Oklahoma Botches Another Execution
John Marion Grant convulsed and vomited as he was put to death.

Oklahoma executed its first death row inmate in six years on Thursday afternoon, and according to witnesses, he began vomiting and convulsing before his death.
John Marion Grant, 60, was declared dead at 4:21 p.m. about 20 minutes after he was administered the lethal drugs. According to Associated Press coverage of Grant's execution, he began vomiting and convulsing after he was given the sedative midazolam. A retired A.P. reporter who has covered about 450 executions in his life said he'd only ever seen one other prisoner vomit as he was being put to death.
It's a morbid and troubling outcome for Oklahoma, which had put a moratorium on executions in place due to complications with their drugs and protocols. In 2014, when the state attempted to execute Clayton Lockett, he remained conscious and struggling for minutes after he should have been dead. Later, state officials admitted they had botched the execution and that Lockett had ultimately died of a heart attack long after the drugs should have killed him.
An investigation followed suit, but Oklahoma decided nevertheless to maintain these lethal injection protocols and announced its plan in 2020 to restart executions. About 30 inmates on death row in Oklahoma have sued to stop this system of executions, arguing that it violates the Constitution's prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment. That case goes before a federal judge next year, but the Oklahoma City Free Press notes that Grant and another death row inmate, Julius Jones, were kicked out of the lawsuit for failing to propose an alternative method of execution.
Grant was convicted of killing prison cafeteria worker Gay Carter in 1998 while he was on work detail serving a 130-year sentence at Dick Conner Correctional Center in Hominy, Oklahoma.
On Wednesday, the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals granted Grant a stay of execution to pursue these Eighth Amendment claims. But Oklahoma Attorney General John O'Connor appealed to the Supreme Court. The justices decided 5–3 to lift the stay and allow Grant's execution to move forward. Justices Stephen Breyer, Sonia Sotomayor, and Elena Kagan dissented. The three justices have repeatedly called on their peers for the past few years to take up these cases and consider the arguments being presented, but they have been outvoted.
Grant may not exactly inspire feelings of mercy—according to the A.P., he was spouting out "a stream of profanities" as he was being injected. But also on death row in Oklahoma right now is a man named Richard Glossip, a man who many believe is innocent and does not belong there. Glossip technically killed nobody, but he was convicted twice and sent to death row for allegedly masterminding the 1997 murder of his boss, a motel owner named Barry Van Treese. Justin Sneed, who was 19 at the time, actually killed Van Treese, but claimed that Glossip pushed him to carry out the crime in exchange for money and a promotion. Sneed was sentenced to life in prison. Glossip was sentenced to death.
There's no evidence that actually backs up Sneed's claim. In fact, there's video of a police interview never seen by the jury that shows a detective pushing Sneed to lay the blame on Glossip.
Glossip was nearly executed in 2015 but was saved by an execution moratorium. He was the plaintiff in a Supreme Court case that year where justices narrowly ruled, 5–4, that midazolam may be used as a sedative in combination with other drugs for lethal injections and that it does not constitute cruel and unusual punishment under the Eighth Amendment. This was the same drug administered to Grant before his convulsions.
The Marshall Project reported in April that the Glossip case had been prompting some Republicans in Oklahoma to reconsider the use of the death penalty entirely, or at least weigh making it easier for an innocent person to make his case. Similar considerations by conservatives are happening elsewhere in the country:
Earlier this year, Virginia became the first Southern state to repeal the death penalty after three Republicans voted with the state legislature's Democratic majority. A Marshall Project review found that in roughly half the states with an active death penalty system, Republican lawmakers have recently sponsored or written bills to ban or constrain the punishment, or to help potentially innocent prisoners avoid it.
In the meantime, Julius Jones is scheduled for execution on November 18. He, unlike Grant, continues to insist he's innocent. He was convicted of shooting and killing an Oklahoma City businessman in 1999, though he insists he was framed by a former co-defendant who testified against him. He has a clemency hearing set for next week, and Oklahoma's Pardon and Parole Board has recommended that Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt commute his sentence to life in prison.
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John Marion Grant convulsed and vomited as he was put to death.
So, death with COVID?
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Biden killing folks domestically? Thought the botcher got his fill with Afghani children.
Haven't you been reading Mr. Buttplug's posts? Everything that went wrong in Afghanistan this year was Drumpf's fault. Juan Cole said so.
#DefendBidenAtAllCosts
Screw you Biden apologists!
OBL is a national treasure. Leave. Him. Alone.
That description of the execution does not fit the adjective "botched". Grant ended up dead, on schedule, and by a means considerably more humane than he used on his victim.
Death is messy. Get over it.
Cases like Glossip are tragic and potentially unjust. Those cases are relevant to the question of whether we should have a death penalty. Glossip's case, however, is utterly irrelevant to the question of how we carry out the death penalty. It's inclusion in this article is a tacit admission that the author doesn't actually have anything persuasive to say about this execution.
In case it's not clear, my personal opinion is that:
a. We should not have a death penalty because of the inherent imperfection of human knowledge and judgement.
b. But if we must have a death penalty, the proper boundary on the means of execution is the degree of mercy the murderer showed to his/her own victims.
So government torture then. Something in the constitution about cruel and unusual punishment.
Torture for it's own sake or as an investigative technique? No because we have hard data showing that it's ineffective.
Torture as a means of execution? If the murderer tortured his/her victims, retaliation in kind is not beyond the pale.
Constitutional limits? Important in other contexts but not relevant to normative opinions about what the societal rules should be.
Only monsters and psychopaths intentionally torture people to death which is what you are advocating. It is a sickening suggestion.
Locking people in a cage until they die isn't torture? Would you feel better if we called it rehabilitation?
People survive in prison. Modern prisons are not medieval dungeons.
