't think so. Plan on 3 or 4 nations forming out of this, and not by state lines.
How can people even do Civil War battle reenactments now that the Confederate battle flag has been banned? And how historically accurate can they be nowadays, with every Confederate officer has to be referred to as General/Major/Captain Traitor, sir?
not that this has any direct bearing on your comment, but I once had a friend of viet descent who participated in civil war re enactments as a hobby....dont know why but I thought seeing him in a grey confederate uniform was hilarious
we already have 20 billon rounds Cupcake
The photo is deceptive, Wars just aren't fought that way now. Summer 2020 would be a lot closer to reality. Burning buildings and destroying infrastructure would be the norm. Nukes and missiles would be useless. The military would be kept busy trying to feed the cities, police over run with attacks. We have pasted the tipping point, it's already here and growing.
Concidering we have a multi tiered justice system with Democrat polititions able to break any law they want, followed by dnc Gov employees that get a slap on the writs, then blm/Marxist activists that get $0 bail for any of fence along with reduced sentancing, then regular criminals, the anybody supporting Republicans or freedom being denied basic human rights my question is why should I care if there's a civil war?
Given Tucille's vocal support of BLM and their riots and subsequent release (peaceful protest my ass), the only reason would be the left hasn't solidified generational control enough to ensure victory.
The cry of the "libertarian" writer: why won't you all just do what the noble Democrats demand.
Elitist libertarianism?
This.
The solution always seems to be to bend over and give the Davos crowd everything that they want.
It’s the libertarian way.
Big L. There are a lot of small ls. The party is fucked. Putting up an anti racist candidate after a bake that cake candidate was amazing.
Benedict donald broke almost every crime in the Constitution including both Emoluments by stealing $1.7 Billion, see THE BIG CHEAT How Donald Trump Fleeced America and Enriched Himself and His Family. Enjoy.
Weird you they couldn’t convict him with all that (fake) evidence.
Indeed, a never-ending parade of accusations, fabricated FISA warrants to support a investigatory deep dive, and congressional committees left and left. Yes, the evidence evaporated, the documents seem not to say what Mr. Schiff and Mr. Nadler claimed, and all the prosecutions evaporated. One might almost get the idea that it was all BS in the first place.
And at the end, unlike nearly every president before him, Donald Trump is worth less after being president than he was before. He really needs to get better at that enriching himself using government office thing. Perhaps lessons from Hillary? or Biden?
Walter serves on the CIA's Political Instability Task Force
So we know he can be ignored as the Cia is a useless incompetent group of idiots that missed every major regime change and terrorist attack, but I bet he knows alot about spying on us citizens in blatent disregard for the constitution
And that they've spent the last five years trying to pull their color revolution crap in the US.
They still know how to implement coups.
Walter serves on the CIA's Political Instability Task Force
Seems like his mission is going well.
I think we are definitely headed into a civil war. Right now, the battle lines are being drawn and everyone is storing up their snowballs behind their fort wall just waiting for the first volley to be thrown.
As soon as the "civil war" goes hot, it will be crushed by the military. That's when fascist takeover will be complete.
Founding American cultures, at least the ones that arrived since the 16th century, were based on some distinct goals and philosophies:
- Establish ideological utopia, with strict rules and enforced compliance
- Seek riches to plunder
- Conduct profitable trade
- Escape authority
All four themes continue today, but government can't abide the last one.
They can't do the second to last one eighter
It's our fault for refusing to bend over. We could have peace if we just compiled.
The shit will really hit the fan when one of the Red states uses new anti-voter laws to have their legislature overturn an election.
But when Gawd is on your side democracy don't mean shit. The Bible-Beating anti-vaccine shit-kickers are the real threat to the USA.
Babbies first political rhetoric.
Anti voter laws like the dnc sueing to have the green party removed from battleground states?
Or invalidating all of Sander's primary votes because they wanted a party insider.
Show us one person who has been denied the vote outside of committing a felony.
Far more then one in this article.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/07/is-america-a-democracy-if-so-why-does-it-deny-millions-the-vote
This article does not show one person who was denied the vote. Try again.
Of course it doesn't. I've yet to see an instance where Shrike and his pals have read beyond the headline of the links that they provide.
"This article does not show one person who was denied the vote. Try again."
George Floyd was denied the vote! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd
facepalm.jpg
And so was Ashli Babbitt! Will you be outraged for that too?
Not one example in there. Pure conjecture. I asked for one example.
In GA during the Abrams lawsuits they found one. When asked by the judge they weren't actually denied anything, they hadn't gone to the DMV.
Amazing how dumb leftists are.
Article fails to mention ONE person who has been denied or prevented from voting. Compare our sytem of open invitation to fraud to the EU, i.e. '...British citizens living in Northern Ireland, however, need to give a reason why they want to use postal voting....German courts, meanwhile, were less convinced and have since stopped efforts to introduce online-voting or computers at official polling places....Norway (and most EU countries) mandate that voters present a photo ID, including a “passport, driving license, or bank card that includes a photo,” to vote...Most developed countries ban absentee ballots unless the citizen is living abroad or require Photo-IDs to obtain those ballots. Even higher percentages of European Union or other European countries ban absentee for in country voters. ...'
"Article fails to mention ONE person who has been denied or prevented from voting."
A summary of WW II atrocities mentions 6 million murdered Jews... Without mentioning the name of a single one! Therefor, the Holocaust was fabricated, right?
Anne Frank. Better kick yourself you seem to be stuck on stupid again.
Yes, Anne Frank, as well as George Floyd, were prevented from voting, by power pigs who unjustly took their lives.
Kudos! A glittery star-sticker on your effort! (Not a Jewish star, though, in case that might trigger you).
George Floyd was Jewish?
Fats of Fury was an intelligent lifeform, in THIS universe, as we know it?
TDS-addled spastic asshole gets flagged.
And Anne Frank was old enough to vote? Even in Weimar Germany?
Start again, SQRLSY.
She COULD have gotten older, had she not been killed! AND had the NAZIs allowed honest votes (contrary to the wishes of Der TrumpfenFuhrer, of course, who accepts only "R" votes).
No but Sammy Davis, Jr was! (About as relevant as bringing the Holocaust into this…btw a very impressive project in Israel HAS compiled the names of millions of Holocaust victims)
https://www.yadvashem.org/yv/pdf-drupal/en/download/remembrance/names2.pdf
SQRLSY One is gonna have it hard responding to this. Well done, Utkonos.
Oh wow, the guardian. Lol
The left interprets any limit on government power as an assault on democracy. As such, they want to get rid of the Supreme Court and the Senate, since those institutions aren’t giving them what they want. And, this, they want to get rid of the constitution, since it establishes the senate and the courts.
But you don’t consider that a threat to the USA.
You’re worried someone might pray in school in front of you.
Those are screwed up priorities if you care about freedom.
Not government power in general, just their exercise of government power, they're fully behind any and all restrictions on others in that arena.
The government represents the Will of the People. If you oppose the government’s will, you oppose The People. Hence, Enemy of the People! C’mon, get with the program!
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a TDS-addled asshole and a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
"But now researchers say polarization can reach a "tipping point" at which external threats, such as pandemics, no longer drive people together but instead become further sources of strife that spiral out of control."
Just as planned.
1500 newspapers, 1100 magazines, 9000 radio stations, 1500 TV stations and 2400 publishers are run by just 6 companies.
They control 90% of everything Americans see and hear. BlackRock and Vanguard are the majority shareholders of all of them. Those 6 are actually owned by 2 companies.
Regulations have made it almost impossible to seriously challenge and compete against them.
Those numbers aren't some sort of conspiracy theory. They're fact.
These are the same 15,500 outlets that purposefully portray the working classes as bitter, god-bothering idiots who don't know what's good for them, vote against their interests and should submit to the rule of Top Men for their own sake.
If you want to know why the West (not just America) is so bitterly divided, look at the power structures who benefit from division and the political entities who've historically benefited from division rather than integration. Which political philosophy do they all ascribe to.
It's okay, Blackrock and vanguard also own Pfizer
THIS is why MarxistMammaryFuhrer DEMANDS that Government Almighty should nationalize the media!
(Rightwing Marxist Fascists can thus pussy-grab the libs, and the libs will NEVER think of pussy-grabbing the fascists right back!)
Nobody said that.
You're to stupid to troll here Sqrlscasmic. Go to Youtube or something. ===>
MarxistMammaryFuhrer is a liar who has CONSTANTLY shilled for tearing down Section 230 ("1A of the Internet Era"), so that SHE and HER Followers (as She, Queen of the Internet Cesspool, Leads Them into Battle!!!) can pussy-grab the enemy!
It is EXACTLY Anti-Christian! To see that, read https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/12/gospel-donald-trump-jr/621122/ The Gospel of Donald Trump Jr.
The former president’s son told a crowd that the teachings of Jesus have “gotten us nothing.”
Yet...
Meanwhile, HERE is what MarxistMammaryFuhrer REALLY knows about the Internet Era!
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/spice-girls-too-hot-to-handle-63901/
Spice Girls: Too Hot to Handle… From there:
“(Mel B is clearly not an expert on these matters. Afterward, she will point at the computer monitors and ask, over and over, “I want an Internet. Can I have one of these?”)”
So it seems that MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer is just like a Spice Girl… She wants an internet, but Amazon won’t let Her have one!
Fun factoid: Way before She got older and much uglier, MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer was a “Space-Cadet Spice Girl” named “Skanky Spice”! (And She is STILL doing “touch and goes” on the fashionista runway of reality, imagining Herself as Queen of the Echo Chambers!)
When Sqrlsy gets mad and flustered he resorts to posting reems of copypasta.
If you don't want to sprain your fingers scrolling past his retarded shitposts, simply press the spamflag. Reason doesn't actually deal with spam, so you won't get in trouble and it cleans up the thread for you.
Note that MarxistMammaryFuhrer does NOT deny Her Obvious Marxism!
Or just mute the shiteater already.
That doesn't work for MarxistMammaryFuhrer for the below reasons:
But NOOOO… QUEEN of the Internet cesspools feels that She MUST (instead of using the “mute” button) convince ALL of the “Cool Kids” the SQRLSY = cooties!!! The “mute” button “silences” me to Your Precious, Sensitive Eyes, Oh Queen… Are ye a pacifist? “Silence is violence” in this context? Or, far more likely… You get OFF on telling ALL of Your Endless Legions of Be-smitten Followers, that SQRLSY = cooties!!!
MarxistMammaryBahnFuhrer the Chthonic Cunt, Twat of Twits, does NOT deny that She imagines Her Royal Self as QUEEN of the Internet cesspools, keeping them CLEAN from the cooties of politically incorrect folks! Ego knows no bounds!
Muting doesn't give MammaryFuhrer the self-righteous pleasure of being Queen of the Internet cesspools, and bossing others around, and telling the other readers that SQRLSY isn't with the "Cool Kinds", caw-caw-caw! And the spamflag allows Her to fantasize about getting Reason.com to ban me as well. It is ALL about self-righteously bossing others around, ESPECIALLY those who have worked at being a decent and honest humanoid, MUCH harder than MammaryFuhrer has!
Same process as above folks.
Hey Mamma the Highly Esteemed, Expert Christian Theologian!
https://reason.com/2021/03/24/for-the-first-time-a-majority-of-republicans-support-same-sex-marriage/#comment-8822506
Have you figured out yet, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Many of us are waiting with bated breath!
Also, how is Your Followership building up? I mean, for Your “Expert Theologians for Worshipful Methods of Identity Theft”? Where do we subscribe to Your Newsletter?
Hear, hear, HEAR ye the self-righteous preachings of MammaryBahnFuhrer! (Imported below). She knows JUST the right theology to espouse, along with wearing JUST the right hairstyle, whorestyle, purse, and other accessories! Meanwhile, in the EXACT same source, She engaged in identity theft! Her heart, is truth, is a ravening black holes of hypocrisy, greedy self-righteousness, and other evils!
