Red State COVID vs. Blue State COVID

As the coronavirus reshapes daily life, two Reason editors crisscross the country and describe what they’ve seen.


Everyone experiences coronavirus in their own way. But as anyone who's traveled from a major city into the less populated suburbs, exurbs, and small towns knows, those changes have been very different from region to region. Some of those differences have been cultural and some have been political, as blue states and red states have responded to the virus in markedly different ways. 

As it happens, two Reason editors both recently moved across the country: Senior Editor Elizabeth Nolan Brown moved from an apartment in the heart of Washington, D.C., to a suburban apartment building in Cincinnati, Ohio, while Staff Editor Liz Wolfe moved from a house with a chicken coop in Austin, Texas, to a brownstone apartment in Brooklyn.

How have their lives and locales changed? How does New York compare with Texas, D.C. with Ohio, and Ohio with New York? Are any of these Americas the real America? We brought Brown and Wolfe together to discuss how politics, culture, commerce, food, and their own lives have transformed under the coronavirus.

From Washington, D.C., to Suburban Ohio

Elizabeth Nolan Brown, 11/9/20

I'm writing this from my home office—a legit room of its own, with four walls and a tall window and a big closet that I've turned into a sort of walk-in filing cabinet/mini-library. If I close the door, I can only distantly hear my husband on the phone in his own office, which looks out on a somewhat dingy but reasonably large balcony. This amount of space—there is not just a washer and dryer but a whole room of their own, too—is new and revelatory for us.

We spent the first six months of the pandemic (and years before) in a cramped one-bedroom, one-bath in a massive Washington, D.C., complex. Now, for several hundred dollars per month less than we were paying in D.C., we are renting a three-bedroom and two-bathroom apartment in Cincinnati, Ohio, not far from where I grew up.

Like a number of people, I've returned home temporarily during the COVID-19 pandemic. With no particular professional reason to be in D.C. right now, my husband and I decided to take this perhaps once-in-a-lifetime disruption of city life to spend some time closer to family and save money while we're at it.

Pre-pandemic, our D.C. life was heavy on social gatherings with friends, in-person professional events, and traveling by foot or by Uber. Our apartment building on 16th Street NW—with communal laundry in the basement and more than 2,000 others living in the building—was just a few miles from the White House but universes apart, with old people who had been living there for decades and some whole families packed snugly into studios and one-bedrooms. We were cramped, but not as cramped as some people around us, or many friends in newer and nicer places, and we had oversized windows, a market on the first floor, and a community patio. We were also used to working from home.

So, when the pandemic first hit, we weren't too stressed about our living situation, although we started avoiding the busy elevators right away (this was before almost anyone was wearing masks) and wiping down or waiting to handle things from the downstairs market or the package room.

We started connecting more with old friends, via texts and calls and group Zoom chats, and for a while I reveled in the idea that the pandemic revealed who you would hang out with if geography were not an issue. Having no way to get outside without going through masses of people and crowded streets once you did get out got old pretty quickly. And even though I liked working from home, I came to realize how much I also depended on having a third space—the Reason office or a coffee shop or bar or park—to get away to sometimes (also how much my husband is on the phone for work throughout the day). Those were small annoyances, though.

Ultimately, we fled—first to a temporary apartment in Northern Virginia, then to Cincinnati—because the building's periodic bug problem got to be too much for us. On our way out, we would learn that D.C.'s first documented COVID-19 death was a man in our building, a Franciscan monk who lived on our floor and had just moved in last fall. A mailroom employee also reportedly died of the virus, and another fell sick, The Washington Post reported.

Before the article, we had only heard rumors of coronavirus in the building, from someone who used to live there (had for decades) and had once helped me find our lost cat (who was just hiding in the apartment still). She moved out near the start of summer. A lot of other people did too, or at least it seemed that way as we were moving out: There was furniture piled in hallways, trucks in the side lot, painters putting fresh coats on the walls of empty units. The building hadn't told anybody about the very local outbreak.

But I'm not sure if that's why people were leaving. Maybe it was also just the stir-craziness, or the variety of tiny pests. Maybe they too were sad to go. It was a really splendid hotel once, in the '50s and '60s. On our way out, we left canned soda and unopened dry goods in the hall by the elevators, the customary signal something was up for grabs. It was quickly taken, along with a jello mold tin from a theme party, some small appliances, unused household cleaners, and many other things.

Ohio is a huge departure from our former life. We have a car now, and a lot fewer Amazon boxes. We have a toddler nephew who actually knows who we are. We take walks outside that don't require a mask (since the streets are so wide and since so few people walk around here anyway), make s'mores in my sister's backyard, and have movie nights with my parents. We are all careful about the coronavirus, but not obsessively anxious. In our complex, the only communal spaces we have to go through are outdoors. There is no package room.

When I need something that can't be bought at a store within walking distance, I have started remembering to not immediately turn to the internet. This is weird for me—more than a decade before the pandemic, I started getting groceries delivered and turning to Amazon for both bulk staples and specialty items.

Living carless in D.C., then New York City, then D.C. again, it was so much easier than trekking through city streets with arms full of groceries or making do with whatever was at the corner store. And Amazon paper goods and other household items subscriptions made group living much easier—you chipped in this much a quarter for toilet paper and dish soap, and no one fought over whose turn it was to get (or who forgot to get) those things.

Life in a smaller city or the suburbs was always more convenient than living in a major city. One of the (many) tradeoffs used to be lack of options when it came to food, drinks, and other consumer goods. That's definitely changed.

Now we hop in our car once a week and drive five minutes to Kroger, where in addition to every normal food imaginable, you can also find, say, a variety of kombuchas and every weird vegan meat, delicious seasonal beers brewed not far away, freshly made sushi, local pumpkin jam, and several brands of almond flour. This is where my family shopped when I was growing up, and it wasn't until sometime early last decade that it became more than just a greatest hits of the standard American diet. To me, it's representative of a larger shift in the areas around here and in suburbia writ large.

The neighborhood we're in now is definitely suburban, though still highly walkable—being able to dash out for something without having to get in a car was important to me. It neighbors the area where I grew up and much of my family still lives, situated just across Cincinnati city limits. I can walk to a spot where I kissed a floppy-haired boy in 8th grade, and a spot where I used to hide to smoke cigarettes when I smoked cigarettes. There's an outdoor pavilion across the street where all the old ladies would swoon over Peter Noon from Herman's Hermits each summer.

It's funny to me that I'm living in this particular area, having always pictured any eventual return to involve a cool neighborhood in Cincy proper, or perhaps right across the river in charming Covington, Kentucky. But the pandemic effectively nullifies the need to be near nightlife and city amenities. We just wanted to be near my family.

Even in the midst of a pandemic that has limited how much we go out and where, it seems undeniable to me that suburbs and small towns are simply better places to live than they were 20 or 30 years ago.

That's a result of many different trends, including movements to eat local and pay more attention to food ingredients, the rise of local breweries and people caring more about what they drink, the elevated social status of good cooking, and boomers' desire for walkable communities with things to do rather than far-flung spots they can retire to. All of this had produced even greater consumer choice outside major urban areas.

Now, within a few miles of my suburban Ohio apartment complex, I can choose from four local independent breweries (plus a number of other restaurants that at least keep a couple of local and seasonal beers on tap). I can get good Thai food right on my block and fast-food mediterranean fusion across the street. I can find decent wine and grass-fed, organic beef at the nearest gas station convenience store. I could find, were it not for the pandemic, free park yoga and a farmer's market. And in part because it is the pandemic and in part because these are just our times, most cultural or intellectual products I want can be accessed online.

I know these are all small or aesthetic things on their own. But being back here has really driven home how certain parts of the suburbs that used to, well, kind of suck don't suck anymore.

One downside? There are far fewer drive-in movie theaters around than when I was growing up. Bring back drive-in theaters! 

From Texas' Blue Island to a Brooklyn Brownstone 

Liz Wolfe, 11/10/20

Choosing between four different local breweries sounds great, Liz, but what if you want to get scowled at by a bartender in Bushwick while paying $16 for a four-pack?

That regrettably happened to me a few weeks ago, since my semi-homeward migration has been the opposite of yours. I went from a two-story, two-bedroom house with a large yard, replete with four feathered friends and a chicken coop, in Austin, Texas, to a smaller two-bedroom apartment in a Bed-Stuy brownstone in Brooklyn, New York.

I moved in June, right after New York had been hit hard by the pandemic. A city removing its freshly filled refrigerated morgue trucks is in no way appealing, but we wanted to be closer to my in-laws, recognizing that travel wouldn't be possible for people in their 70s for many months to come. Also, my husband got a new job—one in a Manhattan office building that will allegedly be used for working again, someday—and I've been working remotely for four years.

Many of our material comforts remain the same, by our own choosing. Our old house was small; we lived in East Austin a few blocks south of E Cesar Chavez St., in a speedily gentrifying, bar-filled historically Latino neighborhood close to downtown, so we never got a ton of space and were always fine with that. Can't miss space if you've never had it (or so the sad millennial mantra goes). Our New York apartment is about 600 square feet, but it has a large yard and patio precisely because we were willing to pay a premium for personal outdoor space if lockdowns happen again.

We have sacrificed some comforts, though, and I think the difference between Before Times New York and Pandemic New York would have been striking had we been here from the get-go.

Restaurants and bars here have more occupancy restrictions than in Austin, as expected. Still, the very existence of bars, even in modified form, remains comforting. The last time I was out at a bar—like, really out, smushed together with other people, not a sanitizer bottle in sight—was March 6, the day the music and film festival SXSW was canceled.

I went to a grungy dive in Austin, with my husband and a dear friend. We smoked cigarettes and drank Champagne Velvet beer and got chili cheese fries, acutely aware of the fact that our rituals might be gone soon. Every conversation around us was about the festival being canceled since it looms large as an employer of service-industry Austinites and a shot at a big break for musicians. Service workers wondered how they were going to pay rent for the next few months, whether their album release would be pushed back, whether this was an overly aggressive move or a way to avoid imminent disaster.

The start of the pandemic drove home the gap between people who were very plugged into the news and the Dazed and Confused–style creative layabouts who are a fixture of Austin's scene, as well as the many residents who migrated from smaller towns and consider Austin the biggest city in their orbit.

In late April, a person at my church wondered aloud about how the virus was transmitted, not grasping the issues of personal proximity, ventilation, and aerosol transmission that had already become apparent. Other acquaintances dismissed my mid-March concerns about the virus as silly, a red-state skepticism that was present even in a quite liberal city.

Among other things, it reminded me that returning to a place like D.C. or New York was important to me, wanting to spend more time with writers and other friends in creative industries—especially if regular travel to the East Coast became much less regular.

Pandemic New York has some silver linings despite all the terribleness. People are clearly relishing being outside, together, in any form. For months now, Herbert von King Park, near my house, has been the place where people congregate and unwind, empty bottles of beer and wine, play fetch with dogs, and deejay random sets in the absence of real clubs and venues. At Fort Greene Park last weekend, you could see each group's tailored level of caution—some picnic blankets had a dozen people sitting close together, at others a group of four would all be wearing masks, and tons of configurations were in-between. Most groups were joyous, having animated conversations and delighting in the fall weather.

Pandemic New York is better than I thought it would be, and I'm glad we weren't spooked by New York naysayers. There's still a lot to love.

I do see what people mean when they say the things that drew them to this city are no longer here: Without fine dining, packed concert venues, sticky diner booths and free coffee refills, the ability to smoke a blunt with a stranger in the park, or, more broadly, the ability to be fully carefree in the presence of—sometimes because of—other people, why live packed like sardines in a place with high taxes and seemingly endless construction?

Still, museums have opened back up, masks required, and they're quieter and less packed than before. I went to a Studio 54 exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum last weekend, an NYC-by-the-numbers data art exhibit a few weekends back, and still have a MoMA P.S. 1 visit looming. I cycled all the way up to the Cloisters and ate cannolis nearby; I cycled to the Bronx to eat Colombian; to Corona, Queens, where I ate empanadas from a street vendor and chased down a guy selling cotton candy; to Astoria for Greek food; to Brighton Beach for chebureki; to Greenpoint for donuts and milk. It's a bit funny that my life—one of cycling and gluttony and drinking beers in my backyard with friends—has remained pretty similar despite moving.

The unsucking of the suburbs is such a cool trend. It's hard for me to judge how recent it is; do you have any idea? Does it change your allegiance to cities, D.C. in particular? Although I left Austin, I could imagine myself boomeranging between Austin and New York for many years to come, spending a few years in each but never quite committing to one or the other.

It sounds like you're describing something adjacent to the oft-criticized rise of "AirSpace"—how coffee shops and bars and coworking spaces have begun to share the same curated, anesthetized, tidy, well-lit, good-coffee, fast-internet millennial aesthetic, with certain markers of convenience and poshness, no matter where they are.

So many people talk about this as if it creates a heterogeneous, colorless world without acknowledging how many formerly disconnected parts of the country now have richer cultural offerings, especially when it comes to food. In other words, it's easier to be a vegan in Memphis now.

Maybe places aren't as differentiated as they once seemed, at least for now, when some of their character has been stripped away by distance from the people that make them interesting. I wonder how much will return, or whether we'll need to just get used to some of this sameness.

Do State Authorities Have Any Idea How to Handle COVID? 

Elizabeth Nolan Brown, 11/12/20

I miss scenes like you describe in the parks, all the spontaneity and weird joy of NYC. And I'm glad to hear you guys have some of your own outdoor space. (The most I had in my first Brooklyn apartment was a fire escape fit for two if you scrunched.)

Your whole New York life so far seems very lovely and I'm happy to hear you're finding ways to enjoy it despite the circumstances. It must feel weird and a little frustrating, wanting to devour your new home and getting only little tastes of it. But now you get to experience the city's charm unfolding over time. In a way, you get to prolong your tenure of being new in NYC. That's a great thing to be if you are the sort of person who likes the city, and you seem to be.

We were back in D.C. during election week and it was refreshing to see friends and drink in backyards with colleagues. And one thing D.C. definitely has over Ohio is decriminalized marijuana and an easy way to buy it. For now, I'm just stocking up whenever I'm back.

Washington didn't seem to have too many pandemic-related restrictions happening when we visited—outdoor and indoor dining going on in a lot of places—though everything was boarded up because of election-riot-potential panic. But now it looks like new restrictions are rapidly ramping up everywhere, including in New York and Ohio since we started writing this earlier this week.

Cincinnati public schools just shut down in-person learning again. And Ohio's governor gave a speech quoting Churchill, promising more restrictions on social gatherings, and imploring people not to meet in groups of more than 10. I get it: The whole situation is a mess, with cases rising, cold weather coming, safe outdoor socializing limited in general, and people traveling and gathering for the holidays, But you can't tell people not to have more than 10 people in their own homes. You can't enforce that, anyway. And things like 10 p.m. curfews just seem likely to make places more crowded while they're open.

I think the authorities really have no idea how to handle this. I also suspect they know they don't have the power to. They're not going around knocking on doors and counting heads. People are going to do what they're going to do. (Which leaves law enforcement lots of room to use it as a pretence for selective harassment and shutdowns.)