Survival is not the measure of whether something is or is not torture. And while you are correct that modern prisons are not medieval dungeons, in some ways they are worse (depending of course on which prison and which dungeon you compare). As mad suggests, what we do in prisons is already torture.
If it is the case that prisons are so bad that they are worse than death, then the solution is NOT to send more people to the gallows in order to 'spare' them, the solution is to reform prisons so that they AREN'T equivalent to medieval dungeons.
How should a murderer spend the rest of his days? Describe the comfort level you envision.
True. And irrelevant to the rebuttal of Echospinner's opinion.
Torture as a means of execution? If the murderer tortured his/her victims, retaliation in kind is not beyond the pale.
Yeah, kinda hard to say when a citizen does it, that it's unusual. Punishing torturers with torture is certainly 'eye for an eye', but it's not unusual or even out of place really. Punishing jaywalkers with torture would be unusual.
The biblical phrase is mistranslated. It says an eye in place (tachat) of an eye. It means something like monetary compensation. What would be the point of gouging out the other persons eye? It won’t bring yours back.
There is death penalty in the Bible but the rabbis created laws and conditions such that it could never happen thousands of years ago.
Many countries have done the same. The law is still on the books but they have banned it in practice. Russia for example. Israel also after Eichmann.
Nearly complete crap.
The "eye-for-an-eye" injunction really meant an "eye-for-an-eye", although the victim could elect monetary compensation instead, if it were offered. The "eye-for-an-eye" injunction was actually a move toward mercy as it constrained vengeance to be proportional to the crime. In the absence of an "eye-for-an-eye" the retaliation would entail death.
The idea that there was some practical prohibition on the death penalty in Judaism "thousands of years ago" is so silly as to be beyond words. People were put to death all the time and it was completely accepted. At the time of Jesus, the Romans had a monopoly on executions, but the Jewish courts could send them people to kill. There were also non-judicial executions, such as the (near) execution of the adulterous woman in which Jesus intervened.
Jews had and performed the DP. Christians had and performed the DP. Muslims had and performed the DP.
Anything else is pure nonsensical revisionism.
Kinda makes sense what with Echospinner being a postmodernist neo-Marxist bootlicking faggot bitch.
From the orthodox source Aish.
The Talmud, in fact, records a lengthy discussion of this verse, (Bava Kama 83b-84a). The Talmudic sages bring a number of compelling proofs, both logically and from the inference of other verses, showing one should not even entertain the thought that "an eye for an eye" is to be taken literally. Maimonides, the renowned 12th century sage, further cites the verses in Exodus 21:18-19 which openly speak of damages in terms of monetary payment. Hence, a few verses later when the Torah speaks of "an eye for and eye…" it is obviously referring to the same sort of payment.”
“ Such stringencies are often understood to account for the famous Mishnah passage that states that if a Sanhedrin executed one person in seven years, it was considered destructive. Rabbi Elazar Ben Azariah objects that the standard is actually once in 70 years, and Rabbis Tarfon and Akiva say that had they served on the court, no one would have ever been executed.”
The judgement had to come from a Sanhedrin (high court) the last one was disbanded following the failed rebellion against Rome. So in practice it either never or nearly ever happened and has not for at around 2000 years. I won’t go into the legal requirements for a conviction but it would have been nearly impossible.
There is nothing in Halacha that permits sending someone to an outside source to be executed. Some mobs may have done that but it would have been extra judicial.
Torture as a means of execution? If the murderer tortured his/her victims, retaliation in kind is not beyond the pale.
Then let's call it the "Retaliation System" instead of the "Justice System".
So, then, do away with presumption of innocence, trials, lawyers, juries, and judges?
Yet another fucked up view that considers the justice system in the narrow window of it's punishment.
Why not just call it the 'Response System'?
But at least a wrongful conviction can be overturned and it happens. Taking a life is final.
"Taking a life is final."
I disagree that being imprisoned for 70 years of your life isn't just as final. Yeah, you might have 10 years of something else, but those 70 years cannot be changed. They are gone.
I would much rather we think of imprisonment as JUST AS BAD as state sponsored murder. Life is precious whether it is spent in a concrete box at Riker's or in a wooden box 6 feet down. And I worry that if execution WERE outlawed, far too many people would console themselves that the harm is over, when the real problem- a system that gets conviction wrong far too often- still exists.
^Exactly. 100%.
A prosecutor friend of mine told me that innocent people should hope that the DP is a possible punishment as their cases will be examined much more carefully.
So, then, do away with presumption of innocence, trials, lawyers, juries, and judges?
No, I am opposed to the death penalty. I rather prefer that the state not have the legal authority to execute people.
The state will always have the legal authority to execute people so long as there is an army or police force.
I would prefer that the state have the authority to save innocent lives.
Get over it.
So then you believe Michael Byrd should be prosecuted for summarily executing an unarmed woman by shooting her in the face after pouncing from a concealed position without announcing himself? Oh wait, that's different because wypipo.
Die of stomach cancer you subhuman Nazi piece of shit. Nice and slow.
Except for abortions, of course.
I'm not. There are some people who need to be removed from the human race permanently.
Some of the worst murderers have remained in prison for life while the taxpayers are bilked to keep their worthless asses alive until they die a natural death which is more than they gave their victims.
So excuse me if I don't go along with your liberal b.s.
F***em.
Classically, there are five goals of a criminal justice system. Rehabilitation is only one of them - and rehabilitation is off the table by definition once you have imposed the death penalty. Restoration is also generally off the table for any modern crime that qualifies for the death penalty. You can't, for example, unmurder your victim.
That leaves you with Deterrence, Incapacitation and, as relevant here, Retribution.
No no Rossami, the only purpose of the justice system is to make criminals comfortable and happy and ensure that they have the maximum opportunity to victimize innocent people.
