Don't Punish the QAnon Shaman—or Anyone—for Demanding a Jury Trial
Coercive plea deals trample on defendants' Sixth Amendment rights.

Jacob Chansley, the "QAnon Shaman" whose face became fodder for front-page news spreads when he broke into the U.S. Capitol on January 6 while wearing patriotic face-paint and a horned headdress, was sentenced to 41 months in prison yesterday.
The punishment, handed down by Judge Royce C. Lamberth in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, was widely covered. But almost every news outlet skirted over the most insidious part of the proceedings.
"You were facing 20 years, Mr. Chansley," said the judge, telling him he was "smart" for not going to trial. "You did the right thing."
The "right" thing. At first glance, I'd posit most readers wouldn't think much of that; plea bargains are a core part of the U.S. criminal justice system. Yet in being frank with Chansley, Lamberth laid bare why those "bargains" are raw deals: Had Chansley insisted on his constitutional right to a trial by jury, he would have been staring down more than 16 additional years in prison. That's not because the government believes such a stratospheric sentence would serve public safety. It's because prosecutors routinely inflate hypothetical prison sentences and dangle them over defendants in order to bully them out of going to trial, where outcomes are both costly and uncertain.
In plainer terms, Chansley could have received almost 6 times a higher sentence solely for exercising his constitutional rights—something the judge here not only acknowledged but celebrated.
This is in no way unique to the January 6 defendants.
"The way the modern criminal justice system is structured, we punish people if they try to go to trial, which is sort of an astounding thing to say out loud," says Carissa Byrne Hessick, a professor of law at the University of North Carolina and the author of Punishment Without Trial: Why Plea Bargaining Is a Bad Deal. "And yet it's entirely commonplace….Judges are quite explicit that they impose heavier sentences on people who go to trial."
Lamberth said the quiet part out loud yesterday. But judges are not where the plea-bargaining problem begins or ends. For years, tough-on-crime legislators have passed laws that allow prosecutors to hit defendants with multiple charges for the same offense, giving the government leverage to threaten the accused with grotesquely inflated punishments. The escape hatch: Agree to waive your constitutional right to a trial by a jury of your peers, and accept whatever the authorities will give you.
"State officials, prosecutors, judges are trying to keep cases from going to trial because it's expensive," says Hessick. If it were about public safety, would a plea have been offered in the first place? Take Chansley: Of course the federal government does not believe he needs to stay behind prison walls for two decades. If they thought so, they wouldn't have agreed to the deal.
The trials for the January 6 defendants have been highly politicized, and how you feel about Chansley's sentence may have something to do with your political priors. But the injustice inherent to plea bargaining is not partisan. Indeed, it infiltrates the entire U.S. criminal justice system and disproportionately impacts defendants without means.
Some would argue the practice is unconstitutional. Prosecutors in Maricopa County, Arizona, for instance, make no attempt to conceal the fact that defendants are pressured to take plea deals before seeing the evidence against them or getting a chance to go to a pretrial hearing. The accused receive a warning on those deals: "The offer is withdrawn" if a defendant wants to attend the hearing, and "any subsequent officer will be substantially harsher." The American Civil Liberties Union is suing to stop this practice.
Consider Michael Calhoun, a 61-year-old man who the Maricopa County Attorney's Office offered an excess of nine years in prison for selling about $20 worth of drugs. He has never been arrested for a violent offense, according to police records. Yet should he have the audacity to ask a jury to consider the charges against him, he will receive something "substantially harsher" than that near-decade "deal."
This is one reason why 97 percent of trials in the U.S. are resolved via guilty pleas. If prosecutors threaten someone with a decades-long sentence, and a defendant is worried about his likelihood of acquittal, it's no wonder why he and many others in his position would take such a deal, opting to minimize risk. That obviously includes guilty people. But it includes innocent people too.
And even defendants we think are guilty are entitled to their Sixth Amendment rights. The Founders understood that rigid safeguards were necessary to ensure that the innocent weren't deprived of their liberty. So they made it difficult to convict people—something prosecutors clearly understand and would like to circumvent.
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These deals are only for the pleabeians.
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I'm just waiting for state cultist sarcasmic's take. Think Billy made the mute list?
