Civil Society

Both Left and Right Should Stop Blithely Wishing for a New Civil War

All that accomplishes is encouraging us to view our fellow Americans as enemies, to see ourselves as members of warring tribes rather than citizens of a nation.

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"We are in a civil war," former U.S. attorney Joseph diGenova, a prominent conservative, said on a popular podcast last year. "So the suggestion that there's ever going to be civil discourse in this country for the foreseeable future is over….It's going to be total war."

The quotation, from a Washington Post article that calmly discussed renewed chatter about a previously taboo subject, sent chills up my spine even though the words clearly were hyperbolic. One could even view diGenova as prescient. He made those comments after the Mueller report was released and partisans were at each other's throats over impeachment.

Fifteen months later, the nation is emerging from two months of government-imposed COVID-19-related lockdowns—something that had sparked unrest as "reopen" protesters took to the streets to defy the (presumably) temporary suspension of our liberties.

The coronavirus disruptions now are yesterday's headlines as American cities literally are ablaze—sparked by outrage over a video showing the disturbing police-custody death of George Floyd. Even people like me, who have long complained about overly aggressive police tactics, have been horrified by the violence, looting and mayhem. The talk of civil war, serious or not, is more heated than ever.

Conservatives are blaming Antifa—those bands of fascistic-seeming "anti-fascists"—and liberals are blaming resurgent white supremacists. The president is inflaming passions rather than calming nerves with his tweets about shooting looters, which echo the comments from another perilous time in the nation's history.

I've even read Facebook comments, where ordinary people seemed resigned to a coming civil war—or at least to an endless cycle of anger and disruption. If ordinary people think this way, then surely there's no hope for the nation's future. Actually, I believe that conclusion to be wrong.

It's time to take a deep breath and consider our current divisions within some historical context. The nation has faced divided, troubling times throughout its history. Our founding revolution pitted Americans against their neighbors, with as many as a third of the American population backing the British crown. And the Civil War was no walk in the park.

"The Civil War's rate of death, its incidence in comparison with the size of the American population, was six times that of World War II," according to the National Park Service website. "A similar rate, about 2 percent, in the United States today would mean 6 million fatalities." That just looks at deaths—not at the incomprehensible number of injuries, widespread suffering and destruction.

We should never make light of what a Civil War would mean. Nor should we think that our current discord comes close to the level of division that had existed in our past. After the Civil War, the nation struggled through Reconstruction, decades of civil-rights battles because of the systemic denial of equal rights to a large portion of the citizenry and, of course, the 1960s-era protests over the Vietnam War.

These current events are the most disruptive times in many of our lifetimes, but they are nothing new—nor are they particularly awful. We are not headed toward a new civil war, so everyone—on the Left and Right—should stop using over-the-top rhetoric. It only encourages us to view our fellow Americans as enemies, to see ourselves as members of warring tribes rather than citizens of a nation, and desensitizes us to violence. The nation has real divisions, and singing Kumbaya won't heal them, but our society still functions remarkably well.

Civil wars take place when neither side sees any hope under the current arrangements. I see lots of hope. If you spend hours on social media, you might conclude otherwise. But try taking a break from reading the odd thoughts of your Aunt Agnes or arguing about politics with a "friend" you may never have even met in person. Do you see people at each other's throats when you head to the bank, store or office? Of course not.

We may not be united, but this remains a wealthy and generally peaceful nation. Even the latest conflicts can be resolved with reasonable solutions that are entirely attainable within our system. Before the riots, Americans seemed to agree on the need for police reforms. We don't need a revolution to, say, reform the union protections that keep bad officers on the force. Whatever one thinks of Trump, his administration will one day pass.

Instead of bloviating about civil wars, we need to talk about restoring civil society. Everyone has been quoting Martin Luther King Jr. these days, so I'll finish with one of my MLK favorites: "There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies." Better yet, let's stop thinking of our political opponents as enemies instead of as misguided fellow citizens.

This column was first published in the Orange County Register.

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  1. “Do you see people at each other’s throats when you head to the bank, store or office? Of course not.”

    They do in parts of Seattle. They have in New York, DC, LA, Minneapolis, etc. Maybe you missed the riots for all the protests?

      1. Part of me can’t help but think the Left is doing all of this out of desperation. Maybe all of those polls about the black community liking Trump are not such outliers and the Left is losing their shit because they know without 90% of the black vote they are totally screwed.

        1. That’s how I feel about it. At the same time I never thought they’d take this bullshit this far. On the plus side the wokesters are going to purge their way to a ballot apocalypse. The smartest move Trump could make right now is go to Tulsa on the 16th and link the race riots to now talk about healing and while he’s not going to kneel or wear a kenta cloth announce he’s proposing a federal holiday for the 16th.

          1. I had a front row seat for the riots in Washington D.C. I can tell you the crowd of protesters was about 50 50 black white but the people throwing shit and setting things on fire were all white. DC is still a majority black city. I don’t think the residents were very happy with white people showing up to burn shit down, which is what happened.

            At this point, I think pretty much everyone of any race hates woke white people. It is the one thing that brings America together.

            1. lots of videos of black people castigating white rioters and in a few cases physicaly stopping them and others where they know something is up where people are trying to hijack their cause.
              everyone hates woke whites

              1. >>everyone hates woke whites

                can i shirt this?

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              2. I would love to see more black store owners killing white progressive rioters. Especially ‘antifa’ trash.

            2. It’s not OK to be woke-white!

        2. A person of sound mind understands these are rioters and dumbasses who will eventually eat their own and each other because it’s what ‘faux-commies’ do they’re such unprincipled morons.

          I don’t worry too much about them. I worry about a) people who keep voting for crazy people like Durkan (who described the autonomous zone as ‘patriotic’) and other lunatic left-wing Democrats and b) the attack on our common heritage and values. Think of it. A career criminal killed at the hands of a cop is being used to erase history.

          Floyd is not a character who should be used as a reason to take down monuments. They’re talking about taking down Thomas Jefferson. What will they put in his place, one of Floyd? Maybe they can do one when he was taking drugs or shoving a gun in someone’s stomach? We’ve lost all sense or perspective and morality it seems.

          Welcome to the Idiocracy.

          This is nihilism at work in my view.

          1. The mob is on these people’s side they are taking care of their pet issues that have been on the slate for a while now namely colombus and the confederacy, I don’t see them using their political capital on the Founders yet.

          2. will eventually eat their own and each other because it’s what ‘faux-commies’ do
            History shows real commies do as well. It is something about authoritarian collectivism. You have to purge those who aren’t pure (or are a threat to your power).

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        3. Think back to February, John. Economy going gangbusters, March Madness about to start, the Democratic Party realizing it has to choose between the most inside of insiders or an unrepentant Communist. The only people worrying about some Chinese disease are paranoids like me. Trump looking like he’s going to actually win the popular vote, and cruise to a 150-200 EV win.

          Now look at things. Trillions of dollars up in smoke—along with chunks of many of our largest cities, tens of millions newly out of work, and various splinter groups thinking it’s 1968 all over again. Trump now down in some EV polls to a dementia case.

          You’re Goddamn right this was done out of desperation, and on purpose. I’m waiting for the next minority shitbag to get in a fight with the cops, lose, and start this all up again. Or a nice mass shooting; we haven’t had one of those in awhile.

          1. Don’t forget the climate Armageddon. With summer here, warmer weather will inspire some creative Earth on Fire messaging.

          2. You are being way too delusional about how ‘solid’ the good times were in Feb

            Natural disasters (pick a better phrase to describe a pandemic if you want) usually have the consequence of pulling a society together even if its a bit fractious before that. Precisely because it sticks an external ‘enemy’ right in the middle of everyone’s attention. Which forces everyone to decide whether that external threat is bigger/smaller than the self-created internal ones. IOW – most societies HAVE social cohesion even if they are arguing about everything like a particularly rancorous family Thanksgiving.

            We didn’t have social cohesion going into this. I even remember some post back then where I used that phrase – social cohesion and lack thereof – in connection with how we were going to deal with the virus. And that wasn’t at all a clean left-right division even if that is how it’s being painted by those in politics who paint everything in those divisions. When a society doesn’t have social cohesion going into that disaster timeframe, then the disaster ITSELF becomes merely another exercise in stoking the existing internal arguments. And that’s clearly what has happened. The virus itself is completely politicized. An external threat has been turned into a mere instrument of existing internal divisions.

            I can’t seriously imagine that you think the virus/pandemic itself was somehow purposeful – but who knows. That notion too seems to have caught on in some circles. Regardless, seems to me there is no possible external ‘natural disaster’ at this point that could ‘restore’ a social cohesion that no longer exists and hasn’t existed for a long time in the US.

            If an asteroid were spotted making its way to impact, that too would be politicized so we would be incapable of dealing with the thing itself. ‘These models all suck and they’re lying.’ ‘It’s just a pebble. It will burn up before impact’ ‘This is just a natural event and therefore coercion is wrong.’ ‘Well finally we have a solution to global warming’. etc

            I blame the entire Nam-era boomer generation which is still fighting the wars of its teens (now as retirees) and never grew up. But of course, that’s not really true even if it really is a bit true. Whatever the origin of that lost social cohesion though – it is lost. And has been lost for a long long time. For long enough that there’s no reason beyond blind hope to think it will return. And in the absence of anything that defines us as American, we will define American as everything that furthers the ends of our tribe.

            1. “I blame the entire Nam-era boomer generation which is still fighting the wars of its teens (now as retirees) and never grew up. But of course, that’s not really true even if it really is a bit true.”

              There was a book written in 1991 called “Generations: The History of America’s Future” . The author’s thesis is that there are 4 types of generations, and they repeat in sequence. The baby boomers are what the authors called an ‘Idealist’ generation, and they predicted that since neither side was willing to compromise, it would lead to a cycle of political hostility that would result in a national crisis sometime around the year 2020.

              Again, this book was published in 1991.

              1. I’ve heard of that book I think – by Strauss and Howe? I’ve read something similar (more superficial though) anchored around the four ‘Kondratieff waves’ – multi-generation-long cycles of credit creation/destruction, innovation/stasis, etc that repeat themselves once we forget the lessons our grandparents learned as children and then absorbed themselves but didn’t really pass on. I think those generations were called Hero (GI)/Artist (Silent)/Prophet (Boomer)/Nomad(X)

                Those can get too deterministic for my preference – prob a consequence of calling them waves/cycles – but I think there is something to that. That ‘generations’ are not simply a creation of advertisers who define a new 17-year ‘generation’ every time a cohort enters the advertisers preferred demographic of 17-35 year olds. That different ways of looking at the world at different stages of a cycle which create different challenges affects entire generational cohorts in similar ways. So generations truly do begin to differ from each other.

                Interesting that someone tried to figure out what those generations do and how they respond over time.

                1. Yep, Strauss and Howe were the authors. I still have the book somewhere and have thought about trying to dig it out and reread it.

            2. We certainly don’t have social cohesion, but it didn’t help that the pandemic was transparently not a serious threat. No matter how much hype it has received from the media and bureaucracy, lot’s of people have just never believed that it was a major threat. Instead, it acted as the biggest wedge issue yet. If this virus had been an obvious and significant threat to normal, healthy people (like maybe airborne ebola or something) then I think you would have seen us pull together sharply, at least until the disease was beaten.

