Here Are the Arguments That Persuaded the 5th Circuit To Block OSHA's Vaccine Mandate for Private Employers
The appeals court said the rule, which was published on Friday, raises "grave statutory and constitutional issues."

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit yesterday stayed the Biden administration's brand-new COVID-19 vaccine mandate for private employers, which took effect on Friday, when it was published in the Federal Register. The appeals court said the arguments made by the petitioners—a Louisiana supermarket chain and six employees of a Texas company that makes kitchen ventilation systems—"give cause to believe there are grave statutory and constitutional issues with the Mandate."
The vaccine rule, which was announced in early September but was not unveiled until last Thursday, gives businesses with 100 or more employees two options: They can adopt a "mandatory vaccination policy" with limited exceptions, or they can require unvaccinated employees to wear face masks and undergo weekly COVID-19 testing. The White House described the mandate as part of a broader effort to boost the nationwide vaccination rate. The aim, it said, is to "reduce the number of unvaccinated Americans by using regulatory powers and other actions to substantially increase the number of Americans covered by vaccination requirements."
But the federal government has no general authority to protect public health, control communicable diseases, or require vaccination, all of which are primarily state responsibilities. The administration therefore presented the vaccine mandate as an "emergency temporary standard" (ETS) issued by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), which is charged specifically with protecting employees from workplace hazards. As the 5th Circuit indicated, that legal strategy leaves the mandate open to challenge on both statutory and constitutional grounds.
The plaintiffs in BST Holdings v. OSHA, who are represented by the Chicago-based Liberty Justice Center and Louisiana's Pelican Institute for Public Policy, argue that the ETS exceeds the agency's authority under the Occupational Safety and Health Act. Even if it didn't, they say, empowering OSHA to issue such a sweeping order would exceed the federal government's power to regulate interstate commerce and violate the nondelegation doctrine, which constrains lawmaking by executive agencies.
The ETS option, which OSHA rarely uses, allows the agency to circumvent the usual rule making process, which typically takes years, by imposing regulations that take effect immediately upon publication. But to avoid the public notice, comment, and hearing requirements that ordinarily apply to OSHA rules, the agency has to identify a "grave danger" to employees "from exposure to substances or agents determined to be toxic or physically harmful or from new hazards." It also has to show the emergency standard is "necessary to protect employees from such danger."
As a general matter, the plaintiffs in the 5th Circuit case argue, the ETS goes beyond OSHA's mission to protect "occupational health and safety" because "it is not related to the workplace." The agency "has authority over workplace-related hazards," they say, "not any hazard one might encounter anywhere in the world."
The plaintiffs' 5th Circuit brief notes that "OSHA has never attempted to implement a rule this broad." Although the agency has been mulling an "Infectious Diseases Regulatory Framework" covering "airborne infectious diseases" since 2010, it "has repeatedly shelved the suggestion, leaving it to languish on the agency's no-action agenda." The only previous OSHA standard dealing with vaccination was much narrower, requiring that "employers whose workers could be exposed to blood or other potentially infectious materials at work offer free Hepatitis B vaccination to employees." Even that standard did not require vaccination, and it did not deal with a general, population-wide threat from a communicable disease.
More specifically, the plaintiffs argue that "COVID-19 is not a toxic substance or agent," adding that "OSHA cannot attempt to shoehorn this disease into the phrase 'new hazards.'" That phrase, they say, should be understood in context to exclude airborne viruses: "Because Congress expressly allowed for an ETS to be issued for 'substances or agents determined to be toxic or physically harmful,' the catch-all phrase to encompass other hazards must be read in light of, and limited to, items similar to those that come before it."
Otherwise, the brief says, OSHA "would have unbridled power to promulgate any regulation that would have the arguable effect of preventing the spread of a communicable disease." Such measures could include "a shutdown of an entire
industry [such as meatpacking] that might harbor a high [incidence] of COVID-19," "a nationwide shutdown of all employers engaged in interstate commerce," "a nationwide mask mandate on all customers visiting OSHA-regulated businesses," or even "a rule mandating [an] appropriate regimen of vitamins" aimed at boosting employees' immune responses.
The Supreme Court has cautioned against assuming that Congress intended to authorize executive actions with broad economic implications if it did not explicitly say so. "When an agency claims to discover in a long-extant statute an unheralded power to regulate a significant portion of the American economy," the Court said in 2014, "we typically greet its announcement with a measure of skepticism. We expect Congress to speak clearly if it wishes to assign to an agency decisions of vast 'economic and political significance.'"
The plaintiffs' brief says OSHA's claim that it is responding to a "grave danger" justifying an emergency standard is belied by the timing of the ETS. The regulation was published nearly two years after the beginning of the pandemic, nearly a year after the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) first approved COVID-19 vaccines for "emergency use," and more than two months after the FDA gave the Pfizer vaccine its full approval. "The extended timeframe for the ETS undermines any claim of exigence," the plaintiffs say. "And the real kicker is the same day the ETS was released, November 4, the White House also announced it was delaying its federal contractor vaccination mandate from December 8 to January 4, again undermining its assertion of exigency." That is also the deadline for private employers to fully comply with the ETS published on Friday. The plaintiffs suggest that "truly 'grave dangers' do not wait to spread until after the holidays."
The brief also questions whether the ETS for private employers is "necessary" to protect against the threat posed by COVID-19. When OSHA issued a COVID-19 ETS for the health care industry in June, the rule did not include a vaccination requirement. "The fact that OSHA's previous ETS, issued just months ago, did not find the need for a vaccine mandate even for healthcare workers, who treat COVID-19 patients, undermines OSHA's assertion now that such a requirement is necessary," the plaintiffs say. They also note that OSHA supported in-person instruction of public school students even when the vast majority of them were not vaccinated, which suggests that other safeguards may suffice.
The brief argues that the new ETS is "underinclusive" because weekly testing can miss COVID-19 carriers, because employees who are vaccinated can still carry the virus but don't have to be tested or wear masks, and because the rule does not apply to customers or other visitors who may transmit COVID-19 in the workplace. At the same time, the plaintiffs say, the rule is "overinclusive" because it "does not account for vulnerability related to age or preexisting health conditions," because it does not accept naturally acquired immunity as a valid reason to forgo vaccination, and because, while the ETS "excuses remote and outdoor workers from its scope," it "covers every other employee even while acknowledging employees in different roles face vastly different risk levels."
The brief says several of the individual plaintiffs "rarely interact with colleagues in person and should not be required to vaccinate or show a negative COVID-19 test since they are highly unlikely to spread COVID-19 to colleagues they may only see a few times a year." And since the ETS "applies to every workplace of an employer of 100 or more employees," the plaintiffs say, it "does not consider the different degrees of risk associated with differing workplaces." Yet "it cannot be considered 'necessary' as to all such workplaces."
Even if Congress wanted to give OSHA the authority it claims, the plaintiffs say, doing so would run afoul of the nondelegation doctrine, which aims to preserve the separation of powers by requiring an "intelligible principle" to guide regulation by executive agencies. Under OSHA's reading of the law, the brief argues, the agency has "plenary power to establish whatever legal requirements [it] wishes, regardless of how attenuated" their relationship to workplace safety may be. According to the government, "OSHA's newfound authority empowers it not simply to set safe levels of potential carcinogens in the workplace, or require safety equipment and employee trainings, but to regulate the off-site medical decisions of employees completely disconnected from work." If OSHA "can require that companies mandate vaccines," the brief asks, "what can it not require?"
The plaintiffs also argue that Congress itself does not have the authority to demand that private-sector employees choose between vaccination and testing plus masking. According to the Supreme Court's understanding of the Commerce Clause, the federal government can regulate "activities having a substantial relation to interstate commerce," even when those activities themselves do not cross state lines. In deciding whether a given regulation meets that test, courts are supposed to consider "the economic character of the intrastate activity"; whether the regulation contains a "jurisdictional element" that may "establish whether the enactment is in pursuance of Congress' regulation of interstate commerce"; congressional findings regarding the regulated activity's impact on interstate commerce; and whether that impact is too "attenuated" for the regulation to pass muster under the Commerce Clause.
