The CDC Has Confused Everybody. Again.

Plus: DOJ seizes cuneiform tablet from Hobby Lobby, teen hiring slows and adult hiring rises in states that ended federal unemployment benefits, and more...

Mask mandates aren't quite back, but we appear to be headed in that direction. Yesterday, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) issued renewed guidance that even vaccinated people should be masking up indoors, if they live in areas "of substantial or high transmission." The CDC also says that vaccinated people exposed to someone with the coronavirus should be tested and quarantine. And it recommends "universal indoor masking for all teachers, staff, students, and visitors to K-12 schools, regardless of vaccination status."

The updated guidance was issued over concerns that the delta variant of COVID-19 may be spread by vaccinated people. The science on this is still out.

Even folks who have heretofore been amenable to most CDC guidance seem a bit baffled by the latest update.

"For most of the pandemic, the CDC's guidance has felt reasonable," writes Oliver Darcy in CNN's Reliable Sources newsletter:

It made sense to wear masks when vaccines weren't available and the public had no other ability to protect itself … But we are in a very different situation now with some swaths of the country hitting high rates of vaccination, and others with dismally low rates. The disparity in vaccination rates means that a positive case in a state like New York is far different than a positive case in a state like Louisiana. The CDC's own hospitalization data bears this out: Louisiana is seeing a spike in hospitalizations while New York is not. And yet, the CDC's latest guidance treats parts of New York exactly the same way it treats Louisiana. It doesn't make much sense…

Policies like this should be challenged and tested. Gov't officials should face reasonable questions about the guidance they are issuing. An easy one: Why isn't the CDC basing its recommendations on hospitalization rates versus case counts? Another: How did the CDC determine that 50 new cases per 100,000 amounts to 'substantial' transmission?

Overall, application of the new guidance seems unlikely to jibe with actual threat levels, as areas with high vaccination rates—which also tend to be largely liberal areas—are most likely to impose new rules, despite low hospitalization rates, and the people most likely to follow the CDC's new guidance seem to be those least likely to benefit from it.

The New York Times called the latest CDC guidance "a confusing message," with David Leonhardt writing that "the C.D.C. has both a polarization problem and a communication problem."

High transmission is occurring in places where people have been most resistant to vaccination and mask wearing already. "Who, then, is most likely to listen to the C.D.C.'s new request that vaccinated people wear masks indoors?" asks Leonhardt. "People who live in the places where it will do the least good."

But so long as this stays in the realm of guidance, not mandates, maybe that's OK.

"50/50 masked/unmasked at a Whole Foods in Manhattan tonight. Seems right," tweeted CNN's Brian Stelter. "Give people the most up to date info, then let them make their own risk assessments. This is all about risk tolerance."

Indeed, "to suggest that Covid-19 is an escalating emergency in the United States is not quite right," writes Aaron E. Carroll, chief health officer for Indiana University. "The truth is that the vaccinated and the unvaccinated are experiencing two very different pandemics right now. If we don't confront that, the nation can't address either appropriately."

That's where the CDC guidance truly fails.

"CDC messaging is astonishingly bad here," suggests cardiologist and CNN medical analyst Jonathan Reiner. "Instead of clearly articulating the problem which is 80 million adults have chosen not to get vaccinated and they are largely also unmasked, CDC suggests that the problem is rare transmission from vaxed to unvaxed people. This is so wrong."

Meanwhile, the U.K. reports some encouraging news about delta variant transmission:

JPMORGAN: UK COVID cases "have more than halved in ten days. What explains this dramatic reversal? .. We are not the only people struggling to explain.. it is hard to argue against the idea that the current Delta wave .. is turning out to be much, much milder than we anticipated" pic.twitter.com/CocX4FWcpw

— Carl Quintanilla (@carlquintanilla) July 28, 2021

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FREE MINDS

The Justice Department seized a rare cuneiform tablet from Hobby Lobby:

Inbox: DOJ seizes the Epic of Gilgamesh from Hobby Lobby pic.twitter.com/kUEDCBcnv4

— Matt Ford (@fordm) July 27, 2021

---

FREE MARKETS

Teen hiring slows, adult hiring rises in states that ended federal unemployment benefits. "The 20 Republican-led states that reduced unemployment benefits in June did not see an immediate spike in overall hiring, but early evidence suggests something did change: The teen hiring boom slowed in those states, and workers 25 and older returned to work more quickly," reports The Washington Post. More:

A new analysis by payroll processor Gusto, provided to The Washington Post, found that small restaurants and hospitality businesses in states such as Missouri, which ended the extra unemployment benefits early, saw a jump in hiring of workers over age 25. The uptick in hiring of older workers was roughly offset by the slower hiring of teens in these states. In contrast, restaurants and hospitality businesses in states such as Kansas, where the full benefits remain, have been hiring a lot more teenagers who are less experienced and less likely to qualify for unemployment aid.

---

QUICK HITS

Don't look now but New York is closing in on one of its lowest July homicide rates on record. pic.twitter.com/u87UUbvhyj

— Joel Wertheimer (@Wertwhile) July 27, 2021

• How drug warriors made the opioid epidemic deadlier.

• A New Jersey town has dropped its obscenity case against a woman who had "fuck Biden" signs in her front yard.

VICTORY! The court dismissed charges for our client who was criminalized for displaying "Fuck Biden" signs outside her home.

The town asked the court to dismiss the case and accepted what we've been saying all along: it's your right to express dissent, even with strong language. pic.twitter.com/MW47Og7DgU

— ACLU of New Jersey (@ACLUNJ) July 27, 2021

• In Afghanistan, "what could've been a promising end to another bloody theater of U.S. involvement in the Middle East is actually an anticlimactic maintenance of the status quo," writes Reason's Fiona Harrigan.

• The latest on vaccine mandates: Biden is considering a vaccine mandate or regular mandatory testing for federal employees. New York City and California will require them (or weekly testing) of government employees. Meanwhile, in the private sector, The Washington Post has instituted a vaccine mandate:

https://twitter.com/mffisher/status/1420085016902737923

• California residents expected to vote in the state's September recall election are divided on whether Democratic Gov. Gavin Newsom should be removed from office.

• Reason's Stephanie Slade has more on 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis, in which "a divided three-judge panel found that designing a custom wedding website is 'pure speech.'"

• Walmart is expanding its free college tuition program for employees.

Comments

[Fist of Etiquette]

Mask mandates aren't quite back, but we appear to be headed in that direction.

IT WON'T MASK THE CDC'S INCOMPETENCE.

[Chumby]

They can no longer maskerade as competent.

[Daisy Tate]

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[Overt]

I just spent the last hour scrolling through Twitter watching all the liberals smug-out about how ANTI-SCIENCE the right is.

If you disagree with the CDC, you are obviously anti-science.

[Sevo]

Taking one for the team?

[JesseAz]

Penance from the church of fauci.

[Overt]

There are some people on the left that I tended to like reading back in the day, and I found myself scrolling through their feeds. It was just amazing to me how they take up these abstract calls about anti-vaxers and anti-science stuff. And they say it is because the religious right/trumpism/etc has taken over their brains. They don't realize that when many people say they don't "trust science" it is because Liberals claim that the nonsense CDC guidance is "science".

[Nardz]

Confession via projection.
The left are dimwitted lemmings who resent anybody unlike them and seek vicarious control, through Daddy Gov, of everyone else to boost their own ego.
They reflexive, fanatical cultists prisoner to pronouncements of the moment.

[ADL]

Correct, the typical leftist is a complete loser in nearly every facet of life. Rather than channel their anger productively to improve their own lives, they project it externally and try to control others via social justice or some other kind of BS, while virtue signaling the entire time. They are weak, craven, evil, disgusting people.

[JesseAz]

The irony is that those who question the vaccines or climate change perform better on basic tests of fact than those who blindly accept.

[NoVaNick]

But science is based on mathematics and logic, which are RACIST! So if you science, you must be racist

[NoVaNick]

I use science as a verb here bc that’s what the sciencists do

[MachineGunBodine]

That's how I knew you were a sciencer.

[Earth Skeptic]

But which day, which CDC spokes-model, and which statements are the most sciency?

[JesseAz]

Irony from CDC yesterday...

The First
@TheFirstonTV
CDC Director on mask mandates for children:

CNN: "The Delta variant isn't making kids any sicker is it?"

CDC Director: “We don’t have any evidence.”

[Earth Skeptic]

No "evidence"? Then a media expert asking the question is proof enough.

[mad.casual]

If you disagree with the CDC, you are obviously anti-science.

The FDA says the vaccines are safe, abundant, and effective. If you're pro-CDC/anti-FDA, you're anti-science, if you're pro-FDA/anti-CDC, you're anti-science, if you're anti-FDA/anti-CDC, you're anti-science.

Since the party of science has ruled out pretty much everyone including two of the most "pro-science" of their own federal departments, I'd like to welcome everyone to the Republican party.

[Earth Skeptic]

Angels on the head of a pin.

[Mick 2]

You have to be smarter than the virus.

What is so complicated about getting a vaccine and wearing a mask? The mask abates the spread of the virus, plain and simple. It stops the asymptomatic from unintentionally infecting others. It protects those too young to be vaccinated. It protects the vaccinated from contracting a 'milder case.' Wear a mask, protect yourself, protect others, starve the virus out of a host to survive or mutate in.

The increase in coronavirus cases is evidenced by the increase in hospitalizations. It is not difficult to connect the dots. Wear a mask in crowded conditions with people you don't know whether or not you are vaccinated. Until this abates and 70% of the population is vaccinated, the virus will NOT die out. Don't condemn the world to lifetimes of trying to beat the next mutation because too many are too foolish to wear a mask.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Actually nothing you wrote is supported by science. Try again.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

You're flat-out insane if you think we're going to have a COVID-zero world. This isn't like smallpox, it's more like the flu where they'll tell us that we'll need to get boosters every few months and hope for the best.

Just watch what happens when Australia, Canada, and New Zealand actually open their borders again.

[Fist of Etiquette]

The CDC also says that vaccinated people exposed to someone with the coronavirus should be tested and quarantine.

So if you were hesitant about the vaccine, this should seal the deal.

[Eeyore]

Unless you want to keep your job at the Washington Post.

[Ron]

in other words we are locking people up for any reason we can find

[mad.casual]

Any reason we could find was 16 mos./2 weeks ago. At this point, they aren't even really making up reasons.

Pretty safe at this point to say that America has fallen to on par with Democratic Socialist Europe.

[Nardz]

Well, the appearance of "democratic"

[Earth Skeptic]

Your betters will tell you what is democratic.

[mad.casual]

"D"emocratic, not "d"emocratic. Just like the "P"eople's "R"epublic of China or "D"emocratic "P"eople's "R"epublic of North Korea. Less "Government of, for, and by the people." and more "We like the title because it makes the plebes feel like we listen or care."

[Nardz]

True.

Pretense would've been a better term for me to use than appearance

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Most secure Democratic in History.

[Sometimes a Great Notion]

The War on Germs has it's casualties.

[JesseAz]

Now now. Vaccone hesitancy is all Republicans fault.

[Mick 2]

If I KNEW I was exposed, I would get tested if I felt ill. If you test positive, wouldn't you quarantine? Or would you go out maskless and try to infect as many friends, family and complete strangers as you could?

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Seriously fuck off slaver.

[Fist of Etiquette]

For most of the pandemic, the CDC's guidance has felt reasonable...

Well, at least we know with some people there actually is one too many a straw for that camel's back.

[Fist of Etiquette]

HOLY SHIT REMEMBER WHEN WE WERE ALL ON ABOUT PLASTIC STRAWS?

[Don't look at me!]

Dark days indeed.

[Chumby]

A marine biologist pulled a plastic straw from a sea turtle’s nose…

[Union of Concerned Socks]

...and Covid was born.

[Earth Skeptic]

Fake news! All the turtles are dead.

[Fat Mike's Drug Habit]

I have it on good authority that it's just turtles all the way down though.

[JesseAz]

Now it is plastic straws all the way down.

[The Encogitationer]

A Swami, by chance?

[soldiermedic76]

No, it's just one giant turtle with four elephants on it's back and a disc shaped world on their back.

[Chumby]

Then each would be a shell of their former selves.

[mad.casual]

*sips drink*

No.

[I, Woodchipper]

If you look to the CDC for "guidance" you're already helpless and lost.

[Mick 2]

Employ your common sense and just do what you did before. Mask up until this thing dies out. It's not dead yet. Don't help it survive.
People didn't perpetuate polio and got a vaccine. Can't see why this is any different.

[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

"Mask mandates aren't quite back, but we appear to be headed in that direction."

Good. As a left-libertarian, I encourage the government to fight the pandemic using just about any method — mask mandates, lockdowns, etc. In fact the only thing I wouldn't tolerate is asking immigrants at the border if they've been vaccinated or tested positive.

#OpenBorders
#(EspeciallyDuringAPandemic)

[Fist of Etiquette]

If anything deserves a state knee on a citizen neck, it's the COVID.

[creech]

You forgot to tell us how much Charles Koch made or lost yesterday.

[Fist of Etiquette]

The truth is that the vaccinated and the unvaccinated are experiencing two very different pandemics right now.

Which pandemic is the previously infected experiencing? Interesting that no one wants to research or disclose that.

[Don't look at me!]

All those people are dead. Some of them died several times!

[Idaho Bob]

Biden voters?

[CE]

Why do you think the NY homicide rate is so low?
Cuomo beat them to it.

[Derp-o-Matic 6000]

The country is averaging fewer than 300 deaths for nearly two months, yet the push to implement tighter restrictions has really increased in the past week or so.

Seems fishy to me...

[Eeyore]

Wait until Monkey Pox!

[The Encogitationer]

"Here's a little song that I wrote.
You might want to sing it note for note:
Don't Worry! Think 'Monkey Pox!'"

