Election 2020

The Looming Illegitimate Election of 2020

Will Americans make peace with unpalatable election results?

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It's common in a democracy to worry that you'll have to make peace with unpalatable election results. What's new this year is the possibility that many Americans might refuse to make peace at all. It's the logical extension of a moment in which the major presidential candidates seem to have been picked for their ability to accurately represent the pathetic conditions of their parties, the partisans of those parties agree on little other than mutual contempt, and the government over which they're scrapping has become so intrusive and punitive that nobody can afford to lose control.

President Trump raised eyebrows last month when, asked whether he'd accept a loss in the presidential election, he refused to commit. "No, I'm not going to just say yes. I'm not going to say no," Trump told Fox News's Chris Wallace.

"I think mail-in voting is going to rig the election," the president added, in his ongoing effort to cast doubt on the results of remote voting.

It would be nice to be able to treat Trump's ambivalence about election results as an aberration, but it's actually a continuation of the attitude he held during the 2016 election that he ultimately won. More importantly, Trump's maybe-I will, maybe-I-won't take on swallowing unwelcome election outcomes is shared by much of the American public.

"Our data shows that partisans are quite open to their preferred presidential candidate rejecting the legitimacy of the election if they claim credible evidence of illegal voting or foreign interference," reports the Democracy Fund Voter Study Group, a collaboration of analysts and scholars trying to get a handle on the evolving state of American politics.

"About three in 10 (29 percent) Republicans say it would be appropriate for President Trump to refuse to leave office because he claims that he has credible evidence of illegal voting," the study group notes. "On the other hand, 57 percent of Democrats say that it would be appropriate for a Democratic candidate to call for a do-over election because they claim to have credible evidence of interference by a foreign government."

Let's emphasize the word "claim" in both of those scenarios. As the study group points out, "there is ample historical precedent for candidates to mislead the public about potential election interference in order to rally supporters against an electoral outcome with limited or no evidence."

It's also worth noting here that, despite justifiable concern about Trump's respect for election outcomes and disturbing support among Republicans for him refusing to leave office if he makes claims of illegal voting, this poll finds even weaker respect for election results among Democrats. Not only would a majority favor a "do-over" in case of claims of foreign interference, but "38 percent of Democrats say it would be appropriate for a candidate to call for a do-over if they win the popular vote but lose the Electoral College." That's an outcome that is perfectly constitutional and has put several presidents—including the current one—in office.

Also concerning is that just over 20 percent of both Democratic and Republican respondents believe violence is at least somewhat justified if their side loses the election. That's up from the 5 to 15 percent open to political violence in an earlier study by Nathan Kalmoe and Lilliana Mason, who also participate in the Democracy Fund Voter Study Group.

This all makes horrible sense in the context of a country largely divided into political factions that despise one another. Poll after poll finds that Democrats consider Republicans to be immoral, closed-minded, and racist. Republicans regard Democrats as immoral, unpatriotic, and socialist.

"The level of division and animosity – including negative sentiments among partisans toward the members of the opposing party – has only deepened" since 2016, according to Pew Research.

While partisans of the two major political parties really do agree on less by the year, they also work from distorted conceptions of who their opponents are and what they want. That's hardly a shocker with many people concentrated in communities dominated by one point of view and intolerant of dissent.

"It's hard to know exactly what's going on," commented Amanda Ripley, Rekha Tenjarla, and Angela Y. He in a 2019 piece for The Atlantic on the geography of partisan prejudice. "But what's clear is that both sides are becoming more hostile toward one another."

Perhaps unsurprisingly, American participation in politics is now driven less by loyalty to one's own side than by animosity toward the opposition.

Then again, rallying around your own party is a bit of a challenge when the standard-bearers show evidence of having been selected on a dare. Whatever the reality of their fitness to hold office, the two septuagenarian presidential hopefuls have taken to accusing each other of senility in what Politico calls "the dementia campaign."

"Biden can't put two sentences together," Trump says of Biden. "They wheel him out. He goes up—he repeats—they ask him questions. He reads a teleprompter and then he goes back into his basement."

"Look, all you gotta do is watch me, and I can hardly wait to compare my cognitive capability to the cognitive capability of the man I'm running against," Biden shoots back.

It would be less sad if there was anybody in the country who would be the least bit surprised if it turned out that both major candidates are a little wobbly in terms of their mental faculties. And those are the leading contenders for the White House in a country struggling with a pandemic and with the economic devastation wrought by social distancing and especially by mandated limits on economic and other activity.

Those limits, arbitrarily defining "essential" businesses that can remain open and others that must close, restricting travel, imposing quarantines, mandating mask-wearing, and barring cross-border movements reach further into people's lives than we've seen in living memory. Whether motivated by sincere public health concern, panic, or vindictiveness toward disfavored segments of society, they involved exercises of vast and dangerous authority over people's lives.

They also breed stresses which contribute to the recent eruptions of protest and violence in reaction to decades of abusive, biased, and militarized policing. Those protests have yet to subside, and the issues they address as well as the divisions they represent are sure to play a large role as the election approaches.

And those elections may well be a hot mess. While the president exaggerates the potential for expanded fraud in mail-in elections—most Arizonans have voted by mail for years with little difficulty—learning curves seem to be especially steep for government officials. New York turned its June primary into a contentious train wreck through inexperience in dealing with mailed ballots. That might be an opportunity for Trump to push his claim that "mail-in voting is going to rig the election."

Or maybe the Democrats will point their fingers, again, at Russia.

Whatever happens, there's a good chance the election in November won't resolve very much at all.

NEXT: Judge Throws Out Devin Nunes' Libel Lawsuit Against Ryan Lizza

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    2. This piece is shockingly selective in it’s criticisms of the major parties and their respective nominees. Once again, a libertarian commits the false balance fallacy when comparing the parties: there is a lazy focus on the remarks of politicians without concern for substance and expertise.

      The Republican Party is conducting an open campaign of violence against the Will of the People; the sabotage of the postal service is just one such mission toward that end.

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  3. Sorry, you’re years late, the results of both 2000 and 2016 were seen as illegitimate by significant portions of the electorate.

    1. And 2016 still is.
      The (used to be) press should be asking Pelosi & Schumer if THEY will accept the results this time.

      1. And 2004 and 2008 and 2012. Really, who are we kidding here? Some huge chunk of the electorate always thinks the other side is cheating. And since basic steps like Voter ID are shot down without even good arguments, why shouldn’t they?

        1. The most fun I have is asking socialists why a voter registration card can’t be used as a concealed carry permit.
          Both constitutional rights; should be the same, right?

          1. The fun fact is that here in Florida, I can use my concealed weapons card as my voter ID at the poll.
            I think it is a great idea that voters registration card should entitle you to carry concealed weapon

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        2. I can’t help but wonder how many of those opposed to any voter id actually want to promote distrust in the voting process.

        3. The stupid part is if a significant number of citizens of color don’t have an ID to vote with, the sane response should be to get them an ID. How hard could that be?

          1. If you’re running from your record, you don’t want an ID.

        4. I see way more blame put on the GOPe, McCain, and Romney for ’08 and ’12 then any widespread vote fraud.

          While most Rs think Obama manipulated his exotic family history to his advantage and deserves the questions surrounding his birth, the Birther movement was fringe on the right.

          While a great many might think Obama should have been impeached, it was for illegitimate actions in a legitimate office.

    2. First time we’ve had a president raise the specter of elections being illegitimate, though.

      1. Also first time a President, Obama, used the intel services to spy on a political rival. I bet that norm being smashed won’t be problematic at all.

        1. Not what happened at all.

          1. The bugs in Trump Tower were just an utter coincidence, and Obama has no idea how they got there.

            1. Just part of the utter coincidence of Trump hiring so many traitors and felons.

              1. Now espresso here, he would’ve been a good Nazi

          2. The Russian dossier is not foreign interference, but a few Facebook ads are.

            1. That correct because the Russian dossier was part of opposition research paid for by the candidate. The ads, the hacking were all funded by the Russians. Clinton was buying information, no one was giving it to her. Trump was taking assistance. No one could come to Clinton and demand a favor for the help. The Russians could ask this of Trump.

              1. Hahahahahhahahaha!

              2. Oh wow. Lol.

              3. Grade A satire. Bang on job.

        2. Do you mean Nixon? And I doubt he was the first.

        3. “Also first time a President, Obama, used the intel services to spy on a political rival.”

          Hardly. Johnson knew of Nixon’s dealings with the South Vietnamese dictator thanks to the efforts of American intelligence services.

      2. Obama raised Russians in 2016 fucktard.

        1. I thought that was Trump when he asked for their assistance right in front of everyone.

          1. Public sarcasm is now a direct and open communication with Putin.

            Now do the Steele Dossier.

            1. “I don’t kid.”

              Trump was questioned right after the comment and said he was not joking. How many times are you gonna let Trump float a fascist or traitorous idea out there and use that old excuse?

              And what a coincidence that GRU started their hack moments later.

              1. You do know that this is no longer a controversy. We have it in writing. They initiated the entire thing on a pretext they knew to be false. We always knew it to be sketchy, but now we know that they knew all along that the “source” not only was sketchy, he never even met any Russians at all.

                They targeted their own assets in order to leverage charges against them to get testimony against Trump. They openly bragged about leaking classified information with the explicit intent of initiating impeachment after the innauguration. They literally wrote down that they were interviewing Flynn with the intention of setting him up, not for any investigation.

                We now know for certain that it went all the way to the top. We know that both Obama and Biden were personally and directly involved.

                We even know that almost all of the “we know this for certain” stuff about “Russian interference” was actually either overblown or outright made up. They even had to drop their case against the “Russian government sponsored company” when that company showed up in court and not only denied any criminal conduct, but directly contradicted everything about the story, including the involvement of the government in their company.

                If there has been a bigger hoax in American history, I don’t know what it is. And if there has been a bigger corruption of the Federal government by the chief executive for political gain, I don’t know what it is. Nixon was guilty of covering for campaign officials who broke in to DNC headquarters to find out what they were doing. We hold that up as the benchmark for the worst corruption in history. Compare and contrast with using the FBI, CIA, State Department and NSA to spy on a political rival, and using the Justice Department to extort political rivals for testimony damning a political rival. Bonus points for “and there was nothing for them to testify about”. Double bonus points for “And the entire thing was based on a pretext from an opposition research file that was so crappy that even the far left media refused to publish anything from it.”

