Coronavirus

States Can't Shut Down Non-Essential Businesses Without Harming Essential Ones

The coronavirus outbreak offers another view of the limits of central planning.

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Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Wolf (D) issued one of the more sweeping responses to the COVID-19 outbreak on Thursday evening: he ordered all "non-life-preserving" businesses in the state to close, indefinitely.

"To protect the health and safety of all Pennsylvanians, we need to take more aggressive mitigation actions," Wolf said in a statement announcing the new anti-virus measures. "We need to act with the strength we use against any other severe threat. And, we need to act now before the illness spreads more widely."

Acting "with strength" meant threatening fines, citations, and the loss of licenses to any business who defied Wolf's order for more than a day—the order to close took effect at 8 p.m. on Thursday, but enforcement would be postponed until Saturday morning, the governor's statement explained.

By the end of the day on Friday, governors in California, Illinois, and New York had issued statewide orders to shutter so-called "non-essential" businesses and telling people to stay home except for emergency situations. But all those states have more reported coronavirus cases than Pennsylvania does, and none of those other orders came with similar promises of punitive measures.

Republican lawmakers in the state's General Assembly criticized Wolf for the timing of his announcement. It was made after the close of normal business hours on Thursday, potentially leaving many businesses and employees unsure about what to do on Friday morning.

"The ill-prepared actions, announced after normal business hours, are not only an economic blow to every worker in the state right now but will have ramifications long into the future," Republican legislative leaders wrote in a joint statement. "It is incumbent upon all state leaders to recognize that long after we have defeated this public health threat, we must have the ability to create economic opportunities for all Pennsylvanians."

Even in the short-term, shutting off all supposedly nonessential economic activity poses a risk. "Many of the industries listed as 'non-life-sustaining businesses' in the governor's order are in fact part of the supply chain for other businesses listed as being a 'life-sustaining' business," the Pennsylvania Chamber of Commerce pointed out in a statement. To businesses subject to the order, the governor's announcement seemed confusing and arbitrary.

That's the difficult balance that elected officials and bureaucrats now must try to strike. How extreme should shut-down and shelter-in-place orders be, and how long should they last?

"If everything we do saves just one life, I will be happy," New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) said Friday, as he announced a new round of restrictions on businesses and individuals.

Yes, containing the virus' spread and helping prevent the health care system from being overwhelmed must be the top priority, of course, but it cannot be absolute in the way that Cuomo described. As the Pennsylvania Chamber pointed out, hospitals can't stay open without supply chains, and health care workers—and lots of other people—may need access to other nonessential services to get by.

Wolf's decision to include laundromats in his initial shut-down order is a good example. Those are indeed essential for many Pennsylvanians who may not have the necessary equipment to wash and dry their clothes—to say nothing of the people who own or work at laundromats—but they are also semi-public spaces where lots of people are touching the same handles, dials, and buttons.

By Friday night, however, the Wolf administration had reconsidered parts of the order. Now, laundromats can remain open, along with law firms, coal mines, hotels, accountants, and businesses connected to the timber industry—all of which had initially been subject to the shut-down order. The governor also postponed enforcement of the shut down until Monday morning, and the state announced a waiver process to allow other businesses to request permission to remain open as well.

Does that strike the right balance between protecting the economy and public health? Well, we can hope.

Under the best of circumstances, policymakers suffer from what the philosopher and economist F.A. Hayek famously called "the knowledge problem." Only a price-driven market can solve the endless complex questions of what is needed where, and in what amounts. The coronavirus has crippled markets to some degree, but they are finding ways to respond. Too often, policymakers seem determined to prevent that.

That being said, I'm honestly not sure that there is a right answer to the question of how far policymakers should be willing to go in pursuit of stopping the spread of COVID-19. But it seems plausible that we're underestimating the economic damage that these statewide shutdowns will do.

"I am deeply concerned that the social, economic and public health consequences of this near total meltdown of normal life—schools and businesses closed, gatherings banned—will be long-lasting and calamitous, possibly graver than the direct toll of the virus itself," writes David L. Katz, former director* of the Yale-Griffin Prevention Research Center and president of True Health Initiative, in The New York Times. "The path we are on may well lead to uncontained viral contagion and monumental collateral damage to our society and economy."

"We should be putting more weight on the economic and health damage that will be risked by extended business shutdowns," writes Chris Edwards, director of tax policy studies at the Cato Institute. "Governments are offering emergency business loans, but that won't compensate for the massive income loss imposed if this extends for more than a few weeks."

Again, look to Pennsylvania. The New York Times' Jonathan Martin reported on Thursday that more than 180,000 of the state's residents had applied for unemployment benefits in the previous few days. And that was before Wolf's mandatory shutdown order took effect. For comparison's sake, there were 210,000 unemployment applications nationwide a week ago. Goldman Sachs expects more than 2 million Americans to seek unemployment this week alone—and that's before the more aggressive measures now being taken by some states.

In a press conference on Friday, Wolf said the shutdown order was necessary to protect Pennsylvania's health care system from becoming overwhelmed. He said the announcement was made after consultation with the federal government—including the White House and the Department of Homeland Security. That raises the prospect of similar orders being issued in other states in the days to come.

If so, then the question turns to enforcement. As Reason editor-at-large Matt Welch pointed out this week, enforcement of curfews and full-fledged economic shutdowns will require pulling limited resources away from other, likely more crucial purposes. And as Reason senior editor Robby Soave wrote, there are limits to what people are willing to endure. Total shutdowns cannot be expected to last for weeks or months. An equilibrium will be found—either purposefully and orderly by official policy, or haphazardly when people simply can't take it anymore.

Wolf deserves credit for backing down a bit from his initial order, and for trying to find that equilibrium, though it may be impossible. The coming days and weeks will tell if he has succeeded.

There is little to do at this point but hope that our elected and appointed officials can pull the right levers and steer the country and its economy through this. But under the best of circumstances, we should be skeptical about their ability to do that—and these are far from the best of circumstances.

*This article originally misidentified David L. Katz's role at the Yale-Griffin Prevention Research Center. He is the former director.

NEXT: Shuttering Farmers Markets Over COVID-19 Is Stupid, Dangerous, and Counterproductive

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  1. “It is incumbent upon all state leaders to recognize that long after we have defeated this public health threat, we must have the ability to create economic opportunities for all Pennsylvanians.”

    “Never let a crisis go to waste” is punchier.

    1. What the politicians are thinking:
      “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”–Jesus

      What they are actually saying:
      “Shut up and drink this koolaid.”–Jim Jones

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  2. Anyone else feel like Fauci is enjoying the fame and spotlight a bit too much and is trying to kill any hope or calmness in the population? He refuses to acknowledge some of the positive studies on treatments and keeps emphasizing 18 months of panic.

    At least not every politician is in full panic mode. Trump has refused to issue a stay in place order. Meanwhile dem governors across the nation are shutting everything down. Arizona’s governor finally added another week to the order through April 1that because all the dem mayors already did. Pima county has 5 cases and they are in stay in place orders. Nobody is listening.

    If we stay under 1000 nationwide deaths by April, people are going to stop listening. This is insanity in the response.

    10p car deaths a day. 3k more flu deaths since February. Wont even get into the deaths from heart disease. The panic is way too much.

    1. Didnt you hear, if it saves just one life Cuomo will be happy. Now stop complaining and get in line for your bread. *Gun cocks*

      1. Fauci has been around since the 80’s when he was the CDC’s face man for the AIDS crisis.

        1. When was there an Aids crisis?

          1. There wasn’t. I don’t remember Fauci, but C Edwin Koop used to run around trying to convince everyone that it’s a straight people crisis too.

            1. Ya i was trying to be rhetorical. Gays and and heavy needle users dont constitute a crisis in my books. Make better choices.

              1. In those days Aids was a death sentence. Some people contracted it from getting blood transfusions. Arthur Ashe and Ryan White were infected that way.
                There was a POS gay dentist that had it and infected some of his patients deliberately. It’s the reason Gay men aren’t allowed to give blood even though they’re whining to get that overturned.

              2. Haitians disagree.

                1. Do they still believe in voodoo?

          2. Beginning around 1980. At that time doctors began noticing clusters of unusual diseases. PCP pneumonia and Kaposi’s sarcoma. It took around 4 years until the viral cause was isolated and identified.

            By 1999 HIV was estimated to be the fourth leading cause of death globally.

            I would call that a crisis.

              1. Ya weren’t there were ya laddie?

            1. I wouldn’t call heart disease a crisis.

              *i may be wrong about the #1 cause of death now.

              1. Heart disease. Well break that down for me into what that really is. Then you pass first quiz.

                Infectious disease is something entirely different.

        2. Dr. Drew’s last podcast was pretty interesting on Fauci. I just listened to it this morning. He’s been working with Fauci since the 80s. Drew said to take Fauci’s directions, but don’t listen to the rhetoric. Fauci over stimulates his rhetoric to get people to listen to the recommendations from the CDC. Drew pointed out a few times already that Fauci has had to correct himself the next day this pandemic from using overly heated rhetoric.

    2. “Anyone else feel like Fauci is enjoying the fame and spotlight a bit too much and is trying to kill any hope or calmness in the population?”

      Maybe? I choose the more charitable interpretation that Fauci is espousing a no-holds-barred approach to beating the virus and to hell with anything else. He’s a bureaucrat and a doctor, not a politician.

    3. “Anyone else feel like Fauci is enjoying the fame and spotlight a bit too much and is trying to kill any hope or calmness in the population?”

      Absolutely.
      Fauci sucks balls

      1. Your resentment toward your betters is making you cranky. Coupling that with your stupidity and ignorance generates some especially slack-jawed comments.

        Open wider, clinger.

    4. Anyone else feel like Fauci is enjoying the fame and spotlight a bit too much and is trying to kill any hope or calmness in the population? He refuses to acknowledge some of the positive studies on treatments and keeps emphasizing 18 months of panic.

      Apparently one of the emails from the DNC dump in 2016 is a thread with him praising Hillary for “powering through” her “pneumonia” episode, when she collapsed like a sack of potatoes in the 75-degree heat of NYC.

      1. Actually it was 90 degree heat, with high humidity. She had pneumonia, while carrying on a full campaign schedule.

        So yeah, she deserves praise. Of course your blind hate for her precludes that.

        1. Stop lying.

        2. Hillary Clinton is the strongest person to ever live in America. All praise Hillary.

        3. Bullshit. It was cloudy and in the seventies, and she did not “collapse”; she froze and was chucked into the van like a stick of firewood, clearly having an episode of Parkinsonism. A couple of hours later she appeared outside her daughter’s apartment apparently feeling fine, which would not have been possible if she had pneumonia, but would have been possible if got a dose of medication for her Parkinsonism.