              That’s the thing about partisanship. It turns everything into a wedge issue except that which is an existential threat to everyone.

              1. If this virus had been an obvious and significant threat to normal, healthy people (like maybe airborne ebola or something) then I think you would have seen us pull together sharply, at least until the disease was beaten.

                That’s where I completely disagree. And in fact I think you are making a tribal argument here – if this disease had looked more like what we in my tribe think it should look like, then we’d all be on the same side.

                Even if Covid19 had hit us like it has Ecuador so far bodies in the streets, morgues overflowing, left in trash bags piled up outside cemeteries, rotting at home for up to a week before people have to dispose of corpses on their own; we would have found a way to instead minimize it so it conforms to our existing political preferences

                That’s the same disease as here. Except that they were overwhelmed earlier (like Lombardy – also videos online of lines of military trucks carrying corpses out of hospitals and churches – or Wuhan(no video there afaik). The disease itself is irrelevant to us. The fatality count is irrelevant to us. If it killed everyone over 65 (44 million afaik), then you’ve apparently implicitly already minimized it. If instead that fatality rate was in a different demographic but the same number, then you or someone else in a different tribe would minimize that too. Domestic politics is all.

                It’s why I used the other example of an asteroid. We would FIND ways to argue about that rather than deal with it. We can no longer deal with the external.

                1. You.
                  Are.
                  Full.
                  Of.
                  Shit.
                  Fuck off and die, you cowardly piece of lefty shit.

            3. The pandemic wasn’t purposeful. But the lies and misinformation spread about it by the media, CDC, and who certainly appear to be.

              Remember were living in a world where a non-reviewed study using completely fake data was used to justify the cancelling of ALL studies by the WHO involving hydroxychloroquine. They literally dont care if it saves lives, theyll politic it for their benefit until someone calls them out.

            4. “….. define American…….”

              Seems totes passé to speak in terms of anything “American” anymore. Racist even.

              It’s the left carrying the water for globalism, as American exceptionalism is denied by a self loathing ideology. Thanks, bitches.

            5. Doom and gloom acting like the partisans run this country. The educated and wise of the US don’t believe in politics just like they don’t believe in religion.

              BLM isn’t black against white so I don’t what the problem is here chicken little. Maybe go back to work so you don’t have to dwell on it so much.

              1. The educated and wise of the US don’t believe in politics just like they don’t believe in religion.

                Hahaha. Presumably that’s why politics runs on shoestring budgets and a ranking of counties by income is not clogged at the top with DC/burbs and there are no lobbyists and other donor class representatives in DC. Oh wait. Those are all bullshit assertions.

                Just because the donor class plays the game of divide the tribes et impere does not mean they don’t ‘believe in politics’. It means they RUN the damn game. And your advice is nothing but – hey let them keep doing that cuz it’s working so well and it doesn’t matter. Useful idiot.

          3. Bernie is no “unrepentant communist” – he is a tool of the DNC to maintain power where they want it. Bernie marches to the beat of the democratic party and draws the “progressives” to himself and then throws them under the bus, just like his overlords want him to. Two election cycles in a row. Will not run as a third-party candidate, because he knows it would ensure a democratic defeat. He is a pussy’s pussy. Afraid he won’t get invited to any more DC cocktail parties if he messes up the status quo.

            I don’t support him at all, but I am saying he is not what he pretends to be…the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

            1. I don’t understand your complaint; That’s how you’d expect an unrepentant communist to act; Real world communists are con men, and communism is just their con. It’s the useful idiots who take the ideology seriously.

              Bernie knows that communism is all about establishing the dictatorship, and that at his age he’s now too old to aspire to being the dictator. But he can still be useful to the guys further up the food chain, and get the the resulting perks.

          4. More proof progressives have to go once and for all. If it takes a civil war to rid ourselves of their infestation, then that will be on them. They have every opportunity to leave America of their own free will.

        4. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the orders to destroy the economy started with Democratic governors. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Democratic mayors allowed and are still allowing chaos in some cities. This is the nuclear option for them. Create chaos, blame Trump. Progressives are desperate and out of ideas.

          1. The pisser is, Hattori: It’s working. If you believe the polls, and don’t think they’re deliberately slanted for any of several reasons: dishearten moderates from voting for a loser, to provide cover for what likely will be galactic levels of voting fraud, etc…

            1. The polls are manufactured to make the Pauline Kaels of the world think everyone else is going along with their bullshit.

              See also: Hillary Clinton capturing 90% of the vote.

            2. The polls are always slanted against the GOP and even moreso against Trump. If a poll says Trump has a 30% change of winning, it’s guaranteed to happen. He doesn’t need to start worrying until he gets below 10%.

              1. Hell, this coronavirus thing put the election right in his lap, and he is to fucking stupid to accept the gift. All he had to do was display even a modicum of competence, and not say a bunch of dumb shit, but that bar was WAY too high for him. The guy is a moron from about 8 different angles. His best hope is that the DNC is running their shittiest career loser and imbecile in a campaign that might qualify as elder abuse.

                1. “All he had to do was display even a modicum of competence,”

                  He has no way of getting the media to portray him as displaying competence, no matter how competent he is. So, he shuts down travel when everybody thinks it’s outrageous, and weeks later the complaints are that he didn’t shut it down sooner.

          2. A person who goes by the name of a sword gets to the point by slicing through the bull shit

            1. Technically, a swordsmith, but your point stands.

      2. Can she run for president?

    1. You also have the deeply ignorant iconoclasm. They have not just been defacing the Confederate statues, but statues to abolitionists and such because as use theses people have no idea what they are talking about.

      1. These people are too stupid to understand history. Like the abolitionist statue in Philadelphia vandalized. These people base their history off of Howard Zinn and other failures of historical books.

        1. I think these acts reveal that it isn’t about opposing slavery or the Confederacy. It’s about opposing old, white men.

          1. You mean – ALL white men.

    2. It’s not a Civil War if you’re destroying your own city. I hope Seattle burns to the ground. Portland too. No skin off my ass.

      1. But it will be taxes out of our pockets. The government always has money for stupidity.

        1. See it as an opportunity to buy some prime real estate cheap. Just rebuild over the charred corpses of those dirty hippie progs.

    3. We know which banks to frequent, it helps not to use them frequently. For us in north Seattle, nothing exists south of Denny..a no man’s land. We are constantly amazed while sharing a table at Costco that most people share the same principles….where are those who don’t.

  2. the Civil War was no walk in the park.

    There’s no sugarcoating it.

    1. Then why are there so many Civil War parks?

      1. We need to remove all civil war parks where the confederacy fought!

  3. “Do you see people at each other’s throats when you head to the bank, store or office? Of course not.”

    Because people are social distancing … for now.

    1. Except at the holy protests.

    2. “Do you see people at each other’s throats when you head to the bank, store or office? Of course not.”

      What are the chances some people at that store would be at others’ throats if they all discussed their political beliefs?

      100%

      1. Yea, social media is a passive aggressive way to get at each other’s throats. A lot of passive aggression these days, from corporate culture to politics. “He made me feel unsafe.”

        I think most people are neither hard-left or hard-right though but pretty moderate and its a shame because people are hating each other for a preference of a lesser of two evils, rather than for what they really believe in.

    3. “Do you see people at each other’s throats when you head to the bank, store or office? Of course not.”

      When’s the last time the author saw someone walking down the street in a ‘Make America Great Again’ hat?

  4. Reason’s favorite move is false equivalence between something horrible the left has done and the right’s response to it. The left is rioting and burning down the center of cities, demanding the entire white race apologize for being “white”, and trying to ruin the career and lives of anyone who not just disagrees with them but anyone who doesn’t affirmatively support them. But, the problem here is the “right” talking about civil war not the left giving the nation the choice of total submission or having one.

    1. ruin the career and lives of anyone who not just disagrees with them but anyone who doesn’t affirmatively support them.

      “Either you’re with us or you’re against us” seems a bit civil-warlike.

    2. Did you RTFA?

      Conservatives are blaming Antifa—those bands of fascistic-seeming “anti-fascists”—and liberals are blaming resurgent white supremacists.

      Seems like the article is talking about both sides. Rachel Madcow is on MSLSD, not Reason.

      1. Yes, the article is blaming both sides. That is why it is a “false equivalence”. As my post explains, both sides are not to blame here. You completely miss the point.

        1. From my vantage point both sides are claiming to be righteous, claiming to have done no wrong, and are openly advocating for violence on their ideological opponents. Or am I missing something?

          1. Yes, you are missing the left burning down cities and ruining the careers of anyone who disagrees with them and the right doing nothing like that. Did you miss all of that? Or do you just pretend it isn’t true hoping the left will come for you last?

            1. The right is defending the cops and belittling police reform. That’s fanning the flames as far as I’m concerned.

              1. So having a political opinion you don’t like is the same as burning down buildings and ruining people’s lives for saying the wrong thing? Is that your final answer? What the fuck happened to you?

                1. So having a political opinion you don’t like is the same as burning down buildings and ruining people’s lives for saying the wrong thing?

                  Obviously not. I’m saying that both sides view each other as the enemy, and have been doing so long before the lockdown and the riots. This has been brewing for a long time.

                  1. Both sides view the other as the enemy. One side is burning shit down and destroying people’s careers. The other side is watching this happen and is disagreeing. Who do you think is more justified in viewing the other as an enemy?

                    The two sides are not equivalent. The left is straight up evil. Now do you understand?

                    1. I’m not going to disagree with that. My point is that both sides feel they are on the side of righteousness. Do you think people are rioting because their lizard brain is saying “Let’s go to the peace rally and get laid”? (George Carlin reference) No, they believe they are doing the right thing. They’re fed up. I completely disagree with their ideology and their methods, but that doesn’t mean they don’t feel like they have the moral high ground. Try looking at this from other points of view, even if you don’t agree with those points of view.

                    2. You might try doing the same. It might then be obvious to you that one side (and only one side) is burning, looting, rioting, vandalizing, assaulting, etc. There is no moral high ground there.

                    3. I’ve got to get back to work.

                      Here’s a fun little ditty that I imagine most of you will hate. Saw them perform it live and it was AWESOME!

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR-Xo7PecP4

                    4. Moral certainty is always a sign of cultural inferiority. The more uncivilized the man, the surer he is that he knows precisely what is right and what is wrong. All human progress, even in morals, has been the work of men who have doubted the current moral values, not of men who have whooped them up and tried to enforce them. The truly civilized man is always skeptical and tolerant, in this field as in all others. His culture is based on “I am not too sure.”
                      ― H.L. Mencken

                      The Progs are cock-sure of themselves and thus justify violence. Libertarians and some conservatives acknowledge reasonable doubts, and thus refrain from violence. Obv which is superior.

                    5. ‘My point is that both sides feel they are on the side of righteousness’

                      When do they not? Isn’t that always true by default? And did you have an expectation to the contrary?

                  2. Yes, those pesky Jews who started trouble by viewing Nazis as the enemy….

                    1. How narrow-minded and partisan of them!

                2. Well, duh, yeah, one is Hate Speech and therefore violent, the other is Mostly peaceful

              2. The right is defending cops dealing with the rioters and looters destroying the city. There is noone I’ve seen on the right who is saying we don’t need police at the very least marginal reform and that George Floyd wasn’t murdered.

