Police

A Man Died After Police Held Him on Hot Asphalt for 6 Minutes. He Was Reported for Loitering.

Excessive force is certainly an issue. So is overcriminalization.

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The Phoenix Police Department (PPD) is conducting an internal investigation after a man was killed when three officers pinned and arrested him on hot asphalt.

Ramon Lopez, who was 28 years old, died on August 4 after being subdued on a roadway for approximately six minutes. It was about 100 degrees that morning, and blacktop temperatures can climb 40 to 60 degrees above outside temperatures.

Current conversations around police reform in the U.S. primarily hinge on excessive and sometimes unconstitutional tactics used by law enforcement. But Lopez's story shows that overpolicing and overcriminalization are also salient parts of the discussion, particularly when considering his arrest was inspired by a 911 call about Lopez wearing ripped pants and loitering in a parking lot.

"He's kinda acting funny, he's over there sticking his tongue out, I don't know what's wrong with him," a woman told a Phoenix 911 dispatcher that day. "And then he got ripped pants on, and he jumping around…looking at people's cars."

"Alright, what is he doing exactly?" the dispatcher asks.

"He's out there looking at people's cars," the woman repeats. "Sticking his tongue out. Holding his, you know, his private parts."

"You say he's exposing his private parts?" the dispatcher interjects.

"No, he's holding it, like he's scratching on it or something," the woman replies. Video footage shows him briefly clutching the crotch area of his shorts.

A police vehicle arrived at the scene shortly thereafter. At the sight of the car, Lopez darted across the street and into a convenience store; an officer followed and met Lopez outside as he exited the shop. Lopez ran, throwing a drink over his shoulder that the PPD alleges he stole from the convenience store, though that didn't factor into his arrest as law enforcement wasn't yet aware of that allegation. He was tackled onto the hot roadway and subdued by three officers after a scuffle, during which one officer can be heard saying "left arm broken" in reference to Lopez. Officers handcuffed him and placed him in leg restraints after he was no longer moving. Lopez can be heard screaming and groaning in the body cam footage.

"You're fine," one officer says.

Additional backup then arrived. At one point, at least seven officers can be seen in the footage, not including the cop whose body cam was recording. After leaving Lopez on the asphalt for a few minutes, officers carried his body into a police vehicle, at which point they realized he was unresponsive. They then dragged his body back out and placed him on the ground. "Wake up buddy," an officer says as he shakes Lopez's body.

Fire personnel were called to the scene to provide medical treatment. He was pronounced dead later that day at a nearby hospital. Lopez's partner said he had been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia; his mother maintains that, while he had intense anxiety and was starting to seek help from medical professionals, she was not aware of any specific diagnosis.

"Conclusions about whether the actions of the officers are consistent with department policy and the law will not be made until all facts are known and an internal investigation is complete," Sergeant Mercedes Fortune said in a statement.

It's not the first time the PPD has come under scrutiny. The department has developed somewhat of a reputation: They are the subject of a recent lawsuit from a teen who suffered second-degree burns after a cop allegedly pinned her on hot asphalt in August of last year after law enforcement responded to complaints of a fight between high school students. Also last summer, a PPD officer assaulted a young father while a different officer threatened to shoot his fiancé because their daughter was suspected of stealing a Barbie from a dollar store. "Get your fucking hands up," one officer said. "I'm gonna put a fucking cap right in your fucking head!" An internal investigation resulted in that cop's firing.

And in May, a Phoenix officer shot a man in the back at least twice while responding to a noise complaint.

Law enforcement certainly has a rightful place in society. But our country's criminalization of small nuisances, and the corresponding gut impulse to call the police for those routine annoyances, can have deadly consequences.

UPDATE: Photos provided to The Arizona Republic show Ramon Lopez's back with purple and white streaks, which appear to be burns.

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  2. These things are terrible but there is not a damn thing that can be done about it. Antifa and BLM have assured that the public no longer gives a shit what the cops do to people. They just want order.

    1. The stock market tanked at a rumor that this guy was black, but it seems he was just a white hispanic. Disposable.

      1. Who cares, he got what he deserved.

        (w)hite people are finally getting a taste of what (B)lack, (b)rown and (i)ndigenous bodies have had to experience on a daily basis since time immemorial.

        /BLM logic

        1. Yeah the Ashanti really knew how to give it to the other blacks.

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      2. White Hispanic, like George Z.

        Apparently there are peer reviewed studies* that show there is actually, statistically speaking, no disparity among racial groups for people killed by cops.