          1. It’s not like that was the only sign of neurological malfunction either…

            1. Incidentally, Biden’s latest internet victory address was legitimately sad.
              That over thankfulness when his wife comes to bail him out… I’ve seen it before.
              And he still had to be called off stage after that. He clearly wasn’t “there” there

              1. Let us know when he gets even half as crazy as Trump.
                “Wind turbines cause cancer.”
                “I always knew it was a pandemic.”
                “The greatest economy ever.” (LESS than what Obama handed him; now two consecutive years of DECLINING growth, starting from the longest recovery EVER for an incoming President – from Obama)

              2. <

                Incidentally, Biden’s latest internet victory address was legitimately sad. That over thankfulness when his wife comes to bail him out

                (lol) That was weeks ago!

                She was standing at his right when the attacker came. The attacker came from BIden’s right.

                I’ve seen it before.

                Weeks before. Before now!

    5. Translation:

      Jesse et al’s lizard brains are knee jerking against any and all perceived threats against dear leader. Thus Fauci is a poopy-head.

      1. This coming from the same bitch who actually thought his son was going to get drafted to fight in a war with Iran.

        1. Non-sequitor.

          1. Like everything you’ve said in this response thread? I literally discuss panic vs non panic and you turned it into a “STOP DEFENDING TRUMP” while tears stream down your eyes.

            Hilarious to watch.

          2. Said Polis’s bootlicker.

          3. Non-sequitur.

            He’s the KING of diversions and evasions!

            1. And you’re the king of shrieking like a useless bitch.

              1. LINKING TO PROOF IS “SHRIEKING LIKE A BITCH” …. SHRIEKS THE BITCH!

                TRUMP has abandoned his local cult.
                FOX has abandoned his local cult.
                Both in desperation .
                BUT THE CULT REMAINS LOYAL TO ….; ITSELF. 🙂

                **Now shriek at MORE proof!

                AWESOME video shows Fox News hosts … side-by-side … before and after Trump’s YUGE flip-flop.
                https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1240131226268323842

                First ridiculing coronavirus as media hysteria to bring down the President … then FLIP-FLOPPING g to a MAJOR, REAL CRISIS … some within a few days!!

                What does this say about Fox’s contempt for their viewers’ intelligence? As they manipulate them … first in one direction …. then a quick reversal.

                How many viewers will again follow their robot-like mind control, to do a spinning Hannity pirouette? … also placing tribal politics above human life?

                Pollsters have just started reporting that Trump’s base is starting to fall away, after 2-months of continuing apocalyptic failures. How many times can Trump’s base stand by him … for shooting someone to death on Fifth Avenue … now that he’s placed their own family’s health and finances at risk? (And their supply of toilet paper)

                Much of his alt-right core is now ridiculing Trump in online forums, to defend their own denials. Rven Trump now manipulated by CNN, MSNBC, the NyTimes and WaPo? (gasp)

                We now also see the same video treatment of Trump. Trump NOW says he suspected it was a pandemic before anyone else did! After calling it a “DEMOCRAT HOAX: …and months of DENYING IT IS EVEN REAL.
                (Far worse than his lies about Charlottesville, to defend rioting, mass assaults and death by his racist and neo-nazi supporters)

                You’ll see all these videos again .. A LOT … all up to election day … IF he’s re-nominated).

                This now feels like it did, watching Nixon commit suicide.

                1. Lol, Dumbfuck Hihnsano proves me right again.

                  1. LINKING TO PROOF IS “SHRIEKING LIKE A BITCH” …. SHRIEKS THE BITCH!

                    AWESOME video shows Fox News hosts … side-by-side … before and after Trump’s YUGE flip-flop.
                    First ridiculing coronavirus as media hysteria to bring down the President … then FLIP-FLOPPING g to a MAJOR, REAL CRISIS … some within a few days!!
                    https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1240131226268323842

                    **Now shriek at MORE proof!

                    ) Also thinks readers are too stoopid to notice the difference.

                    KEEP DOING IT!

          4. Yet … somehow appropriate …

      2. It is amazing how you leftists are all in competition to see who can be the most idiotic.

        1. Not a leftist in any way shape or form. But….I’m also not a Republican shill. And you???

          1. Jesse’s brain only has room for two categories: Trump supporters and lefties.

            1. So 2 categories more than you are good for? You do realize you are largely a joke here right? Which is ironic because you try so hard to be funny, but can never be so. But I guess if you can’t have people laugh with you, may as well have them laugh at you. So congrats Chipper.

              1. You are terrible at logic, reasoning, jokes, and insult. You got nothing, Jesse.

                1. You’re terrible at existence, eunuch.
                  That is all

          2. Prove you’re not a leftist. You sure do push their talking points a lot. You could be one of the Lincoln Project, but they are no better. They are big spending, big government Conservatives from the Bush era.

            But you as hell for sure are not a libertarian.

            1. If libertarian is what you and the other Republican shills are…then you’re absolutely right that I’m not a libertarian. Maybe that’s the problem here. We are using two different definitions for the same word.

              1. You’ve never pushed for one libertarian goal. All you’ve done is push anti trump bullshit.

                So let’s settle this. Are you or are you not for panic and licking down of cities? Because that was the point of my initial post. You just took it as defending trump. So do you wish to restrict liberty based on a low statistical likelihood of the vast majority of the population dying? Be careful, if you say no you’re an automatic Trump footlocker by your own inference.

                1. Locking*

                2. I’m for the government suggesting a course of action and coordinating communication and aid. I’m on the fence but overall understand them closing large venues (Concerts, Bars, events) where people can congregate and spread the virus. Other than that I don’t support shelter in place laws and feel that aside from violating our rights and overstepping any constitutional authority, crushing the economy is not the proper course of action to defeat a virus that is about as deadly as the flu to most Americans.

                  1. Then maybe stick to that instead of expressing butthurt groupthink…

                  2. The only people who need to “shelter in place” are the ones who are high risk. Everyone else needs to go back to work tomorrow (Monday morning), reopen their businesses, before we sink into an economic depression and stockmarket tank. Destroying everyone’s 401k’s and retirement plans are going to harm far more senior citizens than one virus.

                    1. Why the FUCK are you Trumptards so IGNORANT of the issue. You DEMAND that possibly infected people go out, mingle and spread MORE death and disease. WHY?

                      ONE CAN BE INFECTED WITH NO SYMPTOMS FOR UP TO 14 DAYS …. THUS A THREAT TO ANYONE NEARBY.

                      before we sink into an economic depression and stockmarket tank. before we sink into an economic depression and stockmarket tank.

                      THE STOCK MARKET ALREADY TANKED.– NOW AS BAD AS TRUMP’S ECONOMY.

                      And, because Trump stayed in denial for months … it’s now too late to stop his recession (or worse), Especially with you people wanting MORE infections.

                    2. Dumbfuck Hihnsano was noticeably silent about the 80,000 people who died of the flu in 2018.

                    3. ONLY THE FOURTH TIME ON THIS PAGE
                      **CAN**YOU**HEAR**ME**NOW?

                      “***********”Less than two years ago, the seasonal flu was especially deadly. It killed an estimated 61,000 Americans, but it didn’t overwhelm health care workers and hospitals, as COVID-19 did in Italy and threatens to in the U.S. Those people (with seasonal flu) were spread out from November to April or May. Our healthcare system is designed to handle that kind of load. Not so with COVID-19.”

                      *** DO THE MATH, GOMER
                      1) 100% of America has been exposed to seasonal flu.
                      2) Red Rocks wants COVID-19 to grow from 8% to 100% exposure, as quickly as possible.
                      3) COVID-19 is 5-10 times more deadly

                      *** Which is WHY even Trump and Fox have been forced to abandoned Red Rocks’ crazed disdain for human life.

                      Red Rocks is psycho.

                      ***PAY ATTENTION:
                      1) The PURPOSE of preventive measures is to delay full COVID-19 exposure …. until a vaccine can be developed, which will take 12-18 months … and there is now NO proven cure.

                      2) No amount of screeching can save Trump’s ass, for his two months of lies and denials — the President who originally said the virus is a “Democrat hoax.”

                      COVID-19 DEATH RATE 25X WORSE THAN SWINE FLU
                      ***********”Less than two years ago, the seasonal flu was especially deadly. It killed an estimated 61,000 Americans, but it didn’t overwhelm health care workers and hospitals, as COVID-19 did in Italy and threatens to in the U.S. Those people (with seasonal flu) were spread out from November to April or May. Our healthcare system is designed to handle that kind of load. Not so with COVID-19.”

                      “The challenge with COVID-19 is we are all eligible to get sick and spread the disease all at the same time.”

                      ELIGIBLE, because none are immune, unlike seasonal flu. DUH

                      Last week, Trump said this at a news conference in the Oval Office: “If you go back and look at the swine flu and what happened with the swine flu, you’ll see how many people died and how actually nothing was done for such a long period of time, as people were dying all over the place.

                      STILL BLAMING OBAMA – LIKE OBAMA KEPT BLAMING BUSH
                      Dying BECAUSE nothing was done! And this is 25 times worse (keep reading)

                      Data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention track the increase of H1N1 swine flu in 2009 from the day of the first death – April 28th, 2009 — compared with the rise of COVID-19 since the first U.S. coronavirus death was reported in Washington on Feb. 29.

                      … the CDC had confirmed 4,226 COVID-19 cases in 16 days since the first death.

                      At the same stage in 2009, the CDC had tallied 3,352 H1N1 cases.

                      But, contrary to Trump’s claims, the death rate for COVID-19 has far outpaced H1N1 over the same span.

                      The CDC had confirmed 75 COVID-19 deaths through Monday. By contrast, 16 days after the first swine flu death, there were only three H1N1 deaths reported to the CDC.

                      COVID-19 is 25 times more deadly than swine flu

                      The CDC estimates about 12,000 Americans ended up dying from swine flu between April 2009 and April 2010.

                      12,000 x 25 = 300,000
                      For low IQs, see simple charts at the source

                      **”… (swine flu) didn’t go away. Many people don’t realize it’s now part of the seasonal flu and covered by the annual flu vaccine. … COVID-19 is completely new, is hitting on top of the seasonal flu, has no vaccine and clearly warrants the stronger response because nobody is immune. “The challenge with COVID-19 is we are all eligible to get sick and spread the disease all at the same time

                      ***********”Less than two years ago, the seasonal flu was especially deadly. It killed an estimated 61,000 Americans, but it didn’t overwhelm health care workers and hospitals, as COVID-19 did in Italy and threatens to in the U.S. Those people (with seasonal flu) were spread out from November to April or May. Our healthcare system is designed to handle that kind of load. Not so with COVID-19.”

            2. ANOTHER massive screwup!

              Prove you’re not a leftist. You sure do push their talking points a lot. You could be one of the Lincoln Project,

              THEY ARE NOT LEFTISTS!!! SMALL-GOVERNMENT, REAGAN CONSERVATIVES, CO-FOUNDED BY GEORGE CONWAY.

