Politics

Are Americans Provoking Each Other Into Political Violence?

Failing a renewed national commitment to live and let live, we may be in for a long and bloody road.

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The proportion of Americans believing that it's at least somewhat justifiable for their political party to use violence to achieve its goals has risen from fewer than one in ten just three years ago to one in three now, according to polls. Meanwhile, predictions abound of disruptions around the election and of fighting in the years to come. After months of social unrest and with the country's political factions intent on mutual destruction, the U.S. looks at risk of becoming a failing democracy in which disputes are settled in the streets.

"Like a growing number of prominent American leaders and scholars, we are increasingly anxious that this country is headed toward the worst post-election crisis in a century and a half," wrote Larry Diamond of the Hoover Institution, Lee Drutman of New America, Tod Lindberg of the Hudson Institute, Nathan P. Kalmoe of Louisiana State University, and Lilliana Mason the University of Maryland in an October 1 piece in Politico. "Our biggest concern is that a disputed presidential election—especially if there are close contests in a few swing states, or if one candidate denounces the legitimacy of the process—could generate violence and bloodshed."

Drawing on polling data, the authors point out that support for the use of violence to achieve political goals has risen from 8 percent for both Democrats and Republicans in 2017 to 33 percent for Democrats and 36 percent for Republicans now. "In September, 44 percent of Republicans and 41 percent of Democrats said there would be at least 'a little' justification for violence if the other party's nominee wins the election," they add.

That squares with the insights of David Kilcullen, a former Australian Army officer and Bush (junior) administration counterterrorism advisor who warned in June that "America may be in what the CIA Guide to the Analysis of Insurgency calls 'incipient insurgency.'"

Kilcullen is unimpressed by reports that this year's protests have been mostly peaceful since, in his experience in countries including Iraq, "only a tiny minority—2 to 5 percent —of individuals in insurgencies, civil wars, or criminal gangs actually commit violence," and that's all it takes.

The U.S. Justice Department, too, is concerned "that toxic politics, combined with the potential uncertainty surrounding vote tallies, could lead to violent demonstrations or clashes between opposing factions" according to The Washington Post. As a result, the FBI is establishing a command center to deal with election-related disturbances.

It seems remarkable to contemplate modern Americans settling their differences through violence, but we've been a long time getting here. For decades, we've sorted ourselves according to our lifestyle preferences, and those preferences closely correspond with political affiliations. Adherents of our largest political factions enjoy lives increasingly separate from those with different views. Our neighbors largely live and think as we do so that we reinforce one another. Then, forced together by increasingly consequential contests for control of a government that reach ever deeper into life, Americans view opponents with growing hostility.

"Many Americans think people in the other party are ignorant, spiteful, evil and generally destroying the country," Axios reported of its polling results in 2018. Twenty-one percent "of Democrats think Republicans are evil, and about the same share of Republicans (23%) think Democrats are evil."

Last year, Pew Research found that "the level of division and animosity—including negative sentiments among partisans toward the members of the opposing party—has only deepened… For example, 55% of Republicans say Democrats are 'more immoral' when compared with other Americans; 47% of Democrats say the same about Republicans."

If you think your opponents are "evil" and "immoral," it's unlikely that you're going to view an election victory by them as legitimate and then willingly submit to the authority of such creatures. And then, when your allies are in power, it's tempting to punish the hated enemy with the tools that you control.

"It is more and more dangerous to lose an election," notes economist John Cochrane, a Senior Fellow of the Hoover Institution and an adjunct scholar of the Cato Institute who also fears political violence in the current environment. "Regulation has supplanted legislation, and dear colleague letters, interpretations, and executive orders have supplanted regulation… The vanishing ability to lose an election and not be crushed is the core reason for increased partisan vitriol and astounding violation of basic norms on both sides of our political divide."

Such tactics were on display in 2018 when New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo used state regulators to lean on banks and insurance companies to get them to cut ties with the NRA and other gun-rights organizations. "If the @NRA goes bankrupt because of the State of New York, they'll be in my thoughts and prayers. I'll see you in court," Cuomo tweeted in a tacit admission of weaponized regulatory power.

"If Cuomo can do this to the NRA, then conservative governors could have their financial regulators threaten banks and financial institutions that do business with any other group whose political views the governor opposes," said the ACLU, which supports the NRA in a lawsuit against New York. "The First Amendment bars state officials from using their regulatory power to penalize groups merely because they promote disapproved ideas."

As such examples accumulate, they feed "the burning conviction that the other side doesn't just want its opponents to lose political races, but rather wishes for them to exist in a state of permanent, dangerous (perhaps even deadly) subordination," conservative journalist David French observes in his recent book, Divided We Fall. He cautions that the country is in danger of fracturing as a result of its divisions.

If political violence is startling to Americans, the prospect of balkanization is even more so. But the possibility has been raised elsewhere, notably by the Transition Integrity Project, a high-profile Biden-leaning group of academics, journalists, and former government officials that war-gamed four possible presidential election scenarios with grim results. The group predicts "with a high degree of likelihood that November's elections will be marked by a chaotic legal and political landscape" including violence.

For one scenario, a Trump win, "the game play ended in a constitutional crisis, with threats of secession."

Honestly, a North America of statelets (presumably) more in-tune with the preferences of their inhabitants than is the current Leviathan sounds more tempting than escalating warfare among factions fearful of being crushed and living in a state of permanent subordination. Maybe we'd be happier as trading partners than as countrymen. But that doesn't have to be the only choice. We could, instead, learn once again to leave each other alone.

No, that doesn't mean liking one another—that seems highly unlikely anytime soon. Instead, we have to find a willingness to let other people live in ways, by values, and according to rules at odds with our own—so long as they return the favor. That is, we have to reacquire the ability to win elections without treating victory as an opportunity to crush our enemies. If we can do that, we'll also be able to lose elections without treating loss as an existential threat worthy of all-out resistance.

But it's difficult to see a path to a renewed national commitment to live and let live after years of working ourselves into the current frenzy. Instead, we may be in for a long and rough road of insurgency and bloodshed.

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    1. This poll shows Republicans are more willing to use violence to achieve political goals, so it’s clearly a faulty poll with bad methodology, motivated by political bias on the part of the pollsters, and uses Marxist math.

      1. Yeah people never lie.

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      2. 4 out of 5 dentists agree that Republicans are more willing to use violence to achieve their political goals… and pay their bills on time.

        1. Well said!
          To elaborate on that, you will note that (racist) America elected Obama twice.

          And not one window was broken or Downtown set afire.

          So go ahead with false equivalence in these articles

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      3. This poll shows Republicans are more willing to use violence to achieve political goals

        No, it doesn’t. It shows that more Republicans are willing to use violence to achieve political goals. That’s a significant difference from your characterization.

        1. To be fair, Chipper wasn’t going to honest about what it does or doesn’t mean regardless of getting the wording correct.

        2. It shows there is effectively no difference. If you have 100 Dems and 100 libs 97 of them match someone across the aisle. It’s revealing left wingers insist the three matter to the exclusion of the 97. It shows how weak the evidence supporting their beliefs is.

      4. Where is this “more willing” coming from? 41% – 44%? That looks like “essentially the same” when you account for margin of error.

        1. And, of course, if you look at the people who actually have used violence against their political opponents: Rose City Antifa threatening a parade because the local Republican party was participating resulting in the parades cancellation, Trump rallies attacked in San Jose or forced to cancel due to threats in Chicago, members of the Trump administration chased out of public places by angry mobs, angry mobs showing up at people’s houses, people being threatened or attacked for wearing pro-Trump clothing, and of course the attempted mass assassination of Republican lawmakers by Bernie Sanders volunteer James Hodgkinson.

          Are there any similar examples of Republicans doing anything like this to Democrats, especially in large numbers in an organized manner?

          1. The left promised that if Trump were elected, there would be more violence.
            He was, and the left delivered the violence.

          2. What about militia guys just arrested for planning to kidnap the governor of Michigan?

            1. It turns out these plotters are anarchists and hate Trump

              1. So they hate Trump? That must mean that they’re actually leftists then. But if they’re anarchists then they are actually far-right though…correct? Will one of you please spin the for us so that we know what to (group)think?

                1. …you do realize there are left wing anarchists, yes? Or are you playing stupid on purpose?

                  1. I used to think that too. But I’ve been “educated” by the folks here that assure me that right wing means less government while left wing means more government . It’s how they are able to group the Nazis, Commies, Fascists & Socialists together.

                    1. The key to squaring that circle is that left-wing “anarchists” of the sort who were threatening Whitmer actually do favor more government. Yeah, it makes no sense, but there you are.

                    2. “I used to think that too. But I’ve been “educated” by the folks here that assure me that right wing means less government while left wing means more government . It’s how they are able to group the Nazis, Commies, Fascists & Socialists together.”

                      It’s an odds-on bet that thinking isn’t among your skill sets; dragging strawmen around is.
                      Fuck off, lefty shit.

              2. That doesn’t even make sense. If they hate Trump (and by extension Republicans), why would they kidnap a Democratic governor?

                1. Because they live in the state she’s ruling?
                  Hatred of Trump and Rs wasn’t their motivation, it’s just a position they hold – that’s all anybody has been saying.
                  Their motivations for going after Whitmer are legitimate, though their manner of doing so isn’t necessarily.

                2. Isn’t it revealing Eric mocks people for saying hating Trump means you’re not on the right establishing that people can oppose people on their team. Then ten seconds later he turns around and argues the fact these people oppose a Dem must mean they can’t be against Trump.

                  Too funny.

            2. Planning to do something is different than actually following through with doing something.

              And one could at least make the argument that what Whitmer has done is ACTUALLY tyrannical.*

              *Not condoning any kind of violence in case you can’t tell the difference between pointing out an argument and support.

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        2. Politico..? Need anymore be said?

      5. Not necessarily. The Republicans could be saying that they will act in self defense in response to political violence. It like all polls depends on several things like these but not limited to them:
        1. Does the person answering the poll trust the pollster?
        2. What is the exact question and what are the available responses?
        3. The way the pollster asks the questions is also important.

