Reason Roundup

We're at the 'Concentration Camp Semantics' Stage of 2019 Now

Plus: crackdown on emotional support animals, the difference between "platforms" and "publishers," and more...

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A concentration camp by any other name…Over the past 24 hours, American media has become embroiled in an intense debate over how to refer to government-run facilities for the detention of Central American migrants seeking refuge here and those caught crossing our southern border without permission. Are they "detention centers" or "concentration camps"? And how much does it really matter what we call them?

In a live video yesterday, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D–N.Y.) said unequivocally that "the U.S. is running concentration camps on our southern border" and that "we need to do something about it."

The term concentration camp technically refers to any "camp in which people are detained or confined, usually under harsh conditions and without regard to legal norms of arrest and imprisonment that are acceptable in a constitutional democracy" (that's from the Holocaust Museum). These days, however, the term evokes only one thing for many Americans: Nazi death camps during the Holocaust.

That's why a lot of folks—including many Democrats—insisted that using "concentration camps" to refer to facilities run by U.S. immigration authorities just muddies the proverbial waters, creating a needlessly charged environment under which we must consider some very serious and real problems. For instance, here's MSNBC host Chris Hayes:

Others opposed to using "concentration camps" clung to the technical differences between the identity-based detention orders that landed German Jews and other minorities in places like Auschwitz, and the infractions resulting in the detention of refugees and undocumented immigrants here.

But some pointed out that the identity/criminality distinction was not, historically, as clear cut as we may see it from our modern vantage point.

"For many Germans, the concentration camps were not seen as part of a program of political and racial terror, but a sensible policy, which sought to deal with the problems of uncontrolled immigration of Jews from the East and with the socially and politically deviant," tweeted historian Ned Richardson-Little.

Others suggested that American has already lost its moral footing when our denial of having concentration camps turned on technicalities.

Those siding with Ocasio-Cortez were far from a homogeneous group politically. In response to Hayes' tweet invoking "Godwin's law"the axiom, coined by lawyer Mike Godwin, that "as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"Godwin himself responded that, no, this wasn't what he was talking about.

In a follow-up tweet, Godwin added: "Stop thinking that if you didn't do all the same things the Nazis did, you didn't really run a concentration camp."

"Yes, 'concentration camps' is accurate," tweeted Washington Post and former Reason staffer Radley Balko with a link to this Esquire story.

Andrea Pitzer, author of One Long Night: A Global History of Concentration Camps, told Esquire: "We have what I would call a concentration camp system, and the definition of that in my book is, mass detention of civilians without trial."

Actor George Takei tweeted: "I know what concentration camps are. I was inside two of them, in America. And yes, we are operating such camps again."

Today The New York Times talks about one of the youngest victims of this system, whatever you call it. At four months old, "Constantin was ultimately the youngest of thousands of children taken from their parents under a policy that was meant to deter families hoping to immigrate to the United States," the Times reports.

The boy's family had come from Romania, seeking asylum from ethnic persecution of Roma there. The dad and boy went first, presenting themselves to border agents who locked the father up and took the boy. More:

In Constantin's case, it would be months before his parents saw him again. Before then, his father would be sent for psychiatric evaluation in a Texas immigration detention center because he couldn't stop crying; his mother would be hospitalized with hypertension from stress. Constantin would become attached to a middle-class American family, having spent the majority of his life in their tri-level house on a tree-lined street in rural Michigan, and then be sent home.

Now more than a year and a half old, the baby still can't walk on his own, and has not spoken.


FREE MINDS

A crackdown on emotional support animals is underway, following a sudden rash of complaints to the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development over alleged housing discrimination by landlords who wouldn't allow pets that owners claimed were medically necessary. HUD has received "more than a thousand similar complaints" so far in 2019, reports The New York Times. More:

The number of people claiming they have a right to live with animals for their mental health — as well as to take them onto planes and into restaurants and stores — has been growing rapidly.

In 2011, the National Service Animal Registry, a for-profit company that sells official-looking vests and certificates for owners, had 2,400 service and emotional support animals in its registry. Now the number is nearly 200,000.

But the spread of such animals — the vast majority of them dogs — has also been met by concerns from landlords, airlines and other businesses that many Americans may be abusing the system. Critics say that pet owners are obtaining phony certifications or letters from online therapists to avoid paying fees or to get permission to bring creatures where they wouldn't normally be allowed.

Now, "more than two dozen state legislatures have enacted new laws to crack down on fraud."


FREE MARKETS

A reminder on the legal distinction between online "platforms" and online "publishers": there is none. At techdirt, Mike Masnick responds to ongoing claims from politicians and press that there is:

So, let's be clear, once again and state that there is no special legal distinction for "platforms," and it makes no difference in the world if an internet company refers to itself as a platform, or a publisher (or, for that matter, an instigator, an enabler, a middleman, a gatekeeper, a forum, or anything). All that matters is do they meet the legal definition of an interactive computer service (which, if they're online, the answer is generally "yes"), and (to be protected under [Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act]) whether there's a legal question about whether or not they're to be held liable for third party content.