              NEXT 🙂

              They are big spending, big government Conservatives

              NO LONGER THE LEFTISTS OF TWO SECONDS EARLIER????

              READY FIRE AIM

              WHICH ARE THEY NOW? *SNEER*

              1. Fuck off, Hihn … your Depends are leaking on the keyboard again.

                1. How can they be BOTH leftists and conservatives, as stated by JesseAz???

                  Depends are leaking on the keyboard again.

                  (wipes keyboard) Yours leaked on your brain! (sneer)

    6. I know Trump sure enjoys the fame and spotlight

      But that’s OK I guess

      1. Eric is outdoing you, say something stupider. You need to catch up.

        1. What’s strange is you spend all day here defending Trump and then get butt hurt someone calls it out. Why not just own it at this point?

          1. I actually didn’t even defend Trump here. I simply stated a fact that he hasn’t issued a stay in place order. That isn’t a defense, that is offering a counterfactual to the many democratic governors and mayors. I even criticized the Republican Governor.

            You have such a hard on to trash Trump on everything you can’t realize you are the problem.

            You realize you’re the one with the issue right?

            I don’t get hurt by anything you idiots say. You have no perspective, you offer nothing of value to a conversation. Such as this one. I literally just stated this: “At least not every politician is in full panic mode. Trump has refused to issue a stay in place order. ” That is not a defense. That is a statement of fact.

            You know how desperate you appear to have to attack Trump at everything right?

            1. You realize that your entire response is just projection, right?

              But I’ll bite. My issue with you is not that you might defend Trump. Hell, amongst my mostly progressive family I spend most time defending him too. Or at least trying to get them to gain some perspective. No, my issue is that you and your compatriots clog up a libertarian website with single viewpoint drivel and groupthink and then shout down anyone who dares challenge your viewpoints.

              1. I didn’t shout down shit you fucking idiot. You were the first one to attack here. Outside of Jeff I tend to only attack viewpoints when they digress into bullshit arguments like you started here.

                Your first post was the one that attempted to shut down someone viewpoint. And you want to discuss projection?!? You literally just accused me of doing what you actually did dumbfuck.

                This is like sarcasmic running in yesterday to accuse me of wishing death on everyone. None of you have a god damn valid argument and are so anti trump you just assume any non anti trump statement is blind support. Ove given my disagreements multiple times on these threads about trump, to Tony, sqrsly, jeff etc. But because I dont reflexively spew anti trump talking points you assume I’m a boot kicker.

                Again eric, you’re the problem.

                Jerryskids even found a 2009 post from me espousing the exact same views currently as I did then. I havent changed my views. Trump aligns with them a lot more than the Democrats, that’s for sure. But agreement with him on items isnt worship.

                for you want want to have an honest conversation dont reflexively yell out trump footlocker like you, sarcasmic, abc, and chipper do. None of you are capable of honest argumentation.

                1. In fairness, eric is basically a poor man’s jeff

    7. The issue is the annual deaths from car accidents and heart disease don’t hit a hospital all at the same time, and for the most part, are distributed fairly evenly across all hospitals. Because this is a new virus, the population lacks immunity, so it’s rather unfair to compare it to seasonal flu where there is a vaccine that can either provide immunity or at least reduce the severity of symptoms so that the vast majority of people exposed to it don’t develop pneumonia. When you have an outbreak of a communicable disease, the cases will be clustered in the community- easily overwhelming an individual locality’s resources. It is a shame that we are focused on the death counts, not COVID-19 hospitalizations, since even if people don’t die from COVID-19, those who are hospitalized and later recover still used resources that would be going to people who had heart attacks, severe asthma attacks… or developed pneumonia from seasonal flu.
      Dr. Fauci is being an “alarmist” because, unchecked, cases of the coronavirus grow exponentially. In China, there were only about 650 confirmed cases in the whole country before they put Wuhan on lockdown on Jan 23, and they still ended up with over 80k cases and 3,139 deaths- and that’s with constructing 16 temporary hospitals. Italy had about 60 confirmed cases when it implemented an imperfect quarantine of Northern Italy on Feb 22, and now Lombardy has so many deaths the army had to be called in to help transport them to overwhelmed crematoriums. The Governor of Nevada recently tweeted that they have only about 140 free ICU beds statewide. It is already too late (nevermind that we don’t have the testing capability) to take South Korea’s approach to containing the virus. When there is evidence of sustained community spread, reducing people’s physical contact is the only way to curb the growth in the number of cases. Since it takes approximately 3-13 days for symptoms to manifest, even if lockdowns successfully prevent any new transmissions, we can expect to see an explosion of cases in the next two weeks as people become ill from exposures to coronavirus that have already occurred. I thoroughly don’t expect this to change your mind, but I post this in case anyone who is not a hardened ideologue or partisan peruses the comments.
      ps- I used to have libertarian leanings but reading these comments, I have to say this is not the company I’d like to keep nor a club I’d want to join.

      1. Weve had disaster mitigation and practice since 2009. Italy didnt. Hospitals have already shit down all non emergency surgeries, every surgical rook has extra ventilators. There has already also been a reach out to outpatient centers for utilization of their ventilators. We are in a good position to respond to respiratory outbreaks. Weve been preparing for this for a decade with the first SARS outbreak.

        But instilling panic can cause more danger than just prepping. We seen that in the panic buying of gloves, masks, etc. We also have everyone rushing to hospitals w common colds out of fear, actually causing and overload to the system. This includes a mixing of flu, cold patients, and covid patients which will extend exposure of multiple viral vectors.

        In this case the panic is worse than the current pandemic.

      2. “The Governor of Nevada recently tweeted that they have only about 140 free ICU beds statewide.”

        Interesting, because the governor of Florida said yesterday that we have upwards of 15k free ICU beds.
        Leads me to believe that the problem is less the virus, and more Nevada’s hospital system

      3. it’s rather unfair to compare it to seasonal flu where there is a vaccine that can either provide immunity or at least reduce the severity of symptoms so that the vast majority of people exposed to it don’t develop pneumonia.

        That’s not how the seasonal vaccine works. They make an educated guess on which strains will be most prominent and produce a vaccine for those. But tens of thousands of people still die from the flu every year.

        So again, is it really worth putting a bullet in the economy’s head, which is going to cause massive second-order effects on a scale we haven’t even seen yet, to make what is proving to be an ultimately futile attempt to save a sector of the population that would have been most at risk regardless?

        1. COVID-19 DEATH RATE WORSE THAN SWINE FLU

          “The challenge with COVID-19 is we are all eligible to get sick and spread the disease all at the same time.”

          ELIGIBLE, because none are immune, unlike seasonal flu

          Last week, Trump said this at a news conference in the Oval Office: “If you go back and look at the swine flu and what happened with the swine flu, you’ll see how many people died and how actually nothing was done for such a long period of time, as people were dying all over the place.

          Dying BECAUSE nothing was done! And this 25 times worse (keep reading)

          Data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention track the increase of H1N1 swine flu in 2009 from the day of the first death – April 28th, 2009 — compared with the rise of COVID-19 since the first U.S. coronavirus death was reported in Washington on Feb. 29.

          … the CDC had confirmed 4,226 COVID-19 cases in 16 days since the first death.

          At the same stage in 2009, the CDC had tallied 3,352 H1N1 cases.

          But, contrary to Trump’s claims, the death rate for COVID-19 has far outpaced H1N1 over the same span.

          The CDC had confirmed 75 COVID-19 deaths through Monday. By contrast, 16 days after the first swine flu death, there were only three H1N1 deaths reported to the CDC.

          COVID-19 is 25 times more deadly than swine flu

          The CDC estimates about 12,000 Americans ended up dying from swine flu between April 2009 and April 2010.

          12,000 x 25 = 300,000

          **”… (swine flu) didn’t go away. Many people don’t realize it’s now part of the seasonal flu and covered by the annual flu vaccine. … COVID-19 is completely new, is hitting on top of the seasonal flu, has no vaccine and clearly warrants the stronger response because nobody is immune. “The challenge with COVID-19 is we are all eligible to get sick and spread the disease all at the same time

          ****”Less than two years ago, the seasonal flu was especially deadly. It killed an estimated 61,000 Americans, but it didn’t overwhelm health care workers and hospitals, as COVID-19 did in Italy and threatens to in the U.S. Those people (with seasonal flu) were spread out from November to April or May. Our healthcare system is designed to handle that kind of load. Not so with COVID-19.”

          1. Dumbfuck Hihnsano hiding from a cold bug like a bitch.

        2. Destroying the economy over this is insane.

          1. Destroying the economy over this is insane.

            1) Trump did it anyhow
            2) He was CLUELESS about “this” threat.
            3) Now he rejects your ignorance of it.
            4) And it’s too late to save your self-destroyed idol
            5) Or all the death and destruction he caused by (a) Calling it a “Democrat hoax” … then (b) spending two months denying it was real …. that it would “magically disappear.”

            You’re just pissed that he suckered you, so you want to punish the innocent for your own failure.

            1. It’s not Trump shutting down “non-essential” businesses and issuing fascist “shelter in place” orders, you moron.

              1. IT’S TRUMP WHO SAID IT WAS
                “A DEMOCRAT HOAX”
                “WILL MAGICALLY GO AWAY”

                you moron.

                I’ll TRY to dumb it down.

                1) 100% of America has been exposed to seasonal flu.
                2) Red Rocks wants COVID-19 to grow from 8% to 100% exposure, as quickly as possible.
                3) COVID-19 is 5-10 times more deadly

                *** Which is WHY even Trump and Fox have been forced to abandoned Red Rocks’ crazed disdain for human life.

                Red Rocks is psycho.

                ***FOR LOW IQS
                1) The PURPOSE of preventive measures is to delay full COVID-19 exposure …. until a vaccine can be developed, which will take 12-18 months … and there is now NO proven cure.

                2) No amount of screeching can save Trump’s ass, for his two months of lies and denials — the President who originally said the virus is a “Democrat hoax.”

                ****WHY IS THIS ROCKET SCIENCE TO RED ROCKS??.

                ****WHY DID TRUMP ACTIVATE THE NATIONAL GUARD TO HELP ENFORCE PROTECTIVE MEASURES — WITH THE FEDS ALL COSTS — BUT HE EXPLICITLY LEFT THOSE “FASCIST GOVERNORS IN CHARGE OF TROOPS PAID BY TRUMP? Who’s the moron?

                ***TRUMP IS FINALLY IN DESPERATION PANIC AS HIS LEGACY HAS BEEN TOTALLY DESTROYED … WHILE TRUMPTARDS WORK TO MAKE HIS SELF-DESTRUCTION EVEN WORSE!