        1. I don’t disagree, but you’re lost in the weeds. You’re holding scientism or scientifism to scientific standards.

          If I conducted a poll, collected all the data, and then threw it all in the garbage and wrote whatever I wanted, who’s to know? Is anybody ever going to call up the participants in my poll and say “Remember that poll you took a month ago? Do these sound like your answers?…”? No. Is anyone going to conduct a follow up poll to test the repeatability/veracity of my poll? Probably not. If two polls disagree, is anyone going to conduct a third to see which is right? No. If reality contradicts any/all results do those polls get redacted? No. Given all of the above, is there anything stopping any given polling manager or organization from collecting just the data they want or even no data at all and completely fabricating everything? Not really.

          There may be something to be said for real-time polling but conventional population polling is a sales/politicking/propaganda gimmick.

          1. Not to mention that the response rates for polls have been in the single digits for some years now, which completely guts the theoretical basis for expecting them to be accurate.

        2. Republicans are dangerous and violent if they are willing to act in self defense of themselves or their property. Democrats are ‘activists’ if they are willing to use violence to attack republicans or the property of republicans.

          Obviously something must be done about republican violence.

      6. The riots show differently shit for brains.

      7. So true! All I see are hateful Dems and the Media pumping up hate! We can see the results! You wear a red hat you can be sure to have a carry permit because of the Dem and Media spewing hate daily!

        1. “All I see are hateful Dems and the Media pumping up hate!”

          So change the channel.

          1. It’s on every channel, no matter how much bullshit leftist narrative is spewed.

            1. It really is, along with “go vote… for equality, justice, yadda yadda additional Dem buzzword”

              1. That bloody line in the sand looks like the eternal emnity between men and women. Wait for it. It is the eternal emnity between men and women.

          2. “So change the channel.”

            Yes, don’t watch NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, PBS, pretty much any news except FOX, in which case our newest lefty shit will accuse you of getting all your news from FOX!
            Eric? Fuck off and die.

      8. Considering the left is already using violence proves the polls are wrong

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  1. For example, 55% of Republicans say Democrats are ‘more immoral’ when compared with other Americans; 47% of Democrats say the same about Republicans.”

    ?! Is this the same Pew research that found that Democrats were like eleventy million percent more likely to unfriend someone on social media because of an icky political view?

    1. Republicans think Democrats are immoral for killing babies. Democrats think Republicans are immoral for not wanting to pay for killing babies. It’s usually stuff like that, not, “Do Democrats/Republicans double park?”

      1. Ultra-distilled version of American party politics:

        Democratic Party platform: regulate everything except abortion.

        Republican Party platform: regulate nothing except abortion.

  2. But the possibility has been raised elsewhere, notably by the Transition Integrity Project, a high-profile Biden-leaning group of academics, journalists, and former government officials that war-gamed four possible presidential election scenarios with grim results.

    Biden-leaning. Man… ok, that’s about as gentle a way as one could put it.

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    2. Yeah, when the “Republican” side of the group seems like the audience for the Bulwark (literally the ENTIRE audience)…

    3. Exactly. TIP wants pro-Trumpers who question mail-in ballot integrity shot by firing squad.

      1. What’s exciting about pro-Trumpers who question mail-in ballot integrity is that they’re discouraging older Republicans from voting. Older people are leery of going to the polls in person because of Covid-19 and they’re being needlessly scared about mail-in ballots. Net net is less votes for Trump. Woo-hoo!

        1. No, elderly republican voters are perfectly capable of both requesting mail-in ballots and distinguishing the difference from mass mail in voting.
          But you will try to cheat anyway, and this time you’ll face mortal consequences for it.

          1. Yep, I just received mail-in ballots for my Rep mother, and my Lib ass.

        2. “What’s exciting about pro-Trumpers who question mail-in ballot integrity is that they’re discouraging older Republicans from voting…”

          What’s boring is lefty shit propaganda.

    4. Perhaps there needs to be a similar non-leaning group called SIP or SCOTUS Integrity Project to run something like the following scenarios:
      1. Barrett not approved by Senate, Trump win.
      2. Barrett approved by Senate, Biden win and court packing succeeds.
      3. Barrett approved by Senate, Biden win and court packing fails.
      4. Barrett approved by Senate, Biden win and does not pack court.

    5. They needed to run another scenario where Trump wins and protests continue ad nauseam for years.

      1. As they have since 2/20/17. The left simply refuses to accept that they lost. LOST!

  3. “Failing a renewed national commitment to live and let live, we may be in for a long and bloody road.”

    Talk to your comrades on the left, bitch.

    1. Hey hey! Ho ho! Racist fascists have got to go!
      We can’t live in an America until Black trans lives matter and everyone is an anti-racist who supports trans people and people of color.

      1. AKA being a decent person.

        1. Fuck off Tulpa.

        2. chipper thinks racists are “decent people”

        3. A lot of Republicans can’t keep their fucking noses out of other people’s lives and like to tell them how to live their lives whether it affects anyone else or not. Both sides are guilty of it.

          1. It’s hardly equivalent. If the republicans had their way, America would be like it was in the 50’s. If democrats had their way, America would be like it was in the USSR in the 50’s.

            1. Republicans want 90% marginal tax rates, air that makes your skin itch, bodies of water like Lake Erie on the threshold of death, commies under every bed, schoolkids being taught to “duck and cover” under their desks, cars that get 10 miles per gallon and aren’t equipped with the seatbelts that have saved hundreds of thousands of lives, 3 television channels on black and white TVs, segregation by race, and government intrusion into private sex lives. Sounds wonderful!

              1. Yes, this never happened when Democrats were in charge.

              2. EdG
                Is.
                Full.
                Of.
                Shit.

        4. Provoking EACH OTHER? “Let’s be clear.” “Act first, Think later.”
          The perpetrators of government-and-political-party-sanctioned intimidation, race-baiting, looting, arson, rape, and murder are trying to provoke “the others” into defending themselves.

        5. “AKA being a decent person.”

          Is that what YOU call some whiny, mask-wearing ninny spouting PC bullshit?

        6. Why is it necessary for a political movement to change the character of people? Why is it seen as even being possible? And why do people think that self-righteous harassment will make “the sinners” repent, see the error of their ways, and join the Social Justice Church Triumphant? The Ulster Scot in me says, “Fuck right off, ya bastards!”

    2. The premise of leftism is that “live and let live” is literally evil.
      If a leftist is upset about anything, it HAS to be made your problem too.

      1. It is interesting that on major university campuses, where the administration, faculty, and admissions department are totally under the sway of radical marxists, you find 80% of women, transsexuals, and gay, straight and bisexual students are victims of violent on-campus sexual assault in their first year on campus — according to statistics provided by activist groups.

        And they want to make it “your” problem, while on the other hand, Ant-fa activists seek to decriminalize rape (if you get raped, don’t call the police).

      2. The premise of rightism is that “live and let live” is literally evil. Want to smoke a joint in your own home? Evil! Want to engage in sex acts other than missionary? Evil! Want to skip pledging allegiance and saying prayers at school? Evil!

        What I find insane about rightists is that they want to control every aspect of life while complaining bitterly about every aspect of life being controlled.

        1. If you pitch a bitch about ultra-violent left-wingers — operating under the auspices of friendly local and state governments — intimidating, burning, and looting your businesses and neighborhoods, and instigating murder, rape, and mayhem, does that make you nothing but a “bitter complainer”?

          Not to say right wingers don’t like the idea of control, but face reality, who is in control of these jurisdictions today? The sixties revolution was a success, they are in charge.

          On a national level, ironically, Bush-era neocons support the candidates of the looters.

          1. EdG is just another delusional bitch leftist calling on tropes that haven’t been relevant in 20 years

        2. “What I find insane about rightists is that they want to control every aspect of life while complaining bitterly about every aspect of life being controlled.”

          “California Gov. Jerry Brown (D) said Sunday that he is not convinced legalizing marijuana is a good idea because the population needs to “stay alert.”
          “The problem with anything, a certain amount is okay,” Brown said on NBC’s Meet the Press. “But there is a tendency to go to extremes. And all of a sudden, if there’s advertising and legitimacy, how many people can get stoned and still have a great state or a great nation? The world’s pretty dangerous, very competitive. I think we need to stay alert, if not 24 hours a day, more than some of the potheads might be able to put together…”
          https://www.huffpost.com/entry/jerry-brown-marijuana_n_4885455
          Goddam right-wing moonbeam!

          EdG
          Is.
          Full.
          Of.
          Shit.

        3. It’s revealing EdG can’t even make up plausible comparisons to left wingers making political fealty a job requirement or intimidating random people in public.

          People on the extreme right aren’t necessarily good or right. But (1) they’re miles better than their counterparts, and (2) the far left is actually implementing it’s program because they control essentially all our public institutions.

  4. I shudder to think there might be violent protests, complete with looting and burning and attacking of opponents. If the Republicans ever start that sort of shit I suppose the Left would have no choice but to reply in kind. Good thing the Left has so far been tolerant enough to refrain from any of that sort of thing.

    1. “Of Democrats who identify as “very liberal,” 26 percent said there would be “a great deal” of justification for violence if their candidate loses the presidency…”

      “Of Republicans who identify as “very conservative,” 16 percent said they believe there would be “a great deal” of justification for violence if the GOP candidate loses…”

      Looks like the extreme Left is more interested in violence than the extreme right.

      1. That’s not how you ‘both sides’, Jerry.

      2. What’s the margin of error in your whataboutism?

        1. Not mine. Direct quotes from the study.

        2. What’s the daily limit of bullshit you can deliver?

  5. Hmmmm…..

    Who is rioting for months on end again? Who did $2 billion in property damage? Which side had someone trying to shoot up a baseball field full of the other side? Need I continue?

