Illinois' Gerrymandered Congressional Map Is a Window Into America's Political Dysfunction
One of the big losers in the Illinois redistricting plan is Rep. Adam Kinzinger, a moderate Republican who voted to impeach Trump.

The proposed plan for redrawing Illinois' congressional districts is a total mess.
State lawmakers were tasked with the once-per-decade redistricting, and the Democrats who control the state government produced a map that is both wildly partisan and wildly gerrymandered. One proposed district is a sweeping crescent from the middle of the state west to the Mississippi River and then north to the Wisconsin border. Another is a jagged gash running from the Illinois suburbs of St. Louis nearly to the Indiana border, capturing a handful of the small, blue-leaning cities dotting the more rural part of the state. Parts of 10 different districts slice through Chicago and its suburbs
Overall, the map has been given a grade of "F" by the Princeton Gerrymandering Project, which grades congressional maps on partisan fairness, geographical compactness, and other factors.
Illinois update: this Dem 14D-3R gerrymander is both uglier *and* less effective than I'd have expected. #IL03 Newman: Biden +6#IL14 Underwood: Biden +8#IL17 OPEN (Bustos): Biden +6
All of these seats are potentially flippable in a good midterm for Rs. pic.twitter.com/toEaok7day
— Dave Wasserman (@Redistrict) October 15, 2021
Democrats in Illinois are concentrated in Chicago, its suburbs, and a handful of other places around the state. Drawing lots of thin tentacles—or "baconmanders" as they have been called—through Chicagoland maximizes Democrats' chances of winning 50 percent-plus-one in as many districts as possible. The Princeton Gerrymandering Project says the new map would give Democrats a statistical edge in 14 of the 17 proposed districts. Elections aren't won and lost on paper, of course, but that's a pretty nice edge considering the state's current congressional delegation is 13 Democrats and five Republicans (Illinois is losing one seat because people are fleeing the state).
The Illinois map should also put an end to the ridiculous claim that only Republicans engage in gerrymandering—a claim that's even been advanced by The New York Times recently. Republicans engaged in some of the most egregious gerrymandering during the 2011 redistricting process, but that was mostly a function of their outsized control of state capitals at the time. It's also true that Democratic gerrymanders are a bit harder to pull off since the party's current political coalition tends to be concentrated in cities and thus easy targets for "packing" into deep blue vote sinks. But, as Democrats demonstrated in Maryland in 2011 and Illinois this year, gerrymandering is definitely a bipartisan enterprise.
The flip side of gerrymandering as many winnable districts as possible for Democratic candidates, however, is that you have to pack as many Republican voters as possible into those three other districts. By cutting places like Bloomington, Champagne, Decatur, and Peoria out of their surrounding, redder areas, Democrats have created some serious vote sinks where Republicans make up more than 65 percent of the population.
Instead of a reddish-purple downstate, you've got that ragged blue scar and a bunch of districts where the Republican primary election will effectively decide who goes to Congress. And when primary elections have more significance than general elections, it gives more power to a party's base.
Obviously, Illinois Democrats have no obligation to draw districts that will help more moderate Republicans get elected. But that doesn't change the fact that these proposed districts will continue to push our federal politics towards the fringe. Gerrymandering not only reduces voters' connection to their elected officials and gives everyone another reason to roll their eyes at democracy. It also contributes to—and, circularly, is driven by—the hyperpartisanship that defines American politics right now. Efforts to "fix" redistricting are imperfect at best, but attempts to make the process even marginally more legitimate in the eyes of the public should be taken seriously.
These are not merely theoretical exercises. One of the big losers in the Illinois redistricting plan is Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R–Ill.), a moderate Republican who voted to impeach former President Donald Trump over his role in the January 6 riot. Kinzinger is already facing a pro-Trump primary challenger, and the former president has promised to support efforts to replace Republicans who voted for impeachment.
But the Democrats did Trump's work for him. Kinzinger's district, which currently covers a wide swath of the Chicago exurbs, would be demolished on the proposed new map. Now, Kinzinger will be forced into the new 3rd Congressional District along with incumbent Rep. Marie Newman (D–Ill.). To give you an idea of how extreme the proposed redrawing of Illinois' district lines is, consider this: Kinzinger's and Newman's districts didn't even share a border for the past 10 years. Now the two members of Congress share the same borders.
Newman isn't thrilled about the outcome. The new district, which stretches from the edge of Chicago and reaches halfway to the Iowa border, is "not only retrogressive but substantially diminishes the diverse and progressive voices of Chicago's Southwest Side and suburbs," she told Politico.
The proposed new district is 54 percent Democratic, according to the Princeton Gerrymandering Project, so it's not out of the question that a Republican could win it in a strong year. But Kinzinger is now facing political headwinds from every direction. In a statement, he said he's considering "all the options, including those outside the House," suggesting that he could retire or perhaps run for a different office.