He should post his rankings twice a week.
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Since it cost a lot to win
And even more to lose
You and me bound to spend some time
Wondering what to choose
It goes to show you don't ever know
Watch each card you play
And play it slow
Wait until your deal come 'round
Don't you let that deal go down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdlERmxKLIs
+1 Jerry's favorite song was Liberty
Wonderful song. And for those who don't know it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlZZHN1wCIk
10/14 Bobby threw a protest show @Governor Abbott down here the whole first set was girl songs. Encore was Liberty
thought it was delicious irony we had to prove negative or jabbed to get into the show and then they do Liberty lol
Bobby's lost his mind.
my shakedown shirt was going to be "Vaxxed? Jerry Wouldn't Care." but they shutdown shakedown so I didn't make any
Seth Abramson can't believe you're bringing 1/6 into this.
You guys play the same script every time your bullshit is revealed. When it was the Russian collusion hoax falling apart and FBI abuse being exposed Shack of shit first went with "umm..this is normal", before his neocon buddies even retreated and now we get "Ok, I guess it was bad". Now with all your mentally challenged "muh..insurrection nonsense" a pretty obvious political prosecution is being exposed with excessive punishment for a non-violent crime and you go "umm..this is totally normal".
And again, where is your fake "criminal justice" reporter?
So normal they can't point to one other instance.
The morning thread showed the average cases from the blm riots. The shaman got more time than people committing assaults and arson.
And reason has ignored the statements being made during sentencing as well. The ones making defendants admit their election views and beliefs are wrong.
As Babylon Bee posited, the QAnon Shaman probably wishes he’d just burned down some buildings in Kenosha.
Yeah but the BLM rioters meant well while they were burning the cities down. This guy was trying to preserve the Trump presidency! THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY! That alone should carry a 20 year sentence.
Revolutionary truth
20 years...for trespass. Seriously?
I think part of the problem is that trials are already stacked in favor of the prosecution. They have basically all the resources they need to prosecute a case, while the defense does not unless he happens to be rich and can afford a team of lawyers and investigators and experts.
Not only that but the majority of lawyers in D.c. refused to take them as clients.
if they wanted dc lawyers to represent them they should have been terrorists
Or gangbangers.
This is so completely, horribly wrong. Criminal defendants in the United States have their counsel funded by the state, their expert witnesses funded by the state, their travel expenses funded by the state.
They get these freebies because empathetic fools on the courts fabricated a constitutional positive right to "competition" in court - so when a crime is committed and society decides to expend time and money bringing the guilty to justice, they are also forced to fund the guilty's defense, however frivolous.
Why have trials? The state wouldn't make a case against an innocent person. Just skip that part and send them to prison. All a trial is is an opportunity for rich people to get off. Fuck that.
We should just execute all criminals immediately upon arrest. If you don't want to be shot in the street, don't get arrested.
We do need to solve our democrat problem. That would be the quick way to do it.
Criminal defendants in the United States have their counsel funded by the state, their expert witnesses funded by the state, their travel expenses funded by the state.
Guess who fund the prosecutor. Guess which side gets an order or two of magnitude more funding than the other.
Change "guilty" to "accused," and read your comment again.
The legitimate purpose of the state is to protect the rights of its citizens. Law enforcement is a necessary feature of that, and it entails prosecuting criminal offenses.
Now explain where the murderer's entitlement to my money comes from for his criminal defense.
Criminal trials should work like civil trials. Losing side should bear legal costs for both sides.
It's also routine to strip the defendant of all assets so they are unable to afford anything more than a public pretender.
Well, where did they GET those assets, huh?
From crimin'.
QE-fuckin'-D
I think a bigger part of the problem is that we have basically eliminated the executive pardon over the last 50 years. Hamilton argued in Federalist 74 - The criminal code of every country partakes so much of necessary severity, that without an easy access to exceptions in favor of unfortunate guilt, justice would wear a countenance too sanguinary and cruel....On these accounts, one man appears to be a more eligible dispenser of the mercy of government, than a body of men.
That easy access to exceptions in favor of unfortunate guilt is now gone. And Federalist 74 specifically talks about pardons re sedition and insurrection.
Oh, look! JFree arm-waving again!