Some people may want the law changed. And they may think that "internet platforms" should require some specific rules and regulations — including silly, unenforceable ideas like "being neutral," — but that's got nothing to do with the law today, and any suggestion that it does is simply incorrect.

More here.

And while we're on the subject: Jeff Kosseff, author of The Twenty-Six Words That Created the Internet, and Eric Goldman, a law professor, have curated an awesome archive of case documents related to Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act.

Also, check out James Pethokoukis' post at AEIdeas, the American Enterprise Institute's blog, which implores folks not to "ruin the internet over flukey 'bias' incidents like the recent one on Pinterest." Sound advice!


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  1. A concentration camp by any other name…

    You know who else kept talking about concentration camps?

    1. Hello.

      You’re a buffoon, a clown and a complete fuckhead if you think those are concentration camps. And once again we see a) the ability of people to engage in mental gymnastics to prove a terrible and inaccurate analogy and b) the utter hypocrisy of the left. The anti-war left go silent when their guy is doing the killing and now they’ve found themselves another fake hill to die on with the migrant crisis.

      I musta missed the part where the United States of America was rounding up, enslaving and eventually killing migrants. Are these people not freely attempting to gain entry?

      This is spectacular ignorance on full display here and it’s unacceptable.

    2. FDR?

    3. The Boers?

      1. The Bores?

        1. Them too.

        2. What about The Whores?

          1. I messed that up.

            The Whoars?

            1. The Oars?

    4. everyone else on the internet?

    5. Michelle Malkin?

    6. All those parents who sends their kids away in the summer to lose 100lbs?

    7. Joseph Stalin?

    8. It’s disappointing to see Radley Balko go far left.

  2. …creating a necessarily charged environment under which we must consider some very serious and real problems.

    You know who else didn’t want to keep talking about concentration camps?

    1. Pol Pot?

    2. Anyone with ADD?

  3. …Godwin himself responded that, no, this wasn’t what he was talking about.

    You know who else ended up jumping his very own proverbial shark?

    1. Did he disappear in a puff of logic?

    2. Barry Zuckerkorn?

    3. The Fonz?

    4. Steve Irwin?

    5. Flipper?

  4. I know what concentration camps are. I was inside two of them, in America.

    America, you’re no Jack Kennedy.

    1. We put Sulu in two concentration camps?? And he lived? Holy shit!

      1. People seem to be conflating concentration camps in general and The particularly evil Nazi version.
        The immigration detention camps aren’t concentration camps because the people there are held under normal, civilian law. But the Japanese internment camps were certainly concentration camps. At the time the term had not become associated with the Nazi death camps.

        1. We also dont use them as forced labor. And in general people dont line up to get into concentration camps.

      2. “oh my.”

      3. I believe he was held at Ft. Chaffee in Arkansas for a while. Prez Carter sent Cubans there during the Cuban refugee crises in 1980.
        I think there were about 125,000 refugees and that was enough to overload the system and transfer them to places like Ft. Chaffee.

    2. …yet he supports the party that PUT HIM THERE.

      Odd.

  5. ‘Concentration Camp Semantics’

    at least in Nazi Germany the roundups were always on time

    1. There’s a reason why the religious right in Israel keeps protesting train construction here.

  6. If democrats would run on “every federal government building is a concentration camp and needs to go” I’d vote for that in a heartbeat

    1. Public schools are concentration camps. Fact.

      1. 😀

  7. Today The New York Times talks about one of the youngest victims of this system, whatever you call it.

    Bureaucracy.

    1. Compare what happens at the border to what happens in state child protective services every day. I’m pretty sure far more American children are lost or die in government custody or are separated from their parents for bullshit reasons due to government incompetence and abuse than immigrant children at the border.

  8. I’m fine calling them concentration camps, but unless you are willing to say “Obama built and oversaw concentration camps that housed hundreds of thousands of brown people” then you don’t actually think they are concentration camps and you are a delusional partisan fucking asshole disinterested in the truth.

    1. You can call the sites “concentration camps” if I can call the occupants “invaders”.

  9. A crackdown on emotional support animals is underway…

    Like the America support buffalo, this system is being gamed out of existence.

      1. An ungulate so nice, they named it twice!

    1. No matter how many handicap spots you add, there’s always somebody to fill them. The parking spaces must be creating disabled people. There’s no other possible explanation.

      1. I’m amazed at how fast the handicapped can run when the train is already on the platform.

  10. —“The term concentration camp technically refers to any ‘camp in which people are detained or confined, usually under harsh conditions and without regard to legal norms of arrest and imprisonment that are acceptable in a constitutional democracy'” —

    One thing I know is that from the standpoint of Trumpistas, who fap fap fap at the sight of brown human suffering, these are not ‘concentration camp’ **enough**.