Now, the preachings of The Great Mammary:
It amazes me how Americans living in a purportedly Christian culture don't even understand the basic tenets of its theology.
Pretty much the whole point of Christianity is that everyone has sinned and is worthy of damnation so God became a human and took our punishment for us. And the libertarian angle is, that you still have a choice to accept or reject the gift already given.
Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Romans 6:23 ESV: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 3:16-17 ESV: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Same process as above folks.
Note that MarxistMammaryFuhrer does NOT deny Her Obvious hypocrisy, identity theft, and power-lusting evils!
(BUTT, She ***IS*** very proud of Her fashionable politics, "Christianity", hairstyle, and whorestyle!)
Oh sorry, you wanted a response to your crazy spoof bullshit? I mocked you then and I'll totally mock you again.
Happy?
Wait does this mean I move up on sarcs shit list? Top 10 here I come!
Your "Christianity", hairstyle, AND whorestyle are ALL utterly fashionable, Mostest Moistest Mammary! REJOICE!!!
I do.
TDS-addled spastic asshole gets flagged.
Fuck off and die, shit pile.
Make me, senile geezer-punk!
"A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself." - Proverbs 18:2
The problem of course is that the elites in both parties maintain these tribalist divisions, because the absolute last thing they want is a country that forms a unified consensus.
When the country was in danger of becoming unified in it's distaste of Biden's disastrous Afghanistan handling, Biden began numerous stump speeches complaining about DeSantis's masking policy. When that couldn't drum up enough controversy, he announced a draconian Vaccine Mandate- not because he was concerned about urgently stopping COVID (he has still not implemented the changes, and he had previously said the Federal Government would not have the power to do so.)
Once these partisan divides are created, even people claiming to be libertarians would rather remain silent in the face of the abuses of "their team" than criticize them. So Biden not only changes the subject from his terrible foreign policy but also gets liberty-lovers on the left to abandon their positions of medical autonomy.
It is only when people switch back to Principles instead of Principals guiding them- when these transparently cynical power plays by the elites are rejected out of hand- that they will stop. We have to stop looking the other way, merely because it is a deplorable or an immigrant or a lefty or a conservative whose liberties are being trampled.
Principles vs principals is my line. I've been using it for a decade.
Give yourself a cookie.
Except in practice you always apply it exactly backwards.
He is too dumb to realize he doesn't have principles.
When he can admit to overt he things the left is worse and then spend all his time attacking only the right, he kind of admits he doesn't have principles.
Are you number 2 or 3 sarcasmic?
He’s always #2.
Actual footage of this burn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol2_UkJS6kw
Oh Gosh! Did sarcastrated accidentally mutate hisself?
I can’t tell them apart, they ALL look like Yeoman Janice scratched their faces!!!!
What principles?
It's really disappointing that Reason continues to play this both sides garbage while ultimately reserving the majority of their scorn for the right. It shows they don't understand the current state of affairs and/or don't understand the NAP. The left absolutely is the aggressor in almost every facet of American life. I am not excusing the excesses of nationalism on the right, but tbh what we have seen from the right is very basic. When nationalism is really just an attempt to focus the efforts of government on giving freedom and stability to its own people then it is something to be encouraged. You would think that blame could rightly be placed at the feet of the instigator of war in our political system, especially when that faction holds nearly all power at the top of government and private industry. Even while the military personnel are mostly right leaning, the officers and generals have become extreme left (mostly due to Obama.)
If a libertarian organization can't recognize this then they are worthless in the fight for freedom
I miss the sixties.
"I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!"
They might not understand the NAP, but they clearly understand moral superiority.
“The left absolutely is the aggressor in almost every facet of American life.”
Which side sent violent rioters to attempt to stop the peaceful, democratic transition of one Presidential administration to the next?
Sorry, but both sides is quite accurate.
It is really odd to see commenters hanging out n the commentariat of a libertarian website who get all bent out of shape when one of the major American political parties is criticized, even when both parties are being criticized at the same time.
You need to be killed
No he doesn't, but he does need to wake the fuck up.
Mike Laursen knows exactly what he is and what he advocates. He intentionally lies to further the cause of leftist totalitarianism. He is an active threat to all Americans who value freedom and independence.
He is indeed. I won't argue with you there, but calling for death rhetorically plays into their narrative.
He is indeed. I won't argue with you there, but calling for death rhetorically plays into their narrative.
Why?
What do you think happens in a war?
The posts made by 'Mike Laursen' illustrate a stance that will ALWAYS be in conflict with freedom and liberty, that will ALWAYS attack it's proponents and seek to destroy it.
What should we wish the purveyor of these thoughts now, at this time, when we struggle against such for our existence?
Best of luck?
There is only one thing to wish an enemy. And doing so does NOT play into their narrative.
NOT doing so, however, does. It let's them brag to each other that we are too fearful to call them out when they spit in our faces.
And they are right.
So, Mike, I wish you an agonizing death, on the field, trying to the last to impose your idiot ideals upon free men. We will shit on your corpse.
Sorry but I can't agree with you guys right now. This kind of rhetoric is totally playing into their hands, and is more dangerous to us than them.
They're looking for an excuse to lock us into camps right now and this kind of venting is exactly what they want.
Look at idiot troll sarcasmic squeal about it below: https://reason.com/2021/12/27/americas-divisions-may-have-passed-the-tipping-point/?comments=true#comment-9275418
They're looking for an excuse to lock us into camps right now and this kind of venting is exactly what they want.
An 'excuse'?
Lock US into camps?
We are the largest armed force on the planet.
The unorganized American civilian militia is magnitudes larger than the next largest armed force in the world.
That fact is the ONLY thing that stands between you and their jackboots RIGHT NOW. Do you not get that?
They took Australia's guns and Australians don't have to worry about rhetoric that 'plays into their narrative'--the camps are ALREADY OPEN.
Know why?
Because we cower like whipped dogs every time they threaten us. They have no fear of us--listen to their mouthpieces, their useful idiots here. They think we're too scared to defend ourselves. Why? Because every fucking time they say BOO we all run away, afraid that defending ourselves will have greater ramifications.
And it WILL.
We NEED those ramifications.
They need to see theirs dead, and ours triumphant--instead of the other way around as our burning cities can attest.
It is time to stand up, at the very least. And to fight, if we must.
I agree with all that, but idiot lefty internet commenters aren't the clear and present danger that requires any of that.
The right needs to use wisdom as much as any other factor.
"They're looking for an excuse to lock us into camps right now and this kind of venting is exactly what they want."
And THIS is why we are heading to war. We can't speak freely because they might "lock us into camps" so everyone be quiet. If we are at that point, there is no other recourse other than war.
Threatening to kill people while were nowhere near that stage, isn't smart.
Threatening to kill people while were nowhere near that stage, isn't smart.
They threaten to kill US.
With impunity. Every day.
Every. Single. Day.
And every day delayed makes the coming war that much worse.
They want to kill us, or enslave us at the very least. So anything bad that happens is on them. Because it will all be self defense.
All they need to do is leave people alone, and no one gets hurt.
Are you saying he isn’t woke?
No, it's just odd watching someone hold on to the "both sides" argument so fundamentally.
Sorry, but in today's world, the left is the stronger political and social aggressor. That doesn't mean that the right can't be, hasn't been, or won't be in the future. Heck, the fluidity and circular nature of life would almost dictate that to happen.
But the question is the here and now. It's not the right that is engaging in extreme cancel culture, attacks on free speech, and a clamp down on what people are allowed to think and believe. It's not people on the right who unfriend and drop relatives from their lives over politics.
The idea with both sides arguments is not that both sides are always guilt of the same at all points, it's understanding that both sides are capable of creating the problem. That also entails knowing which side is more culpable at any one time versus the other and also now allowing the other side to use that basis to do the same thing. That's the proper both sides argument. Not just a blanket claim for every issue.
If there is a civil war, the fault will be 100% on the left. Unless you consider not wanting to be enslaved a provocation.
One of the most recent examples of this nonsense? Mandates. Democrats want mandates at all levels of government. Republicans at the state level want to ban all mandates by all jurisdictions granted their authority by the state.
To Reason, both are just as bad. It’s so ludicrous, it gives credence to the idea that they’re really a left wing propaganda rag in libertarian clothing.
“Sorry, but in today's world, the left is the stronger political and social aggressor.”
But I don’t think that’s the question. You can come up with weightings to attach to various violations of liberty and decency, and assign each of the two major American political parties a score.
In your personal scoring system, the Republicans come out ahead. In someone else’s the Democrats come out ahead, or they tie.
But who cares, because the real question for a libertarian (or even just a decent person) to ask is does either pass the stink test for my personal support — and the answer is clearly, no.
I'm not asking to support or not support a side. That's a ridiculous takeaway from my comment.
I'm explaining that constant "both sides" arguments that can't delineate between the parties on actions and issues at any given point in time is pseudo-intellectualism.
“I'm not asking to support or not support a side.”
That’s fine, you enjoy assigning the two major parties scores, with no particular goal in mind, such as deciding whether to support either of them. Furthermore, you give the Republican Party as better score according to whatever criteria you are using.
Meanwhile, as I’ve explained the question I’m asking is whether eithe major party is meeting the bar of being worthy of a libertarian’s support. They both fail to meet that bar, in my judgement — so that’s my basis for saying “both sides” is valid.
Great, we’ve both explained ourselves and discovered we are using different criteria for the validity of “both sides”.
I give the Repubs a better score on this issue. That's based on the empirical information. Dems get better scores on other issues. It's called analyzing without the bizarre need to both sides every issue.
And your own personal desire on who you want to support or not support or who you think libertarians should support is irrelevant. That's not the issue at hand. Thus, your criteria is not applicable in this situation.
MasterThief’s comment wasn’t about any particular issue, so I missed that you had meant to narrow discussion to only one particular issue.
Pseudo-intellectualism is kinda Mike’s whole thing.
"Sorry, but both sides is quite accurate"
Not in this world. The Republicans may act like Boss Hogg, but the Democrats are acting like the last seven seals of the apocalypse. When the only real opposition to the destruction of Western civilization by sociopaths are some greedy, nest-feathering idiots, you go with them.
The left did when they cheered making trump go to the bunker. The cops sent for the Kavanaugh disruptions. 100s of violent riots to change politics and get officers convicted.
Why do you spend so much energy defending the left?
Dude, you're a broken record. A few hundred idiots are let into the capital building. They break a few windows, but mostly they just cosplay and take selfies. Your analysis? "They're violent rioters!!!"
Yet, all summer we had truly violent race riots all over our country; including an assault on the white house. Tens of billions in damage and dozens killed. Hundreds seriously harmed. Your analysis, along with 100% of Reason staff? "Mostly peaceful protesters."
Not that you care, because you're a sea lion, but it's this type of analysis and commenting that clearly shows you are not a Libertarian or even intellectually honest. Ditto for Reason staff, as well.
Which side sent violent rioters to attempt to stop the peaceful, democratic transition of one Presidential administration to the next?
The left, on January 20, 2001, 2005, 2017, and 2021.
Just because you are blind to the actions of your comrades does not mean that WE are.
"Which side sent violent rioters to attempt to stop the peaceful, democratic transition of one Presidential administration to the next?"
The "Progressives." All through 2020.
Mike, read this:
https://www.allsides.com/blog/capitol-hill-breach-riot-coverage-demonstrates-media-bias
January 6th was not what it looks like when tens of millions of angry and armed citizens try to overthrow a government.
What we saw was much more like fans at a football match, when there is insufficient crowd control. Maybe not even that bad. The vast majority of people there wandered in through open doors, took some selfies, looked at the art, then wandered out.
They were certainly idiots, and a few seemed to be dangerous idiots. Pretending that what happened was as bad as 9/11 or the civil war as almost silly.
In 2016, there was a movement called "disrupt J20" that did much more damage, and openly called for the disruption of the inauguration.
In 1954, four leftists opened fire in the capital, injuring five congressmen. Carter ended up granting them clemency or commuting their sentences.