                1. Well said.

                  Please sign me up for your newsletter.

                2. “We hold that up as the benchmark for the worst corruption in history.”

                  No we don’t. Nixon’s ‘secret’ efforts to derail Johnson’s peace initiative were much worse and lead to the unnecessary deaths of millions.

                3. Sorry, Cyto, but your screed is complete and utter BS. Nice try, Herr Goebbels, but just because you Trumpist liars are loud and annoying does not mean that the lies you spew are any more true.

                  We know for CERTAIN that the Trump campaign colluded with foreigners to interfere with the 2016 election. Just because the lying, Satan-worshiping Joseph Goebbels acolytes of the far-right have a bullshit excuse for that treason does not make it so.

            2. Wow, you really are quite skilled at this whole deflection trick aren’t you?

      3. Also… 2012 0bama warned of Citizens United, voter suppression, etc as affecting the elections.

        So ignorant or lying?

        1. Warning of issues with elections is the same as the president himself refusing to say he will accept the results of an election, and then suggesting delaying the election, and suggesting cutting off state funding by executive order if they don’t hold elections the way he wants?

          Of course it is not the same.

          I wonder why the GOP keeps voting down election security bills that have anti foreign interference clauses, though? They seem to make such a fuss about election security. Curious.

          1. He says he is leaving himself open to legal challenges like Gore did in 2000 dumbfuck.

            You really are dumb.

            1. And what was he really saying when he said he would cut off state funding?

              And what is Mitch really saying when refuses to let election security bills be voted on?

              1. Do they include photo ID?

                No?

                Why not?

                1. So we have to let Russia and China have their way until then, or is that a rather flimsy excuse?

                2. So the perfect should be the enemy of the good?

                  I am in favor of voter ID myself, but I think overall improvements to securing the integrity of the vote are more important than holding up everything on one issue alone.

                  1. No, the very good (photo ID) is the enemy of the easily manipulated system that invites cheating. See Johnson, Lyndon 1948 Senate race, and Kennedy, John, 1960, etc.

                  2. The bare minimum is the perfect?

          2. Warning of issues with elections is the same as the president himself refusing to say he will accept the results of an election,

            So every time Dems complained about voting rights they were refusing to accept the next election?

            How did the left come so unglued?

            1. It’s amazing to watch people who’ve pitched a four-year long tantrum speculate about the peaceful transfer of power.

              1. You’d be angry too if the most qualified candidate in history was denied the position that was rightly hers because a reality star won on a technicality by cheating and reading the rules that no one knew about because we’d only been using them for more than 200 years. We could have avoided these problems if Donald Trump had just had the decency to step aside and let Hillary be president when everyone knew it was her turn.

    3. Because Democrats should ALWAYS win, amIright?

    4. The civil war started in the aftermath of the George Floyd murder will escalate regardless of the outcome of the election. Progressives will riot and rage in either defeat or victory.

      It’s their way.

      1. This is wrong. It is Trump who refused to accept the result of the 2016, sneakily insisting he had won just because technically according to the rules he did when everyone knew it was Hillary’s turn. If he had accepted that he lost even though he won according to the rules, he would have let Hillary be president and we wouldn’t be in this mess.

  4. “the government over which they’re scrapping has become so intrusive and punitive that nobody can afford to lose control.”

    This guy gets it. And it is very clear when you look at the huge disparity between the Dems (who want MORE government control, and are way more likely to contest the election to get it) and the GOP (Who claim to be for less government control).

    Add to that the terrible signal amplification that Twitter gives to extremists, and we really do feel like we are settling into two societies.

    1. That’s the problem. Trump is an asshole but the Democrats are just plain terrifying.

      1. What is becoming ever more terrifying is whoever it is that is keeping Biden around. You’d think his wife would have the decency to pull the plug on this charade, someone or something must be keeping her in check.

        It’s practically bordering on elder abuse.

        1. He gets an extra bowl of applesauce every time he appears on camera, so it’s cool.

    2. Checks and balances. That’s pretty much all we have left. We know the major media leans Left, so they will eagerly check a Republican government, but become almost comatose when Democrats are in charge. The current situation where you have a Republican President and Senate with a Democratic House may be about the best we can do.

      1. As much as Ds having any legitimacy given to their power, you might just be right about that

        1. *As much as it horrifies me

    3. Or better yet, 50 societies?!

      1. They could be laboratories of democracy or something…

  5. the left hasn’t made peace with the last two republican elections and are clearly destroying America over it.

    1. But in a mostly peaceful way – – – – – – – –

    2. You realize the republican president is the one calling into question the upcoming election’s legitimacy, right?

      1. you realize the left is already as well right fucktard? See multiple comments about Russia again.

        1. are you off your meds today?

            1. Yes, the Russians are still interfering. Would be nice to pass some legislation guarding our elections against foreign actors.

              Glad to see you come around.

              The Russians or Chinese will likely stage some support or interference on behalf of Dems this time around too. They want maximum dischord in American, and Russians especially revel in keeping their targets completely off balance.

              Eliminating sources of foreign funding and other interference should be a bipartisan issue. For some reason, it is not.

              1. That’s hilarious.

                How dare you question the integrity of the election!!! …. Look! They are threatening the integrity of the election!!!

                It plays like a parody.

      2. You realize the republican president is the one calling into question the upcoming election’s legitimacy, right?

        You realize you spent the last four years calling into question the last election’s legitimacy, right?

        1. So is that right or wrong? Right when a Republican does it? Does that about cover if?

    3. 3. They claimed 2004 was also illegitimate in addition to 2000 and 2016.

      1. You are right that there were many people claiming Ohio was “stolen” in 2004.

        However, how many people were claiming that Obama was not legitimately elected because he was supposedly born in Kenya? Including a certain notable Mr. Trump?

        There are a lot of accusations of illegitimacy going around. It’s not unique to either Team Blue or Team Red.

        1. Hillary Clinton and a few others. Now how many blamed voter suppression or citizens united?

          1. Hillary Clinton who conceded immediately?

            Yeah, she really tried to subvert the election process.

              1. Election was on November 8. Hillary concedes on November 9.

                Pedantry: the last bastion of defense when a right wing partisan is cornered.

                1. She has then spent the last 4 years claiming it was stolen from her. Try and do better.

                  1. “What Happened”

                    Synopsis: It was Comey, the Russians, ignorant fucking delplorables making their wives vote against their conscience, not upscale neighborhoods, racists, misogynists…

                    1. I thought it was because Clinton went to too many fundraisers in Hollywood and didn’t go to enough fish fry’s in Wisconsin, according to Obama.

                  2. Has she? She frequently touts her popular vote numbers, but I’m not aware of her ever calling into question the legitimacy of the election.

                    I know you guys want so badly for the evil Dems to be the bad guy for you to feel justified in doing whatever it takes to defeat. It’s part and parcel of the fascist playbook DJT is using, line by line, to play you all. It simply is not true though.

                    DJT is the first president to call into question the results of an election that has not been held yet. Partisan equivocating doesn’t change that.

                    1. http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2018/mar/19/hillary-clinton-defends-comments-india-about-femal/

                      “Speaking at a conference in Mumbai, the former secretary of state said that Democrats typically perform poorly with white men and married, white women, in part, because of the “ongoing pressure to vote the way that your husband, your boss, your son, whoever, believes you should.””

                    2. Um…the whole Russian fiasco was an attempt to call the election results into question.

          2. Will you admit, Jesse, that there are people both on Team Blue and on Team Red who refuse to accept the legitimacy of elections?

            1. BuT BoTh SiDeS HuRr DuRr

            2. You switched socks again.

        2. How many? Give us the numbers?

          There were no idiotic House pseudo-hearings on Obama. There was on “Diebold stealing OH”

          Do I even need to mention Stacey Abrams?

          1. You’re shifting the goalposts now.

            There are plenty of people on all sides claiming the the elections weren’t fair. Yes there were Team Blue members crazily trying to accuse Bush of stealing Ohio in 2004. What is so difficult in admitting that there were a lot of Team Red members wanting us to believe that Obama was not legitimately elected based on sketchy claims about his birthplace, the most notable of which was Trump himself?

            1. Why can’t you admit that only one of those two groups was able to force an IG investigation for their patently obvious bullshit?

            2. Who? Trump, who was not a Republican at the time, and who else?

        3. 24% (idiot birthers)
          vs
          53% (retarded Russiagaters)

          I think both of those are for gen pop though, not broken out per party affiliation.

  6. >>ability to accurately represent the pathetic conditions of their parties

    T was not elected to represent D.C.(R) he was elected to represent Americans(R) they are different entities. Yes, D.C.(R) is pathetic.

  7. Both Sides is not benign rhetoric. Trump’s voter fraud nonsense is clearly made up out of thin air and clearly part of his fascist fucking evil habit of making his fanboys question democracy and reality if it doesn’t give them what they want.

    By contrast, Russia really did interfere in 2016 and are still interfering today. How nice it must be to be a Republican. All of your malfeasance is washed away as long as you can accuse Democrats of something similar.

    How many norms of democratic civilization is Trump going to take a shit on before he has earned the right to be called a unique threat?

    1. And they refuse, absolutely refuse to read the Mueller report. I can’t think of a more cogent example of mass willful ignorance in my life.

      1. lol. Maybe you should read the actual report and not what media matters claims is in it.

        1. I have. There is no way a rational person can put it down and think, “TOTAL EXONERATION.”

          Here’s the relevant cliff notes, for those who are actually seeking new information and to refine their thinking.

          https://www.justsecurity.org/63838/guide-to-the-mueller-reports-findings-on-collusion/

          1. Again with this link from a noted liberal think tank out of NYU who discredited themselves over impeachment?

            Count how many maybe are in that list.

            Now count the confirmed payments to Steele for Russian misinformation.

            Also note Mueller said there was no direct evidence of collusion, the part your liberal think tank somehow left out

            Again, you are a conspiracy nut.

            1. Mueller also said he would charge the president, were he not president.

            2. Mueller did not talk about collusion because collusion is not a legal term. Mueller said that the Trump campaign had numerous contacts with Russians, used Russian campaign assistance, but did not engage in a conspiracy with the Russians. Mueller also implied this was not from lack of trying on the Trump people’s part, but rather their incompetence.