                1. What about everyone who goes around mocking and attacking anyone who supports reforming qualified immunity? That’s defending the cops as far as I’m concerned.

                  1. I haven’t really seen anybody I follow and read do that although I’m sure it’s happening.

                    1. It’s been going on on this forum. If you oppose QI then you’re leftist scum. Just ask Nardz, JesseAz, and others. I assume they’re getting their opinions from someone. I don’t give either credit for being original.

                    2. Show me where I’m mocking anybody Sarcasmic. I said it wasn’t able to be done at the Executive and had to happen at the USSC. I have also said it is smarter to work on actual police reforms like no knock. I have not mocked anybody except for you since you seem to jump on the bandwagon of the week.

                      I actually agree with modified QI reform and stated so in my posts the last 2 days. You are just a liar at this point.

                    3. Sarc, I just think the idea of getting rid of it is simply a false panacea that won’t help, and probably will hurt the cause of getting more professional police that are more restrained in their use of deadly force.

                    4. ” I said it wasn’t able to be done at the Executive and had to happen at the USSC.”

                      Which, as was repeatedly pointed out to you, is wrong. The President, acting with Congress (or Congress on its own if it can override a presidential veto), can pass a law eliminating or modifying qualified immunity. President Trump does not want to do so, making it extremely unlikely that it will happen.

                  2. What about everyone who goes around mocking and attacking anyone who supports reforming qualified immunity? That’s defending the cops as far as I’m concerned.

                    As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, while QI is a problem, it’s not the be-all/end-all problem.

                    1. And as many have said in response to that straw man, ending QI is a necessary step in the right direction, not a silver bullet.

                    2. And this is where you get mocked. QI will never be ended completely. Especially through legislative or executive means. Sorry you find someone pointing out this to you as being mocked.

                    3. And as many have said in response to that straw man, ending QI is a necessary step in the right direction, not a silver bullet.

                      It may not be necessary. Again, I’m not opposed to ending QI but there are many steps in the right direction that could be taken:

                      – Banning/busting up public unions
                      – Popularly shaming crooked officers both politically and culturally
                      – Forbidding public officers of the law from using deadly force across the board
                      – Forbidding constitutionally and guaranteed pensions, let alone multiple pensions
                      – etc. etc.

                      It’s no one else’s fault but your own that you can’t conceptualize more than one way to rein in police violence and the more you make the issue more one dimensional than it actually is, the dumber it makes you look.

                    4. It’s no one else’s fault but your own that you can’t conceptualize more than one way to rein in police violence and the more you make the issue more one dimensional than it actually is, the dumber it makes you look.

                      Um, yeah. That’s what I meant when I said it’s a step in the right direction and not a silver bullet. Try responding to what I said instead of the voices in your head.

                  3. “Reforming qualified immunity” is the exact right phrase, “ending” QI is not. Qualified immunity exists for a very good reason, it protects officials doing their jobs from lawsuits when the results of them doing their jobs turns out badly. It shouldn’t be a crime for a decision-maker to make poor decisions, or otherwise you’d have to indict the dumbass voters who elected either the dumbass decision-maker or the dumbass decision-makers who hired or appointed the dumbass.

                    The problem is that cops’ “qualified” immunity has been turned into absolute immunity, the sort of sovereign immunity of “the King can do no wrong”, or, as Nixon put it, “when the President does it, it means that it’s not illegal”. When the cops are committing actual crimes under color of law and the courts are granting them “qualified” immunity because they weren’t told specifically that this particular crime was a violation of somebody’s rights, well, what the hell is “qualified” about that sort of immunity?

                    Cops shouldn’t necessarily be liable for making bad decisions, but there’s a line on how bad the decision can be before it crosses into the criminal. If I get drunk and drive my car up onto the sidewalk and kill somebody, “Oops, I was drunk and I made a poor decision” ain’t gonna get me out of a long prison sentence and a civil lawsuit that’s going to take every penny I’ve got. Cops shouldn’t be held to a lower standard when it comes to violating the law, their training, their procedures manual and simple damn common sense.

                    1. “but there’s a line on how bad the decision can be before it crosses into the criminal.” — That line use to be ‘intent’.

                    2. And, IMO, QI is a bit of a foil in this regard. There are a dozen facets of police work that QI doesn’t touch that absolutely facilitates the ‘Kings men’ situation. There’s little/nothing in QI that guarantees and officer keeps their job for an infraction one way or the other but we repeatedly see officers breaking the law, even on accident, and keeping their jobs or, getting let go only to have their terminations overturned on appeal with the Union. QI reform or elimination *might* tamp down some of this, but it will absolutely pass the costs of any such reform on to taxpayers.

                    3. “The problem is that cops’ “qualified” immunity has been turned into absolute immunity, the sort of sovereign immunity of “the King can do no wrong”, or, as Nixon put it, “when the President does it, it means that it’s not illegal”. When the cops are committing actual crimes under color of law and the courts are granting them “qualified” immunity because they weren’t told specifically that this particular crime was a violation of somebody’s rights, well, what the hell is “qualified” about that sort of immunity?”

                      Yep.
                      Seems like a problem with judges and prosecutors.
                      Bitching about QI in and of itself doesn’t address that

                  4. I mock you and the love for QI because you’re an emotional train wreck and bigot, while QI is a fig leaf for real reform.
                    You’re here jacking off about suing cops, meanwhile Louisville actually bans no knocks.
                    It’s misdirection, and it’s stupid.

                  5. Qualified Immunity only applies to civil torts, and applies to all government employees. You have no idea what straws you are desperately grasping at. No one, and I mean no one, mocks reforming QI

              3. defending the cops and belittling police reform

                “That hate speech is *not* part of a National Conversation!”

              4. It is now day 4. Sarcasmic still doesn’t want to admit that Tim Scott is working on a police reform bill or that Rand Paul introduced one just yesterday.

                You are a piece of work Sarcasmic. Going both full Jeff and full DoL. You’ve had these things linked to you multiple times.

              5. John – “the left burning down cities and ruining the careers of anyone who disagrees with them”

                spasmic – “Oh yeah, well the right is defending the cops and belittling police reform”

                Oh wow, you’re right, sarcasmic, that’s totally the same thing. Buring down a drycleaners, looting a corner store and lynching academics for insufficient pandering is exactly the same as being keen on your local cop.

                It’s when you babble shit like this that I realize you’re a sociopath…

                “That’s fanning the flames”
                and an anti-speech totalitarian.

                Go fuck yourself, monster.

              6. What’s funny is Trump was working on police reform RIGHT before the Floyd issue. You just might be a “misguided” fellow citizen.

              7. Who is lighting the actual flames?

            2. The people who committed acts of vandalism during the protests are individuals and they speak and act for themselves. Trump on the other hand is an elected representative of a political party so he speaks for everyone associated with that political party more or less. You fuckers elected a fucking psychopath to speak for you. That’s a huge difference here. The leader of your party is a degenerate.

              1. If only he was as psycho as you claim; most of the bullshit rioting would have been ended within the first couple of nights.

              2. “The people who committed acts of vandalism during the protests are individuals and they speak and act for themselves”

                Lmao. You obviously missed missed the identity politics of the movement. Also, considering the blm movement, antifa, and the occupiers all consider themselves somewhere between socialists and anarcho-communists…you should read what Marx, or any communist, has to say about the “individual”. Or read about what happens to “individuals” who speak against their leaders in socialist utopias like Venezuela and Cuba.

                But i know you won’t because you were ignorant of even the most basic history of the movements you’re too stupid to realize you should not support.

          2. Didn’t you run out of straw yesterday Sarcasmic? You’ve honestly gone full Jeff lately.

          3. Yes, you’re missing all those “resurgent white supremicists” out rioting and burning down cities and demanding allegiance.

            Come to think of it, I haven’t seen any of that either. I’m sure it will happen any day now, and we are just preemptively “both siding” for now. Makes sense I guess.

            Haha. What a doosh.

        2. The article blames both sides because domestic right-wing terrorism was just getting started with Tim McVeigh and now the Dylan Roof copycats account for the vast majority of terrorist acts in this country today.

          When is the Boogaloo, John? That is YOUR sides word for this civil war.

          Now go take your Droxy goddammit.

          1. Tim McVeigh was a leftist who hated American intervention abroad. It was also 25 fucking years ago you dipshit. Roof was an anarchist.

            The vast majority of political violence in fact nearly all of the political violence today is from the Left. It is a collection of criminal losers just like you who surf porn in their mother’s basement then go out to burn down black neighborhoods in the name of racial justice.

            So why don’t you go fuck yourself shreek and stop lying.

            1. Fucking idiot you are. McVeigh attacked a federal building in revenge of Waco and the Clinton DOJ attempt to confiscate Branch Davidian guns. And Roof is just your typical Trumptard racist.

              You fucking Trump Trash resort to lies as a defense. I call out lies.

              1. So, being angry about Waco made him “right wing”? I guess since you are a sick fuck who enjoyed watching children burned to death you probably think that. But the reality of his views are what they are.

                And it was 25 years ago. Today left wing losers like you burn down black neighborhoods to protest rational justice. This is what black people actually think of losers like you

                https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2020/06/11/if-you-care-about-black-lives-stop-voting-for-fking-democrats-woman-goes-off-on-racist-white-liberals-blocking-the-street-for-black-lives-matter/

                Go surf some more child porn, you sick fuck. Why don’t you post some more links of that sick crap so rather than just make you change your screen name, reason finally calls the feds on your sick ass.

                1. You QAnon sickos falsely claim anyone who is not Trump Trash is a “deep state pedophile” operating from a pizza joint.

                  Slanderous lies is all the right has.

                  1. No, I just know you had to change your screen name because reason banned your old one after you posted instructions of how to access child porn

                  2. “You QAnon sickos”

                    That’s all you really have, isn’t it? A 4chan meme you can make strawmen out of.
                    It must be hard being a fifty-center with such weak material to work with.

                  3. Notice the hicklib pederast leaves out the Dayton shooter and softball shooter, because they’re fellow lefties.

              2. I call out lies

                The fuck you do, you lying sack of shit, or you’d never manage to post what you do.
                And if you’d done an ounce of learning instead of gobbling up propaganda you read at Salon, you would have known John was right.
                Tim McVeigh was a religion-hating, pedestrian leftist and the embodiment of ideologies that are now pushed by Antifa.

              3. Didn’t Dylan roof volunteer for Bernie sanders? If not him one of those creepy mass shooters was a democrat volunteer.

              4. If you think that there’s anything “typical” about roof you are just too retarded for words.

                Better hide under your bed, asshole, there might be a “typical” deplorable right behind you! Oh, my!

                Haha. What a doosh.

              5. Kiddie Raper is up to his usual bullshit.

          2. The radical left (is there any other kind these days?), including SBP, knows full well that there is no epidemic of right wing terrorism in America today, and that nearly without exception the politically motivated violence is perpetrated by the left. But they desperately need for it to be ‘both sides’, so they consistently tell this lie. Right out of the playbook. Even as left-wing protesters are literally burning, looting, destroying, and assaulting, across countless cities, with full support of democrat local, state, and federal officials and elected leaders.