In 1971, leftists set off a bomb in the capital.
In 1983, another group of leftists set off another bomb in the capital. The people who did that were pardoned or had their sentences commuted by Clinton.
Remember 2018, when thousands of protesters stormed the Supreme Court to stop the swearing in of a judge? If the court building had been built less securely, they might have gotten in. Importantly, the doors are solid bronze with no glass. Democratic elected officials participated in that one.
Leftists routinely attempt to disrupt the operations of various government functions, as well as occupying offices and legislative spaces. Democratic officials often overtly support them or even participate. Two months ago leftists tried to storm and occupy the Interior dept building. A bunch of them made it in before the police could secure the doors.
Right wing nuts can be plenty dangerous, but the fact that 1/6 has to be inflated to such an absurd extent tells a lot.
Except that the so-called "National Conservatives" are not in any way focused on preserving freedom. They aren't your Grandpa's Barry Goldwater Limited Government Conservative.
J.D. Vance, should be in the vanguard of a free economy that would bring automation to coal-mining and allow all West Virginia kids to become Homer Hickham Rocket Boys. Instead, he supports protectionism that would preserve the economy of his shitty childhood.
Josh Hawley's only dispute with Lefties wanting a "Reality Czar" over Information Tech is that Josh Hawley is not the one they c want for "Reality Czar." He wants to ban the refplay button on videos and probably thinks the buffering symbol is trying to hypnotize all the rubes out there, who need the loving guidance of superior beings like himself.
Rod Dreher, rather than focusing on policies that could expand economic and educational opportunity for families, is more obsessed with same-sex marriage and buttsex than we libertarians are. His book The Benidict Option should have been subtitled:Oh Noes! Obergafell is Law of the Land! Lock Me In the Basement! Stop Me Before I Gay-Marry!
And Sohrab Ahmari and Ross Duthat make no bones about their Authoritarianism. Ahmari hit every branch on the Authoritarian Ugly Tree going down, even swan dove into the hranches, and never fully recovered. And Ross Duthat is explicit in his Grand Inquisitor dreams: "When they take the porn, you can curse my name!"
This "National Conservative" crowd all need their swords, sandals, tridents and nets and to be thrown in the arena with Antifa and Black Lives Matter! Let Civil War 2.0 begin in a Thunderdome while the rest of us decide not to participate!
Amen. I’ve said many times ship all the right-wing and left-wing extremists off to an island to fight each other. Televise it, sell advertising.
Then the rest of us can be left alone to live in a country of adults.
“The rest of us” lol.
Matt Welch wants to throw a red wedding but only for one side.
Beyond goofy political analysis. Almost desperate.
Yep, clearly a deadline/vacation column.
Can you give a specific criticism?
"Rhetorically, sealioning fuses persistent questioning—often about basic information, information easily found elsewhere, or unrelated or tangential points—with a loudly-insisted-upon commitment to reasonable debate.
It disguises itself as a sincere attempt to learn and communicate.
Sealioning thus works both to exhaust a target's patience, attention, and communicative effort, and to portray the target as unreasonable. While the questions of the "sea lion" may seem innocent, they're intended maliciously and have harmful consequences."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
Thank you. This was my immediate thought but couldn't remember the term.
Mike Liarson, aka Deelion.
Or lefty pile of lying shit.
Fuck Joe Biden.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1475251183140753408
For example:
“The election of Joe Biden to the presidency on promises of normalcy after the Trump years, promises which were promptly broken, indicates that Americans have some appetite for a less extreme and intrusive brand of governance.”
Yea, from Biden’s election as a smoke signal of “normalcy” revanchism (laughable) to it-and Biden-being tantamount to “less...governance.” Wow.
No one who read the democratic party platform could possibly think Joe Biden represented "normalcy".
Oh, yes. And this gem:
"Those who seek absolute power, even though they seek it to do what they regard as good, are simply demanding the right to enforce their own version of heaven on earth. And let me remind you, they are the very ones who always create the most hellish tyrannies. Absolute power does corrupt, and those who seek it must be suspect and must be opposed."
"All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts but that it is magnetic to the corruptible. Such people have a tendency to become drunk on violence, a condition to which they are quickly addicted."
-Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse Dune
And some just get drunk on booze, amirite sarc?
He's now quoting "Dune". His reading list has just moved light-years ahead from his traditional old issues of Mad and Cracked.
He has to find a new bastiat quote page, he used them all up.
Hey now, don't knock Mad Magazine. It can have some juicy bits of satire. The TV show on FOX was a scream too.
It was great.
In Living Color was better.
Did Wanda "Rock yo world?" 🙂
“Perhaps the fact that we have seen millions voting themselves into complete dependence on a tyrant has made our generation understand that to choose one's government is not necessarily to secure freedom.” -Friedrich August von Hayek
“I do not think it is an exaggeration to say history is largely a history of inflation, usually inflations engineered by governments for the gain of governments.”—Friedrich August von Hayek
DOH! Sorry, Friedrich, but the Best and the Brightest of OUR Age of Enlightenment have determined that inflation—like the mafia—-is just a myth!
Persactly. Not to mention he said he’d be the most progressive president in history.
Not normalcy.
Tuccille’s point hinges only on many voters having the perception that Biden would bring more normalcy, not that Biden actually would bring normalcy.
And, if the bar is merely to be _more_ normal than Trump, Biden has met that low bar.
Only if you think shitting yourself in the Vatican is normal.
Hey, cut the old guy some slack.
Someone was talking in his earplug when he was told that it was time to see the POPE.
Only if you think shitting yourself in the Vatican is normal.
Well now, that all Depends….
Can you not defend biden or media lies for even a second?
He's a Bidet, his job it to clean Joe's asshole whenever he shits up the place.
I know you flipped out about Trump bragging about his kid's looks, and insinuated it was incest. But now that we find that Biden was taking "inappropriate" (her words) showers with his teenage daughter, do you think that this is merely being _more_ normal than Trump?
What about Burisma? Was that more normal?
What about Build Back Better? Was that more normal?
How about the military purge? Or vaccine mandates? Or troops in the capitol?
Your more normal looks a lot like more fascist to me.
Haha! Dishonest Mike cannot criticize Biden. He's a sycophant.
You just can't stay away from the QAnon fairy tales? At least you have proof that JFK and JFKjr came back from the dead. Quit drinking the pedophile blood and switch to 12 cans of diet coke a day.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2020/09/28/qanon-pedophile-claims-biden-trump-save-the-children-facebook-instagram/3522626001/
Here's C-SPAN footage of Biden being a pedophile.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XqF4wA-dco
Before you post one more thing, explain it.
Holy f*ck! I bet it won't stay up on Facebook for long.
CB
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
Next time, answer the question.
The only conclusion to be drawn is Dee finds all that behavior normal.
“Tuccille is arguing that it was a sign American voters wanted normalcy...”
Hence the goofy analysis tag. Biden’s election as a measure of normalcy in governance is akin to saying shackles are a measure of locomotion ( to paraphrase somebody.)
Lest we forget: Biden himself promised that his governance ( policies therein) “will go down as one of the most progressive administrations in American history."
You’re free to reconcile that promise, his own, with “promises of normalcy,” in the context of his election. Where or when in our presidential election history does “most progressive” anything = normalcy? Ok, maybe FDR.
Also, Trump’s defeat was not a result of his confronting Biden-The-Normal. (At best, Biden was thought most likely from amongst the lunatic leftist horde to more efficiently tiptoe between the Covid corpses, reduce their numbers, and spit less upon the anti-Maskers and “incorrigibles.”)
But Trump’s defeat was due to two principal externalities, as opposed to some normalcy dialectic:
1) Covid mania and 2) the axis of evil (academia/media/centralized statists) political persecution campaign, 24/7.
Remove those two forces, and Biden would still be hiding in his basement.
Trump’s defeat was due to his failure to rein in his own offensive personality. If he could just faked being a mature, somewhat civil adult, he would have won.
1) Sorry for messing up post order, as I’m old and slow and struggle with this stuff;
2) to your direct reply: then why did Trump’s offensive personality grant him an initial presidency? Did he undergo a personality change? I think that’s a talking point and of little substance at the voting booth.
Someone with an even more unappealing personality. Or at least one that was more unappealing than what we knew about Trump in 2016 — we became much more familiar with just how awful a person he is over the course of four years.
Trump's performance in 2020 was a significant improvement on 2016, yet Mike Laursen is here to spread the regime lie that Trump offended too many people (while picking up 10+ million more votes than the previous election).
He was “nasty”, ergo we needed a national cabal of well-placed “election fortifiers” to make sure to shift the vote to the combination of an ancient (D) Senate architect of laws the (D) claim to have disparate racial impact, along with the least likable person on the (D) primary ballot.
Now, we’re treated to Biden/Harris/whoisitreally? apologists who busy themselves manufacturing your kind of $.50 excuse for this current pile of statist control freaks who are driving the most berserk spending/taxing frenzy in history. Fuck right off.
Don’t look at me. I didn’t vote for Biden or Trump. I voted for Jorgensen.
And it made no difference, anyway, because I don’t live in a “swing” state.
In a world where election fortification is treated as SOP, and the DOD lies about troop levels in Syria to prevent an administration withdraw perhaps mention of a trend line toward “normalcy” isn’t really that appropriate.
Tuccille is arguing that it was a sign American voters wanted normalcy (and were “fooled again” by thinking Biden truly offered normalcy). Tuccille is not arguing that Biden genuinely offered normalcy.
Biden was sold as a moderate. Plenty of idiots believed that lie.
Mike and reason gladly pushed the lie.
Biden was not 'sold' as anything.
Biden was installed.
Not anyone who read the democratic party platform upon which he ran.
Reason could have read his campaign page and not fallen for the media narrative they helped push. But that would have taken work.
Imagine how important Reason might be as the “reasonable” (perhaps even pliable) voice of the “fiscally conservative” in a world being Built Back Better.
Now imagine a bunch of mediocre writers having to scramble in a world where libertarian ideas are freely discussed in a competitive, nationally positive entrepreneurial environment and one can imagine an publishing business model calculation being made to participate in certain … “fortifications” to ensure a continued salary in our brave new world. Do well by doing good, right?
CIA glowing hard here.
All these stupid civil war LARPs forget that people have to fight wars. The American people aren't going to fight each other. Contrary to media narratives, most people who own guns have no intention of using them and pray they never need to. Most leftists, at least the ones I know personally, don't have any desire for violence. They hate the Ds just like we hate the Rs and Ls. Most people feel un-represented and think our entire government is an embarrassing shitshow. Definitely not something they'll die over.
A more accurate take on today's politics is that the disgust with our current officials has created a fantastic opportunity for libertarianism to build inroads with people who don't want to turn to government for solutions. Most people are still outdated and look to the govt for answers, but those people have started to look to outsiders since the current insiders are inept.
Every time we gave examples of how ineffective govt was at handling something and someone shrugged it off, now is our time. People are starting to realize we were right all along.
Reagan ran on the assertion that government was the problem, and won in a landslide.
The cycle's coming back around-- maybe two years; probably six.
"Trust the system"
That'll totes work one of these days. We'll just ignore the phase shift that occurred in 2020 and keep the faith in everything magically working out alright.
Well, assuming the Dems don't get their mass fraud voting act passed.
Exactly. A typical American is not going to fight in some civil war that interrupts their morning coffee and cell phone time.
The extremists of the left and right, though, might well get worse in rioting, destruction, and fighting each other. They will try to drag peaceful people into their stupid cultural war, but there will be a point where it goes to far for normal people.
Stop pretending to be something you’re not.
Exactly.
1. You're not normal.
2. It's the self-purported "moderates" who are the establishment oligarchs and plutocrats currently dismantling Western civilization through their lust for wealth and power.
3. Of course you know this but you're one of the most fundamentally dishonest people I've ever met.
"It's the self-purported "moderates" who are the establishment oligarchs and plutocrats currently dismantling Western civilization through their lust for wealth and power."