This judge gave great fodder to those of us on the reform train.
He flat out praises a defendant for bowing before the state and avoiding draconian penalties. He clearly thinks it is a good thing that the state can threaten decades in jail for minor crimes to coerce compliance and indicated to me at least that he would be happy to sentence people who go to trial with maximum sentences for overcharged crimes.
In the judge's defense, he knows that the "criminal justice" people are full of shit and will praise his straight fascism. Look at this horseshit article trying to pretend like it's totally normal and actually it's just that bad system that resulted in a non-violent criminal to be held in solitary confinment for ten years and be sentence to years in federal prison.
This is completely political much like most of the "criminal justice" people are unprincipled progressive trash
I wish Reason commenters threw around the word woodchipper as often these days as in the past.
Return to norms.
THAT BOY AINT DONE NOTHIN' WRONG!
Yeah, trespassing. No greater threat to the republic than that.
Do you know King of All Blacks from the Howard Stern Show?
Is he your boyfriend?
His boyfriend is an eight year old child.
His crimes are less severe than your child rapes.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
That's not because the government believes such a stratospheric sentence would serve public safety.
I don't understand this statement. Obstructing an official proceeding carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison, fine of $250,000 or twice the monetary gain or loss of the offense. So clearly, in the law, they believe such sentences are legitimate.
Shouldn't we be questioning this law? 20 years? WTF?
It's totally normal. Remember all those people who obstructed Kavanaugh's confirmation hearing? Remember all the long sentences that were handed down in that incident? This is all just normal stuff
There's hardly a greater crime in a democracy than attempting to undermine democracy.
Like stuffing ballot boxes?
I don't know; murdering people seems worse to me.
Rape, murder, pedophilia, arson, child abuse...
But yeah. Nothing worse than disrupting official proceedings.
Kyle took care of all those issues!
Without democracy, law is simply force.
And without faith in the democratic system, democracy becomes a dictatorship. It doesn't matter if Biden WAS actually elected legitimately. There are sufficient reasons to question the vote that investigations are warranted, and yet they were shut down.
Also, when there are clear disparities in enforcement of laws based on political affiliation, justice is simply persecution. Do you find it odd that people who actively burned down buildings, including government buildings with people in them, were not charged with anything, yet this man, who really just made a nuisance of himself, receives years in prison?
"There are sufficient reasons to question the vote that investigations are warranted, and yet they were shut down."
No there weren't, and no they weren't.
Facts are imperative to democracy.
Treason is.
Although he could have been charged with it.
They didn’t charge him with it though. I know you’re to dumb to know why.
It would be far more appropriate to charge every democrat that voted for Biden.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of lefty shit.
Like rioting for a summer for political gain?
Absolutely YES = Shouldn't we be questioning this law? 20 years? WTF?
I’m not buying this argument at all. Why deal with a secondary issue rather than the root cause? The problem is with inflated punishments, full stop. If we fixed that, we wouldn’t have to worry about plea bargains.
To be more succinct, plea bargains are not a raw deal. They are a great deal, compared to the alternative. The alternative is the raw deal.
If the potential sentence was 20 minutes, rather than 20 years, the net result would be the same.
The prosecutors would just charge 500 misdemeanors, one for each step the accused took that day, as though each step were in furtherance of the ultimate crime and an opportunity for the accused to stop.
The problem is not the potential sentences.
The problem is plea bargaining; a system in which the accuser can arbitrarily pick a sentence, engage in charge stacking, then bully the accused to accept it.
The whole system is out of order. It's unlikely that it's morally defensible to punish people for crimes at all. Not only is punishment highly dubious as a social interest, we have evidence from brain science that behavior is strongly correlated with brain states out of any individual's control. A huge majority of death row inmates have brain damage, for example, to the bits of their brain that govern things like judgment. Psychopaths by definition lack brain capacity for empathy. Free will, defined as an uncaused cause, doesn't exist according to the laws of physics.
Advances in cognitive science and moral philosophy render the entire criminal justice enterprise suspect. But I think the least we can do, for now, is turn prisons into relatively decent places to be instead of hellish Nazi and gangsta factories.
Don't even get me started on jury trials. At least that aspect, flawed as it is, is informed by the principle of checking power, which remains useful and hard-won.