        Of course statistics is a Western/ white supremacy construct. It’s the narrative that matters most.

        *MI State University, 2020, withdrawn from publication d/t being “improperly framed” [i.e., how dare you even]

      3. This is why it should be “All lives matter”.

    2. Nobody has a good answer for what to do about all the Karens. When they have a problem with somebody and want someone to deal with that person, who will they call?

      1. Ghostbusters?

      2. That dumbass Karen has blood on her hands. Hope she feels it for the rest of her useless life. Don’t fucking call the cops for shit. Ive been saying that since I was like 8 years old. It’s common sense.

    3. And that is the worst thing about all this. I care a lot about police misbehavior, over-criminalization and realted issues. I also care a lot about continuing to improve race relations and racial disparities in this country.
      BLM and all of these activists have destroyed an excellent opportunity to actually reform some of these things. In the beginning of June, pretty much everyone was on board with the idea that police get away with too much sometimes. But the fucking activists destroyed all of that, while pushing insane social justice theories that will almost certainly set race relations back significantly. I just hope more people who aren’t insane fucking commies wake up to this before it really gets ugly.

        1. I get that sense. I’m not yet willing to declare it a certainty. There are a lot of people with a lot of different motivations involved, I’m sure.

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  3. Okay, but what did he die of? Was someone kneeling on his neck?

    Why is THIS worth Reason writing about but nothing has written about the Kenosha shooting since Trump sent in the National Guard?

    1. “Okay, but what did he die of? ”

      A tell for bullshit propaganda is when completely obvious and crucial facts are entirely glossed over. Just look for what’s *not* said, and know that whatever it is, it contradicts The Narrative.

      Just another post hoc ergo propter hoc article from Reason’s pomo child writer.

      All his articles are like this. “A police officer woke up in the morning *and then* a poor man in police custody died.”

    2. My guess is that he may have died of seizures.

  4. How about waiting for an autopsy? Generally speaking, people don’t die if they are on the ground, even hot ground, for six minutes, unless there is something else wrong with them. Burns, sure. But dying?

    Regarding the other issue, the guy was clearly acting nuts. In a perfect world, every person would be armed so if a crazy person started acting too crazy, they wouldn’t have to rely on the police for defense against said crazy person. But we aren’t there. Old people and women are going to call the police for protection against crazies.

    1. Also, here’s a legit question. What should police actually do when the person they need to speak to immediately takes off running? Do we set a base policy of just ignoring them if they flee?

      1. The force used should depend on their reason for pursuing him.

        It’s Billy, so he may have left out tiny details like the guy decapiting a few people, but assuming the narrative as written, I don’t see justification for chasing him down and tackling him.

        Of course, Billy doesn’t ask the police for it. Reasonable suspicion for use of drugs? I don’t know.

        But after capturing him, they seem pretty professional. Body cameras for everyone. They drive him over to the shade. They check on him. They try to waken him. They check that he’s breathing. They call EMTs.

        It appears that he’s still alive when the EMTs come, and is only pronounced dead at the hospital.

        It’s Billy being his usual scumbag self, spinning the facts to paint The Narrative.

        1. I don’t see justification for chasing him down and tackling him.

          If there’s any actual journalists out there they could reach out to experienced police and ask about “crazy guy in parking lot” calls. My instinct is to agree with you but the cops might tell you about letting some crazy run off and he attacked a kid 5 minutes later or whatever.

          1. Yep.

            Maybe there is some policy or justification for stopping crazy man in the streets that I don’t know about, and Billy is not going to enlighten us on because that would ruin The Narrative.

            I’d like to hear what cops to have say about that. Their answer would be useful news no matter what it was.

            One of the great lacks in all these disccusions is anything to educate the public on how police work, and what their expectations are. There should be videos on what to do when cops try to stop you. What’s legal. What’s illegal. What’s their expectatations. What you need to do to ensure your safety.

            1. “I’d like to hear what cops to have say about that. Their answer would be useful news no matter what it was.

              One of the great lacks in all these disccusions is anything to educate the public on how police work, and what their expectations are. There should be videos on what to do when cops try to stop you. What’s legal. What’s illegal. What’s their expectatations. What you need to do to ensure your safety.”

              All of this. They can’t give ride-alongs to everybody. Some additional public education is needed.

              Oh, and bring back the asylums.