    1. What’s worse, a border concentration camp or a trash-strewn, gang-ridden barrio?

    2. “One thing I know is that from the standpoint of Trumpistas, who fap fap fap at the sight of brown human suffering, these are not ‘concentration camp’ **enough**.”

      One thing I know is that fucking TDS victims can’t tell the truth if it were on the teleprompter.
      Fuck off, asshole. Seek help.

    3. And there is the race card whine.

      1. Always amusing how the “anti” racists are reliably the first to bring up race in any discussion

        1. You see things according to your own filters. They see everything as a race issue. If a white man and a black man teamed together to rob someone, the arrest of the black man would be considered racists to those who see everything as racism.

          1. Just like democrats. First race through the kkk. Then race through eugenics. Then race through bribing them with welfare. Then race through victim based intersectionality. when were democrats not looking through a race based lens?

      2. Didn’t you know that the Roma are brown? 😉

    4. The first use of “concentration camp” was by the British during the 2d Boer War. These were essentially POW camps for civilians, as part of destroying the farms that were the support network and hiding places for the guerillas. The death rate in these camps were high – rather like that in actual POW camps in the American Civil War, and mainly for the same reasons: the governments running the camps were ill-prepared to feed and house so many, nor to maintain sanitation and treat disease outbreaks.

      Most POW’s were shipped to England or other colonies, where it was much easier to supply the POW camps, there were more doctors available, and the death rate was low. Probably due to the dubious legality of imprisoning the civilians at all, the Brits were unwilling to ship them out of the country, so food for the concentration camps had to be shipped overseas, and then hauled across land on the very supply routes that the guerillas were attacking. The food was always short, as was nearly everything else the camps required. But the British never _intended_ to kill civilians.

      By comparison, the Nazis used “concentration camp” as a dishonest euphemism for “forced labor camp” and “death camp”. They _intended_ to kill the prisoners – while extracting a profit by working the stronger to death on inadequate rations. The phrase was a lie, intended to make the camps frightening enough for Germans to fear resisting or opposing Nazi rule, while not _knowing_ enough that resistance became a moral necessity.

      The USSR’s Gulag probably reached similar death rates, by carelessness and neglect rather than planning.

  11. “In a live video yesterday, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D–N.Y.) said unequivocally that “the U.S. is running concentration camps on our southern border”…”

    Yet one more reason to ignore this twit.

    1. AOC is a watermelon.
      Green on the outside, Red on the inside.

  12. As I stated yesterday, AOC is a idiot.

  13. So every jail is now a concentration camp because when arrested people are being held without a trail.

    1. Every refugee camp is a concentration camp, too.

      1. Just the ones where we use the inmates as slave labor and then kill them – – – –

  14. The United Nations says there is “credible evidence” that Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman played a role in the death of journalist Jamal Khashoggi and should be investigated.

    The UN is as corrupt an entity as you can find. But no duh.

    1. It was the Russians.

    2. Did I tell you guys about the time I inserted a 10 foot metal pole into some Turkish real estate?

    3. Why am I supposed to be upset that a Muslim Brotherhood apologist got killed by rivals?

      1. Yes, you suppose to be more upset about that than some US citizens being murdered at an embassy.

        1. I don’t give a shit. His death did not impact me one iota.

          1. You didn’t catch the sarcasm?

  15. Sometimes it is hard to tell whether an argument is honest or productive or if it is honestly motivated. Other times it isn’t all that hard.

    When everyone who is on one side of an issue is a hardcore leftist and everyone who is on the other side of an issue is not, I think you have your answer.

    There is a lot to find interesting about this discussion over immigration. The left has been trying to use language to reframe the debate as good versus evil. This is bog-standard for them.

    The most ridiculous example of this is the repeated assertion that Trump is separating families. When this first started, it was widely reported that this was an obama-era policy that was the result of a Court ruling. The federal government is required to separate the children from the families while they are being held. This was a decision made by a judge, not by Donald Trump, and it did not even happen during the Trump Administration.

    Now we are arguing over the words “concentration camp”. Because if we can call them concentration camps then the debate is over. Anyone supporting that is by definition evil.

    But short of passing a complete open borders policy, exactly what does anyone expect the government to do? Is there even one person here who seriously believes that any of those leftist activist Twitter denizens or CNN commentators would suddenly be on Trump’s side if he opened the borders to all illegal immigrants and released all illegal immigrants?

    And exactly what would these folks have these illegal immigrants do if they were all released? It is illegal to hire them. They cannot work. So exactly how are they supposed to survive here? The only possible answer for this large number of people is for them to work illegally.

    When there are millions of illegal immigrants entering the country over a sustained number of years, as we have been experiencing for the last decade or more, there are not going to be any easy answers.

    1. When everyone who is on one side of an issue is a hardcore leftist and everyone who is on the other side of an issue is not, I think you have your answer.