My extended family mostly lives nearby each other. Many are planning on getting together for Thanksgiving, though some family groups are sitting this one out, and everyone understands.

As for the new aesthetic sameness, the fact that you might be able to find a few of That Brooklyn Look coffee shops in any city now might mean something negative from a bird's-eye view, but if you're in a city where each one previously looked like the set of Friends and served basically nothing but scones to eat (or was a Starbucks), it's an improvement. When I lived in Lafayette, Indiana, for a bit, there was exactly one "hipster" bar (back when that was still a word people used), the Black Sparrow, and I loved it because it reminded me of places in my Brooklyn neighborhood. There's also this tendency to romanticize whatever was before, as if every new mason jar beer joint now is replacing some place rife with unique local character, when a lot of times it was just a boarded-up auto shop or an old Red Lobster.

Finally: I'm glad you brought up SXSW. I was scheduled to go for the first time this year, to be a part of a panel on FOSTA, the poorly conceived sex-trafficking bill I've written about frequently.

The week before, my husband and I were at an event in Indianapolis, and everyone was still eating buffet meals together indoors and shaking hands and generally going about business as usual, both within the conference and in the outside world. But I was scared about going to Austin: What if there was an outbreak and we all got quarantined there indefinitely? So I was somewhat relieved when I read from my Indianapolis hotel room that the whole event was being canceled.

It was also the first thing that really drove home how big this was about to get, and made the rest of the isolated conference seem a bit surreal. Then Indiana declared a state of emergency while we were there, and Tom Hanks had it, and sports were shut down… In many ways, the SXSW cancellation was my aha moment.

Do Places Still Matter?

Liz Wolfe, 11/13/20

I had forgotten you were planning on speaking at SXSW! In an alternate universe, I could've taken you to Sam's Town Point, the best honky tonk in town, with cheap beer and whiskey and old folks dancing and biker dudes telling tall tales about their adventures. Some other year, I guess, if such things still exist the way they used to.

Your point about the prolonged newness of my move to New York has occurred to me, too. Since I'm especially hesitant to make new friends right now, it feels like I get the joy of retreating into old friendships, ones that are largely cozy and familiar and easier to navigate. But at some point in the future, that will change. And my version of New York will change with it. I felt this way when museums opened back up in September and October, several months after moving here, and the universe of available activities expanded slightly.

Yet now things are closing back down. Ohio and New York's incoming rules sound similar: no gatherings of more than 10 inside a private residence, and 10 p.m. curfews for bars and restaurants.

What concerns me is that this might shift social gatherings indoors, despite the limits on indoor gatherings. There have been several nights where I've been out with friends and, after dining outdoors, we contemplate our next move. Paper-bag tall boys in a park as rats scurry around our heels? Palomas at that Lower East Side bar that does them so well? A scotch nightcap at our friends' apartment?

Part of that decision is typically made based on a glance at the clock and a quick calculation of how much time we have left until bars close, at the ungodly early hour of 11 p.m. When that state-mandated closing time shifts up, how many people with higher COVID risk tolerance will say, well, let's go to someone's apartment? With the weather turning worse, it was already bound to happen. But this seems like it has the potential to exacerbate that problem.

Like with so many things, this is a tale of unintended consequences and the inability of central planners to forecast how people respond to restrictions. The ever-changing restrictions will also blindside restaurant and bar workers, many of whom have put considerable effort into adapting to previous rounds of rules and restrictions.

It's hard not to feel bad for the bar on my block, which opened in December 2019 and was hit with pandemic restrictions less than four months after opening. Like so many other Brooklyn and Manhattan restaurants, the bar extended seating into the street, and the ugly barricade boxes were transformed into gorgeous planters. The patio got a roof and removable walls in the last few weeks to protect bargoers from the elements. They're doing everything they can to adapt, but it still might not be enough to stay profitable.

I'm horrified by how many service industry folks—and people in other high-contact industries that can't be made remote, like tattooers—who have worked incredibly hard throughout this pandemic might descend into undeserved pauperdom as the virus and the state work in tandem to shut things down.

I see this reflected in the disparate effects between my New York and Texas social circles. In New York, many friends are white-collar workers who can work remotely from home, whereas a striking number of friends in Texas have encountered loss of income or significant work disruptions that arise from working in jobs where you can't transition to remote. In Texas, I know nannies and pastors and animal control responders and bouncers and barbacks whose jobs have changed dramatically since March. And some jobs no longer exist at all, of course.

It's strange to think about what all this was like when it started. I had a naive, starry-eyed sense—shared by others, even libertarians—in the early days that we could lock down briefly and build out testing capacity. I thought the short-term pain borne out lockdowns would lead to better ability to control the virus's spread and get people back to work.

I recant, and I really should have been more cynical from the start. None of that happened. Most people don't test themselves regularly, regardless of their economic status or geographic location. People in most parts of the country have encountered some form of work disruption, with many going on unemployment for the first time in their lives. Everyone's been affected by this in one way or another.

The good news in all of this, if there is good to be found at all, is that human beings adapt and persevere. We are shockingly resilient. We started this to talk about the differences between the places we both live now, and the places we used to live in.

But maybe the real story is that we're untethering ourselves from places, becoming temporarily unmoored and disoriented and a bit more socially awkward, but refining our sense of what matters to us in ways that will prove long-lasting.

Or maybe these changes won't stick, and by March 2022, we'll be gearing up for SXSW season all over again, happily packed into that characteristic mixture of sterile conference rooms and grimy concert venues—just like we planned, only two years late.

The Dark Winter Comes to Ohio

Elizabeth Nolan Brown, 11/16/20

Re: your last two paragraphs: It's important to be able to find ways to live, and some measure of happiness or contentment, whether things are transformed for a while or whether they get back to normally relatively quickly. That's what we're talking about here ultimately, how we've both been lucky enough to be able to experiment in a pretty big way with what that means right now.

That's probably especially true considering the months ahead of us. In the days since we started this correspondence, the coronavirus has been getting real in a lot of places where it previously seemed more remote.

I've heard of many more cases and exposures to cases around my hometown and family in the past two weeks than at any point since the pandemic started. A few at a wedding, a few through school or workplaces. My former school is shutting down in-person classes again, after parents kept sending kids with the virus to classes or to sports events. Most of the people I knew here had some work interruptions when the pandemic started, and many still do (while that's very rare among people I knew in D.C.).

A few of my family members are changing their behavior again in response to the rising cases, but many aren't. I'm worried about people's health and livelihoods.

On a silly personal level, I'm slightly bummed I'm back here for the whole holiday season for a change and yet so many of our typical extended family traditions are on hold. But we're plotting new ones. My sister and I decided last night to commit ourselves to the gargantuan task of baking some healthy-ish Christmas cookies that my mom doesn't hate. At least we've got the miracle Kroger.

NEXT: Jews and Catholics Ask Supreme Court To Stop NYC Religious Services Ban

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  2. I’ve heard of many more cases and exposures to cases around my hometown and family in the past two weeks than at any point since the pandemic started.

    That is also true in my case. I also live in the Midwest and I am now hearing about many more people getting the virus, far more than back in March or April. Now I think is when the pandemic is *really* starting for the Midwest. And frankly most people here don’t seem to care, at least as far as outward appearances go. They wear masks indoors, but only because they are forced to, and you are lucky to see people wearing masks over their noses. About a quarter of the time, the masks are below the chin or just absent entirely. Other than that, there’s barely any social distancing at all, barely anyone using the hand sanitizer bottles at stores, it’s just going to be a big mess.


      1. I am continually amazed by what is now considered a “radical individualist”.

        1. People are not taking precautions against covid, that means there will be more people contracting covid, that means more lockdowns and hospitalizations, that means a big mess.

          Radical individualism precludes making rational deductions?

          1. “People are not taking precautions against covid, that means there will be more people contracting covid, that means more lockdowns and hospitalizations, that means a big mess.”

            Lefty assertions =/= “evidence” nor “arguments”.

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          2. You do realize that everyone (near enough) is gonna get this, precautions be damned

            1. Don’t scare me. I’ve been told getting COVID is a death sentence.

            2. Nihilism aside, no, everyone (near enough) is not going to get this. People thought the same things of polio and AIDS. This isn’t our first time at this particular rodeo.

              What’s different this time is that the disease itself has been pulled into our current partisan divisions and some people think that it’s a hoax (because they were told that by authorities they trust). So now wearing a mask or not wearing a mask is a political statement. Which is amazingly sad given that this disease spreads by air, is easily acquired, and has already killed nearly a quarter million people in this country already.

              But, like polio, AIDS, and other similar diseases, you can greatly increase your chance of not getting ill by following the advice of the medical experts and being responsible for yourself *and* your impact on those around you. In another 4-6 months there will be a vaccine and large numbers of people will be able to avoid the disease entirely. Just like my polio vaccine scar on my arm helped me avoid polio as a kid.

              1. Oh right, it’s only political because Trump made it so. If Clinton were president and threatened a national mask mandate, we’d all happily nod our heads and comply.

                “But, like polio, AIDS, and other similar diseases, you can greatly increase your chance of not getting ill by following the advice of the medical experts…”

                Cite must have fallen off,

                1. When Trump announced the CDC’s recommendation to wear masks, he stressed that it was voluntary, then said he wasn’t going to wear one. That’s when mask wearing became political. If he had said something along the lines of, “It’s voluntary, but I’m going to wear one, so please wear a mask so we can get thru this,” it wouldn’t have become political. Or at least, not as political as it is now.

                  1. A virus is very small. The holes in cloth are very large in comparison. Wear your mask if it makes you feel better but leave me alone and I won’t talk toward you.

                  2. The CDC decision… which wasn’t based on science or rational information. That’s why he went against it.

                    The CDC and much of the scientific limb from his branch of government actively sought to undermine him at every turn. They thought that good Americans were too god-fearing to understand their abuse of science for political purposes.

              2. Polio vaccines do not leave scars, you must mean smallpox…

                1. The injectable polio vaccine most certainly left a tell tale scar on the deltoid. But that went out of widespread use here in the early Sixties in favor of the more effective oral vaccine.

              3. “People thought the same things of polio and AIDS. ”

                No, they didn’t.

              4. Now do the flu. Or the common cold.

                How many people do you know that have *never* got the flu or the common cold?

                COVID is spread in the same fashion as the flu and the common cold.

                HIV usually requires bodily fluids; polio is usually a fecal-contaminated transfer but can be transmitted through saliva.

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            3. That’s just not true.

              There is a vaccine that has just been proven effective enough that it’ll stop covid once they can make enough.

          3. People are not taking precautions against covid

            This claim is always made, yet never substantiated.

            1. Case in point–salons and barbershops, who have made the effort to take precautionary measures and have no evidence against them of being a locus for community spread, are being forced to shut down because the Karen governors have deemed them “non-essential.”

              To the working-class people who are employed there and have bills to pay, their job is not non-essential to them. The only way this would be justified is if the government officials decreeing these shutdowns have to go without a paycheck for as long as the shutdown takes place. If “we’re all in this together,” then they should suffer through it, too.

              1. Instead, they get lobbyists to take them to Hawaii

            2. it’s unrefutable. It’s like believing sacrificing people will appease the gods, anytime it doesn’t work is because you didn’t kill enough or you didn’t kill the right ones. Except instead of just people think business’s and people.

            3. I suppose all the maskless people crowding into chain restaurants and bars across the midwest were just figments of the imagination? I can provide cites all day long; I would think you cultists would realize that by now.

              Here’s one. One of hundreds. I picked this one because I traveled to OK not too long ago on business, and was pretty shocked by the insanity I witnessed in that state. And now, what do you know, they are having a massive outbreak. This isn’t hard, Red Rocks. You have previously demonstrated that you don’t know how to read a study, but this is easy stuff to understand here.


              1. fuck off and mind your own business you snitching coward. Go tattle on Anne Frank.

                1. I love how mad you guys get when I post citations.

                  1. Especially ones that don’t say what you claim they said.

                    1. That people are actively not taking covid precautions. My cite demonstrated that irrefutably.

                    2. That people are actively not taking covid precautions. My cite demonstrated that irrefutably.

                      What it didn’t demonstrate was that the massive spike in cases was their fault.

                    3. Keep those goalposts moving. Harder to hit that way.

                    4. Keep those goalposts moving. Harder to hit that way.

                      You’re certainly speaking from experience there.

                      I’m going to continue to laugh my ass off that your holy mask totems failed.

                    5. And you will be wrong, again. I can tell you that I saw practically no one wearing masks in OK outside of a few places in OK City.

                    6. And you will be wrong, again. I can tell you that I saw practically no one wearing masks in OK outside of a few places in OK City.

                      And I’ve seen practically everyone wearing masks in my own blue state, which has seen a massive spike in cases. Welp.

              2. Dude sorry to burst your bubble, but there’s a 99+% chance Covid aint gonna kill you. While you and the other trolls here keep tilting at windmills, other people who aren’t blubbering pussies will go out and continue to live their lives. Feel free to live in fear, that is your choice to make and no one cares if you make it.

                1. It turns out I’m affected by things that don’t just immediately happen to just me.

                  1. So are the people whose lives were destroyed using your fear and desires for obedience.

                    1. And the people who die, or have complications, or have their business go under once everything shuts down again? What of them? Just wear a fucking mask, wash your hands, and stay out of people’s spaces.

                      Not asking a lot here, for a guy supposedly willing to die for his country.

                    2. That is such a load of shit. Masks are not going to prevent new shutdowns. The only thing that will do that is people asserting their rights and refusing to go along (or legislatures stepping in which could conceivably happen in a few states).
                      Why do you think people wearing masks is going to prevent more government imposed shutdowns? Most people have been wearing masks and this is still happening. People in most of Europe have been required to wear masks for months, and the same thing is happening there. There is no either/or with masks and shutdowns. The shutdowns/lockdowns need to stop, period, no matter what else happens because the side effects are just too destructive.

                    3. The governor of Texas stepped in and told the pussy Democrats in El Paso to sit down and shut the fuck up and the courts backed him up. We’ll see if things get worse or better there. Austin hasn’t gone draconian again yet. You can tell they want to, but they despise being told no.

                    4. Caving in to totalitarian demands to appease pussies like de espresso only leads to more draconian orders, and more death and destruction.

                2. Dude, sorry to burst your bubble but your full of B.S. You pulled that number out of your butt.

                  Firstly, you don’ t know who “you” is in this instance. That “you” could be a 75yo dude with diabetes or high blood pressure. It could be a chain-vaping obese WoW player. You have no idea. The chance of dying depends on more variables than you clearly account for.

                  Secondly, it doesn’t have to kill you to mess you up. 25% of hospitalized individuals are showing permanent issues including brain damage. People are getting blood clots and having mini-strokes. A good number of people are going into the hospital without pre-existing conditions and acquiring them because of this virus.

                  Thirdly, even if you never get this virus, it’s filling up hospital ICUs with sick people. Hospitals are diverting patients in the hardest hit areas of the country and COVID doesn’t go away over night. So these overrun medical facilities are less able to handle people that need attention for other issues like plain old heart attacks, cancer, and car accidents. So even if you don’t get COVID, it can kill you if your life depends on an ICU in a hospital overloaded with COVID patients.