Do you truly believe this comment? If so, do you truly believe that non-moderates are not motivated by wealth and power?
Did you see the quote marks around "moderate"? Do you know what they're for?
Check out what "self-purported" means too.
So your position is that self-purported moderates really are extremists?
So you don't know what quotes mean when used essentially as rhetorical air quotes?
Again man, you need to ease up on your butthurt.
Are you Mike's sock? Because you're being 1. willfully obtuse, and then 2. trying to change the conversation by wrongfully accusing someone of getting unnecessarily upset.
Two of Mike's favorite tricks.
Man, the tribal sentiments here are just off the chart. From name calling to constant claims of socks, it is just astounding. If this comment board is taken seriously, then maybe Tuccille has a valid point.
What the fuck is tribal? How does that apply to what I said?
Are you just grabbing any old insult to fling because you're arguing above your pay grade?
No, just responding to your immediate jump to the lazy sock argument.
And how would that be tribal?
"So your position is that self-purported moderates really are extremists?
Some, yes.
Particularly people like Mike, the Neocons, etc.
But at the end of the day, your point is that they really aren't moderates, they just pretend to be?
Do you think true moderates can exist? And I'm asking honestly, not snarkly. I like having true discussions.
Absolutely, but a majority of those who self-identify as moderate are in no way actually moderate.
In most cases they use the appellation to disguise a radical agenda.
I can see what you are saying. I don't think I would claim the majority, though. I do think there are a meaningful amount of people claiming to be moderates in order to obfuscate in order to get extreme positions accepted. However, I think more the problem with those who claim to be moderates is their ability to be pulled in all sorts of directions without standing firm in the name of moderation. This can result in an almost constant appeasement to the extreme.
Recently notorious warmongers like Max Boot, Jonah Goldberg, Bill Kristol, Bill and Hillary Clinton, Dick and Liz Cheney, David Brooks, Ross Douthat, Maureen Dowd, Thomas Friedman, Nicholas Kristof, Paul Krugman, Joe Biden, ect. have been being portrayed as moderate principled centrists. Bravely opposing the extremities in both the right and left.
Whereas in fact their policies on drugs and Middle Eastern wars have slaughtered and imprisoned millions; and their economic policies and regulations have stifled the free markets while aiding the corporatist megacorps they have stocks in.
The impact of what they advocated destroyed lives in a far more radical way than anything supposed wildcards like Trump or Sanders ever did. They're the opposite of moderate in fact, even though everyone would call them "centrists".
Mike is a similar animal, picking his spot on the compass and pretending it's the middle when it's even more radical in practice than most.
“From what I've seen, Mike is center-left.”
Not center or left. I’m a pretty standard issue, non-partisan libertarian.
Whatever you say.
Have I said anything to indicate otherwise?
Every post, Mike.
Nobody believes this Dee.
like all standard non-partisans, defending everything the left does and catching the vapors over J6 at every opportunity...standard issue definitely not a lefty behavior.
HahahahHahahahahahaha
99.99% of political violence in the US are your fellow travelers. As treason is the exclusive province of the left.
read more about the russian revolution
The left has an army of blackshirts that it can deploy to any city in America that has a progressive DA (a number that is growing) to commit violence with little consequence. They don’t NEED regular left wing people to be interested in fighting other Americans.
Which leaves the rest of us in a bit difficult situation, even if we’d rather not get involved.
Antifa needs to go. As do people like Soros and his friends who are finding them, and these Marxist DA’s. I don’t see this country surviving their confused existence.
Better the Marxists perish, and America survives.
Blackshirts Matter!! (Which needs to stop.)
People are starting to realize we were right all along.
As evidenced by the great LP election day showings.
Us being correct doesn't translate to LP wins because we aren't the LP.
People might realize now that govt sucks at dealing with present day problems like supply chain crises and COVID, but that doesn't translate into voting for crackpot candidates who want to ban seatbelts and legalize DUI.
The LP would show better if the "Progressives" weren't such an obvious danger that normal people could risk voting for a non-Republican.
This is what a lot of RINOs rely on. They're the "only ones who can win" against the Progs, who are even worse.
This country has many problems. Massive income and wealth unbalance, increasingly affordable medical care, expensive housing, lingering effects of racism, climate change, covid, backsliding on democracy (big problem), and extremism. One side is trying to address these, while their specific proposals might not be the best, they are honestly trying. While the other side is doing everything they can to make the problems worse and will actively create lies and false narratives to feed to their supporters. The US democratic system might fall, and it will the the Republicans that cheer on the demise. I wish they would wake up and take a step back from the precipice they want to push the country over.
I wish you would wake up and see that you are exactly the kind of partisan tribalist that Tuccille is talking about.
It's amazing how much you continue to prove Tuccille's point.
This idea that the other political team is the problem and that my political team is the solution and if you disagree, you are evil, stupid, and not worthy is literally the biggest problem this country faces.
My, you are a fucking lying piece of shit. Are you counting on post-COVID brain damage among the public to make us forget the unified pro-Democrat “election fortification” work?
Fuck you and fuck your Democrat shitballs; do they pay you $.50 per dungwad you bury, scarab fuckface?
You just complained about most far left governed cities.
The irony being the ones you claim are addressing the problems exacerbate it themselves. Lol.
Methinks thou dost project too much.
I dare anyone to walk through Portland, OR wearing a T-shirt with that emblazoned on both front and back!
This is absolutely correct--
MoolyGodiva has explained, succinctly the left's program of lies and deceptions. The false narratives they create with the intent of strengthening their supporters and destroying the very concepts of freedom and liberty.
"One side is trying to address these, while their specific proposals might not be the best, they are honestly trying."
The GOP appreciates your tone towards them...but they aren't terribly good either.
Better than the Dems, who shit the bed on every thing you listed earlier, but not great.
Income inequality is the surest sign that we still have some freedom left.
The country you want is already in place, 90 miles south of Miami. Maybe you can hitch a ride on some floating flotsam.
You’re mostly right, except you have the sides reversed. You and your friends are Marxist poison. You have no right to exist. So you all need to abandon all your beliefs and walk away. While you still can.
Just about all the "problems" you list are either (a) entirely made-up / nonexistent, or (b) not something that the government should involve itself in. (As Dennis Prager says, the best answer to most (all?) liberal / progressive complaints is: So what?!)
The Republicans and the Democrats may be divided on many issues, but the idea of leaving people alone isn't one of them. They are clearly united on the idea of demonizing those goddamn evil libertarians for their belief that people should be free to choose their own paths when it should be obvious when you leave people free to choose they will choose incorrectly.
The overwhelmingly large number of Rs and Ds do not know what a libertarian is and thus do not care.
Ain't that a fact! The only political argument I got into over Christmas was literally with a Dem and a Repub about what the definition of a libertarian is. The Dem believe it was an anarchist white supremist and the Repub thought it was an extreme leftist.
My jaw was on the floor talking to them.
"My jaw was on the floor talking to them."
Really? Show me a libertarian on these comments and I'll show you a half a dozen Republicans calling the person an extreme leftist.
There are definitely hardcore Republicans here. But there are many people here with underlying libertarian principles.
In the end, libertarianism is a utopic political ideology that in full practice is impossible. It requires setting aside true human nature, just like socialism and communism require on the other side of the political spectrum.
But libertarianism does provide default starting positions and does underpin many ideals, especially when you talk about true classical liberalism.
The libertarian conundrum is that because we have no desire to control people, we don't seek political office. And it's not like anyone would vote for someone who promises to put government employees out of work and end wealth transfers.
The libertarian conundrum is it doesn't work when applied literally. Humans can't behave the utopic way that the political philosophy demands.
What libertarianism is great at is providing foundational ideas to build from.
All idealism is ultimately authoritarian as it requires uniform thought and action. Libertarians should strive to maximize freedom and choice in policy.
Federalism is the closest we've come to achieving some form of liberty as it allows people who want to trade freedom for security to choose to live in those areas.
I don’t want to control anyone, but I have no problem eliminating anyone who seeks to control me. It’s skit self defense. Clearly the democrats seek to make their destruction an absolute necessity
You are falling into sarcs trap. Not believing everything trump did makes one a hard-core republican. Preferring policy to behavior is not hard core republican.
Youre making the same politically convenient arguments you decry above.
Trump did was wrong*
I literally said nothing about Trump.
You keep resorting to this debate tactic of saying "you're doing what you decry" when it's not remotely applicable.
Yes it is. You have claimed you know what true libertarianism is but dismiss others here as right wing without stating why.
You are doing the exact same thing. You aren't seeking honest conversation.
Where did I dismiss others as right-wing? I explained there are Republicans here, but that there are those here who have libertarian principles as well. Where does that dismiss anyone? You really strive to disagree with me for some reason, I don't understand it.
Inquisitive Squirrel
December.27.2021 at 11:38 am
Flag Comment Mute User
There are definitely hardcore Republicans here.
No, I said you fell for sarcs trap.
If you believe the above, elucidate what you mean. We know sarcs assertions and you were agreeing with him. Those he calls right wing are the ones you are arguing with. By proxy you've extended his argument in agreement.
Wait, you are butthurt because I said there are hardcore republicans here and you assumed that must mean you, so you are going all ape shit on me?
Wow. That says a lot about you, not me.
@Insensitive Squirrel
JesseAz answered your question, and you just dismissed him as a supposed Republican, proving his point. And yet YOU are the one calling him butthurt?
Lose the condescending attitude.
In the end, libertarianism is a utopic political ideology that in full practice is impossible. It requires setting aside true human nature, just like socialism and communism require on the other side of the political spectrum.
------
On the contrary, we're the only ones who understand human nature and that we need align the incentives correctly to get good government.
“libertarianism is a utopic political ideology”
Maybe certain flavors of libertarianism, such as the views held by Rothbardians who aspire to a 100% logically consistent libertarianism derived from the non-aggression principle.
But there are many other flavors in the libertarian spectrum. Classical liberalism, for example.
Yet you’re a shill for the current democrat party. Which is about as illiberal as you can get.
The irony of your post.
Yeah, but that’s because you think anyone that disagrees with you is a Republican.
Thats not true. Many democrats come here to gaslight as libertarians. Jeff, you, Mike, and this year sarcasmic. I mean chipper was even saying marxism was libertarian lol.
S&P +0.85%
Yep… another terrible day in Uncle Joe’s communist Amerikkka.
As to the coming Civil War, as a gay Black Republican like average Joes Milo Yiannopoulos and Caitlin Jenner I can’t wait to use my massed collection of assault rifles against the real threats facing America— namely college students in Women’s Studies programs. Those people are the reason we’re all eating gruel and the occasional supplement of dog meat. Fuck them! TO WAR!!!
Dude, you kinda broke character at the start. Don’t do that — that’s what OBL does sometimes, and it really makes his character less entertaining.
What character Mike? You can just look outside and look at the obvious decay of Uncle Joe’s communist police state. Do I have to amp up my homosexuality, my Blackness, or further describe the absolutely bleak state of Amerikkka under the Democrats? Ok, Mike, here’s more evidence of that Amerikkka: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/biden-economy-comparison-gdp-growth-scorecard-every-president-since-eisenhower-2021-8%3famp
You may think I’m fucking around with all these right-wing nitwit morons, but I’m not. I’m the real deal: Black, gay and GOPProud.
That’s better.
One of the biggest problems with a civil war starting, is that none of us really know who we would fight.
Sure, there are those friends who hold different views than you do; but, they don't muster enough anger to try to fight or kill them.
For a majority of people, the enemy is a media and political class created fantasy. There is no actual bad guy. We get fed a steady diet of hate and outrage by our political and media class. We are cosntatnly told that X party or X people are evil, terrible, want everyone to die. But when we go to the grocery store or the mall, we don't actually see those people anywhere.
It's the disconnect from what the news and the political class claims exists from what actually exists in our world.
It's hard to start a shooting war when most people have no idea who to shoot.