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Cases.

*drops microphone*

[Mick 2]

The majority of the previously infected RAN, not walked, to get inoculated as soon as they could. They are experiencing fear of getting the virus AGAIN and not making it through the second time.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

The polio vaccine prevents people from getting polio. The diptheria vaccine prevents people from getting diptheria. The mrna covid shots are not vaccines and do not prevent people from getting covid. They purportedly prevent it from killing you. You are really making an ass of yourself.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Inbox: DOJ seizes the Epic of Gilgamesh from Hobby Lobby

The Smurfs can breathe easy.

[Ben of Houston]

Hobby Lobby was attempting to start their own museum and they were scammed into purchasing stolen goods. They are one of the victims here.

What I want to know is what punishment the auction house is going to receive for not vetting goods that they are selling.

[Ragnarredbeard]

They'll get sued into insolvency by Hobby Lobby.

[Ron]

my question is did the FBI ask hobby lobby to return the object or did they dramatically seize if for political purposes to make a company run by people with a religious belief look bad.

[The Encogitationer]

Does any government agency ask anybody to do anything without an implicit threat of force? (In this case, quite rightly.)

Hobby Lobby is a corporation of big-pants people. They can do bad all by themselves and evidently did.

[R Mac]

They did something bad by buying something at an auction? Your bigotry is showing again.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

My guess is they seized it. Remuneration for the fraudulent sale will probably be Hobby Lobby's problem.

The fact that Hobby Lobby wasn't charged with a crime is your indication that the DOJ agreed or understood that Hobby Lobby was duped.

[CE]

But the news stories can still make Hobby Lobby sound bad, so let's run with that.

[Mick 2]

In cases of possession of stolen property, the goods are generally forfeit. As for looking bad, it has nothing to do with religion - if atheists were caught with stolen artifacts, they would be looked upon with scorn as thieves too. It has to do with a criminal mindset that says "We won't get caught." I'm just glad they got caught and I don't give a damn about their religious beliefs.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

If you clicked the link you would know that the auction house defrauded Hobby lobby. They are not accused of any crime. Again you've made an ass of yourself.

[Earth Skeptic]

Museum closed Sundays.

[The Encogitationer]

I hope the punishment is the same in both instances. I wouldn't be surprised if this is an attempt to supress a flood legend that pre-dated the writing of The Torah and The Holy Bible and which was a source along with three previous flood legends.

[Nardz]

We get it, you're an Atheist.
You don't have to signal it at every opportunity

[The Encogitationer]

Just doing a hollah-back to make up for 2000+ years of holy hollah-ing.

[R Mac]

You should read it. It’s interesting.

[CE]

Rising sea levels are a symptom of global warming. Any previous stories of rising sea levels must be mythical.

[The Encogitationer]

Any rising sea levels are regional and to me just means the polar bears need to stop drinking Cola-Colas and tighten up on their backstroke if they want a niche.

Everything else on the subject is moonshine. It would be revealed in layers of sediment if there was any evidence of a Great Flood.

[CE]

Stolen? Or just deemed "culturally important" to the Sumerians?
How many stolen goods are purchased at a public auction house?

[Mick 2]

Skip the auction house: go straight to EBay.

WHICH is why it is important to celebrate foilling larceny, and the arrest and punishment of thieves and thieving brokers in stolen property.

[The Encogitationer]

No, no. That's Gargamel you're thinking about. 🙂

[JesseAz]

Thanks for explaining the joke. Said nobody.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

Funny; here's a trivia question for you:

How do Smurfs reproduce?

They smuck.

[Chumby]

One female smurf and a lot of male smurfs. Explains all the blue balls.

[MachineGunBodine]

It is reported that the plaque said, "Live, Love, Pray".

[Fist of Etiquette]

How drug warriors made the opioid epidemic deadlier.

War profiteers need wars.

[Earth Skeptic]

1. Invent a crisis and scare people.
2. Get funding and build a bureaucracy.
3. Profit.

[CE]

The same way alcohol warriors made the alcohol epidemic deadlier?

[Mick 2]

Said Cheney as he sips Dalmore 35 Year Single Malt Scotch from a fine Irish crystal double old fashioned glass. "I'd like to thank Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and the entire middle east for my personal fortune..."

[Fist of Etiquette]

The town asked the court to dismiss the case and accepted what we've been saying all along: it's your right to express dissent, even with strong language.

Kind of seems like they should know this before even starting proceedings.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

Following the Australians apparently.

[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

#NeverTrump #Resistance neocon Max Boot makes a brilliant point.

Words I never thought I’d write: Saudi Arabia is being more progressive than America. Saudis will need to show proof of vaxx to enter schools, shops, malls, restaurants, concerts, public transport.

How severely did the GOP need to mess up to lose intellectuals like Boot and Kristol and Frum to the Democrats?

#LibertariansForEmbracingNeocons

[JesseAz]

Follows closely with Chippers observations.

Chipper Morning Wood--------------------------------------------------------------------------
May.26.2021 at 6:29 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
Libertarians have more in common with Marxism than with modern conservatism. It’s sad that it’s come to that, but here we are.

[Earth Skeptic]

But what about Saudi borders??!!!

[Jerryskids]

I've always wondered what progressives were progressing toward, and now we know.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Biden is considering a vaccine mandate or regular mandatory testing for federal employees.

Keep Texas dems away and you'll be fine.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Washington Post publisher Fred Ryan announces new vaccination policy "is to require all Washington Post employees to demonstrate proof of full COVID-19 vaccination as a condition of employment."

WaPo staffer health autonomy dies in darkness.

[Derp-o-Matic 6000]

Wasn't that retard Jeff complaining just yesterday that no employers are requiring vaccination?

[Overt]

To be fair, he was saying that the Government is not FORCING employers to mandate vaccinations- because that is what someone on your side of the aisle claimed.

[JesseAz]

To be fair I showed him an example of California stating they will force private medical workers to be vaccinated.

[JesseAz]

Also jeff is fully aware that government can coerce private industry through threats which he fully ignores.

[JesseAz]

An example from CNN.

Washington Examiner
@dcexaminer
CDC Director Rochelle Walensky says European-style "health passes" for admission to nightclubs and other venues "may very well be a path forward."

https://mobile.twitter.com/dcexaminer/status/1420425829469892617

[Chumby]

The uncool crowd that never got invited to anyplace fun is now unleashing their pent up bitterness.

[MT-Man]

Don't worry Don Nico will come along with some bs about CFR and it's percentage over the course of 1 day to make it seem like it's the true chance at dying from COVID.

[Earth Skeptic]

Shit, is it my body or not?

[Quo Usque Tandem]

Well that depends; abortion, absolutely. To carry a gun or get vaccinated, well let's see whether you "need" it or absolutely have to have it. For the greater good and all.

[Nardz]

"No."
-the left

[Chumby]

When a Republican is in office, yes.

[Jerryskids]

I'm pretty sure that mandate is only for white guys, though. The Post wouldn't dare demand that minorities do a damn thing. Look at how they treated Janet Cooke if you need a refresher course.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

It's those fucking irredeemable basket of deplorables they are after. And those are invariably white guys who live in flyover country and tell their wives how to vote.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Are there any non-whites working at the WaPo?

[Rev. Arthur L. Kuckland]

That depends on if jews and Asians count as white in this context

[Chumby]

Minorities can’t be bothered with voter IDs or COVID passports because…systemic racism.

[Ben of Houston]

I don't understand what is so hard for people to understand. When you act like the vaccines don't work, you persuade people that they don't work, and so they don't get them. This constant fear and warning about how vaccinated people aren't safe is exacerbating anti-vaccine sentiment.

The direct quotes from Biden about how he wouldn't take a vaccine made under Trump, and the Harris team getting COVID from the Texas Democrats (meaning high-powered Democrats weren't vaccinated themselves), continue to undercut any progress.

It's simple. Tell people "get the vaccine and all other restrictions are lifted". This acts twofold:
1: People will get confidence as more people act normally. In their eyes, it's more likely that the vaccine works since people act like it works.
2: Even if people are suspicious or skeptical, many people would rather get one shot than bother with masks day-in and day-out.

I don't know how people are messing up something so simple so badly

[Don't look at me!]

I don’t know how people are messing up something so simple so badly.
Name any government run anything that works like it should.

[Rich]

Tell people “get the vaccine and all other restrictions are lifted”.

"But the vaccine is not *perfect*!"

[OneSimpleLesson]

As if masks *are*?!

This isn't directed at you, but if the vaccines are 99.7% effective, are we to believe the masks cover the remaining .3%?

[Rich]

"Of course not. The forthcoming mandatory lockdowns will."

[JesseAz]

Natural immune systems are also 99.7% effective. More so if you are under 55 and not obese.

There are issues with the vaccine. A rare heart issue normally found in 1 in 100k kids increases to 1 in 4k woth the vaccine. Over a disease that has killed only 300 kids with covid (most had multiple other issues). Cdc was also forced to admit the vaccines would cause heart inflammation in males under 30 at a decent rate.

So no, taking the vaccine is not worry free.

People are free to weigh their own risks.

[Don't look at me!]

People are free to weigh their own risks.
That is not the direction we are headed.

[mad.casual]

More so if you are under 55 and not obese.

Walk regularly, spend time outdoors, get enough vitamin D, march in mostly peaceful protests...

It should also be noted that the '25-fold increase in a rare heart issue' is something that would normally void a phase III clinical trial. Especially if there were another vaccine on the market that didn't suffer the same side effect. Even if it passed, it would at least compel a disclaimer in ads.

[ADL]

Natural immunity is a massive consideration that no governmental body is even talking about.

One would think, if covid is as bad as they say it is, that they would be pushing society to shape up. But that is not PC, being fat is celebrated and telling people to take the initiative is against anything the progs stand for. Don't want people empowering themselves.

[MT-Man]

Yes agreed - I had this convo with a professor yesterday. Why do we never talk about or pay for preventative measures we are always reactionary and then overly crazy when reacting when we do have some powerful cheap deterrents that take self commitment to do. Which by the way most people talk a big talk about.

[Eeyore]

For me personally: they lost all credibility when they insisted the vaccine is worth the risk for all children. Blatant bullshit. When they insist on lying like that you simply can't trust anything they say. The conspiracy theories start to sound true.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

According to the CDC the covid survival rate ages 0 to 19 is 99.997 percent. We have no idea what effect this experimental medical treatment will ultimately have on children. This is not a conspiracy theory. What is being perpetrated is evil.

[Eeyore]

I mean that all the "other" theories start to "sound" true. This particular piece of advice is on its face, insane.

[Nardz]

My immune system is 99.9% effective

[CE]

Masks are demonstrably ineffective. Mask mandates were tried last year, to very little positive effect.
The vaccines are demonstrably effective. They are not 100% effective or 100% safe, but nothing ever is.

[Longtobefree]

Or maybe, just maybe, have a vaccine that is approved by the FDA.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Pick one and only one:

1. I don't trust the FDA to regulate faccines appropriately!
2. I don't trust the vaccine because it hasn't been fully approved by the FDA!

[chemjeff radical individualist]

*vaccines, obviously

[JesseAz]

Fatcines?

[Earth Skeptic]

HATE SPEECH!

[mad.casual]

Fakecines.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

At first I thought he typed "Fauccines." That's some serious Freud there.

[Nardz]

Fascines

[R Mac]

Haha, cuz Jeffy’s fat!

[Overt]

How about, "we just don't fucking know because we haven't had the time to study this."

I have an employee who has had serious auto-immune lung issues since getting vaccinated. Her life is hell. You can go online and read about this issue right now. It exists. People don't want that. And yet assholes like yourself want this to be rendered down to "get vaccinated or you are an illogical science denier".

[chemjeff radical individualist]

How about, “we just don’t fucking know because we haven’t had the time to study this.”

We know enough to make an informed decision.

I have an employee who has had serious auto-immune lung issues since getting vaccinated.

Well I am sorry to hear about your employee. But let me respond with an anecdote of my own:

Of the 20 or so people in my circle of friends and family about whom I know they received the vaccine, not a single one reported any long-term effect. Only two reported that they were sick for a day after the second shot. The rest was mild shoulder pain or a mild fever, and that's it.

So why should your anecdote trump my anecdotes?

Why is it that the same people who dismiss the media hysteria about COVID ravaging the land, now blindly accept anecdotal hysteria about the vaccines ravaging the land?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

So why should your anecdote trump my anecdotes?

Because nothing you say should be taken at face value.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

The ultimate in confirmation bias.

"MY anecdotes represent objective reality! YOUR anecdotes are all filthy lies!" -- RRWP in a nutshell

[Don't look at me!]

Yes, he is correct again.

[JesseAz]

You've admitted to being a post modernist who doesn't believe in objectivity.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

"Trust the experts when they're anti-rightist!"--chemtard in a nutshell.

[Overt]

"So why should your anecdote trump my anecdotes?"

I never said it did. They should both be taken as data. It is a fact that some people- especially those with certain risk factors- have increased risk from the vaccine. It is a fact that many people take the vaccine without consequence. It is a fact that some people carry great risk to themselves or others if they contract COVID. It is a fact that for many other people, the risk of COVID is very small.

There is a simple way to resolve our competing anecdotes, and it is to stop pretending that anyone knows the optimal play here- least of all you, or the idiots at the CDC who are stating that the vaccine is totes effective and safe, but please keep wearing your masks that we told you were ineffective.