          3. Cute. Still gonna invoke the “White Lone Wolf” boogeyman even as he plugs the butts of actual Communist insurrectionists threatening people with ARs and stop & frisk:

      2. Sarcasmic John has a point here the article they linked to in that was from the New York times in which it tries to blame white supremacists for the looting and discusses how antifa is a rightwing boogeyman.

        1. There is no evidence that the right did anything here. Meanwhile, Antifa said they were going to riot and loot and bragged about doing it afterwards. But somehow the author just can’t decide which side is right. The riots were just “bad luck” I guess.

          1. It would be nice if we got some insight or some reporter who was actually interested in finding out who these people are and why prominent politicians and stars are okay with bailing them out if they are indeed white supremacists.

        2. I didn’t follow the link. My bad.

        3. They’re spinning the narrative.

          The left obviously started all this. It’s how they roll.

          Then the second people – any people – start to mobilize and defend against the violence of the left it becomes (insert whatever term here).

          And then ‘both sides!’

          No. It’s the left. And only the left that start the fire.

          And notice how many, if not all, of these incidences and events happen in bastions of Democrat ‘leadership’.

          Imagine being so completely empty inside and unfulfilled to destroy communities and potentially your own life for….a career criminal and dirty cop.

          Yeh, yeh ‘it’s the symbolism’. Except the data and evidence doesn’t support there’s systemic racism or cops are hunting blacks down. Cops are too militarized, and have too much protection and so on but that’s something reform can deal with it.

          So it comes back down to what the frick is the end game here exactly?

          1. Then the second people – any people – start to mobilize and defend against the violence of the left it becomes (insert whatever term here).

            Leftists basically fight like women. They expect to commit violence with impunity, and then when you bother to defend yourself, shriek, “YOU CAN’T HIT A GIRL!”

          2. “what the frick is the end game here” — FREE/STOLEN stuff.. It’s all outlined in their demand list.

          3. “So it comes back down to what the frick is the end game here exactly?”

            Totalitarian leftism

        4. and discusses how antifa is a rightwing boogeyman.

          THAT 75 YEAR OLD MAN WHO ATTACKED THE POLICE IS PROOF ANTIFA EXISTS! THEY BUSTED HIS HAED TOO!

          1. The six blocks in Seattle that is being run by a warlord who is running an extortion racket must be white supremacists.

            Will child porn be legal in Chaz? Maybe it is the place for you.

            1. He should go to Chaz and find out. Then, when the feds finally roll in and crush it, maybe he’ll get caught in the crossfire.

            2. The extortion claims have not been verified and the police have stated that they have had no formal complaints of extortion yet.

          2. Weren’t you just squawking about QAnon?

            1. It humors me that The Dotard cites that 75 year old protester who got shoved down by the cops as his best example of “Antifa”. And you gullible Trump Trash parrot his lies like they were carved in stone by Moses.

              1. The hicklib cries out in pain when he strikes you.

              2. Yes; amazingly I’ll have to agree with you on this instance. “Armed” take-over of Seattle, Warlord leader, fires, vandalism, extortion might have very specific speckles of truth within the CHAZ group and probably more in other places.

                But the media and MOST of the politicians are painting a narrative with those words that doesn’t accurately describe the actual situation.

          3. The 75 year old man attempting to scan the radio freqs the police were using you mean? It’s pretty damn clear the result of the shove was not intended, but how exactly do you expect a cop to react when a protester starts trying to apparently interfere with their gear?

            1. I was surprised to see the video. It had been painted as some police aggression when really it was police reaction without any intent. That old man literally walked right up in their faces while being instructed to back away. After defying the police they pushed (not even that hard) him out of their way as they moved forward. It’s clearly obvious to any non-delusion person; that was in no way police aggression.

            2. Who gives a shit he was scanning police frequencies?

          4. You mean the many 75 year olds the “non-existent” AntiFa has beaten bloody over the last four years for wearing Trump hats, fuckhead?

          5. Watch the video closely. Old man queertard was clearly trying to scan their coms with his phone.

            Also, there’s video of protestors earlier in the day ready to beat that old retards ass because he was creeping people out and when they asked why he was there he said “for fun” which prompted the protestors to start threatening him because “they just got done crying over a dead man, were not here for fun”.

            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YZLLPKxOHLI

      3. You really didn’t even read the comment you responded to did you sarcasmic. The comment was directly talking about false equivalence and both sideism.

      4. Right, the article blames both sides. But the riots are driven by leftists to blaming both sides is not appropriate.

    3. A real, actual clash is inevitable now due to the ability to ruin people’s lives over social media even if you never met them. Eventually, they’re going to destroy the wrong person, leave them with nothing else to lose, and that will be it.

      The most telling development is that you aren’t allowed to remain neutral or even mildly supportive. You absolutely MUST join The Movement or face ruin. And this attitude now has corporate backing, so libertarians will need to abandon this autistic pretense that businesses are always good. They’re now aligned with those who would, literally, put you on your knees.

      Most notably, and we’re going to have to be prepared, when the shit kicks off, that it will be those whom we considered our closest friends and family who will sell us out. During the Civil War, families went to war against one another. They killed one another and did it willingly. It will be the same here. If you have any white liberals in your life whom you’re close to, I’d advise distancing yourselves from them ASAP, because they’ll be the ones to give you up to the Stasi. Close all your social media accounts and make sure your online presence is as minimal as possible, and if you’re in a city, get out to a rural area as soon as you can.

      1. I am more optimistic than that. I don’t think the people whose lives are going to be destroyed are people like you and me. It is going to be the liberals who are going to suffer at these people’s hands. No amount of prostrating yourself will save you from them. And they are bullies. So, they won’t go after anyone who stands up to them. They will go after liberals who will try and placate them. And the more people they destroy the further left they will move to find enemies. I don’t think there will be a civil war. I think the left is going to just destroy itself in an orgy of self denunciation. Eventually so many people will be canceled that being canceled will no longer mean anything.

        1. I so much pray that what you say is true.
          The leftists destroy themselves.
          Because I see a civil war coming if they bring these riots to the rest of America.
          I won’t let them burn down my neighborhood.
          That’s where I draw the line.

      2. I think this will eat itself far more than you think. Although they did just fuck over the working alternative to the large corporations where this thought has taken root by annihilating small business’s with the lockdown.

    4. One side shows up to protest, armed to the teeth, then does so peacefully and leaves the place cleaner than it was before.

      The other side smashes, burns and loots.

      And Greenhut wants to discuss the rhetoric being used by both sides.

      Go fuck yourself Greenhut, you closeted crypto Marxist.

      1. The fucking looters don’t have a political motive, you moron. They are just opportunistic thieves.

        1. There after some white loser like you broke the window and set the building on fire.

        2. The fucking looters are Soros’s mercenaries, Antifa and BLM, and looting is their remuneration.
          For warlords throughout history terrorizing the plebs is part of every power play.

          1. SOROS! DRINK!

            JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!

            BENGHAZI!!!!!!! PIZZAGATE!!!! ANTIFA!!!!! JADE HELM!!!!

            1. REEEE RUSSIAN HACKERZ, PROUD BOYS, ICE CONCENTRATION CAMPS, MOOSLEM BANS, SECRET FASCISY ARMIES, WHITE LONE WOLVES

            2. “BENGHAZI!!!!!!! PIZZAGATE!!!! ANTIFA!!!!! JADE HELM!!!!

              Wow, are you really trying to claim the Benghazi attacks, Jeffrey Epstein and Antifa aren’t real?
              Sorry, but even your Jacobin chums won’t deny them.

              Also, isn’t Jade Helm essentially the conspiracy your pals at Chaz and the Governor of Washington are pushing? You even linked a tweet this morning.

              Just like with your Russia conspiracy theories, you’re so fucking insane, Nuttplug.

        3. How many opportunistic thieves showed up at Tea Party or anti- lockdown rallies?

        4. There are video of people paying them to loot and directing them how. who is doing the paying? it ain’t Trump supporters

    5. One could even view diGenova as prescient.

      How the fuck could this be prescient when he was speaking in year 3 of the #resist movement? This wasn’t suddenly some new idea in 2019, people started talking about how divided the country was going to be right before the 2016 election was even over. There were questions asking Trump (but oddly not Hillary) if he would accept the results of the election if he lost.

      Without doing a deep dive into social media, I’d guess that you’d see plenty of “Here comes the Civil War” tweets and Facebook back in November/Decenber 2016.

      1. I’ve been hearing about the second civil war most of my life and I’m in my fifties, that stated those CHAZ clowns are coming pretty close to starting one. When will those behind the walls start demanding an end to the occupation of their property and start acting in defense if the “legal” authorities don’t act.

      2. heck, i remember it back in 2008.

    6. whataboutism…… refusing to acknowledge the shortcomings of your own team by trying to paint the exact same failings in the other side as worse…..

      the point the article is making is that our culture is hyping up and exaggerating everything they dislike about the other team, and they approach every conflict as if it were a literal battle. go ahead and tell yourself that you are marginally less bad, if that helps you sleep at night…… then grow a pair and admit your team is not exactly perfect. this constant “but they are worse” nonsense is the reason nobody is doing any real reflecting and making any positive changes.

      1. Totes
        Maoism on the march- no biggie

  5. The problem with living on social media is that you think that’s America. Most people don’t care about what the twitterati are on about at any given moment. Any new civil war will be fought by very few while the rest of the country carries right on past it.

    1. I have generally been in agreement with this sentiment. The Chinese Flu has caused me to doubt it. For the first time the Twatterati have managed to really affect my life. Thanks to them and the panic they have created, I am living in a dystopia where everyone wears masks and the basic human interactions that are common to every civilization in history or prohibited by law (unless it involves rioting and looting for ‘Social Justice’). So, I am not so sure we can all just carry on and ignore these lunatics anymore.

      1. Without passing judgment on the enforced lockdown, I really think that was more a result of the national news media being based out of New York City. What journalists there saw out there window is what they applied (as they always do) to the entire rest of the country. The panic that ensued found its roots right there.

        1. The national media is a plague on the Republic. Trump had it right; the are the enemies of the entire nation.

        2. well yes. But that’s also a huge problem and a main driver of the dumbass cultural wars we are having with the new redguard and people who insist on snuffing out the racists everywhere.

          1. The problem there is that the people who cave to those outrage enthusiasts are also ignorant of the fact that the vast majority of America is not on Twitter and therefore not keyed in to The Resistance.

            1. many may not be on twitter but the looting rioting and protesting is happening in many cities not just one city like LA or Ny or Detroit many of those were limited to locality we are seeing dissent all over the country. Even my little town has seen protesting. no riots because they would have been shot.

            2. Haha. Outrage enthusiasts. I’m using that one.

        3. Yes, but you may be downplaying it a tad because we feel that application all the way up here.

          Look. It’s pretty sobering when you have a friend of 44 years practically wanting to chew you up for not wearing a mask. I can sense it in his voice. He already called me a ‘denier and ‘grandma killer’. It’s sad and I do just skate around our conversations now especially since the last time we spoke he spewed the ‘rampant racism in America’ trope.

          There’s no way to bridge the widening ‘values gap’ it seems. And this is in Canada! Imagine in the USA!

          I find myself ‘social distancing’ alright these days.

          I’ve said before, if you’re on social media DO NOT engage if you have a family and something to lose. As RRP noted on top, corporations are NOT on your side. They will fire you on the spot.