"Retaliation" is synonymous with "justice"; abstracting the process to the state was a means of making retaliation proportional to the crime instead of having blood feuds and lynch mobs you historically illiterate dumbfuck.
Just for the record: unless an action is BOTH cruel and unusual, it is not punishment. You can't punish with pleasurable actions.
What the US Constitution prohibits is torture.
I favor cruel and unusual punishment for cruel and unusual crimes.
Rossami. The issue is that the state is overburdened. The combination of regulations on drugs is like saying they must kill a man in a single stroke of a scalpel of a certain brand, but the brand is almost impossible to find due to activists deliberately making it hard to find, and you have to be jumping on one foot.
It's easy to kill people with medicines. In fact it's so easy that we have entire professions dedicated to not killing people with medicines.
Give him a 30x-100x dose of morphine and his death will be painless, swift, and certain. The fact that the state doesn't allow this is the real tragedy.
^+10.
Morphine is a shitty euthanasia agent and isn't used anywhere euthanasia is legal. Massive barbiturate overdoses are the most comfortable way to die and the preferred method everywhere euthanasia is legal. But your point still stands: the reason that patients seeking legal euthanasia in Oregon and Washington State for example had to pay about $7,000 for a $10 handful of Seconal before it was completely removed from the US market is because the death penalty activists made it impossible to manufacture, import or obtain anywhere in the United States. Physicians providing patients with voluntary, legal euthanasia in those states now have to use a 3-drug cocktail substitute that still costs over a thousand dollars and has caused severe chemical burns, vomiting, convulsions, and agonizing deaths in some patients. Because the death penalty activists are just such compassionate little cunts. Same reason they like seeing 8 month old fetuses torn apart limb from limb with forceps, careful to preserve the heads and torsos for sale on the fetal organ market. But
ChristSanger-forbid a sadistic killer should work a nerve during his execution.I am against CP for a host of reasons but I really hate the tactic used by the CP prohibitionists stopping drug manufacturers from selling their wares to the prisons. That isn't going to stop CP and only seems to make the process so much more difficult on the people they are trying to help.
They should bring back Ol' Sparky. There's something satisfying in the decisive ZAP! of an electric chair.
Death penalty opponents have only themselves to thank for this outcome. They e fought tooth and nail to prevent states from using more reliable chemical cocktails.
This is the outcome.
Reason still hasn't written/published anything denouncing the murder of Ashli Babbitt by a Capitol Police Officer.
Some executions are better than others.
And some of the executed are more deplorable than others. Those don't count for too much. I can't say too much about Lt. Byrd, but. . . .
Why would they? Koch-funded libertarians — like their progressive friends — think Capitol Police are heroes even though all other American cops are racist psychopaths.
#Defund(Some)Police
Yep, that guard woke up that morning planning to kill Ashli. Then as luck would have it she showed up at his work! Imagine that! So with forethought and malice he patiently waited for his chance, and then BLAM he took it! Yessir. That was murder alright. Premeditated Murder One. No argument about it.
She has become a real hero to the deluded trumpists. Sadly she died because of a deluded fantasy encouraged by a defeated ex president. She put herself in a very dangerous situation for nothing.
Here we have a real tragedy and important issue for thoughtful discussion and that is all they can think about.
She didn’t puke, so it’s all good.
And it's not like she was a saint. She had had two protection orders against her and she defaulted on a business loan. Additionally she subscribed to more conspiracy theories than Nardz and from what I can tell was generally nutty. And when she was shot she was wearing a Trump flag like a cape. Like I said, nutty.
None of that is to say she deserved to be shot. But breaching a barricade in a federal building that's guarded by men with guns is, I dunno, unwise? Stupid? Thoughtless? Feckless? Suicidal?
"she was wearing a Trump flag like a cape"
...and a short skirt.
Ah yes. Accuse me of victim blaming. That was expected. Gotta make it personal.
She had taken fentanyl - she was going to die anyway, the cop simply speeded up the inevitable.
Avoid blaming the victim and it is much less likely that people will (correctly) point out that you did.
That's all you ever do. Just like how your wife and kids left you because they were cunts and little assholes.
"Gotta make it personal."
Lol, coming from the fucking piece of shit saying that an unarmed woman deserved to be shot in the face because she defaulted on a business loan.
Die of cancer you disgusting piece of shit.
In other words, the female Sarcasmic.
Yikes!
George Floyd was totally murdered though. He wuz a good boy. A gentle giant.
He wuz plannin to become a brain surgeon.
Additionally she subscribed to more conspiracy theories than Nardz
Did she believe that the president of the United States was a Russian intelligence asset working for Vladimir Putin through a secret backchannel computer server connected to Alfa Bank like you?
"None of that is to say she deserved to be shot. But breaching a barricade in a federal building that's guarded by men with guns is, I dunno, unwise? Stupid? Thoughtless? Feckless? Suicidal?"
Weird how many other armed men did NOT see the need to shoot her? Many closer than the lame pig who did shoot her was.
Kind of like how George Floyd, Jacob Blake and Michael Brown have become real heroes to Marxist race baiting psychopaths like you and sarcasmic. Only with the slight difference that Ashli Babbitt was actually an unarmed victim murdered by police instead of a violent crackhead stroking out after swallowing his stash, or a strong arm robber attacking a cop after heisting a convenience store, or a fleeing kidnapper armed with a knife trying to abduct a woman and children in a stolen car. But there's no value in an innocent, unarmed white woman being murdered by a cop. It's only useful if it's a drugged out, violent "inner city youth" catching a bullet during the commission of a violent crime or accidentally killing himself with drugs.
Right, Joe Biden is the most popular President in history and there was no opportunity or appearance of fraud in the election according to morons like you. Go back to DU you'll feel more at home.