              1. Which from a criminal conspiracy perspective makes perfect sense. Why would the Russian govt directly involve these Republican clowns in the actual hacking? Mueller was never going to find evidence of Trump campaign participation in the hacking and misinformation campaign. The Russians would want to keep their Republican pets away from that part of it. This intention to insulate explains why the Russians worked with Wikileaks as opposed to some Fox News creep.

                1. Yes, more Russia/Trump fever dreams.

          2. From the fucking report.

            “(T)he investigation did not establish that members of the Trump campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.”

            1. But that’s not the part they focus on. They had to shift the goal posts and focus on the obstruction part. You know, the part where Trump maybe sort of caused issues with the completely meritless investigation if you look at it just right.

              1. Try appreciating that whether Trump is guilty is not the primary concern. He gor acquitted. It’s done.

                That by no means suggests that we ought to ignore the actual fact that Russia interfered in the election to help Trump. That’s a serious concern even if it wasn’t your ox gored this time around, isn’t it?

                And if you want to be even more thoughtful, you might consider that Trump was only acquitted for tribal partisan reasons. Even the senate Republicans had trouble justifying their actions and had to settle on whining about the process, but not the substance.

                1. They actively avoided the substance to the tune of not calling a single witness or entering a single document into evidence. Complete sham. No other word for it.

                2. So wait, are you talking about Russia or are you talking about Ukraine? You seem to have conflation issues.

                  And if you think Russia’s minimal actions of interference are a problem, are you upset at Obama doing absolutely nothing about it?

                  And nice goal post shift that went from Trump colluding with Russia, which is demonstrably false, to simply Russia interfered to help Trump. The grasping on all things Russia is so bizarre at this point. BTW, how are Mueller’s charges against those Russian companies going?

                  1. Stop giving my country away to malicious foreign actors because you like the letter after Trump’s name.

                    Yes I’m upset Democrats didn’t do more. Are you upset that Republicans are wiling accomplices?

                    1. I’m not. I’m operating in reality. And seriously, I don’t get overly upset that some foreigner published false information on Facebook about a candidate or cause. I mean, getting overly upset because you demand only Americans lie to you about politics is a bit stupid.

                      I believe that we should protect our institutions from actual hacking. Not “hacking” beacuse they posted incorrect stuff on Facebook, but actual hacking and changing actual outcomes.

                      At the end of the day, foreigners are always going to interfere in our elections, just like we do in theirs. Our clandestine services should be aware of this and operate to fight such things to a point. But not matter what we do, someone can always take out an ad in a newspaper and lie about someone. I just don’t get heartburn if it is done by a Russian or done by my neighbor down the street.

                      After all, I still believe more speech is always better than less. And how do you confront false info, you provide counter info to that falsity.

                    2. You’d care if it were communists instead of fascists and Democrats instead of Republicans.

                    3. Russians are communists? There have been no fascists? What is wrong with you?

                    4. “Are you upset that Republicans are wiling accomplices?”

                      Again with the conflating. They literally were NOT accomplices. And this is why every time you try to score with actual stuff that did happen, no one pays attention to you.

                      I firmly believe that the Russians bought advertising. If that is interference, then you have shifted the goal posts so far as to not mean anything. You use the term Interference just like you use the term “Willing accomplice” above. To make some small “thing” into a criminal conspiracy. The Russians didn’t obstruct access to polls. They didn’t hack machines. They didn’t pay off electors or vote counters. They bought some facebook ads that virtually no one saw.

                    5. A reasonable person would want as much investigation as possible to determine the scope of the president‘s and Republicans’ complicity. I’m sorry that would require you to take off partisan blinders, but you chose the party of religious nuts, neo-Nazis, and disaster capitalists, so that’s hardly my problem.

                      Mueller’s brief was extremely limited because of the unique nature of the presidency and impeachment. There’s still enough to disturb any normal American. How much would you let the world burn to get one last epic troll of libtards in? That is, after all, Trump’s sole apparent function.

                    6. Dude, you have gone completely off the rails.

                    7. “A reasonable person would want as much investigation as possible to determine the scope of the president‘s and Republicans’ complicity. I’m sorry that would require you to take off partisan blinders…”

                      You’ve taken off the partisan blinders but want as much investigation as possible of the *president’s* and *Republicans’* complicity. So, the other side accepting an endless fishing expedition to find anything at all that they might have done wrong is an example of them taking off the partisan blinders. I didn’t vote for Trump, but goddamn, stuff like this makes me consider it.

                3. And if you want to be even more thoughtful,

                  It’s always amusing when those whose core belief is “everyone who disagrees with me is racist” thinks they understand how to be thoughtful.

                  1. Just the ones who employ neo-Nazi and KKK rhetoric. It’s more of you than you think.

                    1. Well done proving Marshal’s point.

                    2. Without racism, nothing explains the modern Republican Party. It’s sure as hell not their many governing successes.

                    3. If you actually believe that, then you are such a hyper-partisan hack that your credibility on politics is all but shot.

                    4. Name something positive Republicans have done for the country in 40 years. Just name one thing.

                    5. I take it things like tax cuts and deregulation aren’t positives for you.? How about checking unfettered leftism? But since that’s what you want, that probably doesn’t count either, am I right?

                    6. Anything that actually improved the lives of Americans. Those don’t even do that in theory. Tax cuts don’t help people who don’t pay a lot in taxes, and deregulation actively hurts the victims of whatever bad practice you’re now permitting.

                    7. I get it. You believe anything that doesn’t expand the government towards authoritarianism and socialism is bad. Thus, I will concede your point that from your position Repubs don’t do anything positive.

                    8. I get it now, you’re a self loathing racist. It all makes sense…

                    9. It’s more than none? Maybe in your stunted little mind. I’d do understand that nazis are socialists right? And the KKK is also on that direction.

                      The bottom line is that socialism, align with racism, is the province of the left.

                4. Russia did not interfere in the election to help Trump. If they interfered, it was to disrupt the American political process. Putin can read polls, too. He had no more idea Trump could win than anyone else.

            2. Yes, failing to meet the legal standard for conspiracy in the opinion of the report’s author is a great way to claim “TOTAL EXONERATION” when the report also states that the Trump campaign was receptive to offers of help by Russian spies, the candidate was in the process of negotiating a major Russian real estate deal, that Trump appeared to personally have advance knosledge of the wikileaks DNC email leak, the president’s son and campaign manager taking a meeting with Russian spies with the explicit subject of Russian Campaign Assistance for Trump, etc..

              Never heard of a super PAC and a candidate using loopholes and obvious common interest to avoid the appearance of coordination, I see.

              Funny how the “Facts don’t care about your feelings” crowd gets all touchy about facts when they pertain to the obvious lack of loyalty on the president’s part.

              1. You are clearly psychotic

                1. You’re projecting because you’re nuts.

                  1. Whose sock are you?

              2. You have no facts.

        2. >>Maybe you should read the actual report

          lol I thought that DOL post was Tulpa.

    2. “Both Sides is not benign rhetoric. Trump’s voter fraud nonsense is clearly made up out of thin air and clearly part of his fascist fucking evil habit of making his fanboys question democracy and reality if it doesn’t give them what they want.

      By contrast, Russia really did interfere in 2016 and are still interfering today.”

      Self-awareness level hitting negative numbers here, folks.

      1. Recognizing the problem is the first step.

      2. When all your conspiracies about the evil Orange Man and Repubs falls apart, all that is left if grasping at straws.

    3. Tony still thinks 1 million dollars Russia spent was more effective than 1 billion Hillary did.

      The most prominent Russian interference was the Steele Dossier.

      1. It really doesn’t concern you that the difference is that one was a candidate for president chosen by her party and the other is a foreign power actively doing harm to the country? How many dollars does Russia have to spend before it becomes wrong? Trump and his Wormtongues couldn’t even promise not to accept the same help again.

        A propaganda effort in the age of the internet is cheap, and highly effective considering you people are still wallowing in the nonsense conspiracy theories Russia helped propagate. They know how to get bang for their buck: find a shitload of absolute morons to sucker. Tale as old as time.

        1. A propaganda effort in the age of the internet is cheap, and highly effective considering you people are still wallowing in the nonsense conspiracy theories Russia helped propagate.

          An amusing criticism from someone still wallowing in conspiracy theories.

          1. If we could agree on basic standards of evidence this would all go more smoothly.

            Hey aren’t you neckbeards always waving the banner for Enlightenment values? I get that it’s largely coded racism when you guys talk about it, but you could at least pretend to appreciate the difference between facts and bullshit.

            1. Nice.

            2. If we could agree on basic standards of evidence this would all go more smoothly.

              This might be possible if you had evidence. Instead you pretend the bar ramblings of a drunk gadfly paid for by the Hillary Campaign qualify.

            3. Would that be the propaganda you keep spewed no about Russia stealing the election?

          2. Is it still just a theory when all of our intel agencies, many of our allies’ intel agencies, and my own lying eyes saw Trump flat out ask Russia for help all confirm the conspiracy is true?

            1. I love how this comedic statement by Trump is the only piece of evidence left to uphold the Russia collusion narrative. When this is all you have left, time to throw in the towel on the conspiracy.

              1. So many comedic statements from Trump that all happen to be traitorous, contrary to the constitution, or fascistic. Also what a happy coincidence for Trump that the GRU initiated their hack mere hours after his appeal for help, and that they did not release the RNC email hack, only the DNC one.

                1. Wow. Conspiracy Land must be a really entertaining land to live in. But you’re right, Trump was secretly telling his GRU buddies to hack Hillary because apparently the bat-cave phone was down at that time so his only means of communication with the GRU was through the mainstream media.

                  I still remember when progressives used to complain that only people on the right concocted conspiracy theories.

                  1. It’s not a theory, it’s history. This all happened. No one at this point says that it didn’t, other than Trump and his dumbest cult members. Even other GOP politicians cringe when DJT brings up crowdstrike or apologizes on behalf of America to Putin in front of the world.

                    1. Uh huh. Whatever you need to believe to keep up your TDS.

                  2. There is no point debating these idiots. Just get ready to put them down when they escalate their violence. The democrat riots and insurrection as far from over.