          I’d just shut down social media accounts and just quietly let this pass hopefully reaching a resolution or some kind.

          There’s little else you can do. Arkham runs Gotham now.

          1. Yes, that’s what I’m saying. People watched cable news and saw that their local emergency facilities were about to become overwhelmed and that bodies were to be stacked like cord wood, because that’s what people were seeing journalists in the studio apparently experiencing.

            I honestly don’t know what urban centers were actually seeing or if mitigation efforts were actually successful. But I do know that in middle America health workers were being laid off as people chose or were forced to put off potentially life saving procedures.

            I personally don’t mind wearing the mask regardless of actual efficacy because it makes people feel better, and frankly I like the idea of normalizing the mask because the idea of everyone screwing with mass surveillance and facial recognition efforts gives me a woodrow.

          2. I see what you’re saying, but if we let this pass to whatever the resolution is, what kind of country are we going to have afterward? I wish I were as optimistic as John but there doesn’t seem to be much push-back to this stuff. Against all the data and facts available, the narrative is still “rrrrrRACISM!!!” and doesn’t seem to be slowing down. We have so much of this country now capitulating to the left-wing rage mob I just can’t imagine how we undo it. And the thought that truly terrifies me is what happens in November. This stuff is playing into Trumps hands. I’d still put money on him being re-elected, and if he is I’m scared the last two weeks are going to look like the warm-up round compared to what’s coming. I sure as Hell don’t want to see that, but can it be headed off withOUT surrendering to the aggressive proggie set?

        4. NYC the most provincial place in the USA.

        5. This… is a very good point.

          There’s a town in NJ that has had more COVID cases than my entire state.

    2. That would be nice.
      Except the left just finished destroying the small business sector and putting 40 million people out of work.
      Now the megacorps are flexing their Maoist muscles.
      They will make it impossible for anyone to live professionally and peacefully.

    3. Sounds like the best option, for most of us, is to quarantine the ideological retards. I suppose we can create separate isolation zones or throw them into one combined play area.

  6. I’m not wishing for a civil war, but I don’t see how we avoid it at this point. The left won’t admit rule by anybody else can be legitimate, they won’t permit anybody to opt out, and they’re now openly discussing tactics like Court packing when they next control Washington.

    Short of surrender by our side, that means civil war.

    1. While I’m certainly not in favor of a civil war, because I’ve seen how astoundingly atrocious they are, if there’s a civil war in this country between the left and the right it may well be the shortest one in history. Given that only one of the sides is actually armed.

      1. Yes maybe, perlchpr. But then again only one side has actually shown a propensity for violence. And the law seems to protect and in some cases support that violence. And it seems to punish heavily the self defense type of violence, or at least create significant uncertainty about the penalties for defending ones self in the manner you suggest. Short of a true open civil war, I predict the armed peaceful citizens will remain peaceful.

        1. If there were to be a civil war it will be multi sided and not just racially. So many are related to people fo color these days it will be hard to determine who to shoot and that will only divide us into smaller klans of warriors with the small towns essentially shutting their borders once one side or teh other has taken over a town. it will be a mess

        2. Short of a true open civil war, I predict the armed peaceful citizens will remain peaceful.

          I concur, but I was talking about an actual civil war.

    1. At least two people on that list lost their jobs and careers for the crime of saying “all lives matter”. But Greenhunt assures us that the problem is with both sides. Do people like Green hunt honestly think the left won’t destroy them at some point or do they think that sufficient groveling will save them?

      1. It is safe to say that the left has gone too far when there is a ‘both sides’ Reason article about the issue.

        1. Reason is refusing to take a real principled stance here.

          They still think these people are protestors.

        2. Lulz… then tears.

      1. The Scouts are so thoroughly AIDS-ridden now that taking his statue down would almost be an act of mercy.

  7. The best part about living in a republic is that states can try out different things, like New York putting elderly coronavirus patients in nursing homes and Florida keeping them isolated. Some things work and some turn out to be failures.
    Let Minneapolis or Seattle reduce their police forces to a small fraction. Let Seattle allow a nation state inside city limits. Maybe we will all see a new Utopia. If terrible things result, then we will have clear evidence of what not to try elsewhere.
    Of course, I don’t live in either city.

    1. Let Minneapolis or Seattle reduce their police forces to a small fraction. Let Seattle allow a nation state inside city limits.

      Let Texas secede.

      1. We already have. But we don’t brag about it. Much. 🙂

      2. Let Mexico have California back.

        1. only southern California. since northern cali was bought from Russia let us be who we are

    2. I agree with the sentiment. But sadly, as more and more power becomes concentrated in Washington, and the flow of information becomes concentrated in the hands of immature leftists using social media, it becomes more and more difficult to just let Seattle be Seattle. We now have politicians from the local to the national and CEOs of major corporations openly supporting (or at least condoning) mob rule. This cannot end well.

    3. Thats nice and all, but the left is totalitarian.
      They cannot tolerate the existence of other systems

  8. When a white supremacist gunman killed more than 20 people at an El Paso, Texas, Walmart on Saturday, he claimed a dubious honor for his cause: Right-wing terrorism is once again responsible for more deaths on U.S. soil (107) than jihadi terrorism (104) since 9/11, according to data collected by New America. (In fact, right-wing violence had been responsible for more deaths for most of this period, but jihadis had been responsible for more since the Pulse nightclub shooting of 2016.)

    Patrick Crusius’ attack itself was especially bloody, the most lethal right-wing attack since Timothy McVeigh’s bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995, which killed 168 people. But the El Paso killings were a continuation of a bloody series of attacks in recent years, including the Tree of Life synagogue shooting in Pittsburgh in 2018 and the 2015 attack on a historic black church in Charleston, South Carolina, which killed 11 and nine people, respectively. And such high-profile attacks are few compared with regular incidents of low-level harassment and violence against blacks, Jews, Muslims, and other minorities.

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/08/right-wing-terrorist-killings-government-focus-jihadis-islamic-radicalism.html

    1. The guy in Pittsburgh was a leftist anti Semite who hated Trump and considered him a “puppet of the Jews”

      https://www.post-gazette.com/news/crime-courts/2018/10/31/Robert-Bowers-accused-killer-political-Warroom-synagogue-pittsburgh-mass-shooting/stories/201810300154

      Every word you say is a fucking lie.

      1. He hated Trump because he let his Aryan daughter marry a Jew, you moronic GOP bootlicker.

    2. It always makes me laugh when you parse out the day over 3k were killed by terrorism.

      Also makes me laugh when you include minorities labeled as white supremacists in your death count.

    3. Well good on them. Can’t really have a master race then go around and let the Hajis have the Terrorism high score, now can we?

  9. We should never make light of what a Civil War would mean. Nor should we think that our current discord comes close to the level of division that had existed in our past.

    Gotta disagree here, some of us don’t take it lightly at all and understand that it’s better to die on your feet than live on your knees. As a good American once said, ““Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!”

    This conflict isn’t simply a left/right thing, it’s between collectivism and individualism. If you look at where the “moderate” Left is right now compared to where they were as little as 20 years ago and where the “moderate” Right is right now compared to where the “moderate” Left was 20 years ago, it should be obvious that Newsweek magazine was correct when they declared after Obama’s election that we’re all socialists now. Despite Hillary’s assertion that government is just the things we choose to do together, government is the things we’re forced to do together and Obama’s assertion that you didn’t build that reveals the left’s belief that all the things are done collectively. Collectivism is nothing more or less than the tyranny of the majority and the tyranny of the majority is slavery for the minority. Those of us who just want to be left alone are not going to be allowed to be left alone, even if you think you don’t care, you will be made to care.

    And if you understand that America was founded on the ideals of individualism, you might realize that it’s not going to be a second Civil War, it’s going to be a second American Revolution. Read the Declaration of Independence, do you really believe that the American royalty known as the political class thinks we’re all equal or that we have inherent rights rather than privileges granted by government or that government’s purpose is to defend our rights? Read the list of indictments against the King of England, don’t you think it’s a sick joke that today we could only hope to be as scantily oppressed as all that? I think the American colonists had much less to bitch about than we do, and they went to war over that shit.

    I’d say it’s long past time for a reckoning, but like the proverbial pot of frogs, the water has to get hot enough before the frogs notice what’s going on. I’d guess the frogs have started noticing when you have people openly marching around with hammer-and-sickle flags and there’s enough of them that they’ve gotten themselves elected to Congress in large enough numbers that they’re starting to drive the agenda. They have a “fundamental transformation” in mind for America, but a fundamental transformation simply means that America will no longer be America. I’m not ready to surrender our country yet and I’m hopeful there are a lot more people willing to fight to preserve it than there are the enemy who wish to destroy it. But you better wake the hell up and you better wake up fast.

    1. The Constitution was expressly designed to protect the rights of the individual against the majority, and minimize the harmful effects of faction largely by keeping government minimized. That ship sailed over the last hundred years or so, largely due to the sustained efforts of progressives.

      Greenhut can talk about the horrors of civil war, but if he really means to avoid it then he needs to tell us exactly what he is willing to give up in order to secure peace.

      1. Greenhut can talk about the horrors of civil war, but if he really means to avoid it then he needs to tell us exactly what he is willing to give up in order to secure peace.

        Yes. But Greenhunt’s plan is for you and I and other people to give up something to secure the peace. He thinks he can go on condemning both sides and remain above it. Like it usually is with his ilk, it is about the rest of us suffering for the greater good.

        1. He should read The Inferno.

          Dante reserved a place in hell for fencesitters.

          When, Florence was divided between Guelphs and Ghibellines even Dante picked a side.

          In this case the Guelphs.

          Something tells me if there was a statue of Dante they’d want to topple that too.

          It’s not about anything else BUT to erase history for its own sake. How anyone can conclude this is about justice is beyond me.

          1. “How anyone can conclude this is about justice is beyond me.”

            The past is never dead. It’s not even past. – William Faulkner.

            Tara ra boom decay! – James Joyce

            1. God
              June.12.2020 at 10:42 am

              You.
              Are.
              Full.
              Of.
              Shit.

              1. Sorry. Aimed at another bullshit shoveler.
                trueman,
                You.
                Are.
                Full.
                Of.
                Shit.

          2. Greenmhut should also do some reading on what happened in the border states during the Civil War. There was no middle ground. If you did not choose one, one was assigned for you. If he really thinks we are headed that way then the time for choosing is now.

            1. ‘Jesse James: The Last Rebel of the Civil War’ is a good place to start.

              And the atrocities weren’t confined to the Civil War. Rebels like Jesse James and his gang continued to murder and pillage for years. I was surprised to learn the viciousness of the conflict. The bushwackers were scalping and mutilating corpses all the way through, and by the end of the war, the Radical Republicans were no better.

        2. Yes, that was my point. Unless and until Greenhut actually puts some skin in the game – even if just going on record of what concessions he will abide – then he is doing nothing to abate the movement towards armed conflict.

    2. “I’m not ready to surrender our country yet and I’m hopeful there are a lot more people willing to fight to preserve it than there are the enemy who wish to destroy it. But you better wake the hell up and you better wake up fast.”

      I don’t think you know what you are facing. Not civil war, but unending economic turmoil, unending pandemic, unending civil strife. An individual, no matter how quickly he or she wakes up, is not going to be able to deal with these problems. My advice: have an escape plan. Get a passport and learn a foreign language. It’s a small start but should be easily doable for anyone.