In this case, the regulated "activity"—the decision to forgo vaccination—is not only not "economic"; it is not even an "activity." The plaintiffs argue that forgoing vaccination is analogous to refraining from purchasing government-approved medical insurance, a decision that a majority of the Court agreed could not be reached under the Commerce Clause in the 2012 Obamacare case National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius. "If Congress can regulate employees' individual health decisions under the Commerce Clause," the plaintiffs say, "then it can mandate that employers require their workers to attend the gym weekly or to eat broccoli"—a reference to a famous hypothetical in the Obamacare case.
What about a "jurisdictional element"? The plaintiffs' brief notes that "the mandate's limit to employers with 100 or more employees does not actually limit its reach to interstate activities," since "some employers with more than 100 employees do not engage in interstate activities at all," while "some employers with fewer than 100 employees engage in extensive interstate activity."
Nor did OSHA (or Congress) "make any findings regarding the effect of COVID-19 vaccinations and testing on interstate commerce." The agency's avowed aim is to protect unvaccinated employees from the risk posed by their own choice to remain unvaccinated. If those choices can be said to affect interstate commerce, the plaintiffs say, it is only by "pil[ing] inference upon inference," which the Supreme Court has said is not permissible as a justification for federal regulation, since it would "bid fair to convert congressional authority under the Commerce Clause to a general police power of the sort retained by the States."
At this early stage in the case, it is not clear which of these arguments the 5th Circuit found most persuasive, although the wording of its stay implies that it perceives both statutory and constitutional reasons to doubt the legality of OSHA's rule. The court gave the government until 5 p.m. on Monday to "respond to the petitioners' motion for a permanent injunction." The petitioners, in turn, "shall file any reply" by 5 p.m. on Tuesday.
The vaccine mandate faces additional challenges, including lawsuits backed by the attorneys general of 26 states, in the 5th, 6th, 8th, and 11th circuits. Last week The New York Times reported that "legal experts say" OSHA "has the authority to introduce a vaccine mandate." Judging from the 5th Circuit's stay and all the other litigation contesting OSHA's authority, that assessment seems premature.
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SleepyJoe takes an L.
In addition to many Zs
He was so sleepy one of the Zs got partially cut off.
LGB, forget the TQ and the rest of it.
FJB
I'd like to know how OSHA can mandate injecting people with a medication known to cause disabling injuries or death to the recipients.
How many lives do you suppose OSHA has saved with their safety regulations? How many injuries has it prevented?
There's no way of knowing that. So there's no way to justify spending taxpayers money to fund OSHA.
Doubtful if it's any. Believe it or not, corporations don't want to kill off their own workers.
And rules don't stop general stupidity in the workplace - just ask Alec Baldwin about that.
"corporations don't want to kill off their own workers"
Neither do restaurants want to poison their customers. Yet health departments pretend they're performing a necessary service by using our tax money to tell them not to.
And health department checks on restaurants are even more of a joke than OSHA inspections. As long as they can check all the right boxes, you just continue as before.
Restaurants are not safe anyway. One thing Trump was right about. He ate McDonalds which has a great record for food safety.
I've twice gotten food poisoning at restaurants with those health inspection papers up on the wall. Both of them were respectable restaurants, one was one of Iron Chef Masaharu Morimoto's in LA. Geeze, you'd think he'd at least wash the veggies in his vegetarian wraps. (It was tasty, I'll give him that.)
I've never gotten it at hole in the wall dives where you might suspect the staff were out catching cats for the schezwan. Maybe they rely more on repeat customers?
Health inspectors letting them know of inspections in advance do make them useless. More of an IQ test than anything.
This decision is anti-democratic, it’s pretty clear the American public wants to be told what to do, or at least a plurality wants the government to tell everyone else what to do.
Otherwise people would be out decorating lampposts with politicians.
A valid premise constructed logically from the available evidence.
"Doubtful if it's any. Believe it or not, corporations don't want to kill off their own workers."
A couple of quick points: First, it's always hard to prove a negative, so the fact that no one died today on the construction site might be impossible to attribute to OSHA regulations, even if those regulations were responsible. Second, corporations have a long history of killing their workers. The coal industry is a classic, from the 19th century, when mine owners fought against classifying black lung as a disease (they regarded it as a 'condition' like the wearing out of a machine part) to modern coal mining and the tragic explosions and other problems resulting from mines that ignore regulations. Cloth mills exploded from dust that was not vented until regulations forced change; ditto from grain mills. When labor was cheap and easily replaced, a factory could kill employees without much loss of productivity. OSHA may be guilty of overreach in some cases, but the suggestion that OSHA, and comparable agency regulations, have saved no lives at all (how many people are dying of asbestos exposure on the work site now?) is strange.
The 19th century isn't today. Back then you could make money while killing your workers, today not so much. With the 24 hour news cycle the bad PR alone would drive most business to your competitors (another thing many companies didn't have in the 19 century) and if that doesn't ruin you, the wrongful death lawsuits will
"The 19th century isn't today"
Never said it was -- but it's not the same, partly because of safety regulations that have been enacted. And there continue to be injuries and deaths in industries that ignore OSHA rules. If your bad PR lesson was valid, there would be less coal mining....
I was responding to the claim that OSHA hasn't saved any lives. That strikes me as a political statement rather than an epidemiological one, and silly rather than insightful. Appeals to vague principles -- "the bad PR alone would drive most businesses to your competitors" for example -- are not evidence.
Regulations haven’t saved lives. Complexity and greater skills saves them.
It makes replacing workers more expensive than simply improving conditions for them.
Where workers are unskilled and can easily be replaced, especially illegal laborers, dangerous, unpleasant conditions continue. Think meat packing, landscaping, and farm produce picking.
(how many people are dying of asbestos exposure on the work site now?)
None. Or, maybe more appropriately/analogously, how many people are dying of obesity on the work site right now? Data clearly indicates that, even for diseases asbestos is known to increase the risk of, obesity is a stronger indicator of morbidity/mortality.
I'm not following your point here. The issue was whether any OSHA rule ever saved a life, and I mentioned asbestos as an example -- at least four OSHA laws regulating the use of asbestos reduced the risk of diseases such as mesothelioma to basically zero. This has nothing to do with other risk factors, such as obesity, cigarette smoking, etc.
I’m sure their regulations saved lives. But that’s not a valid test of whether OSHA is worthwhile. The issue is whether those lives saved were worth the costs involved. OSHA could ban outright the use of commercial big rigs, commercial fishing boats, etc. all in the name of worker safety. That would undoubtedly save lives. But does that make sense? The problem with OSHA is that their view of risk/benefit, Assuming it has any, is out of touch with the general public. Which is par for the course with a government bureaucracy test with safety. It’s no different than the FDA.
I agree with your general point. In medicine we often refer to this as a military calculation: how many lives (or other resources) can we expend to achieve a tactical goal, such as taking an enemy position. The history of warfare is rife with examples of the calculations losing touch with the benefits: WWI is probably a good example; Vietnam perhaps as well.
You'll remember that car manufacturers argued that the cost of adding seat belts was not worth the gains in safety that would result. Maybe not. We lowered the speed limit nationally to 55 mph when the 70s gas crisis hit, and saw dramatic declines in injuries and deaths in car accidents, but getting somewhere faster is more important to drivers than the risk, and so speed limits crept back up. Lots of examples. I have no doubt that OSHA rules also garble the risk/benefit calculations.
"You'll remember that car manufacturers argued that the cost of adding seat belts was not worth the gains in safety that would result. Maybe not."
There is some evidence that risk homeostasis is a real thing. Probably save more lives with the safety features people can't see, like crumple zones and air bags.
0
I have only known OSHA to cause injuries
To see what it is like without OSHA, just watch any Star War movie.
The Empire has no safety regulations at all.
So power reactors have no security, stairs have no handrails, people can fall into garbage chutes, workers stand near planet destroying lasers, etc.
I’m glad they just mandated security in patient care areas. Now the doors are locked and angry family members can’t just walk into the operating room.
Although that might have been a JAHCO mandate, not OSHA
Maybe don't piss people off and you won't have a problem? Just a thought.