                2. So the GRU hacked Clinton to find the emails she’d already deleted (and scrubbed with bleachbit)?

                  And there no, NONE whatsoever, evidence that anyone hacked the DNC server.
                  What little evidence that has been produced of what happened to the server indicates that files were downloaded onto a flash drive physically present at the scene.

                3. Hahahahahahahahaha

            2. my own lying eyes saw Trump flat out ask Russia for help

              If you had real evidence to justify your position you wouldn’t have to pretend Trump’s obvious mockery was a sincere request.

              1. 57 states! Bitter clingers! Scandal!!!

                1. Lay off the sauce, even by your standard you’re not making sense.

                  1. President Biden is going to be about a million times less inflammatory and vulgar Than Trump. He will also lie a lot less. Agreed? So I expect that if he were to ever say he can grab women by the pussy, insult military families, tout conspiracy blogs ad superior to science, solicit political help from Russia, even in jest, or do a million other distasteful things, you people are gonna keep your mouths sealed about it, aren’t you? Some of us have memories and take notes.

                    1. President Biden is going to be about a million times less inflammatory

                      False. “Republicans want to put ya’ll [blacks] back in chains”.

                      vulgar

                      True, although less than leftists pretend. We’d never hear the end of Trump swimming naked in front of his female security detail members if the roles were reversed.

                      He will also lie a lot less.

                      No. Biden will lie with every breath as he has always done. But he will do so on subjects which matter far more [Green New Deal, Title IX Inquisitions] where his lies are used to advance damaging policy rather than meaningless ego boosts.

                      But tell us how the 57 states and bitter clingers comments fit your point. Or are you just going to ignore that like the rest of the time your comments are shown to be irrelevant.

                      Some of us have memories and take notes.

                      Interestingly your memory and notes omit literally every single time Team Blue violates the standards you pretend to support.

                    2. The point I was making is that you will twist yourself into a pretzel to make excuses for everything Trump says, and, while I don’t know how you behaved during Obama, the general atmosphere was that he could literally not even fist bump his wife without 20 FOX segments about the scandal.

                      Just be consistent in your deeply held standards of decency. I’m not asking anything of you but basic human normality.

                    3. The point I was making is that you will twist yourself into a pretzel to make excuses for everything Trump says

                      So you believe Trump said 57 states and bitter clingers? Try to make sense.

                      It’s also revealing we’re not even discussing what Trump says so your pretense as to the subject is absurd.

                      during Obama, the general atmosphere was that he could literally not even fist bump his wife without 20 FOX segments about the scandal.

                      Again you reveal your inability to understand reality. Obama’s scandals included lying to get Obamacare passed, passing it illegitimately using reconciliation, gaming the CBO analysis, allowing illegal gun sales to Mexican cartels which resulted in both Mexicans and Americans being murdered, and using illegitimate justifications to investigate his political rival. There are many others. But you keep pretending fist bumps were the only think anyone was unhappy with.

                      I’m not asking anything of you but basic human normality.

                      I’m always amused when the frothers think they’re capable of judging others.

                  2. Those are either fake conspiracy theories (seriously, do you guys have anything else?) or not scandals. Just to make this objective, google how many members of various presidential administrations were charged and convicted of crimes.

                    1. Fake News!!

              2. This is the biggest irony that apparently they don’t see when they use this comedic statement as evidence.

      2. I see we are still pretending the DNC and RNC hacks never happened.

        1. Crowdstrike has said they have zero proof that Russia hacked the DNC.

          So, where is your evidence? The FBI never touched the server. Crowdstrike did…and they won’t say that Russia did it.

          Perhaps laughable security by morons like Podesta got them hacked? Maybe just maybe.

        2. I see you’re still pretending that the president of Crowdstrike didn’t get up in front of Congress and admit that his company had exactly zero evidence that Russia was involved in the DNC email hack.

          https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2020/05/13/hidden_over_2_years_dem_cyber-firms_sworn_testimony_it_had_no_proof_of_russian_hack_of_dnc_123596.html

          1. https://apnews.com/23c9022665dc40a1a69e613459955112

            you guys need to get Trump’s thighs off of your ears. You can’t hear reality when you are that deep in.

            1. I love that he linked to a story about the guys sworn congressional testimony and you linked to a story about Ukraine.

            1. I have SWORN testimony. You know, where there are penalties for lying. Feel free to try and beat that.

    4. No one has ever adequately explained to me why Russia would want a Republican president, Trump or otherwise. Republicans have historically been anti-Soviet and anti-Russia ever since. They advanced their interests much easier under Clinton and Obama than they ever did under Reagan, Bush & Bush. What is in it for them? You have to go complete deep-state conspiracy to get to a place where Republicans or even Trump are the Russians choice.

      1. They advanced their interests much easier under Clinton and Obama than they ever did under Reagan, Bush & Bush.

        Or Trump. Russia’s number one policy interest in America is ending fracking. Every Dem is on board – Trump is not.

        Russia’s preference for Dems isn’t theoretical.

      2. If you recall, everyone thought Clinton would win. Why would Putin be any different? He doesn’t have any special information. Putin was sure Trump would lose. He just wanted to screw with the political process. What’s funny is that Democrats have done much more to damage trust in the political process than Putin could ever dream. He must be laughing his ass off every time he thinks about it.

      3. Why did Putin want Trump to win?

        Because Trump is corrupt and incompetent.

        But Putin explained it this way in 2018:

        Russian President Vladimir Putin said Monday he wanted President Donald Trump to win the 2016 election because he believed Trump’s policies would be more friendly to the Kremlin.

        https://www.foxnews.com/world/putin-says-he-wanted-trump-to-win-in-2016-didnt-interfere

        1. So, you would explain the conundrum by referencing a quote from Putin that, based on your commenting pattern, you would absolutely refute if quoted in full (which would include the part about not interfering), without even offering the least speculation on what policies Putin could have been referencing. This is not very helpful.

    5. The biggest threat to free speech and democracy is the democrats embrace of censorship during elections, codified into law, yet overturned by Citizens United. A law that banned books and films during elections, yet is widely embraced with little argument beyond the straw man “money isn’t speech!”, the most widely embraced straw man ever.

      That’s why free speech matters, and why democrats can’t be trusted with it or democracy.

    6. What did the czar do to your ancestors?

  8. Poll after poll finds that Democrats consider Republicans to be immoral, closed-minded, and racist. Republicans regard Democrats as immoral, unpatriotic, and socialist.

    Democrats aren’t just being regarded as socialist, the party has a large and growing number of self-described socialists, people who admire mass murderers. Socialism has killed a hundred million people; it is totalitarian, intolerant, and brings poverty and misery. Furthermore, Democrats objectively reject the principles and ideas that they country was founded on, claiming that they are instruments of white supremacy and oppression; how is that not objectively the opposite of patriotism?

    the government over which they’re scrapping has become so intrusive and punitive that nobody can afford to lose control

    This didn’t just happen; it’s the objective of the Democratic party and the progressive movement to make government more and more powerful. It is not the objective of Republicans or conservatives to increase the power of government.

    1. Furthermore, Democrats objectively reject the principles and ideas that they country was founded on, claiming that they are instruments of white supremacy and oppression; how is that not objectively the opposite of patriotism?

      “The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does.” – Sydney Harris

      There is nothing unpatriotic per se by pointing out that Washington was a slave owner or that much of the wealth of this nation was built on the backs of slave labor. I would imagine that a patriot would want to acknowledge the truth and work to make America a better place that moves beyond some of the more troubling elements of its past.

      1. “There is nothing unpatriotic per se by pointing out that Washington was a slave owner or that much of the wealth of this nation was built on the backs of slave labor.”

        Can you back up this claim that MOST of the wealth was built on the back of slave labor? Because good money says that no, you cannot.

        1. I said “much”, not “most”.

        2. But, let’s just go with that for a moment.

          What if “most” of the wealth of America had been built on the back of slave labor? Would that change anything in your mind?

          1. I’d know you were lying…so, no, it wouldn’t change much.

            1. But since I didn’t say “most”, I said “much”, you’re going to apologize now and say I wasn’t lying, right?

      2. much of the wealth of this nation was built on the backs of slave labor

        The fact that you can write those words is a testament to the pleasure you take in your gross ignorance.

        America was a piss-poor backwater during slavery. Plantation owners were mostly a bunch of mosquito infested swamp dwellers only rich in comparison to the people working in the fields. The northern industrialists were always much more wealthy. It was the technological innovations that are America’s true wealth that eventually made slavery as irrelevant as it is immoral.

        1. I’m too lazy to look right now, but I bet if you look at private wealth in the country over the years, pre slavery ending wealthy are going to look like fucking pikers compared to post slavery wealthy.

        2. Those “piss poor mosquito infested swamp dwellers” were able to finance a civil war that lasted 4+ years and claimed 100,000+ lives. So much for not having much wealth.

          Technological innovation is great, but it was on the foundation of what came before it.

          1. Many of the soldiers who fought for the Confederacy were poor farmers who didn’t own slaves. They fought because they believed they were defending state sovereignty. The Confederacy had one cash crop, cotton, that enriched a small group of aristocratic plantation owners and helped the CSA secure aid from foreign governments such as England. Chuck P’s description of the CSA is correct. The Union had industrialization and paid labor on their side. The North was where the jobs and money were; consequently, they had a higher population. Grant wasn’t a better general than Lee, but he had lots of bodies to throw into the fighting, and he did. That the CSA lasted as long as they did is a testament to the tenacity of their soldiers and the effectiveness of their leadership, helped enormously by tepid support for the war effort in the North and a string of mediocre/do nothing commanders on the Union side. I’m simplifying, but not nearly as much as you.

      3. There is nothing unpatriotic per se by pointing out that Washington was a slave owner or that much of the wealth of this nation was built on the backs of slave labor.

        But we aren’t celebrating the slave owner we are learning, discussing, and admiring a General and a president who on his on, stood down after two terms setting a great standard until FDR scared people.

        I do not believe that “much of the wealth of this nation” was built prior to 1865. And even if it were, ALL of the wealth of the world for the previous 100,000 years was built on the backs of slave labor.

        get some perspective

    2. This didn’t just happen; it’s the objective of the Democratic party and the progressive movement to make government more and more powerful. It is not the objective of Republicans or conservatives to increase the power of government.