Thus, I really am not worried about a civil war starting anytime soon.
The political and media class are the ones who need the bullet.
Agreed!
Agree.
Seriously? I could easily imagine Nardz getting out of his car in a traffic jam and executing everyone in a Prius or with a COEXIST sticker on their car.
You're making two fallacies.
1. That the keyboard jockeys here would actually back up their online, secret barks with commensurate bites.
2. That the people in the commentariat reflect the populace as a whole in any measurable way.
I honestly believe they would murder people if they thought they could get away with it.
Maybe. But I think the "getting away with it" part is important to inject into the equation. It's not pretty or romantic, but not getting away with it is a true motivator to not do something. And I think that motivator is quite large in our society right now.
Honest question. Why so much pushback on others and then none on sarcasmics bullshit? This is why people assert you have a bias. Just a heads up.
Seriously, man. I'm simply having a civil conversation with sarc. I know you don't like him, but ease up on this.
There will be times in the future where I will disagree with him. And there will be times in the future where I will agree with him. And even in this conversation, there have been times where we are not in agreement, but neither of us has resorted to extreme positioning or condescension. Rather, we are simply having a civil discussion.
I'm going to fully embrace civil political discussions where I can find them, since they are in massively short supply these days.
I doubt you're telling the truth.
Good thing we know how dishonest you are.
Nardz has never threatened to execute someone.
Sarcasmic has threatened violence. I can link if you want.
Hey man, if Nigerian MAGA nazis can lynch a gay black actor in Chicago, then the battle lines may be more clearly drawn than you think.
Fuck Nigerian MAGA nazis. All decent people can support that.
Hey Tuccile, do sham elections make civil war more or less likely?
More importantly right now, does Der TrumpfenFuhrer's piggish, absolutely arrogant insistence on NEVER giving up His Big Lie make civil war more or less likely? And ditto for the slavish orange-dick-sucking ways of His Followers?
Can you explain all the irregularities that happened?
You are fixated, al of you, on making this a 'both sides' issue.
But it is not.
One side is referring to vast swathes of Americans as 'unclean'. As 'domestic terrorists'. As 'racists' As 'deplorables'.
One side is suggesting that rights be infringed, that care be limited, that access be denied.
The other side just wants to be left out of all that.
Reason's 'libertarians' and their leftist comrades desperately try to paint actions to keep leftists from imposing their will on people as 'oppressive' and 'limiting' themselves.
One side tries to redefine liberty as fascism.
And Reason is on that side.
We have not gone past the 'tipping point'. There never WAS a 'tipping point'. The fight that is coming was inevitable, because the left exists only to foment revolution. It has no other purpose, no other aim. It has no workable policies, no eventual societal structure--all it has is the push towards unseating the powerful that it sees as being in it's way.
And if it manages to best us it will not declare aught but momentary victory as new foes will always appear.
There are two sides though.
The sane, and the insane. And Reason has slipped into Madness.
The vast majority of Americans are too damned lazy for there to ever be enough of a critical mass for civil war. So long as they can binge watch their favorite shows or free porn and order stuff from Amazon, while bitching about the other side on social media, it will mostly be peaceful with occasional flare ups-like when two cats stare and growl at each other. The one thing that could ignite a civil war is economic instability which we are seeing now with inflation. This might not make a difference right to the trust funders living in already expensive deep blue cities, but it will to those who can no longer afford to heat or cool their homes or put gas in their cars.
Yes, what we really need is a strong leader who will unite the sides, unite everyone with a unified vision. Someone who will end the bickering and the division and unite us all with a common goal. We can finally act as one. That person will tell us what to do.............
That usually requires a group that can be ostracized, a group that can be denounced as unclean, dangerous. Thankfully nothing like that is happening now is it?
What we're seeing is a reaction to the totalitarianism of progressives. I remain persuaded of Jeane Kirkpatrick's distinctions between authoritarianism and totalitarianism, with one of the biggest being the difference between authoritarians telling people what to do--and totalitarians telling people what to think and how to feel. I maintain that progressivism is a totalitarian ideology, especially in its attempts to control what we believe and how we feel.
"Traditional autocrats leave in place existing allocations of wealth, power, status, and other re- sources which in most traditional societies favor an affluent few and maintain masses in poverty. But they worship traditional gods and observe traditional taboos. They do not disturb the habitual rhythms of work and leisure, habitual places of residence, habitual patterns of family and personal relations . . . .
Precisely the opposite is true of revolutionary Communist [totalitarian] regimes. They create refugees by the million because they claim jurisdiction over the whole life of the society and make demands for change that so violate internalized values and habits that inhabitants flee by the tens of thousands in the remarkable expectation that their attitudes, values, and goals will “fit” better in a foreign country than in their native land.
----Jeane Kirkpatrick
"Dictatorships and Double Standards"
https://www.commentary.org/articles/jeane-kirkpatrick/dictatorships-double-standards/
While Americans aren't fleeing the country by the tens of thousands, that is mostly because the progressives have been relatively unsuccessful--when compared to totalitarian communist regimes of the past--in implementing their totalitarian agenda though government. They have made substantial attempts to engage in thought control through government, however, with Critical Race Theory, employee bias training, and using antitrust and Congress to bully the media into shutting down discussion and viewpoints that oppose progressive ideology as examples. The progressives just haven't been able to engage in thought control like China and North Korea to the level they do yet. (And that isn't even getting started on progressive cancel culture, Hollywood wokeism, or the news media's complicity--all attempts at thought control).
To the extent that an unbridgeable gulf has come between the left and the right, here: 1) it's not necessarily a bad thing and 2) that gulf was always present before the progressives took total control of the government and before Donald Trump became president. There was never a time when the gulf between totalitarian socialists and libertarian capitalists should have been bridgeable. The totalitarian fanaticism of progressives is and should be completely unacceptable in principle, to us, and watching average Americans reflexively rising up in opposition to progressive totalitarianism should be applauded--by libertarian capitalists everywhere. There is no libertarian and capitalist alternative to opposing totalitarian socialists, which is precisely what it means to be progressive.
Find me a progressive, in good standing, who believes that people should be free to believe things that offend woke sensibilities--and should be free to speak them out loud in public. Find me a progressives who believes that people should be free to offend woke sensibilities on social media, should be free to broadcast their unwoke views on television, should be free to advocate their views in news articles, etc. Find me a progressive, in good standing, who believes that people with unwoke views should be allowed to work for the government or should be allowed to hold management positions in the private sector. And once you fail to find such a person, please concede that progresssivisim is a totalitarian religion. In their minds, your feelings are a problem for the government to solve.
I once saw a gaggle of progressives in the media say that a jury should have convicted an innocent man of murder--not because what he did was a crime per se but because the message not convicting him supposedly sent to people with his deplorable thoughts. Plenty of people seem to imagine that opposing the stupidity of racism, homophobia, sexism, and xenophobia means we need to support the progressives to some extent, but that's wrong. And it isn't just that progressives aren't the only people who oppose these things; it's also that progressives using the government to inflict their religious beliefs on the rest of society is fundamental to what it means to be progressive.
If you're a Christian that believes adultery is a sin that will be punished by God, that doesn't mean you need to support using the government to throw women in prison for cheating on their husbands. Plenty of pious Christians have believed (and still believe) in the separation of church and state--going back to Martin Luther's "two kingdoms" at the very least. For progressives, there is no separation of church and state in their religious doctrines. Using the coercive power of government to force people to do things against their will (for the greater good) is the central premise of progressivism. And if the gulf that creates--between average Americans and progressives--is unbridgeable, that is a very good thing. It's time to pick a side already.
"For progressives, there is no separation of church and state in their religious doctrines. Using the coercive power of government to force people to do things against their will (for the greater good) is the central premise of progressivism."
Look no further than our local progressive simp - Molly G.
There is no separation because the politicians that have seized control have fully adopted their favored religion: weird, secular, hedonistic, pseudoscience filled socialism. So the state essentially merged with their church. Which explains why they act like so many religions (or cults really) complete with original sin, heretics, apocalyptic predictions etc.
We are watching nothing more than a political party fuse with a now state-approved religion. They just pray to another god, but otherwise its par for the course.
It’s a logical impossibility to be a civil libertarian and an economic socialist at the same time (that’s the ACLUs new schtick.) They’ll fail miserably (except in California, where the public schools embrace illiteracy) because the intersectional groups of minorities, women, immigrants and LGBTQ contain productive individuals that desire the American Dream and upward mobility. The Virginia election is a good example of Muslim migrant parents fighting white progressives.
The progressives just haven't been able to engage in thought control like China and North Korea to the level they do yet.
Wrong Ken… why with the levels of totalitarian control in this country (I’d cite Jeanne Kirkpatrick too, but she is a Democrat) I’m thinking of moving to China or North Korea to escape the communist persecution I’m facing here in Biden’s communist Amerikkkan hellhole.
S&P +1.15 [damn this CRT!!!]
https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/status/1475328768545804288?t=_DVLh08Gd10eSvwZGP8Lww&s=19
Wonder what a list like this will look like a year from now!
[Graphic]
It's an almost word for word list of everything Laursen has claimed over the last year.
The same thing happened to his insurrection narrative.
I wonder how long that Twitter account will stay up?
https://twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1474815335379488771?t=K5lIyeEUnKBfycAMDBpGXw&s=19
This is how BlueAnon is celebrating Christmas [link]
They're doxxing a guy for the exact same stuff that they were celebrating for doing to Trump.
It's like hypocrisy for the sake of hypocrisy.
I am shifting my thought to no if DC and NY were attacked by terrorists again half the country would cheer and a third of the country wouldn't care
Of the two teams in this country - and for simplicity's sake let's call the team left and team right - one side is furiously trying to force mandates, controls, taxes, and lifestyle changes onto the other. Guess which one it is?
That may be true, but neither side is perfect--and if neither side is perfect, then one of them can't be better than the other.
Take dog shit and an overcooked steak for example. An overcooked steak isn't perfect, so it's just like eating dog shit.
This is what progressive trolls want us to believe--because they're stupid.
“Take dog shit and an overcooked steak for example. An overcooked steak isn't perfect, so it's just like eating dog shit.”
You really put your thumb on the scale in your example. More accurate would be dog shit vs regurgitated steak.
You're not taking away from his point.
What lifestyle changes?
Are you in favor of the government imposing some lifestyle changes but not others?
Of course she is. As long as she agrees with what's being forced. That's was good little progressive think.
Let's just start with your own proposal up above where as a doctor I am not allowed to decide to treat a patient who is not vaccinated against covid.
Fuck off with your controls and schemes. it's you and the rest of the left doing all this. not the right, i'm sorry.
I fucking hate doctrinaire republicans and I still have to defend them as the better option against these would-be stalinists.
It is not who treats, it is about who pays. If people who refuse the vaccine want to put up a deposit on the entire cost of potential treatment, then sure go for it. But others should not pay for those who refuse vaccines.
it must be so hard to go through life being this dumb ^
Nah.
The ProgHiveMind does ALL the thinking for them.
Makes it easy.
I heard it’s like being high all the time.
This is an excellent reason to oppose the expansion of Medicaid or Medicare for all. It's all about using the government to impose their choices on people--even while they pretend they're trying to help them. This is yet another reason why progressives are America's most horrible people.
Woah, woah, woah, slow down. Nobody on the Left (or Right) has been proposing barring unvaccinated people from hospital care.
except for people on this very board. and all over the social media spaces. And on CNN.
Other than those people yeah i guess you're right.
Please cite CNN’s advocacy.
You said the quiet part out loud.....
When government controls your healthcare, they will simply refuse to treat you if you aren't sufficiently loyal.
Great, so if you refuse to use birth control, we don't pay for your abortion?
Hey, remember Sandra Fluke? She was the law student complaining about having to pay for her birth control. And (that horrible misogynist!) Rush Limbaugh called her out for that.
I do remember. That lady was just fucked up in the head.