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              2. The problem is “how the police work”.
                Too often, police policy is shaped by police. They are their own echo chambers. If you remember Rodney King, the defense literally put up “use of force” expert who explained away hitting with batons and kicking to the head.
                You see, that is how they are trained and that is policy.
                Normal people look at a video and say, “Yep, the beat the shit out of that guy” and are left with “Oh, he might have deserved it, he had a past felony conviction” (or rather “he DID deserve it”).
                Do I think these police officer’s should get crucified? No. But they need more resources/training to deal with ‘troubled’ people.

            2. | There should be videos on what to do when cops try to stop you. What’s legal. What’s illegal. What’s their expectatations. What you need to do to ensure your safety.

              Am I being detained? AM I BEING DETAINED?

              See also, “Never talk to the police. Ever. Seriously, just STFU”

          2. Yeah, “the cops might tell you about letting some crazy run off and he attacked a kid 5 minutes later or whatever,” I bet they might just do that, especially the whatever part.

        2. Generally speaking, doctors are the ones who pronounce people dead. Its for the legal record of the death certificate. EMTs may know you’re dead, but they still have to take you to the hospital where a doc will confirm it for the record.

          The guy may well have been dead (or beyond saving) when the EMTs tossed him in the ambulance.

          1. At least several years ago, it was EMS practice to not declare a death oneself (although the medical director could do it over the radio once you were actually transporting and that was different) because it would (ha ha) deadline your rig until the Medical Examiner actually sent someone to verify it and have you drop it off. You can’t move until that’s over.

          2. Again, if there was an honest journalist around, he’d report *when* the fella died, instead of pretending he died on “the hot pavement”, when at most he died “propped up in a seated position in the shade”.

        3. but assuming the narrative as written, I don’t see justification for chasing him down and tackling him.

          So if you only engage in thefts or robberies below, say, $10000 and you’re a good runner, you should be able to get away with it again and again?

          And how would that help anyway? If you run away from police, even under your standard, you risk your own life, because you don’t know whether they are stopping you over an unpaid parking ticket or because someone mistook you for a mass murderer.

          1. If he was a good runner, the cop, with all the equipment etc wouldn’t have been able to catch him anyway.
            By your standard (it seems) the cops should always “fear the worst” and shoot anyone attempting to run away. Perhaps they should also start shooting if someone looked at them the wrong way?

            Of course IF the police acted like that, it would be hard to differentiate them from the criminals. Hmmm….

            Good thing they have a uniform.

            1. By your standard (it seems) the cops should always “fear the worst” and shoot anyone attempting to run away.

              Not at all. Police generally can shoot someone only if they reasonably believe that they are a significant threat to police or others.

              If you fail to obey “Police! Stop or we will shoot!”, that’s a pretty good indication that you are a significant threat to others.

              When police order you to stop, you stop, or else you risk getting shot.

              1. “If you fail to obey “Police! Stop or we will shoot!”, that’s a pretty good indication that you are a significant threat to others.”

                Or deaf, or insane. Most crazy people are no threat, but you are OK with the police shooting them – and with the death penalty for deafness.

      2. The police didn’t *need* to speak to the dude. They got a call about a guy loitering and acting funny in a parking lot.

        They show up and guy runs off – job done.

        Why should they be chasing people absent probable cause that a crime had actually been committed?

        1. IMO they shouldn’t have chased him. But absent that . . . everything else seems fairly appropriate.

        2. They show up and guy runs off – job done.

          That may have been the correct response this time, but it depends where the guy is running to.

          Guy being a nuisance in the parking lot who then runs into the convenience store? Well, you haven’t really removed the problem, you’ve just relocated it. If you’re in a residential area and he’s been acting fishy and he runs off, don’t you at least follow him long enough to make sure he’s not breaking into someone’s house/apartment or going to harass people? Or do you just assume he lives nearby and don’t bother?

          I don’t think there’s a simple pat answer for these questions.

          1. I don’t think there’s a simple pat answer for these questions.

            I think the answer is pretty simple: if police order you to stop, you stop. If they order you to identify yourself, you identify yourself. You do that even if you think their actions are illegitimate; you can always sue them later, but only if you live.

            1. remember when this was a Libertarian website???

              1. You are confusing Libertarianism with Anarchism again.

                I don’t necessarily blame you for that; the Libertarian Party has humored the crazier proponents of Anarchocapitalism for way too long. But Libertarians don’t believe there should be no laws, or that lawbreakers should avoid sanction. They just think there should be a lot fewer laws.

                1. And you are confusing behaving sensibly with libertarianism.

                  And there are a lot of people wavering on the border of libertarian/an-cap.