    1. Which side killed Heather Heyer by ramming her with an assault muscle car, the Dodge Charger, and also threatened to kidnap and potentially murder Gov. Gretchen Whitmer?

      1. Those are isolated incidents with no bearing on any sort of trend or prevailing attitude by patriots, unlike all the riots, which were approved by every single BLM supporter in an nation-wide unanimous referendum.

        1. To shop owner through smashed windows: “Those people don’t support our movement.”

          Man who just lost his livelihood: “Well…. they’re with you!”

          *silence*

        2. One of them was done by anarchists. When they allroach a 7% acceptable violence rate you can false equivalence. Hell, if they hit 1 million in property damage.

        3. I bet you’re one of those guys who thinks that if you aren’t sucking Trump’s dick that you’re not a patriot

          1. If you’re supporting totalitarian Marxists, you’re not a patriot.
            If you’re actively aiding them in trying to seize absolute power, you need to be eliminated.

          2. Stupid old shitbag shows up now and then with lefty bullshit.
            Fuck off and die.

        4. Ah, yes, Burn Loot and Murder.

      2. https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1314285414962925569

        “They are oppressing you for a paycheck. If you’re still supporting law enforcement, you are supporting the people who are enforcing slavery on everyone else.”

        This is Brandon Caserta, a man who was arrested for a plot to kidnap Gov. Whitmer. He’s a police hating anarchist.

        1. https://twitter.com/robbystarbuck/status/1314267058339819520

          This is a video of Brandon Caserta, one of the ringleaders of the group of men arrested for a plot where the group planned to kidnap Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Caserta has an anarchist flag behind him and in YouTube videos trashes police. He’s not a Republican, he’s an anarchist.

          1. The tattoos and piercings make him a law-and-order Republican.

            1. A black flag with an encircled red ‘A’ means “I support the republic.”

      3. You really are that ignorant.

      4. Which side killed Heather Heyer by ramming her with an assault muscle car, the Dodge Charger, and also threatened to kidnap and potentially murder Gov. Gretchen Whitmer?

        Antifa killed Heather Heyer?

        1. assault muscle car
          It was black with the thing that goes up.

          1. Nobody needs 6000 rpm.

      5. threatened to kidnap and potentially murder Gov. Gretchen Whitmer

        How many of Gretchen’s ribs did they break when they tackled her?

      6. >>and also threatened to kidnap and potentially murder Gov. Gretchen Whitmer?

        that was anarchists

      7. “…and also threatened to kidnap and potentially murder Gov. Gretchen Whitmer?”

        From the latest I’ve seen, anarchists that don’t support either Trump or Biden.

      8. An anarchist, anti-Trump militia was in on the kidnapping plot, dumbass.

      9. Regarding Whitmer, an anti-Trump anarchist. Regarding HH, I was told at an early age not to play in traffic. She was a victim of bad parenting, I suppose.

      10. Heyer was killed by a socialist from a different far left faction.

        1. I see your screen name is half right.

          1. I see
            You.
            Are.
            Full.
            Of.
            Shit.

  6. “could generate violence and bloodshed”

    As opposed to the reign of civic peace we’re currently enjoying?

    1. To be fair, it is mostly civil peace right now.

  7. Election violence, settling differences in the streets; article suggests we are going the way of East Africa.

    1. It’s gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
      There’s nothing that a hundred men or more could ever do
      I bless the rains down in Africa
      Gonna take some time to do the things we never had

      1. And wild dogs cry out in the night.

        Those are some messed up lyrics. Like the Manfred Mann song [it was bad enough but I thought it was “wrapped up like a douche to a runner in the night.”] Funny imagery.

        1. Like the Manfred Mann song

          Bruce Springsteen, actually. Manfred Mann liked it because he was primarily an instrumentalist and the lyrics make no sense whatsoever, but sound cool.

        2. but I thought it was “wrapped up like a douche to a runner in the night.”

          Also what I always heard, until I saw the lyric sheet.

        3. it was bad enough but I thought it was “wrapped up like a douche to a runner in the night.”

          For the longest time I thought it was “wrapped up like a douche another boner in the night.”

          1. And both versions left your imagination to fill in the missing words.

        4. I thought it was “Ripped up like a Duchenne in the roller in the night.”

        5. And Manfred Mann is also African.

          1. “She looked good she looked fine then I nearly lost my mind.”

    2. Dude the intelligence community effected a coup that impeached the President without effectively removing him from power. Arguably the least hawkish President in the last 2 decades if not the last half century. People have been rioting in the streets since (*looks at calendar*) 2015. Regional Governors are usurping their authority and locking people in their homes. A Supreme Court nominee was put through a show trial for something nobody could’ve possibly proved he did or didn’t do 30 yrs. ago…

      We’ve been a banana republic for years now.

      1. Point taken; I take comfort that I live in the woods and have a surplus of deer and turkey around me [at least for now]. And mobs would not fare well here.

  8. Are Americans Provoking Each Other Into Political Violence?

    Ah, yes. Leftists are locking people in their homes and throwing rocks through the windows and the right is provoking them to it by owning a home and having the audacity to leave it. Both sides.

    1. Those leftists couldn’t help but notice through an open window viewed through binoculars that the right wingers don’t wear masks when they use the bathroom. They had no choice.

    2. And wave a firearm at someone trying to kill them. The horror.

  9. Packing the courts to make Socialism a constitutional right (you don’t think they’re going to stop at just making it allowable, do you?) is going to start the bloodshed, if the Executive Order banning all private guns doesn’t.

    Lots of eyes have been opened to the PoPo during lockdown; they’re not getting any benefit of the doubt if they try to enforce this.

    1. “Packing the courts to make Socialism a constitutional right (you don’t think they’re going to stop at just making it allowable, do you?)”

      What isn’t forbidden is compulsory.

  10. Look, it takes two to make a fight. As long as one side remains calm and takes their beating like a man, it’s not technically a fight. It’s not a fight until they resist the beating.

    1. STOP RESISTING!!!! STOP RESISTING!!!!

  11. if anyone is provoking it’s the media but I don’t believe in “words of incitement” so …

    1. The media IS inciting people to violence, I’m just not ready to say any of it is legally actionable. The best thing we can do is recognize it and then mercilessly mock the media by continuing to preside over their financial ruin.

      1. The best thing we can do is burn the media to the ground.

      2. if anyone is provoking it’s the media

        Let’s look at Reason over the last three days:

        10.9.2020 4:10 PM – Britschgi condemns Trump for using negotiating tactics
        10.9.2020 3:55 PM – Rutzick says it’s a mistake to let Trump have the nuclear football.
        10.9.2020 2:30 PM – Tuccille says conservatives are provoking the left into looting and burning down cities and also both sides.
        10.9.2020 9:36 AM – ENB frets that a conservative court may not be keen on baby-killing pills
        10.9.2020 8:30 AM – Robby says Trump’s Hitlerian rhetoric probably-maybe-kinda didn’t prompt Witch Gretchen’s kidnap plot, but agrees that the lefty anarchist plotters were totally MAGA.
        10.8.2020 2:05 PM – Sullum faintly praises Pence for not being a “petty, intolerant, excitable asshole” like Trump.
        10.8.2020 1:50 PM – Monticello says that despite all the evidence you’re crazy if you think google is biased against conservatives. It’s all weird accidents and stuff.
        10.8.2020 1:39 PM – Suderman again bitches that Trump doesn’t have a big government health program.
        10.8.2020 12:05 PM – Shackford notes that Trump refuses to debate just because they suddenly changed all the rules in a surprise move, the wuss.
        10.8.2020 11:50 AM – Boehm praises Biden for maybe-possibly removing Trump’s evil anti-China tariffs if president.
        10.8.2020 10:04 AM – ENB fumes that Pence denied that systemic racism exists. “Pence is in no place to be pointing fingers about inhumane or overly punitive responses.”
        10.8.2020 12:15 AM – Bailey lies and says that Biden totally won’t ban fracking, despite Biden saying (many, many times) “I’m going to ban fracking”.
        10.7.2020 11:59 PM – Binion coos that (vice) President Harris is totally gonna legalize weed, man.
        10.7.2020 1:46 PM – Binion condemns Trump for taking credit for a thing he did.
        10.7.2020 1:28 PM – Welch thinks JoJo is totally beating Trump
        10.7.2020 10:20 AM – Britschgi condemns Trump for a mean tweet that totally ruined the Democrats chance to throw $71 billion into the fire
        10.7.2020 8:00 AM – ENB says “Trump’s administration is once again trying to make it harder for high-skilled immigrant workers to come here”, because Covid only matters if Conservatives are doing stuff.
        10.7.2020 6:00 AM – Ciaramella condemns Trump for stopping mostly peaceful protesters from burning and looting federal property

        Now imagine CNN.

    2. What about calls to violence?

      1. nobody has to answer them.

  12. There is an important difference between opposing the government and targeting our fellow citizens.

    “When a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.–Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.”

    —-Declaration of Independence

    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    —-Second Amendment

    What these people were trying to do to the Governor of Michigan was wrong because the overwhelming majority of the people of Michigan did not want their state government to be overthrown–and hence removing a legitimate governor was itself an oppressive act. That being said, overthrowing an oppressive government is, in fact, supported by both the Declaration of Independence and the Second Amendment to the Constitution of the United States–even if it was’t supported in this case. Furthermore, there is a legitimate argument to make that we are morally obligated to overthrow our government when it is oppressive–even if it wasn’t so in this case.

    On the other hand, there is no legitimate legal or ethical justification for targeting our fellow citizens with looting and arson.

    Targeting the government for revolution can be justified under certain circumstances when the government has become authoritarian and oppressive and violates our rights.

    Targeting our fellow citizens with looting and arson is unjustifiable–regardless of whether the government is violating our rights.

    Before we can have a serious conversation about when violence is or isn’t justified, we need to be clear on the differences between targeting the government and targeting our fellow citizens.

    1. Targeting our fellow citizens with looting and arson is unjustifiable–regardless of whether the government is violating our rights.