Kinzinger is the type of Republican that's in short supply these days. But that's hardly enough to save him from the brutal reality of redistricting. In Illinois, at least, the redrawing of district lines is looking like a victory for Democrats, and an unexpected gift for the Trumpified Republican base.
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>>a moderate Republican who voted to impeach former President Donald Trump over his role in the January 6 riot
untruths abound.
Baby steps, he didn't call it an 'attack'.
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buh bye = Kinzinger
What? You mean the guy who looks like every quarterback who peaked in high school? What a great loss to the country...............
Interesting how everyone on left is moderate.
And when not moderate, they're passionate and committed to their ideas!
This is a classic example of just desserts.
Kinzinger dutifully accepted the demonrat premises, and dutifully voted to impeach, and what was his reward? Demonrats killed his district because he was no longer useful.
No "moderate" will ever get it.
No “moderate” will ever get it.
Yeah, they really don't. For all their criticisms of the "insurrectionist" wing of the GOP, they're too stubborn, too self-righteous, too arrogant, and too stupid to understand their own shortcomings and socio-political misinterpretations. On the left, they'll readily sell out
"Moderates" only thrive in relatively homogenous political and cultural environments (because deviant views will ultimately shatter the civic consensus), and we haven't had that since the early 1960s, give or take.
So basically before we had civil rights laws and rejected separate but equal, whites-only businesses, segregation in schools, and Jim Crow? Interesting dividing line you chose.
Sounds like Newman may no longer be useful either. She is a one issue candidate, abortion, abortion , abortion. The dems stabbed their own congressman, Lipinski, to install her. Previously they installed Lipinski, an out of stater into his father's seat when the old man died.
Or maybe he is honest. Instead of a lackey like every other R.
“Elections aren't won and lost on paper, of course…”
Shit, there’re not even won and lost with votes anymore.
They're won and lost with harvested, mail-in ballots!
That's technically paper, right?
So what? Gerrymandering is fair game under the current laws. If the Rs do it then the Ds should as well. The difference is that the Ds want to ban gerrymandering for all, and the Rs want to keep it.
Except for protecting racial gerrymandering.
Ds want to ban gerrymandering for all
My Side: Pure as the driven snow.
Your Side: Satan.
You keep believing that, Lady Chocolate.
They are trying to pass a federal law to ban gerrymandering and the Rs are blocking it. Is there another way to view it?
Can you DEFINE "gerrymandering"? Democrats will not.
Probably because it's actually an obvious power grab wearing a anti-gerrymandering skin suit. Come up with an actual, honest attempt and the other side might join in.
No actual rebuttal. Try again dipshit.
It's right there Tony, you illiterate fuck: "because it’s actually an obvious power grab wearing a anti-gerrymandering skin suit".
Do too many money shots to the eyeball cause dyslexia?
I was clearly saying that the bill doesn't actually address gerrymandering at all and in fact it does the opposite. I alluded to the fact it gives the Democrats permanent control of all redistricting using phony committees.
Any other party would be insane to support it.
Except the law doesn't ban gerrymandering, it puts it into commissions favorable to democrats to come up with.
The commissions are non partisan. The suggestion that a more non partisan approach will then favor the Democrats testifies to the partisan nature of current approaches. A real advantage of nonpartisan commission is that it would exclude having incumbents drawing their own districts. This is a part of the problem with the current system is that parties want a map that favors the party, but the incumbents want to preserve their districts, hence their job. Incumbents, no matter what party, should not feel too safe ever.
My word. You ARE delusional.
The difference is that the Ds want to ban gerrymandering for all, and the Rs want to keep it.
Are you really that naive, or do you just hope everybody else is?
They are trying to pass a federal law to ban gerrymandering and the Rs are blocking it.
The law doesn't ban gerrymandering. It puts it into committees favorable to dems. Try to read the laws you are arguing for.
No, it puts it in the hands of committees. Why do you think they are "favorable to Dems"? That part is pure opinion.
No they aren't, they're making a power grab while not actually doing anything about the issue. It's a typical Dem rhetorical trick, claim you're addressing the issue while actually doing the opposite.
For example their anti-racists are actually incredibly racist, and their anti-fascist paramilitary are essentially Brownshirts.
Considering the Ds claim they don't engage in gerrymandering its fairly obvious that how they define it to ban it will not preclude their own activities
Why do Ds only sue in states where the legislatures are red then?
Easy fixes:
1. Apportion your state's Congressional delegation in the House of Representatives based on a state wide vote. 55% Dem, 40% Repub, 5% Libertarian, divvy them up.