              2. The US is not a libertarian country, I simply recognize that fact, just like I recognize the fact that the socialist country I used to live in was not libertarian either.

                I obey the laws and try to survive even in non-libertarian countries because doing anything else is stupid.

            2. Or an even simpler answer would be to leave people alone who aren’t committing crimes. Acting weird in a parking lot and looking at cars with ripped pants isn’t exactly a reason to get the police involved.

              1. Looking in other peoples cars is absolutely probable cause for the police to detain and question. Libertarians should be the biggest proponents of this. If we slide back into lawlessness libertarianism is done as a poltical philosophy.

                1. No it isn’t. Not even close. Jesus, are we supposed to shield out eyes while walking down the street lest they stray onto a view of someone’s front seat?

                  1. And its perfectly legal for *cops* to walk through a parking lot looking into people’s cars.

                    If cops can do it so can everyone else.

                    1. “If cops can do it so can everyone else.” — Except an on-duty officer looking into cars to steal something probably amounts to about a millionth of the probability as a public nuisance doing the same.

                      Until law enforce officers have a running record of theft and self-gratifying homicide I really don’t think this mob against cops has much justification to it at all. It may exist in Democratic area’s but in the conservative environment I’ve seen my entire life; it’s just not the way they try to paint it. SO — Keep the protesting local to the ACTUAL problem area if one actually exists.

                    2. If cops can do it so can everyone else.

                      That’s not how the US works. That’s also not how private security would work in a libertarian society.

                      What you have in mind isn’t libertarianism, it’s a communist utopia.

            3. No. That’s not happening. That is not what you do in a free society. Cops do not stop me whilst I go about my lawful business unless they have a damn good reason.

              And absolutely no ‘papiere bitte’ bullshit.

          2. It’s not illegal to act weird and run. If there is no suspected crime, let him be.

          3. The thing is – the guy wasn’t even being a nuisance. He was ‘acting suspicious’.

            And, yeah, most of the time all you need to do with someone ‘acting suspicious’ is have a cop show up – and then that person decides that maybe whatever bullshit they were working their courage up to do isn’t worth it.

            Its basically the reason security guards exist – tons of crime is stopped from ever happening simply by the criminal knowing that there’s someone there watching.

          4. . . . don’t you at least follow him long enough to make sure he’s not breaking into someone’s house/apartment or going to harass people?

            Sure. Follow him. Let him know he’s on your radar. But we’re not dogs. We don’t chase people just because they’ve run.

      3. What does “need to speak to” mean? Cops have no right to do anything to someone who runs, unless they have some legal reason to interfere. That said, this article is woefully short on extremely relevant information, such as what was the alleged justification for tackling and restraining this guy, and also for placing him under arrest? Since that information should be readily available, it suggests that the author is slanting the information on purpose. If the author is not purposefully holding back this information, this is journalistic malpractice.

        1. What does “need to speak to” mean? Cops have no right to do anything to someone who runs, unless they have some legal reason to interfere.

          Police have the power to detain and question people, even people who haven’t committed crimes.

          In this case, the person was a suspect in loitering, trespassing, and possibly other misdemeanors.

          1. Well, the question is whether they should have that power. Obviously they do now.
            Loitering and trespassing are up to the property owner to complain about, not some random passer by. There was no complaint of trespassing as far as I can see from the story at least.

            1. You’re mixing progressive and libertarian world views; that’s not a valid way of reasoning.

              In a libertarian world, property owners would form local owners associations, hire local security, and then delegate the authority to make trespassing complaints based on that; individuals entering the property of that association would have to comply with its rules, including giving up liability for enforcement action against them.

              The world we have functions very similarly, except that we call the “owner’s association” “local government”, allow even non-owners to vote, and give it fewer powers to exclude people.

              The society you imagine, where only individual property owners can act and are prohibited from acting collectively in any way does not exist, and it is certainly in no way libertarian.

          2. They only have the power to detain *while investigating a crime*. Terry Stop. Its not a blanket power to stop and question. There was no crime being investigated here.

            1. You think trespassing and loitering are not crimes?

          3. Yes, “Police have the power…” to do whatever they want, thanks to a majority who value safety, public body guards, over reason, rights.
            But when the police don’t protect, instead violate, murder, then they want justice. Too late. A coercive political system is unjust. In other countries it’s called “tyranny”. In “the land of the free” it’s called corrupt politics, i.e., politics as usual.

            1. Yes, “Police have the power…” to do whatever they want, thanks to a majority who value safety, public body guards, over reason, rights.