      Except when your entire political movement defines your fellow citizens as racist Nazis.

    2. “What these people were trying to do to the Governor of Michigan was wrong because the overwhelming majority of the people of Michigan did not want their state government to be overthrown–and hence removing a legitimate governor was itself an oppressive act. ”

      Are you sure a majority of the Colonists wanted to separate from England?

      1. “Are you sure a majority of the Colonists wanted to separate from England?”

        After the Sons of Liberty went full anti-fa by propagandizing victims of the Boston Massacre like George Floyd [Crispus Attucks], and the British responded to the Boston Tea Party with the Intolerable Acts and bottling up Boston Harbor?

        Maybe.

        Regardless, the colonial patriots had more support for the American revolution than the handful of people who just tried to “overthrow” the governor of Michigan.

        1. P.S. The British were standing in the way of the colonial expansion into the Ohio valley, too, in the aftermath of the French and Indian War (AKA Seven Years War)–with all that land just spoiling to be settled by the colonists. And we haven’t even started talking about the impositions on trade–apart from the Tea Act, bailing out the East India Company, etc., etc. There were plenty of people who were glad to see the British go when they went. I don’t think Michigan is like that. They may prefer a different governor next time, but they don’t want to get rid of the state government.

    3. “What these people were trying to do to the Governor of Michigan was wrong because the overwhelming majority of the people of Michigan did not want their state government to be overthrown”

      If by “overthrown” you mean Whitmer removed from office, I’m not sure you’re right about that. Only banning going out and collecting recall petitions has been keeping her in office.

      But these “anarchist” yahoos are also wrong because the legal process was working against Whitmer.

    4. What these people were trying to do to the Governor of Michigan was wrong because the overwhelming majority of the people of Michigan did not want their state government to be overthrown–and hence removing a legitimate governor was itself an oppressive act.

      All good except for this. We are republic because the FF recognized the tyranny of the majority. It doesn’t matter how many Nazis want all the minorities dead, the minorities get to defend themselves within the law. Talking about and even plotting a kidnapping isn’t really a crime (unless you think collusion is a crime).

      The thing that makes this and many of these other ‘foiled plots’ stupid is that if the FBI were really that well embedded and that morally/legally motivated, it would be dead simple to tip off Whitmer and nab kooks like these on her property. Instead, they’re going to show up in court with a bunch of “They said mean things.” evidence. But by that point, no one will care because the political stunt will/won’t have worked.

  13. So let me get his straight, Tucille. You’re all concerned about possible violence…violence…and the one example you use, of course, is litigation against the NRA. Your concern about violence is about litigation. Laughable.

    If you want to digress to politics instead of real violence, maybe you could have started with the President of the United States demanding the arrest of his opponent in the election, as well as the previous President, both of which have never been charged with anything. Just think about that Tucille…it used to be the stuff of banana republics. It’s now the stuff of apple pie republics.

    Have you paid any attention at all in the last 24 hours? 13 domestic terrorists were arrested with plans to kidnap a governor, take her to a remote location, put her on “trial,” with the result being what, Tucille, milk and cookies? In addition, there were plans to VIOLENTLY storm the State House to start a civil war.

    Oh that’s right. To you, it’s militias and not terrorists, and militiamen carrying war weapons not terrorists.

    Wake up. Your concern is clearly BS.

    1. If you want to digress to politics instead of real violence, maybe you could have started with the President of the United States demanding the arrest of his opponent in the election, as well as the previous President, both of which have never been charged with anything.

      Quite the spicy take. I guess this means the bankers didn’t actually commit securities fraud before the 2007 crash, because no one ever charged them with criminal actions.

      1. One did get arrested, rock head. Kareem Serageldin. The rest didn’t. Did you see President Obama demanding their arrest? Which is the whole point. We aren’t a nation that lets Trump and you decide who should be arrested. Take a few months to think about it.

        1. Didn’t you out this sock yesterday? Why are you still running it Shreek?

          1. I’m glad you follow my every word, Rabbi! Did you ever see me respond to any of your comments other than today? No. Know why? You’re a blithering idiot.

            But keep on keeping on!

            Best,
            Jack

            1. I’m sorry you’re upset you accidentally outed your sock yesterday Shreek but why take it out on me!

            2. “You’re a blithering idiot”

              Oh wow PB is a racist and a pedo.

              1. Pretty sure that isn’t turd.

            3. Jackass, I’m glad you keep avoiding an answer to how your magic incantations will make those nasty wildfires go away.

              Worst,
              Sevo

        2. One did get arrested, rock head. Kareem Serageldin.

          Oooo, it’s not often we see a Fallacy of the Lonely Fact exercised. Good job, goofy!

    2. 13 domestic terrorists were arrested with plans to kidnap a governor, take her to a remote location, put her on “trial,” with the result being what, Tucille, milk and cookies? In addition, there were plans to VIOLENTLY storm the State House to start a civil war.

      Yes, those anti-cop, anti-Trump domestic terrorists. Meanwhile, your allies have actually been burning down and destroying property for months, along with the occasional murder and subsequent disinfecting of the crime scene.

      Don’t call it a grave, it’s the future you chose.

      1. Good to see you admitted they were domestic terrorists! Maybe Tucille can learn something from you.

        1. Considering they’re anti-cop, anti-Trump anarchists, that should go without saying.

    3. I like your “Sarah Palin’s Buttplug 2” persona better.

      1. How goes it today, Rabbi?

        1. Good Shreek, why you still running an outed sock?

    4. Have we figured out who’s sock Jackoff Ace is yet? He whines like a Baby jeffy, but I am not spotting the usual tics.

    5. It appears that the plot to kidnap a governor was your side.

    6. “Then, forced together by increasingly consequential contests for control of a government that reach ever deeper into life, Americans view opponents with growing hostility.” This is Tucille’s underlying point. I don’t see the election of Joe Biden as just moving some deck chairs around on the ship of state. I see a Democrat takeover as a grave threat to my personal liberty and it’s difficult for me to see his supporters as rational human beings. The NRA case illustrates this point very well. Government has expanded exponentially over the last century to the point that a governor can brag about using the power of the state to crush his political opponents. We’ve witnessed the same shameless abuse of state power in the coup attempt on Trump and the complete abrogation of individual rights in the Corona hoax. We’ve also seen 90% of rioters who participated in the destruction of private have all charges against them dismissed by state actors. The unchecked power of the state is very serious business and it’s not surprising that a minority will take up arms to defend themselves against it.

      1. This is what did it for me: We’ve witnessed the same shameless abuse of state power in the coup attempt on Trump and the complete abrogation of individual rights in the Corona hoax.

        Once my free exercise rights went ‘bye, bye’ in the People’s Republic of NJ, I knew we had a huge problem.

        After POTUS Trump wins election, task #1 must be to shrink the size of government.

  14. Which Reason commenter was Brandon Caserta?

  15. The far right loons who beleve every word that comes it of Trump’s mouth are what scare me. Biden could win in a landslide and Trump will rile up all his inbred, braindead supporters.

    If only they’d attack mormons. Two birds with one stone. Some far right loons go to jail, and dead mormons. Win win!

    Still praying Lee and McDaniel die of Covid. The only good mormon is a dead mormon.

    1. You’re a disgusting individual. I’m not a Mormon and don’t want to be one, but calling for all of them to die is evil. Saying “the only good [insert hated group here] is a dead [insert same group here]” is a call for murder and is inherently wrong.

      1. Serious question. Would you respond to an anti-Semitic diatribe with, “I’m not a Jew and don’t want to be one”?

        The tone of your post is like something someone who lived in the village outside Auschwitz would say about Jews after they lost the war.

        1. Are you LDS Chuck? I know you won’t answer because your a goddamn coward like all Mormons. Fuck mormons! You take the rantings of a pedo con artist as gospel. What you believe is goddamn nonsense. Stop forcing it on others and breeding like goddamn rabbits.

          Fuck mormons. They need to be EXTERMINATED if they won’t stop forcing their BS on everyone!

          I’m a goddamn fucking patriot for bringing awareness to those stupid evil fucks.

          1. Oh, look, a guy on the internet screaming about murdering people who refuse to participate in his atheist/progressive fantasies. I am not even remotely frightened.

            So I take it a missionary fucked your girlfriend or wife or something?

            1. Mother.
              And she keeps telling this slimy piece of lefty shit how wonderful it was.

            2. I’m not an atheist you fucking moron. I do know that your god doesn’t exist because if there is a god he wouldn’t make a goddamn pedo con artist a prophet! I used to live in Utah and every Mormon I met was the fucking same. Cowardly fucking bigots who wanna force their nonsense beliefs on everyone.
              I know how you pieces of trash operate.
              It has little to do with politics, but 90% of Mormons are far right fucking loons. Authoritarian pieces of shit.

              You’re a stupid goddamn pussy Chuck. Please admit your whole religion is a crock of shit!
              You won’t because you’re too cowardly, stupid, and stubborn like all goddamn Mormons!

              Fuck you Mormon waste of goddamn life!

              1. Wow.. if you’re not an atheist are you agnostic? because if you are a person of faith in god then I dont see much evidence of it giving you any peace.
                You seem, well, uncontrollably angry. maybe try the serenity prayer?

                1. Serenity prayer? Take your 12 step bs and go home.

                  1. lol .. well there’s always anger management class… or the gentle intervention of a swat team for when you finally crack and hole up in your … i dont know.. compound? you have problems man.

                    1. I do have a problem. It’s the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Theyre trying to take over the country and force their stupid, wrong beliefs on everyone. They can’t be reasoned with. Mormons are really stubborn and just ignore criticism. They’re never wrong in their minds. I’m not gonna sit back while they destroy the country. No one is forcing them to worship con artists and pedophiles. They try to convert everyone they come in contact with. Unfortunately there’s a lot of stupid people that’ll buy their horseshit beliefs. They also insist on having as many kids as possible. They wanna take over.