Right. Pull the other one. We weren't cited for it, but, we had to make a change and have it checked before we would be listed as passing the inspection. Our crime? We had 2-1/2" wide marker tape designating our aisles and walkways instead of 2" wide.
Probably quite a number. This is especially true in small corporations who don't fear lawyers yet or brazen ones that think they can fight out any legal challenge.
OSHA also provides guidelines for companies to base their safety practices and a legal push for safety personnel to push requirements over cost considerations.
OSHA doesn't do much to companies that actually care and are willing to invest in their personnel. It does have an effect on companies that don't care about the safety of their personnel.
That's the whole issue, isn't it? They KNOW FOR CERTAIN the jab doesn't stop transmission, so they aren't protecting anybody at all. The virus continues to work its way through the population until real herd immunity is reached.
How many deaths and injuries do you think OSHA has caused?
Good article. I come here just for clean, unadorned facts on the legal questions. If I wanted libertarian commentary, I'd go here.
The lack of any commentary by sir strudel is telling.
He's off having a Sullum moment of reflection... on how awful Trump is. I mean, fuck all this other noise - THE TWEETS!
If they wanted to force more people to get the vaccine, they would have had more success prohibiting the unvax from accessing the interstates.
This ruling really bummed you out, didn’t it?
How will we be able to travel to the train station?
I'm getting sick of driving around on the interstate with my mask on while the unvax still get to lollygag from lane to lane
If they get in a car accident, and are unvaccinated, hopefully the hospital refuses to treat them. Right?
I don't mind if they go to hospital for a car accident as long as they don't mind if I run over them a few times first.
It would be reported as, “Died from COVID-related complications.” And if they were determined to be peacefully trespassing, you’d get off the hook.
You probably are literally "getting sick of driving around on the interstate with my mask on". That mask is a breath filter both ways, and gets horribly gunky on the inside after wearing one for a while. It's warm and moist, like a petri dish.
Dum dum, you're not supposed to wear them for extended periods of time. Don't you follow the science?
Maybe you should stop doing that then.
Are you for real? Vaccination has what to do with driving behaviors. Seems like you are descending into self parody.
I think he's mostly being facetious, but he's so far deep into the cult of safetyism that you can't put it past him.
I'm sure that he and Joe Friday have largely disparate political baselines, but both having this quirk will lead them to be bedfellows more often than one would expect based just on identification.
Hard to say. JFree seems pretty humorless to me most of the time. But that might not be fair.
Not something I would like to attempt to unsee later.
I'm...driving around on the interstate with my mask on
Too on-brand.
Please, keep masking up in the car. We all need a good laugh driving around this failing nation of ours.
Why do the protected need to be protected from the unprotected by forcing the unprotected to use the protection that didn't protect the protected in the first place?
Because political scientists said so.
That's literally the reason.
They are so far invested into the flawed vaccine narrative and have convinced so many other people already, that they can't back down now and look weak.
Similarly, that's the reasoning for the whole covid panic in general. They saw an opportunity to get Trump so they stoked a worldwide panic in response. Walking it back now would make them look bad, so they are doubling down and will be doing so forever.
I've already said the only mandate should be that the unvax shouldn't be admitted to hospital for covid when they're full. So the unprotected can't be protected by the protected when the unprotected need the protection that they chose not to need.
I've been thinking about this and I'm starting to come around. One of the typical conservative complaints about illegal immigration is that they take up Hospital resources with no hope of recovering them. Since ~100% of the illegal immigrants are unvaccinated, this would be an excellent, kill-two-birds kind of policy.
We can satiate vaccine cultists by denying healthcare to the unvaccinated, and take care of the illegals soaking up emergency services in one shot.
You've convinced me, I'm on board.
Throw in no treatment for people who smoke, alcoholics, and obese people, and you’ll get my vote!
Jeff and sarc hardest hit.
Promise?
So you have capitulated on the issue of all Healthcare being under control of the state?
I think he might be being just a little facetious.
I guess health care being a right is DOA.
What if the hospitals are full because of vaccine related myocarditis (etc)?
That didn't happened for the first 400 million vaccine doses. Not remotely. Safe to assume it won't happen now that those interested in getting vaxxed have already gotten it. But hey - I'm perfectly willing to say that if that ever does happen, the Mises caucus crowd should be able to get a free cup of coffee at their local hospital.
The leading cause of myocarditis is infection especially viral infection. Also some medications can cause it including common ones like penicillin.
There have been 226 cases attributed to the vaccine out of 471 million doses.
Tell that to Scandinavia.
Do you have a contact number? I think they know.
I agree. I chose not to vax so if I get sick I won't go looking for help ! If they had quarantined the hospitals and nursing homes in the first place this would never have gotten out of hand. What kind of idiots do we have running this show, when they quarantine the well and let the sick run free ?
“the protection that didn't protect the protected in the first place”
Which is not true. Getting vaccinated greatly reduces one’s chances of being hospitalized or being seriously ill, as well as decreasing total time that one is infectious.
If more people had gotten vaccinated asap, instead of not getting vaccinated for stupid partisan reasons, we would have had a shot at herd immunity.
If more people had gotten vaccinated asap, instead of not getting vaccinated for stupid partisan reasons, we would have had a shot at herd immunity.
That's flat out medical misinformation. Herd immunity does not solely come from a vaccine that's only 39% effective, requiring a lifetime of ongoing booster shots to eleventy thousand percent of the population.
Mike gets all his figures from CNN. I'm convinced of that.
That youtube is mischaracterizing the Lancet study. The best summary of that study is:
Although vaccines remain highly effective at preventing severe disease and deaths from COVID-19, our findings suggest that vaccination is not sufficient to prevent transmission of the delta variant in household settings with prolonged exposures.
Vaccination is not intended to prevent transmission. It can do so accidentally by reducing the timeframe of contagiousness (which this vaccine does) or by reducing the peak viral load (which this vaccine doesn't do - but whether that is because of the vaccine or the virus itself is not mentioned). But 'household settings with prolonged exposures' is NEVER the setting where that would matter.
The ONLY way to reduce transmission in that setting is for the infected family member to isolate from the family itself. The fact that we (in the US and UK where the Lancet study took place) didn't even consider those measures is a damnation of our public health people. Obesity and other comorbidities runs in families. The failure to provide a way to isolate the sick in those families is the main reason covid literally wiped out some families. But that has nothing to do with the vaccine.
You stretched so hard it may have been a yogic maneuver there.
Downward Facing Dog-robber
If you would isolate an infected family member, especially a child, I would call you a disgusting wretch of humanity.
Some of the "health guidelines" are flat-out child abuse. One EU recommendation is that if you suspect your child has been exposed, isolate them alone with no human contact for two weeks. Are you serious? That is arguably torture when done with fully grown adults who have committed seriously crimes. But with children who just knew someone who got sick? That's horrific.
These heartless imbeciles refuse to acknowledge how devastating their "solution" is.
But the fear is so deliciously magnified! We elites love it so!!
If da gummit ackshully CRED bout the young'uns not getting sich, or getting better when they do, they'd be preparing daily packets containing a mix of vitamin and mineral supplements known to greatl reduce one's susceptibility to contracting the virus by strengthening my own immune system with simple very well proven vitamins and mineral supplements. But no, they WANT this WooFlew to be as big a problem as they can possibly make it.
I will not watch nutcase YouTube videos. Please link to written articles, which I can check out with a reasonable time investment.
Why do conspiracy theorists love videos so much? I guess it protects them from criticism because normal people with lives don’t have the time to watch video rants.
Go plug yourself back into the MSM..
I didn't link you to CNN.
Note that Mike supposedly has time to read an article, but not watch a video, which would likely involve the same time investment.
I can skim an article in a minute to see if it's worth reading. However, a video will often be ten to twenty minutes long.
and further, most videos drag on and on the "star" making a big deal of his inflated ego, rambling on and on about peripheral stuff and eventually sneaking in the useful morsel promised in the click bait header.
Yes, give us print. The illiterati can have their Sesame Street level vids.
Red, that might be your reading skill level, but most of us have gotten past the first grade.
When all your books require crayons to finish, that isn't saying much.
If you won't consider disconfirming data, regardless of the medium, you're being a disingenuous partisan.