“Let's just start with your own proposal up above where as a doctor I am not allowed to decide to treat a patient who is not vaccinated against covid.”
Yes, but that’s just an outlier idea expressed by MollyGodiva (and, if I recall correctly, Jfree). It’s not an idea the Left (or the Right) has ever proposed. So, you’ve just strayed from a debate about the relative merits of Team Blue vs Red, to a debate about MollyGodiva’s idea.
MollyGodiva is team left and no, she's not alone.
Please cite a person who actually has influence on Democratic policy.
Die.
Conservatives want a Christo-Fascist nation. They are the Muslims of the USA.
As a secular humanist I can't support that.
Christo-Fascist nation
Seems like all the actual fascists held your faith, Buttplug.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf#Nazi_persecution_of_the_Christian_churches
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini#Religious_views
Comparing American Christians to Muslims most anywhere is the height of intellectual dishonesty. You clearly don't know anything about either religion or reality. There are plenty of valid criticism for American Christians, but claiming they want our country to resemble the Handmaiden's Tale, is nothing short of delusional.
Conservatives want a Christo-Fascist nationf
this is junior-highschooler level analysis. Good job!
Remember that the Jan 6 Trump attack mob and the 9/11 hijackers had exactly the same goal - to destroy American democracy.
That is fact, Peanuts.
Actually that's a lie and a sociopathic comparison, Buttplug.
But you know that. You're paid to come here and troll, and shitpost, and lie, and cause dissention.
Like with the above.
Sbp is a kiddie porn posting pedofile
Fact
That’s fact, the same way that Trump illegally colluded with the Russians to steal the 2016 election, and the same way Hunter Biden’s “laptop” is Russian disinformation, and the same way that Cuomo is a hero for the way he handled the pandemic, and that Rittenhouse hunted and killed black people in the name of white supremacy, and the 2020 riots were peaceful, and the same way that Covington school kids harassed a Native American in the name of white supremacy, and that white supremacists rallied for Youngkin and were captured on film, and the 2017 tax cuts went only to the wealthiest Americans, and the inflation is transitory, and Critical Race Theory is never a part of public education, and no one is trying to take your guns away, and Trump never denounced racists, etc.
Seek Jesus.
By the way, expect a lot more of this kind of thing going forward. The holidays are a big fundraising time for political candidates and political interests, and everyone expects the Democrats to get their asses kicked eleven months from now. There will be a lot of money being floated around, and that money won't want to see the Republicans run away with the election.
We should expect to see the outlets reflect the opinions of the people who finance them. There are libertarians who don't want to see the Republicans be the main opposition to socialism, the main support for free speech, etc. They want the libertarians to be dominant force, and they don't want to see the Republicans upstage them.
He who pays the piper calls the tune.
"Have America's much-discussed political tensions reached a point of no return?"
Yes, at least 3 decades ago.
The system is broken and there is no way to fix it short of burning the existing system to the ground and starting over from scratch.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think violent civil war would be a good thing (yet), I just think it's inevitable at this point.
At this point it is just a matter of time before things get bad enough that enough people see violent revolution/civil war as the least bad option.
we've been on a long slow slog toward comprehensive socialism for over 100 years. Started with income tax, accelerated by the Fed and the women's vote (sorry but true), and then the rise of communism in the 30s and 40s sealed it. We've been doomed every since.
The only good trend that has occurred in this country in the past 100 years is the decline of racism, which is basically gone at this point unless you are an academic whose job requires racism to be the boogeyman for all ills.
"What radicalized you?"
Me: https://twitter.com/Caesar63BC/status/1474061836370821130?
For me, it was this one:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=46&v=bSHz5S3yIzg&feature=emb_logo
Cripes!
So bad. For me he was never the funniest, but this is a whole new level of anti-funny. I might not be able to laugh for weeks.
Leftist: "What radicalized you?"
Us (leaning closer): "You did."
So true.
It's quite possible we're near the tipping point. Take it from Congressman Hank Johnson
It's the beginning of the end.
Good article in the Atlantic about 'secession movements' in the US now.
Most of the usual suspects here are just emoting their usual violence fantasies. But there is one quote from this article that Americans in general really should start pondering - Perhaps we needn’t be so precious about redrawing borders.
This current polarization really is not about red states v blue states. States are themselves often ungovernable now because of the polarization. Those state borders were NEVER created as any sort of an internally consistent self-government choice. They were always arbitrary lines on a map - as arbitrary as the colonial borders that still remain in Africa.
Maybe it is time to imagine the Stars and Stripes with 100+ stars - where decentralization of authority actually could work and would give people the ability to self-govern again.
Eastern Oregon wants to join Idaho (to escape Portland and Salem):
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2021/12/oregon-secession-idaho-move-border/621087/
The answer is the same as it was then -- split up. Only skip the part where 600,000 people die this time.
Except the red and blue partisans are distributed all over the place. Even in “red” or “blue” states, there are pockets of the opposite color, and purple.
Furthermore, the majority of people are not members of either partisan camp.
Which is why it's pure evil that leftist totalitarians like Mike Laursen refuse to live-and-let-live.
You will face consequences.
I think what is much more likely is that the government will try to stage a "civil war" using any sort of protest by the right that gets out of hand and use that as a pretext to shut down any political dissent.
We've seen this already with the supposed plot to kidnap that governor, the obviously fake "Patriot Front"
Yes, this. I fear the "right" will take the bait.
Which is why the only move is to go all in.
should another insurrection occur," Paul Eaton, Antonio Taguba, and Steven Anderson wrote
Another insurrection? I guess we can throw anything else they say in the toilet.
"polarization can reach a "tipping point" at which external threats, such as pandemics, no longer drive people together but instead become further sources of strife that spiral out of control"
You think?
Clearly, the root cause is the rationalists and their "scientific" lies about so-called "viruses" and "vaccines" and hoaxed hospital deaths. If they hadn't pushed empiricism down the people's throats you wouldn't see this backlash.
The insistence on a single empirical reality independent of personal and group preferences is perhaps the purest expression of "elitist presumption" possible.
Lies go a long away, waxliberty. You're one such promoter of lies. Repent.
To me, no one person can fit the Democrat or Republican stereotype.
Even though my family has been Republican since Lincoln, I'm pro-choice, support same-sex marriage, attend a mainline Protestant church, trust big corporations, went to a very selective and liberal University, and can be damn elitist. I really irritate people who think women can't be in the clergy.
Yet, I won't drive a car made by a foreign automaker (although my Chevy was made in Canada), think China should pay retributions for Covid-19, think we shouldn't talk to Russia about their security concerns.
The country is pretty divided along population density lines. The more dense the more progressive/democrat. The less dense the more conservative and libertarian. Leaving each other alone is unlikely, because the issue is not only vastly diametrically opposed important first principles but power sharing. The first step is to acknowledge that compromise in principles is not going to happen. The second step is in agreeing that, like countries of diametrically opposed values, you can cooperate to your advantage. A couple of ideas: Redefining democracy and power where the most numerous can be checked by the least numerous. For instance the value of a vote in less populated areas may be of greater weight. Or, redrawing state boundaries. If the goal is the preservation of the union we need to get serious about who has power. If the goal is "one ring to rule them all" you will not have to hold your breath for long.
That’s exactly why build back better is going after federal tax dollars to bail out the New York City housing authority. New York City taxpayers should be given the burden of new taxes for NYCHA and the subway or mass transit authority. New York City votes for progressive programs that are mismanaged, and fall into disrepair , even though thousands - -for decades - -of city employees with high paychecks and pensions can’t seem to make anything work, complete incompetence. When progressive programs fail, and they always do, they go after federal tax dollars…socialism. They’re going after suburbs with an aggression that is Antifa.
This civil war was started by the other side, not us. Lots of people were on the frontlines of this conflict long before Biden or Trump. The parents who flipped VA red at least temporarily and Latinos who defected to Trump or the GOP have crossed over to our side because the woke left is starting to invade their territories. These things happen when radicals burn down cities and engage in cultural purge.
Here's a WILD idea - why don't we try to actually win this civil war? Surely, libertarians who deride the "drug warriors" and urge people to disobey unjust laws don't grudge anyone some militant rhetoric? People in hard times turn to those who fight and rally to their cause, that's why Trump and Sanders have dedicated factions while the LP tries to nominate someone dancing in their underwear.
If your country can't secure its borders, handle inflation, or properly educate their young, it has zip future. And the enemy is keen on free healthcare, college, housing and even food while they still try to defund cops. We're not in involved in just abortion or "war on Christmas" or some loud noise cultural issues that doesn't affect most people. A lot of what happens now can determine the nations' future. NY is starting to die slowly because it can't handle all the covid restrictions. CA isn't that far off.
Says the anonymous keyboard warrior who would wet his pants and run if confronted by real soldiers in real life.
Vernon is an abject pussy, thus everyone else are abject pussies.
You remind me of transgender activists--anyone who won't participate in your fantasy is evil and your enemy.
You remind me of sarcasmic
I'm looking forward to it!
Climate change is a challenge to the survival of our society?
"Another" insurrection?
Seems like the "experts" cited in the article have some blind spots of their own.
Nonsense. Democrats will lost 50-75 House seats in November and probably the Senate, the Jotard will become a lame duck, and gridlock will thrive, thank goodness.
There will be no civil war, there was no insurrection, and things will go back to normal.
Lol
Totes dude.
Trust the system!
Totalitarians are definitely going to run out of steam and stop trying to enslave and/or kill you and your family. Trends aren't even a thing, it'll just go back to normal...
May?
How is this even a question? The second war was set ever since the supposed conclusion of the first. This has always been coming and has never been avoidable. It is incredible it has been pushed back this far. These thieving people aren't gonna just stop and go away. They have to be stopped and MADE to go away. That usually means killing, historically speaking. I've been waiting on it for 30 years.
Please, enough bullshit about an impending "civil war". If the government and the mainstream media weren't constantly stirring up shit, the vast majority of Americans would get along just fine. Day-to-day, we work with, do business with, and interact with all sorts of other people, peacefully. Ask yourself who gains from all this trouble. Think about it. If a "civil war" were actually to happen, it would be more like the Irish "Troubles", including cyberwarfare, instead of the Civil War.
And those three generals? Two two-stars and a one-star, hardly senior generals. Not impressed.
1000000 ^
The lying conniving Left wouldnt last a week.
The Cons have 430 MILLION weapons and 20 BILLION rounds of ammo.
The Left have Starbucks cups and rainbow flags.
When any country in the world except the US wants to have a border policy to benefit the country’s citizens, that’s normal. When the US wants the same thing, Reason calls it "thuggish nationalism".
Anti-American double standards are anti-American. Period.
The "war" would last about two weeks, few battles and a total loss for the woke left.
The war won't be against the "woke left". It will be against the armed forces of the USA, federal marshals, and state and municipal police. I agree it would be over quickly.
"The Atlantic" senior editor Ron Brownstein said of "Let's go Brandon": "It's about insurrection."
Um, WTF?
“ If we reach that point, we cannot unite even in the face of war, climate change, pandemics, or other challenges to the survival of our society."
Um, lady, this may come as a shock to you, but getting into (always overseas) wars, and the way government has of imposing “solutions “ to both climate change and the pandemic upon the rest of us and our living standards are all HIGHLY, HIGHLY POLARIZING! Debates surrounding those have been extremely contentious going back decades (at least with interventionist wars and ecological scares). Picking those examples instead of, say, a massive terrorist attack on US soil or an unprecedented natural calamity affecting a huge swath of the nation, as the most logical, “reasonable” points for us all to “unite as a people” is a bit of a tell.
Their "solutions" to neurotic obsessions such as climate change and the cold/flu pandemic are indeed acts of war.
https://twitter.com/EricMMatheny/status/1475577864800112641?t=Fmjhr2WMO8ICp84RQrVoLw&s=19
Remember how the media lost its mind because Trump waited a day or two to issue a statement in Charlottesville? Waukesha had six times the deaths and the media has not once asked Joe Biden to issue a statement. In fact, nobody’s mentioned it since it happened.