                      Mike Lee thinks we can fight climate change by procreating. That’s scary because it’s so fucking stupid. These people don’t deserve your sympathy. They deserve to be ridiculed for their nonsense beliefs, and they deserve to be harassed for harassing others.

                      Mormons are also super greedy too. The ten percent of it’s members income goes to young men’s vacation(missionaries) the far right political causes(prop 8 for example) and lining their pockets.(I know a lot of religions take members income. My point is the LDS Church uses the money for mostly bullshit)

                      It’s funny to see “libertarians” defending Mormons. Most Mormons aren’t libertarian. They’re the type of social conservatives that wanna force their beliefs on everyone.
                      They’re rotten to their core.

                    2. KillAllRednecks
                      October.11.2020 at 9:39 pm
                      “I do have a problem…”

                      As a fucking pile of lefty shit and a bigot besides, you got ‘way more than “a” problem.
                      The first is with your parents; they should have aborted a monster like you.
                      fuck off and die.

          2. Maybe move out of Utah? Can’t say my my life has been affected by Mormons at all.

            1. I got the fuck out of there as soon as I could. I didn’t live in Salt Lake, but Salt Lake City is the worst city in the fucking country. I don’t know why they held the vice presidential debate in that shithole.

        2. Anyone with a brain doesn’t wanna be Mormon Chuck because what you believe is so fucking godamn stupid. Joseph Smith was a con artist pedophile who pulled the book of Mormon out of his con artist ass. He “revealed polygamy” so he could fuck 15 year olds. YOU WORSHIP THAT ASSHOLE! There’s been zero archeological evidence supporting his ramblings. What you believe is goddamn stupid and you wanna force it on everyone.

          Die a miserable death you Mormon piece of goddamn trash!
          You won’t reply because ALL MORMONS ARE COWARDS!!!

          1. There is no point in arguing anything with a mind closed to prejudice. So, please, just fuck off.

            1. You’re the closed minded one you mormon fucking prick. You ignore me because you know I’ll point out how goddamn stupid your fucking religion is. IT WAS FOUNDED BY A PEDO CON ARTIST! You’re like all Mormons, so fucking stubborn. You’re never wrong?

              You’re also a big fucking pussy Chuck.

              1. ^Hey look! It’s Mini-Hitler!!! I knew these kinds would show up sooner or later on our ever-growing path to socialism.

                1. Goddamn your dumb. Mormons have more in common with Nazis than me. Especially since it’s a right wing ideology and most mormons are far right loons.

                  God damn you people are dumb. You’re sticking up for people who want to force their stupid goddamn fucking bullshit religion on you.

                  1. Sorry Mini-Hitler; You’re biased hatred and name-calling isn’t even important enough to address.

                    1. Then why did you reply moron who doesn’t know basic history? You’re defending someone who worships a pedo ya know? You’re not exactly on the moral high ground.

                    2. Fuck off and die, shitbag.

    2. You are a truly awful person.

      1. I don’t know, seems like a happy and well adjusted individual to me. /sarc

        1. You all are stupi as shit for defending people who want to force their wrong, BS religion on you.

          Fuck mormons and fuck their defenders!

          1. Nobody is forcing their religion on me.

            1. I used to live in Utah. I know how those fuckers work. They’re the most stubborn assholes on earth. Will never admit they’re wrong. When they have enough power (which they will if we don’t stop them because they breed like rabbits and try to convert everyone they contact) they’ll ban coffee, tobacco, booze, and other things they don’t like. They’ll think they’re doing everyone a favor and be pissed if people fight back.

              Ive known so many goddamn Mormons and they all were the same.

              We need to stop them. Why defend them? Anyone dumb enough to believe the shit they believe shouldn’t be having kids. Let alone dozens like those Mormon cunts do.

              FUCK MORMONS AND FUCK THEIR DEFENDERS!

              1. “I used to live in Utah.”

                Pretty sure the residents of any state would be happy to see the last of a fucking pile of lefty shit who’s a bigot besides.
                Fuck off and die.

          2. I’ve never in my life had anyone try to force Mormonism on me. Not once.

            But you seem to want them slaughtered for their incorrect religious beliefs.

            Do you see any disconnect there?

            1. I used to livin Utah and thoe assholes won’t stp till he whole country is run by Mormons. That’s when they’ll force their goddamn bs beliefs on us. I know how those evil fucking scumbags think.

              The only good Mormon is MILLIONS OF DEAD MORMONS!

              1. Get help. Seriously.

                1. You need help if you’re defending fucking pedo con artist worshippers.

                  1. Please, don’t get help. We can hope your disease is fatal.

              2. Good God! Get a shrink!

    3. This is another one of Shreeks handles, like “Jackand Ace”

    4. Look at this guy, the great-great-great grandson of the former Governor of Missouri, Lilburn “Mormon-hater” Boggs

      1. I know you’re LDS chuck, but you won’t answer because you’re a goddamn fucking coward.

        The only good Mormon is a dead mormon!

        1. If you want to bag you some Mormons, I hear they got some over at the Bundy ranch. Everybody knows those Bundy’s are just a bunch pussies who are all talk.

          1. Mormons are pussies, and it’s not hard outsmarting them. Anyone who believes the bullshit you believe is a fucking moron.

            You won’t say your Mormon because you’re a goddamn coward like all Mormons.

            You’re just a big fucking pussy Chuck.

        2. Guessing you’re a big fan of Janet Reno.

  16. At least none of the libertarians who work at Reason would ever, ever do something as blatantly irresponsible as advocate political violence. Never in a million years!! Oh shit, hold on just a second…

    “Now would be a good time to throw a big cocktail party in New York or Washington, and invite every single conservative writer you know. #RedWedding2”

    -Matt Welch

    https://twitter.com/mattwelch/status/1102654202545913857?s=12

    For those few of you out there who aren’t at all familiar with Game of Thrones and thus don’t get the reference, the “Red Wedding” was a surprise ambush/massacre.

    1. Welch is such a shit bag.

  17. Instead, we have to find a willingness to let other people live in ways, by values, and according to rules at odds with our own—so long as they return the favor.

    This is the crux of the matter. FTR, I commend Tuccille for really nailing this one. I know I am pretty harsh with Unreason writers, but I have to give credit to Tuccille for this sentence. Because he has captured the true heart of the problem.

    The fact is, progressives by their ideology will never leave us alone. Progressives will never return the favor. Never. Progressives want to manage and control every aspect of our life. What you can think, what you can say, where you work, what you buy, how you pray; they just want total control. Their insatiable appetite for more regulation and more money and more control and more power destroys any willingness on their part to adopt a ‘live and let live’ orientation. I mean, think about it. If you dominate and control, why ‘live and let live’? It makes sense, logically.

    Progressives show their truly malignant nature through their actions that destroy human autonomy, and crush the human spirit.

    So what compromise is really possible here? I see none.

    1. What a lot of people do, mostly on the left but a few on the right, is build up their enemies as a way of building up themselves. If Trump is just a President you don’t like and whose policies you disagree with, then you are just another partisan with an opinion. But if Trump is as one of my otherwise reasonable liberal friends told me a while back “the worst thing that has ever happened to this country”, then you are not a partisan, you are fighting to save America and part of some great cause fighting great evil. People get addicted to this fantasy life where they are part of some great resistance against evil.

      It is pathetic. But it is also dangerous. Eventually people start to believe the lies they have been telling themselves. And the whole thing becomes not just a way to feel important but a rationalization for supporting or doing something horrible. The greater the evil you think you are fighting, the more drastic and evil the methods you will rationalize.

      1. I think we got to this point, John = Eventually people start to believe the lies they have been telling themselves. And the whole thing becomes not just a way to feel important but a rationalization for supporting or doing something horrible. The greater the evil you think you are fighting, the more drastic and evil the methods you will rationalize.

        I see more and more of this. The rationalization of malignant behavior toward people with a different political party. Shockingly, I have heard this in my own shul, coming out of the mouths of congregants. I don’t think the isolation we are all experiencing is helping matters any.

        1. Same quote XY keyed on. I think many, on both the Left and Right, are waiting for the first atrocity to kick off to tell themselves it’s now OK to do what you until then were only thinking about doing.

          Your point’s taken about building your enemy up into a boogeyman, as a way of building yourself up too.

          1. The left has been building this up for at least 20 years. Millennials have lived our entire adult lives with the message that the right is not bad, but lesser, both morally and intellectually… and evil.
            Raise an entire generation to be filled with hatred, you get a generation with a significant number of self righteous psychotics.

      2. It’s because the left are basically all some variety of utilitarian, whereas on the right deontological ethics are more common.

        For deontological ethics, a wrong act is wrong even if you expect good consequences of it: You don’t steal to give to charity, for instance.

        In utilitarian ethics, the consequences are everything, the end literally does justify the means. Your typical utilitarian would think, “What else could?”.

        The perverse consequence of utilitarian ethics is that, when you’re in a conflict with someone, the worse they are, the worse you yourself can be. If you’re fighting against Mother Theresa, what possible tactic could be moral? If you’re fighting Hitler, you can lie, murder, and steal, and it’s all good, because it’s to avert an even greater evil.

        So, the worse they imagine the opposition to be, the worse they can be themselves, and still feel justified.

        They imagine that Trump is Hitler, because it frees them to be Pol Pot. That’s what is going on here. They’re never going to give up on imagining the opposition is evil, because it’s liberating.

    2. There is a great thread that was posted on Instapundit:
      https://twitter.com/Doc_0/status/1314546946661666817

      The whole point is that for democracy to work, you need to constrain the government. A democracy that is unrestrained will always be violent because it is easier for blocks of people to silence their enemies rather than convince them.

      1. Yes. And people resort to violence because the price of losing is so high

      2. “A democracy that is unrestrained will always be violent” — thus is why we are a Constitutional Republic NOT a democracy.

        As soon as the nation can all agree on WHAT kind of country we are; perhaps then 99% of today’s arguments will disappear under one term UN-Constitutional.