                (Gomers now a bigger threat to American than the pandemic)

      4. Dr. Fauci is being an alarmist, as are Democratic governors not because they give a shit about people, but because they’d rather people fear a virus than hang them from the nearest tree because they created and continue to champion a healthcare system that is completely incapable of responding to market demand.

        If you dont understand that, then you are not a benefit to libertarianism anyway. Fuck off and good riddance.

        1. hahahaha
          FAUX libertarian whines that Fauci is sending people into our health care system BECAUSE THE SYSTEM IS INCAPABLE OF HANDLING THE DEMAND.

          (For anyone without their head up their own ass, everyone TLBD mentioned is doing the exact opposite … but somebody else MUST take the blame for Trump causing so much death and destruction!

    8. Trump doesn’t have the authority to issue a stay in place order. That belongs to state governors. I’m surprised the 10th Amendment squad here hasn’t reminded you of that simple fact.

  3. Fake news Reason. Dear Leader saw this crisis coming from a mile away. Everything is going according to plan. America has never been stronger. KAG!!

    “The virus will not have a chance against us. No nation is more prepared” the President said, before painting a rosy picture of an economy.

    “I think that’s a problem that’s going to go away,” Trump said of the virus, which has expanded this week in Italy, Austria, Croatia and Iran.

    “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA. We are in contact with everyone and all relevant countries. CDC & World Health have been working hard and very smart. Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”

    1. Shrieky-poo loves his fascist quarantine orders.

      1. And his child porn.

      2. THIS IS WHAT UNDENIABLE VIDEO PROOF LOOKS LIKE! 🙂 🙂
        (they’ll deny it anyhow!)

        DON LEMON SAYS TRUMP IS GASLIGHTING YOU … AND ROLLS THE TAPE.

        Lemon is usually too snarky for me, but this is DEVASTATING … MANY video clips … crushing Trump’s lies with Trump’s own words..

        **Trump NOW says he always knew it was a pandemic.
        Did YOU get suckered?
        (Red Rocks did!)

        ***In February Trump said it’s a Democrat hoax … AND a pandemic??! (smirk)
        Did YOU swallow that psycho lie? (Red Rocks did!)

        Trumpsters SCREAM in rage, “FAKE NEWS. HE NEVER SAID THAT”. See THAT fuckup of Trump’s at 2:23 in the video. (roflmao)
        Plus over a dozen clips of him saying the virus no problem … AT THE SAME TIME HE KNEW IT WAS A PANDEMIC??
        Did YOU get suckered AGAIN?
        .(YES, HE DID!)

        The damage from Trump’s delay, if you haven’t seen it explained:
        On average, each infected person infects two more. So the longer we don’t avoid crowds, stores, workplaces, the more the virus expands exponentially, where each one infection becomes 3 … each 3 becomes 9 … each 9 becomes 27, etc. And one can be a carrier, UNKNOWN (no symptoms) for up to 14 days.
        Sorry, Trumptards, but younger people are as dangerous a carrier as the older folks. As likely to infect … and kill … others.

        Dr. Sonjay Gupta says we’re escalating at the same rate as Italy, but 10 days behind.

        ***Yesterday, Italy had 793 deaths, in a country 1/5 our population. And we’ve been on the same curve. If we continue at our current pace, we’ll have 4,000 deaths in a single day, by month-end
        Umm, 793 x 5 = 3,965.

        Italy is way ahead of China on total deaths … caused by delays and indecision (a lot fewer than Trump’s foul ups)

        Per the Deep State and Vast Media Conspiracy, of course. 🙂

        1. Dumbfuck Hihnsano lives his fascist quarantine orders, too.

          1. THIS IS WHAT UNDENIABLE VIDEO PROOF LOOKS LIKE! ???? ????
            (they’ll deny it anyhow!)

            (smirk)

            1. Dumbfuck Hihnsano admits he loves fascist quarantine orders.

              Face your mortality like a man, you useless bitch.

              1. Red Rocks AGAIN publicly humiliated by Trump … along with Sevo and their ilk.

                BREITBART: Trump has now endorsed even the most severe restrictions by state governors … again throwing the alt-right under a bus, as he struggles to restore his crippled legacy

                TRUMP ACTIVATES NATIONAL GUARD IN CALIFORNIA, NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON TO HELP ENFORCE STATE AND LOCAL RESTRICTIONS … FEDERAL PAYS, GOVERNORS IN COMMAND – PER TRUMP’S ORDER

                President Donald Trump announced at the White House on Sunday that he had activated the National Guard in California, New York, and Washington.

                “I know that this is a challenging time for all Americans. We are enduring a great national trial,” Trump said. “We’re at war. In a true sense, we’re at war.”

                NOW he tells us! It’s NOT a Democrat hoax!!

                Trump said that he activated the National Guard under Title 32 status, allowing the guard to remain under the control of the governor, but is paid for by the federal government.

                Officials clarified that activating the National Guard would provide important resources to governors, but that it was playing an assistant role in the fight against the virus.

                “I want you to understand, this is not martial law,” FEMA Administrator Peter Gaynor said.

                (If martial law, the troops would be in charge.)

  4. Maybe start the order from the bottom up, rather than risking business to business operations that are all part of the web of modern life.

    Close services that have no branching economic web connections: nail and hair salons, tatoo parlors, bars, restaurant dining, etc. Not part of a business web, but merely dangling tendrils. The good or service provided does not go further to producing any further good or service. The risk benefit ratio is all risk (personal proximity) and no economic benefit.
    Daycares are a personal service, but they let health care workers go to work, and truckers who move supplies to the hospital, and industries that make masks and gowns, and IT support that runs our computers, and electric, gas and other utility workers that keep the lights on and plumbing flowing…
    Turns out there are a lot of essential people to the modern way of life. Especially if that job has been featured on the show Dirty Jobs, because someone has to clean up your shit.

    1. “Close services that have no branching economic web connections: nail and hair salons, tatoo parlors, bars, restaurant dining, etc. Not part of a business web, but merely dangling tendrils.”

      I was not aware that the workers in these places never spend any of the money they earn…

      1. It’s not about circulating money. It is about circulating a contagion.

    2. Hey, here’s a dicey one for you:

      Guns and ammo shops! Life sustaining, or not? I might sustain my life (and that of my family) in blowing away a home invader, does that count? Or, since I am a peon, I am supposed to call the cops, and wait 1/2 hour, to get that job done, by qualified “experts”?

      Will Government Almighty make a “compromise” here, and close the gun shops, lest the peons engage in unauthorized socializing there? And leave the gun shops open ONLY to the cops, whose guns ARE more genuinely “life sustaining”?

      1. If you don’t have a stock pile of at least two thousand rounds then you hardly qualify as a libertarian. Jeez.

        1. I’m really not sure if I have that many, or not. I’d have to go count. If not, I am close to that! So I may or may not be a real libertarian, in that sense!

          I do own a deadly-dangerous medical implement of destruction know as a “lung flute”! I might be able to use that (cheap plastic flute) to beat a home invader on the invader’s malicious head, but I’m kinda sceptical about how effective that might really-actually be…

          I do know, however, how to best FIGURATIVELY beat people over the head with my lung flute!!! And THAT makes me a real Libertarian!!!

          1. it makes you annoying. Seriously. Everyone and their mom is tired of it.

            1. PS, I would dearly LOVE to be proved wrong!!! Just ONE person on this chat board, go develop (or go exercise your existing) political power to get FIXED, this “lung flute” example of us Americans being turned into utter baby-slaves of Nanny Government Almighty! Fix it for us! PLEASE?!?! I have tried, and I can’t!

              Prove me wrong, fix it, and I’ll quit bitching about it!

              Otherwise, accept the lesson that chatting here is an utter waste of time, as far as is concerned, setting us free! Chatting blows off steam, that’s good, and exchange of info, and that’s about all!

              PLEASE-PLEASE-PLEASE prove me wrong, and get me some lung-flute freedom!

              1. “chatting here is an utter waste of time”
                Why are you even here then hypocrite?

                1. Learn to read! Right above you!

                  “Chatting blows off steam, that’s good, and exchange of info…”

                  Roughly about 2 paragraphs of semi-standard “paragraph” size is too much for you?

                  1. I can read your ranting. Like the one below. You say this wont change freedom yet you come on here, to a libertarian website like everyone else to say something, presumably libertarian because it may have an effect or not? Some come here to have a good time, some come to troll. Some of us come here because we want to make sure were challenging ideas put foward and evaluating our own and that definitely is important to freedom. Blindly folliwing others words and ideas is definitely not libertarian. This is our modern civil discourse that allows us to connect all over the world.

                    1. Well, for those who have read about “lung flutes” 10,000 times, I apologize, and please just skip over it, if you see it.

                      For those NEW READERS who are pro-freedom-inclined, this cheap plastic flute is an utterly classic example of just HOW FAR we have allowed ourselves to be infantized! If you’ve not heard of it before, here is a classic example of very little freedom left in the USA, with which to regale your friends and family! I have heard of no worse cases than this one! (IMHO)

                      If there are any other obscure examples (no matter how seemingly trivial) of utterly absurd and inexcusable nannyism here in the USA, I for one would like to hear of it!

                  2. ““Chatting blows off steam, that’s good, and exchange of info…””

                    But nobody here wants to exchange information for your shit …

          2. Do you read the minds of “everyone”? Speaking for “everyone” without taking a census smacks of collectivism to me!

            The “lung flute” is a classic example (just ONE symbolic example) of utterly out-of-control nannyism in the USA. I have written letters to editors and politicians (even spoke personally to a politician) about this, for years, before giving up bitching about it to these kinds of folks, who, at best, nod their heads politely, and do NOTHING!

            If nothing else, I’m serving a public function here… lesser so, in “raising awareness” of the nanny issue itself, but also… of the fact that chat boards like this one are toothless bitch sessions… We can bitch ourselves blue all day, and Our Masters will keep right on enslaving us, every day! Till they start getting run through chipper-shredders and hung from lamps posts, nothing will change!

            So my meaningless bitching here == the same as all the other meaningless bitching!

            30 years from now, I will still be bitching about lung flutes, and they will still require a prescription… But only in the “Land of the Free, and Home of the Brave”, the USA!

            1. Yes. I read the minds of everyone.

            2. “30 years from now, I will still be”

              Let’s hope not

              1. GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY here calls for YOU, Nardz!!!

                Use your “political pull” to “FIX” this for us, so that I can buy a cheap plastic flute, in the USA… WITHOUT PERMISSION from our Fat OverLards! THEN I will quit bitchin’ about it!!!

                I PROMISE!!! Boy Sprouts, Pinky Swear, no crossed fingers behind my back, by Jove, by L. Ron Hubbard, by My Momma’s Cupboard, all that good stuff!!!

                1. You’re such a self-obsessed piece of trash that you don’t even take two seconds to think about the fact that everyone, including your boy sarcasmic, hates it when you post because it’s nothing but spam.