Typical leftism
https://twitter.com/cynclagar/status/1475579567637213185?t=jQeOh_CEXb42aHTkuJKlPQ&s=19
What a lovely new world we are living in when you go out for a meal and a squad of police barge in, persecute a little boy then demand to see everyone else’s papers. This is the vax passport world so many are begging for. #NotAboutAVirus #NOVAXPASSPORTS
[Video]
https://twitter.com/marceelias/status/1473118873302056961?t=-uhXGY6UJ2GhxdG5Z6HZ5Q&s=19
My prediction for 2022: Before the midterm election, we will have a serious discussion about whether individual Republican House Members are disqualified by Section 3 of the 14th Amendment from serving in Congress.
We may even see litigation.
[Link]
There was a time when only Democrats spent all their waking hours looking to be offended. Something Rush used to point out. Now the disease has affected the right. Case in point, look at the comments dissing Libertarians because they aren't all in with conspiratorial stupid. It reminds me of someone going to a jazz concert and complaining to everyone around them they should be playing pop music. They can't understand why people will not listen to them. My point is this, the people who are aghast there are Libertarian points of view in a Libertarian publication should stop trying to prove they are adding something to the discussion, your not, we have heard it all before. Go get your adversarial kicks with your intellectual equals, try a kindergarten first.
There are many people who are ex military who know all the routes the military can take and know where and how to defeat the enemy.
The same tactics used by the North Vietnamese and ISIS can also be applied here at home.
The U.S. military is a paper tiger. Now nothing more than a transgender outhouse led by incompetent and morally bereft leadership placed there by equally morally bereft liberals. The U.S. hasn't won a war since WW II and the invasion of Grenada hardly counts.
Consider that the U.S. military has become more concerned with trannys than training, it will be easy to defeat. Equipment will be unusable. Planes
This article is false fear mongering even worse than covid porn.
Unless and until hundreds (or thousands) of people are killed or wounded by political violence, America will remain civil.
During 2020, left wing BLM and Antifa rioters killed dozens of innocent people, burned down dozens of buildings, looted hundreds of stores, and caused billions of dollars in property damage.
But after the Democrats refused to criticize any BLM or Antifa riots (even at their party's convention), and after Kamala Harris advocated even more BLM and Antifa riots, Joe Biden was elected President.
Seems like Democrats love political violence against Republicans and anyone else with whom they disagree (who falsely accuse of being white supremacists).
If Democrat DA's simply did the job they swore to do (i.e. uphold the laws), BLM, Antifa and other left wing revolutionaries would never have rioted in hundreds of cities last year.
In sharp contrast, I'm not aware of any so called right wing groups who intentionally harm or kill innocent people, who loot or burn down stores, or who falsely accuse others of being racists.
"If we can’t learn to leave each other alone, the country may have a violent meltdown."
The truest words I have ever heard muttered at Reason...
If you *really* want peace and prosperity then......
PUT DOWN your Gov-Guns leftards!!!!
Stop pointing them at everyone over everything you can imaginary make-up and corruptibly sell via massive B.S. propaganda.
The USA is a CONSTITUTIONAL Union of Republican States! NOT a Democratic-Nazi Nation.
The USA
is was a CONSTITUTIONAL Union of Republican States!Let's try again:
The USA
iswas a CONSTITUTIONAL Union of Republican States!"If we can't learn to leave each other alone" is hardly a solution. We need to be able to engage each other in a civil manner, and maintain friendships and communicationwith people that we disagree with.
PS, what's with the constant left bashing in the comment section? Do any of you realize that there are left libertarians?
PPS, the nuclear meltdown analogy is awful. "Critical" refers to neutron multiplication, not temperature. And when a light water reactor core does melt due to loss of coolant, it tends to be self-limiting as the jumbled fuel is undermoderated and therefore subcritical. It would be good thing if our political outrages were as safe as nuclear reactors.
"there are left libertarians"
No, there's not. Leftism and liberty cannot co-exist.
Much like the lady on the Delta flight over the weekend who demanded the seated gentlemen put his mask on while he was eating. Although she herself was unmasked, she just would not leave the man alone. After yelling at him repeatedly and ignoring the flight attendant's request to be seated, she finally slapped and scratched him.
The left wants to constantly tell others what to do, and are willing to use force to make sure they are obeyed, and conservatives just want to be free to pursue their lives free of the constant demands of the left.
Do you see the left stopping their demands anytime soon? I don't. Therefore, we go to war.
Easy solution. We institute a covid-opt out. One is free to not get the vaccine and no one will bug them about it, but they are are banned from getting any treatment if they get covid. If they don't like medical science, then they should be just fine with this.
Why does nobody care about black people not being able to get photo IDs, except when it comes to voting? If black people can't get photo IDs, that means there are a whole host of other things they can't do either, like buy booze, fly on airplanes, or open bank accounts, just to name a few.
And OF COURSE low 2016 voter turn outs are due to voter supression and have nothing to do with the fact that the candidate was garbage. 2016 voter turn out was historically low across the board, in both parties, and not just in black districts.
Live-and-let-live cannot be unilaterally sustained.
And if a group has chosen to reject live-and-let-live, as the left has, there can be only one dynamic: kill-or-be-killed.
We now exist in the latter situation, whether you like it or not. Your choice has been taken away.
Eat a bullet.
How about all the people that are in favor of a vaccine mandate get a bullet to the head?
First, I hope you see the giant irony in how your statement and position so encompasses the problem that Tuccille is getting at.
Second, and more important, do you truly believe this position that you espouse? If so, what is your position for say, someone who is overweight suffering from heart disease? Should they be treated or should they also be ignored?
It's really funny how you think this is a "live and let live" solution
Hey, fucktard--how about we do the same with any human stupidity? People are free to ignore financial reality and not get a job, but they are then banned from getting any assistance. If people don't like economics, they should be fine with this--and you, too.
Same with drug users and fatties?
So those who don't like my proposal would like society as a whole to bail out and assist those who make poor decisions? They are ok with people not taking personal responsibility for their choices?
you act as if the medical treatement professionals have no choice to sell their services here.
You want lines? This is the line. Right here.
'Do what we say or die.'
Come get us. There is a throne I wish to rebuild, and your severed heads would look fabulous under my feet.
No. M’kay?
How about this. You progs crawl back under your rock and stfu. If you don’t, it gets real fucking bad for you.
It's an "easy solution" because you didn't actually think about what that means beyond making yourself look enlightened and your hate for other people.
Your terms are acceptable. Yet you won't actually leave us alone, will you?
How about I’m free not to get vaccinated, and if you don’t like, you can go tuck yourself?
That’s what I’m doing right now, and it’s working great. Feel free to imagine vaccine mandates and masturbate as much as you want.
Cool, lets just extrapolate that out to other things that personal choices can cause (even though in your example, your case is weak for causation)
- abortion: if you get preg due to your own choices and not taking widely available and cheap birth control (community clinics will usually do free IUDs that are 99% effective) then you keep the baby. Sorry, your choice.
- heart disease, diabetes II, etc: sorry you ate bad food and didnt exercise
- lung cancer: sorry you smoked too much
- drunk drivers? Sorry no treatment for them either
What has been so fun about this take by the resident lefties is watching the hate flow through them and just wish ill of anyone who would dare not take their medicine like a good little commie.
For every other personal choice an individual makes that ends up hurting them: bad food, obesity, smoking, drinking, doing drugs, fucking everyone and getting STDs, pregnancy, homelessness; its SOCIETY's fault, and the person is absolved of all blame, no responsibility. Its mean society and the person is to be celebrated as a poor victim and we have to help them. But dont take your govt mandated meds? Then all of a sudden they are happy to dig you a shallow grave. Its almost like the only thing they care about is you lining up and saying "yes sir", and controlling everyone, and not anyones health at all...
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Only 3% of the population was actively involved in the revolutionary war. And I imagine if the democrats push too far it wouldn’t be too difficult to see at least that percentage of the population ready to throw down.
I would like to see how she reacts if this policy were applied to abortion.
Can you take an easy and free shot that will drastically cut the risks of obesity and heart disease?
Or drunk drivers injured in a crash that they caused which also killed a family of four?
We must live in different parts of the country. I live in red state and a purple local area and there are disagreements on how covid is handled and other topics, but I don't see anything how you describe. Perhaps I'll be blindsided by it, or, perhaps what you describe is a minority, and like the sixties, according to my mother, the radicals made the news but most people went on with their lives as usual.
I mostly agree with you. I'm still holding out hope, perhaps naively, that we'll elect someone that respects freedom. As Ron Paul used to say, "freedom and liberty unites us, collectivism divides us." Though I find it unbelievable there will be any sort of reconciliation as the left just will not tolerate any dissenting opinions.
I agree we're already in a Civil War and that we're headed the way of South Africa.
Those radicals now run the government.
Well, power, sure. But also elitism, virtue signaling, victim status, and avoidance of all risk.
GG, thanks for being the example for my point.
Choosing to exercise and eat better will actually make you healthy.
Taking a shot that doesn't even stop the virus but also has a risk of heart inflammation does not.
As usual, you miss the point.
Strictly speaking, yes you can cut all of those risks to zero with one shot. The decision only lies in which caliber to use.
They won’t leave you alone.
Eh, your penchant for the "what if" positioning is part of the problem. All I can know is what I see with my own eyes. And at the grocery store we are all their living and keeping our thoughts to ourselves. And even if there was a person who disagreed with me politically, they ain't giving up their day at the store or really any concern over stopping me and my beliefs.
We are taught by a corporate media and political class that around every tree is an enemy just waiting to ruin "our way of life." Yet, no one in public actually behaves that way.
There will always be extremists willing to do just about whatever, but the vast, vast, vast majority of this country is so far away from taking up arms against their neighbor over undefinable issues that I have no concerns.
Really, and ironically, the only concerns for such things come from people like you who go, "but what if that guy at the store wants to kill me because of my beliefs?" It's that attitude that actually does lead to violence.
Show me someone who listens to Republican talk radio and I'll show you someone who would gladly murder anyone they consider to be a leftist. Just look at the comments.
GG,
I'm not a libertarian. But I know what being a libertarian means. Just like I understand where Repubs and Dems are coming from and why they believe what they believe.
My jaw was on the floor because I witnessed astute political people talking about others like they knew them, yet they had no idea. I was astounded by the extreme positioning that they took on something they didn't understand. Kind of like what you are doing with me.
So, thanks for continuing to prove my points.
Actually, I could direct you to numerous people who listen to conservative talk radio and don't believe that in the slightest.
I'm amazed how many people here in the Reason commentariat are so susceptible to the generic outrage baiting and over-generalizing that the political class and corporate media engages in. It's really kind of sad.
Cite?
I’m thinking more Iraq/northern Ireland than American civil war.
I don’t think there will be any lines.
Sure, GG. Whatever you need to tell yourself.
Actually, I could direct you to numerous people who listen to conservative talk radio and don't believe that in the slightest.
And I can direct you to several who do. Granted they are on the extreme, but they do exist. And they have guns.
It's not that I don't think extremists exist. They have throughout time. My point is that the extremists don't hold remotely the oversized power that the political class and media want you to believe.
You're the one who so radically opposes libertarians. Why don't you tell me?
“Political tags — such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth — are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surly curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort.”
― Robert A. Heinlein
Libertarians are the surly curmudgeons. The rest are the same in that they want people to be controlled. They only argue over who, how, and what.
Oh I agree with you there. But it doesn't take a lot of people. Just enough to scare the rest into apathy.
Sure I did.
Yeah, but we are far from that point. Sure, it could happen in the future, but not anytime soon. The vast majority of people laugh at both AOC and MTG. Sure, they may not be vocal about it in order to play the politically correct game. But that also means they are very far from taking up arms to fight for either one of those morons.