Before or after the Delta variant came from India?
myself, having HAD the infernal disease, I now have lifelong immunity agaisnt ALL strains, because ALL the strains are still corona virus infections, and a natural immunity provides protection for life against ALL such diseases, even strains the chinese have not had tome to invent and release.
Why not acknowledge natural immunity? Why a fixation on people who don't want the shot? What's the new variation that we that are immune need to know about? why can't natural infection create heard immunity? Why are fixated on something that is 99% a non issue? How many hospital visits are created from the constant fear porn bashing? What percent would have never gone to the hospital and been fine except that we scared them through media to death?
Only Hitler recognizes natural immunity.
I think there has been too little made of immunity via exposure. But there's also a ton of people (including commenters here) who've been lying thru their teeth for well over a year now - long before the vaccine - that 'we've mostly been exposed to this already and we're at herd immunity now'. Well that's obviously bullshit isn't it. Is this some game in how loud can everyone lie in order to poison all information? Fucked up people.
How many hospital visits are created from the constant fear porn bashing?
21% of people who go to hospital for covid die there. That number has gone down over time because it is very age-related (higher % for older, lower % for younger) and the hospitalized population has gotta younger since vax came out. But even so - of those currently hospitalized in CO, 30% are in ICU. That is similar to every other state I've seen post-delta. And this isn't a particularly old demographic - 50% under 65 (overwhelmingly unvax), 50% over 65 (over half unvax). These aren't hospitalizations just for the hell of it.
Further - current hospitalizations in Colorado are 78% unvax. Please explain how it is that the unvax are the ones reacting to the fear porn?
Holy shit you are insane.
For how many people in the ICU is covid the primary reason they are there? How many of the 79% who don't die didn't really need to be hospitalized?
For how many people in the ICU is covid the primary reason they are there?
At my hospitals since the start of the pandemic it's 80-85%, and that's stayed pretty constant.
How many of the 79% who don't die didn't really need to be hospitalized?
This is going to vary based on region/sub-region. Some areas/doctors/systems will admit at the drop of a hat (not specific to COVID), and there are plenty of COVID patients (no ability to quantify this) that have been admitted for precautionary reasons or to increase their priority for certain treatments.
Excluding the first wave (whose data isn't comparable to others) we've seen ~25% of reported COVID inpatients as screened-in asymptomatics. This seems to vary inversely to the local prevalence (the more COVID is around, the lower the % of asymptomatic inpatients but it, which I think is a giant strike against any zero-COVID argument).
Go to hospital for COVID or with COVID? Your denominator sucks.
You are aware that the lockdown orders did more to prevent natural immunity than virtually anything anybody could have conceivably done, right?
Fauci does not seem to know this, mind you.
People also gained weight, exercised less, and got less fresh air and sunshine, all of which also reduced their immunity.
Got a link to some solid data PROVING yuor rates of vaaxed vs unvaxed who are in hospital? Israel's data contradicts yuor claim of mostly not injected.
But then, there IS a very plausible explanation for those stats. DOn't forget CDC in their infinite whiz dumb CHANGED the definition of "vaccinated" If the poor sap admitted to the ICU in Denver today had actuallly gotten the injection a week ago last Friday, 29th October, he is UNvacinated" per CDC's new defniition. WHY? Simple. They KNOW some 85% of adverse reactions occur in the first 14 days after tking the squirt. So since today is only the 1oth day, the poor sap is "unvaccinated" and will be until Wednesday, by which time he is mostl likely to be either dead or released.
See how corrupt and crooked these clowns are? THey have NO interest in being truthful OR accurte.
How's about yuo take it upon yourself to nip round for a visit to your local large hispital nd find out how many in there for the "vid have in reality taken the poke in their arm, and just might be in there for one or more of the very common adverse rections. A good friend of mine, one of the strongest healthiest men I know, ws in hospital one week go with life threatening health issues doe to the covid. Turns out he had recetnly taken the poke in the arm. His healthh issues were almost certainly a "vaccine" reaction. We nearly lost him. He'd been battling the 'vid for two weeks, and steadily losing.. AFTER having taken the injection to KEEP him from getting the disease. It came very near to killing him.
Ya think I"M a gonna gat that poke? Are yuo NUTS? Or do you think I am?
Good point. I’m willing to acknowledge natural immunity from having had COVID and recovered. Sorry, in my mind I make an exception for anyone who has already had COVID.
Problem is there aren’t that many anti-vaxxers who have actually gone out and gotten a positive antibody test.
As to your other point, to rely on natural spread and immunity when there is a vaccine available is dumb. It’s just unnecessary suffering, when an easier, less painful way is being offered.
Except prior the vaxxes becoming widely available we know that from blood donation surveys that about 45m Americans have been previously infected with an estimated 4x multiplier derived by the CDC means that nearly 200m Americans had immunity before the jab became ubiquitous. Every jab recipient should have been tested for prior infection before getting the vaxx.
That is transparently bullshit and a lie. Deliberate deceit about faulty sero tests early on in the pandemic when there was no testing. It is simply fraud being perpetuated by people who are totally ok with perpetuating fraud. It is very fucking obvious that that wasn't true. Covid is still being diagnosed. Unless your ilk has now moved from fraud to conspiracy AND fraud. Which is true for those assclowns getting their info from Rockwell and that crowd.
Given how many have died and the estimated fatality rate, seems like it must be close to 100M who have had it anyway.
CDC estimates it's ~140M. That and the vaccinations are one reason why a lot of forecasters think there's very few large waves ahead of us.
Where I live suffered worse than just about anywhere from the initial wave. Delta, by contrast, was a complete whimper, comparable to an ordinary flu season. I think that's what subsequent waves are going to resemble for most.
Not that it will matter; even though it will be moot we'll still have people like JFree obsessing over every infection/hospitalization and refusing to give up the emergency. I won't be surprised if they're still at it in 2027, like the Japs that never knew to surrender.
The makers of the injections ALL claim theirproduct does NOT prevent one's contracting the disease, nor does their productprevent spreading the disease when you DO contaract it.
On the other hand.. natural imminuty gained from having gotten the infrenal thing and fought it off actually confers a robust, wide spectrum and long lasting immunity to ALL strains of this virus. Lab testing I've read indicates that natural immunity from haiving had the disease is 20to 27 times more effective than the shots, is effectie against ALL vfariants or strains of the virus, and is VERY durable, likely to last the rest of the person;s life. Meanwhile the shots don't protect agasint getting or spreading the stuff, and the sorry excuse of immunity conferred is at least 60% gone within two to three months, in other words, ofno use whatevr. Further injected immunity brely protects agasint the delta strain, is mostly useless against all others tested so far.
Nope, I'll keepy my body'snown strong defenses and absolutley refuse the pokes. Furhte,rstatistics shothat once someone has had the disease, and later gets the shots too, the likelihood of strong adverse reactions and/or death is at least five times that of a someone who has never gotten the disease at all.
The only path to herd immunity is for the vaccinated to eventually get infected...leaving the previously infected but unvaxxed alone would also help.
Not really. For a vaccine to help towards herd immunity, it most be sterilizing, and not leaky like these. Currently, the only thing that helps us towards herd immunity is natural immunity, from catching and surviving COVID-19. If someone can be vaccinated, then catch and pass on a virus later, it doesn’t help with herd immunity.
Also note that the the level of immunity probably required for herd immunity probably went from 60% to 80% of the population during the month of July this year, when the much more infectious Delta variant pushed out the other variants in this country (since the herd immunity threshold (HIT) is mathematically dependent on infectivity ((R0). 60% coverage might have been doable, but 80% is much, much harder. Hence, very possibly, the vaccination of 5-12 year olds, much more likely to die from the vaccines than the virus (they are more likely to drown at that age, or die in a drive by shooting).
Name ONE vaccine with 'sterilizing immunity' against the virus itself. That is not an actual thing. It is a Holy Grail for vaccine developers. A quest that suggests that coconuts migrate.
Actually, smallpox. Sorry, but an assertion in the Atlantic is hardly gospel:
"The smallpox vaccine wasn’t sterilizing; it still helped us eradicate a pathogen."