            3. It’s hard to know what to actually do. For example, with this whole virus insanity, what would be something someone could actually do other than complain about it? All I can think of is a national boycott and everyone simply goes back to work tomorrow and reopen all the businesses and things go back to normal before there is a national economic total disaster. The most at-risk people can stay home and shelter in place.

              1. EDUCATE YOURSELF TRUMPSTER,
                YOU GOT IT TOTALLY BACKWARDS.

                “MOST AT RISK” MEANS … OF DEATH
                *CARRIERS* OF THE VIRUS HAVE NO SYMPTOMS FOR UP TO 14 DAYS.

                The most at-risk people can stay home and shelter in place.

                While the CARRIERS of the virus keep infecting and killing others,

                ***The GREATEST threat spreading the virus is … the large number of Gomers spreading total ignorance of the issue.
                to America is the large number if Gomers

    3. “…Close services that have no branching economic web connections: nail and hair salons, tatoo parlors, bars, restaurant dining, etc…”

      Every one of those is as much a part of the economy as a grocery store.

    4. How about we really start from the bottom up? We just make sure the public is informed, advise them to avoid congregating in public any more than necessary, and let them decide which businesses they need to frequent.

      1. Read the idiots who comment here and then ask that question again.

    5. Are you fucking retarded? Do you realize how many service industry workers there are who are going to get fucked with these draconian shelter-in-place orders? All for an illness with a mortality rate that is practically non-existent for anyone below the age of 60.

      Sure, let’s put a bullet in the economy’s head to preserve the Boomers’ lifelong failure to come to grips with the fact that they’re not eternally youthful gods, they’re just meat sacks with an expiration date just like everyone else. Let’s continue outsourcing all of our medical production capacity to China (including medications and the circuit boards for the ventilators that everyone is screaming about) so when these people start spreading yet another contagion, we won’t have the capability to ramp up stock for what we need.

      I’m sure it will all be worth it so Grandma and Grandpa can continue to collect their Social Security checks and Medicare.

      1. “The new data show that up to one-fifth of infected people ages 20-44 have been hospitalized, including 2%-4% who required treatment in an intensive care unit. ”
        So yeah, the young aren’t dying, but 20% are getting hospitalized.

        1. So 2-4% of the infected in that cohort are actually requiring intensive care measures. 20 percent of all infected people in that age group are showing up because they’re showing symptoms and want a doctor to treat them.

          And they’re recovering, as the data shows.

        2. Even the young will die if they can’t get hospital care because of the cascade of cases. See Italy for a current example.

  5. “If everything we do saves just one life, I will be happy,”

    Of course you do, because you’re a stupid and evil person. When it costs $20 trillion, civilization collapses and a hundred million people starve to death to save that “just one life”, you’re still going to be a smug and self-righteous dickhead who thinks they made the right call. Some people could be fed feet-first into a woodchipper and a claim of self-defense would be entirely appropriate because they’re not breaking eggs to make an omelet, they’re breaking eggs just because they love breaking eggs.

    1. Well 99,999,999 people. Someone has to be made an example of comrade. That woodchipper wont feed itself.

  6. David Katz is 100% correct.

  7. People are discovering just how non-essential their role is in Top Men’s society. Not even all of Maslow’s base level of needs makes the cut.

  8. “If everything we do saves just one life, I will be happy,” New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) said Friday.

    With that attitude we are doomed

    1. Other life-saving measures to expect in the post-corona Peoples Republic of New York:

      Bans on swimming pools, aircraft, boats
      State-wide 5 mph speed limit for all vehicles
      No guns, knives, forks, sticks, rocks, ropes of any kind
      People allowed outdoors only wearing helmets and under state supervision

      1. I remember the days when people would say something like, “We’ll all be waiting for our one page letter from the government telling us what we CAN do.”

    2. Quick. Someone tell Cuomo the one life saved will be Rush Limbaugh’s.

  9. All “non-life-preserving” businesses, eh? Legislature, governor, I don’t see them preserving any lives.

  10. Unemployment will temporarily soar past the levels seen in the Great Depression. I wouldn’t be surprised if it is at 50% in states such as Penna.,

    1. Actually I’d expect the more industrialized states to do better than the service economy states. What the hell is going to happen in places like Nevada where the entire economy revolves around gaming?

      1. Holy shit this might be the push we need to finally get legal online poker!

        1. Umm…
          You have to know and trust the people you’re playing with, but there is plenty of “legal” online poker.
          Check out the app PPPoker.
          And pokerstars needs to get their shit together, because for whatever reason I can’t download and install it on my computer, so I’m missing all our quarantine tournaments.
          It’s so frustrating!

          1. Oh I’ve been playing for years and learned about bitcoin thanks to Black Friday. I just want our giant pool of US fish to be able to play. And this is the perfect excuse. US-facing sites with entries into casino-run tournaments could help the industry bounce back.

  11. No man has a right to deprive another man from the means to provide for himself or his family. Not unless at the point of a gun…
    Are we there yet?

    1. Be patient just a while longer, B.

      1. Gonna get some too…

  12. he ordered all “non-life-preserving” businesses in the state to close, indefinitely.

    Cue the court cases about “non-(life-preserving)” vs “(non-life)-preserving”.

  13. I’m sure that employees who live paycheck to paycheck would disagree about which businesses are “essential.”

  14. “It is incumbent upon all state leaders to recognize that long after we have defeated this public health threat, we must have the ability to create economic opportunities for all Pennsylvanians.”

    “We will do this by essentially starting from scratch, having eliminated many economic opportunities for all Pennsylvanians.”

  15. Isn’t there something in the constitution about a right to peacefully assemble?

    1. There used to be; some where near the part about “shall not be infringed”.
      But that is all over now. Welcome to the revolution. (hint: we lost)

      Every business in the country forced to close should sue for compensation for a ‘taking’. And I mean sure local, state, and federal levels.

      1. Ummm,
        COVID-19 DEATH RATE 25x WORSE THAN SWINE FLU

        Proof is fully documented at the following link
        https://reason.com/2020/03/20/our-best-weapon-against-coronavirus-is-to-test-everybody/#comment-8176078

        1. Yeah, for people over 70. No wonder you’re freaking out.

          1. Yeah, for people over 70. No wonder you’re freaking out.

            The data are for all age groups,
            You’ve attacked a source you never read.

            1. The data shows a drastic dropoff for anyone under 60.

              1. The data shows a drastic dropoff for anyone under 60.

                Not these data. Seems you still haven’t gone to the source.

                Adjusting for age would have made the swine flu comparison useless, And have nothing to do with the issue.

                Also “flattening the curve” ignores age.
                Reason: young people transmit the virus the same as someone Biden’s age, which many here would ignore.

              2. 793 dead in Italy today. But it’s just like the flu, right?

                1. 96 percent of those deaths are people over 60, you moron. 86 percent of them are over 70. Italy’s national health institute has confirmed it.

                  Keep hiding in your house like a bitch.

                  1. How stupid are they?

                    Chipper Morning Wood
                    793 dead in Italy today. But it’s just like the flu, right?

                    96 percent of those deaths are people over 60, you moron. 86 percent of them are over 70. Italy’s national health institute has confirmed it.

                    OMFG … do the math.
                    We are on the same growth curve as Italy, but 10 days behind, with 5x the population.

                    **If we stay at the same growth curve, we will see 4,000 deaths in one day, by month end.

                    RED ROCKS WHITE PRIVILEGE SAYS YOU’RE A MORON TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT 4,000 DEATHS IN ONE DAY, IN THE US.

                    WHY? ….. wait for it …

                    ***96 PERCENT OF THEM WILL BE OVER 6O!
                    YES HE DID!! SCROLL BACK

                    This is the Trump mentality. It’s as if Trump cloned himself.

                    1. Dumbfuck Hihnsano screeches that 4,000 people a day will die if we don’t institute fascist national quarantine measures.

        2. Fuck off and die, Hihn.

          1. God Damnit. Sarcasmic is going to blame me for wishing death on people again next time I call him out.

        3. Oh, and I checked;
          The fucking ignoramus cites his own post as “proof”!
          There are idiots, and then really stupid pieces of shit and at the bottom, there Hihn.

          1. Pure Hihnsanity…

          2. The fucking ignoramus cites his own post as “proof”!

            THIS IS WHAT I SAID, UP THREAD.

            “Proof is fully documented at the following link
            https://reason.com/2020/03/20/our-best-weapon-against-coronavirus-is-to-test-everybody/#comment-8176078

            TRANSLATION: The proof is AT that link. Check it.
            FULLY DOCUMENTED = linked to the source.

            Expects me to post the entire summary, and links, every time it’s relevant. Internet forums don’t work that way!

            1. You could link to the Source, but you prefer to link to your own external ramblings.

              1. Umm, my page includes a summary, AND conclusions.
                With the link — VERY critical with all the lies and bloviating here.

              2. but you prefer to link to your own external ramblings.

                Anyone who checks my link will see, in MAYBE 5 SECONDS that you’re full of shit.

                https://reason.com/2020/03/20/our-best-weapon-against-coronavirus-is-to-test-everybody/#comment-8176078

                1. You literally just proved my point dummy.

                  1. Not to anyone who clicks the link.

              3. “You could link to the Source,..”
                See above; there is no source other than that pathetic piece of shit citing his own post.

        4. That doesn’t address the fact that the government doesn’t have the authority to shut businesses down indefinitely for any fucking reason they want. The Commerce Clause is not a blank check for government to do whatever the fuck it likes.

          But I’m sure you’ll just crybully me with all caps and bold for pointing that out.

    2. You know who else liked to differentiate between “essential” and “non-essential”?

      1. A steam distillation column?

  16. 1. If the swimming pools are closed, why do we need the life preserver store to remain open?

    2. ” . . . and the state announced a waiver process to allow other businesses to request permission to remain open as well . . . ”
    So cronyism run rampant. The aristocracy of pull.

    3. I suspect 100% of employees would consider continuing to receive a wage as ‘life sustaining’.

  17. First step in managing this situation is not panicking. They have already failed. NO businesses should be shut down, nor should gatherings be prohibited. What they should do is shut up. Let people go about their normal life because this is not a big deal virus

    1. This is not a big deal virus

      It’s 25x more deadly than the swine flu was.
      (proof in next comment)

      1. Yeah, for people over 70. No wonder you’re freaking out.

        1. Yeah, for people over 70. No wonder you’re freaking out.

          The data are all age groups, and both genders.

          False assumption.

          And you repeat it all down the page!

          1. The data shows a drastic dropoff for anyone under 60. 86 percent of the deaths are people over 70.

            You lose.

            1. STILL refuses to read the source!
              THERE ARE NO SUCH DATA … NOT A WORD .. ON AGE … WHICH WOULD be … as useless as your next comment

              . 86 percent of the deaths are people over 70.

