Brickbat: Jesus Freak-Outs

The family of Lydia Booth, a third-grader at Mississippi's Simpson Central School, has sued the local school system after the principal forced her to remove a face mask with "Jesus Loves Me" on it and replace it with a plain one. The lawsuit says that the school system has allowed students to wear masks with sports teams logos and in support of the Black Lives Matter movement and calls the principal's actions a violation of Booth's First Amendment rights. Two days after the principal forced her to remove the mask, the school system banned masks that display "political, religious, sexual or any inappropriate symbols, gestures or statements that may be offensive, disruptive or deemed distractive to the school environment."

Comments

[Adans smith]

Your supposed to CYA before you get sued. I guess they never saw this coming. Another example of the worth of a 'education' degree.

[Seamus]

It's been 51 years since the Supreme Court decided Tinker v. Des Moines. You'd think school administrators would know by now that neither teachers nor students shed their first amendment rights at the schoolhouse door. But you'd be wrong. All administrators have learned is that they have to come up with increasingly creative excuses for suppressing first amendment rights.

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[ArkCelosar2]

If its a public school, they have every right to ban religious masks. Separation of Church and State, remember?

[loki]

Separation of Church and State would prohibit the school from forcing the student to wear a religious mask, not ban the student from wearing one.

[Mother's Lament]

It's like these guys always deliberately forget the "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part.

[Longtobefree]

And of course, they always conflate a personal letter with the actual US Constitution.

[Formerly Cynical Asshole]

Yep, they always forget about the part that deals directly with the individual's right to believe or not as they see fit. Funny how that works out.

[Michael P]

Students do not speak for the school, and so their speech is not limited by the First Amendment. The school's new standard is impermissibly content-based under crystal clear Supreme Court precedent. The Supreme Court has allowed bans on some of those kinds of content (sexually explicit, profane, and good-faith expectation of disruption), but struck down bans on specifically political or religious content. If the school wants to ban religious masks, it must also ban ALL other messages, for example by insisting on solid-color masks. It's not clear whether the school could allow simple designs but ban complex ones; but if they did, a cross would have to be allowed as a simple design.

[Squirrelloid]

It's not even clear they could insist on solid color masks. Free speech means getting to speak - even content neutral restrictions don't pass muster unless they are narrowly tailored and survive strict scrutiny. (ie, the only thing the school can do is ban sexually explicit, obscene, etc...).

[Rossami]

I think they could easily insist on solid color masks under the same logic that allows schools to impose uniforms.

Yes, schools must allow the opportunity to speak but that does not require granting the opportunity to speak in every possible channel. Banning all speech on clothing would be permissibly content-neutral.

[Squirrelloid]

So they could have banned black armbands by banning all armbands? I'm skeptical.

[Rossami]

Well, you tell me. What logic allows a school to require white shirts and khaki bottoms yet would forbid a school from requiring masks to be equally plain?

Jacobs v. Clark County School District was decided in 2008 and was not found to be inconsistent with Tinker.

[Gozer the Gozarian]

Which public school in the United States mandates uniforms?

[Rossami]

A great many of them do. See here for just a few examples. https://www.publicschoolreview.com/blog/uniforms-the-pros-and-cons

Whether uniforms are effective is a matter of considerable debate. I take no position on that question. I use them only as an example to rebut Squirreloid's contention that a solid-color mask restriction would be unpermitted.

[Gozer the Gozarian]

These can be easily declared null and void. Who pays for the uniforms? The parents or the taxpayers?

In most if not all cases it's the parents. This flies in the face of publicly-funded education. Arguably, all scholastic materials should/must be provided by the public educator. We provide pencils, papers, meals and other things to the students with government funding. Why would we not do the same for uniforms.

This is a slippery slope indeed.

[Rossami]

I think you're starting from some seriously mistaken assumptions. There is no such principle requiring that all scholastic materials be provided by the public educator. In almost all jurisdictions, parents are responsible for providing all pencils, paper, binders, meals, etc. Parents are also regularly required to pay for workbooks and other consumable materials even when they are mandatory for the class. Yes, there are provisions for subsidies for those who can't afford it but that remains a tiny subset of the population in most schools.

Uniforms have been successfully defended even in public school settings for many, many years. Legally, this is not even a slope, much less a particularly slippery one.

Again, I am not saying that uniforms are a good idea. That remains very controversial. I am only saying that it is undisputed that they are legal.

[R Mac]

Go back to vox ignorant prog.

[Seamus]

Fuck off, slaver. This isn't France. This is America.

[Foo_dd]

the separation of church and state means the school can not take any position on the matter..... period. they can neither endorse nor ban it.

[Boxbbcar]

That would be a reasoned argument,and in my view the correct one, however in practice many districts simply ban any reference to religious materials.