You poor, twisted creature. There's no such thing as morality if there's no free will. No choice, no volition. No volition, no mens rea.
Take it up with nature.
Criminal justice shouldn't be about "punishing" offenders. It should be primarily concerned with offenders making restitution to the community for the harm they caused. Small harm, small restitution. Great harm, great restitution. Punishment is pointless if there's no attempt at rehabilitation or learning.
That being said, there does need to be some recognition that some people will continue to offend, and thus are not fit to be in society, because they continuously cause harm without regard for restitution. I'm against the death penalty, so I'm not sure what that would look like.
Anyone who can't contain his criminality is a victim of bad genes or brain damage. He's sick. We treat sick people in hospitals.
Maybe we aren't medically advanced enough to completely forego locking some violent psychopaths up, but I don't think we should let such rare exceptions tempt us into supporting cages as a first resort.
Can break your leg if I can afford to pay you the hospitals and some reparations ?
Maybe we could make the death penalty "safe, legal and rare"?
Exactly. Now, it’s hard for some people to imagine how society would function without punishment. For example: how could we make people pay taxes?
We’ll, that assumes you pay taxes, which is optional. In the future, everyone will pay the government, and the government will decide what you get from that. This is virtually what most people are already doing. We just need to put everyone else in a similar system.
Sure, you’ll have the option to file for some sort of refund, but the taxes will already be paid.
Certainly, some people may decide to try to circumvent the system, use shut pin, etc. That’s why we need strict control of the internet, so that people won’t have a chance to do that sort of thing.
At that point, people who want to avoid taxes will be forced to barter. And why not let people live like savages if they don’t want to pay taxes? Seems fitting.
You simply don’t have to punish people once you can control them hard enough without it. Then, we’ll have true economic freedom.
Your only real freedom are the chains of socialism that bind us all.
I like where your head is at. Carrots, not sticks, or some such.
There's a well understood distinction between opting in vs. opting out with respect to human psychology.
Nevertheless, while we clearly shouldn't be locking people in cages for uncontrollable psychopathic violence and compulsive shoplifting and such, there remains the fundamental problem of motivating people to pay taxes, which makes the whole thing go.
I hope that some day we figure out how do this with a streamlined credits system that dispenses with the dog-and-pony-show aspect of taxes as well as their perennial political toxicity. Until then, we should have very nice prisons but only for tax avoiders.
Exactly. According to MMT, taxes are what gives value to money, and prison is what makes taxes work.
Therefore, our prisons should be used only to give value to our money.
And for people who use Bitcoin.
Now, the problem is, how do we convince people to use prison only to give value to our money? “After all, if prison is good for some things, why not others?” they maybe tempted to ask.
I suspect we use the same policy with the media that we always do: they can find out after the fact. By then, it will be too late for them to understand and do anything about it anyway.
It’s working great for CRT so far.
Fuck you. I'd rather have plutocrats, oligarchs, billionaires.
At least by chance of variety they may sometimes act morally. The slimy humanish beasts who benefit from the kind of government authority you posit, never will be. Never.
When a defendant is so obviously guilty, as in this case, then forgoing a trial and being given credit for that is actually a good thing for the defendant.
Maybe the fact that he could have been sentenced to up to 20 years in prison for what in substance amounts to trespassing is so excessive as to violate the Eighth Amendment?
Maybe he should have picked a Wal-Mart to trespass in instead of the US Capitol during the electoral college count.
Here I thought you said trespassing is a non-crime, because feelings or something.
Goddamn, you are a mendacious piece of toxic shit.
Was that meant for Tony? Because sarcasmic's comment is correct.
Tulpa has that comment on Cut/Paste.
turd lies; it’s all he ever does. turd is a pathological liar, entirely too stupid to remember which lies he posted even minutes ago, and also too stupid to understand we all know he’s a liar.
If anything he posts isn’t a lie, it’s totally accidental.
turd lies; it’s what he does. turd is a lying pile of steaming lefty shit.
In other threads he defended the killing of babbitt for trespassing. He is a piece of shit.
I think she's a victim of brainwashing. A pure victim.
But sometimes brainwashing victims come at you with murder in their eyes.