      Interesting framing. On one side, we have hardcore leftists. On the other side? No hardcore leftists. Just reasonable folk trying to keep fanaticism at bay. Mmmkay.

      1. Sometimes it is hard to tell whether an argument is honest or productive or if it is honestly motivated. Other times it isn’t all that hard.

    2. And exactly what would these folks have these illegal immigrants do if they were all released?

      Well, a lot of “these folks” seem to think they make excellent nannies.

      1. Well, a lot of “these folks” seem to think they make excellent nannies slave labor.

      2. Yet get pissy when it is discussed “Hey, maybe we should release them where YOU live”

        People love to virtue signal when they have no skin in the game.

        1. I wish Trump would go back to busing migrants to democrat strongholds. That was amusing as hell

    3. When everyone who is on one side of an issue is a hardcore leftist and everyone who is on the other side of an issue is not, I think you have your answer.

      There are libertarians who, shockingly, believe that government has no legitimate role in handing out permission slips for travel, work, freedom of association. It seems not everyone on that side of the issue is a leftist, but you do you.

      I’ll echo what I said on this topic yesterday. References to “concentration camps” or “Kristallnacht” are inaccurate and I think harmful to the cause of freedom. They are devisive (at best) and tend to shut down conversation. In other words, I don’t support their use in this case.

      1. There are libertarians who, shockingly, believe that government has no legitimate role in handing out permission slips for travel, work, freedom of association. It seems not everyone on that side of the issue is a leftist, but you do you.

        Sure there are. But God damn own that and stop lying and pretending that you are for anything but total open borders. Time and again you fuckers claim “no one is really for open borders” only to turn around and say things like this that show that you do.

        If the government can’t control the borders, then everyone gets in even if they are here to do harm or to take welfare and no matter how much harm their presence causes to the people already here. That is your position. Be honsest enough to own it. Every time someone is killed or harmed by an alien, they are just eggs in the big transgendered, gay, libertarian pot brownie Libertarians are making for America. But it is not a Utopian ideology or anything. You just want a transnational revolution and one world system of government.

        1. OK, and how about you acknowledge that it’s possible to believe that open borders is the ideal in a better world and also to understand that it is a practical impossibility in the world that exists?
          No one is lying. What reason would there be to lie about it? It’s people with strong (perhaps somewhat Utopian) beliefs seeking a practical compromise position.

          1. ” it is a practical impossibility in the world that exists”

            Negotiate with people who seek impossible outcomes? Sounds like a great way to spend time.

          2. It’s not necessarily a lie. More often than not it’s a product of an illogical mind. That makes discussing the subject mostly a waste of time when they’re people like ChemJeff that believe that immigrants have a right to be in U.S. Federal Prison as a matter of natural law.

            Ignorance is strength, indeed.

          3. You can be just as naive as the dumbass communist kids you laugh at. Sure.

        2. But they’re going to do internationalist communism right this time!

        3. If the government can’t control the borders, then everyone gets in even if they are here to do harm or to take welfare and no matter how much harm their presence causes to the people already here.
          The government currently can’t control the borders even though they have countless laws. Otherwise, why do we have a #NationalEmergency? Maybe you should step back and look at the issue from the perspective that laws and border enforcement aren’t effective today. Do you really think the solution is more laws and more enforcement?

          I’m not an absolutist on borders, even though you paint me as one. There is a middle ground between allowing everyone to come here unimpeded and severely restricting work visas to a centrally-planned quota system. If you can’t acknowledge that there is room in the middle of those two positions, then talking about this is a waste of time.

          Government has a legitimate function to keep out people who would do harm to the country. (I even bolded it so that hopefully you’ll read what I’m actually saying this time.) Even Trump would admit that isn’t every single immigrant. As I’ve pointed out, our current system of limiting people who simply want to come here and work has created an undue burden on the border patrol in which they can’t effectively provide security against the slim minority of immigrants who would do us harm.

          Your preferred system of prohibition is part of the reason we have a “crisis” at the border today. Just like the extreme prohibition of illicit drugs has caused more harm than good.

          You just want a transnational revolution and one world system of government.
          LOL, this is what John does best. Building up and tearing down strawmen.

          1. “in which they can’t effectively provide security against the slim minority of immigrants who would do us harm.”

            There’s your problem right there. It’s not about single instances of harm, it’s about millions upon millions of people crossing in a short period of time. Why allow such unstable migration to the detriment of citizens? Which millionth plus immigrant would be the straw that broke our backs? You think your family will enjoy the chaos of millions of poor people with no where to live roaming about your neighborhood? Grow up Peter Pan

            1. Then why doesn’t your side come out and say what it really means? We don’t want non-American poor people in our neighborhoods. Why hide behind “border security?”

              1. Dont give a shit if they are american or non american. Goal is to have people provide for themselves to do the least amount of harm in general. Increasing the level of poor is stupid and ignorant no matter the country of origin including the united states.

                Now can you be honest in argumentation on this topic or you going to keep with the “you’re racist” implications?