      1. Not civil war, but unending economic turmoil, unending pandemic, unending civil strife.

        Point to the decade in American history that was free of these things.

        1. America hasn’t had the economic disruption its undergoing now since the great depression. That was almost 100 years ago. The last big health concern was AIDS. almost 40 years ago. For civil strife you have to go back to the 60s, more than 50 years ago. You really don’t need me to point this out to you, do you? I think you must have some other point you are trying to make.

          How is an individual to cope with the endless economic turmoil, endless pandemic and endless civil strife? Throw in endless bad weather, you might as well. The notion that this all comes down to the individual vs. the collective is ludicrous. The proof lies in the inability of Jerryskids or yourself to provide any solutions at all. Not even hints of solutions, except to ‘wake up.’

          1. Provide solutions? For who? Other people? Why do you think they should? Cuz “we’re all in this together”?

            Haha. No.

            1. ‘Wake up’ is not a solution. It won’t change a thing. My solution: Get out while the gettings good.

    3. These people are cultural maoists using race as a cudgel to get everything they’ve ever wanted. The people being used are useful idiots. I still lean closer to this burning itself out way quicker than people think than what you describe happening. But people my age have been almost uniformly brainwashed and are actively purging people from their lives friends and family for not bending the knee to the cause or having a conversation or disagreement about methods and frankly it’s kind of scary.

      1. If you are young and have some gumption, you can always emigrate. There are better ways to spend your life than fighting cultural maoists.

        1. Love it or leave it? Where have I heard that before?

          1. You can love it and leave it. Or just stay and be miserable like the rest of the schlubs posting here.

    4. Agreed. It’s like describing a rattlesnake that bites back at the buffalo that are trampling on it as a civil war. The buffalo don’t give a shit about the snake’s political veiws nor does the snake give a shit about the buffalo’s.

    5. I try to take some comfort in the fact that most Americans don’t care much about the Big Agenda from whatever ideological tribe claims the pulpit. I like the main point from Russell’s Renegade History: that what many of us relish as a free society for the masses has as much to do with those undisciplined, uncooperative masses as with the high-minded but rather elitist and prudish Founders. And despite all the shouting and posturing and outright propaganda, our renegade core still largely does not give a shit.

    6. Yes, Democrats are now Communists and Republicans are now Democrats. Overton Window has moved sharply to the left

    7. the cause and effect are backwards in what you see. the increased tribalism and animosity between the two sides has been building for decades. when the cold war ended, we lost that big ever present external conflict that would keep us talking to each other, even if we had divergent philosophies. having something else to fight let us not fight each other, and actually communicating with each other naturally tempered our views away from the extreme interpretations of our general philosophy. as the fight turned into a left versus right struggle, we stopped working together, we stopped having respectful conversations, we stopped seeing other points of view, we stopped having relationships with people who would temper our views while we tempered theirs. the tribalism and conflict is what has caused the extreme shift to the hard right and hard left. as the sides shift more, they see the conflict as more “crucial,” and the issue becomes self amplifying as they begin to hate each other even more.

      there is standing for your principles, and then there is abject hatred, exaggeration, and animosity. the later is what the article is talking about, and if we can learn the message, it would begin to help the first. if the two sides could begin to talk to each other as human beings and Americans first, understanding that even if we disagree with them their beliefs are held in good faith, then people will naturally begin to self moderate towards positions that are more workable and agreeable and away from the poisonous extremism.

      1. when the cold war ended, we lost that big ever present external conflict that would keep us talking to each other, even if we had divergent philosophies

        Blame Reagan, Thatcher, and Pope John Paul II.

      2. “there is standing for your principles”

        Come come, you don’t even have the stones to post under your real name. How do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

      3. Soooooo……… “both sides” then?

    8. Very well written!
      I agree with every word.

  10. “Instead of bloviating about civil wars, we need to talk about restoring civil society.”

    I have yet to hear anyone on the left take seriously the idea of a civil society. Their agenda is fundamentally about coercion, about forcing the other side to submit. The latest BLM violence is just the latest example, and part of a continued and accelerating escalation. Serious people do not want a civil war, but seems that one is upon us, whether we like it or not. And it appears now to be moving from cold to hot. Hopefully I am wrong.

    1. For the left- and a few on the right, but mostly the left- there IS no return to civil society. If you need evidence of that, looks at the riots. Rioting is NOT civil society. Look at the op eds about cutting off and bullying your insifficiently woke family and friends. Not just distancing yourself, not just quietly stepping away from the relationship, but announcing that you are rejecting them wholesale unless and until the adopt your own political ideals. You can’t return to civil society with people who think it’s righteous to call your 80 year old grandma a racist. There’s no returning to civil society with people who believe that, and who will burn down cities, dox you, get you fired from your job, destroy your business, and GLEEFULLY destroy your livelihood, and then cheer while they do it. There’s no negotiating and no compromise with that.

      Until that element is eliminated completely and the ideology that drives it is destroyed, there is no such thing as civil society for the rest of the people who just want to be left alone to live their lives in peace.

  11. The recent violent protests are indefensible, the outside agitator trash (mostly antifa) hijacked a good cause (holding the police responsible for murdering citizens, brazenly) and destroyed private property.

    However, lets not pretend the right’s clamoring for a civil war is totes a recent thing in response to antifa protestors. My entire fucking life I have been listening to confederate (losers) sympathizers who jerk off to generals (who lost) and a flag (representing the losing side). Wasn’t it enough we let you keep your statues of losers? Lots of countries dont even allow a rebellion to keep statues up of losing generals (also referred to as traitors).

    Almost every time anything happens that pisses them off, they start going on about how fucked the left is when the civil war 2.0 comes. You can see the rage boner they have wanting to use those shiny rifles and throw on their chest rigs. (news flash to them, about 75% of those guys couldnt run a mile in their gear, and the second they have to do any real physical task they would be out of breath with chest pain…they better hope the soy boys nicely line up for them to shoot at).

    What they are too dense to get, is the soy boys arent going to line up in the streets across from the mostly morbidly obese, out of shape rednecks with their AR15s. That’s not what 2.0 is likely to look like.

    If anything actually happens, itll be an overbearing govt military taking out a militia that resists (it wont be a war, sorry to bubba and his militia, they will just get erased). WACO on a bigger scale.

    1. Riddle me why all those militia men you’re panicking about have never seized a city, like what is going on in Seattle?

      LARPing in the woods isn’t really the same thing as Chaz.

    2. Wasn’t it enough we let you keep your statues of losers? Lots of countries dont even allow a rebellion to keep statues up of losing generals (also referred to as traitors).

      I know you haven’t really read the history other than what you got in high school, but there are several reasons for that happening.
      Bringing back the South into the Union required reconciliation. The Radical Republicans fucked that up with their vindictive policies and general cluelessness about what would be required to actually change the region. This resulted in a decade of civil strife and terrorism throughout the region until Hayes agreed to call off Reconstruction, which ultimately ended up making things worse in the long run.

      There’s a reason that Confederates and Union soldiers are buried side-by-side at Civil War battlefields, and if you don’t get that, then you’re an ignorant dipstick, to be honest. Try reading something about the period that wasn’t written in the last 30 years, and you might understand.

  12. Conservatives are blaming Antifa—those bands of fascistic-seeming “anti-fascists”

    There’s no “fascistic-seeming” about it.

    Yes, it is literally true what the members claim, that ANTIFA was formed to fight Nazis.

    In the name of Stalinist Communism.

    Crazy idea here, but maybe, just maybe, the ideologies, names, and symbols of 1930s German political organizations aren’t the best landfill to mine.

    1. Now see? This is a somewhat perceptive comment.

      As a true classic liberal I hate both the far left communist types and the far right fascist/Nazi types.

      A real libertarian would agree.

      1. Except where you actively slobber the cocks
        of the modern day incarnation of those same Stalinists, and try to gaslight everyone else that they don’t exist as they forcibly take over six city blocks.

  13. I don’t want a civil war or any violence.

    But I think we should seriously consider breaking the country apart peacefully, so that people can live in the kind of society they want. The federal government was never intended to handle a multicultural society of 330 million people, and it’s not up to the task.

    1. Wow, another reasonable comment. Unworkable but reasonable.

      As soon as “the right” isolated themselves they would want Social Security, Medicare, and other Big Gov programs they paid into for years paid for by “the left”. Republicans love Big Government but they just don’t think minorities should receive benefits.

      1. What a stupid and obvious deflection away from the obvious shortages in basic needs your AntiFa heroes are undergoing.

      2. Well, you obviously understand neither entitlement programs nor anybody to the right of AOC. And on top of that, you’re projecting your own racism onto others.

      3. There’s an easy solution for the social security issue – Give me back the money that I (and my employer) put into it, adjusted for inflation, and I’ll be on my way.

        1. I want mine in silver.

        2. You can’t get the money you paid back because it’s gone. What you paid was nothing more than a tax, a tax that was wasted on various useless government programs.

    2. Since Lincoln, we do not have a federal government.

      We have a national government. Wilson made it a national socialist government (property tax, Federal Reserve, and the sedition act) since WWI.

      The states and our constitution have been bulwarks against tyranny but Bush 2 built DHS and augmented the national police and that has dramatically increased pressure on the people.

      Our government is not designed to handle this and that is the point. Once we realize this, the socialists want us to create a new, communist government to better handle the problem. Trump threatens that. He represents a popular uprising against the statists.

      This is Wilson’s design and has been since 1912.

      IMO the proper thing is to reverse Lincoln and Wilson and restore the US Federal Constitution and abolish all amendments made since 1865. Let the states handle the multi-culturalism and let the feds handle China.

      1. So you want to repeal the 14th Amendment (with its guarantees of due process of law and equal protection in the States) and to repeal the voting-rights amendments? Please come up with a realistic solution.

    3. How’s that working in Hong Kong?

  14. Another lazy, ‘Both the other sides are bad, only libertarians are right’ blathering.

    Yeah, look that that group of “white supremacists” taking over a part of a major city, ANY city, and calling themselves autonomous. Which city is that?

    Look at the mob of “white supremacists” burning cities and beating people.

    Oh, I forgot; lazy writings require tired, limp tropes. Go on.

    1. It’s called pretending to be impartial.

    2. To be fair, many progressives, socialists, and Democrats are white supremacists at heart and in their policies.

      1. But they don’t even know it. They genuinely mistake their condescension for support.

        1. The soft bigotry of low expectations and paternalism.

      2. To be sure.

  15. There are a large number of people and politicians on the Left who are deeply intolerant of dissent. Have no reverence for freedom of speech or freedom of thought and conscience or equal treatment under law.
    Demand total adherence to their irrational and ever shifting moral standards. They are the ones on the offensive and you don’t avoid a civil war unless they are dissuaded from their course of action or disempowered from being able to accomplish it.

  16. I have a question — it seems curious that at least from the standpoint of politics, that our split is so “even” — a close to 50/50 Senate and the close presidential elections (at least the ones where Gore and H Clinton lost!)

    Does this even split have to do just with demographic and historical accident?

    1. It’s a consequence of politicians operating under winner takes all voting: they both attempt to get a majority, and unless they are up, they both end up around 50%

      It’s not representative of the diversity of political opinions, which are more unevenly distributed.