I can just cite something else. Watch this, kid:
"For example, live-attenuated immunogens, such as measles and smallpox vaccines, provide long-term sterilizing immunity..." (https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/immunology-and-microbiology/smallpox-vaccines).
But you go ahead and believe the vaccine-shilling Atlantic. Wise decision.
Since you can be reinfected with COVID after a relatively short period of time, not even that will work. Now, later iterations aren't nearly as dangerous, but let's be frank. Herd immunity isn't going to clear it. Vaccinations aren't going to clear it. COVID is at this point a permanent part of our health landscape. After everyone has had it or gotten vaccinated, the death rates are going to go down, but it is going to be just like the flu, taking down the elderly and the weak, more or less permanently.
And that's a kind of herd immunity. Like we have to cold viruses. If all the viruses that cause common colds were new to a population, there would be a lot more people dying from those too.
Truth.
Can we get an Operation Warp Speed for the common cold?
No? Didn't think so.
you are very ignorant or misinformed. while the covid injections may reduce symptoms when infected, the protection is unnecessary for nearly everyone. children are at zero risk and do not need the injections, about 100 million or more have had the virus and do not need the injections. of the remaining people only the elderly with underlying comorbidities could benefit from the injections. the actual facts are that these injections are unneeded. with the available therapeutics that are very effective these injections are not needed.
How about not forcing people at all, JSlave?
You misunderstand his handle. He's JFree. Everyone else is his JSlave. That's how statists dream.
OSHA, mandate no fatties on the jobsite.
And no unemployment or welfare either. Jeffy won’t like that.
Yeah. If tOSHA can mandate getting a useless shot, by some wil stretch of their sich imaginations deeming that a "workplace hazard" (when they have higher risk out and abt in town, visiting with friends, etc) and make mandates to "prevent" harms from it, what is to prevent them stepping in and mandting things like mandated exercise time, determining what car you MUST drive., which ones you cannot, what brand of safety shoes you MUST wear when walking down the hall to the loo....... ad what city yuo "may" visit on yuor winter vacation.
If they can dictate one ting, they can dictate more, and soon enough, all. Nip this one in the butt, er, I mean bud.
NBC News claimed that COVID is in the top ten causes of death for children.
Also claimed 146,000 children have died from covid.
Due to poverty caused by insane government actions and mandates.
You guessed it. Abortion is still first.
It apparantly doesn't count when you dehumanize them as clumps of cells.
It counts if the clump of cells tests COVID positive.
Laughable. I demand they lose access to all social media immediately.
This seems to be the original source of this claim. Can you explain to us what they got wrong:
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/brief/covid19-and-other-leading-causes-of-death-in-the-us/
“Even among children age 1-14, COVID-19 was in the top 10 leading causes of death through August and September 2021. Among children age 5-14, COVID-19 ranked as the number 6 leading cause of death in August and September. Among children ages 1-4, COVID-19’s rank rose from number 13 to number 7 among leading causes of death in August 2021 and held there in September.”
The facts.
They even basically admit they're making shit up:
"For age-specific leading causes for which 2021 monthly provisional death counts were not available, we used CDC Wonder data for 2019 for age-specific average monthly death counts."
2020's data still isn't compiled yet, but you seem think it's instantly availableeven though you're dealing with fifty different health departments. You're source even admits it's pure guess work based on pre-Covid figures.
You really don't get how any of this works, do you/
I'm sure the fact that the CDC just said kids from 5-12 should get the shot has NO CORRELATION WHATSOEVER with this recent claim that COVID has killed off a bunch of kids in that exact age group in August and September.
The CDC.
On October 3rd, USA Today reported:
How bad is COVID-19 in kids? See the latest data and charts on kids cases; hospitalizations; deaths
How many kids have died of COVID-19?
Of the 73 million children in the U.S., fewer than 700 have died of COVID-19 during the course of the pandemic, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Rauch puts the figure into context using the number of people who can typically fit into a sports venue.
"Think about it in terms of football stadiums," Rauch said. "In 100,000 kids, one of them is not going to make it with COVID. Everyone else who walked in is going to walk out."
Can’t say the same for concerts in Houston.
When I was a teenager it wasn't a good show unless someone was taken to the hospital or killed.
Nothing better than watching the guy in the next row OD on something..
You ever seen a carnie tweaking behind a tent?
Have you ever been that carnie?
I was at the infamous Who concert in 1979 where that happened. 11 people died. At one point I was sure I was going to be one of them.
Crazy story.
8 dead is a lot
So, your beef is not that the claim is factually wrong. Your beef is that they don’t say that not many children die each year from any cause.
Why don’t you state clearly what your beef is?
My beef is it was an outright lie. 145000 children have NOT died from COVID.
One thing that gets overlooked is how many children have become orphans or lost a primary caregiver.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)01253-8/fulltext
My grandmother lost both parents to the Spanish flu and she and her sisters were orphaned.
897 children have died in nearly two years. We know from other statistics that a substantial portion of these children were already terminally ill and COVID pushed them over the edge. If you are dying from cancer and then get a cold, I blame the cancer, not the cold.
To compare, over 2000 children per year die in car crashes annually in this country.
So please pardon me if I disbelieve your "it's the most comment source of death" claim.
At our hospital, they test everyone for Covid, and they go into the Covid column if they test positive. They don't need to show any symptoms, just a positive test.
If they die, they are a Covid death. Even if they bleed out on the operating table, succumb to a long fight with cancer, or whatever.
Nobody has any idea how many people have died from Covid.
We do. The world used the WHO model of counting.
Counting with Covid instead of from Covid.
The number that’s from Covid is about 2.9% of the with number.
They also claim to be a news source
Reason number one why I do not watch that channel.
A three-clinger panel -- two of them Trump-nominated, and fresh from playing partisan matadors in waving Texas S.B. 8 past a challenge -- finds in favor of the wingnuts.
There does not appear much more to this backwater justice than that.
One asshole bigot here to spout his copy/paste bullshit.
Fuck off and die, asshsole.
One Asshole to rule them all, One Asshole to find them, One Asshole to bring them all and where sun doesn't shine bind them.
With amazingly accurate arguments about its unconstitutionality too. Those rascally Trumpers, using facts when we could be appropriately emoting at a sanitized distance our betters approved.
Kirkles prefers Stalin's show trials to backwater justice.
Ad Hominem: argument used by leftists when the facts don't fitvthe narrative.
So apart from displaying your bigoted prejudice against these judges because of the administration that was in place when they were named to the bench, do you have anything coherent to say about the ruling?
Bigotry is the best Kirkland’s got.
Gee, and there are options for treatment that don't include experimental drugs. Almost like the emergency mandate has no health related purpose but to push the poke.
https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/antiviral-therapy/
List has grown a lot.
The government of the USA loses wars and loses arguments by ignoring reality and principle. No mandate related to COVID. BUT...employers, including government can require vax or mask as a condition of employment at their discretion. Children are entirely different.
This isn't about the government's own employees, this is about the government fining private companies until they have their own mandate.
I think what we need is a kind of Warsaw Ghetto... but for the unvaxxed.
More ridiculous Nazi stuff from Diane. Poor snowflake thinks she lives on the Eastern Front.
Nuremberg Laws made it illegal for Jews to work in civil service positions.
and....?
Countering your dismissal of Nazi references regarding the COVID panic.
You have to always speak real slow with Joe.
So, you seriously think that a mandate on vaccines affecting public health - we've had them for over a hundred years and in this case you can opt for testing instead - signals an intent to send the unvaccinated and untested to death camps?
The Jews were prohibited from civil service in national socialist Germany due to law. Federal and some state employees are experiencing the same by losing their right to work there due to law. There is a parallel. I didn’t mention death camps nor did Paul. Stop strawmanning.
Chumby, there is no point in bringing up Nazis unless you intend to sow fear of their murderous totalitarian actions. Knock it off.
You might valso note that Jews in Nazi Germany couldn't get a free vaccine which is both exceedingly safe and effective to resolve ther being Jewish, or if that was just too much for them to bear - the Horror! - they can could get tested for carrying a disease once a week. No one is being singled out based on race or ethnicity and your comparison doesn't hold.
there is no point in bringing up Nazis unless you intend to sow fear of their murderous totalitarian actions.