                  Finally, if you do get it and end up in the hospital, the bills are going to eat you alive. A few weeks in ICU is going to consume your insurance coverage and leave you with a savings-destroying bill.

                  But sure, don’t be a “pussy” and act like you’re immune, we could use a little darwinian enema in the gene pool anyway.

                  1. Chain vaping obese WoW players have been self quarantining since 2004.

                    1. “Chain vaping obese WoW players have been self quarantining since 2004.”

                      LOL! winner!

              3. So, you don’t actually have a substantiation that it’s the fault of the Hugenots, just a hand-wringing article from the local news media.

                It’s even more hilarious that you’re sperging out about Oklahoma when your home state just went on lockdown, and King County’s cases are soaring despite their magical mask totems.

                You have previously demonstrated that you don’t know how to read a study

                You mean the one you cited that didn’t actually say what you claimed it said, and indicated that no clinical study had shown that masks prevent community spread of a virus?

                1. King county is still doing a helluva lot better than N. Dakota.

                  And you are simply not smart enough to have an argument with at this level. The single sentence you quoted from the study (which concluded that masks reduce spread by 60 to 80%) was from the “Previous Research” section, where they summarize previous research on the topic and identify inconsistencies or gaps in the record which justify them doing another study on it. It’s customary.

                  This is exactly what we call the Dunning-Kruger effect. You are not knowledgeable enough on this topic, or reading research in general, to know what you don’t know. So you scan the article, searching for the single sentence, single phrase that will confirm your preconceived notion. All the while not realizing you are doing it within a piece of research that wholly contradicts your position.

                  It’s hilarious. But it’s also embarrassing for you. It’s like when a little kid farts in public or something. It’s funny, but not funny when someone who should know better does it.

                  1. King county is still doing a helluva lot better than N. Dakota.

                    Not really.

                    And you are simply not smart enough to have an argument with at this level. The single sentence you quoted from the study (which concluded that masks reduce spread by 60 to 80%) was from the “Previous Research” section, where they summarize previous research on the topic and identify inconsistencies or gaps in the record which justify them doing another study on it.

                    The study was conducted in a contained, limited environment and admitted that there was no evidence that wide mask use prevented community spread. That’s not proof that “masks work,” it’s proof that they work in controlled environments.

                    This is exactly what we call the Dunning-Kruger effect.

                    Claiming a study says what it didn’t actually say, and using that as proof of your argument, is the definition of Dunning-Kruger.

                    It’s hilarious. But it’s also embarrassing for you

                    What’s even more embarrassing for you is that your magical mask totems have failed.

                    1. King county is a fucking disaster. Thanks to the likes of Jay Inlslee and Jenny Durkin.

                  2. This is exactly what we call the Dunning-Kruger effect. You are not knowledgeable enough on this topic, or reading research in general, to know what you don’t know.

                    HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAHHAaaaahaha…. haha… HEH… hehehe… pot… hehe… kettle.. hoh…he

                    Who is we kemosabe?

              4. You say you traveled to Oklahoma, but then post an article about Omaha.

                I can’t remember the last time I saw a person in public without a mask here in Albuquerque, yet we’re having a big surge.

                1. Then there’s a good chance the surges are taking place in smaller, private circumstances like large family dinners with people outside the family. Things like Halloween, birthdays, Thanksgiving, etc.

                  If I wear my mask in public religiously and maintain social distancing, I greatly reduce my chances of spread. But I throw all of that away if I attend my family reunion in my sister’s back yard.

                  1. Then there’s a good chance the surges are taking place in smaller, private circumstances like large family dinners with people outside the family. Things like Halloween, birthdays, Thanksgiving, etc.

                    More unsubstantiated claims without real, actual evidence.

                    If I wear my mask in public religiously

                    Yeah, it’s a religious totem, all right.

              5. In the early days Covid was mostly in NYC. Then all of a sudden mobs of disease-ridden liberals fled the city and went to Florida and other places, spreading disease.

                So don’t talk down to the rest of us, you disease spreading liberal. You’d better get back to eating Biden’s ass, Fauci confirmed that is the most effective way to protect yourself.

              6. What does Omaha, Nebraska have to do with Oklahoma? Seriously, no stadium in Oklahoma would have HUSKERS in the end zone as in the photo on the linked page.

              7. Those cloth masks that people are wearing like badges of status. They do nothing. Woven materials have varied and wide pore diameters that are largely ineffective at protection. And when worn for a length of time they do nothing to inhibit an infectious person from distributing the virus. Where do you think the exhaled virus goes? Collects in the mask, as it gets saturated with moist breathe, it then becomes nothing more then a rest stop for virus. Like standing under a tree in rain. Mightnwork initiallt, but youre going to get wet.
                Nonwoven surgical masks offer more protection due to the much smaller pore size, but most people wear them way too loose and for way too long. They get saturated as well and the survival time of the virus is long enough to be very problematic. Those masks become little ‘hot spots’ if someone is infected….ever exhale, every touch, etc. its disgusting.
                Medical professionals dispose of those masks after use, not wear them all day.

                We are being lied too constantly. This mask information was readily available and discussed earlier in the summer, but then it became no longer politically proper.
                Masks are nothing more then show, and do little to nothing to prevent the spread…they may even make it worse. But masks offer a psychological crutch to the sheep, making them think they have some control. We dont, no control….this virus is way too contagious.

            4. “This claim is always made, yet never substantiated.”

              Yep, It is an assumption.

              When pressed health officials are starting to admit that they have no idea where most infections – upwards of 75% – came from.


          4. If we have to give up every part of life for COVID….what is the point? Why live if you’re not able to actually live?

            1. Dead people don’t have liberty.

              1. Yes, everyone who gets the coof dies.

                1. Not what I said.

                  1. Then explain why these precautions shouldn’t just be made permanent. There is and has always been some chance that any time you go out you may be carrying some pathogen that could kill someone.

                    1. At the end of the day it really does come down to a utilitarian calculation. As an extreme example, if it was some airborne Ebola virus, then yeah, that is a scary prospect and I think there is even a libertarian case to be made for some type of lockdown in that extreme example. Covid is much more marginal, which is why I argue that these coercive lockdown measures are too much, BUT, it is also not just “the flu”, and individuals ought to be encouraged to be respectful towards others with regards to the virus.

                    2. It is just the flu, parrot

                    3. And I am respectful. If a place requires masks, I will wear a mask or go somewhere else. I’ll give people space if they seem like they want to maintain their 6′ distancing. I don’t want to annoy people even if I don’t think they are being rational.
                      But there needs to be an end to this. Attitudes need to change. The pro-mask propaganda has been so pervasive and over the top that I don’t see how it will end unless people start to say “no”. Seeing people’s faces is important, physical contact is important. Not seeing everyone as a potential disease vector all the time is important. I worry about the social and psychological damage from all of this just about as much as I do the economic and personal damage directly done by the forced closures and lockdowns.

                    4. “flu” = Influenza. So no, not the flu. Different virus entirely.

                      2018-2019 influenza season deaths: 34,200
                      2020 coronavirus deaths so far: 248,000

                      Not even close to the flu.

                    5. Shawn_dude, take your two digit IQ somewhere else with your bullshit numbers. They’re obviously gamed by your masters.
                      Covid19 is yet another coronavirus, like many colds and flus. The only difference between this one and averages is the coverage and measurement it’s received. It’s all theater.
                      Now hide under your cot, shut the fuck up, and never show your face again unless you want to catch a beating.

                    6. I would like to see the beating.

                    7. 2018-2019 influenza season deaths: 34,200
                      2020 coronavirus deaths so far: 248,000

                      Now do 2017-2018 flu deaths.

                      “On 10 February 2018, Fortune reported that influenza in the United States was killing up to 4,000 Americans a week…In the first week of February, deaths from influenza and pneumonia were responsible for one of every ten deaths in the US, with 4,064 from pneumonia or influenza recorded in the third week of 2018, according to CDC data. The 2017–2018 flu season was severe for all US populations and resulted in an estimated 959,000 hospitalizations and 61,099 deaths. This is the highest number of patient claims since the 2009 flu season. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, during the 2017-2018 season the percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia and influenza (P&I) was at or above the epidemic threshold for 16 consecutive weeks. Nationally, mortality attributed to P&I exceeded 10.0% for four consecutive weeks, peaking at 10.8% during the week ending January 20, 2018. Another estimate (September 2018) attributed more than 80,000 US deaths to this strain of influenza.

                      A decade earlier we had another flu pandemic…

                      In 2009, the H1N1 “swine flue” was a considered a pandemic…it ended up being a non-event (unlike in 2017-18, when 60-90k Americans died from the H1N1 flu):

                      The (H1N1)pdm09 virus was very different from H1N1 viruses that were circulating at the time of the pandemic. Few young people had any existing immunity (as detected by antibody response) to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus, but nearly one-third of people over 60 years old had antibodies against this virus, likely from exposure to an older H1N1 virus earlier in their lives. Since the (H1N1)pdm09 virus was very different from circulating H1N1 viruses, vaccination with seasonal flu vaccines offered little cross-protection against (H1N1)pdm09 virus infection. While a monovalent (H1N1)pdm09 vaccine was produced, it was not available in large quantities until late November—after the peak of illness during the second wave had come and gone in the United States. From April 12, 2009 to April 10, 2010, CDC estimated there were 60.8 million cases (range: 43.3-89.3 million), 274,304 hospitalizations (range: 195,086-402,719), and 12,469 deaths (range: 8868-18,306) in the United States due to the (H1N1)pdm09 virus.

                      Additionally, CDC estimated that 151,700-575,400 people worldwide died from (H1N1)pdm09 virus infection during the first year the virus circulated.** Globally, 80 percent of (H1N1)pdm09 virus-related deaths were estimated to have occurred in people younger than 65 years of age. This differs greatly from typical seasonal influenza epidemics, during which about 70 percent to 90 percent of deaths are estimated to occur in people 65 years and older.

                      What have you done in your life to prevent spreading the flu? You know, when you might have infected someone with a disease that may leave them dead or debilitated? Will you be wearing a mask and social distancing forever, in case you accidentally kill someone by spreading the flu? Or is COVID the only disease for which we should be willing to wear masks, social distance, etc.?

                      “The flu is different!” Of course it is, but it still kills thousands of people every year, and some years it kills a lot more than that. It spreads pretty much exactly the same way COVID is spread. Like COVID, the flu may have long-term side-effects (“A number of studies have linked influenza to an increased risk of heart attack and stroke, and scientists have theorized that the inflammatory response triggered by the flu can fuel the development of atherosclerosis, a contributor to heart and artery disease.”) The flu is not COVID, but neither is COVID airborne Ebola. It seems to me that someone dying of the flu is no more or less tragic and undesirable than someone dying of COVID.

                      And all the things we’re supposed to be doing to “protect our neighbors” from COVID are the exact same things we could do to protect other from the flu. But we never have, despite the fact that the flu kills tens of thousands of people in this country every year. After COVID, I wonder if people will still care enough about their neighbors to keep wearing masks to prevent the spread of flu and other airborne viruses? Or is COVID the only disease special enough to warrant that?

                  2. Dead people don’t have liberty.

                    1. Yeah, I think the courts disagree on that one. Jeffy is such a maroon.

                    2. But at least they can vote for it if needed…

                  3. But liberty is taken from everyone regardless of whether they get sick and regardless of whether they die. Locking up young healthy people who are at virtually no risk from the virus is depriving them of useful life years, their best years even, and locking up grandma might extend her life by some amount, but if she’s not able to see her grandkids again before she finally croaks of something else what has really been achieved? I’ve already lost one person in my life who I didn’t get to spend more time with because of coronavirus restrictions. How many more must I forfeit before the cure is worse than the disease?

                    1. “the cure is worse than the disease”

                      The people who are saying this haven’t even given much thought to the cost of the disease. Maybe they’re just annoyed by the inconvenience of being asked not to kill others by passing on a deadly virus.

                      When the hospitals fill up and people start dying from lack of access to medical facilities, what happens to the economy then?
                      When more and more people are unable to work because they’re sick?
                      When insurance companies start going bankrupt to avoid massive losses in payouts?
                      When essential workers get sick and miss a month of work?
                      Most people live paycheck to paycheck in this country. They’re all one big illness away from bankruptcy.
                      Imagine an economy where everyone over 50 years of age stops going to work and a large number of younger people with pre-existing conditions or unhealthy lifestyles join them.

                    2. The neurotic fantasies of dimwitted hiveminds does not equal reality, shawn

                    3. You’ve been singing this emotionally manipulative tune for 8 months now, and now that cases are spiking nationwide–NOT just in places that didn’t have mask mandates and gathering restrictions before now–you’re still parroting the same line.

                      If hospitals are filling up and cases are spiking in places despite all these measures being in place after several fucking months, guess what–the measures didn’t work. Fancy degrees can’t decree a virus into submission.

              2. Then they should have quarantined at home. That they didn’t was them expeessing their liberty.

                1. Not everyone has the luxury of staying indoors all the time. There are so-called “essential workers” after all.

                  1. …and they won’t be exempted THIS time, either.

                    So, clearly, these lockdowns are just petty flexing by tyrants and fascists you happen to support.

                  2. >>essential workers

                    God forbid the Ruling Class go without for six minutes

              3. “Dead people don’t have liberty.”

                Do prisoners?

          5. “People are not taking precautions against covid, that means there will be more people contracting covid, that means more lockdowns and hospitalizations, that means a big mess.”

            I love how your implication is to blame the “not taking precautions” (which is unproven) but not the “means more lockdowns”

            Those lockdowns aren’t automatic. They are caused by people exercising their choices as much as the people exercising their choices about masks.

            1. Eh, they kinda are automatic. You are expecting government is not going to automatically coerce people when faced with an opportunity to do so? I suppose in some alternate timeline that is possible, but in this one, it pretty much always happens. So if people don’t act voluntarily and remove the rationale for government to use its coercive powers, that gives government an opening for doing so that will be cheered on by the Karens out there.

              1. Just give Hitler Czechoslovakia and we guarantee peace in our times

              2. So, succumb to fascism willingly? Good plan. Maybe they will liquidate you last.

              3. Shorter Jeff: “Give me Utility or give me a government mandated safe space!”

                Fuck off slaver.

            2. Yes, lock downs will be put into place by any governor, as they see headlines of “Hosptials conducting triage; bodies overflowing morgues” as bad for their re-election campaigns.

              This is called acknowledging reality. You can feel free to yell at the clouds, demanding they form the shapes you like, but that will not get you the results you want. If you want actual liberty, actual unbroken economic activity, then you will take precautions and encourage your fellow citizens to do the same. Because no one is getting to go to the mall and take pictures with Santa once the hospitals start rationing care.

              1. “Hospitals conducting triage; bodies overflowing morgues”

                “This is called acknowledging reality.”

                Haha. Ok, Karen.

                1. Let’s revisit this in a fortnight.

                  1. You know we’ve heard this fear mongering for SEVEN FUCKING MONTHS NOW.

                    1. That’s what makes it so funny–“just you wait two weeks, everything is going to go through the roof!” Every single time.