2. If you need geographical representation, require districts to be divided on county lines. If that leaves the population too unequal, allow counties to be split but only along state highways.
The proportional representation would be a fine way to go.
Democrats and their left wing media propagandists have been publicly accusing Republicans of unfair Gerrymandering for many decades.
But of course, Democrats have been Gerrymandering Congressional and state legislative districts far longer and more pervasive than Republicans.
Here in PA, the Democrat controlled Supreme Court (responding to a lawsuit by left wing Democrat activists) knowingly and intentionally violated PA's Constitution (which requires the State legislature to establish Congressional districts) by Gerrymandering PA's Congressional districts several years ago (giving Democrats four additional members of Congress).
"Kinzinger is the type of Republican that's in short supply these days."
Nothing like Reason praising Congressional Republicans who criticized and voted to impeach Trump, and then endorsed much of Joe Biden's disastrous policy agenda.
Boehm is shooting for one of those LA Press Club "podiums"
Or a job at NPR.
NPR throughout all of history:
"Oh look, praise Gaia! A moderate Republican who opposes the extremist agenda of his own party!"
*looks over at rabid left-wing Marxist*
"Passionate... committed to civil rights and social justice! Unwavering!"
Kinzinger (and Cheney, even more) vote against Biden's agenda items. Because, you know, they're Republicans. Just with more integrity than the Trumpkins. Or worse, the ones who know he's a disaster but support his "the election was stolen" bullshit just to retain their power and seat.
howard the Duckbsequels and Wuhan Bat Soup are in short supply as well
The PA congressional balance between Rs and Ds closely marches the percentage of votes that each side received. That is how it should be.
That isn't how it works. If the percentage of Democrats in a state was 49% but they were spread evenly across the entire state they'd lose every seat and you'd say that isn't right because they should have half the seats.
I don't see you complaining about the allocation in Massachusetts where 30% of voters went R but all 9 congressional seats are D. Maybe the state supreme court there should redraw the map to make it "how it should be".
I dunno. Seems racist.
You've got that backwards. A vocal Trump base is a gift for the Democrats.
Lol, okay wine mom.
Let’s not forget Maryland, which is massively gerrymandered for Democrats.
"But, as Democrats demonstrated in Maryland in 2011 and Illinois this year, gerrymandering is definitely a bipartisan enterprise."
The Illinois map should also put an end to the ridiculous claim that only Republicans engage in gerrymandering—a claim that's even been advanced by The New York Times recently.
Who are you and what have you done with... er... as you were.
Should read "a claim that’s OF COURSE been advanced by The New York Times recently."
"One of the big losers in the Illinois redistricting plan is Rep. Adam Kinzinger, a moderate Republican who voted to impeach Trump."
The Illinois redistricting plan is the only reason Rep. Adam Kinzinger's a big loser.
I'm no fan of gerrymandering, but good. Fuck that dishonest idiot and useful deep-state tool. I hope it hurts.
Also;
"Kinzinger is the type of Republican that's in short supply these days."
I sure as fuck hope so. I hope that all the Democrats like Kinzinger will be in short supply soon too.
It constantly amazes me how all the ostensibly libertarian Reasonistas, keep writing articles celebrating big-government neocon tools because orangemanbad.
*isn't
One of the big losers in the Illinois redistricting plan is Rep. Adam Kinzinger, a moderate Republican who voted to impeach Trump.
By the way, this happens again and again and again, and every time it happens, people seem perplexed by it.
I remember back in the 1990s a group of "moderate" Republicans who "opposed Newt Gingrich and the radical, terroristic 'Contract With America'" who lost their seats and couldn't figure out why.
The "Moderate" politicians who oppose their own party (yes, on bowf sidez) are always more vulnerable to being dislodged than their more committed counterparts.
Don't forget moderate Republicans who opposed Ronald Reagan (cough, John Anderson, cough)
Meanwhile AOC is busily trying to figure out how to redistrict the West Virginia and Arizona US Senate seats to get rid of Mancin and Sinema....
LOL! That was awesome!
A post on "but both parties do it" bad political behavior. Read the history. The Republicans failed to reapportion the House after the 1920 census to create 483 seats. Then the Republicans were able to pass the Reapportionment Act of 1929 and cap the size of the house at 435. That more than anything has caused the current gerrymandering to become an even more acute problem. Who cares? We all should. The current status quo is bad for any democratic community, state and of course nation. What is the solution? First we need more Representative districts. There is nothing in the Constitution that limits the size of the House of Representatives. If you need to have a bigger capitol, build one. Average district populations have increased to >700,000. Second, it may help to have those districts boundaries set in a way such that politicians cannot use voting records to slice and dice the population. Districts should be apportioned to yield the maximum level of political diversity. There should be no such thing as a safe seat.