I do not see any statues in her honor anywhere.
Cannot say the same about George Floyd, who might have had more issues than Babbitt had.
To marxists, his problems are badges of honor and make him better.
Premeditation can be formed in one second.
You guys accusing a guard of murder for doing his job in the face of an angry mob is as idiotic as calling the mob a bunch of peaceful tourists. Though it seems that most on this board believe both of those things.
He shot an unarmed, crawling, middle age woman --with a SWAT team a few steps behind her -- point blank.
Remember that 12 months you spent accusing uniformed federal marshals in marked vehicles arresting violent psychopaths who beat hundreds of people and tried to burn down a federal courthouse after locking the occupants inside of being fascist Nazi gestapo? Because everybody else here does.
Given the charges against them, yeah, peaceful tourists who got lost is more apt of a description.
And given the FBI's recent modus operandi, how many of the problem people were FBI informants? I mean, the FBI did invent a plot to kidnap Whitmer out of thin air.
You are indeed an idiot, and most readers don't fall for straw man arguments.
100% correct, actually. The cowardly piece of shit hid like a pathetic cowardly bitch, lying in wait behind a barricade, then jumped out without warning and without speaking a word as soon as he saw an unarmed woman with both of her hands on the sides of a window frame and shot her in the face. The only thing lower than that cowardly piece of shit is pieces of shit like you who lick his balls because you hate his victim. You're a deranged, psychotic piece of shit and I hope with the utmost sincerity that you die an agonizingly painful, slow death, hopefully at the hands of the same cowardly piece of shit Nazis whose balls you gargle.
well put. sarc is seriously fucked up.
"John Marion Grant, 60"
That's too bad. At that age he could still have devoted a few years to providing cost-effective labor for Reason.com's benefactor Charles Koch.
#EmptyThePrisons
And maybe do some voting while in jail.
I’m sure he has already been added to the Virginia voter rolls just in time for the governor’s election. Now that he is dead, he has even mailed in his ballot.
Never give the state the power of execution.
Never give the state the power of execution.
I agree. And, excepting the military, the US has not. The power of execution is reserved to the people. A jury decided he should die.
You really trust our legal system that much? Police, detectives, forensic labs never plant, or withhold evidence. Labs do not make mistakes intentional or not. Prosecutors never withhold evidence or testimony which would favor the defendant. Witnesses never lie. Judges never allow or disallow testimony or evidence which might influence the jury. Juries are more influenced by emotion than fact.
And you trust some clerk from the local convenience store to make the right decision.
And you trust some clerk from the local convenience store to make the right decision.
I trust them more than you. The fact that you think ordinary people can't make serious decision is an indication that you should not be taken seriously.
And notice that your response completely spins away from what I actually said. That is not honest discourse.
Conflate and confuse. Conflate and confuse. Conflate and confuse.
Juries make wrong decisions all the time. They tend to judge more on perceived character and emotion than on facts. I have been coached by attorneys for depositions in civil cases. It is one of the first things they tell you.
So what evidence was planted, withheld, or mistaken in this case of a prisoner stabbing a woman 16 times with a sharpened screwdriver?
Unless it's a black cop lying in wait like a cowardly piece of shit and then leaping forward from the shadows unannounced to shoot an unarmed white woman in the face, right you mendacious piece of shit?
I hope you wife gets raped and murdered in front of you.
We share that practice with such beacons of liberty and human rights as China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait. It has been abolished in nearly every civilized country in law or in practice.
Makes you proud to be an American, doesn’t it?
Nobody gets killed by the Chinese government.
Other civilized countries censor the Internet, too. That is, even more than the U. S. (that we know of).
We also reserve other greater liberties than other countries do.
Not entirely clear that burdening the survivors of Breivik's victims with the cost of his continued detention and regular appeals constitutes civilized either.
Not entirely clear that burdening the survivors of Breivik's victims with the cost of his continued detention and regular appeals constitutes civilized either.
LOL! I almost wrote exactly the same thing. Echo is not a very deep thinker.
Japan is about the only other decent place I know of and they should abolish it as well.
Funny how you didn't "know of" Japan until your brainless know-nothing face was rubbed in it.
Yes. Yes it does.
Why did you leave off Japan?
They breath O2 there, maybe you should forego that so not to be like those tyrants.
Why didn't you mention Japan? Do you not consider them civilized?
The three largest democracies in the world are (in this order): India, the United States, and Japan.
All three have the death penalty.
Go back to your fainting couch, Boris.
You are clearly very sincerely concerned with human rights abuses. It's understandable then why you support economic sanctions against China, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Oh wait, you're a Marxist piece of shit apologist for China who has advocated for removing all trade barriers with China, including American businesses using enslaved political prisoners to perform labor in manufacturing their products. And supported the Obama nuclear deal giving pallets of cash to the Mullahs and restarting their stalled nuclear weapons program. Why it's almost like you're not sincerely concerned with human rights abuses at all and you're actually just a stupid, mendacious piece of shit.
I hope your wife's rapist and killer makes you suck her bloody cunt juices off his cock afterwards. And then gets acquitted by a jury full of racist pieces of shit just like you.
Economic sanctions do not reduce human rights abuses. China and Iran for example have gotten worse. Governments respond to economic pressure by cracking down on on their population to suppress dissent.
"Grant and another death row inmate, Julius Jones, were kicked out of the lawsuit for failing to propose an alternative method of execution."
You'd think if his (or his lawyers') objection was to the *method* of execution they'd have suggested something more humane.
Unless they objected to any form of the death penalty?
The anti-death penalty activists WANT executions to be painful and ugly because it helps their cause. That's why they lobby against quick and effective means and pressure drug manufacturers and medical paraprofessionals not to cooperate.