              I pay massive amounts of taxes. I expect that, in return, police keep people who misbehave or bother me off my property and out of my neighborhood. I don’t see whose rights you think that violates.

              In a libertarian society, there would be more restrictions on freedom of movement, not fewer.

      4. Unless they are actually under arrest or suspected of a violent crime… yes. I can run away from the cops if i like, or anyone else.

        1. You’re absolutely right: running away from the police is not illegal. At the same time, police can legally shoot people who run away from them for may reasons. That is, both you and police can act legally, and you still end up dead.

          There are lots of things that are legal for you to do that simply are not a good idea. One of them is to run away from police when they tell you to stop.

        2. I’m sure the cops would tell you that he was “resisting arrest” – and we let them get away with using this even when there was no reason for an arrest befpre he “resisted”.

    2. I will wait for the autopsy but the asphalt here in Phoenix can bake exposed skin at this time of year. There also isn’t always access to a grassy patch for police officers to hold their perps on.

      1. Although in this case, they took him in the car, drove him into the shade, and poured water on his head.

    3. One thing to do at a federal level – fund MRIs and some standard forensic testing for everyone shot by police.

      Body cams, data storage, and public access to the video too.

      1. Cops should absolutely be forced to record everything that happens. If the camera mysteriously “breaks” during an altercation, the cop’s testimony is disallowed and the defendant’s testimony is considered the truth of the matter.

    4. Who the fuck relies on the police? Who are these idiots? Woodchip every single one of them.

  5. Oh SQRLSY we hardly knew ye

  6. In that entire article, I didn’t read of a cause of death for Mr. Lopez. A broken arm didn’t kill him. Eating even Phoenix summer blacktop for six minutes wouldn’t kill him. (Though I’d expect burns.) Being a paranoid schizophrenic didn’t kill him. So what did, such that he croaks “later that day at a nearby hospital”?

    Dehydration? Coupled with the after-effects of whatever shit he was on that made him want to duke it out with the cops? That might’ve, and would have been helpful to have included in this article.

    What would you like the cops to have done differently here, Binion?

    1. I can’t even speculate on how the cops caused this death. He might have had a brain anueyrism triggered by the stress of being arrested. Is that the fault of the cops?

      1. The cops take someone into custody, then they are responsible for that person’s safety. Fault or no, the cops should be accountable for every death in custody.

        1. Well, sure. But it doesn’t really answer the question about what the cops should have done differently.

          And there’s a lot of people who will say, “Well they shouldnt’ have done THIS” and will give you tons of examples about what they shouldn’t do, but they don’t provide a reasonable policy of what actions they SHOULD take based on specific situations.

          Maybe this guy didn’t need to be chased down and tackled. But I don’t know what rules to make to determine whether it’s worth chasing down a fleeing suspect.

          1. How about, if no one accused him of committing a crime, don’t bother. How about if cops do tackle a person, don’t intentionally kill that person, even if there has been an accusation, and don’t unintentionally kill a person because cops wanted to torture him.

          2. How bout no cops for psych issues?
            Duh.

        2. Well that’s just dumb.

          Cops aren’t God, and can’t prevent all deaths.

          They’re responsible for behaving responsibly, not preventing all death.

          1. So holding a guy on the asphalt and saying “You’re fine” is behaving responsibly?

        3. Personal accountability only for cops.

      2. “I can’t even speculate on how the cops caused this death.”
        Really? That’s just impossible for you? Well, no wonder you post such superficial thoughts.

    2. He died of COVID-19, of course.
      $13,000.00 extra dollars for the hospital.

    3. What did kill him? Oh, cops.

  7. Just the week on the Reason roundtable, they found it problematic that local stories were being nationalized. Then we get this from Binion where I can’t figure out what the angle is.

    1. Local stories that make Democrats look bad being made into national stories are the problem. Reason is very pox on both houses and nonpartisan like that.

      1. “Both sides!”

  8. I think Billy is trying to glom onto the Floyd, Blake stories with this me-too article.

    1. I guess we’ll find out for sure when the tox report comes back positive and/or the restraining order surfaces.

  9. Somebody acting crazy should have gotten a call to the mental health paramedics instead of the cops. Too bad we don’t have such a thing and instead have to rely on the cops whose mindset is “comply or die”. If the guy takes off running, well, he ain’t hanging around acting crazy any more is he? What’s the problem? This is where the cops need to drop the “law enforcement” mindset and adopt the “peace officer” mindset – as long as the guy isn’t bothering anybody any more, your job is done. And blame the lawmakers all you want for passing bullshit laws, cops still have discretion on the enforcement of the law. Look at Eric Gardner – bullshit law, fucking pigs enforcing the bullshit laws.