And why "should" these things be like that? European parliamentary systems have "safe seats" built in. Safe seats associated with parties, rather than location, give groups representation who otherwise might be in the minority everywhere.
Gerrymandering probably isn't the best way of accomplishing those goals, but it's the one the US happens to be using.
The system you are proposing would amount to strict majoritarianism, which is quite undesirable.
With the Senate (and therefore the Electoral College) skewed in favor of small states, majoritarianism isn't going to happen. I'm not sure why the idea of people being represented by those who share their values is a bad thing. The tyranny of the minority is just as bad as the tyranny if the majority.
Apportioning districts to "yield the maximum level of political diversity" does not accomplish that since we have a winner takes all system. If you don't understand why, consider the extreme case where every district were representative of the country as a whole: a majority of 50.1% would take all seats, leaving the 49.9% unrepresented.
That's a false dichotomy. The alternative isn't which group of people tyrannizes which other group, the alternative is that government remain small and limited. However, in the current situation, Democrats are indeed the primary driver behind creating a tyrannical government.
"Apportioning districts to “yield the maximum level of political diversity” does not accomplish that since we have a winner takes all system"
Correct. So a candidate needs to appeal to a broader swath of issues because they have to appeal to ALL of their constituents rather than just one group. You know, actually represent their constituents.
"That’s a false dichotomy. The alternative isn’t which group of people tyrannizes which other group, the alternative is that government remain small and limited."
But it is, in the bloodsport version of politics we live with since at least 2009. Keeping government small and limited is the goal, but it also has to be "of the people, by the people, and for the people". The tyranny of the minority turns that promise on its head.
Also, small and limited can't also mean ineffective. A nation without an effective government will cease to be able to execute its basic functions of defense, infrastructure, and protecting rights just to name three.
That's the danger of blindly limiting government. If it is weakened too much it slips into anarchy. It needs to be cut back strategically and effectively so that it maintains its role, but is restricted from coercing moral or basic personal decisions (like vaccines).
The winner in the "totalitarian Olympics" these days are Republicans. They are the ones trying to force minority positions on people more than the Dems. But it isn't a blowout win for the Rs.
On the other hand, safe seats are good because they relieve citizens from the trouble of voting, a significant waste of time. When politicians choose the voters, only the small committed minority who studies politics and vote in primaries or caucuses matter. Ignorant voters can stay home and enjoy the fruits of the people who study politics.
Districts should be apportioned to yield the maximum level of political diversity. There should be no such thing as a safe seat.
Does anyone honestly believe that
The whole point of repealing the Reapportionment Act is to ensure that Teton County in Wyoming and college towns in red states aren't represented by a Republican, or that Illinois outside of Cook County isn't represented by a bunch of asshole Chicago Democrats. It's to provide people with someone who will actually represent them.
There wouldn't even be a debate over "balanced districts" if Oregon outside of Multnomah County, Eugene, and Corvallis had its own representative or representatives.
Should say, "Does anyone honestly believe that this is possible?"
Biden won Washington and Clackamas counties(Portland suburbs), Hood River county, Salem, Bend, Lincoln and Clapton counties(lotta hippies and CA retirees along the coast).
Basically Medford can be represented by a republican and maybe all the little shitholes east of Bend. Everyone else can move if they don’t like it.
*Clatsop county. I wish we had a county named for Slowhand
There is nothing in the Constitution that limits the size of the House of Representatives.
Well I agree with you on that. imo - 4000 critters is a good starting point - with hell 5 capital buildings geographically spread out and working virtually.
Technically, there is nothing in the constitution that requires single-member districts. For a long time, many states had 'general districts' though proportional representation could also work. Single-member districting was apparently stuffed into some 1967 legislation that was mainly about the Merchant Marine.
As someone who opposes cultural conservatives and the Democratic Socialists, I think that would be great. If we drop the constituents so we have 4350 representatives, the representation of the Jesus Junkies and the Squadiots would plummet. Plus the Electoral College would require 2226 to win, so the Presidency would weaken the extremes and result in more moderates in the White House.
Count me in!
There, FTFY
Either that, or he saw the writing on the wall about him getting redistricted a long time ago, and decided by running this angle, he could get a bigbux token conservative slot on MSNBC or CNN.
Or, perhaps, he thinks that Trump was actually guilty and voted that way. It's not like it hasn't been obvious for a while that the GOP is Trump's party. That's where the power is, so the smart choice, if you are just in it for yourself, is to stuck with Trump.
He may be a political opportunist, but he isn't that stupid.
If only there was a third party which could quickly automate redistricting in order to maximize compactness and election competitiveness. That could do so long before the DeRps are able to propose their final gerrymander plan - and provide those plans to the media first so that the DeRps couldn't also claim first-done advantage.