              ONE MORE TIME,
              Their INFECTION rate is the same … so …. ummm … they are carriers, infecting others. .

              USELESS because the PURPOSE is to measure the OVERALL death rate, BECAUSE
              1) The INFECTION rate is the same (SEE CHARTS AT SOURCE. There are TWO, infections AND deaths, but you REFUSE to check the source.
              2) How would YOU compare this with swine flu.

              1. Italy’s National Health Institute has reported those numbers, you idiot.

                You’re only having a cow because you can’t face your own mortality like a man.

                1. Are you INSANE?

                  YOU say only a MORON would care about Italy’s 793 deaths in one day, equivalent to 4,000 dead here, because ………… 96% of them were over 60.

                  YES HE SAID THAT. CLICK THE LINK!

                  HAVE YOU NO SHAME?
                  NONE AT ALL?

                  (uncontrolled vomiting)

                  1. Face your mortality like a man, bitch. Better yet, find religion so you actually have something to look forward to other than being dumped unceremoniously in a hole in the ground and forgotten.

          2. “The data are all age groups, and both genders.”

            You.
            Are.
            Full.
            Of.
            Shit.
            And I’m not alone in hoping you die soon; the world will be measurably better off without some scumbag piece of shit spreading lies.
            Fuck off and die, Hihn.

      2. 575k deaths vs 12k deaths… Swine Flu still the clear winner.

        1. WRONG METRIC
          YOUR MATH STILL SUCKS
          AND YOUR NUMBERS ARE BULLSHIT
          OVER A YEAR OF SWINE FLU ,.. VS A FEW MONTHS COVID-19

          ONE MORE TIME: The PACE can be compared ONLY for the SAME NUMBER OF DAYS per virus. Here, it’s the first 16 days for both.

          REPEATING THE CDC DATA
          COVID-19 = 1.75% (74/4226)
          SWINE FLU … 0.089 % (3/3552)

          1. I didn’t use any math, I used 2 numbers. You are really bad at logic and argumentation. You also can’t use the “number of days” metric because we actually don’t know the first case of either, they are going off of diagnosed cases. And with 86% of Covid19 carriers showing no symptoms, it is hard to say what the initial infection date actually is.

            Again, you’re really bad at argumentation.

    2. And that’s a step that most people, and all politicians and reporters, are just not ready to take.

  18. How would “price signals” deal with THIS?
    (simple graphs at source)

    COVID-19 DEATH RATE WORSE THAN SWINE FLU

    “The challenge with COVID-19 is we are all eligible to get sick and spread the disease all at the same time.”

    ELIGIBLE, because none are immune, unlike seasonal flu

    Last week, Trump said this at a news conference in the Oval Office: “If you go back and look at the swine flu and what happened with the swine flu, you’ll see how many people died and how actually nothing was done for such a long period of time, as people were dying all over the place.

    Dying BECAUSE nothing was done! And this 25 times worse (keep reading)

    Data from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention track the increase of H1N1 swine flu in 2009 from the day of the first death – April 28th, 2009 — compared with the rise of COVID-19 since the first U.S. coronavirus death was reported in Washington on Feb. 29.

    … the CDC had confirmed 4,226 COVID-19 cases in 16 days since the first death.

    At the same stage in 2009, the CDC had tallied 3,352 H1N1 cases.

    But, contrary to Trump’s claims, the death rate for COVID-19 has far outpaced H1N1 over the same span.

    The CDC had confirmed 75 COVID-19 deaths through Monday. By contrast, 16 days after the first swine flu death, there were only three H1N1 deaths reported to the CDC.

    COVID-19 is 25 times more deadly than swine flu

    The CDC estimates about 12,000 Americans ended up dying from swine flu between April 2009 and April 2010.

    12,000 x 25 = 300,000

    **”… (swine flu) didn’t go away. Many people don’t realize it’s now part of the seasonal flu and covered by the annual flu vaccine. … COVID-19 is completely new, is hitting on top of the seasonal flu, has no vaccine and clearly warrants the stronger response because nobody is immune. “The challenge with COVID-19 is we are all eligible to get sick and spread the disease all at the same time

    ****”Less than two years ago, the seasonal flu was especially deadly. It killed an estimated 61,000 Americans, but it didn’t overwhelm health care workers and hospitals, as COVID-19 did in Italy and threatens to in the U.S. Those people (with seasonal flu) were spread out from November to April or May. Our healthcare system is designed to handle that kind of load. Not so with COVID-19.”

    1. Yawn, you get paid by the comment?

    2. 96% of the CIVID-19 deaths in Italy have been people over 60; 86% of them were over 70.

      The global economy shouldn’t have to commit suicide just so you can continue being in denial that you have an expiration date, Dumbfuck Hihnsano.

      1. Add Red Rocks to the AMORAL … who DEMAND that younger people have a GOD-GIVEN RIGHT … to infect two others each (the average) … with a death rate 25% higher than swine flu.

        1. Dumbfuck Hihnsano wants a fascist nation so he doesn’t die of a cold.bug.

          1. ME a fascist!
            YOU demand that young people have a GOD-GIVEN RIGHT to infect — and kill — others.

            1. Stay hiding in your home like a scared bitch, Hihnsano.

                1. Aren’t you ashamed of hiding in your house from a flu bug? Come on, tough guy, show us how manly you are–get out of the house for once and walk around town.

        2. Yes, people have a god given right to interact with other people. That is how society works. The fact that you are at risk to exposure to bacteria or virus does not change that fact.

          1. DEFENDS A GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO NEEDLESSLY INFECT … AND KILL … OTHERS.

            Because: NO GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO LIFE

            Behold the alt-right.

            1. Anytime you leave your little bubble you are at risk child.

              1. Cowardly diversion

                1. Go lick an Indeterminately-Gendered Public Restroom Doorhandle, you Fucktard.

                  How’s THAT for a Diversion, Hihntard?

        3. So are you saying you don’t believe in free movement of people? Or freedom of association?

    3. COVID-19 DEATH RATE WORSE THAN SWINE FLU

      The death rate for swine flu was around 0.02%. Politicians and the media overreacted then, and they are overreacting now.

      The challenge with COVID-19 is we are all eligible to get sick and spread the disease all at the same time. ELIGIBLE, because none are immune, unlike seasonal flu

      That contradicts what is already known about COVID-19. The majority of people simply won’t get infected under normal conditions, and there is likely cross-reactivity with previous corona virus infections.

      Last week, Trump said this at a news conference in the Oval Office: […] Dying BECAUSE nothing was done! And this 25 times worse (keep reading)

      Trump was spreading b.s., and so are you.

      And there is nothing “to be done”, beyond the obvious: people over 60 and people with preexisting conditions should cut down on their social contacts, everybody else can go back to work.

      You really outdid yourself this time spreading misinformation and fear.

      1. The death rate for swine flu was around 0.02%

        For 12,000 deaths. CORVID-19 is 25 times higher. OFFICIAL DATA. You have …..

        And there is nothing “to be done”, beyond the obvious: people over 60 and people with preexisting conditions should cut down on their social contacts, everybody else can go back to work.

        YOUNG PEOPLE HAVE A GOD-GIVEN RIGHT TO INFECT OTHERS?

        ***EVEN TRUMP SAYS YOU’RE FULL OF SHIT!

        Last week, Trump said this at a news conference in the Oval Office: “If you go back and look at the swine flu and what happened with the swine flu, you’ll see how many people died and how actually nothing was done for such a long period of time, as people were dying all over the place.”

        **REPEAT: this is 25X more deadly than swine flu

        You really outdid yourself this time spreading misinformation and fear.

        1) CDC data
        2) Even Trump says you’re full of shit
        3) YOU “think” young people have a God-given right to infect AND KILL others.

        1. Keep hiding in your house from a cold bug like a baby back bitch, Hihnsano.

          1. (Ad by the Lincoln Project, a new Super-PAC for GOP conservatives, co-founded by George Conway. Apparently, they want to deny even Trump’s re-nomination. Wise.)

            GOP Super-PAC launches attack ad – replays two years of Trump’s delays, denials and lies on coronavirus.

            Lying is nothing new from Donald Trump. Apparently, his INSANE bullshit that he knew it was a pandemic before anyone else did was a bridge too far, for many. There are nearly a dozen new video compilations, all showing him lying and denying … all proving his guilt. Well beyond a reasonable doubt. They’ll all be campaign ads.

            1. Two years? The first coronavirus case was in December, you moron.

    4. You stupid shit, citing an estimate is not “proof”.
      Fuck off and die, Hihn.

      1. These are Sevo’s current blinders

        1) The “estimates” have NOTHING to do with the main point.

        2) AS IT SAYS. those estimated deaths were spread out over many months, so did not overwhelm hospitals and staff, THIS is escalating 25X faster, has overwhelmed Italy, and on track to do so here, thanks to Trump’s two months of delays, denials and lies.

        3) Quotation marks mean it was said by somebody else, NOT ME! duh

        4) Do we believe Sevo, or Dr. Frank Welch, medical director for emergency preparedness at the Louisiana Department of Health,? (lol)

        ***The RELEVANT data … death rates (umm, see title) … are NOT estimates. Tables are at the source, simple enough for even retards.

        They’re all PISSED … and, like Trump, HELPLESS … which is WHY Trump .. in desperation … has abandoned their HYSTERIA ,,, and is NO LONGER LYING about the facts. He’s left them all alone, twisting in the wind.

        1. Fuck off and die, you pathetic piece of shit. Make the world a better place.

          1. Repeat:

            They’re all PISSED … and, like Trump, HELPLESS … which is WHY Trump .. in desperation … has abandoned their HYSTERIA ,,, and is NO LONGER LYING about the facts. He’s left them all alone, twisting in the wind …. and SCREECHING “Fuck off and die”

            1. Dumbfuck Hihnsano is helpless against a flu bug.

              Face your lack of immortality like a man, bitch.

            2. Fuck off and die, coward.

              1. TRUMP has abandoned his cult here.
                FOX has abandoned his local cult here.
                Both in desperation.

                BUT THE CULT REMAINS LOYAL TO ….ITSELF! 🙂

                BOOGA BOOGA

                1. Coronavirus is coming to get you, Hihnny-poo! Booha booga!

                  LMAO.

                  1. https://twitter.com/KFILE/status/1240131226268323842
                    AWESOME video shows Fox News hosts … side-by-side … before and after Trump’s YUGE flip-flop.
                    1) First ridiculing coronavirus as media hysteria to bring down the President …

                    2) then FLIP-FLOPPING to a MAJOR, REAL CRISIS … some within a few days!!

                    What does this say about Fox’s contempt for their viewers’ intelligence? As they manipulate them … first in one direction …. then a quick reversal.