          2. Leo, now use your argument on why bothering to make murder illegal. Watch how quickly you realize the naivete of your statements.

            1. Murder is clearly a violation of the vitcim’s right to life. Use of force is justified.

              Who is the victim of immigration? And before you say society (ie the collective), consider that this is also Bernie Sanders’s argument against immigration.

              You’re advocating to use the full force of government to stop someone from potentially mooching off of some other government construct of collectivism. More government!

              1. Who is the victim of immigration?

                No one is the victim of immigration.

                I am the victim of illegal immigration.

                There’s a big difference. It’s a very revealing tell that ALL of you endlessly try to make this about immigration when it’s about people breaking into my country.

                1. The welfare state is a direct affront to my liberty.

                  Every person that enters this country and adds to that burden is an additional injury to me.

      2. We call those people naive.

    4. “But short of passing a complete open borders policy, exactly what does anyone expect the government to do?”

      Give them 40 acres and a mule?

    5. Yes, the goal here seems to be to achieve an open borders policy by default by making practical enforcement of any restrictions beyond the pale. It is a dishonest approach, that appeals to emotion over reason.

      And whatever Trump has said to justify the separation policy, it was originally implemented for human trafficking concerns. Also, concentration camps are usually forced detentions of people who are already legal residents for extraordinary reasons, not part of attempting to put some order in a standard legal process for people who are not residents.

      1. No one is really talking about open boarders. They want to give people coming across the southern border travel rights that don’t exist for Americans. I haven’t heard anyone complain about Americans having a right to cross into Mexico.

        1. Well, yes they do not really care if any other countries borders are open or not.

      2. And whatever Trump has said to justify the separation policy, it was originally implemented for human trafficking concerns.

        Trump’s version of family separation policy had nothing to do with “human trafficking concerns”. It was explicitly a policy of deterrence. To separate children from their parents *in order to send a message*, regardless of whether the kids were suspected of being trafficked or not.

        1. That does not change that the policy prexisted the Trump Administration.

        2. You say stupid shit. We literally have reports on the rates of non familial children/crossers fucktard Jeff.

  16. You know it’s bad when they won’t tell you what a bill does other than “give U.S. law enforcement the tools it needs.”

    We have to pass it to find out how we can use it to fuck you all the way over.

  17. Critics say that pet owners are obtaining phony certifications or letters from online therapists to avoid paying fees or to get permission to bring creatures where they wouldn’t normally be allowed.

    Critics say that anyone who “needs” to bring creatures where they wouldn’t normally be allowed should probably be institutionalized.

    1. I see you’ve stopped inviting Crusty over?

      1. Hey! It’s a mutual understanding!

  18. Using antitrust law to break up “Big Tech” is a “20th century solution to 21st century problems,” said 2020 Democratic presidential candidate Andrew Yang.

    Buying votes, however, never goes out of style.

  19. Every Elementary School is a Concentration Camp. They separate kids from their parents, the kids are not free to leave and those claiming to be parents are not free to walk in and free their children without rigorous background checks, and it is all built on age-based discrimination. And it lasts longer than 20 days

    1. Hell yeah.

      1. There has never been an escape from stalag , I mean PS 13.

  20. What the hell? Where is my comment about Sarwark’s latest insane tweetstorm? I already closed that tab. I ain’t looking for it again.

  21. So Godwin himself goes Godwin, and what little chance there was for sensible discussion disappears.

    1. Excellent take, succinctly offered.

    2. Doesn’t Godwin automatically Godwin every discussion he tries to have?

    3. That’s mind boggling. Yes, it is accurate what happened in Germany but to correlate it to this issue? Wow.

      That’s some looooonnnnngggggg dubious stretch.

      I despise these people. Moral degenerates. Like bio-ethicists.

      This absolutely is about Trump. Not virtue or empathy or anything.

      Hayes is being the sensible one here.

      And where’s John anyway?

      1. I didn’t see Jews FLOCKING to Germany to be put in the camps.

        Maybe there is a part in history I’m unaware of where Jewish folks were streaming into Germany in massive numbers to be put in camps.

        1. Mexicans aren’t coming to the US for the holding camps though

          1. Jews weren’t going to Germany PERIOD.

            And if 100,000 demand asylum and we can only listen to a fraction of the cases at a time…what would YOU do with the others?

            1. I’m not arguing that they aren’t necessary. But I am saying that they are holding people against their will.

              1. “”But I am saying that they are holding people against their will.”‘

                Are you not allowed to leave if you agree to return home?

                Many are being held because they want an asylum hearing for a country which they have chosen to migrate. They are being held because of their will to migrate coupled with a choking of the system due to volume.

                They come to America, America does not come to them and that’s a big difference between Nazi Germany and the US. It wasn’t just German Jews being murdered in those camps.

                1. I am not equating these camps to Holocaust concentration camps. But it’s pretty easy for us to say that these people should just return to whatever poor Central American country they came from when we live in a comparable paradise. I will take the no-good-solution position on this one.