    1. the cops need to drop the “law enforcement” mindset and adopt the “peace officer” mindset

      ^ A thousand times this.

    2. Agreed. The guy that Phoenix PD murdered in May was really egregious. They show to a noise complaint with guns drawn. Guys answers the door with his gun drawn, but lowered and they shoot him in the back. A fucking noise complaint!!! Why would guns be drawn for a fucking noise complaint? And when does holding a gun while answering the door to YOUR fucking home give cops permission to execute you?

      1. All cops should be unarmed. If you need armed men with guns to come deal with a live violent situation, they should have a team on call for that. Patrol cops and beat cops should not have guns.

    3. Jerryskids gets it for once.

  10. Lopez ran, throwing a drink over his shoulder that the PPD alleges he stole from the convenience store, though that didn’t factor into his arrest as law enforcement wasn’t yet aware of that allegation.

    There’s no doubt this is the funniest website. Onion and Bee can’t top this.

    1. It’s not the first time the PPD has come under scrutiny.

      OMG!

  11. Wait…It is Binion writing the article. I’ll wait for the full and complete story to come out first before turning on the outrage.

    1. I’ve got some outrage to spare for this lying hack.

  12. Somebody should do something, like burn Phoenix to the ground.

    1. No good, it will simply re-emerge from its own ashes.

      1. THEN WE’LL BURN IT AGAIN!!

        1. That’s dark…

          (X-Men ref)

    2. The sun tries that daily.

  13. I watched the police body cam footage already released. The police did not leave him on the hot tarmac after managing to restrain a fighting, grunting, noncompliant suspect. I would suggest OD from the entire picture of events.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/phoenix-police-release-bodycam-video-man-who-died-after-being-n1237360

    1. Another condition I’ve encountered especially in people with mental health conditions is water intoxication. People have an inappropriate thirst & symptoms include confusion, disorientation, nausea, and vomiting. This can cause swelling in the brain and become fatal. Dehydration easily could be his problem in the AZ heat.

      1. A lot of psychotropic Meds have severe dehydration as a side effect.

      2. ” Dehydration easily could be his problem in the AZ heat.”

        And the cops made Ramon throw his soda (first aid) away out of Ramon’s understandable fear based on his precognition. Bam! Book’em, Danno.

  14. When I saw the headline, I figured it must be Phoenix.

  15. “ Law enforcement certainly has a rightful place in society.”

    But police do not. Big difference.

  16. Calling the police to look into something isn’t “criminalization of small nuisances”.

    If the police were known for good behavior then no one would thing twice about them being called. It would just be a conversation most of the time — maybe even a friendly one. They’re known for treating people badly, either physically or using threats or milking money out of us with citations.

    1. And if there wasn’t a war on drugs, we’d have a ton fewer issues like this.

      Let’s assume this guy was high on something. He runs from the cops because he’s going to get busted for meth or whatever. But if there wasn’t a war on drugs, perhaps he talks to the cops. “I’m sorry, I’m so messed up on something, didn’t want to bother anyone.”

      The officer then asks if he drove there, then asks how he’s getting home. There’s less conflict. Maybe he gets busted for a DWI, but the officer knows the man is on some substance so if he starts looking unhealthy, the officer understands exactly why.

      1. Do cops bust a lot of people for being high?

        My impression was that drug busts were generally possession or sale, not use.

        Seems to be the case:
        https://drugwarfacts.org/chapter/crime_arrests#arrests
        1. Total Annual Drug Arrests In The United States By Offense Type
        2018: Of the estimated 1,654,282 drug law violations in the US in 2018, 86.4% (1,429,300) were for possession of a controlled substance. Only 13.6% (224,982) were for sale or manufacture of a drug.

        Though I guess there’s a good chance that someone who is high is carrying too.

        1. Yeah, but many people who are high are also holding, so they don’t want to get frisked, y’know?

          1. Maybe he did want to be frisked…he was grabbing his junk according to the 911 caller.

    2. Yeah, which is why police reform (as well as criminal law reform) is the issue that should be under discussion. Even if they acted lawfully and by the book here, this is still an undesirable outcome. Someone died who likely didn’t have to (though it’s possible he would have died of an OD or stroke or something anyway).
      Too bad all the BLM commie shits ruined a great opportunity to actually dig into these issues.