    3. We could let the red cities secede from the United States.
      Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, New York could all be let Go peacefully.
      Then the rest of us normal people in the Free United States could live our lives in and live and let live manner.

      And the leftists can run out of other peoples’ money and guillotine each other

      1. I fear Socialists will try to ?immigrate? to the “greener pastures” of red states sececession before guillotining all of “each other”. History seems to show this conquer and consume of communism/socialism pretty predictably.

    4. This is the key. Progressives don’t WANT to live and let live. These people surround restaurant patrons and demand they make statements of loyalty to the cause, and then verbally or physically assault them if they don’t. And that rot is so deep in the left, there are very few “normal” democrats anymore. I had plenty of liberal friends prior to 2016, but they’re all gone now, mostly because I quietly disengaged because I can’t stand to even be in the same room as them any more. It’s a constant shriek-fest. EVERYTHING is political. Prior to 2016, I could go out for drinks with my liberal friends and we’d have a lovely time. Now, not so much, and it’s not because I’m the one bringing up politics every 5 seconds. How do you live peacefully alongside someone who doesn’t want you to even live? How is this a both sides issue, when only one side is actually scared of having opinions, for fear of getting their windows smashed or their house burned down?

      1. If you just shut up and learn to love Big Brother, your life will be so much more peaceful.

        1. My life has been extremely peaceful since I stopped hanging out with liberals.

          1. In my case, once I made it clear I did not agree and was willing to argue the issues, several decided not to hang out with me.
            Being called on lefty bullshit is very uncomfortable to lefty SF residents; they are thereby required to provide evidence rather than bumper-sticker platitudes.

            1. I hope you didn’t tell them to fuck off…

        2. And you are dead on about provocation. That’s their game- intimidation and provocation. They try to intimidate you into doing what they want, and if you aren’t intimidated, they try to provoke you into a confrontation which will be caught on video, selectively edited, and then used to shame you.

      2. *Checks*

        Yes, still illegal to burn your house down.

        1. If stupidity were illegal, you’d be posting from jail, shitstain.

        2. Yet your buddies still do it, in their hearts, at least. Come November, they will do it for real.

    5. This is the philosophical version of my practical history below.

      They do not want to coexist, no matter how many of those multi-symbol coexist bumper stickers they buy. They want one party to rule all equally under their boot. They are every bit the demons that the religious right is, and then some. What both ends of the spectrum share is an abiding desire to enforce conformity to their own personal ideals.

      I persist in a belief that most people share our ideology at their core – that everyone should be free to live as they choose, that each person should be the captain of their own life, that we should all be free to pursue our individual versions of happiness.

      Unfortunately, I keep running into a reality that seems to disagree with me on that point.

      We live in a country where perhaps a majority of the people think that it is perfectly fine to walk up and assault someone in a restaurant if they are wearing a hat supporting the opposing political party.

      There was a time when this was the reactionary conservative. At least, that’s the way I learned it from Hollywood. I was too young to actually have first hand experience. But watching today’s reality makes me question if the mob of white shirts with pocket protectors and flat-top haircuts angrily assaulting the long-haired commie who just wanted a cup of coffee actually happened.

      Because I don’t see the racist mobs ripping Obama T-shirts off of people at the 7-11 that the media seems to want me to believe are there. But I do see mobs of people willing to burn someone alive because they are in a building that says “police” on it. And I do see mobs of people willing to snatch a Trump hat off of a stranger’s head in a diner. I have yet to see a gang of MAGA hat wearing thugs assault a young, gay, Asian man for filming their rally (although the left and the media sure did like to push that narrative in 2016)… but I have seen Andy N’go repeatedly get physically assaulted by left-wing activists for the crime of telling other people what they are doing.

      And that points out the problem with these call-outs to civility. We’ve seen a couple of them here in the pages of Reason where they always seem to point to “both sides”.. (but mostly we need to worry about those crazy white conservatives). We’ve seen angry demands that Trump disavow the violence and racism of his supporters…. which does not actually appear to exist to any great degree….. while we have not heard any angry demands in the pages of the NYT or on ABC Nightly News that Pelosi, Shumer, Biden and Harris step forward and do something to stop the violent attacks on people and property by their supporters.

      The phrase often used here is “Double Standard”. But this is not a double standard. This is partisan hackery. A double standard implies the existence of some sort of standard. There is none. Nobody possessing any sense of personal honor could possibly pound the table that Trump refused to denounce white supremacist groups (that don’t actually exist to any significant degree and have not been involved in rioting to any significant degree) in a question where he answered “sure” not once, but twice. If you are one of those people, the reality of who you are and what you believe is probably vastly different from what you believe yourself to be. You probably feel empowered by your righteousness in standing up against bigotry. But that is a lie you chose to believe. You are not standing up against bigotry, you are standing up for bigotry.

      And this is the “why” behind that philosophical impossibility of compromise. They have a seductive lie to lean upon. They believe that they are the true warriors of justice. And that only by bringing injustice upon those who do not march with them can there ever be true justice. You cannot make peace with a delusion.

      Asking libertarians to disavow partisan political violence is as ludicrous as insisting that justice for Jussie Smolette is denied until the racist Trump supporters that assaulted him are behind bars.

      1. Well said. And the NAP certainly does not preclude lethal self defense.

    6. Where I come from it’s the conservative Christians who want to control every aspect of our lives. And they want to reach deeper into our body holes than any progressive. What are you gonna do?

      1. Enough about your fantasies, dude. Conservatives don’t really want to impose anything on other people, in comparison with the nightmare that progressives are shoving down people’s throats. (Sorry if I’m triggering another fantasy of yours).

      2. “Where I come from it’s the conservative Christians who want to control every aspect of our lives.”

        This from a shitstain who demands we all wear masks, since he’s frightened of catching something.
        Try posting without a lie once.

  18. If it ever does come to armed conflict, it will be not be a prolonged battle unless the deep state can call upon the military. I wouldn’t count on that.

    1. I wouldn’t be so sure. Obama did an excellent job planting officers in flag positions that were thoroughly on the socjus bandwagon, and staff offices in the branch services were even pushing Peggy McIntosh’s poisonous “white privilege” essay after the Fenty Floyd riots started up. Hell, look at the blowup at Sandia Labs where they put the white engineers through a struggle session and compelled them to sign a paper saying how racist they were, before Trump told them to knock it off.

      1. .Mil isn’t going to be the problem, if only because they don’t know who to shoot at. .Gov, especially the intelligence arms? Big problem.

        The capabilities of the American surveillance state, when fully weaponized—andthat means deputizing Google, Facebook, et al—is really fucking staggering. Enjoy not being able to buy anything (because your accounts are frozen) or travel anywhere.

        1. The CS & especially CSS are pretty rife w/ grievance bs. The line, much less so.

      2. He did plant his stooges in key positions, but generals bare irrelevant if they don’t have any troops. I think, if it comes to it, the military will split, and the split will happen along field grade lines, with career staff guys and climbers on one side, and line guys on the other. NCOs mostly fall on the same lines, but more weighted toward the line side. Enlisted get divvied up between them, poor bastards.

        And under any circumstances, American infantrymen are going to have a real hear time shooting other American soldiers.

        1. American soldiers will shoot anyone they’re told to shoot. Remember Kent State.

          1. No, that is a very bad example. Gray_Jay got this one right, IMO.

          2. Other than your assertion and hyperventilating about the Kent State ‘peaceful protest,’ your argument is horseshit.

  19. Between the irresponsible media running opinion as fact, social media companies allowing their systems to be used for left wing organizing of violence, and the far left causing 99% of all violence now, it seems ridiculous to put the blame on the right.

  20. They’re all lying. It’s always been 10 out of 10.
    “A ballot is just a substitute for a bullet. If your vote isn’t backed by a bullet, it is meaningless. Without the bullet, people could ignore the election outcome. Voting would be pointless. Democracy has violence at its very core!” ~Muir Matteson, “The Nonviolent Zone”

  21. This is a nice article on a topic that completely and utterly misses the point.

    What we are witnessing is not incipient political hostility boiling over. What we are witnessing is a political strategy being played out. And “learning to live and let live again” is not even remotely related to the problem.

    Go read the fine reporting from Nancy Rommelmann for a glimpse of how the strategy is currently playing out.

    But go back a lot further to see the longer road they are taking. Go back to before Charlottesville.

    What has been happening? Have we seen wave upon wave of partisan violence? Have we seen mobs of right wing militias hunting down leftist sympathizers?

    No.

    What we have seen is a strategy of provocation for media consumption. From Occupy onward there have been refinements in the strategy. With Occupy they gained the cooperation of a high percentage of government officials. But they did not capture the imagination of the nation. There was no compelling footage. With the local government supporting your movement, there was nothing to do.

    So they floundered about until Trump showed up. Then they were given a new strategy.

    A top down strategy, gamed out in these same think tanks.

    They attacked middle america where they live – attacking the symbols of america, american life, and their homes. The again floundered about looking for a perfect strategy.. but they fairly quickly settled on racism.

    So they organized protests against monuments. The first several did not have much effect. But they were playing a longer game. They continued provoking people, calling them racists, white nationalists, Nazis.

    And then came Richmond. They protested a major symbol of the city… Monument Avenue. And they finally got a response. Local citizens did not want Monument Avenue destroyed. So they counter-protested. This was finally the plan coming together! They had an enemy.

    These were not white nationalists. The media lied – as was the strategy. Mostly they were just locals who didn’t want people coming in and wrecking their town and its history.

    But Antifa was there. And Antifa has a strategy. They go out for battle… And then they film anyone who fights back and portray them as violent people who assaulted them.

    And that attracted the people they were looking for. The “unite the right” crowd put together a decidedly not white nationalist and not violent rally to say “we object!”. But that crowd did include some groups that are white nationalist adjacent and white nationalist.

    And the trap was sprung.

    The local government shut down the peaceful rally and forced the attendees into a gauntlet of Antifa activists. I watched it play out live on NBC. The Antifa crowd attacked and physically assaulted the mostly older rally attendees. NBC had received their script for the event. So their anchors reacted in horror to the black clad Nazis who were attacking peaceful protesters!