Course we don't even need to bother with gerrymandering problems. Those are caused by trying to predict elections and voter behavior. Random selection of critters can't be predicted.
And why are those desirable?
A consortium of tech companies could algorithmically carve up the political districts nation wide. Tuned of course by experts on their health and safety teams.
It is very easy to automate redistricting by computer. The point is not for those to be anything final. But for those proposals to be the first ones in the public discussion. So that those are the ones that the partisan/gerrymandered/smoke-filled room plans get judged against.
Otherwise - the partisan plans are judged against either - nothing or the other DeRp. Where DeRp matters far more than voter.
Election competitiveness? That is what maximizes the power of the individual voter and forces incumbents to represent their entire district rather than just their base.
Compactness - Is what maximizes the ability of challengers to challenge because it allows an alternative bottom-up way to campaign. Gerrymandered or spread out districts strongly require a top-down media-driven approach to campaign. Which requires a ton of donor money up front - including from outside district which enables corruption.
I seriously doubt that allocation of districts according to your formal geographic methods has any significant advantages. As I was saying, some stickiness and influence by state officials is actually advantageous. Within the current framework, all that really can and should be done is to eliminate some excesses, like limiting the perimeter of a district to five times that of a circle with equal area.
If we actually wanted better representation, we should do away with geographic districts altogether; they aren't needed anymore in the 21st century. Let people nominate candidates freely and from all the candidates with more than 1000 nominations, choose 500 representatives by lottery, or choose the top 500 candidates with the most nominations.
There are rational arguments for both compactness and competitiveness. However, optimizing both at the same time is probably impossible.
I agree. Redistricting doesn't have a 'solution'. Or maybe it has infinite. Those two objectives can conflict if people live in like-minded enclaves - but they raise governance issues that go way beyond DeRp partisan stuff.
Kinzinger's fate is just another example of what happens to "pragmatic" party animals. He sucked up to the Left and now he's being spitted and cooked.
"Remember when I said I was going to kill you last?"
"That's right! You did!"
"I lied" (opens hand)
"You...liiiiiiieeeddddd!" (splat)
"What'd you do with Kinzinger?"
"I let him go"
Please do Oregon next. We just got absolutely siloed.
Don’t like it. Move!
Or taking KARs moniker as advice, you could reduce your political opposition by killing them.
My name’s a joke. Rednecks suck, but I don’t want them to die.
Gerrymandering always has been bipartisan, and the Democrats have always engaged in it when they have had power. They have only become against it since they have lost control of most of the state legislatures. There injection to gerrymandering was never principled, it has been entirely pragmatic.
Seriously, does history start for Boehm somewhere after 2000? Democrat gerrymandering, for instance, was an issue in the '90s when the Georgla Democrats tried to redistrict Newt Gingrich out of his seat. Do some research, for God's sake.
Birdbrain Boehm couldn't find his ass with both his hands.
"(If it looks like Biden might not win) I will vote strategically and reluctantly for Biden." - Eric Boehm, Oct 12, 2020
They have only become against it since they have lost control of most of the state legislatures. There injection to gerrymandering was never principled, it has been entirely pragmatic.
Yeah, Colorado implemented a "fair redistricting" amendment at the behest of Democrats back when they were just beginning to take over the state houses. Now that they're completely in control of the state, they're regretting it because they could have gerrymandered everything around Denver and Pueblo the same way Oregon and Illinois do with Chicago and Portland.
Democrats are in no way against gerrymandering. They're only against Republicans doing it.
Have you formed your own position, or are you just looking to rationalize your support of Republicans?
You have no argument.
I am surprised Tony did not pull out his old, "you are initiating aggression if you do not allow the majority" in Illinois to do what they want.
An upside to this gerrymandering!
Illinoisan checking in.
First of all, it's spelled "Champaign". It even says so on the map.
Secondly, the proposed 13th and 15th districts are insane. I grew up near the intersection of I-70 and I-57 at the southern part of the 15th district. The thought that those people who have similar issues to those just living south of Rockford defies belief.
Trump had 95% support in his own party. The anti 5% were all elected assholes and consultants whose literal rice bowls were being pissed in by Trump. You would have thought they would have learned a lesson from Amash.
Trump had 95% support in what is remaining of his own party.
There FIFY.
what is remaining of his own party"
Obama 2012 - 65,915,795
Trump 2020 - 74,216,154
But don't worry, a 150 year trend miraculously reversed itself and the biggest voter increase in American history (suddenly, all at once at 4am) went to old Joe. The obviously senile guy that didn't campaign and hid in his basement.
Not Teddy Roosevelt, not FDR, not Nixon/Kennedy, and not for the Gipper, but for Joe fucking Biden.
