Food Trucks Still Being Squeezed Out by Local Governments
Detroit leaders throw around words like "fairness" and "equity" while shielding big restaurants from smaller competition.

Last week, Detroit's city council introduced new rules that will allow food trucks to operate in more parts of the city beginning next spring.
"From an equity standpoint and from a food access standpoint, we believe food trucks should be able to operate in public spaces across the city," city councilor Raquel Castañeda-Lopez, who introduced the measure, told the Detroit Free Press. I agree.
Some advocates for downtown Detroit appear quite vaguely pleased.
"Not being against an ordinance but important to have the clarity to what can and cannot take place in the city street but supporting fairness and harmony," Eric Larson, CEO of the Downtown Detroit Partnership, told the Detroit Free Press. "We have to continue to find ways to support all of the small businesses equitably."
While words such as "fairness and harmony" and "equitably" make for a nice word salad, they mask the true, protectionist spirit underlying the new ordinance.
"Food trucks must be 200 feet away from existing restaurants and 300 feet from entertainment and sports arena areas," the Freep report indicates, also noting that food trucks may no longer operate after 11 p.m. That's progress?
Maybe to Larson, whose nebulous, we kinda sorta like it remarks aren't a huge surprise, given that Downtown Detroit Partnership's member list includes a host of giant companies and traditional food-truck opponentsâincluding brick-and-mortar restaurateurs and the realty groups that rent space to them.
Indeed, in discussions of expanding food truck access to other parts of Detroitâor any city or town in Americaâthe devil's in the details.
Just a couple days after the city council vote, American Coney Island, a brick-and-mortar hot dog joint in Detroit that's operated since 1917, tweeted out its displeasure at having to compete, for the time being, with a "fleet of unexpected food trucks parked along our street." Owner Grace Keros, Deadline Detroit reported, "was particularly concerned about the trucks that sell hot dogs. She said her neighbor Lafayette Coney Island was also upset." Lafayette Coney Island and American Coney Island, brick-and-mortar neighbors for more than 100 years, each sell hot dogs. (Read that sentence again.)
A host of withering comments greeted American Coney's tweet, noting the hot dog restaurant doesn't own the street, and that competition and "CHOICE" are, you know, good things.
Those commenters get it. Radius restrictions have always been about illegally protecting brick-and-mortar restaurants from competition. Nothing else.
Detroit's hardly alone. City councilors in Beatrice, Neb., south of Lincoln, are mulling how to regulate food trucks that operate in the city. Though at least one councilor lauded food trucks as "a bright spot in the community," the Lincoln Journal Star reported this week, the council appears set on making sure those bright spots don't park anywhere near a brick-and-mortar restaurant in the city.
"The ordinance would prevent mobile food vending within 50 feet of a food establishment, though Councilor Rick Clabaugh recommended changing that to 100 feet," the Journal Star report noted.
50 feet isn't enough? Why not 100 feet? Why not 300 feet? Or a mile? Or in some other city?
Nearly a year ago, I discussed the case of a brick-and-mortar restaurant owner who wanted her town, Seymour, Ind., to restrict food trucks because, she said, her restaurant "can't compete with Chick-fil-A," the national restaurant chain, which occasionally parked a food truck in town.
"What is the point of having them in downtown Seymour when we have restaurants here that are trying to grow and strive to make downtown better?" Brewskies owner Lori Keithley asked at the time.
"The point?" I wondered? "Well, it's competition and choice. But some who can't or won't compete throw up their hands and ask the government to limit choice by stifling competition. That's protectionism."
"We'd love food trucks," critics seem to be saying, "if they'd just park far, far away from any potential customers."
While the pandemic has decimated the restaurant industry, I noted last year, "rather than making life easier for brick-and-mortar restaurantsâsay, by lifting barriers to entry or by making it easier and less costly for restaurants to operateâmany cities and towns have decided instead to make life harder for food trucks."
Food trucks are a welcome addition to any city or neighborhood. They're alsoâas recent examples in Bridgeport, Dearborn, and Centerville (outside Dayton) remind usâa great way for entrepreneurs to test out concepts that can grow into one or more brick-and-mortar restaurants. While consumers would be foolish to leave food trucks aloneâso many of them serve really great foodâlawmakers and regulators should just leave them be.
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Crony capitalism is the best capitalism. I mean, who really benefits from competition? (And how many food truck operators fund city council candidates?)
I can see some of the counterarguments though.
No, the restaurants don't own the street. But neither do the food trucks, and yet they use public facilities as their semi-private stomping grounds.