                  1. It’s not our job to fix Central America’s problem. I don’t want to nation build internationally…nor do I wish to import their problems here.

                  2. It’s pretty easy to say if you want to come please respect our laws. This is not horrible position to have. What country doesn’t want you to respect their laws when you arrive?

                    1. Are you sure that immigrants bring crime or have you been listening to too much R propaganda

                    2. “”Are you sure that immigrants bring crime”‘

                      I didn’t say they were bringing crime. But if you cross the border of a country illegally you are committing a crime.

                      Are you sure you are not listening to too much L propaganda which made you assume I was?

                    3. “[I]f you want to come please respect our laws.” That line just sounds too GOP for me to accept. Our legal immigration system isn’t the most efficient machine. Again, I don’t know where I stand on this issue but I’m definitely not on the build-the-wall wagon.

                    4. <“[I]f you want to come please respect our laws.” That line just sounds too GOP for me to accept.

                      GOP?

                      Every country says it to everyone who crosses their borders–be it to migrate, to vacation, or to just pass through.

                      Why do you find the simple act of asking someone who wants to enter your country to obey the laws of said country to be problematic?

                      What’s GOP about expecting people to comply with the fact that we drive on the right?

              2. No, they are not. They are free to leave. Just not into the USA.

                If they wish to return home…the door is wide open and they are more than welcome to do so.

                1. Why don’t you fuck off to Venezuela and then we’ll talk

                  1. He would need a passport to go there. Do you think Venezuela would let him just walk in?

                    1. I don’t think they get many visitors these days.

                  2. I don’t come from Venezuela nor am I demanding that they allow me into Venezuela. I’m not sure where you got your Ph.D in idiotic analogies, but you certainly deserved it.

  22. As to the term concentration camp, it is completely inapplicable in the situation. It is unquestionably a camp of sorts. But the “concentration” modifier implies that you were taking a dispersed subgroup of the population and concentrating them in one location.

    This debate is in reference to Asylum Seekers. They are not dispersed throughout the population, but are crossing the border and being detained while their status is determined. In many cases, such people are evaluated and released with vouchers and social worker support. Unfortunately, experience shows that the vast majority never show up for their Asylum hearing.

    So again, exactly what would you do? You are not going to get an open borders law from either the Democrats or the Republicans. So do you really advocate continuing the status quo of allowing illegal immigration with a wink-and-a-nod so that we can have an underclass of people who are not allowed to work? And easily exploitable population for low-wage jobs?

    1. I love how ignoramus illiberal are EDUCATED us who are literate what the term ‘concentration camps’ are and in the case of that twat telling us how it’s different from a ‘death camp.’ Fuck right off you stupid tart. I bet you she never read a single book on the issue.

    2. I think you need to call them alleged asylum seekers, if their status is yet to be determined.

      1. They are still seeking that status. I’m pretty sure that makes them “asylum seekers”.

  23. Katharine Gorka, wife of loony-tunes ex-Trump official Sebastian Gorka, “is expected to be the new press secretary at Customs and Border Protection,” according to CNN Politics.

    Government spox has always been one of the most irrelevant jobs in existence.

  24. AOC: “This one time, at concentration camp, …”

    1. “Anyone who took me literally is an idiot!”

      Of course she didn’t *mean* the world was going to end in 12 years!

      1. I think she was taken, literally, by a large number of men. And most were probably idiots…

        1. With those big teeth, I would be safer to take her from behind.

    2. AOC does have a rusty trombone for a mouth.

  25. If the Jews or Boers could have just walked out, then the camps would not have been so bad. Any illegal immigrant inside the camp has the option of going back across the border from whence he came.
    I have found that, if I want good lodgings, it is prudent to call ahead.

  26. There are two aspects to the Holocaust comparisons. The purpose is not just to attack Trump but to also engage in a less crude form of Holocaust denial. When you compare the Holocaust to something that doesn’t involve the murder of millions of people it doesn’t just make the thing you are comparing it to look worse. It also makes the Holocaust look better than it actually was. And that is different only in degree but not in kind from saying it never happened at all.

    Now AOC is just an idiot. I don’t think she had anything in mind other than emoting the usual “Republicans are Nazis” talking points. But others on the left like Omar know exactly what they are saying and doing here.

    1. I think the main point is to “start a dialogue” that creates an association in people’s minds between Trump and the Nazis.

      The best thing we can do with this shit is ignore it.

    2. I for one never understood why so many Jewish Americans latched on to Socialists that mostly make up the Democrat Party.

  27. Funny how they ignored all this a few years ago when it was politically expedient to do so.

    And if they win the white house again they will go on ignoring it.

    But when you care more about migrants than your own citizens do not be surprised when your citizens vote you out of office.