[I, Woodchipper]

this is what's known as a false dichotomy

[buckleup]

Also defined as classic jeffsterism

[chemjeff radical individualist]

If the FDA is untrustworthy for evaluating the efficacy of medicine generally, why would giving the FDA more time to study the COVID vaccine increase your trust in their assessment?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

If a vaccine is “safe and effective,” as these NPCs keep spouting, then it should be fully cleared for all ages to take, irrespective of whether kids have gone through the clinical trials or not. Like a lot of what far-left Marxists and their liberaltarian apologists spout, their propaganda doesn’t match what’s going on in the real world.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Because the term "safe and effective" only applies to the population of individuals on which the vaccine was tested. Since the vaccine wasn't tested on small kids, we don't know definitely about its safety or efficacy on kids.

This is you taking the term "safe and effective" and distorting it beyond its intended meaning to make a bad faith argument. In other words, par for the course.

[MT-Man]

Jeff I will admit nitpicking and a bit of a bad joke here but shouldn't it be amended to mostly safe and mostly effective?

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Thanks for admitting that "safe and effective" is nothing more than a propaganda slogan.

If they aren't actually "safe and effective" for everyone to take, then they aren't "safe and effective" in general.

[Ron]

Or maybe, just maybe, have a vaccine that is approved by the FDA."

of course any other day before this vaccine libertarians were all complaining about having to get approvals from the FDA for any drugs and even Trump was cheered when he said let people with no other choice use experimental drugs.

I've had the vaccine but i believe in others right to not vaccinate however use better argumentation

[ADL]

Ron, you've conflated two different situations. You're talking about individuals with conditions for which there is no medication, who are dying, that should have access to experimental drugs if they choose to take them.

That is much different that a healthy person deciding not to take a vaccine that doesn't have FDA approval, when their risk from Covid is minute in the first place.

[Sometimes a Great Notion]

Allowed to take and actually taking are two very different things. I think people should be allowed to take heroin, doesn't mean I'll actually be shooting up.

[Nardz]

It is possible to be consistent in believing that the FDA is usually overly slow and cautious, and simultaneously believe that this/these particular vaccine(s) were overly rushed and put out without proper caution.

[Eeyore]

Forced vaccinations should not hinge on full FDA approval or not. Your personal decision might be impacted, but your freedom to choose should not be.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

That's less of an issue than the fact that the full set of clinical trials weren't conducted to determine both short and long-term effects, particularly on little kids and infants. A vaccine with a multi-year testing record that provides sterilizing immunity, especially one with decades of data behind it, is a hell of a lot different than an experimental one that merely mitigates symptoms.

If a vaccine is "safe and effective," as these NPCs keep spouting, then it should be fully cleared for all ages to take, irrespective of whether kids have gone through the clinical trials or not. Like a lot of what far-left Marxists and their liberaltarian apologists spout, their propaganda doesn't match what's going on in the real world.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Withholding information and coercive tactics are bad public health policy. We're seeing the effects of that now in vaccine hesitancy. We're seeing what deliberate polarization does, pitting people against each other, completely invalidating rather than addressing vaccination fears while stoking infection fear.

The loss of public health officials' credibility is what is at play now and they have absolutely no one to blame but themselves. Not right wing media, not QAnon, certainly not Donald Trump. We know that based on the demographics of the hesitant or "anti-vax". People don't want to be managed when personal medical decisions are concerned.

[Derp-o-Matic 6000]

Yeah, public health officials have spent most of the past 15 months openly lying or concealing the truth about things; being wrong on nearly everything; taking political positions on things outside of their areas of expertise; and selling various narratives. All of this is aside from the allegations of corruption with respect to the origins of the virus and their knowledge of such.

Whether or not they are correct on this particular issue, they are not trustworthy and, as you say, have only themselves to blame.

[Derp-o-Matic 6000]

The restrictions were illegitimate to begin with. We don't need permission from the government to live our lives.

[Earth Skeptic]

Your comment has been reported to the Anti-sedition Task Force. Please stand by for corrective action.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

They "track down, arrest, and prosecute" people like you in Australia.

[Earth Skeptic]

How else you gonna "fortify" democracy?

[ADL]

There are legit reasons one decides not to get vaccinated right now.

For starters, the safety trials on Pfizer and Moderna won't be complete until 2022 and 2023, and neither have FDA approval. Then, there are a ton of side effects and even deaths being reported to VAERS from the vaccines. The risk from covid for my age group and fitness level is miniscule, so why shouldn't I wait until we have more safety data?

It is not unreasonable for someone to want to wait given the relatively low risk of serious illness from covid for younger, healthy people that aren't overweight or obese and have no comorbidities.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

The risk from covid for my age group and fitness level is miniscule, so why shouldn’t I wait until we have more safety data?

If you aren't vaccinated, even if your own personal risk is low, you have a higher probability of (1) inducing a mutation into another form of COVID that might be capable of evading the current vaccines, and (2) spreading COVID to someone else, who is at a higher risk than you, someone whom you might care about.

So there are two reasons that go beyond your own personal risk assessment of whether or not to get the vaccine.

[Don't look at me!]

So there are two reasons that go beyond your own personal risk assessment of whether or not to get the vaccine.
Neither of which are more important than my personal liberty. Many people died so I could have it, I think it’s very valuable.

[mad.casual]

(1) inducing a mutation into another form of COVID that might be capable of evading the current vaccines,

This is patently false. A vaccinated population is more likely to contract and propagate mutants than an unvaccinated one. This is how induced mutations are *selected for* in a laboratory setting.

(2) spreading COVID to someone else, who is at a higher risk than you, someone whom you might care about.

Not if they're vaccinated or have already contracted COVID or are you saying that the vaccines don't prevent someone from contracting COVID?

[Claptrap]

#1 was a clear example of someone who hasn't really thought through the logic of their statement. What a stupid thing to even say.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

A vaccinated population is more likely to contract and propagate mutants than an unvaccinated one.

Could you explain this one? If you are vaccinated, you simply don't have a lot of virus in you so there is a low chance of the virus mutating into something else. But if you are unvaccinated, then the amount of virus in you is orders of magnitude higher, and the probability of mutation is consequently higher. It is primarily a numbers game.

[mad.casual]

It is primarily a numbers game.

The Monte Hall problem is just a numbers game. So is the Prisoner's Dilemma. Just because it's a numbers game doesn't mean you have the numbers or know what the hell you're talking about.

There's a long-winded explanation of why you're wrong and a short-winded one. Here's the short-winded explanation that clearly exemplifies the stupidity of your narrow-mindedness that you're much more likely to grasp: Your statements are only true if you assume COVID-19 originated in/strictly infects humans.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Perhaps you could provide a reference to the "long-winded" explanation.

[mad.casual]

Perhaps you could explain how my short-winded one doesn't thoroughly refute your assertion that unvaccinated people are the primary/likely source of mutations first.

[JimboJr]

"Could you explain this one? If you are vaccinated, you simply don’t have a lot of virus in you so there is a low chance of the virus mutating into something else. But if you are unvaccinated, then the amount of virus in you is orders of magnitude higher, and the probability of mutation is consequently higher. It is primarily a numbers game."

You are partially right and he is as well. Yes more viral load and more infections are each events where a virus has the chance to mutate. But a vaccinated individual where a regular COVID can even have a mild infection or a variant infection (that is to say, 100% of vaccinated people) are essentially vessels demanding natural selection to take place.

The more likely the virus stays as standard COVID, the lower the chance it has of survival, the more it can mutate to something more suitable to infecting a vaccinated person who has good protection against COVID (some variant) the more likely it will survive and go on to be able to infect others. Along the lines of antibiotic resistance with bacteria, although obviously not a perfect comparison.

So with vaccine there are less rolls of the dice. But also with vaccine you have introduced something the virus will "want" to select for.

The fact that a fully vaccinated person can still get COVID classic and COVID variants also complicates this picture.

Further complicating it, is that both COVID classic and delta have <1% chance of killing you, and there are potential side effects.

This is why I wouldnt force it on people but chose to get it

[mad.casual]

So with vaccine there are less rolls of the dice.

Again, this assumes a narrow view of mutation and a very controlled view of vaccination. If I have a population of 10,000 vaccinated people and 1 unvaccinated, odds are the 1 person is not going to be the source of mutation. Especially if there are multiple variants that the vaccine varyingly doesn't prevent/control for. Moreover, as I pointed out to chemtard, if weasel or bat physiology (or even no physiology at all) causes more rapid and selective mutation, then the distinction between vaccinated and unvaccinated humans is/can be moot.

And let's not forget, that chemtard is making a numbers argument based on numbers he doesn't have while I'm advancing longstanding/widely-held (non-)medical fact that Jeff's numbers require to be true in order to be applicable.

[JimboJr]

Agreed he is making some assumptions, and also that there are a lot of confounders that make it very difficult to make the kind of claims he makes. This is the issue with most arguments involving science/scientific method. >80% of people dont understand how to interpret the information (they arent scientists or dont have the intellect to interpret the data/concept) and end up just using the data they cherry pick to reinforce their bias.

[JesseAz]

Go pick up an evolutionary biology book. You have a lot of reading to do.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Not if they’re vaccinated or have already contracted COVID or are you saying that the vaccines don’t prevent someone from contracting COVID?

Well, there is always a chance of a breakthrough infection. Why try to deliberately undermine your associates' vaccinations?

[mad.casual]

You have proof that I'm deliberately doing anything other than not getting vaccinated (a "crime" that *everyone* was guilty of until Nov.)? Good luck convicting me without even slim proof that I was even in the vicinity of, much less possession of, the murder "weapon".

[Nardz]

Personally unnecessary obedience to collectivist totalitarianism is how you get more collectivist totalitarianism.

[Overt]

"I don’t know how people are messing up something so simple so badly"

They aren't messing up. Everything is working perfectly. Long ago, there was a secular schism in the puritan movement, and those teetotaling puritans became nanny-statists. The last thing they want is to see conspicuous consumption, partying, happiness or other forms of joy.

No, they want to see visible proof that you are willing to sacrifice for the cause. Whether it is driving your Prius/Tesla with its TOLERANCE (spelled with different religious symbols) bumper sticker or wearing your mask inside the car, they want your supplication on display at all times.

The worst possible result for these crypto-religious nut-jobs is for the world to go back to normal.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Long ago, there was a secular schism in the puritan movement, and those teetotaling puritans became nanny-statists. The last thing they want is to see conspicuous consumption, partying, happiness or other forms of joy.

LOL, pretty much. The Maoist struggle session/critical theory stuff they indulge in isn't any different in style or substance from "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." It's just that their god is the state, not Yahweh.

[mad.casual]

Funny how the puritan fundamentalists became the party of science.

[Earth Skeptic]

That's Science! you blasphemer. And make sure you bow your head when you say that (unless you are orthodox and then should not ever speak the word Sc--nce).

[ADL]

"No, they want to see visible proof that you are willing to sacrifice for the cause."

Leftist revolutions demand complete obedience or they fall apart.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

Very well put; it's the new religion and it's called liberal, progressive, and pro science. And the visible sacrifice for the cause is the new act of contrition, for which you will receive an indulgence. Not forgiveness and grace, but a tick mark that will show up on your social responsibility score.

[JesseAz]

I dont like the government threatening to hold onto restrictions without citizen compliance at all.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Tell people “get the vaccine and all other restrictions are lifted”.

This is exactly what happened with the prior guidance, with "masks are optional if you are vaccinated". What happened is, no one bothered checking and everyone pretended they were vaccinated even if they weren't so as to evade the mask requirement. So this idea only works, IF there is also some type of 'vaccine passport' idea that permits businesses to check whether someone has been vaccinated or not, so as to know whether to require masking or not. But that is a non-starter as well.

As things stand now, there can be only a binary choice between everyone masked, or no one masked.

The issue is, there is a very large segment of the population that believes one or more of the following:
1. they don't trust the vaccine is as safe as the government claims it is
2. they don't believe COVID is that big of a deal
3. they already had COVID and believe that the vaccine affords no additional benefit as a result, compared to the antibodies that they already have
4. they use the refusal to get vaccinated as a political statement against their perceived enemies

No amount of hectoring or badgering or scolding will change their minds at this point. The only thing that might help is direct experience, and/or personal anecdote from trusted associates. That's it.

That is why the obligation really is on all of us, and not the government, to persuade people to get vaccinated. Probably most of us know someone in our circle of friends who isn't vaccinated. At this point it's our job to attempt to persuade them to get vaccinated, not the government's.

[Don't look at me!]

It’s my business to mind my own business.

[Claptrap]

As things stand now, there can be only a binary choice between everyone masked, or no one masked.

No - the other choice is that people who haven't had the shot will have to deal with the consequences, which current events are showing to be the revealed preference of the population. FedGov is making policy contra to that, and are getting shat on accordingly, because they're managing to an irrelevant metric: daily new cases.

[Earth Skeptic]

"there can be only a binary choice between everyone masked, or no one masked"

To be generous to Jeff, this is true in a pre-school context of "fairness".

[chemjeff radical individualist]

No – the other choice is that people who haven’t had the shot will have to deal with the consequences, which current events are showing to be the revealed preference of the population.

Can we at least admit that one's decision to not get the vaccine has potential consequences beyond one's personal health? That an unvaccinated person is more likely to spread the virus to others, and so it is not merely the unvaccinated person alone who has to suffer the consequences of that decision alone?

[Claptrap]

Their chains of associates have the option to be vaccinated as well; it's nothing to lose sleep over. I don't know why this is so hard for you to accept.

[Don't look at me!]

Can we at least admit that one’s decision to not get the vaccine drive a car has potential consequences beyond one’s personal health?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Yes it's true! You ought to have the liberty to get drunk and drive your car at night at 120 mph with no headlights and no seatbelt. That decision of yours, quite possibly, might affect others. Agreed?

[R Mac]

Without seeing any actual data, I’d bet your ridiculous comparison has a much higher death rate than Covid.

[JesseAz]

Hey dumbfuck, you're arguing here every driver should be forced to install a breathalyzer ignition because somebody may drive drunk.