Which, I'll fully admit, I don't know how I feel about that. Is this the way the commons should work, or is this a tragedy of the commons scenario? Like, there seems to be at least some conflict here on a libertarian level of letting a private business use public space for their private commercial activity.
"This is everybody's sidewalk, which I just so happen to be blocking off by having a huge crowd gather on while they order and wait for and consume food."
If the food trucks have a competitive advantage over the brick and mortars, it may be that trying to protect the latter is a buggy whip scenario, or maybe the city just needs to dial back some of the bullshit they inflict on the brick and mortars.
The best setup I've seen for food trucks on my own observation has always been when they have ended up partnered with an existing private business. For example, there are any number of breweries here in town (Albuquerque) that don't have a kitchen, and aren't especially near any other restaurants, that invite a rotating selection of food trucks to show up. That seems to work very well for both parties.
There's also a junkyard here that has a food truck in the parking lot from about 0900 to 1500 daily, and that thing is *always* busy. Not bad burritos, either. It's certainly more convenient than getting in your car and going somewhere else entirely.
Ultimately, I suppose the libertarian position is that if there's regulatory BS that's drowning the brick and mortars, that burden should be reduced, rather than inflicting it on the food trucks.
Or possibly, that as someone who is not a restauranteur, there's more to it than I know about and I should hold off on having an opinion on a subject I don't really know.
*shrug*
Good points. And while I share some of your ignorance and uncertainty, I will default to letting the customers decide. If people want to go downtown and sit for a meal with table service, fine. If others want to grab something from a truck and sit in less formal settings, or even eat while walking, fine. And if those choices lead to the demise of a private business, then also fine.
Yeah, my general instinct is to let the food trucks do their thing with minimal interference. I'm just trying to see "both sides", heh.
You relish the thought of more hotdog options?
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The brick-and-mortar operation has to pay real estate tax for the upkeep of the street out front that potentially a competitor can operate on. The competitor doesn't have to pay tax on frontage for that bit of street, just fuel tax for the road to get to that street.
Perhaps you need to rethink your libertarian presumptions if you think it proper for the city to own the roads and sidewalks, and by extension, control who gets to use them.
Whether it's proper or not, that arrangement is not going away any time soon, and controversies like the present one won't help get rid of it sooner. We need some transitional ideas to help us get there.
Your idea of transition seems to be "abide by the present and don't try to change anything."
No, it's to try to mitigate as far as possible the effects of statism while living in a world where its premises are broadly accepted.
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Perhaps you need to rethink the charges that private road owners would impose on Food Trucks. Food trucks free ride on a public infrastructure. That may be a net societal benefit, but they are quite clearly saving costs by utilizing public ways.
Unless a brick-and-mortar restaurant raises, grows, harvests, butchers, and processes wll of it's raw materials on premises, that restaurant, too, uses the roads to get those raw materials. Also, food truck owners pay property taxes on wherever they park, wherever they get truck maintenance and repairs, wherever they cook, wherever they get their raw materials, etc.
Ultimately, there are no "free riders" on paying for roads or on paying property taxes. As long as that is the case, let both brick-and-mortar restaurants and food trucks operate and compete in any manner compatible with each other's liberty, and property rights.
Perhaps the two operations will overlap and merge completely. Even many franchise brick-and-mortar restaurants have mobile operations for food festivals, sporting events, business conventions, etc., as well as sponsor NASCAR, IndyCar, and other competitive sports vehicles. Why limit food trucks to just the big guys?
Yes, the best setups are those where a business has its own parking lot and invites food trucks onto them. The irony is when ordinances forbid certain kinds of coordination between them.
For instance there are the aforementioned lunch wagons that serve the employees of a business or of a bunch of them in a business park, plus anyone else who happens by. I think health and safety regulations keep their relationship at arm's length.
Similarly the aforementioned brew pub arrangement. There's a Viking-themed microbrewery near me, Angry Eric, with a limited license that started as a public tour arrangement to allow service on the premises (as well as growler fills) on limited days. They have food trucks on their lot, but have to avoid certain forms of coordination so as not to run afoul of their licensing conditions.
Those Vikings should storm City Hall for separating them from their desire mix of grub and grog! Here's where the January 6th Shaman would have done the most good!
I think he's going to be busy for the next 41 months, but maybe he'd let you borrow the horns.
Only if it's all organic food and grog
He might need the horns inside the joint more than I would out here.
They seem to be on the horns of a dilemma there.
All depends on who's ox is being gored.
I would say that the provisos of " Stand Your Ground" law apply here. Owners of food trucks should be free to sell anywhere a vehicle driver has a legal right to park.
Naturally, this would exclude parking in the competitor's parking lot unwelcomed or parking in the middle of traffic or parking anywhere that inhibits the flow of pedestrians. Otherwise, let food trucks go for it!