But don't talk about it anywhere else or you're a dangerous conspiracy theorist and you'll be rightly deplatformed. Instead keep on not thinking and repeating CNN platitudes.
Because the US’s population doesn’t grow at all.
Biden 2020 – 81,282,916
And he was asleep and senile the whole time.
What does that have to do with Trump's base?
That's because Biden is just a puppet reading off a teleprompter. Biden's campaign was run by big tech and old media, and more than half of all Americans are dumb enough to let themselves be manipulated like that.
Thinking, despite EVERY SINGLE AUDIT DONE IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, that there was widespread, systemic, or even impactful voter fraud is the definition of believing a dangerous conspiracy theory.
Trump got beat because he was a terrible President and is a worse person.
People aren't alleging "voter fraud". They are alleging violation of laws and manipulation of ballots by election officials, as well as massive manipulation (contributions in kind) by big tech and legacy media. We know that those happened. We will never know whether they shifted the outcome.
People are having an anti-regime thought, they must be treated as terrorists! -- Nelson
People like you make me sick.
People are, absolutely, claiming voter fraud. First and foremost, the guy who lost the most recent free and fair Presidential election. As well as numerous grandstanding Republican sycophants, most of whom are rational enough to know (but not admit publicly) that the election was free and fair. Read Mother's Lament's post above.
Election officials didn't break laws or manipulate ballots. Hell, even those partisan idiots that tried to question Arizona's results couldn't find anything.
The "I'm just asking questions" or "we'll never know the truth" bullshit is just that. It's baseless, dangerous to the democratic process, and completely delusional.
I never have (and never will) claim anyone is a terrorist for speaking, regardless of how dangerous that speech is. I'm not one of those idiots that claim "silence is violence" or "deviant speech is terrorism" Even January 6th wasn't terrorism. It was violent, criminal, and unjustifiable, but not terrorism.
I'm at a loss to understand why seemingly rational people who claim to love America are willing to undermine the foundation of our nation because they don't like the fact that their guy lost.
People who sell out America and its values to avoid cognitive dissonance make me sick.
Really? Can you quote anybody Republican representative or Senator who has alleged that millions of people voted illegally?
The allegations of how the election was "stolen" are fraud and corruption by election officials, manipulation of votes and voting machines, and unfair and biased election procedures (financed by people like Zuckerberg and Soros). None of that is "voter fraud", it is "election fraud".
If you think that US election procedures are safe and accurate, you are delusional. They haven't been safe or accurate for decades.
The foundations of our nation have been undermined for decades, largely by people like you. People like you are reponsible for tolerating the crap we go through every election, from hanging chads to "emergency COVID voting procedures" in 2020.
Yes, you do indeed make me sick. Americans like you are turning this country into a shithole, and you didn't start doing this in 2020, you have been at it for decades. And there is no way back either: you sold out America long ago, literally: just look at the national debt and unfunded liability. Americans are ignorant and greedy: you are a prime example.
"Really? Can you quote anybody Republican representative or Senator who has alleged that millions of people voted illegally?"
I said voter fraud. And no significant voter fraud, which includes illegal voting, was found. Not in any of the way you listed, especially the completely false claim about voting machines. None of those "unfair" things were actually unfair, none of the baseless accusations against election officials were ever corroborated. Trump lost because more people in more states didn't want him to be President again. Period. Full stop. The election was free and fair.
As for who has said it, basically any member of the comservative wingnuts. Greene, Gaetz, Hawley, Jordan, Johnson, the list goes on. Most notably, of course, is the guy who got his ass kicked. On any given day, to anyone nearby, he will claim massive voter fraud. There wasn't.
"If you think that US election procedures are safe and accurate, you are delusional. They haven’t been safe or accurate for decades."
Yes, they are. While there have been irregularities found in every election since we started looking, they are limited to corrupt people doing corrupt things (like the guy in North Carolina (a Republican) who caused the House race to be run again. But outside of a thousandths-of-a-percent fraud rate in every election (I believe it was roughly 10,000 cases in the entire US on 2020), our elections are free and fair.
"The foundations of our nation have been undermined for decades, largely by people like you."
And who, exactly, are "people like me"? People who require evidence before crying foul? People who insist accusations are backed up by evidence? Hanging chads were literally the paper on a punch-card ballot that didn't detach completely, requiring humans to try to determine voter intent. Which of the "emergency Covid voting procedures" were fraudulent? Not which ones did you dislike, but which ones actually created fraud? The answer is none.
"Americans like you are turning this country into a shithole"
Who are "Americans like me"? The two examples you gave, the national debt and unfunded liabilities, are things that I vehemently oppose.
"Americans are ignorant and greedy: you are a prime example."