The point is that these are also totalitarian actions, and that there is an increasing degree of dehumanization from certain quarters (ones with a lot of heft, politically) regarding the unvaxxed. If these ever get back to a live-and-let-live attitude here then maybe you can have a productive conversation. But as things stand you and those you support are the biggest obstacle to getting the remainder on board.
You might valso note that Jews in Nazi Germany couldn't get a free vaccine which is both exceedingly safe and effective to resolve ther being Jewish
Maybe not under Hitler, but prior regimes have offered such a thing.
Joe, this is totalitarian. Providing chaff and redirect helps continue it. Knock it off.
Being under the age of 50 with comorbidities is also exceedingly safe in regard to COVID.
Are you testing weekly?
Chumby, there is no point in bringing up Nazis unless you intend to sow fear of their murderous totalitarian actions. Knock it off.
Is bringing up the Maoists or the Stalinists and their murderous totalitarian actions considered kosher?
That you all claim the actions of a democratically elected government subject to checks and balances, including the possibility of being removed from office by citizens in the next election, and those actions are not directed at anyone by race or religious beliefs but based on entirely logical, safe, effective, and free procedures with no other goal than protecting the health of all Americans are "totalitarian" demonstrates your complete ignorance of history and what drama queen snowflakes you are. Thank our stars your type was rare to none existent during WWII.
You can get your jollies about locking up Japanese Americans. I still say it was wrong.
Did Hugo Chavez win some revolution, or was he elected?
Yes, checks and balances exists, to fend off totalitarian and nonsensical policy implemented by the executive branch. But "the existence of safeguard means there can be no tyranny" is obviously BS.
Gee Chumby, if bringing up an excess enacted 80 years ago during a World War which has been fully vetted, apologized for, and reparations presented, and which by the way did not include executions or torture, is the best you can do for claiming we live in a totalitarian country, you're pretty bankrupt for examples, aren't you.
Time to buy a clue.
"...logical, safe, effective..."
A great mantra to repeat when one is in dire need of relief from overwhelming cognitive dissonance.
*Gruppenführer Friday hides brownshirt, "Nazi? What Nazi?*
You'll Nazi them in brown, it's the greenshit gestapo now. But if you say "fuck Trump" he might give you a Himmler down that alley in appreciation.
Or, you know, people could grow up, be responsible and go get vaccinated voluntarily, instead of being partisan jerks.
Mike how many times - doesn't look like for the NBA once is enough https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/32575622/nba-recommending-covid-19-booster-shots-players-coaches-referees , when does this fear cycle end? Also may instead of talking about heard immunity through continuous shots maybe we should have just let it spread fast earlier on, I'd wager to say our rules may be prolonging this thing rather than cutting it short.
Every 45 days.
Just do what Mike tells you and this will all be over.
Oh, my. Someone might have to take 5 minutes to get a booster shot. Oppressive.
Fuck you, nazi.
What, and not be "FREE!"?
Scary concept, Barbie. Being personally accountable... Making decisions... Paying bills...
It's a big step, adulthood.
In matters of public health affecting the nation's health and economy, a large segment not being personally accountable, like you, requires laws and force. That's how we got through numerous challenges over the last century you'd be too big a snowflake to deal with. Why don't you engage in and encourage that personal accountability so we don't need the laws and force? You can't handle freedom which also requires responsibility.
Why don't you show me an actually deadly disease and we can talk for real, snowflake. But I don't jerk to your panic porn.
750,000 dead salted. Here's the dead rom other causes in America:
Number of deaths for leading causes of death:
Heart disease: 659,041
Cancer: 599,601
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 173,040
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 156,979
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 150,005
Alzheimer’s disease: 121,499
Diabetes: 87,647
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 51,565
Influenza and Pneumonia: 49,783
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 47,511
750k dead with COVID or from COVID? The answer: you don't even know, but you'll assume the latter anyhow.
I’m a lifelong libertarian, and this commentariat has made me disgusted with fellow libertarians who dont comprehend the principle that freedom / responsibility are two sides of the same coin.
freedom / responsibility are two sides of the same coin.
They certainly are not the way you use them. I am not responsible for you you worthless piece of shit. When you die gasping for air, I will scrape you off my shoe without a second thought.
Ooooh, what a he man you are Chuck. I'll bet the girls all swoon when you talk that way. And such a winning argument!
It's a very sorry bunch Mike, more republican than Libertarian and of similar morals and intelligence as their leader.
You two make a great couple. Thanks for all the theater!
"...requires laws and force"
That's you asshole. All over.
Or you could fuck right on off a cliff and we'd all be happy that way too. Give my way a try first and then we can do yours, yeah?
And others could grow up and listen to what people actually say and stop pretending it's all about American politics.
"being partisan jerks"?
Camela and Brandon are the ones that tried to frighten us brown folk into vax fear, or did your phone and television not tell you those facts?
Need the quotes pasted in here again?
Diane
Seems like you do not know much about the Warsaw ghetto.
The reference is specious and offensive. It does not contribute to an argument against government mandates for vaccination. There are good reasons to oppose it.
Around 250,000 people from there were rounded up and sent to Treblika. They were in starvation conditions. Do you know what happened there. Some who could put up a resistance with pistols and Molotov cocktails. They pushed the Waffen SS back at first. Near all of them perished. Treblinka could kill up to 12,000 a day. They are dust in the soil of that horror chamber. Up to 2,500,000 polish Jews were destroyed. Sobibor, Chelmo,
They were wiped out.
And you have the gall to make some analogy to that.
You have the chutzpah to make some cheap shot internet garbage out of it. Over a vaccine. Well do or don’t. I don’t care.
As an employer of many less than 100 people, I faced a problem with dealing with clients having unvaccinated employees entering their homes - I'm a builder who does new homes, but also remodels and additions. I explained to my employees that I couldn't and wouldn't force them to get vaccinated but there was coming a time - this was about 4 months ago - when masks, indecision, and excuses wouldn't fly with clients and they would not be able to do that type work for me anymore. Fortunately, they all got vaccinated and are happy and relieved they did. Avoidance was ruling before. I fully support the OSHA ruling but I can see where this needs to see court review and let's hope it's quick. As to the SC ruling about "vast 'economic and political significance.'", in this case the economic impact of mass vaccinations are good and their absence upsetting.
As an employer of many less than 100 people
Buying handies behind the 7Eleven doesn't make you an employer, and helping your mom around the house doesn't make you a builder.
So Mother, when did you gain this knowledge?
Your political beliefs strongly imply it.
And that he’s clearly full of shit is a solid second.
Were those homeowners demanding to see vax cards? Did you insist they comply with applicable HIPAA laws? I think you're lying.
Of course he is lying.
Matter of time Unicorn. I knew most of my clients were vaccinated - they tend to be smart and at least reasonably well off and with some we talked about it - and we can spend hours in their house. Even if not demanded, I would stop sending them in.
“I’ll take ‘things that never happened’ for 500, Alex”
Haha doosh, nobody believes this bullshit.
Try harder next time.
Funny thing is that while “smart” people have been vaccinated at a high rate, this is not true for the smartest people. Vaccination rates track with education levels, up through a bachelors degree, but drop sharply for those with doctorate degrees. A couple weeks ago, a number of PhDs left Los Alamos (DOE LANL) instead of getting vaxed.
Why shun the unvaccinated? If you're vaccinated then what does it matter?
Though being vaccinated makes it less likely you'll catch Covid, it is still possible.
Surely you know this already.
Shirley, you are a total asshat.
Right, and you might catch it from a vaccinated person too. Vaccinated are less likely to be tested and less likely to suspect covid when they get some mild respiratory symptoms. The unvaccinated may be more likely to spread it (though this is not clear at this point), but the difference is small enough that counting on other people being vaccinated is probably not rational. Like masks, these vaccines are likely largely giving people a false sense of security.
...and when the vaxxed are tested via PCR, they use fewer Ct's than are used for unvaxxed.