It would be unethical for them to do so (see Hippocrates). It has nothing to do with public pressure. History also shows that it can have terrible consequences when medicos participate in such things.
I would be against doctors taking part in executions. But of course that would include executing the innocent unborn, so it's not as if my ideas are accepted.
As a libertarian, you should be against doctors having a monopoly on the use of drugs and medical procedures. That's the real problem; not the ethical rules doctors set for themselves.
Drug companies don't take the Hippcratic oath, idiot. They sell chemicals.
The Hippcratic oath contains a prohibition on abortion, but many doctors manage to ignore that these days.
Actually very few if any medical schools or other medical professions have any oath. There are a set of ethical principles which are accepted in the community. They are standards of practice. It is not law. It has nothing to do with oath.
I brought up Hippocrates because his writings set up some wisdom which is more than I can go into. To kill someone in no medical distress is against everything you sign up for. Medicos are not your executioners. Medicine is not the agent of the state or court and loses all standing when it goes there.
To mop those floors requires me to understand that cleaning and disinfecting them means doing that job as best I can. The safety of patients and workers depends on it.
Medicine is not the agent of the state
The state has granted doctors a monopoly on access to drugs and procedures. That makes them agents of the state, to some extent at least. Take away that monopoly, then I'll agree that the people through the state have no right to tell doctors what to do.
So you oppose abortion too, right?
Finding a vein is generally easy. These things get botched because using these drugs properly even for a lethal dose takes a lot of skill and training. A paraprofessional would not be of much help.
Even for therapeutic doses there is no magic formula. People respond differently. That is why they titrate a drug like midazolam and check response.
People respond differently to normal doses.
Everyone responds the same to a massive dose of opioids. Their hearts stop.
Oh sure and you can kill someone with fire, shotgun, strangulation, poison, stoning, how many ways to kill.
That is not the point. When you give the state the power to kill you have gone far past any pretense of individual rights or liberty. You have given the government that power. Never do that.
You never look more ignorant, stupid, and pathetic than when you pretend to be a physician and don't know how drugs work. High school dropout junkies and drug store phlebotomists with 2 weeks of training can find a vein consistently. Administering lethal doses of drugs is so easy that hundreds of people do it every year with veterinary Nembutal obtained from South American farm supply stores because pieces of shit like you have made it impossible to obtain the drug legally in the United States. There is not a single drug whose lethality is diminished by using TOO MUCH. Calculating therapeutic doses is complicated. Delivering lethal doses is so simple you could probably do it, with enough instruction.
The Pro-Death Penalty folks aren't doing very well either.
Put a mask on that guy and switch it from oxygen to Carbon Monoxide or Helium. Within moments he will be unconscious and in a few more minutes he will be dead, without muss or fuss.
Why Oklahoma is so hung up on lethal injection is a mystery to me.
Nitrogen is best. They are out cold almost instantly, but it's completely safe as soon as it gets mixed with outside air. They go to sleep and don't wake up.
Nitrogen is the most dangerous industrial chemical by far, with the only thing close being steam.
Oklahoma is "hung up" on lethal injection because all methods of execution must but SCOTUS approved.
It doesn't matter how good an idea you have for a painless and sure execution, no state can use it unless SCOTUS approves it and that can only happen if a case gets to SCOTUS.
So, if you actually want to execute people -- instead of litigating for 10 years -- lethal injection is essentially the only game in town.
Interestingly enough, you abject fucking moron, Oklahoma introduced nitrogen hypoxia as a method of execution 3 fucking years ago.
Why you're so hung up on being an ignorant sack of shit is a mystery to me.
In my opinion the question of executions is the execution, not whether or not someone might say "owie" or get a little queasy during the process.
I've never understood why they fuck around with these drug cocktails for executions. If the idea is to kill the convict quickly and efficiently while minimizing his suffering, why not just put them under with standard surgical anesthetic and then kill them with any means handy—suffocation, gun shot, whatever. They won't feel a thing and death is quick and certain.
Somehow, millions of suffering animals are put down every year by veterinarians who assure their owners that "It's peaceful, humane, they won't feel a thing, they'll just quietly go to sleep" yet we can't seem to do this with a human? I don't get it.
Yes, the same COULD be done with humans. I don't get it either.
Animals can’t necessarily express that they aren’t feeling pain.
And that has crossed my mind-- that we've been lied to our entire lives by our veterinarians.
Have you ever been put under with surgical anesthetics? There's no reason to believe that other mammals experience it any differently.
I think they use a barbiturate until the animal is out followed by potassium to stop the heart.
One of the controversial things here is the prisons can’t get ahold of the barbiturate so they are using a different combination.
In any case I am opposed to execution under any circumstances.
Except by gunshot to the face, as you admitted earlier you bootlicking Nazi sack of shit.
Not at all the same thing as a judicial execution. And I never said that cop did the right thing.
I've watched many of my pets be euthanized. They use the exact same barbiturate that's used to euthanize human beings in the few places where it's legal. A man in the Netherlands allowed his assisted suicide by barbiturate overdose to be filmed. I've watched that too. The animal, be it a dog, cat, or human being, feels nothing, unless you believe that it's possible to feel agonizing pain while unconscious. Having been unconscious under varying circumstances on multiple occasions I can tell you that I certainly felt nothing. YMMV.
OK, I've shot a few rabid dogs, killed untold numbers of feral cats, slaughtered even larger numbers of game and livestock but, damn, the idea that's fucked up.
About a year ago, I missed a family vacation because we had to put a dog down. I'd said for more 6 mos. prior that the dog should've been put down sooner. It was pretty clear that whatever they used to put the dog down releived the pain and did so exceedingly quickly.