All my comments are wrong because I'm a poo-poo head. Haven't you learned anything from JesseAz, Chuck, Mother and RC? Doesn't matter what I say. It's wrong because of who I am. And now you're a poo-poo head for saying I'm correct.
Why do you put poo on your head?
So fucking broken.
Even when posted your exact quote you claim you didnt say it.
A true alcoholics delusion.
No one here is inclined to be charitable towards you. You’ve earned that. If anything, we spoil you here.
No, they’re wrong because they’re wrong.
You said trespassing was a criminal offense regarding babbitt.
Capital offense*
He doesn’t remember what he says.
I sometimes unmute Tony. Usually doesn't last more than a post or two.
The clincher this time was unarmed Ashley Babbit having to be put down for looking angrily at an armed, male police officer.
Sevo is too charitable in his assessment of your "contribution". Because that shit isn't ever trolling. That's straight up asking people to hate you.
I think right-wing propaganda should be a criminal offense. Solve all our problems.
like those assholes are somehow more special than wal-mart people
Yeah, if only he had done that on behalf of Biden instead of Trump, à la the Kavanaugh trespassers. Then nothing would have happened to him.
How come when progtard did it in 2017 they were praised?
Because Tony is a piece of shit?
A good guess. Note that fucks such as Tony say that trespassing the buildings of the Great and Powerful "threatens democracy", but he has zero concern about what arbitrary/preferential administration of law does to democracy.
Truly a vile piece of shit.
lol once a day you entertain on a Get Fuzzy level back when Darby Conley was making daily comics.
https://babylonbee.com/news/op-ed-we-dont-need-due-process-for-people-we-know-are-guilty
https://babylonbee.com/news/buffalo-guy-wishing-he-had-just-burned-down-a-car-dealership-instead
https://babylonbee.com/news/liberals-accuse-rittenhouse-of-trying-to-avoid-punishment-through-legal-loophole-known-as-trial
Everyone who enters a criminal courtroom is guilty.
Once they enter then it's just a jousting match between lawyers.
If the defense has enough money he might be able to buy his innocence, but only because he's rich.
Otherwise you take whatever plea is given to you, because even if you're innocent of what they're accusing you of, you're guilty of something.
Prosecutors are willing to bet every criminal defendant they bring to a courtroom is guilty.
You frame it as some kind of income inequality sob story, but the reality is that criminal trials result from a tiny subset of potential criminal charging events. And the unfortunate involvement of money is that escaping a criminal charge is more a function of (paid) lawyering than guilt or innocence. But that's the fault of pro-defendant roadblocks that have been introduced over the past century or so, transforming the court system from one designed (however imperfectly) to unearth truth to one designed to create competitive process.
The vast majority of voters end up endorsing more draconian processes and penalties in order to attempt to correct for the guilty you set free. You could just commit to punishing the guilty instead of conflating them with the innocent.
That was quite the psychoanalysis. You know what I think, what I believe, how I feel, my motivations, and everything else.
Why have a conversation? You just explained everything.
You are not a complicated person.
sarc is easily understood as a lying piece of lefty shit who is most often drunk.
No substantive response, then.
I accurately stated you: "frame it as some kind of income inequality sob story"
I accused you of setting free the guilty, as a consequence of your plain policy positions in these comments.
And I encouraged you to commit to punishing the guilty instead of conflating them with the innocent. Your comment, which I was directly responding to, cast both groups into the same pile.
Where did I get into your mind, your feelings, your motivations? This is all from what you said. Are you reacting because you think what I said addresses your mind, feelings, motivations? Good. That just means you're capable of accurate communication and aren't intentionally concealing or misrepresenting your thoughts.
He must've packed quite a lot into "You frame it as some kind of income inequality sob story,", which is the extent of what he directly addressed to or about you.
I don't get your "{You know what I think, what I believe, how I feel, my motivations, and everything else." claim, but then, I hate subtext.
Well, you do have a point.
Outside political pressure, a prosecutor doesn't proceed with any case they do not think they can win. Also, defendants will tend to throw in the towel on lost causes. Therefore, we should not be surprised that the majority of cases are solved in plea deals. After all, only those on the edge, where both sides think they can win, even go to trial.