    2. It’s how our two party first-past-the-goalposts system works. Take any given issue, and the polling will most likely show a similar 50/50 split. There are exceptions to be sure, but overall the two parties have managed to split the table evenly between them.

      If Party A is for an issue, then Party B must naturally be against it! Any deviation is called a RINO or DINO or other sort of sellout.

      The parties will pretend that their two sides are diametric opposites, even if they are essentially the same. Nuances must be magnified. So that if the Democrats want a $15 minimum wage and the Republicans propose a $12 minimum wage instead, those two positions are heralded as exact opposites! A 5% spending increase is viewed as radical anarchism because the other side wants a 6% spending increase!

      The science of climate change itself is universally rejected by Republicans merely because of Al Gore, a Democrat. For a Republican to suggest that maybe we should think about the problem is to be cast into the outer darkness. Okay, I see I’ve not triggered half of you! That’s the problem, there can be no discussion on this issue!

      Now let’s take something from the other side. Democrats are opposed to GMOs, and organic food, and similar crunchy issues. Republicans pretty much don’t care. There are plenty of Democrats who do understand that GMOs aren’t bad and organic food is unsustainable, but they’re ignored by the howls over frankenfood. And even then the critically thinking Democrats still defend their scientifically illiterate brethren by saying, “well at least they aren’t those Republicans who still believe in creationism!”

      Look at COVID-19. The issue of how to deal with it has been split evenly between the parties. Look at any issue.

      You’re right, it’s not natural. But it’s the result of our artificial “there can only be two opposite viewpoints” system of governance.

      1. Haha. Yeah. Spending increases. When someone proposes an INCREASE in spending that is less than someone else wanted or less than the previous year, it’s a “draconian cut! Children will die!”

        Yeah, this shit ain’t gettin fixed.

      2. If Party A is for an issue, then Party B must naturally be against it! Any deviation is called a RINO or DINO or other sort of sellout.

        That’s not how it works at all. Rather, both parties pick from a large portfolio of potential issues. Those that they agree on, you never see in the debates. Among those that they disagree on, each party tries to pick a small portfolio of issues that they think gives them an advantage, resulting in a 50/50 split among voters. It’s actually a good system that traditionally forces both parties to remain quite centrist.

        The system has been undermined in recent decades by changes to the primary system and by the Internet, leading parties to choose their issues and candidates less rationally and with increasingly extreme positions.

    3. The split is even because when one side gets an advantage the other side moves toward it. Heffalumps adopt more socialist positions and Donkeys go for law n order when they see those issues are part of the reason they have been losing. The 2 can never get too far apart or too far from the ‘center’ of where the populace is.

  17. Political correctness is a whore of corporate America.

    1. I think you’ve got that backwards.

      1. I’ll ask Jeff Bezos.

  18. The left is going through a mass psychotic breakdown.
    They’ve reached the point of lashing out.
    They are totalitarian, and if they aren’t stopped they will one day come for you

    1. The right went through a mass psychotic breakdown over alcohol and drugs.
      They reached the point of lashing out to push their religion by force of the FBI.
      They are totalitarian and they already own you.

      1. Lol
        Totes dude
        Exact same as totalitarian communism that not only believes in but enforces thought crime
        Great call

      2. Prohibition was progressivism, along with eugenics and segregation.

        And internationally, some of the harshest anti drug regimes were socialist.

  19. This has been growing ever since the 2000 election. Not Gore’s fault, not Bush’s fault. That’s just went he the civility began to crumble in earnest. I think the recount started it.

    At the time I remarked how utterly bizarre it was a two party system would be so evenly divided fifty fifty on every single issue. But how else do you explain such an extremely close race when the two candidates were declared by everyone to be complete opposites? It was my thesis at the time that our system had transformed to an oppositional system, where the parties felt they had to take the diametrically opposite side of every issue. Minor nuances in stance were portrayed as if they were opposites. So that a 5% versus a 6% spending increase were seen opposites, one being the ultimate good and the the ultimate evil.

    This has only increased in the past twenty years. Every issue has been divided equally between the parties. With NO ROOM for third parties or viewpoints that differ from the official two. Pick ANY issue. Look at how the two parties have carved it up between them. Look at how any other viewpoint on the issue is ignored, mocked, or attacked.

    It’s not really 50/50. Because most people really do have a range of opinions. So it’s more like 30% Diehard Democrats versus 20% Unwavering Trumpists versus 50% everyone else. That 50% who don’t constantly tweet their political opinions or continually post cheap political memes on Facebook. The 50% that go to work each day to work, not to gossip about whatever Trump or Pelosi did the day before.

    The real Galt’s Gulch is coming, it will come when that 50% decides to not bother anymore. We saw the start of it in 2016 when Hillary lost the election despite having all of the demographics on her side, simply because not enough of that demographic bothered to show up and vote. Probably because she called them all deplorables. Only 56% of voters bothered to show up. Trump acting like he had a mandate is stupid because he got nowhere near a majority. Neither did Hillary. They split the results 25/25.

    1. true on many levels. i would add that the ferocity of the opposition between the two groups has actually shifted their positions in more radical directions. when they stopped talking to each other, stopped compromising, stopped having mutual respect…. they stopped thinking of workable solutions, and started going to more extreme philosophies fueled by the echo of their isolated bubbles.

      i hope we are close to that 50% showing up to say “enough,” and put forward a third option to force the major parties either into civility or extintion.

  20. So the ‘patriots’ on the left have seceded from the US and at the same time are tearing down Civil War monuments because secession was treason.

    Oh, pointing this out is ‘racist’…

    Just as with the last civil war. Both sides are wrong and the winner will be government.

  21. North vs South, Left vs Right.

    It only takes two opposing forces to divide.

    The question we should be asking is who is conquering?

    For the answer, follow the money.

    1. So that’s definitley George Soros.

  22. Conservatives are blaming Antifa—those bands of fascistic-seeming “anti-fascists”—and liberals are blaming resurgent white supremacists.

    One of these groups is closer to the truth than the other.

    1. Honestly, I have to wonder if BOTH groups are not infiltrated and controlled by the FBI at this point.

      Not directly, but through informants and pressure similar to how the FBI did cointelpro vs the BPP.

      1. I’m beginning to think the FBI is infiltrated by Antifa.

  23. “This has only increased in the past twenty years. Every issue has been divided equally between the parties. With NO ROOM for third parties or viewpoints that differ from the official two. Pick ANY issue. Look at how the two parties have carved it up between them. Look at how any other viewpoint on the issue is ignored, mocked, or attacked. ”

    I agree with the thrust of your comment but besides the political deadlock there’s been economic stagnation which is even more damaging to the national spirit. And, contrary to what you say, there’s been essentially bi-partisan consensus on economic issues. Both parties stress the importance of economic growth and rely on it to sort out our problems, both parties support quantitative easing, bailing out too big to fail businesses etc.

    In short, bi-partisan clinging to failing economic solutions is even more of a national problem than, say, the divide on the issue of abortion, gun control or any other cultural issue.

    1. That’s meant as a response to Brandybuck’s comment of 11:03. I pressed the wrong LEAVE A COMMENT button.

  24. I think what we need isn’t a civil war so much as a divorce.

    Our differences won’t be solved with dialogue and compromise. You cannot compromise with someone who insists your refusal to say “xie” is a form of violence. Accusing someone of racism ends the conversation. The majority of my friends are hard core SJWs, and they insist that disagreement is hate speech. They insist it is wrong to be friends with anyone who may have voted for Trump or thinks the virus might actually spread amongst protesters. They are seeking ideological purity – you can’t really work with that.

    So I say those who want this ideological purity separate off and have their big giant central planning government of experts. They imprison people for hate speech. The rest of us can go where reasonable minds are permitted to differ.

    I don’t see any other way out. I don’t think anyone is eager for civil war so much as accepting (with dread) that we have irreconcilable differences. And at this point, one side insists that disagreement with their views is violence. VIOLENCE.

    You can’t reason with crazy.

    1. You can’t reason with crazy.

      Well, you can…but it requires a type of response we’d like to avoid for the time being.

    2. Yeah, this article makes me wonder if Greenhut has ever actually met these people. No, there is no reasoning or compromising with them.

    3. I concur. In theory. Despite having already crossed the irreconcilable threshold, America’s differences seem to grow and become more caustic with each passing event (20XX election, forced economic shutdown, Floyd / BLM violence, etc.). I see no mechanism that would allow us to view ourselves as one nation. Unfortunately, there is also no mechanism that I am aware of to perform the divorce you describe.

      1. I know. My best idea for a start would be the Republic of Texas and the Republic of California. Then we’ll see how those go. Texas has a nice mix of urban and rural and red and blue. I think rational dialogue might be possible here.

        (Urban) Californians want single-payer, Green New Deals, etc. They have a large economy; let them try out that socialist utopia.

        Both states have natural resources and booming industries. Give it a year, and let other states decide which way to go.

        We could achieve something similar by dramatically reducing the size and scope of the federal government, but I fear that would not be possible without civil war. Federalism is our only hope.

  25. I’m going to speak for the silent majority of people and say that I hate every single person with a microphone or soap box right now.

    I hate the brainless progressives.
    I hate the pants-shitting conservatives.
    I hate the right…and I hate the left.
    I hate Antifa as well as the Proud Boys.
    I hate the pandering politicians (all of them).
    I hate the sanctimonious celebrities.
    I hate the Democrats…and the Republicans.
    I hate the tribalism masquerading as reason.
    I hate the media for sensationalizing every trivial thing.

    I could go on and on but I won’t. Instead I’m going to work, hang out with my family and friends, try to be a good person and treat everyone respectfully, do my best to ignore these externalities and hope for better times in our country.

    1. You can’t reason with crazy.

      Who?!!

    2. the Proud Boys.

      *cough* sorry, cut and paste fail above.

      I’ll try again.

      WHO?!!

    3. “I could go on and on but I won’t.”

      You should consider emigrating. In a new country, trying to adapt and survive, the gender neutral pronouns that bother you so much today won’t seem worth the worry. You’ll find you won’t bother with the media you hate so much, the political struggles will seem unimportant. It sounds like you could benefit from a change of scenery, and a new life facing new and more important issues.

      1. You.
        Are.
        Full.
        Of.
        Shit.

      2. Where did this poster say anything about “gender neutral pronouns”? What made you think he (I presume) had a problem with that? You just assume these things?

        Telling.

        1. Yous will not replace us!

          1. Haha. Ok then.

    4. “we hate everyone,” could make a good libertarian motto.

      1. Makes you useful

    5. You had better buy a gun and stock up on ammo, food and water.
      Because the Republicans are going to leave you alone.
      The Democrats, hijacked by Antifa mobs, are going to demand you kneel.
      And to give them your food.
      And if you resist, or even are not sufficiently woke, then you will be cancelled.

  26. All that accomplishes is encouraging us to view our fellow Americans as enemies,

    How should we think of people creating a Stasi-supporting informant network to fire people whose political beliefs are different than theirs? Of course they are enemies.

  27. I would rather water the Tree of Liberty than share one more day in a Republic where people like the abominable race pimp Kaepernick, or the communist revolutionary Red Cortez, or the disgusting moocher Bernie voters have any say in the government which imagines itself to have the authority to enforce laws over me.