      The welfare state, the surveillance state, the War on Drugs, are both firmly bipartisan affairs.

    3. I don’t suppose it would help if Democrats assured you that Stalinism is not, in fact, their model for a decent society.

      The most monumental increases in real government power and abuse in generations happened under the Bush 2 administration. You can both sides this if you like, but actually letting Republicans off the hook is willful hacky blindness.

      1. There are very few Stalinists left anywhere. It is an absurd charge to make. But that is what happens when everyone is reduced to a caricature.

        1. Believe it or not my default mode is calm moderation, but there is such a thing as a fallacious moderation. Fascist regimes have identifiable hallmarks, and when the boxes start getting ticked eventually it becomes worrying, especially once democracy itself starts being undermined systematically. Indeed, accusing everyone of being a communist and the antisemitic “cultural Marxism” trope is one of those ticked boxes.

          This is not to say that Democrats are still the centrist creatures they were in the 90a and really through Obama. They are radicalizing too. I am somewhat less concerned about the threat of trans rights activists than I am the proto-Nazis in the White House, though.

          1. Frankly I don’t think Trump is smart enough to be a fascist. He is a poorly educated narcissistic buffoon. He would be the first person to adopt leftwing talking points if he thought he could get adoring fans that way. I would worry more if it was someone like a Tom Cotton or a Josh Hawley. They really do want to use state power to enforce right-wing conformity and crush dissent.

            I do hope that more right-wingers get rid of the bunker mentality that so many seem to have embraced. Their neighbors are not “communists”. Their neighbors are patriots like they are who have the same types of jobs that they have and do the same types of things that they do.

            Why do you think accusations of “cultural Marxism” are antisemitic? I have not heard that one.

            1. Hitler’s propagandists used the term cultural Bolsheviks, and there’s a straight through-line from then to now. It literally comes from neo-Nazi rhetoric and is a specific, consistent conspiracy theory. Academics, leftists, and Jews are undermining our precious fatherland, etc.

              1. I recommended this podcast yesterday, of course to no takers.
                https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/slate/slow-burn

                David Duke, a Neo Nazi, fascist, Klan Grand Wizard ran the exact same campaign that Trump did/never stopped. Duke’s supporters make the exact same excuses for voting for him as modern DJT voters. Media members make the exact same excuses and analysis that they do now. It is uncanny.

                This is all basically identity politics for under educated whites. The same thing that was long criticized around libertarians parts is now being embraced by some when it is their tribe in the power seat.

                Of course, identity politics gets pretty dangerous when the current majority decides to adopt it. And that’s what these guys don’t get when they try to “both sides” away these issues or deflect to antifa, etc.. Fringe movements and minorities aren’t going to be able to wield the power of the state to, for instance, indefinitely detain toddlers.

                1. Those toddlers are lawbreakers! As libertarians you can‘t expect us to criticize laws!

                  Yeah I’ve been doing some reading too, and it’s disturbing how cookie-cutter the neo-Nazi stuff is. Really all that changes are some tweaks to the dog whistles whenever the mainstream catches on.

              2. You say lots of dumb stuff. This line of reasoning is near the top of the list.

              3. Cultural Marxism was the response by “intellectuals” and such in central and eastern Europe to explain why working class French, British, Germans, Italians and so on didn’t support international socialism…the proponents background is not relevant..what was and is is their absolute war on liberty and historical social institutions and religion. The modern “woke” movement is just cultural marxism which has left the university and media

                1. Why not just call it social progress and yourself a conservative? Why refer to a neo-Nazi conspiracy theory at all?

                  1. In fairness I bet that most people who use the term “cultural Marxism” don’t know its real roots. It is a right-wing media trick: dress up something they don’t like with some scary words based on tenuous connections.

                    So “social progress that I don’t like” becomes “a conspiracy to undermine America”

                    So “protestors protesting against police brutality” becomes “Marxist agitators threatening to undermine America”

                    It just follows with the right-wing viewpoint that they represent Real Murica and anything that is different from Real Murica is an existential threat, foisted upon Murica by outsiders in some plot to destroy the Last Best Shining Beacon of Hope in the Universe.

                    1. It’s based on Marx’s claim that the biggest obstacles to socialism/marxism were church and family.

                      Cultural marxism seeks to undermine both in the culture. And its roots are with very odd collegiates in germany where some of the more innocuous programs were adopted here – like public schools.

        2. there may be few actual Stalinists among the socialist progressive masses, but the Stalinists are the ones who will be in charge

          1. Stalinism is not relevant to American politics today, and I question whether it can ever be relevant outside its historical time and place. We are already highly industrialized. Do liberals want to throw the middle class and academics into death camps? Maybe after we’re done being purged of our academics by the Trump right who basically advocates it openly.

            The problem is by contrast fascism is highly exportable. Trumpism isn’t even a variation in a theme. They use the exact same words as Hitler’s propagandists, as explorers elsewhere on this thread. They target the exact same groups for scapegoating.

            You really have to stretch to find that amount of similarity between progressive calls for a higher minimum wage or whatever and Stalinist policies.

          2. This whole STALINISM!!! thing is such a complete myth. Where does this nonsense come from?

            The American left ranges all the way from Joe Manchin, who is basically a Republican except for maybe two issues, to Joe Biden who is a *slightly* more leftwing version of Bill Clinton, to Bernie Sanders who wants a Western European-style welfare state. None of them are STALINISTS. There are maybe two fringe radicals living in Seattle who could be called Stalinists. They don’t have any power at all. Running around screaming about STALINISM only makes you look like a paranoid nutter.

      2. Claimed model or not there is a reason why socialism requires Stalinist acts

        The kulaks won’t willingly give up their farms, and there are millions of capitalist wreckers who will actively sabotage the revolution.
        It is only by suppressing these dissidents that the revolution can succeed.

        1. damn straight…its always the same “intellectuals” (notice none these folks actually have hard science or engineering degrees but bullshit liberal art degrees) pushing centralization and hatred towards certain folks due to “old world” grudges..I honestly am shocked how much anti say Italian Americanism is now being pushed by the left…as well as attacks on the Bill of Rights…they are a threat to our liberty

      3. The most monumental increases in real government power and abuse in generations happened under the Bush 2 administration.

        As I remember, all that patriot act/Bull-in-a-china-shop/Battle of 9-11 legislation was passed pretty much unanimously.

    4. it’s the objective of the Democratic party and the progressive movement to make government more and more powerful.

      Only them?

  9. Part of the problem here is the continual use of terms like “The Left” and “The Right”, referring to each group as one hive mind that supposedly marches in lockstep and all share exactly the same beliefs. I confess I am sometimes guilty of that as well, because it is all too tempting to turn your opponents into a caricature rather than to acknowledge the individuality of each person in that group. We ought to do better than that, to recognize that not everyone who is on “The Right” is a toothless racist redneck, and not everyone who is on “The Left” is a crazy SJW rioter. Nearly everyone on both The Left and The Right are patriots who want what is best for the country and just have different ideas on what that is. If we tamp down the caricatures it will lessen the anxiety that the possible election of any particular person will lead to one’s Worst Fears Come To Pass, which is in part driving the anxiety about not accepting the results of the election.

    1. I did not expect such a thoughtful comment, being guilty of the same “lumping together” that you complain about, I guess. I would only take issue with

      Nearly everyone on both The Left and The Right are patriots who want what is best for the country and just have different ideas on what that is.

      I would argue that most people aren’t even patriots, per se. We just want whoever is in charge to stay out of our way, generally preserve the peace, and let us get on with the business of raising our kids to be successful and happy. To us, both the Coke and Pepsi parties look equally non-nutritious.

    2. Nearly everyone on both The Left and The Right are patriots who want what is best for the country and just have different ideas on what that is.

      Nearly everyone on both The Left and The Right are people who want what is in their best interests and just have different ideas on who should pay for it.

  10. I see no reason to accept a Biden win because he’s clearly out of his mind and his election is just a gateway for his veep to take power. It may be legal but a hardcore leftist is not going to be acceptable for most. Couple that with a senate takeover and filibuster removal and we are looking at a full on Stalinist takeover. Good luck with whatever happens next. But trump is still a relatively saner choice.

    1. Sometimes in a democracy everyone gets the law shoved down their throats in an unpleasant way. You are vaguely concerned that Biden might choose an unacceptable VP. Try living in existential horror because a fat fucking con man clown show won power with the help of foreign rivals who want to destroy us. Sometimes you must take these things on the chin.

      1. foreign rivals who want to destroy us.

        The 1980s called, they want their foreign policy back.

        It’s revealing left wingers now claim they oppose Russia but in fact they sucked up to Russia [Obama: above, I’ll have more flexibility after the election. Clinton: reset].

        Left Wing anti-Russia sentiment is political theater attempting to support the debunked Russian collusion conspiracy theory. We all know if left wingers really believed Russia was out to destroy us they would consider them allies as they did during the Soviet days.

        1. More interesting too that in order to clap back at Trump the left is getting cozy with China. It’s amazing the amount of people that Trump broke.

          1. I am genuinely curious if you people ever actually watch Trump during one of his interviews or press conferences. There is something really wrong with that man. What are we supposed to do, not worry about it?

            1. What are we supposed to do, not worry about it?

              How would something being “wrong” prove Russian collusion? It seems left wingers believe something being “wrong” proves every bit of nonsense any idiot can come up with.

              Bizarre.

              1. You keep saying collusion because you think regurgitating Trump talking points is convincing to anyone not in the cult. I don’t necessarily think Trump twirled his mustache and accepted Russian help deliberately. The problem isn’t whether we get to zing Trump. It’s not a game. Russia interfere in an American election and is doing it again. The scandal is that you don’t care because you think it benefits your party. Treason for lunch anyone?

                1. You keep saying collusion because you think regurgitating Trump talking points

                  I say collusion because that’s what would actually be a problem.

                  Russia interfere in an American election and is doing it again.

                  If this is the standard all countries interfere in all our elections. In fact Russian actions were entirely irrelevant. They spent ~100k on juvenile facebook memes that wouldn’t have changed a freshman’s vote. It’s also far from clear they wanted Trump since Democratic positions are far more beneficial to them. The probability is Russia wants to create conflict which makes far leftists like you their allies. That would explain why their “ads” were so stupid – to give you a hook to all other Americans stupid.