The issue that I have is that the prosecutor is SUPPOSED to be asking for defendants to get punished for the time their crime deserves. They are not supposed to go for maximum punishments despite the interests of justice. Therefore, if they offer 4 years in a plea bargain, they should be asking the court for a four year sentence. The prosecutor simply has too much discretion in these sorts of cases.
From the perspective of the article (that plea bargaining is bad), it's actually worse than that. It's not the edge cases that go to trial, it's the X-factor cases. And since the charging comes first, it's mostly Defendant-side decisionmaking. Usually the x factor is an idiot defendant - wants his day in court irrespective of his chances at trial. But sometimes it's a politically minded defense attorney who thinks he can turn the trial into a circus, (hopefully intended) as a way to mitigate the consequences to the defendant.
A defendant reasonably confident he can win at trial, before a jury, should still seriously consider taking a plea deal, because juries are unpredictable. The closest-to-wise defendant going to trial is one who thinks he wins based on the law and confident that law will be vindicated at some point down the line - trial, or on appeal. That is, it'll get taken out of the hands of the jury. Gambling your freedom on a jury is a risky endeavor.
Where do you get that criteria? The law. The law in most states I'm familiar with presents ranges for particular charges, and also has a legally-mandated formula for deviations from or even moving within those ranges. Prosecutors have much less wiggle room than you seem to think, when it comes to how much penalty they ask for, given a criminal charge. Prosecutors have more choice when it comes to charging in the first place.
Then a criminal defendant (who is not paying for his defense) has no incentive to take the plea bargain instead of going to trial. It would be completely irrational to take certain [incarceration of period X] instead of [chance of losing at trial] * [incarceration of period X]
To reiterate, the real discretion a prosecutor has is in not charging in the first place. But remember, county attorneys are elected, outside of San Francisco, because voters want crimes charged.
Do I need to post your comments from this morning?
Y'know, you and the other fuck the po-lice elements on the left came close to reforming some of this stuff. But instead of designing and enacting practical reforms in your direction, you always instead hew to the most blindingly retarded premises, that have no chance of being enacted.
Here, because you're upset with nonviolent drug offenders being subject to long prison sentences if convicted, you attack the very concept of plea bargaining. Completely unstated is convincing voters to relax the criminal penalties, or decriminalize certain offenses altogether. Did you give up on that?
Back to plea-bargaining-is-unconstitutional, there are only two possibilities, you don't convince anyone, because that's retarded, or you do convince the subset of criminal defendants who are stupid enough to listen to you, who then insist on going to trial and get the more severe sentences. Are you looking to torch them to create more sob stories for your reforms? That's more clever than I'd give you credit, but about the same level of inhumanity.
And every time some obviously evil bastard gets a relaxed sentence because of your perfidy, you create more and more voters for mandatory minimums, for removing judicial discretion, for throwing more people in jail.
You missed the bigger problem, which is how politicized the prosecution is. This guy received 3.6 years for trespassing. Meanwhile Antifa member Cyan Waters Bass who started a fire in an occupied building and threw firebombs directly at police received 4 years. That's nearly the same sentence as this Chansley for trespassing. Antifa / BLM rioters who did worse than Chansley had their cases dismissed.
Meanwhile apolitical offenders are treated harshly as well. There's a special case for Antifa & BLM blackshirts.
Did you really thing government had evolved past "Fuck with us and get extra punishment because fuck you that why"?
How fucking naïve are you?
"Divine right of kings" has been replaced with "The will of the people."
Basically they both mean the same thing which is "fuck you, that's why."
The costumes have changed, but we're still in a feudal society.
The way to win people over is pointing this out.
How fucking naïve are you?
How big an asshole are you?
"...How big an asshole are you?..."
Fishing guy who is really lying:
"this big!"
This big:
https://vimeo.com/50697828
Did you miss the part where the BLM people were attacking the government?
The government should be biased in favor of Antifa instead of traitorous fascists. This is America. We have killed a lot of fascists to get to where we are.
in favor of Antifa instead of traitorous fascists.
A street army attacking other political groups, protected by allies in local government who pretend to oppose them are the fascists.
Tony doesn’t understand that.
There is no evidence that Antifa engaged in any significant violence, actually.