What is your evidence? I am an entrepreneur who has never relied on public assistance programs and don't have any kids so I'm the one subsidizing other people's children, not receiving the subsidy. I was also self-employed for a number of years as I got my business going, so again I paid more into the system (through paying both sides of FICA taxes) than the typical worker. What you are really trying to say is that you don't like the fact that I'm a moderate libertarian and a vehement opponent of providing privileges to religious people and organizations that aren't available to average citizens. I firmly believe in the rule of law and equality under the law, so the two-tiered system we have is offensive to me.
I'm sure you don't like hearing that cultural conservatives, who have to legally coerce people to accept their beliefs because they have lost in the marketplace of ideas, betray libertarianism. But that is the case. And it probably explains your hostility towards me and your unfounded accustions.
I like to suggest a look at Wisconsin where the Republican legislature is working desperately to retain their maps now that the Governor is a Democrat with veto power. Rather than working on consensus maps the legislative leader are scrambling to get control of the process. This even though fair maps drawn by a citizen board appointed by the Governor would likely leave the Republican in control. Just not as much control as they now have.
Well, that's one interpretation of what's happening... It's dishonest as fuck, but it's definitely an interpretation.
Care to explain what you think is really happening in Wisconsin?
The same thing that's usually happening: two parties playing an adversarial game over political power. "Consensus" and "fairness" are not a part of that, not for Democrats and not for Republicans.
The question here is not the parties but rather the voters and their ability to be represented. States like Wisconsin have seen that partisan gerrymandering does little to promote representative government. Moving to a nonpartisan commission with transparency is a move to correcting the problem. Having parties and have incumbents draw maps has shown to be a recipe for stripping voters of their choice in representation. Politician selecting their voters does not work. Democrats and Republican will try to game the system and so we need a third way to redistrict, not just acceptance of the current situation.
Making each district representative of the population in the area ensures that 49% of the population aren't represented by the 51% of the population that elect the representative using the winner-take-all system.
The redistricting you propose makes the situation worse, not better. If you want representations for different views, even partisan gerrymandering is preferable to the "representative" redistricting" you favor.
The real solution, however, is to do away with geographic districts altogether and simply give people a choice in who represents them. That way, minorities can put their weight behind a candidate and at least have a seat at the table.
You think that having all Representatives be statewide or at-large positions *increases* the power of minority political groups? You'll have to explain that logic.
He is about as moderate as I am a 747 aviator. I have 9 hours flight time. KRAPZINGER is a RINO J.O., typical illi-noise elected RAT! democrps should be careful, getting rid one of their own?
So we have the argument that Democrats gerrymandered one state, and that therefore "See, Democrats do it too!"
I look forward to browsing the Reason archives for all the stories on Republican gerrymandering.
Because when they do it, pointing out that they do it is accurate.
When they had the opportunity, they engaged in behavior that they claimed was reprehensible. That is hypocrisy. This article isn't about gerrymandering - it's about hypocrisy.
Everyone's a hypocrite, and everyone has to play the hand they're dealt.
Only one party is trying to permanently install minority rule in America despite having awful ideas about everything, so why do you care about the thing that doesn't matter?
"Only one party is trying to permanently install minority rule in America despite having awful ideas about everything, so why do you care about the thing that doesn’t matter?"
Democrats promoting Critical Race Theory? Seems accurate.
Either way, to hell with you justifying their blatant hypocrisy.
So, do you consider Mitch McConnell a hypocrite?
Yes, the Democrats really are the worst, aren't they.
So they're creating a lot of 52-percent blue districts, and lumping Republicans into a few deep red districts. Given another year of "Let's go Brandon," that could really backfire.
If Independents (remember them) vote heavily Republican, and if even some Democrats decide they've had enough "blue," a lot of those barely-blue districts could get flipped.
It's going to be difficult to blame a red wave on voter suppression in Illinois and Massachusetts.
So exactly what Republicans have been doing in every state that's not Illinois or Maryland for decades now. That's how it shakes out with gerrymandering. You concentrate as many opposing voters in one district as you can to make other districts more competitive.
Every state? Care to provide proof of this claim? Get going Tony, all 48 of them.
Oh, but that is not what Democrats have been using gerrymandering for. Democrats over the last few decades have been using gerrymandering to prevent minority (black, Hispanic) candidates from winning elections, ensuring that white Democrats would get elected.
Any evidence of such an extreme accusation? Or is it more "I'm just askkng questions"?
Ted Cruz has talked about it at length in recent interviews; you can check there.
I don't see why this would come as a surprise to you either. Democrats managed to gain minority support starting in the 1930s despite being overtly racist and segregationist at the time. For nearly a century, their approach was to get minorities to vote for them but to keep them out of power. (Now, obviously, their approach has changed, though it's still racist.)