                    How many viewers will again follow their robot-like mind control, to do a spinning Hannity pirouette? … also placing tribal politics above human life?

                    Pollsters have just started reporting that Trump’s base is starting to fall away, after 2-months of continuing apocalyptic failures. How many times can Trump’s base stand by him … for shooting someone to death on Fifth Avenue … now that he’s placed their own family’s health and finances at risk? (And their supply of toilet paper)

                    Much of his alt-right core is now ridiculing Trump in online forums, to defend their own denials. ”Even Trump now manipulated by CNN, MSNBC, the NyTimes and WaPo? (gasp)

                    We now also see the same video treatment of Trump. Trump NOW says he suspected it was a pandemic before anyone else did! After calling it a “DEMOCRAT HOAX: …and months of DENYING IT IS EVEN REAL.
                    (Far worse than his lies about Charlottesville, to defend rioting, mass assaults and death by his racist and neo-nazi supporters)

                    You’ll see all these videos again .. A LOT … all up to election day … IF he’s re-nominated).

                    This now feels like it did, watching Nixon commit suicide.

                    1. Dumbfuck Hihnsano copypastas his own stupidity again.

                    2. Red Rocks AGAIN publicly humiliated by Trump … along with Sevo and their alt-right Gomers here.

                      From BREITBART, NOT MSNBC *smirk*
                      Trump has now endorsed even the most severe restrictions by state governors … again throwing the alt-right under a bus, as he struggles to restore his crippled legacy

                      TRUMP ACTIVATES NATIONAL GUARD IN CALIFORNIA, NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON TO HELP ENFORCE STATE RESTRICTIONS … FEDERAL PAYS, GOVERNORS IN COMMAND

                      President Donald Trump announced at the White House on Sunday that he had activated the National Guard in California, New York, and Washington.

                      “I know that this is a challenging time for all Americans. We are enduring a great national trial,” Trump said. “We’re at war. In a true sense, we’re at war.”

                      It’s NOT a Democrat hoax?? NOW he tells us!

                      Trump said that he activated the National Guard under Title 32 status,
                      allowing the guard to remain under the control of the governor, but is paid for by the federal government.

                      Officials clarified that activating the National Guard would provide important resources to governors, but that it was playing an assistant role in the fight against the virus.

                      “I want you to understand, this is not martial law,” FEMA Administrator Peter Gaynor said.

                      (If martial law, the troops would be in charge.)

                      Trump deserves praise, for publicly reversing two months of delays, denials and blatant lies.
                      Now, his alt-right cult remains the only national threat greater than COVID-19. They’re all alone.

    5. If you calculate the seasonal flu mortality rate like they are for COVID, deaths divided by confirmed cases, it comes to 10% yet no one has ever freaked out about that.

      1. NOBODY FREAKS OUT …. BECAUSE YOUR MATH SUCKS.

        SEE THE SOURCE

  19. “Goldman Sachs expects more than 2 million Americans to seek unemployment this week alone—and that’s before the more aggressive measures now being taken by some states.”

    That is millions applying for unemployment, 10x more than last month, which drives up costs for businesses that are closed and cannot pay that insurance. So the insurance pool gets thin, the states will have to go to the feds for relief, and while the debt and deficits can be ignored today, they will not be ignored forever. Expect more defaults and higher inflation.

    Was it worth it to save the lives of people who are likely close to death anyway? We will see if this experiment worked. I doubt anyone will claim they wish we had done things differently, but the reality is we should probably allow nature to take its course and get natural immunity. There will not be a vaccine for some time and we are assuming this thing doesn’t mutate.

    Meanwhile whatever happened to the Tea Party? Oh yeah they were coopted by the Republican Party which has never cared about debt or deficits. We cannot turn to the Democrats for fiscal responsibility. So plan for fan shitting in the future.

    1. Was it worth it to save the lives of people who are likely close to death anyway?

      Until about a couple of weeks ago, there was lots of uncertainty, so the caution was understandable. This could have been worse than the 1918 flu.

      By now, however, the data pretty clearly shows that healthy people under 60 should go back to a normal life; people with preexisting conditions and elderly should limit contact. In other words, just like a regular flu season.

      1. How do you know who’s healthy? (lol)

        1. Science, especially the medical kind (lol)

          1. TELL NOYB2 that even YOU say he’s full of shit.
            THEN TELL ALL OF US HOW TO TEST EVERYONE UNDER 60, WHEN WE CAN’T EVEN DO 1500 PER DAY YET … FROM TRUMP’S MISMANAGEMENT

            1. Only 4 percent of the deaths have been people under 60, you idiot.

              1. 38% OF INFECTIONS

                By now, however, the data pretty clearly shows that healthy people under 60 should go back to a normal life;

                Which 38%

                1. 4% OF THE DEATHS

                  Dumbfuck Hihnsano supports putting a bullet in the economy’s head because he’s scared of a flu bug.

            2. Can I just tell you to Fuck Off and Die, like everybody else?

              1. ANOTHER fail! *sneer*

                NOW TELL ALL OF US HOW TO TEST EVERYONE UNDER 60, WHEN WE CAN’T EVEN DO 1500 PER DAY YET … FROM TRUMP’S MISMANAGEMENT?

    2. “I doubt anyone will claim they wish we had done things differently”

      I must disagree with you there. When this is said and done, and sober statisticians look at ‘excess deaths’ over the next 6 years -unleashed due to economic collapse – I think everybody is going to wish that things had been done differently.

  20. How will politicians know when to lift these various business and public gathering restrictions?

    I’ve yet to hear one mention any benchmarks, such as “when we have x number of new cases per week”, or “when our local hospitals have x number of respirators”

    And doubtless, any area in which these restrictions are lifted will see a small spike in new cases …. what politician will be willing to “take the blame”?

    1. How will politicians know when to lift these various business and public gathering restrictions?

      Easy: when the political gain for them from lifting the restrictions will outweigh the political gain for them from keeping the restrictions in place. In part, that depends on the level of media hype about that disease; when the media get tired of this, that’s when it’s most likely to happen.

      Your health and well-being have nothing to do with it.

      1. PEE-PUL … don’t believe this IGNORANT poser.
        GOOGLE “flatten the curve.”

        New cases are now on a sharp upward curve.
        “Flatten the curve” means stopping the GROWTH in new cases. (a horizontal line — as we leaned in junior high)
        THEN the goal changes to forcing the curve downward (slowing the pace)
        Until the crisis has stopped. No more lines.

        This has been wildly and clearly reported.

        No need for all the hysteria and conspiracies, by those who know nothing. and don’t care to learn.

        1. |New cases are now on a sharp upward curve.|

          Funny how that works when you massively expand testing.

          1. LIE ABOUT WHAT I SAID

            GOOGLE “flatten the curve.”

            New cases are now on a sharp upward curve.
            “Flatten the curve” means stopping the GROWTH in new cases. (a horizontal line — as we leaned in junior high)
            THEN the goal changes to forcing the curve downward (slowing the pace)
            Until the crisis has stopped. No more lines.

            This has been wildly and clearly reported

            1. New cases are on an upward curve because we’re massively expanding testing. This is so obvious anybody but you can understand it.

              1. AGAIN LIES ABOUT WHAT I SAID

    2. How will politicians know when to lift these various business and public gathering restrictions?

      mobs with pitchforks?

      1. But mobs no larger than 10?

        1. The social distancing of 6′ is necessary anyway, what with being armed with assault pitchforks and all

    3. How will politicians know when to lift these various business and public gathering restrictions?

      Googe “flatten the curve.”

      1) New infections and deaths are collected daily , and placed into a growth chart, which show daily infections and deaths, on a curve.

      2) Current expansions are a near-vertical line. (Growing FAST)

      3) The current goal is to “flatten the curve.” no increased daily infections.

      4) THEN, they target stopping the growth entirely

      The current pace is 25X worse than the swine flu.

      1. Well, duh – but the question is still not answered. What’s the number? What are the specific benchmarks? (for any particular city/county/State.) 50% reduction in new cases? 100%? X-hundred new ventilators/masks/etc at local hospitals? Some combination of the above? Specifically, I mean. Is there a number? And who will make (take responsibility) for the decision of what that number is?

        1. Well, duh – but the question is still not answered.

          whoooooooooooooooooooosh..

          What’s the number?REPEAT, UNKNOWN.
          <blockquot< What are the specific benchmarks? (for any particular city/county/State.) 50% reduction in new cases? 100%? REPEAT: FLATTEN THE CURVE IS FIRST.
          THEM, I suspect the second step is to reduce the curve to zero.

          Since NONE of those benchmarks appear in a crystal ball somewhere … you actually expect people to “know” when all this occurs,

          And who will make (take responsibility) for the decision of what that number is?

          IT’S NOT BASED ON A NUMBER … BUT ON THE PACE. The curve could flatten at 1,000 deaths per dar, or 5,000 per day, or ANY dumber,

          Now … YOU tell me how many inches of snow will fall … in Chicago … in December of 2024.

          1. You still don’t get the point … how will politicians know when the benchmarks have been reached when nobody (including you!) can tell them what the benchmarks are or should be?

            You talk about the curve. Well the curve in new cases is a benchmark in and of itself … so tell us what the curve must be flattened to and for how long until these Governors, Mayors, and County Commissions can ease the business restrictions being imposed. You can’t … because you don’t know or you would have answered the question. And I haven’t heard any talking-head expert on teevee or the internet mention one either.

            Keep in mind also the statistical curve of new cases doesn’t take into account undiagnosed contagious people, so once restrictions are eased there will undoubtedly be small spikes in new cases and deaths … small spikes no politician is going to want to take responsibility for, IMO.

            1. … how will politicians know when the benchmarks have been reached when nobody (including you!) can tell them what the benchmarks are or should be?

              THEY DON’T KNOW … IN ADVANCE … AT WHAT NUMBER THE CURVE WILL FLATTEN …. WHICH IS WHY I SAID THE NUMBERS DON’T EXIST IN A CRYSTAL BALL.

              You asked for a number

              IT’S NOT BASED ON A NUMBER … BUT ON THE PACE. The curve could flatten at 1,000 deaths per dar, or 5,000 per day, or ANY dumber,

              NOW YOU CHANGE
              AND GO OFF THE RAILS!

              so tell us what the curve must be flattened to

              ***A FLAT LINE 🙂

              FLATTEN MEANS TO MAKE FLAT OR BECOME FLAT.
              https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flatten

  21. Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Wolf (D): “To protect the health and safety of all Pennsylvanians, we need to take more aggressive mitigation actions,”

    Spoken like a fascist.

  22. oh my god!!

  23. “…none of those other orders came with similar promises of punitive measures.”

    You didn’t read the fine print then. New York was openly threatening fines and business closures at gunpoint. Violating California’s order is a misdemeanor, punishable by fines, jail time, or both. They said would go easy on the enforcement at first, but that just means the police have discretion to persecute whoever they want.