There is no evidence that Antifa engaged in any significant violence, actually.
Not only is it false that there is no evidence, but the evidence proved violence beyond a reasonable doubt, hence convictions. That left wingers simply don't care about reality and say whatever they wish were true is the only explanation for Tony continuing these obviously false assertions. They live in a FantasyLand of their own making and reality is not an input.
If these people were interrupting the regular proceedings of Congress, they should get a medal. And maybe a seat in Congress.
That would give new meaning to 'gridlock'.
I suppose an offer of 17 years (rather than an offer shy of four years) would have been less "coercive," but how would it have helped this defendant?
Asshole bigot shows up to make a public ass of himself again! Aren't we all surprised?
No.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
The plea bargain is coercion. It’s no bargain, but rather raw prosecutorial coercion. Stacked charges, consecutive sentences, etc.-all bullets of an almost discretionary nature-give the state and its agents excess power.
The prosecutor’s mission, like his madness, has transformed into convictions, not justice. And the plea agreement is his main weapon.
Double jeopardy, due process or the 8A are all helpless forms of substantive redress. Half the defense lawyers could give a shit about their clients’
fate.
The states or congress needs to reform the whole scam, in itself a crime, which accounts as much for the tsunami of people behind bars as behavior.
Plea bargain/charging reform does need to be tackled, but it's a completely different issue from the totalitarian Nazi/Soviet political persecution coming out of the January 6 protest.
Everyone should be very, very afraid right now.
It’s what the left has always wanted.
They are too short sighted to think about what might happen to them
if they go through with it.
Fear not. Political persecutions, like the 6 Jan “insurrection,”have a way of symbolizing the lost-the -battle/won-the-war aphorism. Americans as a rule don’t take too kindly to them. They leave a lingering sour taste but induce a kind of civic karma.
I recall dozens of examples but jump to the Berrigan brothers. Two 60s radicals. A couple of Jesuit priests, protesting the Vietnam war; went to prison for throwing some blood on and setting fire to draft records. “The republic under assault,” some yelled.
Yea, they pissed of the man. Then they served their time, pulled a similar stunt years later, another political protest, and then did more time. The judges half laughed and half sympathized during appeal.
The thing is, in the end they-their ideas- were vindicated. Funny how that works. The shaman will rise again, I suspect.
Perhaps not this "shaman", but another, we can all hope.
Reading history, the US economy largely recovered from FDR's/Truman's 'planned' economy, but it took popular revulsion to the commies to do so.
We can hope...
You that very summer: "Law and order! Lock up all the BLMs!"
You're losing your shit over some people being prosecuted for crimes they committed on national TV. Point to the constitutional violations. Point to anything happening out of the ordinary, other than the crimes themselves.
It's not unreasonable to demand some consistency.
I wouldn't mind if both sides got a few weeks in jail or community service or something.
However, we have one side getting let out after literally burning down buildings and killing people (with the explicitly support of the woman who is now our vice president) while the political opposition is getting years in prison for essentially being a nuisance.
Babylon Bee put out an article "Shaman wishes he had just burnt down a gas station in Kenosha instead of trespassing". It might be a joke, but it's not wrong.
shitstain tries false equivalence between burning down neighborhoods and 'trespassing' on public property.
Shitstain is either stupid enough to make the claim and stupid enough to assume others are, or 'clever' enough to try that as a bit of sophistry, but stull stupid enough to hope others buy his bullshit.
Regardless, stupid is the default position and sufficient to explaine the asshole's claim.
Fuck off and die.
-Pissed off.
Oh I love it when conservatives (whites) are now suddenly realizing the problems with the criminal justice system now that it is being applied to them.
I love it when steaming piles of lefty shit like you show your hypocrisy so transparently, asshole.
Make your family proud and the world a much better place: Fuck off and die.
You are no Reverend Kirkland.
Try harder.
Isn't this precisely the sort of behavior that BLM was supposed to be fighting against? Extreme overcharging that forces so many people to plead guilty? Where are your principles?
Those of us who've had much truck with law enforcement (a long time ago), including jail and seeing how big a police pistol barrel looks four inches from your eyeball, have long know there's a degree of selectivity in it.