Ted Cruz is a power-seekong jackass that will say whatever he thinks will give him more power. If you're using him as "proof", you are using an untrustworthy source.
Again, you describe what you believe Democrats have done, but don't actually cite any evidence. The fact that, 65-70 years ago, the Democratic party was full of overt racists who tried to keep blacks powerless is often cited by conservatives without acknowledging that when they started fighting for civil rights instead of against it, the Dixiecrats mostly fled to the Republican party. And that type of issue profile has remained with the conservative party (Republicans) ever since. So can you document this Democratic conspiracy you laud out or is it just more hot air and Q-level nonsense.
nice blog
The solution is to break up all the states down to the county level.
This would reduce the gerrymandering to tiny areas within each of the new much smaller states. The state of illinois has 102 counties, so there would be 102 new states.
True, but the populations of each county are so different that wouldn't work. Each Representative has to represent roughly the same number of constituents.
The problem, as this whole comment section shows, is that everyone likes it when their side gerrymanders and everyone hates it when the other side does it. That should be the biggest red flag that it is a bad thing.
Maximizing competitiveness in districts forces candidates to listen and respond to their constituents. And increases the chances that it will swing back and forth, which also pressures representatives to follow the will of the people, not the will of the special interests.
If even 50% of the seats in the House were competitive, the wingnuts would be neutered. Regardless of whether your politics leads you to hate AOC or Jim Jordan, you have to admit decreasing their power is a good thing. And maybe we will end up with more Manchins and Cheneys than ethically and morally bankrupt safe-seaters who can ignore sizable portions of their constituents.
I don't mind gerrymandering, just like I don't mind voting or free speech. I do mind it when these instruments are used to promote socialism, but that doesn't mean I want to outlaw them.
What would force candidates to listen and respond to their constituents even more would be to break the tie between geography and representation altogether. If I'm a libertarian, no elected Democrat, Republican, or Libertarian candidate is going to listen to me anyway. See above for some ideas for how to fix that.
If districts are packed and cracked to create lopsided results, libertarians (roughly 2-4%, depending on location) will never have any influence. But if the district is within the margin of error, libertarian concerns suddenly become very important to the candidates.
Look at the outsized influence 2 Democratic senators have. Now imagine that all over the country. How is that bad?
That's the situation you want to create: a situation where every district has a "representative" population and hence where the majority takes most of the votes due to WTA. Gerrymandering, on the other hand, tends to create many safe districts for the majority party but also a small number of real toss-ups.
If you are going to have WTA and geographically based districts, gerrymandering probably leads to more diversity in representation than trying to create "representative" districts.
I have yet to see any Democrat take libertarian concerns very seriously.
Same way it was bad when a couple of Republican senators managed to stop the repeal of the ACA, largely out of spite and self-aggrandizement.
"a situation where every district has a “representative” population and hence where the majority takes most of the votes due to WTA."
No, I'm looking to make sure that as few districts as possible can be won by a "phone it in" candidate who basically says "the other guy is an R (or a D) and can win. Districts that are within the margin of error would require candidates to make public promises and explain policy positions, since losing 1-2% can cost the election. A safe seat is a bought-and-paid-for seat for special interests because the representative doesn't have to answer to their voters. They could lose 15% of them and still win.
Democrats are closer to libertarian principles on personal freedom issues than Republicans because cultural conservatives can see the writing in the wall. American culture is moving away from their beliefs and the only way to prevent that is to coerce people to behave like conservatives.
And no one in forever has stood up for balanced budgets and honest pay-fors, so neither party is fiscally libertarian.
Finally, Republicans favor republicanism (small r) more than Dems, which is a plus in their column. But they largely support it so that they can have some safe spaces to pass coercive laws like SB8 or carve out more exceptional privileges for established religions that normal citizens can't access. Not libertarian in the least.
No one wants to shrink government. There's too much power to be had and favors to hand out. So anything that makes party-line rule possible (like gerrymandering) is bad and anything that weakens the monolithic power of the parties in Washington (like competitive districts) is good.
"Same way it was bad when a couple of Republican senators managed to stop the repeal of the ACA,"
You make my point. The repeal of the ACA was unpopular in Arizona, so their Senator voted that way. But the larger problem was that it got passed in the first place, correct? Would that have happened if 50-60% of Congress had to worry about minority concerns? If 3% of angry independents would stop supporting the rep in a contested district, would such extreme legislation have ever passed?
The cowards on the Supreme court have had many cases and could have fixed gerrymandering, but so far have refused to do so and sent the cases back to the lower courts, that the justices are quite divided politically instead of considering the lawfulness of gerrymandering.
It's not the job of SCOTUS to "fix gerrymandering". That's not cowardice, it's a minimal understanding of their constitutional function.
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