I can attest to that. I heard my 16 yo Yorkie when we had her put down at home. First shot was a relaxant and the second stoped her heart. She was gone within 5 seconds of that shot as I felt her heart stop. It was very humane and peaceful.
I've seen animals die in pain. The idea that animals put to death by a vet are suffering any meaningful pain is pretty wilfully stupid. Yeah, it probably hurts a lot when the needle goes in.
Well, as has been said earlier. The activists don't want safe, humane executions. They want them to be as gruesome and horrible as possible so that people stop the death penalty completely.
The guillotine or a bullet to the back of the head are as quick and painless as possible and make more sense than a quasi-medical procedure performed by untrained prison guards.
To the best of my knowledge, "untrained prison guards" do not perform executions. There is usually an executioner who's familiar and trained on the particular methods used.
I have seen that paramedics have been used. If they can find one.
Pretty much all doctors, nurses, and health professionals are forbidden from participating in executions by their organizations and taking oaths to do no harm, preserve life, etc. I have heard they’ve used phlebotomists to find veins but the real problem is administering the drugs. There is a reason anesthesiologists have such high malpractice insurance. If you’re trying to kill someone, maybe it doesn’t matter, but the whole point of lethal injection is that it is supposed to be more humane than the electric chair or firing squad. Clearly it is not, so why pretend?
Yes.
Medicine needs to set a wall. It stops there.
I am against execution of prisoners by the state in any circumstance.
So what do we do with an armed robber who stabs a prison cook 16 times with a sharpened screwdriver because he didn't get Cheerios on his breakfast tray?
Personally, I would have hanged him after the armed robbery.
Wait until he drops his knife and then shoot him in the face and Echospinner will support it. Oh wait, he probably won't, because he only supports summary execution by shooting for unarmed white women, and only when it's performed by cowardly black cops hiding like pussies behind a barricade.
Self defense is not the same thing. I support that.
Sure you would have. How many hangings have you done?
Indefinite detention without trial and savage beatings until the prisoner is blinded in one eye are A-OK though.
So physicians in Washington State, Oregon, Vermont, Montana, California, Colorado, Maine, New Jersey and D.C. should lose their license to practice if they administer legal euthanasia? Physicians in all 50 states who perform abortions should lose their board certifications? Physicians in Canada, Switzerland and the Netherlands should not be allowed to practice?
Sounds like you're actually just a really stupid prick.
Except for the 100,000s of abortions performed every year. Perhaps we should the same brain vaccum during executions of adults too.
If you’re trying to kill someone, maybe it doesn’t matter, but the whole point of lethal injection is that it is supposed to be more humane than the electric chair or firing squad. Clearly it is not, so why pretend?
I would argue it's not 'clear' that it's less humane than the electric chair or firing squad. It *might* be, but I strongly suspect that, even with its associated problems, it's more humane than the electric chair, and likely more humane than firing squad, and certainly more humane than hanging*.
Progressive Washington State was a hangin' state up until 2018.
Indeed. Not that many people have been executed here in the last few decades. In the 90’s, the leftists even commuted the sentence of Blake
Pirtle, the Burger King killer.
NoVa. Don't lie.
There are many reasonable arguments against the death penalty. Pretending that lethal injection is horrific and cruel isn't a viable argument. It's a clear and transparent lie.
If it is, then I want you to charge every veterinarian in this country with a thousand counts of animal cruelty. Because animals are "put down" routinely, efficiently, and effectively by the tens of thousands daily via lethal injection. Lethal injection can and should be painless. The reason it is not is due to a series of attempts to back-door-ban the death penalty by contradictory regulations.
If you want to argue about the death penalty, there are many good ways to do so. Lying simply undermines our entire platform and hardens the opposition. After all, if you are right, why do you have to lie?
B-I-N-G-O
Beheading is probably painless but is not instant. The whole point of lifting up the beheaded head to the crowd (in olden times) was not really to show the crowd the head. It was to show the beheaded man himself that he was a)now beheaded and b)the crowd was cheering his imminent demise. Cognition and awareness and actual response (like opening eyes on name being spoken) may last for about 15 to 30 seconds.
Course I've only done this experiment on a few people. I will conclude it this Halloween with some neighborhood trick or treaters.
Some of the freaky evidence that consciousness may remain after beheading
I've always wondered about that. I mean, if our consciousness is entirely in the brain, and all you've done is cut off the systems of oxygen and bloodflow to the organ (brain) then why wouldn't you be conscious for a few seconds after the act?
Sufficiently traumatic head injuries almost invariably result in immediate loss of consciousness from the trauma itself. Beheading is probably one such sufficiently traumatic injury. People who have survived gunshot wounds to the head typically have no memory of the event or the accompanying pain when they recover.
I'm no doctor, but beheading is a significant, traumatic neck injury, leaving the brain intact. When one generally thinks of traumatic head injury, they (I) usually think of a direct impact to the skull which results in major trauma to the organ inside.
JFree. No. I know this is false.
Why? Because of how people react to a nitrogen atmosphere.
One breath and they are completely out. No exceptions. If simply removing the oxygen in the blood is that instant a knockout, how much more instant will removing all the blood from the brain be?
it's a good question. But I don't know if the oxygen from the brain is removed instantly. There is a quantity of blood left in the capillaries within the organ and it won't "pump" out because there's no heart in the severed segment to pump it out, like one has with arterial wounds.
Now, the blood is no longer 'moving' through the organ, so I don't know how quick the brain can do oxygen uptake from remaining blood when it's not moving (and admittedly draining).
Still a morbidly fascinating question.
That’s what I’m saying. We are WAY overthinking this method of execution thing.
When they finally get me, I’m going to opt for firing squad, complete with cigarette and blindfold. If that’s not available, my backup is being cast off the Tarpeian Rock.