You can't even keep your own idiotic arguments aligned.

[R Mac]

IOW Lying Jeffy failed in multiple ways.

[JesseAz]

Your decision to be fat puts you at higher risk of utilizing medical resources that may cost someone a risk to their own health.

Your decision to drive over 25 mph greatly increases the risk to other drivers of harm or even death.

Likewise above you are crying about viruses that have mutated. A vaccinated person is far more likely to spread a mutated version of the virus than an unvaccinated who would like carry and spread the nominal virus at this time.

[mad.casual]

Probably most of us know someone in our circle of friends who isn’t vaccinated.

Have you checked all your friends' passports?

You admit above that the idea not just won't work, but can't. You keep running through the iterative steps like if you do it enough, and believe hard enough, it will work. You're so far removed from anything resembling facts, science, or reality it's not even funny. You think the borders should be open because immigration control is unworkable but you insist that controlling people based on an even more transient and less distinguishable trait like immunity will work. You are your own joke.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

I am arguing AGAINST a mandate BECAUSE it won't work, and that individual persuasion is the way to get people to be vaccinated, not punitive measures from the state like "if you don't get vaccinated you have to wear masks forever". Maybe try to read what I actually wrote for a change.

[JesseAz]

Yet just above you are basically telling people they have to get vaccinated.

You lie a lot, you know that?

Just like with your voter ID schtick. You support Voter ID.... as long as it is the government going to your house, filling out the forms for you, taking your picture there, and paying for your time while they are there. Then picking you up on voting day, taking you to vote, and again paying for your time.

You're so full of it.

[mad.casual]

Maybe try to read what I actually wrote for a change.

And in turn, show me where I said "mandate".

If you don't know which of your friends are unvaccinated, how are you to know which ones to hector about it? Voting history? The color of their skin? Spanish accent?

[chemjeff radical individualist]

In my case, I politely ask if they've been vaccinated, they either say yes or no (because we are friends, they typically don't give me the "none of your damn business" answer), and if they say no, then I try to engage in a discussion with them. Do you find that objectionable? If so, why?

[mad.casual]

Do you find that objectionable? If so, why?

Show me where I said objectionable. By your own precepts, the only thing required to thwart your social pressure scheme is for people who are already willing to "lie" to government (on principle) and business owners (by proxy) to tell you they've been vaccinated.

You said your approach wouldn't reach the desired aim and then went on to insist that a far less empirical and active method would. You're arguing that rather than picking up a bow and arrow and missing the target just walking around saying you shot a bullseye without ever picking up a bow, will be much more effective at hitting targets. It's not objectionable, it's oxymoronic.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Can you just for a moment imagine a conversation between two friends on whether or not to get vaccinated, that has absolutely nothing to do with government at all? Because that is what I'm imagining. It is not some propaganda scheme cooked up in the CDC basement. It is one friend trying to persuade another to make smart choices. The same way any of us might persuade anyone else that we care for to make smart choices. Stop viewing even private conversations as being directed or coerced by government.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

And in turn, show me where I said “mandate”.

You wrote:

"You admit above that the idea not just won’t work, but can’t."

So what precisely then is "the idea" that you are referring to above? I thought "the idea" to which you were referring was a type of mask mandate. Am I incorrect?

[JesseAz]

Yes. Youre an authoritarian.

[buckleup]

In other words, fatty jeff's rule is that you must hector people to death in order to save them. Under the guiding hand of government of course.

[Sevo]

Certainly an 'individualist' position, right? Sort of like the Peoples 'Republic' of China was a Republic.
Sort of like an outright lie; sort of like what jeff does.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

If you care for someone, you'll attempt to persuade them to make smart choices.

If you object not just to mandates and punitive measures, but even to persuasion, then just go ahead and admit that you are a narcissist who doesn't care about anyone else and go live in a cave far from everyone else.

[Don't look at me!]

You should make a smart choice and shut up.

[Overt]

"If you care for someone"

My god, Jeff! Could you sound any more like a tyrant or Big Brother here?

You don't care for these people. How could you? They are just a caricature you have created in your mind- a faceless composite, described in your tidy numbered lists of "what they believe". That isn't caring unless your version is aligned with Government Welfare Programs or a King fulfilling his divine mandate to Care for his subjects.

You are infantizing millions of people- rendering them down to your caricature, and using that un-empathetic cold calculous to run cover for a government agency that is grasping at straws. It is truly terrifying to see in someone who claims to love liberty.

[mad.casual]

If you care for someone, you’ll attempt to persuade them to make smart choices.

And then, once they've been informed of your opinions, shut the hell up. Not pay for a TV commercial to convince them and all the other people you don't even know who aren't vaccinated to do so.

Moreover, if you *really* care for them rather than your own reputation for virtue, you'll recognize the counterproductive nature of your (s)mothering support them no matter what decision they make.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

So even TV commercials urging people to get vaccinated are objectionable to you now?

Is there any type of mass media communication that attempts to persuade people to get a vaccine that you would find tolerable? Any at all?

[mad.casual]

So even TV commercials urging people to get vaccinated are objectionable to you now?

The commercials aren't objectionable. The lie that you're doing it because you care is. And, no, there is no mass media communication that will convince me you care. Your incompetence at such even serves to convince me that individual media is suspect. Per my comment above, you've well established that you don't actually care about putting arrows in bullseyes as much as you care about convincing people you do. I don't even trust you to know what the bullseye is, much less hit it with an arrow.

[Sevo]

"...That is why the obligation really is on all of us, and not the government, to persuade people to get vaccinated..."

This is why people tell you to fuck off, slaver.

[Overt]

"The issue is, there is a very large segment of the population that believes one or more of the following:"

What is really sad here, Chemjeff, is that you are right about what people believe. But you think they are wrong. And yet, COVID is *not* a big deal for millions upon millions of Americans. Especially those who have already had the virus.

Whether it is drugs, or wearing safety belts, getting vaccinated or wearing a mask, you will always- deep down- have this belief that there is an "optimal" solution that people should chose, and that such an optimal solution is discoverable by you and Top Men.

This is why you will never advance the libertarian cause. Even when a government agency displays rank incompetence, sending muddled messages that compromise our very liberties, you will provide cover for them with these stupid rationalizations about how OF COURSE they have to keep beating us, because those stupid rubes won't do what they ought to do.

This all continues to deny a very specific point: you don't know what is best for those rubes. You think you do, but you don't. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you really join the cause of liberty.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

So, let's just go through this:

Whether it is drugs,

which I believe should be legal

or wearing safety belts,

which I believe should be optional

getting vaccinated or wearing a mask,

which I also believe should be optional

you will always- deep down- have this belief that there is an “optimal” solution that people should chose,

No, I don't believe that there is one single "optimal" solution, but I do believe that there are some choices that are better than others. For instance, the choice to start a heroin habit, vs. the choice to not start a heroin habit. They aren't both equally valid choices and shouldn't be treated as such. Neither one should be mandated by the state, but I don't have to pretend that they are equivalent either.

and that such an optimal solution is discoverable by you and Top Men.

Nope, I don't think that. I do think that there are a range of possible choices for all sorts of situations, that are discoverable by all manners of people, some choices are smarter than others, and we ought to advocate that people make smarter choices rather than dumber choices WITHOUT *mandating* that they make this one specific choice by the government.

This is why you will never advance the libertarian cause. Even when a government agency displays rank incompetence, sending muddled messages that compromise our very liberties, you will provide cover for them with these stupid rationalizations about how OF COURSE they have to keep beating us, because those stupid rubes won’t do what they ought to do.

Did you read my last paragraph? Here let me repeat it:

"That is why the obligation really is on all of us, and not the government, to persuade people to get vaccinated. Probably most of us know someone in our circle of friends who isn’t vaccinated. At this point it’s our job to attempt to persuade them to get vaccinated, not the government’s."

I am NOT advocating for the government to be mandating vaccines or mandating masks. I am advocating for what you claim to want - individuals making their own choice. I am not, however, pretending that all choices are equivalent. Some are better than others. We ought to persuade people to make smarter, rather than dumber, choices. What is wrong with that?

[Overt]

Jeff- you spend every waking moment arguing with the people aligned against the government. If you really believed the government ought to shut up, you would be on here arguing that point. Instead you disagree with everyone and add a disclaimer at the end.

I'm sorry, but either you are deluding yourself or you are the biggest concern troll known to man. I pray it is the former, or I have wasted months talking with you.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Jeff- you spend every waking moment arguing with the people aligned against the government.

Well, no. Mostly, I spend most of my time arguing against (1) right-wing bootlickers who like to pose as being anti-government, but only when the other team is in charge; and (2) paranoid nutballs who dream up irrational delusional reasons to be opposed to the government.

When it comes to masks, I have never once argued in favor of a state-enforced mask mandate. Never. I dare anyone to try to find any quotation from me at any point in the last 1.5 years where I expressed any support for a state-run mask mandate. Private property owners may impose their own mask mandates on their own property, yes. But not from the state.

But as it turns out, quite a few people around here, who are also opposed to a mask mandate like I am, ALSO believe things like (1) "masks don't work", or (2) masks are a political statement and a tool of conformity and part of a plot to turn people into sheep and drones. In other words they aren't merely opposing a mask mandate, they are opposing masks in general. And I don't support that point of view. Masks DO work to a limited extent. And no there is not some vast agenda to use masks to turn people into docile cattle.

And, so, quite a few people have taken these comments to mean that because I don't endorse the anti-mask narrative in its entirety, that I must be "pro-mask-mandate". There is no middle ground. Either one must not just oppose mask mandates, but deny the efficacy of masks entirely; or one must be fully in favor of imposing masks by force, everywhere for any reason. This is just a consequence of the completely batshit insane polarized world that we live in. Where people are segregated into tribes, and loyalty to a tribe is tested not with adherence to the group ideology, but blind acceptance to the tribe's myths and narratives as well.

[Nardz]

The guy whining that everyone else isn't being obedient enough, while simultaneously calling them bootlickers

[Overt]

You also made the argument that if we don't mask up, the government would mandate it. And that if we don't "convince" people to mask up, society won't survive a libertarian world. Again, you have this conceited belief that somehow your read of the facts is optimal and so you spend all your time making the same argument as the forceful government.

Yes, I get it. Those trumpers you have given rent-free access to your fever-dreams are wrong. But even more wrong is the government that is going to force my kids to wear a mask in order to go to school. Masks when in PE. Masks when trying to learn math. I have grade-a students that couldn't get the 50th percentile in state standardized tests because they can't even sit down 1:1 with a teacher to go over their homework. Masking is ABSOLUTELY harming kids in school.

On the one hand, we have the government ramming ridiculous liberty-infringing, and dangerous mandates down our throats. And on the other hand we have a huge number of people resisting that call, some of whom don't believe masks work. You spend all your time complaining about the latter while mumbling tepid objection to the former.

If I see a guy smacking his wife around for flirting with someone else, I don't spend every day trying to convince her not to flirt. I spend my time trying to get the guy to stop smacking his wife. You are doing the exact opposite.

[JesseAz]

You've wasted your time with him. He does exactly as you say so he can pretend to be libertarian as an aside. He has described himself as a socialist libertarian. He defends teachers overriding the will of parents. He supports government corporate collusion. He believes elites should decide the populations morality and actions. Then as you say add a throw away line denying it the end that is meaningless.

Ask him about voter ID and the ridiculous requirements for it so he can claim he is pro voter ID. The argument by him is nonsensical and unworkable.

[MT-Man]

I disagree with the first paragraph but do agree with the points 1 through 4 and the following sentence. I think your last paragraph is ok from your right to do as you want but you do have to understand they are also going to want that same right.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

I don't disagree with your theses; I work in an emergency department and have been directly interfacing with + COVID patients for over a year. Until the vaccine became available to us in December 2020, we relied on a NIOSH approved N 95 mask [technically a regulator for which we had to undergo fit testing] to keep us from getting the virus; it worked as we wore the right equipment, the right way, at the right times. But the flimsy surgical mask that people are being compelled to wear are all but useless in this regard. Those are little more than a gesture of compliance and feel good about oneself signaling.

I also believe in the vaccines, because while they are not fully tested and thus only have FDA emergency approval, they seem to work, and are the best means we have of ending this pox and getting on with our lives; but fully approved or not, no one should be compelled by any government to get it. Because if anything is more important than defeating a pandemic, it is living free enough to do that.

[Earth Skeptic]

Could it be that some people like feeling scared? And that a whole class (and political party) have made a virtue out of helplessness?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

But what if the vaccines... aren't actually working?

[Fist of Etiquette]

California residents expected to vote in the state's September recall election are divided on whether Democratic Gov. Gavin Newsom should be removed from office.

A new round of lockdowns would probably do the trick.

[Moonrocks]

Maybe, but will it matter when 40 million coronavirus victims vote the other way?

[Fist of Etiquette]

...a divided three-judge panel found that designing a custom wedding website is 'pure speech.'

I give it six months.

[BestUsedCarSales]

I figure they can say why pure speech should be illegal faster than that.

[Don't look at me!]

Give people the most up to date info, then let them make their own risk assessments. This is all about risk tolerance."
Not according to some of the totalitarians here. Everyone must toe the line, or there will be punishments!

[Fist of Etiquette]

Walmart is expanding its free college tuition program for employees.

College or union, they'll get that indoctrination either way.

[Chumby]

Bob, Walmart Greeter, PhD

[creech]

The he will be DOCTOR Greeter.

[Jefferson's Ghost]

I received an honorary Doctorate forty years ago. Cost me $25. Who needs to go to college?

[Earth Skeptic]

Shit, I wasted 6 years.

[Sevo]

Dr. Jill, is that you?

[Jefferson's Ghost]

Nope, it's Dr. Falwell's alter-ego.