You are correct that the best arrangements are those with existing businesses, such as factories, mills, office complexes, and construction sites. Fairs, conventions, swap meets, flea markets, races, outdoor sports, and other such gatherings are perfect for food trucks!
Perhaps driving through neighborhoods with pre-made, pre-packaged food items like the Ice Cream Man would be perfect too, again, allowing for the free flow of traffic by other vehicles and pedestrians.
Eddie Murphy Ice Cream Man Animated
https://youtu.be/Fd9bwFJ957w
I bought some corn tortillas from an *ahem!* "informal economy" truck vendor who came in my neighborhood back in the Nineties. I probably was feeling more daring than usual to buy something from a food truck with no grade certificate, but they were husk-wrapped and very delicious!
Food truck owners could also offer a subscription service for individual residences or businesses who want dishes on a regular basis. That way, the food truck owner could just park in driveways or parking lots to serve, out of everyone else's way.
Charles' Chips had a subscription service when I was a kid that kept my Grandparent's cannister filled with delicious chips and cookies every week!
Charles' Chips 1984 Commercial
https://youtu.be/TCTvGN110mg
There are a million better options for ironing out problems related to food trucks without categorically banning them. Let A Hundred Food Trucks Zoom!
> Food truck owners could also offer a subscription service for individual residences or businesses who want dishes on a regular basis.
Hah! My girlfriend has a relationship with something like this in Berlin. There's a guy who takes orders and makes deliveries of hummus and other related dishes. I think he also does baba ganoush and pita, and a couple other things. She refers to him as her hummus dealer.
It's only sort of parallel, in that he doesn't have a vehicle that he goes and parks for walk up customers, it's all "order in advance" type stuff.
You, her, he, and a regular supply of hummus. This sounds like wonderful relationship with many yummy possibilities. đ
It's pretty good hummus. Even if I'm not nearly as into hummus as she is. Heh.
What tragedy? They're serving food, not tearing up the street.
They aren't tearing the street up, it's true. My thought was more about (and this is informal language, and as I said before, I'm still working through my thoughts on the subject) "overuse" of public resources. Depending on how the locale is constructed, when they come in and camp a spot, they might be blocking the usage for other people.
I'm seeing a mild (and perhaps erroneous) parallel with homeless people who camp on a sidewalk. Perhaps that's a faulty comparison.
I'm generally positively disposed towards food trucks. I'm definitely still trying to work through the implications from a libertarian standpoint. I'm not particularly attached to any conclusion I have so far, which is part of why I'm trying to talk through it with like-minded people.
The 'tragedy' is a metaphor much the same way a moral 'hazard' doesn't mean anyone falls off a cliff, gets dissolved in acid, or has a piano fall on their head. The same way the 'invisible railroad' wasn't actually invisible.
Why is such 'camping' allowed/excluded for food? Why can't the local mom-and-pop hardware store camp out in front of home depot? Why can't Target camp in front of Wal-mart? Why can't Exxon camp in front of Superchargers? That's the tragedy/hazard.
As a child when I first heard about the Underground Railroad, I don't know how many years passed before I realized it wasn't a literal subway. Or that the Holland Tunnel didn't go to Holland; even when I found that out, I thought, of course, "It connected New Holland," rather than that it was named after someone.
They mined it for the raw ingredients needed to make hollandaise sauce.
And then they exported the hollandaise sauce to the East through that hole that goes all the way to China.
Well you'd have to figure if they had the equipment to excavate all that distance from the Deep South to Canada, surely they could have also used the equipment to destroy the plantatioms and get free.
When I was in, like, first grade, I wrote an essay about âthe shot heard âround the worldâ focusing on how amazing it was that people all over the world could hear a gunshot.
Not erroneous, in fact it's such a close parallel it's really just another case of the same issue, which is, as long as a government entity is recognized as owning a facility (especially a thoroughfare as in the case of a street or sidewalk) in the name of administering it for the common good of subjects of said government (at least some of whom are taxed for its upkeep, directly or indirectly), then when there are competing and mutually exclusive potential uses for said facility, what to decide and how to decide it. Doesn't matter much whether it's bums or business camping on it, it's serving somebody who can be said to have just as much right to it as anybody else.
Suppose you wanted to reverse the process that usually started this arrangement, when a private developer deeded the streets to the municipality. Would you say, OK, whoever now owns the parcels in some arbitrary contiguous chunk of the city now is a shareholder in condominium with them, to own not only their own parcel outright but to share in the streets? Imagine the jockeying and speculation preceding that, and then imagine the politics within each such association henceforth. It's a lot easier to go in one direction — publicization, I guess you could call it — than the other — privatization. But that's because when it becomes res publica, the decisions are deferred and eventually subject to politics.