    Oops. Those were the Antifa people, as their very large black plywood shield they were using to assault people revealed in giant red letters. Live. On TV. Ooops.

    Without correction, they went to commercial. When they came back…. suddenly they switched their story. It was the old guys from the local Walmart who were attacking those innocent young kids wearing trendy black cosplay outfits. In both versions, it was the anti-monument peaceful protesters who were the victims of Nazi attacks…. but they completely switched who the people were. They were lying.

    And then they got lucky. Lucky in a most grizzly way. One probably mentally deficient far-right dude lost it and drove his car into a young female protester. And the narrative was locked in. The entire event was a violent right-wing attack. The right wing groups fell further into the trap later with their bizarre torch and you will not replace us chants. Now the movement really had an enemy.

    Except they didn’t. They had a moment. But there is no racist right to speak of. Those protests were about something specific, and a handful of racist dudes showed up.

    Fast forward to today…. and we have provocation upon provocation. There is no right wing violence. There is no mob of fascist police. Despite the best efforts of a huge team of propagandists to create a different impression {including a few around these parts}, there is no racist movement in america.

    Even when they tried to pick this same game back up with Christopher Columbus, Stone Mountain, even Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln… they couldn’t find an enemy they could paint as racist.

    So propagandists (including some here) watch a mob of far-left violent rioters hunting down and attempting to kill a teenage kid, and they proclaim him a right-wing vigilante bent on hunting down and killing peaceful protesters who simply want to protect black lives. They watch a mob hunt down and execute a man for wearing a hat they don’t like and call him a white supremacist, and propose that he was a violent racist who was actually the aggressor.

    Yet still, we see no “partisan” violence. We see strategic provocation. We see Democrat mayors telling police to stand down and allow cities to burn. We see Democrat prosecutors refusing to prosecute rioters. We see Democrat prosecutors pressing charges against people who are not a part of the left-wing political violence on extremely dubious charges.

    Libertarians are right to be concerned. And there is some reason for concern about a breakout of larger scale violence – a strategy designed to provoke violence by using violence certainly runs that risk…. but the real concern should be the existential threat to our liberty. Which ever way this goes, this strategy leads to a sever reduction in freedom. Either through draconian government action to quell the violence, or through the complete elimination of rights should the Antifa-BLM crowd actually achieve their goals.

    Libertarians should stop mucking about with worries about tweets about biased reporters or small-potatoes overreach by the current administration and step forward with a strong argument for individual liberty and government of the people, for the people and by the people. If we don’t, there’s a really good chance that we won’t have it any more.

    1. But people like Welch and that idiot commie who is in charge of the LP think the problem are nazi’s under every bed..not the left/bolsheviks who actually do exist in the tens of thousands and are running the media and attacking free people’s life, liberty and property..but omg..Ron Paul is a “racist” and rural conservatives are so scary..
      And who does Reason allow a paycheck…someone who thinks “Cuties” is misunderstood? Someone who thinks neocons are great (with obvious focus on Russia and the Middleast). I’m half expecting Max Boot or Friedman or Rubin to be writing here…come on…time for a libertarian revolution at Reason…abortion is not an issue worth discussing here..the attack on the Bill of Rights is..

    2. Accurate summation of recent events. I would add that the Covid lockdowns have revealed that a disturbingly high percentage of the population will accept virtually any assault on their liberty with barely a whimper. This is very valuable information to those who would enslave us. Quarantine. Wear a mask. Raise your arm and chant Black Lives Matter. I don’t think this is a grand conspiracy run by the DNC but there is no question that they will not let this crisis go to waste. And if they prevail it may be too late to control their violent supporters.

  22. I wish there were more discussion of the basic libertarian insight that the more the government controls, the more dangerous it is for your enemies to control the government. If the government were smaller and less intrusive, the composition of its current leadership would not matter so much.

    1. That really is the point. A rule of law not a rule of men.

    2. But it’s harder to find the libertarian who actually wants to shrink government in terms of tools of violence as opposed to, say, tools of health and safety.

      Someday someone will have to explain to me why a guy with a blunt object is something my government should care about but cancer isn’t. Dead is dead.

      1. But it’s harder to find the libertarian who actually wants to shrink government in terms of tools of violence as opposed to, say, tools of health and safety.

        I’ll be happy to abolish the police just as soon as government removes the restrictions on freedom of association and private security services. Until then, police is a necessary evil.

      2. Because politicians (government) aren’t gods thus they cannot cure cancer… Duh.. What they are there to do is make sure you don’t STEAL from others anything you ‘believe’ you deserve.

  23. Of course Americans are provoking each other into political violence. It’s been the case since the cold war at least. Foreigners like the Vietnamese have been the targets of the violence. The difference today is that Americans are turning on each other, a bit of a departure from the norm. Chickens coming home to roost etc.

    1. “Americans are turning on each other” — Are they? That’s a really good question right there. According to Pew Research we have 40-Million born in another country which is a total of 14% of the entire US population that we can even account for and 3/4 of them voting Democrat.

      “The political changes immigration has brought to some of the nation’s largest counties are striking. Broward County, Fla., was made up of 11.1 percent immigrants in 1980 and is 31.2 percent immigrant today. It was 55.9 percent Republican in 1980 and 32.4 percent today. San Bernardino County, Calif., was 7.7 percent immigrant in 1980, and 21.4 percent today. It was 59.7 percent Republican back then, and is 46.2 percent today. Clark County, Nev., was 7.6 percent immigrant in 1980 and is 21.9 percent today. It was 59.8 percent Republican then and is 42.6 percent today.” — Washington Examiner

      1. Sounds like you better get your shit together explaining to the citizen children of immigrants why your policies are better for them.

        1. I’ve been trying Tony – “Don’t feel entitled to STEAL other peoples earnings (re-enact slavery).” You seem to compulsively ignore these basic principles of decency/justice; why don’t you tell me how to change a person from the mentality of compulsive entitlement (TAKE) to accepting responsibility for themselves.

          1. Stealing is taxation to pay for things you don’t like, correct?

            Or is it when brown people avail themselves of the government you thought you had all to yourself?

            1. Stealing is taking earnings from working Peter by gov-guns to pay lazy Paul. It violates the U.S. Constitution. It is not justice in fact it’s the opposite; it’s criminal. It’s exactly what criminal mobs do for work (but actually a speckle more honest) because as least criminals point their own guns instead of pawn it off on some 3rd party (gov).

              What’s up with your habit of race-baiting. Do you think you’re the race police or something? Or; Do you think that the color of one’s skin is the very basis of one’s character and you’re trying to convince everyone else passive-aggressively?

              1. Who is Peter and who is Paul? And why is Paul lazy? I don’t get it. Is all taxation theft? Every last dollar taken at the point of a government gun? If so, you can’t have a government and there is no such thing as theft. I don’t owe you an explanation for anything. I can just take your stuff If I’m stronger.

                I bring up race because race is and always has been at the heart of what you think is a serious argument but which clearly isn’t, because it is totally incoherent.

                1. Your ignorance card is on full display.

                  Having a government for criminal law enforcement and national defense has absolutely nothing to do with theft from Peter to Paul. Paul is lazy because “he can be” so long as government is acting as a criminal on his behalf. Main difference being is the *earned* part of the equation.

                  “race is and always has been at the heart of what you think” – Some MAJOR projection right there.

            2. “Stealing is taxation…”
              FIFY, shitstain.

      2. If republicans aren’t happy with their standing, they could easily offer the voters with better more attractive candidates than Trump. Another possibility would be to strip immigrants of their right to vote. (and any others you feel likely to vote democrat)

        1. Is Trump Ugly? – “more attractive candidates than Trump” lol.. j/k 🙂

          But perhaps that’s some of the problem. Voter’s don’t vote for the best person for the job as defined in the U.S. Constitution but instead vote’s for how the person looks, talks, dresses, what benefit they can get (like crony/bribery voting) with no regard of the very foundation that made the USA a success to begin with.

          I’m not actually going to pretend that all immigrants are out to destroy the USA with bribed votes (even the statistics say 25% are worth having around) but I’m pretty convinced it runs deeper into a lack of change from their original *failed* view that government is there to take care of all their needs/wants by gun-stealing it from the working.

          I’d much rather find a way to change the very principle of bribed voting into honorable and principled voting tendencies.

          1. If you were to learn that immigrants are less of a burden on the state than citizens, would you be asking the citizens to leave? What if immigrants were a net boon to the economy and public coffers?

            It’s not only a simple fact to learn, it’s an exceedingly intuitive one.

            What could be the reason you guys refuse to acknowledge this and persist in a policy approach justified by incorrect assumptions? I’ve certainly explained it enough times.

            1. “If you were to learn that immigrants are less of a burden on the state than citizens, would you be asking the citizens to leave? What if immigrants were a net boon to the economy and public coffers?”

              — Then I’d say give those immigrants what they *earned* and stop TAKING everything from them. Some immigrants ARE assets (I know quite a few of them); some are not (Those that we call “lefties”). And YES, I absolutely ask all the time that even natural born citizens who compulsively support the idea of destroying the very foundation of the USA (The US Constitution) that if they hate it so; they need to MOVE!

              P.S. Your “simple fact” is drowned out by the very information I stated originally as well as welfare recipient records of the government. While that might be significant; it’s hardly the underlying horror of the story which is the left set on turning our government into their ‘Al Capone’ camp.

              1. Oh so you want to have an ideological test in your immigration policy. Less freedom, less first amendment, more pointless cruelty… libertarianism could be right for you!

                1. PFT.. You try to make that sound like it’s a bad thing. I mean Heaven forbid anyone ask the shooter if he got shot first and “believed” his intention was in self-defense.