Who wants to die looking like a pussy? I would demand a sword or a giant fucking ax. Something they have to clean up after.
I always liked the cigarette and blindfold thing, but then I’m a romantic. I could see how it might be a bit “European” for some tastes.
They used to do this, but Anti Death Penalty advocates have made it very difficult to get these exact drugs, and anesthesiologists don't tend to want to sign up for this duty.
https://youtu.be/rAlTOfl9F2w
Mr Krab has my opinion.
I hear there's enough fentanyl around to kill us all why not just use that?
Worked for George Floyd.
It wasn't botched. He's dead.
My reaction precisely.
^exactly.
wouldn’t a firing squad or the gallows be more humane? How did Big Pharma get the green light to use their poisons??
No good deed goes unpunished. They abandoned the constitutionally-established methods of hanging and shooting in favor of the more "humane" lethal injection option. Then death-penalty opponents encouraged pharmaceutical and medical boycotts of the procedure, and after making it difficult, claimed the result was inhumane executions.
It says this guy turned down other execution methods. Maybe he could have chosen hanging, who knows?
Also firing squads often have psychological consequences for the shooters. The Nazi death squads had high psychological casualties. That is why they invented the gas chambers.
The first "gas chamber" was used in 1803. They came into use in the US in the 1920's. Lithuania and the Soviet Union both used gas chambers before the Nazis were even a gleam in Hitler's eye.
The Nazi death squads were not all volunteers and they killed hundreds of people in a day, shooting women and children at point blank range.
I think that a squad of volunteers executing a man who raped a women in front of her husband and children and then killed them all would be psychologically different.
Call me crazy.
Legend has it that a 5-man firing squad would typically have one rifle loaded with a blank cartridge, with the quartermaster loading the rifles and then the squad commander distributing the rifles, so that the executioners would always have some level of ambiguity as to who delivered the fatal blow. I doubt that's true though. The Chicoms routinely plug dissidents and political prisoners in the back of the head with no discernible trace of Echospinner's psychological torment.
I believe in these cases, the executions are a product of preexisting psychological torment.
People have suffered ptsd from even one killing even accidental or in self defense.
Hey now! You’re going to summon that shitsack Holocaust denitrifying you go in like that.
What, we've run out of psychopaths? Let's put their talents to use for a change. They'll volunteer.
Hanging often does not go well.
The gun. Sure. How about with the stipulation that the judge or prosecutor pulls the trigger?
How about a stipulation that your arguments actually make logical sense and don't devolve into emotional pabulum?
You might as well as the sun not to shine or sarcasmic not to fuck his daughter.
Decapitation could be a bonus. Sell the quickenings to the highest bidder.
How did Big Pharma get the green light to use their poisons??
What you did there, I think I saw it.
Lethal injection is inherently dishonest. It attempts to pretend that killing someone is humane.
We should make drone bombing the official method in the USA. Have the condemned run around a large empty field as a predator drone hones in. If it is good enough for kids in other countries.
Why not go full Running Man and have them do a death race?
Squid game?
It's "home in" you stupid emoting fuck.
Well at least he got to taste his last meal twice.
Grant was convicted of killing prison cafeteria worker Gay Carter in 1998 while he was on work detail serving a 130-year sentence at Dick Conner Correctional Center in Hominy, Oklahoma.
Holy shit that is some obtuse gobbledigook. Fucking Reason.
So Carter was working the prison detail and Grant killed him? I'm sure Grant was otherwise innocent, just visiting the prison and decided to kill Carter, right? Or was Grant already serving a 130 yr. sentence and was *still* murdering people. I'm fairly orthogonal to libertarian thinking on the death penalty (apparently), but repeat offending, for murder, especially while still in custody seems to be a fence many libertarians are more than willing to hop off of.
Also, since we're using Grant as a bait-and-swi... I mean springboard, why not talk about the guy who went immediately before him: Grant’s execution was the first successful application of the death penalty in Oklahoma since January 2015 when Charles Warner was put to death. Warner was convicted in 2003 of the rape and murder of an 11-month old girl. More lenience for baby rapist/murderers! Letting them vomit as they die is just inhumanely disrepsectful!
I’m sure Tony would want statues erected in the man’s honor. As the man was a true hero of the left.
no state should have the power to execute.
Agreed
You are free to leave.
This country has chosen to admit there are actions humans can take that are so despicable that the only way society can express its contempt is to execute the offender.
14th amendment to the US Constitution: " . . . nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; . . . "
So WITH due process, the state can deprive you of life.
This "free to leave" thing.... We are also free to try and convince others that it is a power the state ought not have.
And BTW, increasingly the public tends to side with the Anti Capital Punishment side. At that point, do you want some one to tell you "Either accept it or leave?" or will you argue that trying to change the law back is an acceptable third choice?
Support for the DP (double penetration) has always held the majority, but has (for decades) been inching down. However, that's not static and it swings back up from time to time. For instance, support was at it's lowest point in 1970... then the 70s happened and support went way back up.
According to the latest data, it's ticking back up again. (as of 2018).
Interesting poll breakdown, they were very careful to not include Muslims in the polling data but they sure broke it down by "white" protestant, "white" catholic and evangelicals. I'll let the comments make of that what they will.
According to a poll I recently read, "DP" is enjoyed by 46% of females under the age of 30, but only 22% of females between 30 and 49, and 8% or females over the age of 50. Religion of the respondents of this poll was not specified. An "airtight" was liked by less than 5% of all age groups. I wish Diane had specified her preference.
It's just hard to find 3 people you like enough to make it airtight.
The public has also been increasingly Marxist. So?
No the “country” has decided nothing 23 states have no death penalty. The rest mostly rarely do. There were 17 executions here in 2020. This debate is not over.
You are free to leave. If you want that by far the highest number is China.