Funny thing, when I eventually became a (slightly more) law-abiding citizen, my interactions with the police became much more respectful on both sides. Not a matter of race, just a matter of NOT clearly labeling myself as a member of a law-violating clan (in my case, drug dealer hippies).
Now, innocent blacks have suffered disproportionately from harsh and misguided law enforcement. But instead of advocating for better training for police officers, weakening qualified immunity all around and insisting the police unions stop protecting abusive cops...BLM just went on a criminal rampage, advocating for no positive changes, but selfishly insisting on "'spressin' ourself".
Meanwhile, blacks shoot and kill other blacks 100 times as often as police shoot blacks, and nobody in that community gives a single fuck about their lives. Police get zero cooperation nothing is settled, no one is punished, until the next weekend when the retaliatory shooting occur.
Lotta blame to go around, "X Lives Matter"-wise. More than you can parse, it seems.
Lot of blame to go around. More than you
"For the want of an edit function, the post was lost, for the want of a post the point was lost, for the want of a point...well, who gives a fuck, nobody's looking to understand anything anyway.
Just...being a sometime grammar/spelling/punctuation Nazi, I am disappoint.
Disappointed.
Dictators don't care about fail trials or justice, they only care about silencing their critics.
He left out an important part in this specific instance. Had this gone to trial, the Government would have had to present it's case. It doesn't have one.
its
Did I read this correctly? That this wacko QAnonShaman character got 41 months in prison for trespassing? Oh, sorry, trespassing at the Capitol?
That seems a tad excessive.
I think he scattered some important papers, too.
Plus, the judge is a fashion consultant and nailed him on his outfit.
Seriously, if Rittenhouse had this judge, he'd be in for life. This is pathetic.
Good to see Reason covering the horrible injustices of mandatory minimums. Back when I still watched RR, I remember his Shon Hopwood interview and that's when I first heard about mandatory minimums as an issue. It's crazy how the accused must choose between effectively life sentences and exercising their right to a trial by a jury of their peers. The worst part in these January 6th cases is that if you want to stop the "political prisoner" narrative, worst thing you can do is threaten dissidents with a choice of either 3.5 years or 30+. Looks arbitrary.
No, we shouldn't punish him for wanting a jury trial. Similarly, we shouldn't reward him for accepting a bench trial and pleading guilty. He's guilty, so he should be looking at the same amount of time a jury trial would have given him...potentially 20 years.
He didn’t have a bench trial.
He had no trial. No evidence was presented, there was no examination of evidence, no cross examination, and no opinions discussed.
The judge simply rubber stamped the prosecutor’s demands, agreed that a mentally disabled man had waived his rights, didn’t question what he was told, and sentenced the accused.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oJAVJPX0YY
> "any subsequent officer will be substantially harsher."
Either this has a typo (offer) or needs a [sic].
It’s Reason. Editing is at the discretion of the author. No one does proofreading or fact checking.
Like the situation we presently have on our border, where no one law has explicitly established an "open border" and yet the total effect, because of the confluence of laws, regulations and legal agreements, is exactly that (with the additional presence of active, if hapless law enforcement, the entire criminal justice system is run contrary to, if not counter to the basic tenants of the constitution and common law.
With the conception, largely under the 1960s supreme court, of the defense rights revolution, it seems to have eventually become evident that under them, in any real-world situation, it often became the case that we had put into practice Blackstone's Ratio at a level unacceptable to society and worse, made trials (jury or summary) so unwieldy as to have an interminable length largely in relation to how much is spent on defense. We ended up with a system that is unable, in any practical way, to prosecute even a moderate percentage of charged crimes. We have thereby accepted what was once considered entirely legally improper as a means to deal with criminal charges; jurisprudence by negotiations.
This has been the case for a while (it was first accepted within states and localities in the 20s and 30s due to Prohibition as the courts were crushed with cases, even without the additional needs for procedural perfection added in the 60s) and is more about having a trial at all than a right to a jury trial in particular. And if a judge has decided that his punishment will be categorically worse with a trial, he is acting contrary to law. It is the case that a negotiated charge and punishment is almost certainly between the two extreme possibilities and the judge may not that a defendant was lucky to avoid the worst-case scenario for them.