Yes, but the extremists in this country are comically absurd and don't have that much persuasive power. They would have to persuade you to hate your neighbor. That doesn't remotely exist right now. The reason, is that the picture of the country that you see portrayed on TV is vastly different than the country you see at the local store.
You call this ignorance (because you are a conspiracy addled extremist), but it's simply reality.
But I thought seeing things with your own eyes is ignorance? Is that not so now?
Bingo. The left will never stop and they will never leave us alone (us being anybody to the right of AOC).
We need to split up, now, when it can be peaceful.
Its the only solution that doesn't lead to war or oppression.
What cards did you lay on the table? You hate libertarians, yet you can't define them?
He did define them as the worst of both parties put together.
Which I find to be interesting. Libertarians agree with the left here and there on personal freedom, and agree with the right here and there on economic freedom.
If libertarians are the worst of both sides, then it appears GG has a thing against freedom.
sarcasmic,
It is interesting that you can read GG's position that way.
He has never opposed them shit weasel. You must be sarcs Canadian friend.
I unblocked everyone except the three stooges to be different for a change.
And I'm puzzled why you are calling me "faggot." Are you still in middle school?
Actually there's no puzzle. I won the argument and you're resorting to personal attacks because you can't admit that I'm right. Typical.
JesseAz,
How about reading GG's explanation of libertarians above before you make such a comment.
And as GG stated clearly talk to 100 libertarians and get 100 different answers.
Are you even aware of the fight between the Mises caucus and the big L party at the moment?
You never answered Geiger's question. Answer it.
They're not the ones to worry about. There are millions of people who still believe the election was stolen. They harass their elected representatives based upon what what their cult of personality tells them, and they won't accept the results of the next presidential election if it doesn't go their way.
I see what you are saying, but at the end of the day, the millions buying into the stolen election canard still aren't violent revolutionaries that will spark a civil war. They just latched on to something that allows them to not have to accept the results of the election. That's occurred on the left many times as well. Granted, not to the level of Trump's situation, but enough to demonstrate a lot of it is hot air with little bit behind it.
Many people talk big games in this country, but few actually follow through.
The BLM riots made a lot of people apathetic and even gave the groups tens of millions of dollars.
Find a right wing group funded for riots like they were.
And sarc continues to deny the ele tion issues as if there were none. Illegally changed voting rules. Thousands of double voters. Election officials on tape saying to destroy or fabricate evidence.
Let's just ignore it all huh.
For all vaccines?
Or just the one?
Carrie Nation circa 1916 would like to congratulate you and would like to suggest you poison the alcohol to really drive home the point that alcohol is bad.
The hospital is a service, provided by people who choose to provide a service (doctors, nurses, etc), and utilized by people who desire that service (patients).
Where is the bailing out?
Now do abortion. And when you're done doing abortion, do AIDS. Then, do welfare and food stamps.
Yes, much of the founding of this country was based on libertarian principles. Classical liberalism takes a lot of ideas from libertarianism concepts.
The base of libertarianism is to be left alone and to be wary and preventative of large government. This is an idea starting point for the creation of any good government.
And your assertion that it's saying the same thing as communism just hasn't been done right is a fallacy, as it literally required you to change the premise in order to assert it.
No where have I argued that libertarianism would work, but that it just hasn't been applied properly. I said libertarianism doesn't work in practice no matter how you try it. The same is true for communism. I said that libertarianism is a good starting point as it leads to better forms of government than communism. Thus, communism is not a good starting point as where it leads is continuously worse forms of government.
You realize you are using the same politically expedient arguments you decry above right? Lol.
Is this like when atheists say they understand religion better than the religious?
You used the term trump cultist for 2 years dumbass. Even when discussing tax cuts. Lol.
Dude, ease up on the butthurt.
It was found on puritan religious principles and a hard work ethos. It believed in mankind striving to be and build better. It sought group dynamics when necessary for efficiency. It was not anarchist.
JesseAz,
No where did I claim it was anarchist.
I didn't say you did, but your description of libertarianism not being found on either side is wrong.
One side seeks to expand as policy while the other has sides seeking to reduce legislation, policies, and laws. But you essentially equate the two. They aren't equal.
Youre descending into a golden mean fallacy.
I would love to here who you think the hardcore rightests are here to prove you're arguing from a position of honesty.
Saying the left is worse than the right is not hard-core right wing thought but based on estimations of the two parties.
We know who people like sarcssmic claim are those.
JesseAz,
Where did I say libertarianism can't be found on either side? What is wrong with you at this point?
If you keep engaging with JesseAZ you will be saying "Where did I say...?" A LOT.
Is this your only debate tactic?
It's not just what I see at the grocery store, it's what everyone sees. My god, stop trying so hard not to understand basic arguments.
Question, do you purposefully miss points or do you actually miss them and not realize it?
So, GG, tell me where at the grocery store that people go that is hyper politized and segregated and resulting in fights amongst differing political tribes?
Ah.
BLM has a ton of power.
Whatever you need to tell yourself.
@Inquisitive Squirrel
He's not wrong, you know.
I'm trying to figure out why you think you're the one true libertarian.
GG asked above and you dodged it.
You made the claim.
Sorry, know what the one true libertarianism is.
JesseAZ is not worth engaging. The majority of his comments contain the word "you" because he doesn't argue with what you say. He argues against you as a person to put you on the defensive, and now you're wrestling with a pig. When you wrestle with a pig you get dirty and the pig enjoys it.
Don't wrestle with pigs.
I don't think I'm the one true libertarian. I actually specifically explained to GG that I'm not a libertarian. Doesn't mean that you can't understand where other political philosophes are coming from. That was the whole point of my initial post, that people were violently against libertarians, but they didn't even know what a libertarian was. The point that they made libertarians caricatures rather than understanding where libertarians are coming from.
Dude, again, you are striving to disagree with me and in doing so having to resort to clearly wrong strawman positions for me. Time to let that go.
I followed up with the correction before you posted IS.
Youre the one engaging in agreement with sarc to further his golden mean fallacy.
If you think you understand what libertarianism is, lay it out so we can have an honest discussion.
I already have above.
Oh, you're just angry that sarc and I are agreeing. You do realize sarc had me blocked until today because of my disagreements previously with him?
Ironically, I've had the best discussion with sarc today than anyone else. We actually discussed rather than grasping at absurdities in order to result in a name-calling fest.
I had you blocked for joining the girls in calling me names. Glad I unblocked you.
Dude, again, you are striving to disagree with me and in doing so having to resort to clearly wrong strawman positions for me. Time to let that go.
He won't let that go because it's all he has. He makes strawman arguments, and calls you a liar when you disagree. That's why he was the first person I muted. It is literally impossible to discuss ideas with him.
So this is the second time you've refused to outright clarify your position. Why?
And you agree with sarc as he openly lies about others here. Lol. This is why I laugh.
I explained clearly why your generalist assertions above were a fallacy and you refuse to clarify IS. Then claim sarc is honestly arguing despite his posts above?
JesseAz,
My position has been clear from the get-go. You're the one striving to not understand in order to fight me because of your hatred for sarc.
I'm not here to get into the middle of whatever beef you have with sarc. I have very much disagreed with him at times and probably called him some names that I regret. But as far as the conversation that he has had with me today on this topic, it has been a good one. And I can appreciate that.
@Inquisitive Squirrel
You never answered JesseAz's question, instead dismissing him as "butthurt". Do better than this. Answer his question.
Maybe sarc can help you out (or not).
This was your first comment
The only political argument I got into over Christmas was literally with a Dem and a Repub about what the definition of a libertarian is. The Dem believe it was an anarchist white supremist and the Repub thought it was an extreme leftist.
My jaw was on the floor talking to them.
This is a later one;
My jaw was on the floor because I witnessed astute political people talking about others like they knew them, yet they had no idea.
Youre the one claiming anyone that disagrees with you is extreme without an actual example.
What debate do you think you're having? You've dodged the one actual debate here on what libertarianism is. I actually posited my views above.
So do you want to continue "debating" your way or honestly?
Messed up italics. Yours were both regarding jaws.
Where did I say that someone who disagrees with me is extreme?
Are you at all capable of engaging with what I actually write rather than making up strawman positions?
I literally posted it.
So let's discuss libertarianism.
Describe what you think it is.
I stated above, federalism is the closest we have to a working form of libertarianism. It requires power to be closer to the person and not centralized in a central area. People free to move or chose more free places to live. Idealiam is ultimately authoritarian, so you give people choices through local power. Community, city, then state, little federal, and none global. Our current system being pushed by the left is purely opposite.
So your turn. Describe it.
I would agree with that description. And, ironically, that is the description that I provided to the Dem and Repub that I was arguing with.
And yes, the left is pushing the opposite right now. As I also explained above in another comment.
You're trying really hard to disagree with me, when we don't really disagree. I don't get it, other than you have a personal issue with sarc and you're now imputing that on me.
Are you at all capable of engaging with what I actually write rather than making up strawman positions?
No, he is not.
No, I'm pointing out how your agreement with architect is a means to push the same thing you decried. Have you not seen his half dozen posts regarding what I've stated? He is a dishonest shitweasel. You agreeing with him without clarification extends that assertion.
Glad we are in agreement on the edges of policy, but would have been better to clarify at the outset instead of extending generalities and dodging requests to clarify.
I am still curious as to who you believe are the hardcore Republicans here. Most of them left after the election. The only ones pushing that line now are sarc, jeff, and Mike.
Agreement w sarc*
If there is ever going to be a "libertarian" moment, it will be a Republican moment.
That came and went with the TEA Party, which was immediately coopted by talk radio stooges. Just like reasonable police reform was coopted by race baiters.
No, it is not.
When you’re a socialist like Molly, you assume services are provided by government edict.
Uh no. It is extremely rare the patients pay their own bills. The bills are socialized through insurance so a large number of people pay.
Sure. Let's do all vaccines.
From what I've seen, Mike is center-left.
"socialized through insurance"
Oh, sorry, thought I was speaking to someone who understands English.
I have a solution to that:
You’re free to consume any medicine you want, as long as you can convince medical providers to provide it.
Live-and-let-live.
The lefty is worried about people who make poor decisions.
It's too late. It will be oppression. We are heading into a long dark night of authoritarianism and poverty. I'm glad I'm not young.
Not quite, you've still got a choice: submit, kill or be killed. Not a good choice but the one on offer.
oh great, are we gonna go through the whole 9mm vs45acp thing again
also, if its racist to require ID to6 vote, isnt it also racist to require ID to buy a gun
9mm is for Eurotrash and the street thugs in Chiraq.
In the Free World, traditionalists use .45, modernists use 10mm.
Don’t be a piker. A real caliber war is 7.62x51 vs. 6.5 Creedmoor.
Yes, which is why the KKK started requiring permits, background checks and ID to buy guns. The modern KKK is simply continuing their campaign.
No, he's right,
They are VERY trying.
If you submit you've just chosen to be killed. You're still in the second situation, you've just given up.
there was no American Civil war.
Civil is among populations.
Lincoln used the US Military to murder Citizens
Urban Cosmo Islands are the future for the left. Most of even New York State is Red. As soon as counties start to leave blue states for adjacent red states which is possible w/o Federal approval (nothing in the Constitution allows the Feds to decide on State County migration..the national divorce will start in earnest. Not sure we ever get to that point or if one really wants to
But, but but....
The cities cannot live independently.
Case in point: New York City derives 4/5 of its water from 3 upstate counties.
Schoharie, Delaware and Otsego.
Those three counties voted "Trump" by more than 20 points.
So...we'd have Blue America completely dependent on their hated enemies in Red America for food, water and energy.
A situation like that can't last long.
Seems like MollyGodiva has no answer to this.
You make a very good point. 20# of a good explosive would destroy New York City. How many other cities could be destroyed my such a small act? Roads, power lines, pipe lines anyone of which could turn cities into disserted waste lands. The army and police can't protect all of these weak links. Just convince the truckers the roads aren't safe to drive and starvation for the cities will soon follow.