                      Except it already has in this case, and being unable to point to a direct source of that spike with real, actual evidence, they resort to conjecture-filled media articles in a desperate effort to avoid the moral collapse of their Science!-based policies.

                    2. Two weeks to flatten the curve!

                      I seriously think they believed that at the time. But when they saw people *actually* complied, they just couldn’t give up the control…like every…single…power they’ve ever had.

                    3. Yeah, I’m also sick of it. So let’s just wear a mask and wash our fuckin’ hands. The vaccines will be coming soon, but this winter is gonna suck. I’m very jealous of people in New Zealand, Vietnam, Singapore, etc. who are all living their lives basically normally. All because their citizens do the responsible thing instead of fretting over not looking like a macho man with an exposed mouth and throat.


                    4. I’m very jealous of people in New Zealand, Vietnam, Singapore, etc.

                      DoL likes places where they killed of dissenters years ago, like Vietnam.

                    5. Masks clearly are not working, though. Why keep pursuing a failed policy?

                      And maybe, just maybe, New Zealand had decent numbers since they are not, you know, near much of anything?

                    6. So have the folks in El Paso Texas that have to double the number of mobile morgues in the area to accommodate the dead.


                    7. So have the folks in El Paso Texas that have to double the number of mobile morgues in the area to accommodate the dead.

                      Which isn’t any sort of proof that “masks work,” if those people were already wearing masks and social distancing.

              2. This is called acknowledging reality.

                Reality is that your magical mask totems and gathering restrictions failed, and blaming the heathens for those failures, and the inability of SOOPER SMART PEEPLE to predict the future isn’t going to bring the number of cases down.

                1. If you think people in Oklahoma or N. Dakota were taking precautions, then I’ve a bridge for sale.

                  1. Don’t blame the failure of your mask totems and gathering restrictions in your own backyard on people in Oklahoma and North Dakota.

                  2. The numbers in metro, rural, red, blue, etc have proven without a doubt that the diversity of lockdowns, masks, restrictions, etc, have done absolutely nothing to control the spread. This is easily seen in the public numbers, like at, where the virus has clearly followed the exact same local and state outbreak trends across the country, just at different start points and peaks. They only outliers are southern states that have a much flatter, longer peak which is typical for other respiratory viruses relative to climate, and the other outlier is ny/ct/nj metro which had the extreme peak seen nowhere else. This is all public information easily seen by anyone with half a brain.

                    1. Viruses transmissions/effects are stratified by latitude: Hope-Simpson. Places like the NE US and most of Europe get it early in the year with a more pronounce spike, while subtropical regions get a later, more spread out but smaller peak.

              3. “This is called acknowledging reality.”

                No, it is you giving a pass to the people you agree with. Whether it is because you are scared, or because you secretly refuse to be lumped in with those deplorables.

                It is a fact that Cops illegally stop and make unreasonable orders on minorities. If that cop then shoots the person for disagreeing with it, is your advice to the rest of the country going to be, “Look, we can’t change the police. Just do what they tell you!”

                This is all notwithstanding the fact that lockdown lockdown lockdown has done nothing to stop the virus. I live in California where our Governor made it VERY CLEAR that he was setting up a “SLOW AND DELIBERATE” reopening plan in order to control the spread of the virus. And guess what? Despite all the sheeple following his plan, and all the constant mask wearing, he has to throw his SLOW AND DELIBERATE plan out the window. He has changed it because IT DIDN’T WORK. His tiers of opening failed. His health equity reviews didn’t work. Nothing worked.

                So here you are defending TYRANTS whose edicts aren’t even effective as if they are some force of nature, and shitting on people who want a choice. Some libertarian you are.

                1. Not to mention that Newsom went to a party without wearing a mask.

                  If Newsom doesn’t actually believe that his own policies work, why should the people of California?

                2. Fuck you, Overt. What I am actually defending is for individuals to CHOOSE to be RESPECTFUL towards others WITHOUT coercion. But instead we cannot have this discussion, instead the discussion is either WE MUST FORCE YOU TO WEAR A MASK, or WE’RE GONNA BE HUGE ASSHOLES IN PUBLIC.

                  How about this:

                  No mask mandate.
                  STRONG encouragement to wear a mask.

                  Is that even too much for you to stomach?

                  1. Sorry but this is not what Chipper was arguing, so erm, no, Fuck YOU.

                    I want to see you DEFEND the people who choose not to wear the mask. Just as you would defend a Nazi’s right to speak. And here is a hint, “Just do what the despot says or he’ll stomp on your neck harder” isn’t defending freedom. It’s giving a pass to someone limiting our liberties because you are an unprincipled, selfish jerk who really isn’t bothered about limiting other peoples’ liberties as long as they are liberties you don’t like.

                    1. Sure, you ought to have the right not to wear a mask in indoor spaces in public, just like you ought to have the right to be an asshole in public. I’m not going to support your decision, I’m going to apply social pressure to get you to change your behavior, I’m going to support private businesses voluntarily choosing to enforce a mask requirement on their own property, but I’m not going to sic the goons of the state after you. Get it?

                      Now, will you support encouraging others voluntarily to wear a mask in indoor spaces in public, even if it’s not strictly mandatory, as a courtesy and sign of respect for others who may be vulnerable?

                      “Just do what the despot says or he’ll stomp on your neck harder”

                      That is actually not what I’m saying. I guess I have not explained myself clearly enough. I am saying that individuals ought to voluntarily choose to be respectful and act decently towards each other, because if we don’t, then the Karens of the world will go running to the state to demand enforced compliance to THEIR version of “respect and decency” which will probably not what we would have in mind in our voluntary obligations. That is what I am saying.

                    2. Chemjeff, you’re the asshole

                  2. Me? I’d prefer the extension of AIDS era laws that make knowingly passing on a potentially deadly disease a crime.

                    If conservatives refuse to be responsible for the consequences of their freedom on their own, we could pass a law.

                    1. Oh, you’d like consequences now?
                      You’re going to die painfully.

                    2. Seriously, folks: look at Shawn, chemjeff, de espresso- they’re not going to stop using the state to ruin your life. It is who they are. They refuse to live and let live.
                      They, the people sitting behind those screens, need to be stopped.
                      There can be no free society with them and their ilk in it.

                    3. You mean like the flu, which kills 20-65,000 people a year regardless of the presence of “flu shots”? Or any other infectious disease?

                      That’s the problem with you cotton-soft, hyper-risk averse bitches–you actually think life’s problems can be legislated away with the stroke of a pen. You have no fucking clue how the real world actually works, and are so used to getting your way that you can’t emotionally process it when it doesn’t happen.

                    4. Hmmmm, someone can be legally culpable for having sex, sharing needles, or otherwise bleeding on someone else’s open wound while knowingly having a deadly disease.

                      Yep, that’s totally the same thing as breathing near someone.

                      And if mortality rates are similar to the flu, why not make simply getting the flu a crime? That’ll teach em!

                  3. Pedo Jeffy, fuck off. Seriously. You’re a collectivist crap sack and pedophile enthusiast. Which are just two of the MANY reasons you are so completely loathed here, and probably everywhere.

          6. We took the precautions recommended. They seem to have done nothing.

            Now there are more precautions recommended.

            Maybe we do not think you do not have a good track record.

            The worst effects of the 1918 pandemic happened in just three months of the first year – despite taking all the same precautions.

            1. The cope from DOL and chemtard in this thread is off-the-charts hilarious. We’ve had these policies in place to varying degrees throughout the country for MONTHS–if they actually worked, wouldn’t the Science!-loving blue states and other Scientism-devoted areas like Ohio be seeing almost no case spikes whatsoever, when far fewer people were wearing masks seven months ago?

              If a small minority of people not wearing masks is enough to send cases SOARING statewide, you’d think that would be irrefutable proof to these doofs that a piece of cloth is useless at stopping a microscopic, highly adaptable virus. They really do see these things as holy relics that can in no way fail; it’s always the fault of the unbelievers.

              1. You keep asserting, without evidence, that mask use and other precautions have been followed by the majority. That is not the case in large swaths of the country, hence the rural area led outbreak currently.

                1. Or those rural areas are just having their first outbreaks now. And as can be seen in the cases of many states and countries, mask mandates don’t stop those outbreaks and there is no reason to believe they make them less severe.

                  1. Mask mandates don’t stop outbreaks; they slow them down.
                    Eventually, if you’re in an enclosed space with someone long enough and they have the virus, you’ll get it. So social distance, don’t linger in public, enclosed spaces, wear your mask everywhere outside your home, and wash your hands. This will reduce your chances of getting a bad disease but it won’t reduce them to zero.

                    The chance of you getting the disease from someone in your own household is very high. If a member of your household thinks masks are for pussies, well, you might as well double your medical insurance while you have a chance…

                    1. Mask mandates don’t stop outbreaks; they slow them down.

                      Except they didn’t, and cases are spiking nationwide. Whoops.

                    2. Where’s your proof that there’s any significant spread in public settings?

                    3. Your advice is shit. So just stop.

                    4. What’s “Long enough?” 20 minutes? An hour? 4 hours?

                      Are you talking N95 masks or pieces of cloth?

                2. You keep asserting, without evidence, that mask use and other precautions have been followed by the majority.

                  You keep asserting, without evidence, that the massive spike in cases nationwide is due to people that haven’t worn masks.

                  That is not the case in large swaths of the country, hence the rural area led outbreak currently.

                  The majority of cases in urban counties = “rural area led”

                3. “That is not the case in large swaths of the country, hence the rural area led outbreak currently.”

                  If you took a MOMENT to reflect on this statement, you would realize how absolutely stupid it is. If masks were sooooo important, why did the infection take so long to get to the rural areas? All those mask-wearing cities got it despite their mask wearing subservience?

                  1. Seriously?

                    You’ve never heard of population density?

                    1. Seriously, youve never heard of looking at the numbers yourself and realizing that your talking points are complete and utter bullshit?

                      Trends and peaks of this virus have followed almost identical paths irregardless of lockdowns, mandates, compliance, locality. The only difference has been start and peak times. Nothing is working to control it…nothing. This is blatantly obvious in the public numbers. Educate yourself.

                4. Urban areas were hit first (last spring and winter) because they have more world travelers. Rural areas are just getting hit now.

                  1. It’s a bullshit claim anyway, because the largest spikes are still in the urban areas. DOL has no evidence that these spikes are “rural-caused,” he’s just making shit up because he and his yuppie tard friends can’t process their mask talismans failing.

                    1. The early numbers in ny/ct/nj are still the highest peak. Shame they didnt clean the public transportation vehicles between shifts like the rest of the civilized world.
                      But it appears clear now that nyc may have hit close to herd immunity, because they are seriously lagging behind in this second wave hitting the east coast. Time will tell if that helps, or enough immunity has lingered to keep another wave from hitting nyc. It sure as heck isnt the restrictions, because theynhave worked nowhere else.

                5. You keep asserting, without evidence, that those measures are effective.

                  Without that evidence you have no basis for questioning – much less assuming – their absence.

                  Pure bootstrapping.

          7. Losing track of your socks Pedo Jeffy.

        2. There are different varieties.

      2. I know, right? Who gives a shit about anyone else anyway. If I give you the covid, it’s your own fault for having the temerity to go grocery shopping. Fuck you I have a right to cough all over you and give you whatever illness I feel like.

        1. Describe what your view of “the pandemic is over” looks like

          1. zero cases anywhere for a year?

            1. Wow. There’s not even zero cases of smallpox anywhere for a year. What you are describing is indistinguishable from “never”.

              1. Smallpox, yes. The virus is extinct in the wild. Let’s use polio as an example. The number of cases are down to less than a hundred a year on the planet.

                However, both smallpox and polio have hard, long lasting vaccines with multi-decade (multi-century for smallpox) programs dedicated to wiping them out. Given that coronavirus can re-infect (even if subsequent infections are weaker), that means a vaccine will not be permanent or 100% effective. That shifts the demand from “it’s impractical” to “completely impossible”

                1. Influenza used to be a lot stronger too. There’s some evidence that some diseases, like the flu, mutate into weaker forms over time. Maybe the coronavirus will do that too.

                  Success with the coronavirus probably looks like the flu. Roughly 34K deaths a year in the US from influenza, even with widely available vaccines. We’re at 248K deaths from COVID and the year isn’t up yet. We’ll probably be over 250K before the end of the week.

                  1. You progs are just wet to the knees at the prospect of wiping out individual rights under the guise of public safety, aren’t you?

                  2. 240k deaths of infected people. How many of them would be alive today ifthe ‘Rona never got out of Wuhan?

                    Excess deaths in a time period is the number that matters.

                  3. No, not true. Influenza isnt weaker….indoor air quality is just that much better due to clean heat in the winter.
                    Kinda important to have a healthy respiratory system and cardiovascular system when trying to survival a respiratory viral assault.

              2. Well, the Karens have yet to provide an example of when we are done.

              3. I guess we’ll have to keep these emergency powers going.


                Yes. There have been zero naturally occurring cases of smallpox for several decades. Zero. None.

                1. Good thing those lockdowns really did the trick. Oh, wait……

        2. Try it, asshat.

          1. Now you understand why some of us get irritated when we see people not wearing masks in indoor spaces.

            1. The one good thing that will come of all of this is people will never again get a pass for spreading contagion with excessive coughing in public spaces. But I have not seen an unmasked person cough in grocery store in 8 months.

              As usual, you are overreacting like a little scaredy baby.

              1. they do pull their masks down to sneeze though

              2. Coughing, sneezing, yelling, loud talking, wearing the mask below your nose, standing closer than 6 feet… all effectively increasing the chance of spread in your local grocery store.

                Cold and flu season is here now. I bet the coughing in that store goes up, too.

                1. Where’s your evidence that any significant amount of spread has ever happened by casual contact in a grocery store?

                2. Loud Talking. You really are contemptible.

            2. Oh I get what makes you so irritated. It is that you don’t understand what personal responsibility is. Which is why, despite claiming to be a libertarian, this irritation exposes a deep anti-libertarian impulse rooted inside you.

              The fact is that *you* have stated that you have a risk factor. That is on you. It isn’t my fault, and it isn’t the fault of that guy going into the store. It may not be your fault either- maybe you have asthma or some congenital heart disease- but it is still your problem. Anything people do to help mitigate YOUR problem is a wonderful boon that you should be grateful for. But they don’t OWE it to you.

              Now, we live in a glorious world where millions of people generally work in their own self interests to make our world more comfortable, and safer. You are not entitled to that. When they do that of their own free will, you should be grateful. And- if you really are a libertarian- when they are FORCED to do this on your behalf, the least you should do is avoid judging them for chaffing under that coercion.

              You have mistakenly looked out on the tamed wilds and assumed that it is “nature”. A safe world where infection doesn’t kill you; where the cold doesn’t freeze you; where food is plentiful and affordable; where heat and cool are on demand; these things you take for granted. And this is why when you see people failing to create that world for you, you act as if they are actively harming you. They aren’t. They are merely declining to provide something for you that you have come to expect. Because you are entitled.