Actually, we do not know that the vaccinated are less likely to pass on the virus. It was surmised. That is it. But it was also assumed that these vaccines would all but eliminate catching the virus and passing it on at all. That was very publicly debunked in early July with the Provincetown superspreader event of heavily vaccinated partygoers.
There is an alternative theory that since the vaccines do not prevent spreading the virus, but merely reduce its symptoms, vaccinated people, who catch the virus, are sicker, longer, but knowing that they are vaccinated, don’t self quarantine as much when they are infected and spreading the virus, so actually spread it more, than if they were unvaccinated.
We actually don’t know which theory is more accurate.
That was very publicly debunked in early July with the Provincetown superspreader event of heavily vaccinated partygoers.
Not to mention literally every single "highly vaxxed" nation that had a surge at some point.
"Though being vaccinated makes it less likely you'll catch Covid, it is still possible."
Not really, vaccination only (albeit significantly) reduces the worst kind of symptoms. And even that is temporarily, since hospitalization among vaccinated people are going up a bit.
Vaccines are supposed to help YOU. It's personal protection against the unknown. I got vaccinated for the flu 4,5 years ago and I every time I entered a Walmart, I didn't stop everyone around me to ask "hey did you get vaccinated also? How about you? And you?"
Your suburban home modeling clients will gladly waive their fears of the unvaccinated if there was a tech labor shortage and unvaxxed specialist was available to fix your internet. Vax mandate of Joe Biden's wet dream will be a minor disaster for the nation, and building reflecting pool on your front yard will be the least of our worries.
There is ALREADY a labor shortage that logjammed supply. Vaccination protections wear off and more people will be added to the unvaxxed as they grow hesitant about getting jabbed 2,3 times a year. It's a quagmire.
Weren't you LAPD last week?
I believe LAPD is the name of his company - Lyin' Ass Plumbing and Drywall.
+2
Joe I wouldn't want anything you remodeled or built you probably cut corners and use asbestos- so wise too, the old forced choice but you have options story is pathetic and chest inflating for someone who wants to be morally superior but isn't.
MT-man, then you have bad taste and don't appreciate quality work. I have numerous AIA awards for projects I've done and am known for doing difficult and demanding high end work.
It says more about too many on this board that they think only people who agree with them politically are capable and good people. Some of my favorite subcontractors are very conservative politically and I take it as something smart people know that you don't pick talent by their politics.
Thought the designer won those awards. You a licensed architect too?
Retired cop too.
Seriously? Cite?
He and White Mike were on about how Joe's LAPD Friday or Saturday... Can't recall the article but it was a good laugh.
The AIA gives awards to both the architect and the builder for projects well done.
I am not an architect, but I do design work on a limited, problem solving basis, i.e., what are the clients trying to accomplish and on existing buildings, how can we integrate the addition or even make it look like part of the original.
I'm not that interesting compared to the issue which I had to deal with as an employer, but happy to answer questions
They let you hold a hammer last week... Very exciting, I know.
AIA awards are self-nominated for a fee.
Not to mention, he's a jerk, a bore, and shills for the Man.
EXCELLENT NEWS -- The Nazi-Regime and it's Nazi-Agencies are getting met with some resistance anyways.
Guess who's been mysteriously absent from the public eye for the last 12 days.
Ha ! Got the coof.
The worst case scenario for vax mandaters is that he had some kind of reaction to his vax.
Maybe he died from a booster shot. And they are attempting some sort of Weekend at Bernies deal with his carcass.
I think that was the case with Ginsberg ever since she fell asleep at a SOTU address.
I wonder what Newsom’s last public appearance was even about? See, I’m a Californian and when it comes to Gavin we just can’t recall!
Nice!
Oh please let Greusome take it in the face hard. That would bring me such joy.
PLEASE let this asshole have myocarditis and they're trying to keep his heart from exploding on him.
All my CA friends are extremely puzzled by this. The man is a narcissist, can't stand being out of the limelight and rarely goes even a few days without tweeting or making some kind of proclamation.
Biden demonstrates wind power at the climate summit.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10172959/Camilla-stopped-talking-hearing-President-break-wind-chat-Cop26-summit.html
Snopes is on it!
Fartgate. Lmao
"He is supposed to be committed to reducing emissions – but when President Joe Biden produced a little natural gas of his own at the COP26 summit, it was audible enough to make the Duchess of Cornwall blush."
'It was long and loud and impossible to ignore,' the source said. 'Camilla hasn't stopped talking about it.'
"...The plaintiffs argue that forgoing vaccination is analogous to refraining from purchasing government-approved medical insurance, a decision that a majority of the Court agreed could not be reached under the Commerce Clause in the 2012 Obamacare case..."
Justice Roberts will now declare the noncompliance penalties businesses face for not vaxing/testing/firing to be a TAX, and-- as such-- completely constitutional.
But Sloppy Joe promised not to raise taxes, so you've got to call it something else. Maybe mandate nationwide union dues?
IF a private company mandates that their current employees take the vaccine as a requirement to remain employed, then that company should be required to accept any liability when issues arise.
Seems like that is following the typical liberal view that employers are oppressors rather than the common libertarian view that employment is a voluntary agreement between employer and employee.
If you are going to demand I do something as a requirement to work, then it is on you to cover any expenses that your demand costs me.
Sure
The government already bought them. Just walk into CVS. Zero charge.
That started when that other guy was president.
And if they get me sick...all on the employer. You forced the issue. You deal with the consequences.
Then don’t do it.
Really if you are that worried about it do not.
I did not force anything. I got the vax for my own reasons. So did all of the adults in my family. My employer requested the card because of contracts.
You do or do not whatever you want.
I already got it because I have an immuno compromised wife and MIL. But nobody MADE me do it.
That is kinda the issue.
"Listen Jack, my patience with you is running out. I challenge you to a push-up contest, you little dog-faced pony soldier. And last but not least, time is money, and as one computer said, if you're on the train and they say Portal Bridge, you know you'd better make other plans."
Last week The New York Times reported that "legal experts say" OSHA "has the authority to introduce a vaccine mandate."
The NYT will report whatever it thinks will advance its anti-liberty agenda.
"Legal experts" being Laurence Tribe and who?
It's creepy how OSHA and Biden thought they could label other human beings as toxic substances or agents.
I haven't heard much debate about this, but one of the most interesting debates about Covid is this idea of collective responsibility. The basic facts about vaccination have not changed with time. No vaccine makes you bulletproof, but the more people are vaccinated, the better it works. That's a compelling reason to urge others to be vaccinated, but can you force them on the basis that your own efforts can be negated by theirs? Who is violating the NAP in this case?
Vaccines may be an issue where principles alone won't solve the problem, but the implications behind mandating health decisions are troubling. If you can be vaccinated against your will for the good of others, can the obese be placed in work camps? Can alcohol and drug use be re-criminalized or prevent you from accessing govt benefits? Can you be compelled to exercise or eat less? Can the govt ban driving? How about sports? How would the govt resolve a conflict between mandating exercise to avoid obesity and banning exercise to prevent injury? Can we eliminate bovines and cull the human race for excessive emissions?
These may sound like slippery slope hypotheticals, but there are a lot of things you can legally do that are a burden to society. I don't expect anyone in the mainstream to address this, but I would love to hear a debate on the following questions:
1. Do you have a legally enforceable collective responsibility to society?
2. If you do, what is the enforcement mechanism?
3. Where and how do you draw the line on indirect violations of the NAP?
The libertarian answer (I hope) is no, no exceptions, fuck off slaver, woodchipper, etc. but I would at least like the people pushing these mandates to consider the implications of their actions.
1. Yes, of course. Every law is a requirement for individuals to do (or refrain from doing) things for the interests of society as a whole.
2. Police.
3. The NAP is incoherent. You offer a good example why. Is it aggression to require someone to be vaccinated against a communicable disease, or is it aggression to recklessly spread a communicable disease?
The answer is not obvious. Maybe there is no answer. Maybe the NAP is not the right thing to appeal to, since it is incoherent.
Your response to #3 is fallacious. You assume that getting the vaccine is the only way to combat the spread of this disease. It's not. But health authorities follow the money, not "the science". Your reductive binary is the wishful thinking of a lazy mind.