[Minadin]

It costs more now:

https://www.ebay.com/b/Operation-1965-Vintage-Manufacture-Board-Traditional-Games/19100/bn_112993627

[Fist of Etiquette]

...restaurants and hospitality businesses in states such as Kansas, where the full benefits remain, have been hiring a lot more teenagers who are less experienced and less likely to qualify for unemployment aid.

It would be awful if they continued to gain experience and become more valuable yet less expensive for businesses to employ.

[Rich]

Biden is considering a vaccine mandate or regular mandatory testing for federal employees.

Biden will announce vaccination requirement across federal government on Thursday

[Don't look at me!]

I can’t believe anyone in this administration isn’t vaccinated. Maybe they listened to the warning from SleepyJoe last year about how dangerous it was?

[Chumby]

Another jab at our liberties.

[Rich]

"The Freedom Jab"

[Chumby]

Let freedom sting

[KillAllRednecks]

That’s a good one.

[Sevo]

asshole gets flag

[Chumby]

How many rednecks have you killed?

[Earth Skeptic]

Come on, liberty is very dangerous and racist. None of us can be free until we destroy liberty.

[Ron]

next will be vaccination requirements to do business with government. some of us deal with them on a weekly basis and i'm sure that will be the next step.
lets not forget food workers after that then anyone buying food in person etc etc......

[JesseAz]

Yesterday's performance theater regarding the Jan 6th protests was mesmerizing. It included performance acts from an activist officer and tears from 2 members of congress.

First up Officer Dunn

OFFICER HARRY DUNN: "If a hitman is hired and he kills somebody, the hitman goes to jail. But not only does the hitman go to jail, but the person who hired them does. There was an attack carried out on January 6, and a hitman sent them. I want you to get to the bottom of that."

Dunn then proceeded to discuss how racial insults were thrown his way, a story he adopted in mod February, a month after the attacks. A story not backed by any of the 14000 hours of video.

Officer Dunn is an anti trump activist supporting The Squad and seeking out TV time.

https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/27/teary-capitol-police-officer-who-testified-about-january-6-previously-defended-violent-george-floyd-riots-in-kenosha

[JesseAz]

It of course wouldn't be a non political trial without the democrats lying about the events of the day, including the deaths of 3 officers.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/debunked-claims-officer-sicknick-died-capitol-riot-injuries-reemerge-day-one-hearing

[Mazakon]

I saw it compared to a theatre play. Ignoring the terrible acting, this doesn't seem off. Pelosi and her ilk clearly chose the most partisan "witnesses" they could find who they knew would say exactly what they wanted them to say.

[JesseAz]

The 4 officers were the same ones that have been at multiple hearings and all over MSNBC. No new information was produced yesterday. Misinformation was however.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

And of course, you had Kinzinger weeping like a little girl during his statement. Between him and Ted Lieu, Chair Force members of Congress aren't exactly covering themselves in glory.

That frog-eyed freak Adam Schiff trying to squeeze out some crocodile tears was pretty priceless, too. "Fight Club"s "we're a generation of men raised by women" line finally comes home to roost.

[JesseAz]

Don't name your kids adam.

[Chumby]

Don’t leave your kid named Adam in s Florida mall unattended.

[Sevo]

"...Pelosi and her ilk clearly chose the most partisan “witnesses” they could find who they knew would say exactly what they wanted them to say..."

I have no doubt that the entire presentation was scripted at least as carefully as ANY Stalin show trial.

[Ron]

I want to hear from the officers who opened the gates and opened the doors and those who stood around chatting with the "rioters" while the "rioters" walked around taking pictures. We wont hear form them

[Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)]

I want to hear from the officers who watched Ashley Babbitt die. They didn't seem to understand why she had been shot just a few feet from where they were standing and didn't consider her enough of a threat to even attempt to restrain her.

[Sevo]

"OFFICER HARRY DUNN: “If a hitman is hired and he kills somebody, the hitman goes to jail. But not only does the hitman go to jail, but the person who hired them does. There was an attack carried out on January 6, and a hitman sent them. I want you to get to the bottom of that.”"

Uh, assuming that's true (and so far, the 'hitman' seems armed with tissue paper), that's up to a prosecutor, not a cop.
This asshole seems to be auditioning for a part on NCIS or some such.

[Enjoy Every Sandwich]

The thing about the events of 1/6 is that they would have happened no matter how the election came out. Imagine if Trump had been declared the winner. Would the people who had spent four years declaring that he's "literally Hitler" and that those who voted for him are "fascists" and who spoke of blowing up the White House and posed with mock photos of his decapitated head have really taken the results with quiet grace?

[ElvisIsReal]

I remember bunches of cities boarding up windows on election night.

It wasn't because they were afraid of Trump supporters.

[Earth Skeptic]

Yep, a first degree Mean Words felony.

[Rich]

even vaccinated people should be masking up indoors, if they live in areas "of substantial or high transmission."

To help us understand this guidance: Is the CDC's incompetence "substantial" at this point, or "high"?

[Don't look at me!]

Flailing.

[Jefferson's Ghost]

"'To help us understand this guidance: Is the CDC’s incompetence “substantial” at this point, or “high”?"'

I am not sure, but I hope it's fatal!

[drisco304]

The new mask rules only are in effect on Tuesdays and Fridays, except during leap years when they are in effect every day except Tuesday and Friday. The CDC will shortly issue a press release after it decides whether 2021 is a leap year or not.

[Rich]

LOL

[mad.casual]

The CDC will shortly issue a press release after it decides whether 2021 is a leap year or not.

*lack of shock when it's "discovered" that the next leap year, when masks will be required, is 2024*

[Nardz]

Sounds like the baseketball playoff format

[JesseAz]

Arizona Senate expands their review of SoS Hibbs who has acted against the audit for the last 7 months. Maricopa County continues to ignore judge issued subpoenas for the audit as threats of contempt are made.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/arizona-senate-seeks-records-maricopa-audit-hobbs

If anyone didn't notice yesterday, Twitter took down the accounts of all of the official state audit Twitter accounts across the country.

[Nardz]

Yea, but it's not rEaL fAsCiSm

[ElvisIsReal]

I'm sure it's just a coincidence the "leaders" have a direct line to the social media companies and the stuff that Twitter bans is politically helpful to the "leaders".

[JesseAz]

Rhode Island tells mother of student it will cost her $74,000 to find out if the school is teaching her kid related to anything related to CRT.

https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/28/is-your-kindergartener-learning-crt-rhode-island-school-tells-mom-itll-cost-74000-to-find-out/

[Rich]

Both the principal and chair of the school committee told Solas she would need to submit public records requests in order to find out the content of her daughter’s taxpayer-provided education. When Solas submitted the requests, the school rejected them, claimed the requests were unclear. The school even held a meeting to discuss threats to sue Solas. When attorneys from the Goldwater Institute submitted another request on Solas’s behalf, the school said they could hand over the documents — but only if Solas paid more than $74,000 in processing fees.

I trust that attorneys from the Goldwater Institute will be suing penniless both the principal and chair of the school committee.

[Earth Skeptic]

For the children*.

*In this case the "children" are the barely-educated teacher drones, aka union supporters.

[JimboJr]

I have been assured that the Top Men have chosen the highest of experts in education to teach these elementary school kids. So therefore no one should question them. Unless they are of course...RACIST!!!

[JimboJr]

Also I believe this "meeting" was the show trial where they put her on display in front of the public and talked about how not only would she have to pay this but they were openly discussing filing law suits against her due to her "questioning"

But no doubt, CRT is on the up and up!

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

“What our children learn in school shouldn’t be a government secret,” he said. “I don’t think it’s a controversial proposition to say we should have open and transparent government, especially when we’re talking about publicly funded schools using our tax dollars and here you just have a conscientious parent asking ‘Hey, what’s my child going to learn?’”

Just a quick reminder that chemtard radical deathfat argued yesterday that parents shouldn't be concerned with whether race-shaming is taking place in schools, and he was far less concerned with teachers telling their kids to lie to the parents about this than he was about the school not being able to teach race-shaming.

[JesseAz]

Breakdown of the family is a key goal of Marxists and authoritarians. China and Nazi Germany both indoctrinated kids to report their parents.

Jeff is a marxist so he supports it.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Note that the school committee for this district is all women:

Christie Fish--Election campaign motto: "Bridging the gap through equity (there's that word again) and understanding."
Kate McMahon Macinanti
Melissa Boyd
Michelle Brousseau
Paula Whitford

Remember, the last thing these people want (and that includes their liberaltarian defenders like chemfat) is for you to get involved in your local community and resist their agenda. They want you apathetic so they can steamroll their plans without any sort of transparency. That's why when you try to hold them accountable, they show their true totalitarian colors.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Oh look, another day, another complete slander about me from RRWP.

If parents want to be concerned about what's in their kids' curriculum, then go right ahead and express that concern. The proper solution IMO is not for the parents or the schoolboard to be micromanaging assignments or lesson plans, but for the school board to be setting an overall direction for the school district, and then leaving it up to the school district to hire qualified teacher professionals to perform their duties consistent with that direction.

Of course, in response to this very "controversial" point of view, there were quite a few responses which denigrated the entire teaching profession itself. Stay classy, people!

You know, if I really was the horrible person that he claims I am, he wouldn't have to resort to lying about my views in order to make them sound worse than they actually are. He would just straight up repeat what I said and that would be bad enough. But he can't do that, because he knows I am not this caricature of evil that he pretends that I am, but he takes the duty upon himself to twist me into that caricature.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Oh look, another day, another complete slander about me from RRWP.

This was literally what you wrote yesterday, you fat fuck:

chemjeff radical individualist
July.27.2021 at 10:59 am

Congratulations, here is your backlash. Now, we won’t have discussion at all of these topics in the classroom. Hope you are happy.

If parents want to be concerned about what’s in their kids’ curriculum, then go right ahead and express that concern.

"You can express concern, just don't expect the people whose salaries you pay with your taxes to not be held accountable for their actions, because doing so is 'micromanaging' them."

The proper solution IMO is not for the parents or the schoolboard to be micromanaging assignments or lesson plans, but for the school board to be setting an overall direction for the school district,

Hey, dumbshit, if the school board is going out of its way to hide what it's doing by making onerous demands on providing public documents, what the fuck do you think is going to happen when parents who don't agree with this decide to finally resist it? Or when they tell kids to lie to their parents? Try to pretend for once that you're not a fat, loveless incel and exercise, for once, the empathy you're constantly demanding others to practice.

Of course, in response to this very “controversial” point of view, there were quite a few responses which denigrated the entire teaching profession itself. Stay classy, people!

My wife is a schoolteacher, and a Democrat voter. You want to know how incompetent people in the profession can be, just live with someone who's on the inside. If any of them would actually touch you without gagging, of course.

You know, if I really was the horrible person that he claims I am, he wouldn’t have to resort to lying about my views

I don't do anything other than repeat the very arguments you make. You're just ass-mad, like the bureaucrats and leftists you're protecting, that their premises are rejected.

[JesseAz]

It isn't slander to repeat what you say daily.

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2]

Officers label Jan. 6 rioters 'terrorists' in select committee hearing

The officers rejected the idea that Jan. 6 was a "normal tourist visit," as one House Republican said.

"But I came prepared," he continued, reading an excerpt of U.S. statute that defines "domestic terrorism" as "activities that involve acts dangerous to human life" that violate criminal law and "appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population or to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion." The Trump supporters who stormed the Capitol on Jan. 6 aimed to disrupt the congressional certification of Donald Trump's Electoral College loss to President Joe Biden.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/27/capitol-officers-testimony-jan-6-hearing-500850

5000 MAGA terrorists, uhhh TOURISTS just happened to be there, right?

[Sevo]

turd lies. It's what he does. If turd cites numbers, they are outright lies or cherry-picked such as to be worthless.
turd lies every time he posts as above; EVERY turd post is a lie.
turd lies; it's what he does.

[Sarah Palin's Buttplug 2]

May Nancy Pelosi queef directly upon your maskless face.

[Sevo]

turd lies. It’s what he does. If turd cites numbers, they are outright lies or cherry-picked such as to be worthless.
turd lies every time he posts as above; EVERY turd post is a lie.
turd lies; it’s what he does.

[OpenBordersLiberal-tarian]

Heavily. Armed. Insurrection.

#1/6WasWorseThan9/11

[JesseAz]

They just described the entire BLM protests from last year. Weird.

[buckleup]

buttplug's world: grandmas are terrorists, kids are playthings.

[JesseAz]

He is jealous grandmothers can bounce young kids on their lap and he can't.

[Chumby]

He’s the happiest mall Santa ever.

[Rich]

The CDC Has Confused Everybody. Again.

It's a Pandemic of Confusion, a true Public Health Emergency!

[mad.casual]

Now did you read the news today
They say the danger's gone away
But I can see the fire's still alight
There burning into the night

[Longtobefree]

There is nothing confusing about the CDC "guidance".
They are ignoring all medical science and advocating fascist policies to benefit the democratic socialist workers party of North America.

[Michael Ejercito]

The CDC is now pushing anti-vaxx misinformation.

[A Cynical Asshole]

Overall, application of the new guidance seems unlikely to jibe with actual threat levels, as areas with high vaccination rates—which also tend to be largely liberal areas—are most likely to impose new rules, despite low hospitalization rates, and the people most likely to follow the CDC's new guidance seem to be those least likely to benefit from it.

I suspect the point of this new guidance isn't to make sense, nor is it to give "progressive utopias" an excuse to re-impose mask mandates. I suspect the purpose of this is to give the federal government an excuse to mandate masks at the federal level, which will force all those "backwards red states" to heel - or else. That and as always, "because fuck you, that's why."

[Derp-o-Matic 6000]

I suspect it's part of a larger plan. If the red states don't bow to the mandate, it gives them license to take harsher steps.