              1. Well, Overt, I suppose it depends on how you think strangers ought to be treated. You have a right to be a complete and total selfish asshole jerk to anyone you choose. But you oughtn’t do that as a general rule, and when in public among strangers, the polite and decent thing to do is to act respectfully towards others. Because others ARE entitled to the self-respect that you believe you are entitled to yourself. As a libertarian I don’t think that behavior should be compelled by the state. But it should be encouraged and certainly not mocked. Again this goes back to the humanitarian vs. brutalist concept of liberty. The humanitarian concept treats liberty as a way to promote human flourishing. The brutalist concept treats liberty as a way to indulge one’s own personal desires without fear of retribution, and to hell with everyone else. I am very much in the humanitarian camp. Treat others respectfully, and encourage cooperation to that aim. Where are you?

                1. “You have a right to be a complete and total selfish asshole jerk to anyone you choose.”

                  This is what is so hilarious, Jeff. You are the selfish jerk. YOU.

                  The natural state is us walking around and taking care of our selves. That is NOT selfish. It is just the default condition. Cooperation is a social good, but it is not the default condition. When you EXPECT someone to deviate from that default condition, you are the one making the demand.

                  How is it SELFISH for a healthy person to decline to wear a mask? Is it selfish for someone 10 feet ahead of you to walk through a door without waiting to hold it open for you? Mind you, I think it is absolutely polite to hold open a door. It is polite to wear a mask.

                  “As a libertarian I don’t think that behavior should be compelled by the state. But it should be encouraged and certainly not mocked.”

                  Oh please. Everything you DO gives a lie to this statement. You endlessly deride, judge and even mock people who don’t want to wear a mask. Don’t deny it, I have seen you do it for MONTHS. And for MONTHS you have given a pass to every aspiring despot calling for mask mandates. Your every word says that YES, you do think it should be compelled by the state.

                  I wear a mask everywhere I go, but I am on this board every day defending peoples’ right to choose and arguing against a state that has taken on unimaginable powers over the individual. This isn’t a healthcare board. It is a libertarian board- dedicated to discussing how governments should stay out of our lives. And yet EVERY time this subject comes up, you have a limp-wristed “the state shouldn’t compel” followed by long condemnations of the rubes who don’t do what they compel, excusing the governments of doing what they are going to do, and explaining that it is just everyone else’s fault that the governor’s foot is pressing down on their neck.

                  It is absurd how transparent this is.

                  1. He’s a “radical individualist” until someone does something he doesn’t like.

                  2. Yes I think people ought to wear masks when in indoor places. No I don’t think it should be compelled by the state. Every single time this subject comes up I have been completely consistent on this point because that is what I believe. OF COURSE I am going to encourage people to wear masks. I also encourage people to brush their teeth, and hold open doors for strangers, but I don’t think those activities should be compelled by the state either. Just admit it, you are opposed to wearing masks. I don’t believe that you wear masks in public. Why would you? Isn’t that just bowing down to the tyranny of the state? After all, as you said, it’s SELFISH for other people to even request, without coercion, for you to wear a mask. How dare they! You have every right to be an asshole in public and by golly you are going to be the biggest asshole on the planet and tell the world what liberty means to you! Have I got it about right?

                    1. We need to agree on what selfish is. If I have $50 am I selfish if I decline to give it to a homeless person? For selfishness to mean anything, you need to define what principle carries the expectation that I give that $50 to the Homeless person (or wear the mask), such that declining to fulfill that expectation is selfish.

                      “I don’t believe that you wear masks in public. Why would you? Isn’t that just bowing down to the tyranny of the state?”

                      It might shock you to learn that I also pay taxes, and fix up my front yard. Yes, indeed, I follow the law even when I think the law is unjust.

                      But let me be very clear to you how seriously I take this. I am writing this from an extended stay hotel room. I am in that room because I am self isolating. This is because I evacuated a person to a hospital who then tested positive for COVID. This is costing me, out of my pocket, nearly a grand so that my kids can keep going to school and so that my wife can live what is left of a normal life in this hyper paranoid, failure of a state.

                      I follow the fucking rules and I am on this site railing against them- precisely because people like you are enabling leaders of failed policies to fail again and again. If you want to see people wearing masks, come on out to California. There is a room right next to mine. And you will see exactly the same spike in COVID cases among mask-wearing Californians that you are seeing with your people out east.

                    2. Overt is correct about California.

                      Let’s look at your ‘selfish’ situation from a logical perspective. You are indoors, masked up and moving through the store. You encounter an unmasked individual. From their perspective they feel comfortable risking an encounter in the store without a mask. You, on the other hand, get irritated that they are not following along with what you perceive is the necessary precautions. Yet, you are not in danger, you can maintain a distance that is comfortable for you. You can move to another part of the store entirely. If they get too close for your comfort you could ask them to distance. All without the perception that they are intent on doing you harm. You are protected, they are free to go about their business. If there are too many unmasked people, even though an encounter with someone with the disease needs to be an extended encounter for it to travel to you, you could of course leave. Inconvenient, yes. For you. But clearly a choice you would then make that would have no effect on anyone else’s choices you are encountering while allowing you to feel safe again.
                      Is that not a more civil approach than being a snarky Karen about the whole thing because someone else is not doing what you want them to do?

                    3. So you are for proselytizing?

              2. There is nothing “libertarian” about having a deadly virus and passing it on to others in a public venue because they shouldn’t have been around you if they didn’t want to get it. There is no element of you being responsible in that scenario. Being responsible means people know their status, know if they should quarantine, and take care not to spread the virus to others. The other libertarian principle is to sue people who spread the disease for lost wages and medical bills.

                You seem hung up on the whole “force” aspect of this. But government force isn’t necessary if people behave responsibly with their freedom. Declaring that you refuse to act responsibly with yours merely underscores the need for force.

                If you get the disease and pass it on, you are responsible for the people that it impacts. Your victims are not responsible for knowing who you are or your health status.

                1. It’s a freaking virus my dude. It has occurred in the gazillions in every square inch of this world since history began.

                  What a stupid slippery slope you dance on.

                2. “a deadly virus”

                  Less deadly than chickenpox in an adult.

                  Your ignorant hyperbole at least explains the absurdity of your position.

            3. Nobody is not doing that.

              Even where I live, one of the rural red areas full of bitter clingers on flyover country, people wear masks indoors.

            4. So you should be quarantined until you represent a zero risk to every other person on the planet? I’d prefer not to see how that plays out in the real world.

              1. Or, and this is just me spitballing here…

                You quarantine for the two weeks needed to see if you’ve contracted the illness and, if you have, you following sound medical advice from infectious disease experts. And if not, you put your mask back on and venture out into the world until there’s a vaccine and we can return to some semblance of normalcy.

                There is never zero risk. You are only responsible for doing your due diligence in reducing the risk you pose to others.

                1. Except the mask mandates failed.

                2. Due diligence? For a virus?

                  You could contract it in a thousand different ways every day. Have you tested yourself in the last 6 hours?

                  If not, you should probably by quarantining yourself.

                  1. Going to post this link again.

                    Because everyone needs to realize that we STILL really do not know how this disease is actually passing from person to person.


            5. OK, Karen.

            6. Yes Jeff, the alternative to wearing a mask in public is people running up and coughing all over you.

              Fat, progressive and stupid is no way to go through life.

        3. I realize you’re terrified because your high obesity makes you more likely to die from this, but not everyone has to worry that they might actually suffer the health consequences of being a disgusting hamplanet.

          Stop wolfing down snack cakes and go out for a jog once in a while, fatty.

          1. Believe it or not, my conception of liberty is not “all about me”. There is this humanitarian vs. brutalist divide among libertarians, perhaps you have heard of it.


            Now I totally understand why those in the brutalist camp, such as yourself, would always view liberty from the self-absorbed self-centered narcissistic point of view. But there are those, like myself, who view liberty as a means to free all individuals, not just as a means to get all the stuff that I can for myself.

            1. Your health not being my problem is not ‘brutalist’. You are a coward. You can’t make other people responsible for your freedom. That does not meet any definition of the word freedom.

              1. You did not even try to learn. You had a real opportunity there.

                1. Quite the opposite.

                2. Jeff, why do you bother with sock puppets? We all know who you are.

                  1. Watch out, he’s an X-Man.

            2. go report some smoking establishments to the health department you fucking busybody church lady clown.

            3. Jeff-

              Their description of a brutalist describes pretty much every “not me” person I have met. A tribal person who sneers on others who don’t agree with them. Sounds like Jesse. And you. *shrug*

              1. I don’t know why you bother with these branch covidian clowns Overt it’s like taking out charts and graphs to explain to the Nazi’s that Jews are actually productive members of German society.


                  The Swedes are part of the DEEEAPEE state now too!

                  1. Sweden’s case rate is up 4x from its spring peak but the death rate is 10x smaller…and it is going down as we speak.

                    1. Yeah, so far looks like normal seasonal variation.

            4. It’s okay, chemtard, you can acknowledge that your Scientism faith might not have all the answers when reality smacks you in the face.

              1. Pretty ironic for you cultists to lecture people in believing things based on faith.

                You mean the much worse second wave that is happening that the actual experts all predicted would happen?

                Trump: “It will go away in April, like a dream.”

                1. Even more ironic that you can’t accept that your magical mask totems failed.

                  1. “And where there are massive case spikes, no one in the media appears to be really all that interested in digging in to *why* the spikes happened”

                    Unless there happened to be, say, a Trump rally locally, in which case it gets blamed for every single case.

                    We already know that participating in a “mostly peaceful protest” conveys immunity from the virus.

                2. In what way is it “much worse”? What place, that had a significant outbreak this spring is seeing a worse one now?

                  1. In what way is it “much worse”? What place, that had a significant outbreak this spring is seeing a worse one now?

                    NJ has reported more cases in the past seven days than at the spring peak.


                    My employer’s hospitals peaked at 85% capacity in the second week of April, but are currently at about 20%. But even though the case counts have spiked (and are showing signs of having flattened), the hospitalizations are increasing much more slowly, and waaaaay more slowly than the spring.

                    I wish I could tell you what the hospital census looks like in the rest of the state, but that portion of the dashboard has been down for weeks.

                    1. And where there are massive case spikes, no one in the media appears to be really all that interested in digging in to *why* the spikes happened, asking pointed questions, and demanding evidence. Take El Paso, for instance–it’s gotten almost all the media attention for this cycle, but no one seems all that curious as to why the case load in this particular city is so much larger than just about anywhere else in the country, even in comparison to other urban areas that are going through spikes of their own.

                      Is it because no one is wearing masks, as some would assert? Is it because of the relatively open border between Juarez and the city, and there was a lot of cross-contamination just as flu season kicked off? Is it a stronger strain, like the one brought back from the World War I front that really kicked the Spanish flu here into overdrive (which also, incidentally, happened during the normal flu season as well)? Is it just bad fucking luck with no logical or scientific explanation?

                      What’s the medical profile of the people who are getting sick and dying in El Paso–Did they wear masks when they went out, or were they maskless most of the time? Are they mostly older and overweight, like the vast majority of deaths have been? How does the hospitalization/ICU/death rate compare to other areas in the region, and other areas in the country? More severe, less severe, what?

                      The complete lack of curiosity by the journalist class, in favor of fear-mongering sensationalism to get clicks and eyeballs, is the most egregious shortcoming here.

                    2. So far the data looks like what happens in flu season. Infections go up some and flatten out and stay steady for a while. That seems like what’s happening in most of Europe and in at least the NE US. Very different from the sharp increases followed by sharp decreases that we saw this spring in the hard hit places.

                    3. The complete lack of curiosity by the journalist class, in favor of fear-mongering sensationalism to get clicks and eyeballs, is the most egregious shortcoming here.

                      Holman Jenkins over at the Journal has been harping on this since…. January, give or take.

                      Is it because of the relatively open border between Juarez and the city

                      This is not a question to be asked in polite company. Doing so might make people realize that “WHY CAN’T WE BE NEW ZEALAND!!?!?!?!!?” is a really stupid fucking question.

                    4. Doing so might make people realize that “WHY CAN’T WE BE NEW ZEALAND!!?!?!?!!?” is a really stupid fucking question.

                      “Just wear the mask!” is a lot easier to chant and doesn’t require any complex thought, unlike investigative research and reporting that doesn’t begin with the conclusion first and work back from there.

                3. Those same experts also said: we are still in the first wave, then they said we’re actually in a 3rd wave, so which one is it?

                  Remember when Fauci said don’t wear masks, they don’t do shit?

                  Now go back to eating Biden’s ass you bitch.

            5. “always view liberty from the self-absorbed self-centered narcissistic point of view.”

              This is what you do, then you pose as virtuous by claiming it’s out of concern for others, altruism, and the common good.
              As Overt said, it’s transparent as hell.

              1. Don’t you have some more progressives to murder?

                1. There’s no such thing as murder if there is no legitimate government or law.

            6. Yes, we know you believe in collective rights, not individual rights. You’re a progressive.

        4. Use curbside pickup, make arrangements for someone healthy to do your shopping, Amazon or other home delivery services….

          1. Don’t you understand? Liberty is the masses of quaking fascists getting to do whatever they want to at your expense.

        5. Need mommy?

        6. You’re going sqrlsy level retard. No one is asserting a “right to cough all over you”. No one did in 2019 either. Grow up,

        7. I suspect that you did exactly that for your entire life up until the last few months.

          Unless you’re going to tell us all that you’ve *always* worn N95 masks in public at all times, so as to make significant effort to not accidentally transmit any influenza that you might have contracted unknowingly and not yet show symptoms? That you have never gone to work with the sniffles. That you never left your house, and isolated yourself from your family if you felt even a touch of fever?

      3. They’ll wish they listened to their betters when they’re alone and dying.

        1. You’re a funny fag. Quite the swishbuckler.

      4. “A CDC update Wednesday says individuals are more likely to survive the coronavirus after contracting it. The health agency says if you have the virus between the ages of 0 to 70, you have a 99% survival rate. And if you’re over 70, the survival rate is nearly 95%.”
        The idea that healthy young people should panic over this bullshit is irrational.

        1. Shawn_dude is indeed irrational.

    2. Here in the 10th circle of hell (New Jersey), you know what I’ve noticed? NOTHING. In my county, there hasn’t been any spike in cases, and there’s been 249 deaths FOR THE ENTIRE PANDEMIC.

    3. Now I think is when the pandemic is *really* starting for the Midwest. And frankly most people here don’t seem to care, at least as far as outward appearances go.

      Uh, every single state is having massive spikes, you idiot.

      1. Not to mention most of the “smart” European countries who locked down and enforced social distancing and masks…

        1. FWIW, Lock downs have no effect on Covid mortality. The various plots of deaths per million and lock down severity are veritable sneeze plots just dots more or less forming a circle of zero correlation.

          1. Oh I know. Most of the “studies” the lockdowners and maskers point to are controlled lab tests, not real world tests. Lockdowns and masks are NOT helping. So far, the only thing that DOES seem to help is being a tiny island nation that is only accessible by boat or plane, that prevents people from traveling into your borders.

            1. Reason thinks open borders will help a lot.

              1. So does Jeff. As long as all those illegals wear masks.

      2. it’s cold and flu season. infectious airborne diseases spread faster with less sunlight and more people indoors breathing the same air.

        this is why flattening the curve all summer was a dumb idea. it’s going to make fall and winter much worse.