Did you think this was about “addressing contempt”? I have nothing but contempt for murderers. Does it give you closure to execute them? To trust our judicial system from what you saw on the news?
Well you pull the trigger.
Actually you retarded sack of shit, "the country" is represented by its national charter, called the Constitution of the United States. In that charter provision was made for the taking of life by the state after due process. The federal government is the government of "the country". That's a different government than the government of each state. I guess you must have slept through your 4th grade civics class the same way you did through the 4 years of medical school where you would have learned about basic pharmacology.
No problem! That's your only stipulation? Shit man, if you really oppose the death penalty don't make it easy and fun. Blowing the brains out of murderous pieces of shit is just my fucking game. If you get your way, hopefully you'll find that out some day.
I had another comment going, then I decided to delete it and give you the benefit of the doubt that you mean "execute" in a very specific and limited way.
They should replace lethal injection with a five person firing squad and have a raffle or just outright sell spots to qualified volunteers to be in the firing squad. That would solve the problem of "botched" executions and help to defay the cost of the death penalty.
How much would you pay for that raffle?
Depends on the prisoner and the crime they committed.
Not sure it would solve the “botched executions” problem, as I could see some cases where all bullets go to the genitals.
That should cause enough blood loss to kill relatively quickly.
My support of capital punishment is "equivocal". I think there are some crimes for which capital punishment is clearly appropriate and even needed. If it is to be used, a fail-safe method should be employed (I can suggest several relatively inexpensive ones that are as near foolproof as man's devices can be) and the execution should be completed after one pass of the case through the appeals system, and no later than one year after sentencing.
But the standard for guilt is evidence that convinces beyond a reasonable doubt, and I would have to persuaded beyond all doubt to vote to put someone to death, because it is irrevocable.
In addition, there should be a penalty - a severe penalty - for a prosecutor who plays any of the games that prosecutors are known to play "to win", for investigators that shade the truth, for technicians who in any way monkey with evidence, and for witnesses that purposefully lie. Twenty years without parole would likely be a suitable deterrent in any non-capital criminal case, but if it was determined that an innocent defendant was executed based on any of those bad actions, and I would absolutely support execution of the individual who played games, lied, or manufactured or planted evidence that led to the execution of an innocent person; those actions count as a crime against the defendant and against the state.
A last thought - the Eighth Amendment was not written as it stands to preclude all capital punishment (hanging and firing squads were very much accepted when the constitution was adopted), or even guarantee the process was neat, pleasant, quick, or painless. A good argument can be made that if it is to be used, it should engender some terror in those facing their end. It was to preclude the English punishment for treason which was the traitor was hanged, cut down while still alive, disemboweled, and then quartered between four horses - anybody who tries to sell you another explanation of "cruel and unusual punishment" is too dumb to know better, or thinks you are.
Well said, though cruel and unusual punishment was supposed to eliminate all forms of torture, not just drawing and quartering. This includes things like burning at the stake, starvation in hanging cages, and similar things that we would think so inhumane as to be unthinkable.
And I also agree the proven fallibility of the courts is and continues to be the best argument against the death penalty. They've messed up too often in the past, and so a punishment that's irreversible is unwise.
Imprisonment is irreversible. You never get your time back. Meaningful justice reform is needed with or without a death penalty. As has already been mentioned, that must include severe penalties for prosecutorial misconduct.
In practical terms, all sentences are irrevocable.
Of the roughly 2 million people in prison, practically none are released because evidence proved them innocent.
The difference is that in DP cases, the evidence is examined more carefully.
Why is this nation's "justice" system so dead set against NITROGEN ASPHYXIATION? It's 100% lethal and 100% painless. As the 0xygen in the sealed chamber is displaced with Nitrogen, the person simply slips into unconsciousness and is gone. No sensation of suffocation and no pain whatsoever.
Why do the so-called "respectable" members of society get off on seeing the condemned criminal suffer like this? Just proves that "respectable" society is nothing of the sort; just a bunch of heartless, self-righteous buttholes.
Oklahoma introduced nitrogen hypoxia as a method of execution 3 years ago. Oddly, all of the "MUH HUMANE EXECUTION!" blowhards didn't like that either.
Because the anti-death penalty activists want convicts receiving capital punishment to suffer as an argument against having the death penalty at all.
They never had these problems with firing squads.
So??
I have no problem executing murderers, especially those who murder children, those who commit multiple murders and those who murder while robbery....come to think of it I support the death penalty for all murderers.
Drive by shooter/ killers are always ripe for execution. People who rape children should also be executed. There's no going back for those types...they can't be saved.
There are probably a few more types that should executed but that's enough for one day.
So how many have you executed!
What a nonsensical response.
He said “I have no problem executing murderers” that is a direct quote.
OK how many has he executed on behalf of the state or is willing to execute?
Even then I have serious doubt that he would actually do it. What he means is he has no problem with someone else doing so.
I oppose giving the power of state sponsored execution. Some of you do not agree. This matter is far from settled and will continue to.
"What a nonsensical response."
It's echospinner.
Nonsensical or grossly misinformed is about all he can do.
While the execution clearly did not go as peacefully as intended, he died, and died quickly, so it hardly seems 'botched.'
But, apparently that was the assigned narrative and Shackford is nothing if not the dutiful stenographer.
The dude had a panic attack before the midazolam took effect. That is what happened. Note that we are not hearing exactly how long his display lasted. Norcuronium is a non-depolarizing paralytic. No way you can convulse once that takes effect. You simply go limp.
This isn't news it's agenda driven tripe.
Don't really care. Hanging would be just as good.
Both state and federal governments have generous supplies of heroin and fentanyl. If executions must proceed, why not use "hot shots" of those? We know they are quick, effective, about as painless as it gets and, since the stuff has been confiscated, free.