What tragedy?
The tragedy where the investments of a group of people are plundered for a reason which group neither intended nor approved.
I agree. I prefer that roads (a publicly owned good) be used for actual moving vehicles. I would even like it if parking on roadsides was curbed somewhat. If this were to happen, it would be an opportunity for private private lot owners.
Now, if food trucks want to take up space in private parking lots, (which they do sometimes) then I have no objection to that.
None of this is because I am restauranter, but some of their bitching may actually legitimate. They may have bought their properties with the expectation that the roads they're on (or near) wouldn't be lined with food trucks.
Using roads as a place to set up shop and do business is a 'no' for me. I don't want to see any more of it.
Parking...curbed...I get it.
Pump the brakes on this practice.
To use a term that gets the Gen Zers confused, let's switch gears here.
Again, everything should be within the bounds of private property rights and the right to move freely on public thoroughfares (as long as they exist.) If food truck owners respect those bounds, they have a right to operate.
If and where the thoroughfares go private, then, of course, any dealings will be between the individual owners and the food truck drivers.
Worth pointing out that, despite Millennial's idiocy, food trucks are not new. Construction sites, prisons, corporate parking lots, etc., etc., etc. have been served by food trucks for decades. Food trucks parking on public streets in highly-trafficked, restaurant-heavy neighborhoods are *conceptually* fucking over these competitors who've "played by the rules" as well. Not to mention ice cream trucks and even Grubhub and Uber Eats as well. Much of the behavior being defended by 'libertarians' is explicitly a tragedy of the commons.
The example I cited of of Charles' Chips visiting my Grandparents on the regular to refill chip and cookie cannisters was back in the Seventies.
Also, later, as I got work with temp agencies, I noticed that some factories where I worked got visits from food trucks that sold pre-made sandwiches, snacks, and drinks, all thoroughly hygienic and delicious.
(Back in my Grandparent's day, they called the food truck that visited the textile mills "The Dope Wagon" because Coca-Cola was called "Dope," probably because the original formula had cocaine.)
In all cases, the food deliverers were welcome onto private property, and loved by all concerned.
Needless to say, I'm still waiting on the "Tragedy of the Commons" part.
How about, rather, more like the market flux experienced by retail stored when online shopping became a thing? Brix and mortar investment vs a webPage. All of a sudden you find yourself compteing with people not under the same constraints.
IMHO I think food trucks, or anything else, using the commons is fine, as long as they are using them under the same rules as everyone else.
"From an equity standpoint and from a food access standpoint," ... food trucks may no longer operate after 11 p.m. That's progress?
Sure, from a public health standpoint. Eating late at night is bad for you, or so we've been told.
Would that include cunnilingus or fellatio at night? Asking for many friends...
Drinking is mo betta!
And as was established last year, the SARS-CoV-2 virus only spreads at night, hence all the curfews that stopped it cold.
I'm so glad we finally have a President who realizes that international travel restrictions are literally the worst possible way to respond to a pandemic.
A wall will not stop the coronavirus. Banning all travel from Europe â or any other part of the world â will not stop it. This disease could impact every nation and any person on the planet â and we need a plan to combat it.
#LibertariansForBiden
#OpenBorders
#(EspeciallyDuringAPandemic)
Is the 100 days to stop the virus over yet?
In only two more weeks. But wait, thereâs more! If you promise to tell a friend about this, we will throw in another two weeks for free! Operators are standing by.
I'm not so sure:
https://babylonbee.com/news/racist-joe-biden-bans-travel-trom-africa
Voters are reporting that they are devastated to learn Biden is just as racist as Trump was when he restricted travel from China. Just like when Trump did it, Biden's racist travel ban is obviously an attempt to keep people of color out of our country while using COVID as an excuse. Sad!
Civil rights groups and various liberal organizations have not yet come out and condemned the racist, xenophobic travel ban as they did during the Trump travel ban. This is probably just because they forgot, or maybe they had too many Thanksgiving leftovers and fell asleep.
If you have a restaurant that canât compete with a food truck, you better up your game.
Damn right. If you're going to government to stifle your competition, then fuck you, you don't deserve to stay in business.
-jcr
Even if government provides the real estate for your competition?
Yes, as long as everyone has an equal opportunity to use that public property, and as long as the food truck doesnât get special treatment versus anyone else wanting to use the property.
Out of you and your employees and customers' pockets.
Yeah, the restaurants should have their own food trucks delivering and serving their own specialties.