        1. It’s also why “stay at home” is so fucking dumb–this is a virus that notably chews through the obese in particular like a buzzsaw, and the fact that we have a decades-long, growing epidemic of fatasses has arguably contributed more than anything else to the number of deaths. I’ve seen reports of state governments closing parks, but they should have been, all damn year, hammering home that this virus preys on the unhealthy, and encouraging people to get out to the parks and open spaces, where social distancing is easy as hell, in order to get the weight off and build up their immune systems.

          Getting outside, getting exercise, and getting in shape will do more to ensure you have a healthy immune system that can actually fight off illness, particularly respiratory illnesses, than a piece of cloth over your face will. How many fatties got sick and died despite wearing the face diaper, all because they thought it would protect them and they didn’t need to worry about losing weight?

          1. Under age 70 99% survival rate per the CDC including the fatties.

    4. stay scared pussy.

    5. “Now I think is when the pandemic is *really* starting for the Midwest. And frankly most people here don’t seem to care, at least as far as outward appearances go.”

      Well unfortunately you are wrong.

      As you can see, Ohio spiked in deaths (cases cannot be compared due to the lack of testing) back in April, like much of the country. It is now having a smaller spike.

      Now that may be different than wherever you are, but in Ohio and most places, the virus is not “really starting”- it is going through the same second wave that most states are going through.

      And this is important, because we’ve already seen the worst, and seen that lockdowns didn’t work. So people like yourselves insist that THIS time it is REALLY going to be bad, so THIS TIME we need to lockdown again.

      1. the hospitals will be overwhelmed just wait two weeks overt.

        1. Just like communism, REAL lockdowns haven’t been tried yet…

      2. It’s also flu season, when there is always a spike in deaths from this type of disease. I suspect this “spike” is going to level out in the usual seasonal pattern. We’ll have to wait a bit to see if that bears out.

      3. There is definitely an upper Midwest hot spot. Apparently, they maximized the amount of dry tinder by locking down before they had any sort of spread thereby avoid some controlled spread this summer when the risk of getting really sick is lower. There have been three hotspots in the US. The first two followed the well known Hope-Simpson work on latitude stratification (different regions have different patterns of transmission based on the environment), this last one is likely the various Gov. Karen’s maximizing the deaths of the vulnerable.

        1. Which is exactly why I said in May or so that I really hope the lockdowns aren’t effective. Looks like they might have been effective enough to make things worse this winter.

    6. Suddenly anecdotal evidence is Science!? Fuck you, jeffy.

      1. Was I writing a peer-reviewed journal article? Umm no. So fuck you.

        1. Was I writing a peer-reviewed journal article?

          That doesn’t make your imagination a valid substitute for reality.

          1. Just to piss Jeffy off more, I will remind everyone about the time he proposed a thought experiment where Mexicans treated immigrants the way that Americans do and I pointed out to him that Mexicans actually have a sordid history of murdering immigrants when they got uppity at a place called the Alamo.

            He is a buffoon with little understanding of history who has destroyed his own credibility.

            1. Don’t illegals in Mexico have no right to protest or anything?

        2. Go back to your NAMBLA chat room tubby.

    7. In case you guys missed this gem of a study,

      TLDR; strict quarantine, masks, and social distancing did not stop the spread.

      The whole thing is a joke.

      1. In fact, MORE people in the quarantine & mask group got sick than the no mitigation group. (2.8% vs 1.7%)

        1. Eh, I should say “tested positive” because only 1 person actually got sick.

          1. Dead RNA fragment detection system…

    8. Yea because if we all just wore masks it would all be fine. Here take this perforated piece of plastic to cover you during a thunderstorm.

      Just idiots!

    9. My contention is that good men (not bad men) consistently acting upon that position [imposing “the good”] would act as cruelly and unjustly as the greatest tyrants. They might in some respects act even worse. Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under of robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber barons cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some points be satiated; but those who torment us for their own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to heaven yet at the same time likely to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be “cured” against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on the level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.

  3. Do State Authorities Have Any Idea How to Handle COVID?


    1. Actually, I think they do.
      But instead, they have decided now is the time for the fascists to seize power.

    2. Yes, most of them do. This isn’t rocket science. (it’s biology!)

      What they don’t know how to do is handle a bunch of people convinced that mask-wearing is for pussies and that the virus is a hoax that they should maybe be responsible citizens.

      We’ve fought SARS and before that ebola and before that swine flu and before that polio. We’re not new at this. What is new are political leaders saying this thing is a hoax, nothing to worry about, and that it will be gone right after the election.

      1. What they don’t know how to do is handle a bunch of people convinced that mask-wearing is for pussies and that the virus is a hoax that they should maybe be responsible citizens.

        Except that there’s no proof that these spikes are due to people who didn’t wear masks. You’re making a claim with no empirical evidence whatsoever.

      2. Science has been extremely clear that masks do nothing, and probably do harm when used improperly. Like reusing the same mask for days or end so that it becomes a viral saturated cesspool

        They are being used as a psychological balm for panicky sheep to think that they can “do something” to protect themselves. That has some beneift, because the economy needs to keep going or far far more will die.

    3. No, because they are state authorities and don’t know what the hell they are doing.

  4. I long ago realized that no matter where I go, what I do, or who I meet, I could always have gone somewhere else, done something else, or met someone else; what counts is what you want.

    John D. Rockefeller could only get Thai food by taking several months to go to Thailand, or by hiring a Thai chef. I can get That food from my freezer. I don’t have the selection that an actual Thai restaurant (or chef!) could provide, but I don’t have to live in a crowded city and hope that someone good opened a Thai restaurant nearby.

    In exchange for limiting myself to good (not excellent, not shitty) Thai food, I get 16 acres, stars at night, and enough nearby friends and neighbors that don’t have to be separated from thousands of strangers. I can no longer have taxi drivers tell me what The Economist got wrong about Nigerian politics, but online forums provide many more possible discussions.

    What seems most wrong about Liz’s return to New York, and why I left San Francisco, is the continual hunt for new experiences, as if life itself is too boring without depending on other people to do things which we consume, whether it is Thai food, street fairs, fancy cocktails at exorbitant prices, or even new friends because the old ones have gotten predictable.

    1. Go to an Asian grocer and get all the right ingredients and cook it yourself. It’s not hard.

      1. Don’t even need to do that. I can get coconut milk and curry paste from the grocery story, and voila I’ve got Thai curry by adding that to a stir fry. Oyster sauce and now I can make Thai basil. Well, except for the Thai basil and mini eggplant.

        Still, you don’t need an Asian market. Most ingredients are in the regular grocery store.

        1. They almost never have the right chili peppers or the right basil. Thai/Asian basil is completely different than the variety found in American grocery stores. Fish sauce is either missing or in very small and expensive bottles. Same goes for kimchi and gochoojang for Korean food, rice noodles for Pho, etc..

          You really need an Asian market, if you are used to the real thing.

          1. Around here they sell the peppers as a decorative plant at the grocery store. They look cool because the thin red peppers point upwards. Little do most people know, those are the Thai chilis that give the heat and unique flavor. You’re totally right about the basil. That’s hard to find.

            1. That’s a good way to go. Bird’s eye chilies. And they gotta be fresh, not dried. It’s tough to grow spicy chilies in the PNW fall/winter, even indoor.

          2. Same thing applies to all foods. There is no such thing as “Korean” food; there are varieties of the “same” dish within Korea, within Seoul. Every good cook adds their own variety. Ingredients grow differently in different climates, different soils.

            People sneer at Taco Bell as not being “real” Mexican food. Far as I know, it has never claimed to be “authentic” Mexican food. Tacos vary throughout Mexico. Some Mexicans who come to the US like Taco Bell, some don’t.

            1. Most of the store brands have an off, overly sour taste. I suspect they change the pH to allow greater shelf life. In the NW we have a brand called Choi’s Kimchi. It’s far and away the best store-bought kimchi I’ve had stateside. A little expensive, but it’s tough to go back to the big jars sold at Korean markets after having it. Strangely, the founder was just murdered recently.


              1. I suspect your Asian market made product has a lot more added sugar – probably white, maybe palm – than the commercial products.

          3. Smaller Asian markets are hit or miss. My local market, much more Thai/Vietnamese/Laotian (Holland), is fine for rice and most other things, and the not quite local markets are more Korean (Grand Rapids), but you can’t find any of the good Bibigo brand kimchi. The nearest kimchi that has great flavor is H-Mart, and I’m 3-4 hours between Chicago or Detroit. I haven’t had trouble finding most other things, as long as I am willing to go with Thai/Vietnamese originating items (fine for most things though). Jjajang is the hardest to find locally (my favorite thing /cry).

            I’ve taken to replacing chili peppers with jalapeno peppers. Between that, gochujang and red pepper flakes, there’s plenty of spice. Not that the curry needs it, but jjajang with a kick is awesome. Meijer brand 4 cheese Mexican mix also makes almost everything better. Curry, jjajang, ramen (with tuna/egg added)… I missed out on great food for so much of my life.

            None of it compares to actually eating in Korea though.

            1. Jalapenos have a distinct flavor and medium heat. I’m sure you can find the hot, pointy, red ones in a dried form at least.

            2. The beans aspect of Korean food cracks me up a little. I do enjoy jjajang, though. Red beans in desserts I will never cotton to.

              I lived in Grand Rapids for a few years as a child. Definitely no Korean markets back then, at least not in my Mom’s repertoire. I remember going to a Vietnamese restaurant with my family in the 80’s, and all of us thinking how exotic it was and asking my dad if it was like the food he had in the war. Now I’m surrounded by Pho and Banh Mi shops and Vietnamese owned businesses.

              Washington State is pretty great for worldly libertarians. All the different cuisines and cultures, no gun restrictions (not enforced anyway), legal weed, no income tax, no cap gains tax, no corporate income tax. All you have to do is not let the crazy socialist minority get your blood pressure up. The whole state is fair game, except capitol hill in Seattle. That’s their turf. Visit, but do not stay.

          4. I got Kimchi in my local grocer in Florida, then central California, and no surprise, here in SF. Having lived in S. Korea, kimchi is something I always keep in the fridge. I’ve even made it once. With Amazon, gojuchang is easy to come by since it ships well but my grocers have all carried that too. Fish sauce is okay here, but you’re right, very expensive and it’s not as pungent as I recall from Korea. It works, though. For Thai basil, the solution is simple enough: seeds and taking advantage of all the home-grow pot tech you find on the interwebs. I grow chilis and tomatoes in my garage. (pot is legal here so no need to mess with that if I wanted it.)

            I’ve always wondered what Korean cuisine was like before chili peppers were imported from the Americas. I can’t imagine Korean cooking without the chilis.

        2. Barbecue ftw

          I can smoke a piece of meat in my Weber kettle better than almost any barbecue restaurant you can go to.

        3. They used to carry the skinny Asian eggplants at my local grocer, but I must have been one of the very few people who bought them, because they stopped. Now I have to go to one of several specialty grocers instead. Which is fine, they also have the Thai basil.

          1. You really do know better, so it surprises me that you’d assume the grocer’s reason, when could ask.

      2. Always a reminder this country is still the greatest in the world if only for it’s grocery store system.

        1. hear hear!

        2. The apocryphal story is that it was a visit to our grocery stores that convinced Yeltsin that the Soviet Union could never compete with capitalism.

          1. going to the grocery store in Europe is like shopping at 7-11.

            1. eh. Tesco definitely isn’t Kroger, but it’s got better selection than 7-11 (though the UK and continental Europe aren’t the same).

            2. 20 years ago that might have been true. But they are getting a lot closer to American style in some places at least.

              1. I remember like 25 years ago in Spain, the “Supermercado”, pretty close to central Madrid, was just an indoor space with stalls for different vendors selling different types of things. Now you can go to EL Corte Ingles and have pretty much whatever you want. And the smaller local grocery stores aren’t bad at all. Definitely more than the typical American Bodega.

              2. Its still a rarity. Most of continental europe requires a shopper to go to multiple smaller stores to complete the same shopping trip that can be done at one us grocery store. Justnlast year, had wealthy european business colleagues visit and they were stunned by a midgrade grocery store.
                Its the fresh foods and selection that stunned the. Every fruit and vegetable they could think of and the huge amount of imported goods from french cheeses to german seltzer.

          2. Coming back from deployments, I would always volunteer to do the grocery shopping, until the honeymoon phase wore off again. The simple joy of being to buy nearly anything my stomach could desire is a liberating feeling after being given the same 10 meals on rotation (or taking your chances with food poisoning from local fare) for months on end. The American supermarket is truly a life improving innovation.

            1. I had the same experience. Just feels amazing to live in a world with that many choices after being in a world of so few.

    2. >>stars at night

      for months Saturn has been riding shotgun with Jupiter and now Mars is in the same view …

      1. This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius.

      2. I borrowed a telescope from a friend to take a look. Actually got the focus to where I could see Saturns Rings. It was also cool to get to see Callisto, Ganymede, Io and Europa. I’d never seen them before.

        1. Yeah, those are pretty much the coolest things to see through a small telescope. I find the moons of Jupiter particularly thrilling to see. Seeing the phases of Venus is pretty neat too.

    3. The common thread in these two accounts – middle-aged women who haven’t formed families. If people aren’t going to fulfill their basic biological function as organisms, what else is there to occupy their time with besides hedonistic pursuits?

      It seems they’re making some sort of half-assed attempt to be “cool aunts”, but I bet the pandemic-driven desire to be closer to the ‘rents is driven more by mooching and competition over the inheritance.

      1. Are they really middle aged? By the accounts, I had guessed about 30.

        1. Look at their work products going back 10-15 years or so. I’d be shocked if either was professionally published before finishing university, because they’re just not that good at it. If that was age 22, let’s assume, their age now would be at least 32-37.

          Look also at their author profile photos. Clearly both are at least 35.

          Middle-aged is accurate by either method.

  5. As you all spent months putting down the president resulting in a doddering old fool getting elected, I am not inclined to care much. After 4 years of liberaltarians and other lefties bleating about some new crisis, evocations of covid fear aren’t motivating.

    1. 248K dead Americans isn’t motivating?
      Okay then.

      1. you are working under the bizarre belief that anything could or can be done to stop it. Current facts clearly show that nothing done globally has altered the trend of this virus.
        We were all screwed, and those deaths inevitable, when china let this unfinished bioweapon out of their lab. Thank goodness that they didnt get further with it, because the world dodged a major bullet with this one. It could have been far far worse, and the CCP initially thought it would be, evdenced by the military physically cutting roads and putting earthen barriers around every exit out of wuhan.

      2. Shawn dude exactly what “motivates” you to think that good old Joe is going to do anything that will impact Covid.

        Are you that f-ing dumb?

  6. God bless Texas. Air still smells free here.

  7. Now, for several hundred dollars per month less than we were paying in D.C., we are renting a three-bedroom and two-bathroom apartment in Cincinnati, Ohio, not far from where I grew up.