[Nardz]

#FLexit

[Chumby]

#Texit

[Earth Skeptic]

"The CDC Has Confused Everybody. Again."

Mission Accomplished!

[Earth Skeptic]

""For most of the pandemic, the CDC's guidance has felt reasonable," writes Oliver Darcy in CNN's Reliable Sources newsletter"

Definitely not a landlord.

[Derp-o-Matic 6000]

Definitely not someone who has followed CDC guidance.

[mad.casual]

CNN’s Reliable Sources newsletter

Talk about confusing.

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Don’t look now but New York is closing in on one of its lowest July homicide rates on record.

It's like there was some type of violent, coordinated event going on last July, that was encouraged by the leftist mayor of NY.

And despite this, the CompStat sheet shows that murder is up 1.3% for the year.

[Ron]

The CDC also says that vaccinated people exposed to someone with the coronavirus should be tested and quarantine"

Wait what BS if your vaccinated no need to quarantine. its not my job to protect others just like its not my job to take the bottle of whisky from a drunkard, we tired that once and it failed

[Nardz]

Don't you even collectivism, bro?

[Earth Skeptic]

"The Justice Department seized a rare cuneiform tablet from Hobby Lobby"

Was is relaying unapproved claims about COVID vaccines?

[Derp-o-Matic 6000]

Someone reported there was a picture of a noose on it.

[A Cynical Asshole]

"50/50 masked/unmasked at a Whole Foods in Manhattan tonight. Seems right," tweeted CNN's Brian Stelter. "Give people the most up to date info, then let them make their own risk assessments. This is all about risk tolerance."

That's really rich coming from a man who works for one of the biggest purveyors of pandemic fear porn for the last year and a half. Also, why am I not surprised that douchebag shops at Whole Foods?

[Claptrap]

My Whole Foods stocks really great cheeses and steaks. I won't begrudge anyone from going there for that reason alone.

[mad.casual]

My Whole Foods stocks really great cheeses and steaks.

IME, at 1.5X the price of really great cheese and steaks elsewhere. I won't begrudge anyone from going there for that reason. I will mock their stupidity and envy those fleecing them though.

[MT-Man]

I'm guessing there was no food left when he was done shopping.

[Union of Concerned Socks]

The CDC Has Confused Everybody. Again.

The who?

It's over, people. Move on.

[BestUsedCarSales]

No, not the WHO, the CDC.

[Claptrap]

it is hard to argue against the idea that the current Delta wave .. is turning out to be much, much milder than we anticipated

Quelle surprise! It's almost like obsessing over positive tests in a highly vaccinated population is stupid.

Note: the UK Delta wave lasted from ~5/25 - 7/20; India's from ~3/15 - 5/8. Ours started 7/6. We should be cresting just when or right before school starts, perfect timing for the mask wars to turn even more idiotic.

[Billy Bones]

Speak for yourself. I am not confused why mask mandates are on their way back. It is an exercise in capitulation. How far can we push the citizenry before they rebel? We cannot institute socialism in this country until the citizenry is conditioned to follow all dictates of the government.

[Nardz]

^bingo

[raspberrydinners]

Who really gives a fuck? The CDC said to get vaccinated but all the jackasses of the world couldn't even do that (you know, free and easy.)

This won't make a dent either way because the true cause of all this prolonged turmoil is the selfish assholes who are determined to let this go on for as long as possible. Heaven forbid they do a gd thing for themselves or others.

[Don't look at me!]

You’re right. Why is SleepyJoe doing this?

[buckleup]

Sounds like a whiny sci fi writer who preens about telling others what to do.

[Weigel's Cock Ring]

Maybe your personal Hotep, Block Insane Yomomma, should emerge from his $8 million command center bunker in Kalorama to encourage the black Americans who worship, adore, venerate, and deify him even more than you do to get vaccinated. You know, instead of telling them how racist and evil America is all the time.

[Mother's Lament]

Exactly. Those idiots don't want to get inoculated with a completely experimental substance that has no actual relationship to any protein vaccination ever, and was just theory only four years ago.
Sure it's inventor is appearing everywhere he can to warn people about how potentially dangerous it is, but what would he know about it.

After all, Tony here has doctorates in virology and applied genetics from the University of CNN.

[Unicorn Abattoir]

Don't your knees hurt?

[Sevo]

Pretty sure his tongue does from liking those boots.

[Cronut]

And his tonsils are very bruised.

[mad.casual]

The CDC said to get vaccinated but all the jackasses of the world couldn’t even do that (you know, free and easy.)

It's neither free nor easy until they can mail several vaccines to my door and accept the empty syringes back as proof that anyone who knows the street address is vaccinated.

[LibertyWeeb]

Clever. I like it.

[Nardz]

Yes, you selfish assholes really need to stop holding the world hostage to your neurotic fear

[Fat Mike's Drug Habit]

"And yet, the CDC's latest guidance treats parts of New York exactly the same way it treats Louisiana. It doesn't make much sense…"

That's dangerously close to a wingnut "but muh States' Rights!" argument comrade.

[Don't look at me!]

It was ok when the opposite was happening.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

"For most of the pandemic, the CDC's guidance has felt reasonable," writes Oliver Darcy in CNN's Reliable Sources newsletter:

Fuck off, CNN.

[Mother's Lament]

An always appropriate response

[KillAllRednecks]

So have you found me posting the crap you claimed I posted yet?

If I did it as often as you said it should be easy to find.

Just look back when Israel and Palestine were going at it a few weeks ago.

I’ll quit posting if you can cite me saying the crap you’ve claimed.

I’m sure your Mormon pals would appreciate it.

[Sevo]

asshole's busy today.

[Mother's Lament]

Scared huh, you JewandMormon-hating serial killer wannabe? It was around April and May. There's a lot of pages to go through but I'll give it a good hour a day.

You'll never keep your word because you're a liar, but it will still be good to chase you around with.

[KillAllRednecks]

If I was scared why would I keep bringing it up and offering to quit posting?

I keep bringing it up because I know I’d never say those things.

I’ve given you an out. You could have me confused with someone else. I confused Sevo and Nardz, and I’m not a senile 12 step loser like Sevo.

[Mother's Lament]

"If I was scared why would I keep bringing it up and offering to quit posting?

1. Because you thought that I wouldn't bother to look back that far.

2. Because you're not going to keep your word anyway because you're a consummate liar and shitposting troll.

[KillAllRednecks]

Prove me wrong then.

Prove me wrong!

Until then stop calling me a Jew hater!

[Sevo]

two more flags for the asshole!

[Claptrap]

Even gentry liberal, COVID-panic organs are questioning this move. It's a massive fuck up politically, regardless of whether it would do any marginal good on pure COVID terms.

With any luck this will be the catalyst for us properly ignoring CDC guidance the way we do in more normal times.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Even gentry liberal, COVID-panic organs are questioning this move. It’s a massive fuck up politically, regardless of whether it would do any marginal good on pure COVID terms.

There was a lot of hand-wringing by these types when Walensky first issued that release, because they knew damn well it would piss a lot of people off if a mask mandate was ever brought back. What's the point of getting a shot if you have to wear a mask anyway?

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Don't look now, but safe injection site known as Seattle (King County) is about to set another record for Homicide and gun violence.

KING COUNTY, Wash. — King County is on track to set another deadly record for gun violence this year.

According to data from the county, Black, Latinx and Indigenous people were disproportionately impacted as victims, bystanders, and perpetrators.

In the first quarter of 2021, there were 253 shots fired incidents, which is a 25% increase compared to a four-year average of the same time period from 2017 to 2020.

FYI, the ONLY people calling them "Latinx" are journalists. That's it.

[Fat Mike's Drug Habit]

I appreciate the "and perpetrators" part of the statement, like someone who picks up a gun and commits a crime with it is also a victim due to skin color.

Seems pretty overtly racist to me to assume minorities don't know how to not commit gun crimes.

[mad.casual]

In the first quarter of 2021, there were 253 shots fired incidents

253 shots fired per quarter? Is there some sort of ammo shortage in King County. - Chicago

[Mother's Lament]

I want to cordially invite chemjeff, White Mike Laursen, Tony and DOL to fuck off forever:

DOJ quietly acknowledges there was no sedition at the US Capitol
https://www.lawofficer (dot) com/doj-quietly-acknowledges-there-was-no-sedition-at-the-us-capitol

Those four psychopaths have deliberately pushed a lie here, that they knew was pure slander, for the purposes of advancing fascist political control in America and persecuting political opponents.

They are evil demagogues plain and simple.

[KillAllRednecks]

So have you found me posting the crap you claimed I posted yet?

If I did it as often as you said it should be easy to find.

Just look back when Israel and Palestine were going at it a few weeks ago.

I’ll quit posting if you can cite me saying the crap you’ve claimed.

I’m sure your Mormon pals would appreciate it.

[Sevo]

'nother flag

[Mother's Lament]

I'll find it, you antisemitic piece of shit. We both know what you said, you bigoted hate-mongering fuck.
Keep sputtering because it makes it all worthwhile.

[Mother's Lament]

Another point. KAR is using this to deliberately try and distract from the point that the DOJ has acknowledged there was no sedition at the US Capitol.

I've long thought that he was sarcasmic/sqrlsy because of the Mormon schtick and the low IQ, but this is more something Buttplug or White Mike would try and pull.

[KillAllRednecks]

Change the subject.

I bringing it up because I don’t appreciate being called anti Semitic by a Mormon loving compulsive liar.

Please cite me saying what you’ve claimed or stop accusing me of being anti Semitic please.

[Mother's Lament]

Listen you Jew-hating piece of shit. I never brought up your antisemitic nonsense in my original post. I didn't even mention your psychopathic ass.

You did.

You brought it up to try and distract from the fact that the DOJ has acknowledged there was no sedition at the US Capitol.

[KillAllRednecks]

Ok. Fair enough. I just looked for a post by you to remind you to cite me being anti Semitic or stop calling me anti Semitic. I didn’t read it.

I don’t care what the DOJ says. The people who want Trump to overturn the election are traitors in my book.

[Nardz]

Go fuck yourself, KARen

[KillAllRednecks]

“KARen” sick burn Nardz!

You got me there!

[Sevo]

flag, and flag, asshole.

[Chumby]

Good one!

[KillAllRednecks]

Thanks Gumby!

That means a lot coming from you!

[KillAllRednecks]

The ironic thing is the majority of Mormons are anti-Semitic(although they LOVE the state of Israel). You love kissing Mormon ass and defending them.

I’ve spent years calling out their anti Semitic bullshit.

[Sevo]

flagged asshole

[Mother's Lament]

No you haven't you Jew-hating fuck. And every Mormon I've met wasn't near as antisemitic as you.

I know, I know, you only hate "Israeli Jews".

[KillAllRednecks]

Please cite me saying the horrible things you claim I have?

That’s funny. Because the majority of Mormons I met had no problem with the k word.

However don’t you dare mutter “god damn” because you need to respect other people’s beliefs.

[Sevo]

asshole flag!

[Mother's Lament]

"the majority of Mormons I met had no problem with the k word"

You really just do nothing but lie, don't you, you antisemitic piece-of-shit.

[KillAllRednecks]

Please cite me being anti Semitic then or stop calling me a “Jew hater.”

I heard the k word and the f word(not fuck, the one you use sometimes) all the time.

[Sevo]

'nother asshole flag

[Chumby]

Fauci?

[KillAllRednecks]

This was a few years ago, so he wasn’t the rockstar/Bond villain he is today.

[Sevo]

asshole flag!

[Chumby]

This is his second act. He protected all the folks during the HIV pandemic crisis. He promoted that one could contract that through casual contact.

[KillAllRednecks]

Yeah I know about his malarkey back then.

I just mean he wasn’t a household name in the late 2000s early 2010s.

You didn’t have rednecks wanting him charged with crimes against humanity or the progs on SNL sucking his dick.

[Chumby]

How many rednecks have you killed?

[KillAllRednecks]

Zero.

My name’s in jest.

It should be KillAllMormons, but KAMan doesn’t work for an insult.

I like to cut you guys a little slack…

[Chumby]

How many Mormons have you killed?

[KillAllRednecks]

Why?

Are you the fuzz or something?

[Ken Shultz]

It says Hobby Lobby wanted to display the cuneiform artifact as part of the "Museum of the Bible". I bet this is the part of the Epic of Gilgamesh that describes the flood.

"Gilgamesh observes that Utnapishtim seems no different from himself, and asks him how he obtained his immortality. Utnapishtim explains that the gods decided to send a great flood. To save Utnapishtim the god Enki told him to build a boat. He gave him precise dimensions, and it was sealed with pitch and bitumen. His entire family went aboard together with his craftsmen and "all the animals of the field". A violent storm then arose which caused the terrified gods to retreat to the heavens. Ishtar lamented the wholesale destruction of humanity, and the other gods wept beside her. The storm lasted six days and nights, after which "all the human beings turned to clay". Utnapishtim weeps when he sees the destruction. His boat lodges on a mountain, and he releases a dove, a swallow, and a raven. When the raven fails to return, he opens the ark and frees its inhabitants."

----Epic of Gilgamesh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh#Tablet_eleven

It's basically the story of Noah and the Ark from an independent source, which is to say it's not from the Bible. I don't know why we're talking about this unless the point is to just make fun of Christians. Humanity was telling stories for 144,000 years before the dawn of recorded history, 6,000 years ago, and both the Epic of Gilgamesh and the story in Genesis are probably adaptations of earlier stories that came down through oral history. I don't know who here believes in God, but the God of the Bible is big enough to account for oral histories across thousands of years. If he exists and he wanted to teach us something from an old story, he could do that.