    These people are working to destroy the greatest society that ever existed. Fuck them.

    If they would go in peace the inevitable and necessary Balkanization of our country could be had relatively cheaply. But these marxists want ever more power. They will use their absolute control of the permanent party government, media and entertainment, the education system, and both parties (yes both. Why do you think the Retaricans always lose?) to stamp out any love for liberty wherever they can find it.

    It is simply time to realize that there is no negotiation with these people. There can be no coexistence with them inside of a common legal structure. They must be expelled, separated from, or defeated. Leftism MUST be defeated.

    If there is a God, may he grant us war.

    1. Retardicans. Gawd this shithole needs an edit button.

    2. “These people are working to destroy the greatest society that ever existed. Fuck them.”

      That ship has sailed, comrade. Clinging to a system offering endless political, economic and civil turmoil is no way to move forward.

      1. “…Clinging to a system offering endless political, economic and civil turmoil is no way to move forward.”

        And this ‘moving forward’; what would it mean to someone who doesn’t shovel bullshit?

        1. Easy. Moving forward is going back to the days of building walls beautifully, taxing international trade and drinking bleach. But you already know that.

          1. Shoveling more bullshit, I see.
            No surprise; as expected from the bullshitter.

            1. Keep reading. I hope to surprise you one day.

              1. You.
                Are.
                Full.
                Of.
                Shit.

          2. Easy. Moving forward is going back to the days of building walls beautifully, taxing international trade and drinking bleach. But you already know that.

            Border enforcement, sound economic policy, and clean drinking water. You say that as if it’s a bad thing.

            1. That ship has sailed. Trump is but a weak shadow of the man he was only six months ago.

              1. That ship has sailed. Trump is but a weak shadow of the man he was only six months ago.

                Well, I’m glad you agree with the objectives (“border enforcement, sound economic policy, and clean drinking water”). And whatever Trump may be, he’s more likely to deliver on those than Biden, or at least not make things worse.

    3. It’s an abomination what’s going on. I agree.

      Tree of liberty indeed.

      And there’s a trend of capitulation at play here. If you dare speak out or offer an opinion straying from the narrative, you will be cancelled. Then you apologize and declare ‘I must do better’. Pow! They got you.

  28. Not sure if I want to check out and miss all the shooting or to hang in my dotage and profit from it. It’s too late now for an entry position but Sturm Ruger stock has made me an embarrassing amount of lucre over the last 15 years or so. When it settles near the upper $40s back up the wagon. When it peaks $70 take half off the table. You’ll be rewarded with a dividend whilst you wait and you can repeat this scenario two or three times every five years. Bring on the war.

    1. Do you adjust your buy/sell points up with inflation or has the trend been stable enough the last three times?

      1. Nope. I’ve used the same entry/exit points since 2013 or so. At the magic $70 range you dump half and pick up again at about $45 or so. By only selling half you continue to increase your position. I’ve only abandoned this range once, when adding shares would have put the position into an over allocation range. Should have sold some other position to allow more Ruger position but I didn’t and it cost me.

  29. I doubt the majority of leftists fully grasp what would be involved in actual fighting.

    1. “We need vegan meat, naturally flavored spring water, and guns. Please send them to our autonomous zone ASAP. Or else.”

  30. “…there’s no hope for the nation’s future.”

    Agreed.

  31. “…the latest conflicts can be resolved with reasonable solutions that are entirely attainable within our system.”

    You mean our current system that is dangerously close to full-blown fascism? Yes, they can resolve our conflicts—by forbidding dissent.

  32. What a load. I don’t see any right wingers clamoring for civil war. Look around. If there is a war, it will end very, very badly for the left.

    1. – “Folks keep talking about another Civil War. One side knows how to shoot and probably has a trillion rounds. The other side has safe spaces, crying closets and is confused about which bathroom to use. Now tell me, how do you think that’s going to end?” – Zarathrusta

      1. According to buttplug fat rednecks can’t run very far, so there’s that to consider.

        Wait, maybe not.

  33. I think we should have a discussion about splitting the country. It might be the easiest way in the long run.

    1. Balkanisation didn’t work well for Yugoslavia. Still, any excuse to accidentally bomb the Chinese embassy, all those consulates, trade missions and Confucius Institutes might make the effort worth while.

      1. Splitting the country worked very well for Yugosoavia. If it hadn’t been held together forcefully by Communists, they could have saved themselves a civil war.

        1. It worked especially well for Yugoslavian lingerie models.

          1. Objectively true. But that said, since the wars ended, the former Yugoslav Republics have done quite well for themselves.

            Only be separating have they been able to thrive, and there has even been a chance for healing in some small ways in the mean time.

          2. It worked especially well for Yugoslavian lingerie models.
            You.
            Are.
            Full.
            Of.
            Shit.

  34. “…Better yet, let’s stop thinking of our political opponents as enemies instead of as misguided fellow citizens.”

    Once they get their grabby mitts off my wallet while pointing a gun at me, why I’ll be more than happy to tolerate their illogical fantasies.
    Until then, fuck off, slavers.

    1. When was the last time you were more than happy?

      1. “When was the last time you were more than happy?”

        I’m quite cheerful when shitbags like you are far, far, away.

        1. You should lighten up. The empire is crumbling.

          1. You.
            Are.
            Full.
            Of.
            Shit.

          2. Yet, you want that crumbling empire to stay together, by any force necessary. Why is that?

            1. True, I want the empire to crumble. But I don’t think the dissolution of the US will solve any problems. It add to the instead.

  35. How are we supposed to “return to civil society” with radical leftist who don’t WANT to return to civil society? It’s directly in their dogma- don’t listen to other points of view, decry and bully family and friends who haven’t prostrated themselves, dox heretics, get people fired, destroy livelihoods, rewrite history and the english language, and when that doesn’t work, destroy property and burn city blocks to the ground.

    How are reasonable, normal people supposed to be civil with that? There’s no room for civil discourse there. There’s no room for compromise and discussion, especially when the media is complicit in it with bullshit articles like this and their refusal to call a riot a riot. When regular, normal people are cowering in their homes because of rampaging mobs of the Woke, there is no return to civility until the decidedly UNCIVIL left is put down.

    And it’s not BOTH SIDEZZZZZ. Regular, non-leftist people gave relegated the far-right crazies to the sidelines. They’re marginalized, mocked, and generally rejected from civilized society relegated to trolling the internet. Their unhinged bullshit isn’t welcome at our cocktail parties. The left is letting their crazies run the show.

    1. “Regular, non-leftist people gave relegated the far-right crazies to the sidelines. They’re marginalized, mocked, and generally rejected from civilized society relegated to trolling the internet.”

      At least they are regular. That’s more than the constipated leftists, asylum seekers, migrant workers, Jews, Blacks, anarchists, artists, journalists, environmentalists, women, children and all the rest of our enemies can say.

      1. Ugh, another moronic anti-Semitic liar. There are plenty of jewish conservatives, jewish liberals, jewish moderates, and so on. And same goes for blacks.

        1. “And same goes for blacks.”

          What? They are regular people? Give me a break!

          1. You.
            Are.
            Full.
            Of.
            Shit.

        2. Jewish voting is 71% Democrat, 24% Republican; blacks are upward of 90% Democrat. Statistically, both Jews and blacks vote overwhelmingly Democrat.

  36. this stuff started back with the cultural marxist movement that took over academia in the 60’s, the media in the 30s and created the “non profit” hustle starting in the 70’s. They constantly attacked traditional American values (non interventionism, small govt, no debt, and Americans of Euro Christian background). How many times are the forces of republic destruction originated from central or eastern europe socialism or communists. Securlarists, socialists and trouble makers. They pushed tribal politics and social engineering for decades and now they go what they wanted..hatred and narratives the media pushes that are not backed by factual evidence. And no tolerance for anyone questioning their attack on liberty. But the thing is the newly “woke” groups will turn on them as they start to ask why they are overrepresented in the media, academia, govt, and “non profits.” Can’t wait for that to happen..

    1. Jews will not replace us!

      1. You.
        Are.
        Full.
        Of.
        Shit.

      2. Straw man case there…majority of bolsheviks/socialists and hard core communists did come from Eastern and Central Europe and were mostly born Christians but defined themselves as atheists. My point being these folks (both from Jewish and Christian) backgrounds are white and hence the wokes they created will turn on them. And yes these folks have had been attacking American Institutions for decades from the safe world of academia and the media. When it comes to liberty versus communism I sincerely doubt any liberty supporting person gives a rats butt your professed religion.

    2. You’ve identified it right, titus

  37. Both Left and Right Should Stop Voting
    All that accomplishes is encouraging us to view our fellow Americans as enemies, to see ourselves as members of warring tribes rather than citizens of a nation.

    1. We ARE warring tribes, that’s what you’re missing. What’s happening is completely 100% natural – people have forgotten all about the ONE thing that rules human behavior, NATURE.

  38. Oh more violence will be coming, and it won’t matter what your views are, it is going to be dangerous. If I can make it happen, I hope to heaven to show my ass to this banana republic in 2022. Not likely, but it will not be for lack of trying. It is a 100% lost cause.

    I’d rather watch the empire crumble on TV, instead of out my window. Let the Trumptards and woketards kill each other while the bought and paid-for government remains public enemy number one ruining as many lives as they can at the behest of the Deep State cronies.

  39. What we’re seeing is a whole nation of people who cannot see the forest for the trees. Stop looking at the division, start looking at the dividers!!

  40. What happened to the Free State Project? Why don’t people just move to a state that best fits their political beliefs?

  41. We’re already in a cultural civil war / revolution. We’ve haven’t yet descended into race wars where factions attack each other in acts of sectarian violence, which goes to show the relative stability of America, where half the population is non white.

    Reason, which correctly condemns Che Guevara despite his support for civil rights in America, cannot seem to discern that blm is just another Marxist revolution. That it rose from a worthy cause or stood in opposition to oppression is moot point. The end result is a rather in in unlibertatian society.

    Cities are burning, expression being stifled, cops are killed and foundation of society is crumbled, but all reason does is myopically seek out individual acts of apparent police misconduct in a national crisis. What’s reason gonna say if blm guilts people into enacting free college, health care and race based policy? They think gun control died this month, which is cute. Btw – most blacks aren’t all they enamored with open borders.

  42. I’m not seeing the left wishing for civil war, this is coming entirely from the right.

    There are many on the right just pining for war as if would be a glorious celebration. They constantly threaten the left with all the guns they have.

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      1. Just shut up

        Tired of you fools clogging up these comment section

    2. Just shut up
      Tired of you fools clogging up these comment section

  43. As awful as a civil war would be, I have to wonder what the ultimate outcome would be. I’m sure he must have considered various scenarios that he didn’t include in his article.

    One possible scenario is a greatly expanded central government with more power and individuals with even less freedom. Based on history, however, that seems to be the path we have been on for a very long time, and I’ve seen no evidence to suggest that we will deviate from this path.

    Another possible scenario is the break-up of the county into smaller sovereign states. How that could play out is a subject that could occupy several books, but there is a possibility that freedom-minded individuals in a smaller area could push for founding governing principles like out original Confederation of States – prior to the Constitution – but with built-in safeguards against state growth based on lessons learned from the failure of our current Constitution to curtail the growth of Leviathan.

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