Although my store sells groceries, it still isn't convenient to eat from there, since we are perpetually short on open registers. And the deli fare isn't always so good. The closest good restaurants are 10 minutes away and have big lines too. I'd love a fast-food restaurant to have a food truck stop at the parking lot of my store to provide lunch in the middle of our food desert.
Fairness, harmony and equity are just nice words used to justify the use of force against wreckers and kulaks.
Hey, I saw that new streaming show with the 4 old wizards combining forces one last time to make magic and save the world.
They started out fighting with each other over everything, and one of them even quit for a few days. Then the other 3 talked him into rejoining them, and moving to their new hideout.
Then a fifth wizard showed up and started playing the electric piano, and helped them rediscover the old magic just in time to finish their album, climb onto the roof and summon the lightning once again.
And somehow Peter Jackson couldnât find it in himself to edit it all down to, say, a watchable three hours total.
How many times do we need to see a repetition of, say, playing the first few bars of âI Dig a Ponyâ?
It didn't seem too long at all, except when Yoko was wailing into the microphone for some reason.
Pure magic when McCartney plucked the guitar riff of "Get Back" out of thin air, and when Billy Preston showed up and they finally got back to jamming instead of fighting, and when they started recording for real and all of sudden Lennon went from bored and tired and too cool for school to being the boss again, making sure they kept playing stuff until they got it right.
It was the winter of 69...
Paul and some guys from 'pool
had a band and they tried real hard
Georgy quit, and Johnny got married
should have known, they'd never get far....
Somehow I had never heard Harrisonâs song, âWah Wahâ, written the very night he âquitâ the Beatles.
Stumbled across it because Iâve been catching up on Southern Rock guitarists, and Derek Trucks does the song live:
https://youtu.be/fQz7SGggd80
Ever heard of St Vincent?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lan-UQfN0zs
She's a guitar goddess who got her start covering that song.
Next fall she'll be opening up for Red Hot Chili Peppers, but the cheapest tickets are like $179. Pass.
She's also gotten kinda.. weird. Like 70s cosplay gone terribly wrong. Or right. I can't tell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5Q_UzwJh1Y&t=21s
I think Iâve run across her videos on the Internet.
Iâm somewhat of a Beatles fan, but not so much that I canât acknowledge that Lennon was just phoning it in with songs like âPonyâ, or that a good deal of the White Album is filler and the whole thing should have been edited down to a single album, or that Paulâs âgranny shitâ like, âYour Mother Should Knowâ was not worth recording.
And Iâm also aware that there is LOTS of good music made post whenever it was I went to high school, and LOTS before I was born: Iâve been listening lately to songs like Nat King Coleâs version of âStardustââ amazing!
"Those commenters get it. Radius restrictions have always been about illegally protecting brick-and-mortar restaurants from competition."
You make a good case and then you throw out a dumbass statement like this. What's "illegal" about it?
Looks like we've got some real late fall "global warming" going on in the upper midwestern, like at the Ohio State-Michigan game for example.
Enjoy the games, and Fuck Joe Biden!
I will likely never say this again, butâŠâŠ
Go Blue!
Well, I probably will, but it will be sports related.
When an Ohio State university and a Michigan state university play each other, nobody wins except the tax-sucking staff.
My private university had to give up varsity football in 1960. We couldn't compete with the gubmint-backed teams. Basketball we could still do well at. Even won the NCAA tourney one year.
Go Blue!
Hey now! Don't try Autoerotic Asphixiation! That is not sexy at all! That really would be "Terrible And Unfair!"
Frankly, the adjacent hot dog restaurants should merge, combine the menus, and start their own hotdog food truck. They would have a brick and mortar and be able to reach new customers around the city.
They are not friendly with each other, going into business together is extremely unlikely.
It is a dog eat, dog world.
And for the record, Flint style coney > Detroit style coney anyway.
I like an adaptation of the Chicago dawg. Fuck the mustard; ketchup for the win. No pickles or relish; pickled sweet heat banana peppers instead. Celery salt and raw onions remain. Cheddar or pepper jack. Toast the bun.
I like an adaptation of the Chicago... ketchup for the win
Double void on your opinion. Might as well tell us how you love your beer German-style, with ice in it, and then die.
Ich gern Paulaner ohne EiswĂŒrfel.
Ketchup doesn't belong on anything.
Mustard for the win.
Now look, CE and Mad, ketchup, combined with French's Chili-O Seasoning and a pound of ground round makes the best damn hot dog chili you could ever eat! Way better than that canned Textured Vegetable Protein stuff you get from a lot of concession stands. Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.
"Ketchup combined with French's Chili-O Seasoning is better than canned garbage."
Agreed... maybe.