                  Congratulations you made their campaign a greater success than they could possibly have imagined.

                  1. So nobody voted because they thought Hillary was part of a leftist conspiracy. Despite the fact that literally all you people had during the election was hysterical Russian conspiracy theories about evil Hillary, nobody voted based on that.

                    It was 100% about how great an administrator Donald Trump seemed.

                    I’m not sure which is more fucking stupid and disturbing, to be honest.

                    1. So nobody voted because they thought Hillary was part of a leftist conspiracy.

                      Remember, the issue is how Russian facebook memes caused Trump to win. Even if every Trump vote was based on this justification it doesn’t show anyone reached this conclusion due to the Russian efforts. Given how stupid the their memes were it’s impossible to believe they could effect anyone who did not already believe that.

                      Think about how stupid Tony must be not to understand this.

                      all you people had during the election was hysterical Russian conspiracy theories about evil Hillary,

                      I don’t think even Tony knows what he’s referring to any more. He has eight nouns in his vocabulary and they come out in entirely random order. This is how word salad was invented.

                    2. We should agree that the election turned on a kind of hysteria about Hillary vaguely being corrupt or sick or whatever. It’s not about a single meme, it’s about shaping voter perception. Everyone was surprised by the outcome, remember? That means it could have turned on anything. Russia absolutely won that election for itself.

                    3. I voted for Johnson, and will vote for JoJo, because both of the candidates sucked.

                      I love that 4 years later you’re still blaming russian Facebook ads for Hillary completely ignoring two key states, saying she wanted to kill coal (rightly or wrongly), and pissing off the old Bill Clinton blue collar Democrat base.

                      Never change lil buddy.

                2. I’m sorry, but “collusion” was introduced by Trump accusers, not Trump.

                3. Maybe people keep saying “collusion” because that’s what you pig ignorant fuckers repeated ad nauseum for two and a half years.

            2. I don’t like the guy because there is something wrong with him. But I also base my critique of him on legitimate criticisms. I don’t make things up to outrage about. And I sure as heck don’t do it in such clearly hypocritical ways.

              If you don’t like Trump, fine. But when you use BS narratives as evidence against him, all you are doing is literally proving him right and detracting from your legitimate complaints.

              1. Nothing I’ve asserted is not true, and whether American democracy is being undermined by a foreign power is something I suggest might interest you. If not, go with God.

                1. Except you are freaking out over Russian interference like it is something new. Russians interfere, Chinese interfere, Israelis interfere, Germans interfere, we interfere.

                  Approach the subject with rationality and not hysteria. The only reason you are having problems with it is because of the result of Trump. If Trump hadn’t won, literally you or no one would be talking about Russian interference.

                  1. Trump is the living, waddling success story of malicious foreign interference. Maybe it’s something that should be brushed off when they’re merely making the attempt. What about when they succeeded?

                    1. Yeah, no he’s not. Back to crazy conspiracy land we go.

                      Man, your use of “Russia interference” is so akin to Repubs that keep shouting “if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor” to make a point against Obama. And at least that was an actual action on the part of Obama.

                      Eventually it just starts to sound unhinged.

                    2. Russia engaged in a propaganda campaign that as much as anything else resulted in Trump’s election. It happened. I don’t like that it happened.

                    3. I might add, Republican propagandists don’t get off the hook because they spread malicious lies without realizing Russia was peddling the same. If the same lies appear on FOX News as came from the typing fingers of a spammer in Moscow, that’s an even bigger problem than if the lies were only coming from Russians.

                    4. How about Democrat propagandists? Should they also be punished for saying untrue things? How about my neighbor, is it off to jail for him for his false op-ed? How about you, should you get punished for your gaslighting? Or wait, are you the one who gets to be the grand overseer and decide what information is allowed for public consumption?

                      Your hatred of free speech is starting to show and your tribal hackery is on full display.

                    5. Propaganda is a specific thing. Democrats simply don’t lie, on the whole. They don’t even consider it an option since their followers are not the most gullible people on the planet like you guys. We have fact checkers and value facts. You don’t and you don’t.

                    6. Democrats simply don’t lie, on the whole. They don’t even consider it an option since their followers are not the most gullible people on the planet like you guys. We have fact checkers and value facts.

                      In fact Democrats lie about everything and they have an entire propaganda machine to support those lies.

                      A few examples:

                      – 1 in 4 women on campus are sexually assaulted.
                      – Half of personal bankruptcies in America are due to medical bills.
                      – Obamacare will save the typical family 2,500 / year
                      – The Americans revolution was fought to preserve slavery.
                      – Trump colluded with Russia to win the election.

                    7. And with this gigantic whopper of a statement: “Democrats simply don’t lie, on the whole”, I will bid your kool-aid addled mind adieu!

            3. “ There is something really wrong with that man.”

              There’s a reason people don’t give a shit about hyperbolic takes like this. You said the same thing about BushHitler, EvilMcCain and BindersFullOfWomenRomney. You’ll be saying the same thing of all the future Republican nominees and presidents. Nobody but your echo chamber cares about these boring and lame complaints.

              1. They do seem to be on a general downward trend. Who are they going to run next time, Milo? Pepe the frog? A greasy plastic bag?

                So you don’t watch him speak, I take it. He was asked to comment on the still-warm corpse of John Lewis and he said “He didn’t come to my inauguration. Big mistake.” You seriously don’t see anything wrong with that?

                That makes you the problem too, doesn’t it?

                1. Fuck John Lewis. He was trashing Trump up until the point he took his dirt nap. But Trump said “something, something, my inauguration.” Yeah, I’m not going to be upset that Trump had an opinion about another politician. Nice try though Tony! Toni! Toné!

                  1. You would consider it as crazy at it is if he had a D after his name. You are why we can’t have nice things.

      2. “Try living in existential horror because a fat fucking con man clown show won power with the help of foreign rivals who want to destroy us. Sometimes you must take these things on the chin.”

        Considered therapy?

      3. I remember, but Bill Clinton was elected nearly thirty years ago now, time to get over it.

      4. How many American soldiers have been killed under Trump? How many countries have we overthrown? Trump’s foreign policy has been the best for American since Reagan. I don’t get how lefities support globalism/neoconservativism.

          1. ~2K for eight years of Obama…<100 for four years of Trump? These are US troops….can we add up civilians in countries we overthrew during Bush and Obama? Iraq? Libya? Yemen (sorry yes that was started by Bush/Obama? Over 100K easily..shoud Trump pull US troops out of Afghanistan? Yes…should we stop arming the Saudi's…yes bu compared to Bush and Obama, Trump is an Ike not a Johnson

  11. Oh and here is one of the more horrifying results of that survey:

    Thirteen percent of Americans say it would be a good thing for American military leaders to suspend elections, close down the legislature, and temporarily take charge of the government in order to address extreme corruption. Another 18 percent aren’t sure if it would be a good thing for the military to take such an action.

    So a good 1/3rd of the public is either on the fence about, or actively supportive of, the idea of a military dictatorship. Eek.

    1. This is example #578 of why pure democracy is a bad idea.

    2. Wow

    3. That is terrifying.

      Probably shouldn’t have spent six months hitting the gas on pandemic fear mongering.

    4. That is because the political elites have shit on the Constitution for decades..when the SC decided the whole big govt state was legal and Nixon decided deficits could be paid for by the Fed’s printing press as policy..its been downhill from there

  12. foreign rivals who want to destroy us.

    The 1980s called, they want their foreign policy back.

    1. Russia never installed a US president in the 1980s so I suggest it’s a new ball game altogether.

      1. “Russia never installed a US president in the 1980s”

        How is FantasyLand these days? Any covid restrictions?

        1. Something tells me mask wearing is mandatory in Tony’s fantasy world. LOL!

      2. Tony, this is going to be really hard for you. We’ve all been afraid to tell you because we were afraid you might hurt yourself. The Mueller report actually did come out….like a year ago. You’re going to want to sit down……

        1. So you’ve read it?

          1. Much more than Mueller did…

          2. Nice trick. I have read many large excerpts from it. Have you? I’ll bet the fact that you haven’t won’t do anything to remove that stupid permasmug smile off your face.

            1. My mistake, you’re right. It’s just No collusion delusion! printed on page 1 and then it ends.

              1. Hmm, number of charges brought against ANYBODY for it? Why, none.

  13. “the evolving state of American politics.”

    ‘Fuck you.’
    ‘Fuck YOU.’

  14. The impeachment circus at the end of last year was the expression of the Democrats not accepting the results of the 2016 election. As were Hillary Clinton’s many indignant accusations against certain categories of women being unduly influenced by the men in their lives voting against her.

  15. The leftists will start even less peaceful protesting when Trump is reelected.

    1. Depends on if the election was legitimate. If Republicans take away democracy, they’ve eliminated the legitimacy of the government, and by our very founding principles we’d be righteous and correct to take up arms against it. I wonder if the perpetual civil war crowd would go along with it or if they’d start fitting themselves with matching jackboots.

      1. “take up arms against it” What arms? because it seems like the left has forgone that all important natural right.

        or do you mean fireworks, shields made out of trashcans, and a stylish black balaclava purchased on Etsy?

      2. How amusing Tony justifies civil war and mocks those who justify civil war in consecutive sentences. What a clear illustration of his partisan insanity.

        1. Democracy being ruined = legitimate cause for revolution.

          Black man president = not a legitimate cause for revolution.

          So glad I could clear that up.

          1. So by “Democracy being ruined” you mean the current government colluding with its preferred candidate to defame her rival using a fraudulent investigation?

            1. No, that goes against his simplistic desired narrative of “Democrats good, Republicans evil.” I will give him credit though, not having to think for yourself does make life a lot easier.

              1. No, a campaign engaging in hardball politics is not treason. At least until the campaign starts accepting help from a foreign adversary.

  16. It worries me that so many of you aren’t horrified and outraged by the outright totalitarianism the left has demonstrated in just the last 6 months, let alone over the years

    1. Par example?

    2. It’s because the left enjoys being part of that ‘team’. They just don’t care about hating on their deplorable neighbors and if it means trains and camps for those that don’t get in line….well….if its for a better world, so be it.

      it’s very worrisome

      1. You people are actually putting undesirables in camps! Trump endorsed China’s concentration camps. Camps for undesirables is a thing you people support right now actively.