  17. So this is a global climate warming change story?
    Because it has no mention of a valid reason for the death, so there is no “bad cop” angle here.
    Maybe Phoenix should outlaw blacktop?
    How about a reverse curfew? Nobody outside in the daytime, and only outside at night if the temp is under 85?
    How about Reason writing stories about libertarian stuff?
    Who is John Galt?

    1. Maybe Phoenix should outlaw blacktop?

      Racist.

      1. Yeah, so?
        Like “wolf!”, racist has no meaning anymore.
        It just describes someone who disagrees with a rabid socialist.

        1. Damnit. Poe’s law. I thought it was obvious enough without the 😉 at the end, but maybe not.

    2. at night if the temp is under 85?

      That would be only three months of the year.

      1. But if it saves one child – – – – – –

  18. Conclusions about whether the actions of the officers are consistent with department policy and the law will not be made until all facts are known and an internal investigation is complete…

    Department policy, sure, but the law? Where does that factor into police conduct?

  19. Hmm, he acted like a complete retard and fought the Police while high. I wonder what went wrong? It’s okay, he’s a white latino……that is the current narrative, right? Missed person of color by that much (holding fingers 1/8 of an inch apart)

  20. In related news, a gun was used in a crime somewhere today. How shall we change society so that never happens again?

    I’m not sure every anecdote necessarily means that society needs to be changed, and I’m not sure everyone wants their personal tragedies used this way.

    I hope the victim’s family members and loved ones seek restitution and a punitive settlement. This was an avoidable tragedy. There should be consequences.

    1. This was an avoidable tragedy.

      Based on what?

      1. “Officers handcuffed him and placed him in leg restraints after he was no longer moving . . . . After leaving Lopez on the asphalt for a few minutes, officers carried his body into a police vehicle, at which point they realized he was unresponsive. They then dragged his body back out and placed him on the ground.”

        Did they leave him to fry after he was subdued and shackled . . . um . . . twice?

        Regardless of whether anything was illegal, seems like a few things might have been done differently. Maybe I’m wrong.

      2. “You say there’s a guy acting weird? Uh. whatever lady”

        That’s how it could have been avoided.

  21. Democrat mayor and majority Democrat city council.

    Too bad that Democrats are apparently unable to control the police they hire.

    1. It has nothing to do with Democrats. Police unions have a long history of outright ignoring or fighting back against any reforms brought to them. Anytime someone tries to bring in reforms, they lobby the hell out of it to get it killed.

      1. I think you just provided more evidence for Jerry B.’s point.

      2. It has everything to do with Democrats. Unions, including the police, are fully in bed with progressive politicians, particularly the police union leaders in urban areas.
        Democrats have a political inability to correct bad police behavior, because it requires them to severe the crony ties they have to the unions.
        The worst crime and the worst enforcement issues are almost universally in deep blue areas that typically have had Dems in charge for decades.

  22. Not only over criminalization, only initiating force should be illegal, but the lack of accountability. If cops were appropriately punished for their wrong doing people could accept it but they get away with stuff like Kelley, Daniel and Breonna.

  23. Did the autopsy check for crabs or STDs to explain the crotch grabbing and scratching?

    Good reminder not to leave the house with ripped pants or do a Gene Simmons impersonation out in public.

    1. And Gene Simmons and Michael Jackson simultaneously is right out.

  24. “ our country’s criminalization of small nuisances, and the corresponding gut impulse to call the police”.

    So the police actions would be ok if you thought the original complaint was important enough.

    Fucked up thinking like that tells more about the source than the target.

    1. Um, yeah. If someone had seen him committing an actual crime, like assaulting something or breaking into a car, then the police actions would have been called for. Unless a crime is alleged to have taken place, they have no call to arrest anyone (and making someone stop and talk to you, or else, is an arrest).

      1. Detainment is not arrest.

        The problem here, of course, is we discharged the mentally ill who decided to camp outside the Circle K’s of the land. People don’t trust vagrants and nuts, so when they act suspicious, the police are called. The police are essentially domestic military at this point, and they use military-style tactics to detain people. This entire thing could have been avoided if the Phoenix cops had a brain cell between them. It is absurdly hot in Arizona; pinning someone to searing hot asphalt is not an acceptable way to detain someone, especially someone who is nonviolent.

        I don’t see any easy way to disentangle the police from the problem of vagrancy. Almost anyone who’s gassed up has probably had an encounter with these people. Sometimes they’re up to no good. Usually they’re just looking for a handout. They are also practically ubiquitous. It’s a wonder more of them don’t get killed by knucklehead cops.