The Flint style has more Lead in it, so it's not exactly going away easily.
Merging hot dogs? Is this another thread about docking?
Lafayette has no reason to join forced with American. There is a reason American is the one mouthing off on social media. Lafayette is a Detroit institution. American gets the "Fuck, Lafayette is full" spillover.
"Radius restrictions have always been about illegally protecting brick-and-mortar restaurants from competition. Nothing else."
And protecting brick-and-mortar restaurants has always, presumably, been about property taxes.
Do food trucks pay property taxes?
I don't see this mentioned in the article, but it's almost certainly at the center of the problem. Food trucks are cutting off the local government's revenue stream if they aren't paying property taxes.
Until you address that issue, this will continue to be a problem everywhere. Retail zoned properties typically pay higher property tax rates than property zoned for industrial warehouse, commercial office, manufacturing, or residentially zoned properties.
The cities are simply protecting their revenue stream.
P.S. Property taxes are incredibly unfair in all sorts of ways.
The reason senior housing developments that restrict age to 55 and over is because when they do that, the development become exempt from paying school fees to the local school district before they can get a permit. Not having those fees substantially reduces the cost of a condo on a per square foot basis.
Meanwhile, we pay school fees developing industrial warehouse properties. Why? I understand paying our fair share for road maintenance on the routes between the truck docks and the nearest freeway entrances and exist. We pay fees to the fire department because now they'll be committed to putting out any fires in our building. But what is it about building an industrial warehouse that brings more children to town?
Residential units are hit with development fees by the school district substantially--and you pay more fees for houses with more bedrooms and less for two bedroom condos. Still, the reason they hit industrial and office space with development fees for the schools is just because they can. They want to offset the costs to local residents for housing, and they can do that by hitting industrial and office space for those fees.
Retail establishments (like restaurants) get hit with even higher fee rates and even higher property taxes because the establishment generates revenue through direct sales. Put a sign outside your warehouse that you're selling directly to the public, and see how long it takes for the assessor to come to start taxing your property as a retain establishment--or to shut down your sale. Food trucks avoid paying property taxes like Uber drives avoid buying taxi medallions.
The ultimate solution is probably to replace property taxes for retail establishments by cranking up sales taxes--which is politically unpopular.
Everyone who uses municipal services, like the police and the fire department, sends their kids to public schools, uses parks and recreational services, complains about street lights being out, etc., etc., and then turns around and complains about the city hassling food trucks should be ashamed of themselves. But that is pretty typical. I guess food truck patrons are like a lot of Americans--they want to use government services and they want someone else to pay for it.
China doesn't have property taxes. Damn commies.
I'm sure sarc considered that inanity 'clever'.
China does have property taxes and the "owners"
don't even own the property. It's just a long-term lease.
Honestly, regarding your last paragraph, I doubt most people even understand what's actually going on. I suspect a lot of that is completely invisible to them.
Ken, please pay for my food, healthcare, transportation, housing and kidsâ education. And should you complain about it, please also pick up the tab for the FBI agents that will surveil you.
Ken, I can't speak for Detroit, but in North Carolina, all vehicles are subject to property tax and commercial vehicles are subject to even more property tax, as well as CDL requirements depending on the vehicle.
And as I noted elsewhere, food truck owners pay property taxes on all the places where they park, maintain, repair, cook food, and stock their vehicles.
How about cities and localities get fiscally responsible and minimize their taxes as well as open traditionally municipal services to free-market competition? Then, the cities won't need to harass food trucks for an added ounce of flesh.
25 states don't have property taxes on vehicles, and those that do charge rates that are much lower than municipalities do on real estate. Michigan charges 0.59% for vehicle property taxes on vehicles. Detroit charges 4.24% for property taxes on commercial buildings.
0.59% on a $100,000 vehicle is only $590 a year,.
Retail properties of 5,000 sf are typically paying more 718% of that rate.
Meanwhile, food trucks often aren't paying property taxes at all when they're showing up at people's work, and in those places that do charge them rent so a bunch of food trucks can all park in the same place, unimproved parking lots are being assessed for taxes at much lower valuations than built out properties with a building on them.
If 5,000 sf of restaurant space is selling for $300 per building square foot nationally, and the assessor is valuing a parking lot based on the cost of a finished pad + the cost of pavement. 5,000 sf of retail (with a typical eight parking spaces per thousand square feet of building) typically translates to about a 25% coverage ratio, meaning the restaurant is sitting on 20,000 sf of land.
4.24% of property tax on 20,000 sf of parking lot at an even $10 per square foot means whomever is renting the lot out is paying $8,480 a year for the parking lot property taxes.