    You can do that by just moving to the DC suburbs. When we first moved to DC we lived in a tiny apartment with ridiculous rent. I even had to rent my parking space. I liked the very walkable neighborhood and the convenience, but then we moved just outside the line and rented a 3 bedroom house with a big yard and more room than we needed for the same price. Now we’ve bought a house on a half acre lot in the suburbs and our mortgage payment is still less than the rent on a 1 BR in DC. Also, I’m very wary of going into DC these days, even to go out to eat. You never know when some fools are going to make you have a bad time.

    1. You pay for the convenience of being able to walk to all the things you don’t care about. I once lived within walking distance of many things. I found I didn’t go to most of them by any means. Now I am not in walking distance of many things. I still don’t go to most of them.

  8. TLDR. But I bet nobody lost their business or job.

    1. I skimmed and saw ‘Liz Wolfe’ and ‘Elizabeth Nolan Brown’. In addition to nobody losing their job, I strongly suspect the article is biased towards people who can do their job “effectively” from a closet and don’t have to lift things.

      Moreover, the ‘criscrossing’ I see is from D.C. to Ohio and TX to Brooklyn. That’s a pretty short rendition of Hank Snow’s “I’ve Been Everywhere”.

    2. Nope. They discussed businesses struggling and people losing their jobs.

      1. Name the person or persons who lost their job and/or business.

        1. I have to read the blog post for you?

          “Service workers wondered how they were going to pay rent for the next few months…”

          “They’re doing everything they can to adapt, but it still might not be enough to stay profitable.”

          “I’m horrified by how many service industry folks—and people in other high-contact industries that can’t be made remote, like tattooers—who have worked incredibly hard throughout this pandemic might descend into undeserved pauperdom as the virus and the state work in tandem to shut things down.”

          “In New York, many friends are white-collar workers who can work remotely from home, whereas a striking number of friends in Texas have encountered loss of income or significant work disruptions that arise from working in jobs where you can’t transition to remote. In Texas, I know nannies and pastors and animal control responders and bouncers and barbacks whose jobs have changed dramatically since March. And some jobs no longer exist at all, of course.”

          “… with many going on unemployment for the first time in their lives.”

          1. I have to read the blog post for you?

            Considering you didn’t read my question, I suggest you read it again and come up with some names.

            1. The authors probably dont have the names because that would mean actually engaging personally with the service workers.
              As this pandemic has clearly shown, the plight of the normies…the majority of the working class….has been largely irrelevant to the elite. So many aholes sitting in their home offices, dictating behaviors to the 80% tha have to physically go to work everyday to scan groceries, pack boxes, run equipment, etc, etc. and that elite largely doesnt give a crap that their dictated behaviors do nothing except destroynthe livelihood of those workers.

              1. Yeah , other than the ‘Texas friends’ everything else was generalized to the point of banality. Enough so that it is easy to suspect it is mostly filler, and not based on any actual particulars.

  9. As the coronavirus reshapes daily life, two Reason editors crisscross the country and describe what they’ve seen.

    Guess I don’t have to bother reading the article if we’ve already decided it’s the coronavirus that’s reshaping daily life and not the hysterical over-reaction to the coronavirus by an authoritarian government determined not to let a crisis go to waste. It’s almost as if Justin Trudeau’s speech to the UN about how this pandemic has created a perfect opportunity for government to “reset” society and institute every bit of their wet dream for how society should be forced to operate never happened.

    1. society of total cowards. My business it totally and probably forever in the toilet thanks to these fucking assholes. I know more people who have committed suicide than have died of the covid and I’ve known a shitload of people who have caught it in all probably including me given my roommate had it. Fuck all these spineless cowards.

      1. You people are not mentally well, are you?

        1. Stop projecting.

    2. These globalists now feel free to parrot the same catchphrases promoting their One World Government fantasies (Great Reset, Build Back Better), now that one of their own is going to be back in charge of the world’s only superpower.

      1. Frankly It’s more conspiratorial at this point to think these people actually have your best interests at heart.

  10. You people are spineless pussies. I’m sorry Reason has completely failed on this subject. We have become a totalitarian state in the last 8 months and you people seem to think this is just peachy and these gov are ever going to give up their powers are legit insane. Only thing that stops this is no joke insurrection or the state gov running out of money to do anything. You have Biden talking about a national 6-8 week lockdown in the spring and you have the Covid team sans atlas talking about social distancing and mask culture even after the Vaccine. It’s over the statists won and you people seem to think it’s just fine because you can draw a remote check and have a streaming and food delivery app. Fuck off.

    1. Back at the start of this, I broke the population into two general camps: The Staycationers and the Amputees.

      ENB and Wolfe are Staycationers. They can work from wherever the fuck they want. They don’t understand the existential crises faced by my family members who aren’t allowed to work. They think some pittance check mailed by the government ought to keep those people happy, without understanding the soul-crushing anguish that comes from seeing business you built according to the rules wrecked by some arbitrary asshole, and cheered on by the tut-tutting Staycationers who insist that everything will be fine.

      1. They dont understand and they dont care. The callous disregard from the elites that have the luxury to woke from home to those who dont is appalling.

      2. Some people are cleaning up over this.

        My wife just got back from a family issue down in Florida. The place is double packed – all the usual snowbirds PLUS a whole bunch of Canadians on extended staycation – their kids are all remote schooling so they have no reason to go back home.

    2. Given that the state governments are using the powers already invested in them for just these sorts of circumstances, I’m not really sure what you’re on about? They use them when they need to and then stop. You know like polio, swine flu, SARS, ebola, etc.

      Biden doesn’t have the authority to mandate a 6-8 week lockdown. Anyone telling you otherwise is lying. Biden already admitted as much. And who the heck knows what “the Covid team sans atlas” is talking about?! They haven’t done much of anything and aren’t briefing the incoming administration so how would any of us really know what goes on? Based on the way this country hasn’t dealt with the virus, I suspect “not much” is what’s been going on at those meetings.

      If you think having to wear a mask in public during a deadly pandemic that has taken almost as many American lives as WWII is “statist,” you’d be in for a big shock if you ever experienced the real thing. For starters, anti-government tirades on public internet boards would get you beaten up or disappeared. Just have a look at China’s activities in Hong Kong recently. That’s statist.

      1. For starters, anti-government tirades on public internet boards would get you beaten up or disappeared.

        Thanks for admitting Trump isn’t actually a fascist.

      2. But they were never given those powers. Theynhave taken them, and used rampant propaganda to convince idiotic sheep like yourself that its for your own good.


      3. What restrctive steps were taken for Sars, swine flu, etc. ?

      4. They were given authority to handle relatively minor disasters of limited scope in time and location, like a burst dam or hurricane or planes flown into buildings. Not handle insurgencies or pandemics.

        Instead they’ve extended relatively minor authority into obscene lengths, going nearly unchecked by leftist legislatures and courts.

  11. I think the authorities really have no idea how to handle this.

    This is the most revealing statement in the whole article. These people thrive on a droned-out, compliant populace in a world where there’s no problem that can’t be solved by some bureaucratic dictate or executive order, and everything is predictable based on some model or formula that a credentialed expert burped out on their computer.

    When reality doesn’t work out in a way that they anticipated, they undergo a moral collapse, and end up looking like clueless, scolding idiots, blaming others for their own failure.

    They remind me a lot of Dutch Van Der Linde in Red Dead Redemption 2, constantly trying to reassure Arthur Morgan, “I have a PLAN” and “have some god damn FAITH!”, all while the group is breaking down around them.

    1. >>bureaucratic dictate or executive order

      also unending commercial breaks about the new normal and how we’re all in this together because the Nurses

      1. Honestly, this has to be one of the most bourgeoisie articles about the pandemic I’ve ever seen–a couple of upper middle class white women talking about the minor inconveniences to their lifestyle brought about by confused government bureaucrats.

        A better approach would have been to actually dig in to how this is affecting people of all classes nationwide, not just in the limited social bubbles that the authors inhabit. While there’s a sliver of awareness that the leaders of our various governments don’t know what they’re doing, you’d think there’d be more outrage and examination in a Libertarian article about the arbitrary, destructive effects that their policies have had on ordinary people who don’t have the luxury of being able to just pick up and move at whim, or can get paid to work from home and continue living in comfort and ease. Especially when their policy prescriptions failed to prevent the very thing they assured us would not happen as long as we obeyed.

        1. >>A better approach

          exactly. I read you guys more than the writers anyway.

          1. I casually glance at the articles for context and then read the comments. I find more value reading comments even from individuals with whom I seem to disagree frequently than the offerings of Sullum, ENB and LW. I’d cancel my magazine subscription entirely but it was $5.00 for 3 years, or something like that.

        2. CBS has a new tweet about very long food lines in Dallas…

          1. cute how they tied it to the covids

          2. People are really afraid of Biden…

            1. People are really afraid of the near future.
              The winter peak is going to be bad, and the working class damn well knows what that will mean to their jobs, paychecks, etc. combine that with a potential for the economy tanking and/or politicla riots in the streets and much of the country is filling the pantries and clearing the shelves of ammo.

              1. I don’t think the winter peak is gonna be too bad. The reproduction numbers in Europe are already starting to turn down with cases and deaths appearing to have peaked.

                1. I hope you are right. Part of the expectation is that coronaviruses and influenza follow very routine seasonal trends. For mid-northern US that starts Oct, peaks Jan-ish and tapers off by April. with covid19 hitting US in Feb-March this year it was at the end of the typical ‘peak’ so we probably only caught the tail end prior to it tapering off.
                  If this is accurate, then currenlty we are just in the ramp-up phase of the virus season and will be peaking in Jan before it starts to taper off. I hope that’s wrong because it will be a long winter otherwise and the economy won’t survive it.

        3. What’s the point of being a journalist if you cannot make it all about yourself???

  12. This whole thing is a trial run for more permanent control. I am pretty sure they will try to make the vaccine mandatory.

    I’ve never been so glad to live in the midwest. The globalists reach may get this far, but it probably won’t get as bad as quickly

    1. trial run?

      1. I mean it won’t be about the pandemic forever. They will keep moving the goalposts until they’re on an entirely different playing field, like climate change

        1. they won’t need to as they are going to drive everyone out of business first. Greatest transfer of wealth since reconstruction. 2021 is going to make 2008 look like the roaring 20’s they keep this up probably going to look that way no matter what they do going forward.

          1. I would think that “the reset” will involve elements of pandemic hysteria, climate hysteria, financial panic, and various SJW pants shitting. In a few years it will be clear that this all didn’t just happen cuz 2020.

            1. 2020 was the phase shift

              1. Fourth turning. If there is anything to that generational trend to history, things are going to be ‘interesting’ in the next few years.

    2. I doubt they will make the vaccine mandatory. They’ll just make it a condition of going to school or getting a license or whatever.

      1. I don’t know what to expect with this. Suffice to say given what they’ve been able to do so far in most states has shocked me and nothing at this point forward would surprise me.

        1. Imagine the LA freeways at rush hour. Now imagine them with all rules, policies, traditions, and enforcements removed. You can drive however you want, whenever you want, in any way that you want.
          So we institute a few rules and enforce them and things work out better for most people.
          Same with a pandemic response. A few rules to slow down the virus’ progression while a vaccine is made. Nothing we haven’t gone through before. (I have a polio vaccine scar on my arm as evidence.)

          That this has all shocked you to the point where nothing more surprises you is kinda sad. Mostly because I know those things that will surprise you are just around the corner, most likely, and you’ll be shocked and dismayed once again. The federal government response to this has been pathetic, weak, and ineffectual. It’s what we pay those people for, after all–one of their main reasons for existence. We’re going to be paying for their cock-up for years now.

          1. So we institute a few rules and enforce them and things work out better for most people.
            Same with a pandemic response. A few rules to slow down the virus’ progression while a vaccine is made.

            Except it didn’t slow it down and we’re seeing nationwide spikes.

          2. Right, because without laws, we only have chaos.

            People can’t figure out how to interact with others without big brother telling them how to act.

            I wonder if this mindset comes from constantly awaiting someone else to help you out of your undoubtedly many self-inflicted problems.

          3. How does your mind equate “I have been vaccinated ” with “these restrictions of the last 8 months haven’t been enough?”

            What more would you have done?

            How much was liberty restricted in the lead up to a polio vaccine?

      2. Or buying food or going out in public

      3. also penaltax

    3. If you’re not in Florida or Texas, you’re not safe.

      1. CDC case data doesn’t agree with you.

        Texas: 3,591 cases and 68 deaths per 100K citizens.
        California: 2,602 / 46
        Florida: 4,119 / 82
        Nebraska: 5,266 / 41
        Washington State: 1,746 / 33
        Oregon: 1,376 / 18

        Based on CDC numbers, TX and FL are not your best choice. The Western liberal states with the mandates appear to be safer.

        1. You really aren’t intelligent

        2. Right, because covid is the only danger in the world.

        3. Funny how you left off the northeast and the lake states, particularly NY NJ MA WI MI IL, which is and has been a clusterfuck of leftist stupidity.

          Pick and choose much.

    4. Do you think you people could make just one thing NOT about the Jews trying to control your precious bodily fluids?

      Fucking broken records for 100 goddamn years.

      1. What the hell are you talking about?

        1. I think he thinks that “globalists” is code for international Jewish conspiracy.

  13. Stopped reading this nonsense after the 25th use of the word “I”.

    Nobody cares about the personal lives or feelings of ENB or Liz Wolfe, which is why bots were the first five responders to this crap.

    But many of us are still waiting for some Reason articles (even one) extolling the libertarian achievements by Trump.

    1. Nobody cares about the personal lives or feelings of ENB or Liz Wolfe

      Agreed. It might be understandable to have a paragraph or two about their own experiences, but it used to be that actual journalists would at least spend time talking to people who have to deliver essential goods or provide essential services before writing shitty fluff pieces about the effects any given policy is having on your average American.

      Liz worked around her problem by baking cookies with her sister? Stop the presses so that airline pilots, homebuilders, and nurses who can’t go see their relatives lest their employers be forced to furlough them can read her bullshit.

    2. Who cares about Trump’s libertarian achievements.

      The guy sends out mean tweets…that’s enough.

    3. Too soon to say, really. Is it an achievement if it doesn’t survive the first 100 days of the Biden administration?

      1. So if you burn it down, he never really built it?

  14. Thanks for the Brooklyn article, Liz. And I can tell you first hand that things in Brooklyn have been great. People here have been resilient for sure. Restaurants have found ways to offer tables outside, parks have been packed, and I’d say about 90% of Brooklynites wear masks…they don’t whine about it. Quite honestly it’s been a load of BS, offered by some who write here but probably don’t live in NY, how bad the city has gotten. It’s rebounded quite well.

    Sure we miss some of the things that make us reside here, like Broadway, multiple sports teams in every sport, concerts…but it’s temporary. We probably will get some of it back next fall. And at the end of the day, it’ll be about 1 1/2 years we went without…big deal. At least here we don’t whine about it constantly…now that’s the difference between red and blue states.

    1. Funny, I live in a blue state and the whining is pretty constant.

      1. As long as there is no unrest in the bread lines, things are fine.

        1. Unrest in the Bread Line would be a great band name.

    2. eat shit commie.