  25. Even if the guy hadn’t died, the police holding him down on asphalt as hot as it was that day could easily cause several and very severe burns. Maybe even outright 2nd-3rd degree.

  26. Facebook has officially labeled Kyle Rittenhouse a “mass murderer.” Confirms they are censoring any posts to the contrary, including evidence showing his actions were self-dense.
    http://twitter.com/MarkDice/status/1301319541360795648?s=19

    Yay section 230

    1. You could argue that his actions were self-dense, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t also self-defense.

    2. mass = 2
      ClownWorld.

      1. Gotta remember all those highschoolers they dug up to interview who said he was a “school shooter.” And I can’t think of any more credible source.

        This guy is totally a school shooter. The Portland shooter is just a disaffected victim of Trump’s hateful rhetoric.

    3. Can’t he sue them for defamation then? Murder means an unlawful killing. Kyle’s almost certainly going to be found not guilty of that crime based on self-defense. If Facebook didn’t put the alleged in from of that mass murder designation it seems he should be able to sue them based upon their what they personally have said (theoretically section 230 is only supposed to apply to what other people say not the entity itself).

      1. I alerted Lin Wood.
        Whether he sees that or not, I’m sure he is aware of it and will take appropriate amounts of money

    4. Yeah, that’s fucked up. Even if it was illegal homicide, which I don’t think it was, killing three people in a fight is hardly a mass murder. They are trying to paint it as if he went on a shooting spree when there is zero evidence to support that. The police that were there could see that he wasn’t a crazed killer. But Facebook knows better.

      1. killing three people in a fight is hardly a mass murder

        Shot 3, killed 2. Or, as it’s known in Chicago, Tuesday (seriously, 2 killed, 11 shot that same day).

  27. OT: I just learned that Trump’s nickname for Biden is Joe Hidin’

    Please God, let there be a debate

    1. I saw that, and it made me smile. That’s the kind of nickname people say by accident to your face.

    2. Troll-In-Chief, ladies and gentlemen.

  28. From one of the articles: “autopsy results are still pending”

    Bottom line, this is yet another case of the media, in this case Reason, rushing to sensationalize a story before all the facts are in. Clearly the media is no closer to learning its lesson about that than it has ever been.

  29. Rittenhouse just represents the next step in this escalation.

    White guys with guns show up to black rioter protests.

    Words are exchanged, blacks attack and are killed in “self defence”.

    It will either stop there or escalate to armed skirmishes.

    THEN maybe the bleeding heart media will stop supporting these fake BLM protests and “authorities” will put a stop to them.

    1. “THEN maybe the bleeding heart media will stop supporting these fake BLM protests and “authorities” will put a stop to them.”

      Where have you been the last two decades?

      1. Skokie, Illinois is the default hangout, no?

    2. Where were the black guys attacking and shot by Rittenhouse?

    3. I’m pretty sure everyone involved was white.

      1. The one guy was clearly black in spirit since he was dropping niggas left and right earlier in the day. Well, either that or it demonstrates the complete and utter idiocy of people attempting to say that words are only useable by person of X race. By condoning it at all it was inevitable it would re-enter the general lexicon. Street trash is using it now so figure 15 years at most before everyone uses it.

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  32. is letting the dude walk home more proper punishment for loitering?

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  34. They literally fucking beat Kelly Thomas to death in broad daylight in front of a dozen witnesses while being recorded on dash and security cameras. Nobody gives a fuck unless it can serve as fodder for a chimpout.

    1. Those cops at least went to trial of course the bootlickers let them off.

  35. “The whole good cop/bad cop question can be disposed of much more decisively. We need not enumerate what proportion of cops appears to be good or listen to someone’s anecdote about his Uncle Charlie, an allegedly good cop. We need only consider the following: (1) a cop’s job is to enforce the laws, all of them; (2) many of the laws are manifestly unjust, and some are even cruel and wicked; (3) therefore every cop has agreed to act as an enforcer for laws that are manifestly unjust or even cruel and wicked. There are no good cops.” ~Robert Higgs

  36. What are the chances of the favor being returned? The possibilities strike me as curious.

  37. The caller said “ripped pants” but the cops heard “excited delirium”.

  38. There was obvious underlying conditions why this man was acting strange prior to and was the actual reason he died! If you idiots can’t get that then you have bigger problems then commenting on one-sided politically driven articles!

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  41. Look at this stupid nigger on the ground wearing whiteface. He thought he could disguise himself! Good things the cops saw through his weakass disguise.

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