Conversely, 4.24% of 5,000 sf of retail space at a national average of $300 per building square foot means the restaurant is paying $63,600 in property taxes a year--or what the food trucks are paying times 750%.
If the parkIng lot owners are wise, they would charge food truck owners who maintain a presence in their lots for a pro rata share of the property tax burden, just as they do for their mall tenants.
And if any business owner were wise--whether mall owner, restauranteur, or otherwise--they would fight to keep their property taxes lower, rather than use Government force to outlaw competition.
"The cities are simply protecting their revenue stream."
Also, the businesses forced to pay taxes by armed government employees probably appreciate having non-tax-paying businesses removed from their location.
Yeah, they're competing a lower cost point--not just because they aren't paying rent but also because they aren't paying property taxes. The local retailers pay close attention to local politicians, and the local cops are getting their overtime and pensions financed by property tax paying restaurants. Cities decline when they can't finance services by taxing retailers. If you can't raise property taxes in line with inflation because food trucks are skimming off a certain amount of sales from restaurants who are paying property taxes, the city is in trouble.
They're not being mean because they hate the news ways millennials do things. They're defending their revenue stream.
We need to offer libertarian alternatives to property taxes for retailers. It doesn't need to be one big idea that solves everything. It can be a lot of smaller suggestions. I suggest they get rid of the physical library, move to a virtual library that lends books and things virtually, and contract the administration out to a private contractor. What else can they privatize? Is it necessary to do animal control in-house? I've seen plenty of places that could do animal control with private volunteers--much like rural people do with their fire departments.
In Maine, the legislature imposed a requirement to pay sales taxes on internet purchases. Typically, if the internet retailer does not have any brick and mortar locations here, they will not place a sales tax on the purchase. Thing is that to ship something here, taxes are being paid. Iâm sure this was at the request of the in-state retailers. The problem is that many local shops do not sell specialty items so it isnât a case of saving a few bucks.
The reporting is an honor system that occurs when preparing oneâs annual income tax.
As usual, Ken Shultz gets it. And gets it better than the HyR bloggers ostensibly do.
Gets what?
Both brick-and-mortat restaurants and food trucks are screwed by both fuel taxes and property taxes. Instead of going at each other's throats and instead of acquiescing to to municipal tax hojnds, all businesses should unite to fight the real enemy which is bottomless, unlimited government.
Correction, tax hounds.
Goddam Reason steam-powered servers! I hope they're cheap enough to cover Welsh's drinks! Two "page not responsive" messages.
"...I suggest they get rid of the physical library, move to a virtual library that lends books and things virtually, and contract the administration out to a private contractor..."
Immediately runs into union resistance; it'd take a brave city council member to propose that.
Equalizing the tax load between b&m operations and trucks means dealing with politicians and taxes; that results, nearly universally, in the expected ratchet direction.
Beginning to see this as a changing business environment; you offered X for Y and now you have competition from an unexpected source. Get clever; make your business preferable to the alternative in ways other than price.
Oh, and don't hope or believe anyone from the government will deliver true assistance; he/she/they will offer the BS quoted by Utkonos (below; November.27.2021 at 8:07 pm) and deliver grief in new and larger amounts.
In LA it's even worse, the food trucks are as expensive as the restaurants, still have a 20 to 40 min wait for them to cook your food.
Goddam Reason steam-powered servers! I hope they're cheap enough to cover Welsh's drinks! Two "page not responsive" messages.
"In LA it's even worse, the food trucks are as expensive as the restaurants, still have a 20 to 40 min wait for them to cook your food."
So in LA, there is no requirement for the government to 'make things right'?
Good news, and fuck whoever is in charge of Reason's web page with running chain saw.
What pays for building and maintaining the streets? Do cities get a cut of fuel taxes?
Somalia solved that problem.
No, Somalia didn't.
They get sales taxes, property taxes, and in some places, they institute income taxes. Generally speaking, those things pay for maintenance. Once it's built, those things pay to keep them maintained and operating.
There are also development fees, which pay for building new stuff. You build a development with 100 units, average 2.3 children per household, and now they need more class room space at the elementary, the junior high, and the high school. They need more equipment at the local fire department and their paramedics will be busier than they would be otherwise. There are more kids joining little league. They may need a new place to play with a backstop. Ultimately, those costs are baked into the sale price of new homes, the rental price of new rental properties, etc.
The property taxes and retail sales taxes, on the other hand, pay for those new things to be operated going forward.
If they need to do something that benefits your property, like a road resurfacing in front of your house, or something like that, they may hit you with a special assessment.
And the city probably makes the trucks get a business license to operate in the city.