    1. They don’t about the migrants, they care about the power they get by moral grandstanding over the migrants

  28. The irony is it’s the political positions of people like MxMarximus Illiteratus and Grandpa Gulag that lead to REAL death camps.

    Anyway…

    “Buchenwald was one of the first and the largest of the concentration camps within Germany’s 1937 borders. Many actual or suspected communists were among the first internees.
    Prisoners from all over Europe and the Soviet Union—Jews, Poles and other Slavs, the mentally ill and physically disabled, political prisoners, Romani people, Freemasons, criminals, homosexuals, and prisoners of war—worked primarily as forced labor in local armaments factories. The insufficient food and poor conditions, as well as deliberate executions, led to 56,000 deaths at Buchenwald of the 250,000 prisoners who passed through the camp. The camp gained notoriety when it was liberated by the United States Army in 1945; Allied commander Dwight D. Eisenhower visited one of its subcamps.

    From 1945 to 1950, the camp was used by the Soviet occupation authorities as an internment camp, NKVD special camp Nr. 2. Between August 1945 and the dissolution on March 1, 1950, 28,455 prisoners, including 1,000 women, were held by the Soviet Union at Buchenwald. A total of 7,113 people died in Special Camp Number 2, according to the Soviet records. They were buried in mass graves in the woods surrounding the camp. Their relatives did not receive any notification of their deaths.”
    .

    1. Many actual or suspected communists were among the first internees.

      Now there is an idea I can get behind!

    2. Hell, to make it sadder, you had a much higher chance of surviving as a Communist if you were in Nazi Germany than in the USSR. They was for the entire war, mind you.

  29. Someone needs to tell AOC that the detention centers are Gulags. Send the immigrants out to dig canals, build subways, and do other work for the people. Do that and AOC would be the biggest supporter of ICE in Congress

    1. Why are so few willing to say the dirty truth?

      The Democrats do not have a problem with the Holocaust. They feel that we have done “enough” for the Jews and that the Jews now “owe” them.

  30. You know it’s bad when they won’t tell you what a bill does other than “give U.S. law enforcement the tools it needs.”

    A summary is in progress.

  31. The “concentration camps” remark looks to me like just part of the larger Democrat scheme for winning in 2020: Trump is Hitler, anybody who votes for him is a fascist, they’ve already turned us into The Handmaid’s Tale, etc.

    Looking at their list of prospective nominees, I can see why they would be eager to change the subject.

  32. AOC’s spiritual ancestor FDR started up and ran concentration camps for Japanese-Americans (including native born ones), and more recently Central Americans were being caged up in the very same camps she’s complaining about during the reign of Trump’s predecessor and AOC’s buddy, so she and her party should know all about this kind of stuff.

  33. Ocasio-Cortez (D–N.Y.) said unequivocally that “the U.S. is running concentration camps on our southern border” and that “we need to do something about it.”

    Something like recalling Ocasio-Cortez?

  34. But the emotional cripples need their support beagles or weasels or wombats, and they love them. So of course they can take them everywhere. And they should be allowed to marry them. And then, the animals should be given the vote. And…

  35. To make sure they caught the next mass shooter before he (or she) could act, Harris County Texas started going after students who made threats against the school.

    “Under Mr. Jordan, Harris County charged an unprecedented 216 students in the three months following the Feb. 14, 2018, Parkland shooting, including many with felonies. But when Mr. Jordan examined the cases last summer, he found that nearly 90% involved first-time offenders. More than half were 12-, 13- or 14-year-olds.”

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/afraid-of-missing-the-next-school-shooter-one-prosecutor-charged-216-kids-now-hes-rethinking-11560936602?

    1. People thought that was ridiculous, so they revamped the system:

      “During the 2018-2019 school year, Harris County charged only 112 students for threats against schools, he said, and a smaller percentage were felonies than last year.

      “We’re not going to just charge kids for being idiots,” Mr. Jordan said of the new approach.”

      —-Ibidem

      What an improvement!!? I don’t suppose anyone should charge Harris County for being idiots, but if that were a crime, surely Harris Country would be a likely candidate for an indictment.

      IF IF IF kids who feel bullied by the system are more likely to go ballistic, then is Harris County’s program actually increasingly the likelihood of a mass shooting?

      Given the remote likelihood of a mass shooting occurring in Harris County, I’d be willing to wager that the chances of being sent to juvenile hall because of Harris County’s efforts are higher than the chances that Harris County will save any kid from a mass shooting.

      1. The beatings will continue until morale improves.

      2. How about these kids simply do not make threats?

        1. Arrest Bruce Springsteen for the lyrics to “growing up”!

  36. >>>the term evokes only one thing

    this.

  37. I blame the media for refusing to publicize the Democrat’s well thought out and comprehensive detailed plan for solving the immigration crisis. Maybe one or more of the 20 presidential candidates can spend his or her 30 seconds during the debate to lay it out for us?

    1. The Democrats’ comprehensive immigration plan seems pretty clear to me:

      1) Let them all in.
      2) Give them all welfare.
      3) Register them all to vote.