        Where are the progressive camps for MAGA hats? Point me in the direction. Just one camp.

        1. Camps for undesirables is a thing you people support right now actively.

          You can see the language coming apart. Apparently Tony’s frothing so hard it’s effecting his typing.

          You people are actually putting undesirables in camps!

          It’s like he doesn’t know what words mean.

          1. All I can tell of Tony is he’s lost his mind. When someone is so set that their political team is morally superior to everyone else, you know cult lunacy is not far behind.

            1. It’s a particular problem for leftists who spend 99% of their time with other crazed leftists. With no one present to point out what they’re saying isn’t true they just keep reinforcing each others’ fantasies.

              1. Progressivism has become the newest religion out there.

                1. Oh yes. Oh yes indeed. But then.. the State is god to them.

            2. Tony has always been this way – it’s what I like about him.
              His assessment of reality is completely psychotic, but he’s at least honest about where his loyalties lie.
              It’s the chemjeff/espresso types that have really showed the mental dissolution and all consuming psychotic breakdown of the left.
              The more reality disagrees with what their fantasy says reality should be, the more aggressively delusional they must become to maintain that fantasy

              1. That is a good point about Tony.

              2. That’s right, I’m “delusional” because I don’t conform to the caricature in Nardz’s head.

                “Why won’t you agree with the voices in my head? Huh?”

                1. No, you’re delusional because your identity and sense of self worth are defined by the moral value you assign yourself based on a fantasy that is increasingly incompatible with what happens in the real world.
                  We don’t have to look far to see it: “systemic racism” is ever present (except you’re not part of it, you’re one of the Good People) and slavery (which ended a century and a half ago) dictates the financial situation of America today, but “cultural marxism” is made up by “right wingers” despite the statements of your allies describing the world in terms of identity classes of oppressors vs oppressed in endless struggle.
                  Fucking Oprah, one of the wealthiest women ever, just claimed the US operates according to a skin color based caste system. Despite being disproven by her very existence, this is “her truth”.
                  You were yesterday just defending the idea that 2+2=5 if you just change what the symbols represent…

                  1. The 2+2=5 thing really is a great demonstration of leftist mass psychosis.
                    Sensory input is 2+2, which objectively means 4, but the psychotic’s fantasy dictates that it be 5.
                    But 5 is literally the wrong answer. If you go around expecting 5 when you encounter 2+2, you’ll keep being surprised when reality doesn’t respond to you the way you expect.
                    Because your expectations are wrong, based on an incorrect formula of cause and effect.

              3. That’s just what someone fully propagandized into the American right would say. The more your guy fails, the more they have to invent a new reality. Obviously those of us who live in actual reality will appear increasingly unhinged to you.

          2. You could just say that illegal immigrants are the right kind of undesirables to put in camps.

        2. First of all, many people here have spoken out against it, so stop collectivizing. Second of all, I didn’t realize we were going into Mexico and forcing those people to cross the border.

          1. Then I’m talking to the vast majority of people here who are OK with brutalizing human beings as long as they’re brown immigrants.

            It goes without saying that it’s not OK to put humans in concentration camps even if they did commit a misdemeanor.

            The point is the dehumanization, see.

            1. But without dehumanizatin, right-wing media would have no reason to exist!

      2. Where are these trains? Where are these camps? Do you realize how much you sound like a paranoid nutter when you try to insinuate that left-wing death camps are right around the corner? Especially when it’s fkn Grandpa Senile Biden who is on the ballot, not exactly some firebreathing radical?

        1. I see you didn’t read or listen that much to Sanders supporters, I take it?

          1. I did happen to miss the groundswell of Sanders supporters who said “hey, let’s open up death camps and throw conservatives into cattle cars”, yes.

            1. Huh. You miss that on purpose on actually miss that?

              1. You mean, the one or two nutjobs who said something nice about the concept of gulags? Yup they said it, and they are not representative of the Entire Left Wing, just like the right-wingers who come here *on a daily basis* and advocate for the mass murder of progressives don’t represent the Entire Right Wing.

                As I said there are a vanishingly small number of people who might qualify as actual Stalinists. There are more alt-right white nationalists than there are Stalinists. If you are going to get your panties in a wad over two guys who said “hurr durr let’s send Republicans to camps” then I would expect you to be trembling in fear every time Richard Spencer leaves his mother’s basement.

                And just to be clear, their views are horrible and reprehensible, nobody ought to be advocating for anyone to be sent to any camps. That applies just as much to the idiot BernieBro as it does to the fascists like Nardz around here. But I also am smart enough to realize that Nardz does not represent every right-winger (fortunately) and i have met enough left-wingers and read enough mainstream left-wing sources to know that the idiot BernieBro does not represent them either.

        2. No it’ll just be mass vaccination and cryptocurrency at the behest of the World Masters.

          1. Would that be before or after Uncle Biden throws the conservatives into camps?

    3. It horrifies me that you use bad behavior on the part of your opponents to justify their mass murder, all while calling THEM “Stalinists”

      1. You should probably riot, close down most businesses, and force us all to wear masks in public to prove me wrong

    4. Agreed. After years of railing on about the religious right telling them what their values should be, they now tell the rest of us what we can think, say, hear, read and do down to the letter.

  17. If Trump loses, and I am not sure he will, whether he accepts the results or not is a moot point. He can walk out the door head held high, or he can be forcibly removed screaming and crying, but he will go either way.

    Let’s be honest, the Democrats still haven’t accepted that Trump won, but he is still the President, even if spied on and harassed the whole time.

    1. He can walk out the door head held high, or he can be forcibly removed screaming and crying, but he will go either way.

      Let’s not forget some journalist asserted Bush would cancel elections also. As much as left wingers pretend Trump is unique nothing they’ve said about him is any different than what they say about every Republican candidate.

      1. Perhaps it’s arguable whether Democrats overreact or underreact to the 2000 coup. I choose to care, not least because of the horrific shitshow that was the Bush administration. If only we knew those were the innocent days of Republican misrule.

        1. 2000 coup? Are you kidding? You realize every analysis that has been done has shown that Bush won Florida, right?

          1. Unclear. It’s hard to know the truth given the vastness of the rightwing conspiracy, and those were the days when it was organized.

            I consider the electoral college to be sufficiently undemocratic to be an outrage itself.

            1. So you literally just ignore reality that goes against your desired belief? You have to be a troll at this point.

              1. When the guy gets to rule over my life despite being the candidate a democratic majority of Americans explicitly rejected, it peeves. You would understand if your guy got the shaft.

                1. My guy has gotten the shaft in every presidential election since I’ve been able to vote.

        2. Hahahahaha

          I can’t believe you said that. You know people can read your posts right?

          1. What?

            1. That was for Tony. Sorry if I misthreaded.

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  19. The American populace is going to be REALLY SURPRISED when Jo wins. The Democratic Party and Republican Party are going to have a fit. Or two. Maybe three fits?

  20. So what was perfectly fine for John Kerry in 2004 is Orange Man Bad for Trump in 2020? OK, thanks for clarifying that. We now return control of your website to your Silicon Valley overlords.

    This comment not approved by Silicon Valley brain slugs.

  21. There is no need to rig “the election”. There doesn’t need to be massive voter fraud. Just a little here and there, a key county in a key state, enough to tip the balance of electoral votes one way or another. But the bottom line is we’re either going to get 4 more years of Trump or 4 years of Biden. No one is happy about it, but it’s unlikely you’ll see a huge GOP effort like the Democrats did trying to unseat an elected President. Conservatives won’t be rioting in the streets tearing down statutes and fighting police. If Trump wins, that’s what we’ll see continuing from the Left.

    1. There was a huge increase in rightwing terrorism all throughout Obama’s presidency. They’ll probably resume shooting up black churches like the good old days. I can’t imagine they’ve become less paranoid after the Trump experience.

      1. Rando racist piece of shit = right wing terrorist.

        Bernie Bro baseball shooter = misguided lamb.

        That about right Tony?

        1. Blah blah blah.

          “Far-right terrorism has significantly outpaced terrorism from other types of perpetrators, including from far-left networks and individuals inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaeda. Right-wing attacks and plots account for the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994, and the total number of right-wing attacks and plots has grown significantly during the past six years.”

    2. Agreed. But I believe we’ll get rioting from the left regardless of outcome. One party gives them license, the other an “excuse.”

    3. we’re either going to get 4 more years of Trump or 4 years of Biden

      Biden will not serve 6 months after election day before Chancellor Rice sets the Reichstag on fire and 25th Amendment’s Joe out of office for senility. He’ll be glad to go without the bullet in the back of the head.

  22. I was a native Californian. I’m an ex-Oregonian, soon to be ex-Washingtonian as well.
    I used to watch illegal aliens who couldn’t speak a lick of English sign up to vote at the CA DMV. For three solid decades I’ve listened to rhetoric about why voter ID is racist or targets the “impoverished,” meanwhile being told we all need Real ID within the next couple of years.
    Demos have promised to give illegals a path to citizenship when we haven’t even discussed granting work visas.
    We’ve had Russiagate, a partisan “impeachment” and now Covid-1984 for the Great Reset and the NWO.
    And we’re actually having arguments about whether or not a particular party will accept the results of the most contentious election in all of modern US history, possibly ever? Really?
    We’re choosing whether or we want to become socialists? Really? Who the hell is being fooled here?
    As a libertarian, I’m all for whatever you want to do but damn you’ve all been smoking far too much weed if you think this election is R vs D.

    1. Whatever it is, the Democrat party has to be obliterated come November.

    2. I know that libertarians are individuals, and as such, exist on a continuum with varying differences and priorities, but this comment section- wow. Ironic, considering the crux of the article, wouldn’t ya’ll say?

      What was so appealing about Libertarianism was not it’s relatively centrist point of view, which in today’s parlance typically means compromise for the sake of compromise (gag). Rather, here was a platform that could easily and accurately be summed up as simple as saying I’m socially liberal and fiscally conservative while having well reasoned principals bolstered in our founding documents and evidenced by our meteoric and miraculous success as a nation to support it.