If there's something interesting to say about this, it's probably about the nature of science. Thousands of years ago, they knew that the marble they took from mountain quarries was riddled with the fossils of shells. In North America, you can find sea shells in the great basin, and that's not unusual in other deserts or on other mountaintops all over the world. It may have been more reasonable to conclude that a flood once covered the mountains with shells than it was to conclude that the mountains were once under a sea that was miles and miles away.

The Epic of Gilgamesh and the story of Noah and the Flood may have been consistent with the science of its time. If you perceive of God as part of the natural world, then stories about him aren't necessarily supernatural. Science is limited by perspective.

The reasonable consensus on what we knew changed when we ground lenses for telescopes and saw things in the solar system--like moons orbiting other planets--that we couldn't see before. We ground lenses for microscopes and saw tiny creatures we'd never seen before. All this changed what we thought we already understood.

Whatever else we have to say about the flood story, it's hard to argue that it doesn't still resonate with people 6,000 years later--regardless of whether you believe in the story yourself. If Hobby Lobby wanted the artifact because the story still resonates with people, they wanted it for a good reason. Christians use it to teach children about redemption. You have a higher purpose when you do the right thing. There are lots of animals in the story, and it ends with a rainbow. It's kind of like The Lion King.

What's wrong with that?

[Mike Laursen]

"I don’t know why we’re talking about this unless the point is to just make fun of Christians."

First of all, you answered your own question a few (long) paragraphs later: "Whatever else we have to say about the flood story, it’s hard to argue that it doesn’t still resonate with people 6,000 years later–regardless of whether you believe in the story yourself." These old stories are an important part of our culture, and entertaining.

Second, this is not the first time I have seen right-wing commenters here saying, "Why are we talking about this?" or "Why is Reason writing about this?" You get all touchy if certain subjects are discussed.

[Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)]

Really? You are are going to call Ken Schultz a right-wing commenter? You are the by far the dumbest of the $.50 crew.

[Ken Shultz]

And the thing I wrote are either true or false regardless of anything she says about me personally.

[Mike Laursen]

LOL, I didn't comment on the truth or falsity of what you wrote.

[JesseAz]

So you were trolling?

[Sevo]

Like Tony, turd, sarc/jeff, he's not mentally capable of realizing he's gotten called on bullshit yet one more time.
Perhaps it's an early 'bottle' habit as opposed to abysmal stupidity, but it really doesn't matter.

[Mike Laursen]

Ken is being a total dick in the comments on the Simone Biles story. Shows that he will opine at length on any topic, even one he obviously knows nothing about:

https://reason.com/2021/07/28/simone-biles-doesnt-exist-to-make-america-proud/#comment-9016852

[Mother's Lament]

Second, this is not the first time I have seen right-wing commenters here saying, “Why are we talking about this?” or “Why is Reason writing about this?” You get all touchy if certain subjects are discussed.

1. That's not what Ken was doing.

2. I had to laugh, because you just outlined your own modus operandi here, exactly. It's like you copypasted it straight out of your talking points manual.
Every time something unflattering to the Democratic Party is mentioned, you're covering the comments section with “Why are we talking about this?”.

Really, who do you think that you're fooling?

[Fat Mike's Drug Habit]

"Really, who do you think that you’re fooling?"

The only people who lack the mental capabilities to see through it are the other members of the $.50 crowd, ironically the only people around here he doesn't need to fool.

[JesseAz]

Sarcasmic mostly.

[Don't look at me!]

I thought the big problem was the artifact was considered stolen goods.

[Ken Shultz]

Lots of artifacts were looted from museums in the aftermath of the Iraq War, and this was probably one of them. We're talking about this because it's Hobby Lobby and the story of the flood, though, right? If we were talking about Bezos somehow ending up with, say, Galileo's stolen writings about the moons of Jupiter, we probably wouldn't see it here in morning links.

[The Encogitationer]

It would be just as much a concern for me if anyone had these artifacts illegitimately. The Church's persecution of Galileo set back the practice of science for 400 years in every part of Europe under Church control. That is too long to keep scientific discovery in the dark without contemporaries contributing to the problem.

[Chumby]

There are plenty of artifacts in museums with questionable means of possession. The Elgin marbles for instance. This is a story because of Hobby Lobby.

[JesseAz]

Sadly your ignorance of what actually happened between the Church and Galileo shows you stopped learning about the story after burning.

The discussion between them was generally centered on scientific principles. So was Copernicus. See the discussions on Parallax. yes religion was involved, but much of the discussions between the two were based around science.

The Church was actually one of leading developers of modern science during the dark ages in fact.

But you choose ignorance to defend your bigotry.

[The Encogitationer]

The "discussions" had the veiled and explicit threats of imprisonment, the wheel, the rack, the thumbscrew, and auto-de-fé from the Church. They were harsh enough to drive Copernicus up North to safer territory, among many other great minds.

Can The Church really claim to have developed modern science when both deductive and inductive reasoning developed centuries before, with the Pre-Socratic and Socratic Thinkers of Greece and the Charvaka/Lokayata School of Ancient India?

And can it really claim to be the developer of modern science after having sacked and burned countless thousands of scientific works in The Library of Alexandria, along with earlier attempts by the Romans and later attempts by Islam?

And since the Church was the only game in town in Dark Ages Christendom for any kind of scholarship, isn't the Church's involvement in science purely circumstancial? Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc anyone?

If pointing out the obvious, documented failings and wrongs of religion in general and Abrahamic religion in particular is bigoted, that's a pretty low bar for the accusation.

[The Encogitationer]

I mispoke. I was thinking of Rene Descartes when I mentioned Copernicus moving to Northern Europe. Descartes did move, Copernicus didn't. My mistake.

Nevertheless, the Church didn't take keen to Copernicus' Heliocentrism and that figured highly into their persecution of Galileo.

[Ken Shultz]

The Church's persecution of Galileo was incidental to them losing control of two thirds of Europe. Modern history begins around 1500 because of the Reformation. Galileo's persecution over geocentric theory was in 1633. They had to settle for toleration by the Peace of Westphalia (1648). Galileo was the church destroying itself.

[The Encogitationer]

If so, the Church didn't do a good enough job on itself.

[Ken Shultz]

They're nothing like they used to be before 1500 CE.

[Mike Laursen]

Who knows what the counterfactual here might be, but this is most definitely an instance of your assuming the conservative victimhood narrative.

[JesseAz]

White Knight is talking about victimhood and narratives?!?

[Sevo]

"Who knows what the counterfactual here might be,..."

Lefty pile of shit mutes someone and then speculates what they posted?
Again, could be an early drinker, or just an abysmally stupid pile of lefty shit.

[Chumby]

Mike is the one that thought the formula for water is HO2. So likely the latter.

[The Encogitationer]

Bingo! And just who is doing all this plundering of ancient artifacts and selling them to people who auction them off to Christian businesses? Could this be Al-Qaeda or ISIS using people as plunder mules? Shouldn't that concern everybody that pieces of ancient civilization are being used to undermine civilization?

[The Encogitationer]

Ken, The Epic of Gilgamesh and three other flood epics actually preceeded the story of Noah. And no Christian that I know of has ever cited the Epics in Sunday School or in a sermon. That would be placing other gods before JHVH-1. And if there was some lesson to be imparted by JHVH-1, couldn't he have done it in one try and without destroying a Planet?

And by the way, there are tons of things wrong with the "science" in the Flood epic. First off, the whole reason for the Flood in the first place was that JHVH-1 thought his entire creation was a mistake, which, of course, contradicts all the claims of his perfection.

Then there are the dimensions of the Ark fitting 2 to 7 of every animal on the Planet and making them all not suffocate and not eat each other in that confined space which had only one window of a cubit and a half squared for forty days and nights. (There are also plenty of places in the would that get rain nearly year-round which do not flood.)

Then there's the fact that no fish and sea mammals are preserved, and no vegetation is preserved, which would have meant no more Oxygen would be produced.

And all of that flood water would have spread biohazards from all the dead humans and animals left behind. Then it would spread toxic Elements like Lead, Arsenic, Coal, Radium, Uranium, and others into the ecosphere and killed anything it contacted.

And if the Flood covered the whole Earth, the waters would have to be over 5 miles deep to cover Mt. Everest and Noah and Family and all the animals would have needed Oxygen tanks to survive the low atmospheric pressure.

Like River Tam observed in Firefly: It's broken.

And if there were any being that could be capable and responsible for all of that, we would not only want that being tried, convicted, and executed for genocide, but we would have to create the crime of species-cide, biocide, and orbicide to do him full justice. Not a good model for the kiddies.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Ken, The Epic of Gilgamesh and three other flood epics actually preceeded the story of Noah.

We don't know that for sure, because we don't really know how far back the Hebrew people really go and when it was first established among them. Like Ken said, a lot of these desert tribes passed along stories orally; it's likely the Hebrews themselves didn't even establish their own system of writing until around the end of the Bronze Age when they began urbanizing.

[The Encogitationer]

So I understand, there are enough parallelisms between the stories to suggest that lots of sharing and addendums took place among these tales. There were also many parallels between the story of Jesus Christ and figures in earlier and distant Hindu, Egyptian, Greco-Roman, and Norse mythologies.

[Nardz]

Christianity is a syncretic religion.
I'd suggest you read some Joseph Campbell, but it seems you're all about your A(nti)theist signaling and juvenile Christian derision rather than actual curiosity regarding Man's instinctual drives and processes.

[Roberta]

the whole reason for the Flood in the first place was that JHVH-1 thought his entire creation was a mistake, which, of course, contradicts all the claims of his perfection.

Who claims he was perfect then? He was still learning from his mistakes. Now he's learned, and now he's perfect.

[Roberta]

In fact that's all Jehovism, and some other religions, are about in a nutshell: that you should learn from your mistakes and those of others, and become perfect like Jehova did — and that he would help you in that endeavor.

[The Encogitationer]

You must be a marathon runner seeking to outrun both the peasant believers with pitchforks and Lady Gaga's Little Monsters, because they'll both tell you "God makes no mistakes."

[Ken Shultz]

Christianity is about reconciling the existence of evil with an omnipotent God. People who think Christians can't cope with bad things happening to good people don't know the first thing about Christianity or the last event in Jesus' life.

It's about reconciling how and why an omnipotent God would let something like that happen to the messiah. It has something to do with free will. Standard Islam has it that Jesus wasn't crucified for that reason. They believe in predestination or determinism, and God wouldn't let something like that happen to a perfectly good man.

The flood story encompasses free will, as well.

You people are evil. Your evil is unsustainable. There's a flood coming. God will save you, but you have to get on the boat. Get on the boat. They see all the animals get on the boat of their own accord. But they won't get on the boat. Once the floodwaters rise above their necks, they decide now would be a good time to get on the boat. Too late.

Making your choice now that it's time to suffer the consequences won't do. You need to choose to avoid the consequences of your own free will before the only choice left is between doing the right thing or total destruction. There's a lesson in there, too, for people today. The time to slash spending isn't after inflation goes into double digits, right?

[Ken Shultz]

"Ken, The Epic of Gilgamesh and three other flood epics actually preceeded the story of Noah. And no Christian that I know of has ever cited the Epics in Sunday School or in a sermon."

My point was that the flood story probably evolved from other oral traditions that predated the Epic of Gilgamesh. Genesis as we know it was complied from various sources under the Persians. Those sources had earlier sources of their own. There are plenty of fundamentalist Christians who will be happy to tell you that a pagan manuscript that independently confirms the Bible's truth is a legitimate source. They'll tell you that Zoroastrian priests [wise men] knew who Jesus was and how to find him from independent sources, too. That's not unusual.

"And by the way, there are tons of things wrong with the “science” in the Flood epic."

----The Encogitationer

Let's look at what I wrote again:

"It may have been more reasonable to conclude that a flood once covered the mountains with shells than it was to conclude that the mountains were once under a sea that was miles and miles away . . . The Epic of Gilgamesh and the story of Noah and the Flood may have been consistent with the science of its time."

----Ken Shultz

I didn't say that the story of the flood is consistent with the science of today. I said that given the data that was available to them 6,000 years ago, the explanation for why there are shells on the top of the mountains may have been more consistent with the idea that there was once a flood that covered them than the explanation that the mountains had somehow migrated miles and miles onto land from under the sea. Their mythology evolved in harmony with their understanding of the world, given the scientific data they had available to them, and that applies to Genesis, The Epic of Gilgamesh, and the oral histories that preceded them.

Science today has the same problem. We can only draw conclusions from the data we have available to us today, and as new data comes in from new ways of perceiving the world and new says of generating data become available, the scientific conclusions change. Contrast that with the way stories like Noah and the Ark or the The Lion King resonate with kids today.

While science has come to the point where we're able to describe how the universe could have come into being without the intention or direction of a creator God, science really can't speak for or against the idea that the world and the people in it all sprang into existence without any purpose or meaning. And existential panic isn't much of way to assimilate children into a culture or teach them right from wrong.

Stories like Noah's ark and The Lion King speak directly to that kind of thing. People have found meaning and purpose in stories like that for thousands of years--hundreds of thousands of years if you want to go back to the oral tradition. There isn't anything wrong with turning to religion, culture, etc. for these kinds of things. There's a whole scientific discipline devoted to its study called cultural anthropology.

Making fun of people for turning to religious traditions to look for meaning in their lives is like making fun of them for having opposable thumbs. When's the last time you had to grasp a tree branch to escape something that was trying to eat you? Our neocortex evolved to leverage the advantages of religion, and religious beliefs like deep ecology and social justice are a testament to that. They don't think of their beliefs as religious because they aren't supernatural, but, again, if you genuinely believe God is a real force in the natural world, then he isn't supernatural to you.