[Formerly Cynical Asshole]

Wrong. See every other comment you got in response to your uneducated nonsense.

[con_fuse9]

Look, we all know that some people can be obnoxious with slogans on T-shirts, hats (BLM or MAGA or VEGAN - we all agree they are the worst right?) If the mask was causing a disruption in school, then regardless of content, it can be banned. If it wasn't causing a disruption, principle should use discretion (i.e. his/her brains) and let it be. zero-tollerance == zero-brains

[Brian]

Sorry, but the heckler’s veto doesn’t override the constitution.

[Gozer the Gozarian]

There is no such thing as the separation of church and state. Show me the legal document/ruling/etc. that separates the church and the state.

[kevrob]

There is so "separation oof church and state." It is embodied in numerous court decisions. See: https://infidels.org/library/modern/church-state/decisions.html

The phrase comes from a letter written by Jefferson. The bricks are "free exercise" and the mortar is "non-establishment."

[Fist of Etiquette]

Jesus should have warned her the school was going to retroactively ban His mask.

[Inigo Montoya]

What is she wore a mask that said “Allah loves me,” would the principal make an exception?

[Kungpowderfinger]

That’s called a niqab.

[Mother's Lament]

The principal would wear one with her to demonstrate cultural sensitivity.

[SQRLSY One]

What if she wore a mask that said "Government Almighty Loves Me"? Would the class then spontaneously break into song, singing the below song?

Scienfoology Song… GAWD = Government Almighty’s Wrath Delivers

Government loves me, This I know,
For the Government tells me so,
Little ones to GAWD belong,
We are weak, but GAWD is strong!
Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
My Nannies tell me so!

GAWD does love me, yes indeed,
Keeps me safe, and gives me feed,
Shelters me from bad drugs and weed,
And gives me all that I might need!
Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
My Nannies tell me so!

DEA, CIA, KGB,
Our protectors, they will be,
FBI, TSA, and FDA,
With us, astride us, in every way!
Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
Yes, Guv-Mint loves me!
My Nannies tell me so!

[Squirrelloid]

Could your poetry at least *scan*? You've got the rhythm of a beat-deaf arthritic person trying to clap musically.

[R Mac]

Lol.

[Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)]

Flag, refresh. Ah, the headache inducing brain diarrhea is gone!

[SQRLSY One]

Did your MAGA-magic underwear help you to write that piece of literary genius?
Have you changed out the batteries in you magic underwear lately? Super-heavy usage will wear out those batteries, you know!

What’s up-Chuck?!?! Ya gonna EAT that, up-Chuck, or can I bury it in my back yard? I’m a-lookin’ fer some fart-a-lizer!
How much up-Chuck, could an up-Chuck, chuck up,
If an up-Chuck could chuck up up-Chuck?

[SQRLSY One]

Up-Chuck, you know, it was YOUR fault that Dear Leader didn't get or steal enough votes to stay in power! You didn't freshen up the batteries in your MAGA-magic underwear!!! You KNEW that the power-usage levels of your MAGA-magic underwear were dangerously high, and you SLUFFED OFF!!!

YOUR FAULT!!!! What do you have to say for yourself?!?!?!

[Sqrlsy's mom]

Fuck off, Sqrlsy.

[R Mac]

"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people"

-Karl Marx

The progressive march through education is nearly complete comrades.

[con_fuse9]

Well if Karl Marx said something, it must be true. And if he believed in something it must be evil.

Whatever.

You are of course free to stick to your superstitions. Of course when you wonder how Biden (or tRump) got so many votes, you have to allow for the answer "magic!" - maybe it was a miracle.
Can God vote?

[Quo Usque Tandem]

That does not even make sense; perhaps you can rephrase the point you are attempting to make?

[Sqrlsy's mom]

"Herpity-derp, sky-fairy, spaghetti-monster, I Believe In Science, Dawkins says..."

*con_fuse9 starts madly tipping his fedora*

[Crackers Boy]

Why does the school hate Hispanics? Jesus may be the guy that cuts her grass...

CB

[R Mac]

Or he could be her dad’s bowling partner.

[Chuck P. (The Artist formerly known as CTSP)]

Maybe Jesus is her uncle. This is her cry for help.

[Árboles de la Barranca]

You said it, man. Nobody fucks with the Jesus.

[Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland]

Superstitious adults and their indoctrinated children have rights, too. That mask -- like one that indicates 'Jesus is a fairy tale' or 'God: Just as real as Mickey Mouse' -- should be permitted.

Jesus is a fairy tale for gullible children of all ages; people are entitled to believe as they wish, regardless of how silly those beliefs are.

Carry on, clingers.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

Fake lawyer, fake poll watcher, fake reverend.

But ardent soup kitchen fan, you.