    1. “San Jose police say they responded to 56 violations of the shelter-in-place order on Thursday. Starting next week, those who are not complying will face business license sanctions and health code violations.”

  24. If you can’t impeach him, you can always wreck his (and your) economy so he loses in November, eh? And reset the economy so low that even Joe Biden can claim credit for the rebuild.

    1. If the economy crashes there won’t be an election.

    2. (Ad by the Lincoln Project, a new Super-PAC for GOP conservatives, co-founded by George Conway. Apparently, they want to deny even Trump’s re-nomination. Wise.)

      GOP Super-PAC launches attack ad – replays two years of Trump’s delays, denials and lies on coronavirus.

      Lying is nothing new from Donald Trump. Apparently, his INSANE bullshit that he knew it was a pandemic before anyone else did was a bridge too far, for many. There are nearly a dozen new video compilations, all showing him lying and denying … all proving his guilt. Well beyond a reasonable doubt. They’ll all be campaign ads. He has destroyed himself

      1. Fuck off and die, Hihn.

  25. Barring effective therapeutics, current containment measures might simple be spreading out the final death toll from this from 3-5 months to 18+ months. The costs and collateral damage deaths will be much higher than the direct effect of the virus if this virus is still killing people a year from now.

    How did nobody think about any of this before now? There are so many different paths that we could have taken.

    I’m personally betting on effective drugs within 2-3 months. But the amount of sheer flying blind going on now is mind boggling to me.

    1. “…How did nobody think about any of this before now?..”

      Many here have and have also mentioned the outcome you predict. Unfortunately, we are being “lead” by politicos who are both not deep thinkers, nor particularly interested it letting a good crisis go to waste.
      Fuck ’em all with Hihn’s dick.

    2. How did nobody think about any of this before now?

      PEOPLE ARE DYING … AT A PACE 25x GREATER THAN SWINE FLU

      https://reason.com/2020/03/20/our-best-weapon-against-coronavirus-is-to-test-everybody/#comment-8176078

      They’re professionals. You don’t know where to look.

      The costs and collateral damage deaths will be much higher than the direct effect of the virus if this virus is still killing people a year from now.How did you calculate that?

      I’m personally betting on effective drugs within 2-3 months.

      THEY are professionals.
      THEY say 12-18 months to fully test a new drug?
      Who are you?

      But the amount of sheer flying blind going on now is mind boggling to me.

      Start following the news. Educate youself. instead of cringing in fear.

      1. Dumbfuck Hihnsano tells people not to cringe in fear while he cringes in fear of a flu bug.

        “DON’T WORRY, GUYS, I’M STILL GETTING MY SOCIAL SECURITY CHECKS! ALL IS WELL, EXCEPT YOU NEED TO GET FUCKED SO I CAN KEEP FILLING MY GOB!”

  26. If you are interested in putting a stop to these lockdown, consider joining my petition to end them:

    http://chng.it/QCBzX6f7

    1. What’s amazing is that this is a change.org petition! This really crosses political lines.

  27. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says

    By all means, lets destroy the entire financial system, economy and republic because virus. Our all knowing, wise omnipotent politicians could issue warnings to the group mentioned in the above link to stay the fuck home. Use the Italy study pre-existing conditions and smokers, asthmas. Its amazing that this is really happening-WTF.

  28. A friend of mine is an on-call driver for a independent warehouse that stocks parts for NCR in Chicagoland. When a company within 150 miles such as a supermarket has a cash register go out, a call to NCR prompts a call to the warehouse to deliver the necessary part pronto. So my buddy hops in his car, picks up the part at the warehouse, and delivers it ASAP. Makes good money doing it, which he turns around and buys more guns with it (which is an aside from the main point.)

    So… if supermarkets are “essential”, which everyone agrees they are, then are their working cash registers also essential? And if they are, then is the NCR office who took the call “essential”? The independent warehouse workers who pulled the part? The driver who delivers the part so the supermarket can actually ring up the supposed essential goods they sell? The tire store who patched his flat tire today so he could make a run to Kokomo, Indiana?

    Anyone who has read, “I, Pencil”, by Leonard E. Read knows quite well what I am posting about.

    1. Maybe they expect us to adopt anarchist style and eliminate the financial side of every transaction. That is, supply all goods and services without charge. So no cash registers.

    2. The #1 thing that scares me about America today is that if you read “I, Pencil” to the average person, they would probably laugh at it, call it stupid, and say “so what?”

      I don’t know if we should embrace left-wing tactics, but libertarians need to hijack the education systems of this country ASAP.

  29. “Wolf deserves credit for backing down a bit from his initial order, and for trying to find that equilibrium, though it may be impossible. ”

    Wolf doesn’t deserve shit. He was the 1st governor to impose draconian measures based on 133 confirmed cases in the state. As to backing down, sure, I’m sure he did it after careful contemplation and not after hundreds of screaming calls from big Dem donors.

    He is not trying to find an equilibrium he’s an authoritarian flexing his muscles, so out of touch with his own state he should be strung up on a lamppost (lampposts are surely “life-sustaining”).

    Oh, and don’t try criticizing him. I added the word “dictator” to an article I posted on Twitter Thursday night about his shutdown and Twitter wouldn’t let me post it. His Twitter feed was hilarious. I expected to see people hopping mad about grinding the state to a halt but instead it was almost completely filled with people bitching that their jobs were NOT being shut down, claiming that nothing they did was essential (who needs their widgets in a worldwide crisis) and asking how they could rat out their employers.

  30. It’s gonna be a hell of an election year. Can’t wait.

  31. There is little to do at this point but hope that our elected and appointed officials can pull the right levers and steer the country and its economy through this.

    One can scarcely imagine a sentiment less congruent with libertarian philosophy. If this publication is not committed to espousing the most basic principles of libertarianism, why does it even exist?

    1. So Hihn has a place to crybully people he hates?

    2. One can scarcely imagine so confused a notion of libertarian philosophy. You describe anarchist-libertarians who are a small percentage of libs.

      1. Dumbfuck Hihnsano claps for fascist “essential/non-essential” lists by government bureaucrats.

  32. One of the saddest things about these shutdowns is that the Federal government had to designate agriculture as essential. Shouldn’t that have been a given? I mean who needs to eat anyhow?

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  36. This is no different than motorcycle helmets or seat belts. The government justifies seizing power because people don’t use their heads. The medical advice was sequester yourselves, stay away from gatherings, slow down the virus. Lots of people ignored the advice, so the government is forcing different behavior. Blame the government or blame the idiots. Your choice.

    1. Simple. It’s the fucking idiots, mostly the alt-right

      1) 100% of America has been exposed to seasonal flu.
      3) COVID-19 is 5-10 times more deadly
      2) Idiots wants COVID-19 to grow from 5% exposure to 100% exposure, as quickly as possible.

      Which is WHY even Trump and Fox have been forced to abandon their crazed disdain for human life.

      1) The PURPOSE of preventive measures is to delay full COVID-19 exposure …. until a vaccine can be developed, which will take 12-18 months … and there is now NO proven cure.

      2) Trump is no struggling, in desperation, to restore his crippled legacy, his two months of lies and denials — the President who originally said the virus is a “Democrat hoax” that would “magically go away.”

      3) Trump has now ENDORSED the most extreme restrictions … activating the National Guard in the worst hit states (CA, NY, WA) … under command of governors … but paid by federal.

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  38. “If everything we do saves just one life, I will be happy,”

    This is the logic Libertarians need to attack first and foremost. Whether you think these statists are evil or not, many of them delude themselves into authoritarian policies by believing they are saving life at any cost. What they do not realize is that their central planning often costs more lives than it saves, but even if authoritarianism had a net benefit to saving lives, it is condescending, un-American, and extremely narcissistic to play the hero and demand other people live as you see fit. Cuomo and others like him need a real-life reminder of what happens when someone from the government makes decisions for you that you cannot oppose.

    Statists are just libertarians who haven’t had their rights violated yet. I sincerely believe they can be convinced to see the error of their ways.

  39. “If everything we do saves just one life, I will be happy,” New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) said Friday, as he announced a new round of restrictions on businesses and individuals.”

    By the same token, if anything you do costs just one life, you should be hanged.

    Simplistic socialist asshole.

    1. If he really meant it he would stop people from driving.

  40. “If everything we do saves just one life, I will be happy,” New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (D) said Friday, as he announced a new round of restrictions on businesses and individuals.”

    Yeah right. Best comment so far I’ve read today.

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  41. This is an exceptionally good read on how the elite are controlling us now and using other scare tactics to control the masses.

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/03/17/the-luxury-of-apocalypticism/

  42. PA governor Wolf, putting it politely, perhaps more so than warranted, went off HALF COCKED. He seems to have backed off, possibly on the basis of some badly needed advice, possibly having taken a cold shower. Either way, his royal decrees were poorly thought out to say the very least. Term limits might not be such a bad thing.

  43. Pandemics like this have historically altered the political and social arrangements of the world. There’s no reason not to expect the same with this one. The U.S. has failed to create the durable structures needed for such a challenge, and now we will face the consequences of that neglect.

  44. Whatever the problem, the overbearing hand of government WILL make it worse.

  45. REALITY TRUMPS HYSTERIA!

    BILL GATES PREDICTED A VIRUS CATASTROPHE …. IN 2015

    “We are not ready for the next epidemic,” said Gates in 2015. (He) mentioned the details about Ebola and stated that “the problem was not that system did not work well enough but the problem was we did not have any system at all.”

    In the Ted Talk titled ‘The next outbreak? We’re not ready’, Bill Gates predicted that the next outbreak would be more devastating than Ebola.

    “The failure to prepare could allow the next epidemic to be dramatically more devastating than Ebola.”

    Gates cited the fact that Ebola did not reach many urban cities or else the results would have been greater. “Next time we might not be so lucky,” His words have somehow predicted the Coronavirus epidemic’s dangers.

    COVID-19 has barely begun … and has ALREADY hit major urban centers, worldwide.

    President Trump deserves praise for reversing two months of delays and denials ,… “It’s a Democrat hoax” … “It will magically disappear.”

    The President now endorses and supports the severe restrictions by governors in CA, NY and WA … He has activated the National Guard in those states … paid by federal .. but under command of the governors. And he’s shut down his new critics, saying he will watch results for 15 days, before any further decisions.

    He’s even considering a special enrollment period for Obamacare, to help uninsured Americans cope with this crisis. (lol)

    Vice President Pence, a former governor and the leader of the federal response to the coronavirus, urged Americans on Monday to respect state and local restrictions that are in many cases tougher than those imposed by the Trump administration.

    “We made it clear to the governors that this president and this administration fully supports decisions that governors are making in communities and states that are particularly impacted by the spread of the coronavirus and we are grateful for their efforts,” Pence said

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