Lots of libertarians here seem to think a town is business association, rather than a government.
Not I, said The Little Red Hen.
The City Government is like all the other beasts in that fable who want the bread the Hen baked, but didn't want to go to the labor to get it.
Food trucks!!!!!!
Yes!!!! Get back to your roots!
I mean, we do have the FBI raiding journalists under the paper thin pretext of investigating a lost book and maybe overnight bag (although they declined to interview the people who offered it to the journalists, even though they listed them by name in the warrant)..... But food trucks is good too.
It's all of a single piece. The same unlimited governnment power that arrests independent journalists on phony pretexts could just as easily declare food trucks to be terror cells on wheels.
Also, food does kind of hit where everybody lives.
Grocers and restaurants depend on food trucks to truck their foods in to them, as well. Whatever asinine restrictions are applied to these restaurants-on-wheels, at the behest of the "real" restaurants, need to be applied, in spades, to ALL "food trucks"!
If anyone can still afford to eat at a food truck, that is.
Haperinflation update:
https://babylonbee.com/news/dollar-tree-quietly-adds-hundred-in-front-of-name
Amid the current inflation crisis, Dollar Tree quietly renamed itself to "Hundred Dollar Tree", quickly adding the word "Hundred" in front of its name on store signs all across the country.
Workers were seen installing the new signs just in time for Christmas sales this year.
"We're proud to bring you the new, improved, rebranded Hundred Dollar Tree!" announced Dollar Tree CEO Bob Tree. "All the stuff you know and love from Dollar Tree, but now you get to feel more like a rich guy, as you'll be throwing hundred-dollar bills around like paper."
Tree has assured customers that the stores will still have the same random knickknacks and other assorted low-end goods, but now at 100 times the price. Also, there will be a lot fewer items on the shelves thanks to Biden's supply crisis, but journalists were quick to point out that people should just "lower their expectations" for how many goods they would encounter at the stores.
Does this just affect one store or all of the Treeâs branches?
Even if one leaves some out, that doesnât go to the root of the problem which is how to stem the inflation? POTUS and COTUS are all bark on this one.
COTUS? Is this the one who engages in coitus with Willie Brown for a job and giggles uncontrollably?
This inflation is nuts. I can't even afford to get trunk anymore.
They are going to have to get to the root of the problem.
Dang it!
That really goes against my grain.
Sorry. Didnât mean to run rings around you.
If you leaf through the comments, there are occasional accidental repeat puns. Nobody will smack you with a sap.
True. Weâre all buds here. (Except for a few trolls who pine for ways to needle us.)
True. Those trolls arenât poplar at all.
Maybe Jesse, Sevo et al oughta sicâem more!
You just need to prune the excess growth away.
Y'all are so piney, I can no longer see the forest for the trees!
https://www.thriftyfun.com/tf62255937.tip.html
Two tall trees, a birch and a beech, are growing in the woods. A small tree begins to grow between them, and the beech says to the birch, "Is that a son of a beech or a son of a birch?"
The birch says he cannot tell. Just then a woodpecker lands on the sapling. The birch says, "Woodpecker, you are a tree expert. Can you tell if that is a son of a beech or a son of a birch?"
The woodpecker takes a taste of the small tree. He replies, "It is neither a son of a beech nor a son of a birch. It is, however, the best piece of ash I have ever put my pecker in."
Good one.
"Heh-heh-heh-HA!-HA! Heh-heh-heh-HA!-HA!"
Woody Woodpecker Intro
https://youtu.be/o86drEOSxgw
Not worth flagging the TDS-addled spastic asshole.
Unless it's a consensual kink. đ
Inflation is the seed of our destruction!
You guys are so great with the plant puns, I consider you all to be my fronds!
Even without hyperinflation, this underscores my experience with food trucks. Often a unique one-note take.... Also often overpriced by 50 to 100%.
Which makes one wonder about the entire "low costs" model of eschewing the overhead of rent and upkeep and Avoiding being tied to a single location. if that results in elevated prices... What did we really gain??
I suspect a lot of the high price is driven by hipsterism.
Or perhaps the notion is that they're using higher quality materials.
"...What did we really gain??"
If somebody bought it, the seller and the buyer both gained what they found to be of value.
None of your or may business.
âNot being against an ordinance but important to have the clarity to what can and cannot take place in the city street but supporting fairness and harmony," Eric Larson, CEO of the Downtown Detroit Partnership, told the Detroit Free Press. "We have to continue to find ways to support all of the small businesses equitably."
Um, that is NOT âword saladâ thatâs a public BRAIN FART! Itâs also a blatant red flagâat least we know to always delve deeper when THIS passes as public policy commentary.
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