    3. “We don’t whine in Blue States because freedom really means being able to go to a Broadway play once every couple of years with your Governor’s permission. Unlike all those “other” people in Red States who just bitch about not being able to keep their jobs, or pay their mortgages, or send their kids to school, or visit family for the holidays or who are dying, or not be told: ‘wear the cloth untermensch!’ I’m proud that we Blue Staters don’t whine about such asinine stuff as that!”

      1. Oh man, much apologies to you, Rhombus the Terrible. I wasn’t referring to those salt of the earth hard workers that are the bedrock of the economy. I was more referring to folks like this, who said down below:

        “Don’t worry everyone, we won’t regress to the old days of “freedom” after the vaccine. There’s absolutely ZERO chance that these reasons will become excuses to keep people locked-down, separated, and wearing masks…no chance at all.”

        Now that’s a whiner! Masks…one of the original prohibitions from the Bill of Rights! They’re never going away! That’s the typical red state whiner I’m referring to…not you, of course.


        1. Just wear the star you sarcastic fascist.

        2. Keep it up with your “holier than thou” elitism about how infringing on OTHER PEOPLE’S freedom is not a “thing” because you think its for The Greater Good(TM). You can’t help but whine about OTHER people wanting to live their fucking lives. Choke on your mask, Big Brother.


          1. Knowingly spreading a deadly disease is infringing on other people’s freedom.

            I think what you mean to say is that you don’t people infringing on your freedom but don’t give a hoot the impact you have on others.

            I get it. Society isn’t for you. You’re a lone wolf. You need your freedom to do as you want. That’s cool. There are still plenty of places on this planet where society hasn’t taken root. Vote with your feet and be the lone wolf free from society’s pressures that you yearn to be.

            1. And you make up “knowingly ” out of thin air.

              You really are cattle, you do realize that, right?

        3. >>Masks…one of the original prohibitions from the Bill of Rights!

          freedom of expression. you’re boring.

        4. All the baby Kirklands are having their ‘Spartacus’ moment in the afterglow of the election.

          1. Well, you can always look back on the youtube videos of douchebags with tiki torches, militia marches, and kids in cages and relive the fond memories of the last four years. Surely you got what you wanted out of that election. Now it’s our turn.

            1. “I am Kirklandius! Look upon my works ye clingers, and despair!”

              Oh, and fuck off, slaver.

    4. Ah, you’re a hipster beta bitch.
      Why are we not surprised.

      1. Every last one of you morbidly obese alcoholics would give the first and last inch of your micropenises to be as cool as a hipster beta.

        1. You’ve got me confused with chemjeff.

    5. If you don’t whine about it constantly it’s only because you spend so much time eating Biden’s ass.

    6. Why do you keep electing asshat mayors?

      1. Good question.

    7. New Englanders used to be made of stronger stuff.

      Compliance to authority is not how the USA got started.

      1. Yeah right. Explain how this is an incorrect statement:

        The US was founded by landed aristocrats who owned slaves in order to protect their own economic interests and nobody else’s.

        1. explain how this is an incorrect statement:
          Tony is a socialist wannabe who lurks on Reason comment pages spouting totalitarian nonsense founded on an intense tribal hate of others.

          1. In New England? Are you mentally defective?

        2. The who is partly true (though it was also founded by city dwelling people opposed to slavery). The why that you posit is nonsense.

          1. You see, when people Tony wants to demonize vote on principle, they are idiot rubes for not voting their own interests. When they vote for their own interests, they are selfish grasping assholes.

            It’s all partisan vomit, all the way down.

      2. NH has been relatively sane. Certainly more restrictions than I would like, but nothing is enforced on individuals at least. And the election went pretty well. Something like 78 candidates endorsed by the local re-open org were elected. The rest of New England, I don’t know what to say.

      3. Back in the days of sail it took balls to emigrate from Europe

    8. Maybe if you grovel enough she will let you smell her.

    9. Because folks in Brooklyn don’t know how to cook. It is like some weird tik tok adventure for New Yorkers. Hey look I made an omelette! Post that.

    10. Never had any issues in central NY where real NY’ers live…not bolshevik NYC frappuccino sipping wimps…honestly the world does not begin and end in woke cities..they are full of filth, crime, and greed…please stay there don’t pollute free America.

  15. Is everyone who works for Reason a stoner?

    1. they’d be much more chill.

    2. Most of the commenters seem to be.

      1. Safety sensitive job with require testing. But i enjoy the ambience and virtual secondary high.

  16. So, don’t get excited because these people are/were all Republicans, my girlfriend’s grandmother died. My uncle’s wife’s brothers and one wife spent months or weeks in the hospital and apparently will never recover full health and are essentially disabled for life. Two neighbors died. Three people who live near our camp died from it. A friend’s best friend died from it.

    1. go peddle your bullshit somewhere else.

      1. Unless you are blogging from a nursing home in new york nobody believes you.

    2. Sorry to hear about these people suffering and dying. Can’t wait for the vaccines to come out.

      1. >>Sorry to hear about these people suffering and dying.

        jeebus fuck what happens when you think globally?

        1. You are offended that I offered my condolences for the death and illness if someone’s family members?

          1. dude I just asked a question.

    3. In my county of 100k, 20 people died of overdose and 4 died of covid and they were all in nursing homes and were going to die within a year. My dad Has COPD and is ready to die. People die its sad but true

      1. the covid deaths were in nursing homes. the overdoses were “productive” people living a good life with lots of prospects.

        1. Do you get to tell other families that their elderly members have to die for the sake of your movie night?

          1. Some utilitarian you are.

            It’s statements like this which disprove the idea that you have any principles whatsoever, even if they are shitty ones.

            1. I don’t get to have principles until I agree with the premise that the old and fat should die for my benefit?

              1. If you have to resort to that kind of emotional manipulation, you don’t really have a case to make.

                That’s what happens now that your magical mask talismans are shown to be nothing more than coping mechanisms.

                1. I remember when I was the one explaining utilitarianism to libertarians.

                  Of course you’d begin immediately supporting the premise the moment you could kill a few million people for the greater good.

                  1. Hey, it’s not my fault the magical mask talismans and public gathering restrictions failed to prevent a nationwide spike in coof cases.

    4. If that’s true, you have shockingly bad luck.

    5. So you live near a bunch of weak people? Nice to know. The death toll is way above any national average.

      1. The weak should die for the sake of the fatherland!

        –Not Milton Friedman

        1. Perhaps the vulnerable should quarantine themselves instead of demanding EVERYBODY ELSE do so. Maybe just maybe.

          1. So you read about the Trump supporters going to their deaths denying covid, yes?

            40% of the country are high-risk, probably you included. It’s not a win for liberty if 40% of the country are quarantined for the rest of their lives so the remaining 60% can have normal lives.

            But here we are at the part of the argument where you start spouting absurdities because you reflexively took Donald Trump’s side in an argument about science.

            1. So better that everyone be quarantined for the rest of their lives?

              1. Would that logically follow from my argument? No? Then why the fuck would you waste both of our time asking stupid fucking questions like that?

    6. I’m glad all those people are fucked up or dead. Natural selection, bitch. Ya’ll must have been a bunch of lard-eating heifers who were one ham sandwich away from a heart attack anyway.

      1. Harsh, but not wrong.

        Everyone dies. The virus is so contagious that nothing we do has stopped its spread. These people were doomed when china let this thing loose into the world.
        Sad, but true, and the totalitarian fantasies that asshats like tony pleasure themselve to are not a solution.

  17. Don’t worry everyone, we won’t regress to the old days of “freedom” after the vaccine.

    There’s absolutely ZERO chance that these reasons will become excuses to keep people locked-down, separated, and wearing masks…no chance at all.

    1. We didn’t have to wear masks after polio, MMR, H1N1, or any other infectious illness with a vaccine, but somehow the coof “changes everything” and we need to wear masks forever some undetermined amount of time.

      If you need to wear a mask totem after taking a vaccine, then the vaccine doesn’t actually work.

      1. Dr Fauci is such an obnoxious little tyrant.

    2. You people would have more credibility if you hadn’t spent the last half-decade opening your throats to the world’s dumbest fascist.

      1. Dude, can’t you find a silicone phallus to project your Trump fantasies on?

        1. The only fantasy I have about Trumpists is that they find a shower some time in the next couple weeks.

          It’s fascinating watching a bunch of morbidly obese alcoholics assume that they are the master race and Donald Trump is the apex of sexual charisma.

          1. Leave your hicklib white trash family out of this.

    3. Dude. Stop hyperventilating.
      If you believe in anything, believe in greed. Greed will make sure the rich and powerful turn the “fun” back on as quickly as possible. They don’t get richer if the poor aren’t buying things.

      1. They also dont get richer when the poor decide they have had enough and start burning evrthing the rich have to the ground and stringing them up on the nearest lamppost. History is filled with similar events and you totalitarian morons seem to think that somehow its different this time. History repeats, and heaven help us all when your fantasies about control and submission blow up in your face.

  18. Pandemics kill hundreds of thousands of people, but it takes a government to shut down the economy and drive everyone to alcoholism while pandemics kill hundreds of thousands of people.

  19. Oh, perish the thought of living somewhere that one can’t have immediate access to organic free-range grass-fed beef, 30 types of kombucha, and locally brewed booze! And what would we do without sustainability sourced palm oil?

    Being muzzled and dragged around on a leash, though? We can live with that.

  20. California going back on high alert. My cell phone shrieked last night like a tornado was on the way — we’re back in the dreaded Purple Tier!

    Masks and shutdowns didn’t work the first time, so more masks and shutdowns.

    1. Cases doubled! Even though they’re way lower than they were in June.

      Once again, bars and restaurants and friends and family are being blamed, not the Joe Biden Street Party Superspreader Event.

    2. Masks and Hidin’ Biden. Two frauds.

      What a total and utter hysteria.

    3. Meanwhile in Georgia, No mask mandates and businesses are open for dining,

      We are having our usual 25+ For thanksgiving.

  21. Here there’s no more flu!



  22. It’s so sad reading about these poor Trump voters who deny the existence of COVID literally to their last breath. So sad to die painfully and alone and stupid.

    Turns out he didn’t have to shoot anyone on Fifth Avenue. They lined up in Bugfuckville and put their own foreheads to the barrel.

  23. The only thing I have learned from Covid, is that there are two kinds of people. Those who care about others and those who don’t give a shit about anyone but themselves.

    1. Indeed. An asshole who cares about nobody would demand people serve house arrest for an undetermined amount of time.

    2. Yeah, why are you assholes determined to punish small business owners who didn’t do anything wrong with bankruptcy and ruin?

      1. Because small business owners are predominantly republican leaning, so the lockdowns serve and multi tiered benefit. Force the working poor onto the government dole, throttled the life out of the independent business owning class, enable the elite work-from-home class by telling them they are the ‘good’ ones, and reward the chain store owners that fund blue politicians by allowing them to remain open and thrive on the market share taken from the independents.

        Its an elegant plan really. Utterly evil and vile what blue governors like cuomo, wolf, etc have done to their citizens, but elegant.

    3. I agree. But I probable mean the opposite of what you do. The lockdowns and forced business closures have harmed far more people than the virus. More people have probably died of the virus at this point, but lockdowns kill too, and will continue shortening people’s lives for years to come.
      I’d say the two kinds of people are those than can be tricked into an idiotic focus on one problem to the exclusion of all others and those who are able to look at the big picture, despite the constant propaganda.

  24. Geographical FYI: Washington DC to Cincinnati is not “across the country.”

    1. Might as well be. Anything outside the beltway is across the country for DC vermin.

    2. You are right. They are a world apart.

  25. Even in the midst of a pandemic that has limited how much we go out and where, it seems undeniable to me that suburbs and small towns are simply better places to live than they were 20 or 30 years ago.

    It’s you, not the suburbs and small towns that have changed. You’re an old lady now.

  26. I get paid more than $120 to $130 per hour for working online. I heard about this job 3 months ago and after joining this i have earned easily $15k from this without having online working skills. This is what I do…. CLICK HERE FOR FULL DETAIL

  27. Thanks ladies for causing me to waste half an hour reading about how your self-absorbed hipster lives have been impacted by the pandemic, but glad to hear there are more options than Applebys in the burbs now. I guess it’s true that this is how the democrats win, by pandering to big city wannabes.

    1. It is interesting how this was framed. Both are hipsters with the same sensibilities. All 4 locations are culturally similar. The most “red state” part of this is living just outside of a very liberal city. Living in an apartment in or near the biggest city in a state does not correlate with experiencing a red state. All I got from this is that they are annoying hipsters so stuck in their own bubble of privileged groupthink that they are clueless as to what most people’s lives are like

      1. There is no such thing as red state or blue state. If that is not a bubble collectivist way to see the world nothing is.

  28. More pieces of shit who are unreason staffers trying to peddle propaganda about how they “know” America.

    Write about your bubble because they might believe your drivel.

    1. Billions of people around the world know America, and when they think of it, they think of New York and California, not Bumfuck Alabama.

      1. Except to mock you for being toothless, religiously devolved mole people.

        1. But enough about your hicklib family.

        2. You got beat up a lot in school didn’t you? If you spoke like this in person you’d get beat up a lot today.

      2. no different the france=paris, england=london, japan=godzilla, you basement dwelling loser. The face of a counrty is its media presence, its propaganda.

        1. Parisians aren’t real French people! See how stupid it sounds?

      3. NYC? ha ha ha..I grew up in central NY and honestly if you want to see how yenta bolsheviks destroy liberty come by…NYC wokes destroyed the state..

  29. Reading these, it’s pretty clear why it seems that Reason is written by soy latte-sipping progressives.

    1. Damn right…these two need a nice safe Starbucks for there crappa frappuccino and a nothing job where they can pontificate on how normal Americans are racist…

  30. Sounds like you guys made the right move to Cincy ENB.

    Graeters ice cream. Skyline chili. Don’t know if it is still there on Elm street, the original Izzys. I know Izzy isn’t. Ate my lunches there when I worked downtown. There were no prices on the menu. You just ate and he would ask you what you had then ring it up.

    Cincinnati is home base for me.

    The flying pig riverfront walk is great on a nice day. The zoo, now the aquarium in Newport. Don’t know what those are like these days.

  31. My god now I know why Reason editors and libertarians I know have nothing in common. “Creative class NY and DC…” blah blah blah…cosmo woke fake libertarians to me. First almost every libertarian i know has a technical degree and most have MBA’s not “creative writing” or “art history” or some such crap. This idea that there is a ‘creative class” is so dripping with socialist crap the stench is violating the laws of physics and actually coming through my pc. Sorry the problem with Reason today is their editors are really not libertarians and normal Americans but typical liberal art major smokers who believe they are intellectuals…I mean seriously who the hell doesn’t have a car in the US? Only cosmo wokes…these two share very little with folks who want to radically downsize the federal govt, end the Fed, end foreign interventions, and stop the whole BLM/Antifa bolshevik movement. Your irrational feat of covid qualifies you for the WAPO or NYT…JC now I know why you hated Ron Paul….

  32. Sorry to be that person but it’s Peter Noone not Noon.

  33. The one clear point of this is that both authors have zero self-awareness.

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