1. I agree with you about obeying laws, but I was asking more fundamentally if it is moral to enshrine collective responsibility into law. In other words, whether laws should compel behavior that is not under your direct control. One of my concerns with compulsory vaccinations is the presumption that individuals have any control over the spread of disease. Communicable is a medical term, not a moral one. You can be vaccinated, boostered, wear your mask, have good hygiene, social distance, minimize contact, do everything perfectly and still get Covid, spread it, die from it, etc. This is a big part of why I'm worried we're stigmatizing Covid the way we did HIV/AIDS, but that's another subject entirely.
2. Are you really sure you want police going door to door enforcing vaccination? Remember that anything you put to police enforcement is a policy where you think it's worth killing someone to enforce it because that's exactly what's going to happen when people resist.
3. Both are aggression, but the first is easier to identify than the second. It isn't practical and it's extremely arbitrary to determine "reckless spread" of disease. Outside of degenerates like the pozzed community that fetishizhes the intentional spread of HIV/AIDS, nobody should be deemed reckless for having different risk tolerances. Some people don't want to live the rest of their lives in Isocubes to deal with a virus that 99.9% of us will survive.
The whole discussion is an example of how successfully the concept of "libertarianism" has been co-opted in a purely Orwellian way by the deep right.
On actual issues of civil liberties over time – 4th-8th amendments, full liberties for women, minorities, homosexuals etc. – rightists generally retain their traditional hostile stance.
For issues where there is some question of limiting ability to harm others, the blue face paint and Mel Gibson impressions come screaming out. Common "libertarian" positions against pollution regulation (as here, usually fueled with science denial if you scratch the surface of the "liberty!" preening) follow the same pattern. Government restricting your right to cause non-consenting harm to others are the only threats to liberty that merit endless rightist screeds.
NYT: Since the vaccine was developed, COVID death rates are higher in areas that voted for Trump, and the more they voted for Trump, the higher the death rates.
Stop. Don't. Come back.
More people have died under Biden than under Trump. Every single death, going with last year's precedent, is Fartin' Joe's fault, right?
Yep, because spreading covid contrarian urban myths like 'hospital deaths are fake' and appointing political zealots to science agencies ranting how "we want them infected" is the same as pushing vaccines aggressively, in terms of impact on national pandemic. It's just "reason".
...except the first thing never happened (literally never happened). And the vaccine, in case you missed it, was Trump's thing.
I want to know when the 'emergency' will be over. It's not a stretch to say that keeping this 'crisis' going enables this administration to do a lot of things it couldn't otherwise.
Like push vaccines!
Which um... why do they want to push vaccines again? Oh right because the socialists are in bed with the capitalists!!! Almost forgot for a second what I'm outraged about lol.
The biggest problem with the OSHA fascist order is that the vaccine does not prevent people from catching or spreading COVID, and vaccinated people have viral loads just as high as the unvaccinated. The vaccine ONLY protects the vaccinated person, and only by reducing the probability of hospitalization or death when they become infected. It doesn't protect anybody else.
Thus you are just as likely - actually more likely, now - to catch COVID from a vaccinated person than from the smaller population of unvaccinated people.
Which means the basis of the OSHA mandate isn't based on science.
Citation needed for these lies.
For viral loads:
https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people
From your hallowed temple of the CDC:
"Being fully vaccinated and wearing a mask maximizes protection against COVID-19 infection and reduces the chances of spreading it to others." (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html)
Notice that is says "maximizes protection" and "reduces the chance" instead of "prevents". Hence, it is completely reasonable to say, "the vaccine does not prevent people from catching or spreading COVID".
More from your church:
"Today, some of those data were published in CDC’s Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR), demonstrating that Delta infection resulted in similarly high SARS-CoV-2 viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated people." (https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0730-mmwr-covid-19.html)
Hence, it is reasonable to state: "vaccinated people have viral loads just as high as the unvaccinated."
His final point (more likely to catch COVID from a vaccinated person than from smaller unvaccinated population) is also a logical conclusion, given the former admissions of the CDC. It's a game of numbers -- there are just more vaccinated people out there.
Are your saints, sages and saviors of mankind lying to us, Tony?!
"Notice that is says "maximizes protection" and "reduces the chance" instead of "prevents". Hence, it is completely reasonable to say, "the vaccine does not prevent people from catching or spreading COVID" "
I enjoy these absurd contortions. For most people it is just that logic is too difficult, but it's clear part of you understands logical reasoning, it is just that the central primacy of grievance signaling overwhelms any impulse to reason.
"His final point (more likely to catch COVID from a vaccinated person than from smaller unvaccinated population) is also a logical conclusion"
Ah, I spoke too soon. Maybe it really is simply that logic is too difficult.
Another big problem? The OSHA ETS cites "grave" danger to workers from contracting and dying of the virus. But 80 percent of people who have died of COVID in the U.S. are over the age of 65—in other words, not even IN the workforce!
Not to mention that it's virtually impossible to know where someone got infected and when. On the job? At the grocery store? At grandpa's memorial? While shopping? On the plane?
Our government is ridiculously stupid.
no, riduculously deceitful.
NO ONE is in the work force.
100 MILLON out of work.
Thats 1/3 rd of the total population.
And while we're at it can we get rid of the damn federal contractor/contractor adjacent mandate? That's also totally no bueno. We do ZERO fed contracts but our largest client does. Ergo, it's the jabbo for us or we turn off the lights (good luck, Biden, hope you got a whole lot of Starbucks baristas who can step in and do complex infrastructure work when all we formerly essential workers walk).
Aside from the Democrats trying to avoid the fact we're a representative Republic, they now have a White House who believes it can do whatever it wants. If the law says they can't do it directly, they'll us OSHA as a work around. The courts need to stop this.
this is same as the Democrats using EPA to harass Citizens over environmental issues.
President TRUMP ordered them to stop doing so.
Can you imagine the EPA thinking it is empowered to harrass citizens over environmental issues?
Unrestrained rights to dump pollution and negative externalities onto others and force them to manage the impact and cost against their will is the very essence of Constitutional freedom!
In all of history, is there any more clear an example of utter tyranny than having employees take a weekly swab test during a global pandemic?
None that I can think of.
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its an E. O.
E.O. DO NOT have force of Public Law.
Read some of them...thats stated at the end of each one, or at least used to be
Stock photo above. Fake vaccine vials with clear water and no bar coding and an INSULIN syringe
Are we THAT stupid, America?
we're outraged by... stock photos?
Just trying to keep up with all the things to be outraged about in these dark times of vaccines.
Those who choose vaccination are like a prostitute who continually returns to their pimp, who in turn, uses them as an ashtray to extinguish a cigarette butt.
Thanks for such post and please keep it up.
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amazing write-up
“Amazing write-up!”
Dee is Riley Berg.
Sure, but why should Kinzinger give a shit? His district just got gerrymandered into oblivion, and his name is pretty much a curse word in his own party at this point. Unless he decides to switch parties for a future statewide office run, he basically nuked his political career to be the House version of John McCain. So his only other real options at this point are to get a media consultant gig, or sign up with the Lincoln Project as a board member.
What motivation would he (and Gonzales, who also had his district eliminated) have to NOT vote for the bill?
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Read the rticle much? Or are you just spamming gain?
A "commment" should have at least SOME connexion to the subject matter of the article being commented upon......
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And its more than 140 characters lpng so they wont be able to read it
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"So his only other real options at this point are to get a media consultant gig, or sign up with the Lincoln Project as a board member."
Yeah, I can see him either diddling or covering for others who diddle children.
I am making $165 an hour working from home.
And they say there's no inflation...
RINOs like Kinzimger should be rounded up and out in prison. He’s a traitor.
No. Just sent to CNN where nobody has to take you seriously ever again.
I have an issue with the left dehumanizing people by using outrageous definitions an hyperboly, ie: disagreeing with BLM is racist.
So I would like to point out that it is a great stretch to say that Kinzinger has committed the crime of treason. And that if he is a traitor, he is not a traitor by legal standards, and prison is therefor inappropriate.
May I suggest that you switch 'traitor' to 'disgrace'? Or do you not care that you come across as being as hateful as the left?
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