[Quo Usque Tandem]

You forgot pathetic troll who comes here only to provoke responses

[Longtobefree]

You guys do know that those dashed vertical lines let you skip straight to the next primary post, right?
I would hate to think people came here just to whine - - - - - - - - - - - -

[Rich]

the school system banned masks that display "political, religious, sexual or any inappropriate symbols, gestures or statements that may be offensive, disruptive or deemed distractive"

Emphases added. IOW, the school system banned *all* masks. Here's hoping they get clobbered for *that*!

[Boxbbcar]

Yeah, was thinking when I read that, "Here's where they will get ruled against". Who gets to determine what is offensive or distractive? it is too open ended and subjective

[Brandybuck]

So years ago (decades actually) in the 90s, I returned to my alma matter as a substitute teacher. Substituting in the class room of my favorite teacher (who had since retired). This was in the heart of a very religious community.

First hour. I see all the students wearing Jesus t-shirts. Mostly Christian rock bands, but also various other Jesus Saves t-shirts. Huh. So I asked why. Was there a big revival in town I had not heard of?

Answer was, a couple days before someone had worn a Black Sabbath t-shirt, and the principle had sent him home to change. Grasping for an excuse to justify it, the principal pointed to the upside down cross as claimed it was a religious symbol and they weren't allowed. So God Bless them all, the Christian students decided to wear religious t-shirts in protest. And the principal, being an upstanding member of his own church, couldn't send the most of the student body home to change.

But as I said, this was the 90s. Back when we still have free speech.

[Formerly Cynical Asshole]

...this was the 90s. Back when we still have free speech.

And when kids were actually ballsy little punks willing to stand up for themselves and each other against bullshit like that. It seems like schools have done a much better job in the years since at conditioning to unquestioningly OBEY. I can't really picture "the kids these days" (Christ, I feel old just typing that) standing up for themselves.

[Longtobefree]

You do know that last week all those kids voted for Basement Bunker Biden, just like they were taught in college, right?

[Formerly Cynical Asshole]

The lawsuit says that the school system has allowed students to wear masks with sports teams logos and in support of the Black Lives Matter movement and calls the principal's actions a violation of Booth's First Amendment rights. Two days after the principal forced her to remove the mask, the school system banned masks that display "political, religious, sexual or any inappropriate symbols, gestures or statements that may be offensive, disruptive or deemed distractive to the school environment."

Somehow I highly doubt that they'll demand that students take off BLM masks despite their supposed ban on political symbols.

[Bill Godshall]

What would the Principle have done if the mask repeated Nietzsche's famous saying "God is Dead"?

As a libertarian atheist who supports the US Constitution, I've found that religious fundamentalists and conservatives love the Constitution's protections of their right to free speech, but not if/when those same rights apply to atheists, agnostics or others who don't believe in Devils, Angels, Gods or tooth fairies.

[Boxbbcar]

Actually, you would be surprised that some of us agree with you. I have frosted some of my fundamentalist friends in the fact that I do not support educator led prayer in school. Primarily because my child's religious education is not their job, it is mine. But also the fact that when many schools do not seem to be able to teach the basics of education adequately, why would I entrust this task to them? But beyond that, I have to explain to some that if you open the door for one, you must open it for ALL religious belief (and atheism is a religious belief). That means the whole spectrum. Now if my kid is stopped from praying before their meal, snack, a big test? Well then we will have a problem, because now you are interfering with her right to free exercise. Likewise if children are having a religious debate amongst themselves. The teacher may steer them away from it, but if it is not affecting the execution of class activities, they have no authority to do so.

[Sometimes Bad Is Bad]

Get your kids out of public school as fast as possible. It is a marxist indoctrination camp, not suitable for anyone except the stalinist faithful.

[con_fuse9]

Yeah, get them into religious schools so they can understand the world is 6000yrs old, and everything you learn in science and math is wrong, or from the devil himself.

[Árboles de la Barranca]

Modern public schools teach youngsters that Math and Science are white male supremacist constructions designed to keep women and minorities down. Take your choice.

[Minadin]

Back in my day, the religious private high school I went to received much higher marks in science, history, and math than the local public schools.

And, it cost about 35% as much per student.

[D-Pizzle]

You have no concept of Christian thought, do you? Let me give you a hand with that: The Big Bang Theory was first proposed by a Jesuit priest who, btw, suffered no consequences from the church because of it. There is a tiny minority of Christians who believe as you say, but extending this to all religious people is bigoted and wrong.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

"political, religious, sexual or any inappropriate symbols, gestures or statements that may be offensive, disruptive or deemed distractive to the school environment."

But just like BLM banners painted on streets, they were able to get their message out before the state entity realized that if you allow one message, you have to allow them all.

[m4019597]

This.

It’s not about free speech or Tinker. It’s about the unequal treatment of people who differ in opinion and expression from the left.

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Tinker was always a fave.

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