                  No, No – can’t have that B.S.. That’s less freedom, less first amendment, more pointless cruelty. Either let all shooters just go on good-faith or lock them all up permanently!! /s

                  1. So you’re equating migrant children to murderers and you wonder why I think your ethical system is shit.

                    1. Way to paint entirely your own narrative; throw in a bundle of ignorance for “ideological test”, top it off with throwing in ‘migrants’ (never mentioned in the text), merge that with the word shooter and whala you’ve deceitfully and purposely twisted the meaning of what you’ve read completely out of its meaning.

                      Exactly how lefties maintain their delusional justifications – and then project their own purposeful deceit as someone else’s ‘ethical system’.

          2. “I’d much rather find a way to change the very principle of bribed voting into honorable and principled voting tendencies.”

            Why bother with voting at all? Like keeping the peace in the cities, or extinguishing forest fires, holding a fair, transparent election seems beyond the means of those entrusted with the task. Do it by lot as the Greeks did. Immigrants and other untrustworthy groups, exempted, of course.

  24. “We could, instead, learn once again to leave each other alone.”

    And there is the problem. As far as I can tell, the Left’s entire MO is to not leave you alone. I bailed from CA because people on the street, and people in grocery stores, people everywhere, would not leave me alone. They were always in my face for wearing the wrong thing, or gardening wrong, FFS. I kid you not. When I think of the classical liberals, I can’t think of anything that they want to force on other people, and they are now considered the “right-wing”. The religious right, sure, has things they want to stop, but if the Left would just leave them alone in their Red enclaves, instead of forcing them to accept a National Leftist Morality, we could go back to having regional differences.

    Maybe I only see the problem coming from the Left because I’ve always been surrounded by them. Maybe someone who is assailed by the right on a daily basis could tell me what they want to force you to do.

    1. I lived in CA for a while about 20 years ago. I hated it for that very reason. People were constantly minding my business, and felg compelled to tell me everything I was doing wrong, at any time, in any place at all. I moved shortly after my daughter was born, and I haven’t gone back since.

      1. I was in San Francisco before Wallace Dixiecrat spoiler votes handed Nixon the election. There was no LP, no nonviolent choice. It was like being in heaven. People left each other be. There were government-hireling prohibitionists with guns, but we spotted them a mile away. Things were just fine until November when Nixon won and adopted Dixiecrat racial collectivism and bombings and war as the cure for everything. The LP has since replaced the Dixiecrats, Communists and Econazis, and is poised to hand God’s Own Prohibitionists their ass on a platter. It’s been a long 48 years, but LP vote share is accelerating and replacing coercion with freedom.

  25. You have to ask who or what groups started this. The whole attacking America’s foundation of the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights started in the 1930’s…socialists/bolsehviks from central and eastern europe with old world “grudges” started pushing the narrative of a “tribal” society where oppressors must be destroyed…and their cultural institutions as well. They infected academia and the media and created the whole grifter “non profit” world (“Children’s Defense Fund”)…they sought to divide America and they got their wish…it wasn’t enough to have govt not discriminate or pass laws forcing people to discriminate..it had to be social engineering to get the “outcomes” which were tribal in nature. It was way too long the conservatives and libertarians didn’t fight back..even when we elected “conservative” presidents or congress we didn’t get much fight..(why are any of the “great society” depts even still open?), pushing America into globalist wars which used American boys/girls as cannon fodder…attacking our institutions…creating a crony state (how many DNC operatives leave govt and get rich on wall street or in “regulated industries”?). Trump comes along and kicks them in the pants (ok maybe it is just an act but finally someone is taking on the communists..). Will it go to war? I hope not..but you never know. If the left wants a fight..they will get it unfortunately…

    1. Paging Rob Misek, hehe

  26. Well, I look at it as only 2 causing the hate! The Dem party and Media. Trump voters do not go out on the street and abuse people wearing their insignia., all we see are Dems attacking people for wearing a red hat! So in conclusion your article should have aimed at those 2 hateful people, not Americans as a whole!

  27. Tuccille is writing the best stuff on Reason, and points are well-taken. But the whole point of forming the libertarian party was to offer voters a way to clearly record their opposition to the initiation of force. This is what makes us different from communist collectivists and faith-based asset forfeiture fascist looters. I personally am amused by the way believers in aggression show each other what they value. This makes it easier for Libertarian candidates to ask voters to “remember on election day what my opponents are saying about each other!”

  28. “Then, forced together (socialist – collective) by increasingly consequential contests for control of a government that reach ever deeper into life, Americans view opponents with growing hostility.”

    *failing democracy* in which disputes are settled in the streets

    The USA is a Constitutional Republic

    1. …and what is the President SUPPOSE to do to this best of his abilities????

      Article II, Section 8 –
      ‘‘I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.’’

      If you’re not voting on the best President to do what he is put in faith to do – what are you voting for?

    2. The USA is a Constitutional Republic

      According to what? Certainly not the Declaration of Independence, not the US Constitution, and not the Bill of Rights.

      1. Geez, you’re annoying… EVERY STATE IS A REPUBLIC form of government… There; you happy???? If you have a better name; please fill us in.

        1. Geez, you’re annoying… EVERY STATE IS A REPUBLIC form of government…

          Correct. But being composed of trees doesn’t make a forest a tree.

          If you have a better name; please fill us in.

          Yes: the US is a union or confederation of states.

          The US at the outset was intended to function like the EEC and NATO, as an economic and defense union composed of sovereign states, not as a nation state. Like the EEC and NATO, a republican form of government was a condition of membership. Calling the US a “republic” implies that the federal government ought to have more power than it does under the Constitution.

          In practice, of course, the US has become a nation state. But since that very fact itself is against the letter and intent of the Constitution, it is pointless to argue what kind of nation state it ought to be under the Constitution.

          1. Constitutional Union of Republican States? Perhaps we are getting somewhere. You’re absolutely right – underlining the fact the USA isn’t a state itself would drive more of the point home I’m thinking.

            Are you going to give me a hard time about calling the USA a “Constitutional Union of Republican States”?

        2. On that note, I looked over some synonyms for ‘republican’ and thought I would throw these phrases to you:

          • wheelhorse operations
          • partisan unions

    3. “… if you can keep it.”

      Benjamin Franklin–who, as the Democrats would derisively point out, is merely an old, dead white man.

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  30. “We could, instead, learn once again to leave each other alone.”

    Uh, really?

    Not long ago, the American right focused on managing society and telling others what to do. Now the cycle has turned, and the American left is all about telling us what to do.

    We have long passed the threshold where politics is NOT about telling others what to do.

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  32. The left has been practicing widespread violence all Summer.

    I think revealed preferences is more accurate than surveys.

  33. Please. The Democrats have been waging a “mostly peaceful” civil war for at least the last four years. So spare us the “both sides” BS.

    And for the record, I did not vote for Trump in 2016, but after what the Democrats and their media allies have done to the country since then–all because they would not, in their own words, “commit to a peaceful transfer of power,” I would coat my hands and knees in superglue and crawl through broken glass to do so this election.

    Any “coming civil war” is on them. And if they’re really stupid enough to actually go down that road, they won’t like the result any better than the last one they kicked off.

    1. The violent ones follow the bluff. They will either be willing to kill or willing to die, looking at that bluff. But they do not reckon that the fuse leads in one direction only, once ignited.

      In other words, hindsight is 20/20. Welcome to Liberty 101 — American history!

  34. With Biden increasing his lead in the polls every day and Trump sick with the virus, it looks like a decisive victory for the democrats is in the cards. And if wall street reacts the next day with a healthy bounce, the civil war talk will come to an end. The stock market seems to be the one American institution Trump readily prostrates himself before and will not gainsay.

  35. Commenters proving that – yes indeedy they certainly prefer violence with their D and R.

    1. JFree proving that he prefers shoveling bullshit to addressing the issue.
      Stuff your “PANIC” flag up your ass, stick first, and sit on it. Your MILLIONS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!! got you the rep you deserve, you pathetic piece of shit.

  36. Making the concept of self control obsolete, one “study” at a time!

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  38. read Andrew Sullivan’s latest article…just now catching my breath from laughter..my god he is an intellectual lightweight

  39. Andrew Sullivan stated…”The Harris-Pence debate changed nothing, but firmly established Harris’ credentials as a possible president.” …..LOL

  40. Looks like the left is now using Pinkerton guards to do their killing for them

    1. “Looks like the left is now using Pinkerton guards to do their killing for them”

      “Meet You in Hell”, Standiford, who is no one’s candidate as a capitalist tool, makes clear (pp.g 175) that the Homestead strike ‘battle’ was the Pinkertons, trying to find a place to land, were attacked by union thugs and simply defended themselves.

  41. This seems to fall under the “…Provoking Each Other…” thread:
    “Supreme Court nominee Barrett pledges fealty to law as Senate hearing looms”
    […]
    “WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. Supreme Court nominee Amy Coney Barrett will tell senators in her high-stakes confirmation hearing this week that she will approach cases based on the law, not her personal views, as Democrats urged her to step aside on an upcoming challenge to the Obamacare law and any potential election-related disputes…”

    Yep, Trump performing a perfectly legal and, in fact, required duty of his office has the Ds screaming about attempts at packing the court.
    Seems the provocation is pretty much one-sided here; the losers on the left, after nearly four years, refuse to accept that they are losers and they lost.

  42. “No justice no peace” says it all.

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  45. Now I guess we know why it used to be that the Vice president would be voted for apart from the presidential ticket. That way, all these supposed deaths in the street could be prevented because the second popular party gained the power to decide a tie vote in the event that the popular Veep indeed belonged to a different political party, as Speaker of the House.

    The Kennedy assassination dropped that treat from the menu as all involved became extremely paranoid, at least until Richard Nixon performed his kamikaze “record everything” White House stunt.

  46. I’m glad she acknowledged the monstrous premise of this otherwise good comedy. A couple breaks up, so they decide to divide up their infant twins — so each girl will never see the other parent, her sister, or any of her other relatives again? Or even know she has a sister? Just as in the original version of this movie, the real villains a re clearly both parents…….. Read More  

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