[Ken Shultz]

When fundamentalist missionaries came to the South Pacific and found the indigenous population praying to an idol, they said the natives believed in the supernatural. Believing that God spoke the world into being, that Jesus could walk on water, that unseen fallen angels could tempt us, or that God might perform miracles if you just pray hard enough didn't seem supernatural to the fundamentalist Christians. In their minds, that was the true natural world.

When progressives tell us that there's an amazing green utopia we could have, with wealth for everyone beyond our dreams, and that it could all be ours if only we really believed--and surrendered our property rights, our liberties, and used the government to harass, punish, and ultimately eliminate the unbelievers, they aren't much different from people from 6,000 years ago. It gives meaning to their lives, too.

It's just that people from 6,000 years ago didn't know what we know about plate tectonics and such, so they couldn't be expected to draw conclusions from data they didn't possess. The progressive religious fanatics of today, on the other hand, of seem to refuse to believe in some fundamental stuff. They don't believe in scarcity. They don't believe in the laws of supply and demand. They don't believe in myths like the goose that lays the golden eggs and why you shouldn't kill it. They don't believe in the boy who cried wolf.

Progressives may not believe that miracles are supernatural, but they believe in miracles.

[The Encogitationer]

So "Feelz Before Realz" as long as it's Theistic Feelz and "Supernatural" means whatever you want it to mean? Gotcha...

[Roberta]

What's wrong with that is how a recently founded country like Iraq can be said to own a long-abandoned-and-salvaged item like this, yet Hobby Lobby can't.

[Red Rocks White Privilege]

Because there's certain laws regarding the sale and distribution of antiquities, most of them passed with an eye towards the general plundering of these things that took place during the colonial era, some by governments but also by upper-class and upper-middle class tourists looking for souvenirs.

Iraq as a country might not be that old, but its history as a people and culture certainly is. Our whole popular conception of Mesopotamian religious worship is influenced by things like the Ziggurat of Ur and the Ishtar Gate.

[The Encogitationer]

As a Miniarchist Libertarian, I am all for private curation of antiquities and I even favor jurisdictions auctioning " offensive" statues to groups or individuals who may want them and whose proceeds can help knock a dent in government debt.

The problem in this particular case is that the tablet is plunderous spoils from Iraq War II, an Unconstitutional, senseless war which Bush started and Obama, Trump, and Biden have continued. Since we created the power vacuum that resulted in this artifact being plundered, and since it's sales is probably is bankrolling our Al-Qaeda and ISIS enemies, we really should send the tablet back.

Perhaps one day, Iraqis will discover the benefits of Private Free-Market curation, but that's really out of our hands until they'll listen.

[Nardz]

Theory is that the area of the Black Sea was formerly separated by land from the Mediterranean Sea, and a fertile valley populated with many towns/villages. Then, as the Ice Age was ending, sea levels rose and the Mediterranean overflowed the land bridge between Europe and Asia, turning the inhabited valley into a vast sea that wiped out all the villages in it.
Plausible story behind the common myth.

[The Encogitationer]

But the story is not not plausible for a global Great Flood. If it really rained for forty days and nights there would have been no way to know direction by the stars ( the compass wasn't used until 1100 C.E. by the Chinese,) and thus there would be no way to observe whether the whole world was flooded or not. And sailing around the world in 40 days and nights to verify the flooding of the whole world would have made Noah's Ark faster than Jules Verne's famous bet-winning balloon.

[Mike Laursen]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arizona-audit-ken-bennett-senate-liaison-threatens-quit/

"Ken Bennett, the former Arizona GOP secretary of state serving as the Arizona Senate Republicans' liaison to an ongoing audit of ballots, raised concerns about the audit contractors' lack of transparency in two radio interviews on Monday."

[Mother's Lament]

And yet you don't give a shit about the actual elections transparency. Aren't you really something.

[JesseAz]

The fact that Ken stepped down is pretty meaningless to anything related to the facts. He was more upset that the Senate re-issued subpoenas for the servers.

[Mike Laursen]

Yes, Ken, the Democrats are worse than the Republicans on spending. There are other yuge problems with the Republican Party, the yugest being its continued support for this bozo:

https://www.dailyherald.com/article/20210724/news/307249918

" In mid-May, partisan investigators hired by Arizona state lawmakers backed off their allegation that the state's most populous county had destroyed its 2020 election database. Confronted with proof that the data still existed, they admitted everything was there.

"Two months later, the tale lives on. At an event Saturday, former President Donald Trump presented the debunked allegation as a key piece of evidence that the state's electoral votes were stolen from him in 2020."

[Mother's Lament]

"debunked allegation"

How was it "debunked"?

Just because the Democratic Party and its agents declare it "debunked", doesn't make it so. It first has to be you know, actually debunked.

[Sevo]

Hey, if it's good enough for CNN, it's good enough for the steaming pile of lefty shit Mike!

[Chumby]

Twitter blocked all dissenting tweets regarding this. Ergo, debunked.

[JesseAz]

I like how the idiots focus on one fraction of the audit to claim the entire audit is fallacious.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

So, this strategy obviously did not work.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/565165-only-two-people-cited-by-tsa-for-mask-violations-have-agreed-to-pay

Only two people have agreed to pay fines to the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) among more than 2,400 incidents of noncompliance since a federal mask mandate took effect this year, according to new data provided to The Hill.

TSA said it has received referrals concerning 2,413 incidents of possible noncompliance and has completed investigations into 1,793 incidents.

The agency issued more than 1,690 warning notices and referred 38 matters for civil penalties. Only two individuals did not challenge their fines of $250 each, TSA said in response to a Freedom of Information Act request.

In yesterday's discussion, Claptrap discussed the idea of what sort of public health policies might be entertained in the case of a pandemic that would maximize voluntary compliance with mitigation measures, while minimizing social costs. And clearly the punitive approaches have not worked. Forcing, coercing, and mandating that people behave in a particular way only generated resentment and disobedience - sometimes justified, sometimes not. A better approach could perhaps be the use of incentives. Carrots over sticks. So instead of the government forcing businesses to close and fining them if they don't comply, the government could instead encourage them to stay closed with monetary incentives, and/or encourage them to stay open with mitigation protocols in place, again with monetary incentives.

Also for long-term public health, both in terms of physical health and in terms of the health of the Republic, education reform is desperately needed. We can't have a population that is so ill-informed and so disposed to succumbing to authoritarians and demagogues on all sides so much so that they willingly give up their liberty - either to authoritarians who promise that endless mask wearing will save them from COVID, or to demagogues who lie about the true risks of COVID and in turn lead to unnecessary death. We need more and better quality schools that first and foremost teach strong critical thinking skills, strong media literacy skills, strong analytical reasoning and scientific reasoning and statistical analysis skills so that people are not so easily fooled by liars with a big stack of numbers and graphs. Ultimately that is where it all has to go.

[buckleup]

Nope because even if we had all that most people would still not be able to engage in skeptical or critical thinking, nor would they be able to challenge the security state and its "experts". We don't live in a democracy or a libertarian country and our "betters" as one troll likes to say are holding all the keys and guarding all the doors (from a widely panned film). Hence all the mask wearing and covid fear despite the reality that few get immensely ill and ever fewer die from it.

We went through this in 1968 - 1970 and life just went on. The difference is there was no internet to stoke fear, and what passed for broadcast news had actual journalism with editors and producers who could figure out what was newsworthy and what was punditry.

Go live your life, take whatever precautions you feel are necessary, and stop telling others what to do.

[Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)]

We need more and better quality schools that first and foremost teach strong critical thinking skills, strong media literacy skills, strong analytical reasoning and scientific reasoning and statistical analysis skills so that people are not so easily fooled by liars with a big stack of numbers and graphs.

The root cause of the problems in the current environment is indeed a lack of critical thinking skills. Kudos for the acknowledgement that the correct answer to public health issues is education, not enforcement.

[Sevo]

Yes, but sarc might just as well ask for ponies and when he doesn't get them, THEN he calls for enforcement. The schools are run for the benefit of the unions; decent critical thinking skills would put the teacthers' unions out of business.

[Sevo]

Ooops; jeff, not sarc (assuming they are different people).

[Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)]

He was insistent yesterday that I have it out for him personally. I don't. This post today out of the blue seems to an attempt to clean up some of the garbage he dumped earlier in the week. I will give him that.

[JesseAz]

He does this all the time. Argues for 5 weeks using leftist talking points, then makes one pseudo reasonable post later so he can claim he never argued something. Overt called it out above.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

Well thank you for that.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Based on the chain of logic that's been presented to me, the only people dying of COVID are the stubbornly unvaccinated Neanderthals in flyover country. Why do we care?

[Ken Shultz]

The handful of Republicans who were negotiating the infrastructure deal with the Democrats have announced that they reached an agreement.

That doesn't mean any other Republicans will vote for it. In fact, that doesn't necessarily mean the Republicans who negotiated it will vote for it.

It just means that the Democrats are willing to bring it to a vote.

I remain hopeful that the Republicans will vote against it--and given that they've made the $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill contingent on passing the infrastructure bill, I think the Republicans should vote against it unanimously.

The Democrats can and will pass all of this spending--even if the Republicans vote against it unanimously. The only reason they want any Republican to vote for it is so that their members in purple and red districts and states can hide behind the fig leaf of bipartisanship come November of 2022, and the Republicans should deny them the benefit of that tiny little fig leaf.

. . . and if the Democrats pass this infrastructure bill in the Senate--over the no votes of 75% of the Republicans with the Republican leaders in the Senate voting no, as well? Then that bipartisan fig leaf will be the tiniest fig leaf evar!

[buckleup]

I hope you're right and they vote against it, but I have no faith in RINOs because they are clearly controlled by the majority party and the security state. This has been true for decades.

[Ken Shultz]

I think the most likely outcome is that at least four Republicans vote for it--Susan Collins, Murkowski, Mitt Romney, and Rob Portman.

If 46 out of 50 Republicans vote against it, the press will still call it "bipartisan", but if that's their definition of bipartisan, then the word means nothing.

If anything that the Republicans don't oppose unanimously is bipartisan, then the word means nothing. TARP was bipartisan because a majority of both parties--including the leadership--vote for it. If it's passed over the objections of the majority of Republicans and over the no votes of the Republican leadership, it may have enjoyed some quantity of Republican support, but it was not bipartisan.

[Mike Laursen]

“Bipartisan” has a fuzzy definition, just like a lot of other English words. Sorry that is hard for you to deal with.

[Sevo]

Hey, Nancy found two R(inos) to sit on her show-trial panel, so she could call if "bi-partisan" and that's good enough for idiots like jeff!@

[Ken Shultz]

Can you believe they're calling that bipartisan?

Too bad Justin Amash isn't still there, or he'd be in on that witch hunt, too.

[Chumby]

If we found one Jew that supported the Shoa it could be referred to as “Bipartisan German-Jewish support for the Holocaust” and that would be the dumbest sounding thing ever.
Maybe the word “majortisan” needs to be created.

[chemjeff radical individualist]

At this point I am hoping that the bill passes with 25+ Republicans supporting it, because at that point I want to hear Ken's latest rationalization on how all of these Republicans voting for it are not "legitimate Republicans", or how half of the Republican caucus voting in favor of it does not constitute "bipartisanship".

[Sevo]

As a steaming pile of lefty shit, of course you're hoping for some justification for your 'both sides' bullshit.

[JesseAz]

Jeff supports 1.5 Trillion in needless spending and wants to do so for political reasons.

Yeap.

[Bill Godshall]

According to CDC data and CDC estimates, almost HALF of all Americans have already had covid.

And according to a website that tracks covid reinfections,
https://bnonews.com/index.php/2020/08/covid-19-reinfection-tracker/
just 14 Americans who already had covid have been reinfected (and just 169 worldwide), which means that >99.9999% of Americans (and humans worldwide) who have had covid remain immune (aka Natural Immunity) (14/160,000,000=.0000000875).

Meanwhile, just 61,000 of 161 Million covid vaccine recipients in America have experienced a reinfection, for a reinfection rate of just .0003789, meaning that >99.9% of vaccinated Americans appear to remain immune.

In sum, about 50% of Americans still have Natural Immunity from covid, while vaccines have conferred immunity to another 25%-30% of Americans (as about 40% of vaccine recipients already had Natural Immunity).

So while 75%-80% of Americans remain immune from covid, left wing media propagandists, Democrats, their allies at CDC, and Big Pharma still deny the existence of Natural Immunity, and have proposed even more mask mandates and vaccine mandates.

The CDC's and Democrat's refusal to acknowledge Natural Immunity (which is the fundamental tenet of virology and immunology) has caused covid vaccines to be wasted on 65-75 Million Americans who didn't need them, and which could have been given to poor people in poor countries.

Fauci and Biden's CDC has committed massive public health malpractice, and should be held accountable.

[Foo_dd]

this move from the CDC is the second biggest fumble of the entire pandemic.

the first fumble was the complete incompetence in getting testing done in the beginning.... the first numbers we got were from doctors refusing to wait for the FDA to approve their tests....

while this is the second biggest screw up, it is dumber, because we have enough information to have seen the implications ahead of time, on this one. with this reversal, the CDC has 1) given those who are hesitant more reason to not trust them, 2) taken away a key benefit of getting vaccinated and, 3) distracted from a reality that is coming into clearer focus by reigniting all the infuriating partisan bickering.

here is what it is.... the people currently at risk are those who chose not to get vaccinated. their choice only impacts them. don't punish those who got vaccinated. don't try to save these people who refuse to lift a finger to save themselves. eventually, they either see those without vaccines being the only people dying, and they change their minds.... or enough of them catch it to where, when combined with the vaccinated, we have herd immunity. the CDC just worked to undermine that inevitable outcome and drag this whole thing out longer.

[Mike Laursen]

“their choice only impacts them”

Not so. The larger the unvaccinated population the higher chance of new variants arising.