      Most of you seem to be way more versed in politics, history, law, and even civics than me, so pardon if this comes off condescending and/or naive, but – what – in – the – fuck?

  23. Progressives still believe Russia rigged ’16. Now they believe Trump will have USPS slow down delivery of ballots.

  24. Democracy is in peril, for really realz this time guys! Trust us.

  25. After 20+ years of Dem party leadership pushing the mantra that the only way their party can lose any election is if the other side cheats, it’s surprising that only 57% of their membership say they’d support calling for a “do-over”.

    I’d guess that trump playing coy about committing to accept the results again are a troll to get the Dems to once again push the narrative that the integrity of the election process is certain, except that didn’t stop them from immediately spinning around and spending three years calling the result “illegitimate” in a span of under 48 hours last time; maybe he’s crazy enough to think they might have something like rhetorical integrity now?

    Either way, as disturbing as talk/tweets can be, the actions needed to make any of it happen aren’t within his power to take. California might turn into something of a shitshow without any help from trump if Newsome can’t make up his mind how the votes are going to be collected; they sent notices that all registered voters would get mail-in ballots, then maybe 6 weeks later announced there will still be some live voting sites but only if early voting is allowed (something that L.A. County managed to make a complete mess of in the primary due a plan that depended upon millions of people not acting according to general human nature). Right now, I have no idea whether there’s something I need to do to make a particular option available or if the office I’d need to call is even open right now because of the renewed partial shutdown and budget cuts (apparently they didn’t expect the shutdown to lead to any loss of tax withholding from paychecks that aren’t going out and sales tax on stuff that isn’t being sold).

  26. I have less fears of Trump accepting a loss than I do of a majority of Democrats accepting a loss.

    Hopefully both Trump and Biden will lose the election and Jo Jorgensen will become the next President. If she does not win the election then we will have a rough time regardless of which buffoon is elected.

    To me Trump and Biden are both essentially the same candidate, where they both want to take away some of our freedoms. Perhaps focusing of slightly different freedoms they want to take away from us, but a freedom lost is still a freedom lost.

    With Trump we will have the 95% of the media playing watch dog or simply making crap up, but with Biden we will have 95% of the media providing cover for gaffes and such.

    If Biden wins the Democrats will accept the win and 25% of Republicans will refuse to accept the results. If Trump wins 80% Republicans will accept the win and 80% of the Democrats will refuse to accept the results.

    Like I said before, hopefully both Trump and Biden will lose the election and Jo Jorgensen will become the next President.

    1. If there was a better time for The Libertarian Party to make a move, it would be now. I’m feeling very pessimistic about it, tbh.

    2. When has the media ever covered up a politician’s gaffes? They live for that crap. The media is a collection of corporations. They aren’t interested in protecting politicians for The Cause.

      You guys have got to bite the bullet and run your candidates in the Republican primary. If you can’t get out of that primary, the entire American public is going to be an even tougher sell. If you can, then you have a real shot at putting a libertarian in the White House. The system will simply not permit a third party win.

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  28. 1. Re Russian/other foreign interference in elections, in US culture, to create division. While the US has done its share of propagandizing in other countries, I believe that in terms of influencing the US public, Russia is better at doing it than we are at recognizing it. I spent hours on center-left/left newspaper comment sections in the leadup to the 2016 election. The patterns were pretty clear, partly because some of the trolls fuck up and post the identical message over and over. People in the US who spend time in academia, the media or a general blue community are subject to certain pressures already; how can republicans be people, etc. So in order to whip up support for Bernie the trolls would heap opprobrium on anyone even slightly in favor of Clinton. They didn’t have to make sense, it eventually verges into the “we must!” territory and it’s so familiar to the blue folks that this very vicarious intimidation lands and takes effect. I think at least a third of the voices on the average platform were paid. The other form of the paid troll is the token conservative who seems to be in the comments in order to rile up libs. What they’re there for is to provide a target for the Bernie trolls. They’ll type outrageous things in all caps and generally embody the bad guy which Democrats will fear/loathe; there’s the Bernie trolls arguing with it and seeming courageous. They created a dialogue at the very least in the NYT, Guardian and Nation. I think they also invented the “three-sentence comment” form which is now very popular.
    2. When I look at the comments here I see a pattern with some similarities and some differences. There are a few “liberals” here to argue, but if they are paid trolls they are making probably twice as much per hour as the ones that troll blue comment sections, because the use of language is much more fluent, people actually ask questions, and although there are clearly long-running feuds, it seems to stop at “you’re an ass” rather than rolling over into “you’re an ass and you should die,” which is the blue comment section version.
    I draw two conclusions from this. One, whoever pays the trolls believed it would be more effective to target the left in the leadup to 2016. They stoke fear of the right and they stoke fear of intra-left divisions. Every loose end is pulled until things unravel. It never ends with a sense of peace. Every thread is tracked up with supposed rightwingers saying unprintable things, who are then attacked by seemingly principled left being heroes. The good buy-bad guy narrative in generated in the comment sections perhaps more even than in actual articles.

    If you never read any other media you might believe the world sketched in those comment sections. After the election it actually quieted down quite a bit. If those posters were mostly actually individuals with an internet hobby, I think most of them would have kept posting. In 2019 it was heating up again, but people weren’t buying the same “Bernie or bust” stuff anymore, there were some more centrist voices, maybe those were the CIA trolls. Regardless, then Bernie started to lose and that machine lost its best tool. Biden has been largely out of the news since. So to speak I think the propaganda machine blew their wad in 2019 and enough centrists got fed up with the comment sections, I think the machine had to move to twitter.

    3. As far as I can tell DJT has, termite-like, hollowed out the State Department to a bizarre extent. This benefits Russia; our worldwide dominance system may be unsavory, but if we simply pull up stakes, the vacuum left behind is there for the taking. Arguably, leaving the Iran deal benefited Russia.

    4. The New York real estate world has been mafia from top to bottom for decades. DJT could not have been successful in that milieu without mob connections, including Russian mob connections, which were live there as early as the nineties. One of his early TV appearances, he kissed Chris Christie once on each cheek. Neither of them go around kissing people. I took that as a signal on the airwaves of exactly whose candidate he was.

    5. Did NAFTA and immigration need to be dealt with? Yes. The democrats going full-neoliberal was bound to come back on them someday. However, Trump has not dealt with the immigration issue, too many people benefit financially from the status quo and he draws out the whole wall thing as if that would make a difference. The binational, cross-border criminal-security state is apparently too strong for him. If Biden were to win and actually staff the state department, though, that alone would cause problems for Putin. Trump’s removing troops from Germany which were placed there to deter Russia.

    6. If the Republicans really, really wanted to win they would try to run someone other than Trump, I think. Someone who is not a stable genius mob stooge but with his policies. I think he’s dug in too deep for that though.

    7. The “delay the election” thing is almost as large a signal as “russia, if you’re listening.”

    8. I hope Biden has a very good security detail. Times like these, candidates can wind up in physical danger. I don’t blame him for never leaving the basement, as far as I’m concerned he shouldn’t leave the basement until the inauguration and then only with a bulletproof vest. Conversely, nothing would break the country quite like an attempt on Trump.

    9. I think they’re waiting to see who the VP pick will be before the trolls really roll out in force. Then yes I think it will begin to go to hell in a dramatic way. I agree that the goal of the interference has been larger than Trump, but it has shown that we are so willing to think the worst of each other in this country. I think some of the anti-pipeline protesters are absolutely Russian-linked if you go far enough up the chain; energy independence used to be a leftie goal but now it is absolutely not (no blood for oil, indeed). Really most of our political and ideological sphere is about as full of bs as it can get without people really calling for blood. It is so fraught to discuss politics in person, people draw their conclusions from watching online fracas unfold and those conclusions are very much staged.

    10. Even if Biden does win the chances of D keeping the presidency beyond 4 years are not great. The paid twittersphere is getting ready to destroy whoever the VP pick is and make it impossible for that person to carry the party nomination in 4 years even if they do win this time. I’m planning to vote for Biden but the circus won’t end even if he wins and Trump does concede.

    1. This is a long post, but you show an utter lack of insight.
      1. Weird that my experience from Quora to WaPo and others was the exact opposite. Hillary voters had no arguments other than: a) “vagina!”, b) “experience”, and c) “orangemanbad”. Conservatives/Trump supporters, on the other hand, knew they were in hostile territory and had to make reasonable/strong arguments. What GivenABadName writes above is literally repetition of the MSM narrative.
      2. You’re being extremely biased here, though after years of psychotic leftists crying and consistently being proven wrong, they do sometimes get shorter replies than before
      3. The State Department has long been the most corrupt agency in DC. That’s how $6 billion can just “disappear” when Clinton was SoS, how Alger Hiss could keep a high position, how they can run programs to give strategic and material aid to jihadists, etc. The Russia boogeyman is ridiculous, but you go on parroting it while ignoring China.
      4. Yea, DJT has totes been an asset of the USSR since 1987. Good call.
      5. Was this supposed to be coherent? People can judge the changes to NAFTA for themselves (either Trump’s deal is way worse or it changes nothing seem to be the arguments). Trump’s initiatives with Mexico and Guatemala have significantly reduced illegal crossing. How you conflate all this with Russia is… special.
      6. Ok, you’re an idiot who lives in a bubble. There’s simply no other way to put it. Sure, coastal elites and chamber of commerce Rs might prefer another candidate, but the base sure as hell doesn’t. Did you miss the record turnouts for all those primaries he was running unopposed in?
      7-10. Wow. You spent a lot of time to write something very stupid.

      1. Yes, the only argument for not handing the most powerful government in the world to a fat fascist charlatan was “vagina!” If only we could all be as thoughtful as the average internet trump supporter.

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  31. If no one goes to prison for the russiagate hoax, and I mean big names, then there’s a 100% chance the left will massively riot unlike anything we’ve ever seen if Trump wins. Allowing that farce to go unpunished vindicates it. Millions of people sincerely believe Trump is an illegitimate president because Russia “interfered” in the election. I bet most of those people assume it was hacking votes, having no idea that it was just a handful of trolls who happen to live in Russia saying laughable meanie things about Hillary, while John Podesta fell for a basic phishing email. lolz smfh

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