      1. Yup. This is Democrat Plan A.

    2. But first lemme pull a rabbit out of my ass!

      /Bullwinkle voice.

      We all know they’ll do no such thing. They’ll just play the ‘OMG immoral gulags Orange Man Bad REEEEEE!’ game.

    3. What’s funny is that the way to get the dems to shut up about the issues is to elect a dem president, not to actually solve the problem.

      They didn’t care that Obama was deporting people in large numbers, separating kids, and whatnot.

      1. This is how I feel about Obamacare and reducing the deficit

        1. I found it funny when people who claimed to like Obamacare complained about not having insurance. Reminding them that Obamacare required them to buy a plan by law, and they were not in compliance with the law would get you an evil look.

  38. Capitalist “concentration” camp = food + water + medical treatment + legal representation + better conditions than where they came from + result of voluntary travel + separated from family (illegal immigrants only).

    Socialist concentration camp = starvation + inhumane living conditions + forced labor until dead + torture + driven out of home + involuntary travel + separated from family.

    Gee, you would think that someone who identifies as a socialist would try not to bring up topics that have such associations.

    1. The TDS tears hitting the keyboards of most reason staff makes it hard to write coherent thoughts down.

  39. “And how much does it really matter what we call them?”

    A lot apparently, because words mean things. It seems quite important to some people that we call them concentration camps, so there must be some value in that term.

    1. Fun parlor game. I’ll play: No, it doesn’t matter what we call them, so I’m going to call them High End Vacation Resorts.

  40. That’s why a lot of folks—including many Democrats—insisted that using “concentration camps” to refer to facilities run by U.S. immigration authorities just muddies the proverbial waters, creating a needlessly charged environment under which we must consider some very serious and real problems

    It shows that anyone who calls ICE Detention Centers “Concentration Camps” are lying morons.

    Illegal immigrants can leave Detention Centers anytime they want by simply saying they will self-deport.

    Nobody was getting out of a concentration camp until until the Socialists wanted you out. Death camps, hardly anyone got out.

  41. In a live video yesterday, Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D–N.Y.) said unequivocally that “the U.S. is running concentration camps on our southern border” and that “we need to do something about it.”

    How does she feel about Hebron?

  42. Andrea Pitzer, author of One Long Night: A Global History of Concentration Camps, told Esquire: “We have what I would call a concentration camp system, and the definition of that in my book is, mass detention of civilians without trial.”

    Umm … at what point does a tourist become a civilian who cannot be deported or arrested for overstaying his visa?

    In related news, I decided to live in Israel for at least 6 years, because it took so fucking long for the government to buy me a ticket back home that I met a guy.

  43. This idiocy is why we need a wall.

    You will not give us a border. You refuse to do so. So, we demand a wall.

    If you worked WITH us, we’d have never demanded a wall. But you decided to fuck us over. Repeatedly.

    Sorry if lessons were learned.

  44. Concentration Camps (FDR’s)
    Not sure younger folks know this shameful story. FDR used “concentration camps” to describe the Japanese “Internment camps” during WWII..

    They rounded up 120,000 Japanese- Americans after Pearl Harbor, half were children. The camps held them for four years. I think “prison camps” is most accurate. They were military captures with no trials, Their assets were seized, homes abandoned. Many died from inadequate health care. Most were citizens. All were legal residents.

    If this fits your historic interest, PBS has a great web site from a very detailed special they ran. “Children of the Camps”
    http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/index.html

    I tell all this for the punchline. Congress passed a bill, in 1988, which paid $20,000 reparations to each survivor, with an apology signed by President Clinton — and THAT is the kicker — for your FDR file.

    Excerpt from Clinton’s apology. He’s speaking of FDR.

    “In retrospect, we understand that the nation’s actions were rooted deeply on racial prejudice, wartime hysteria and a lack of political leadership,

    Later investigations established that FDR’s administration had evidence of no connections to Japan. A Japanese-American I know saidm strongly, that Japanese-Americans at that time hated Japan’s government, for oppression of their relative back homes.

    I think we can call that Clinton’s letter a kick in the balls to FDR!

    1. …except AOC PRAISES FDR’s humanity. Quite publicly.

      1. That’s why I paste that in at various times, when it applies!
        I crapped my pants at Clinton’s letter and almost. missed it. They have a screen shot of he actual letter, but the link is not as conspicuous as I’d like.

        Visiting the site shows brutally detailed reporting on the atrocities … on PBS. When they knock one out of the park, it’s a grand slam,.

    2. My favorite part: nobody ever discusses the fact that Woodrow Wilson ordered a “papiere, bitte” policy on 250,000 German-Americans and FDR interned 11,000+ German-Americans during WWII…

      Italian Americans were also interned during WWII, but it appears to be less than 1,000. (Still heinous).

      But hey, none of that’s important because Germans and Italians aren’t “the right type” of people to be concerned about…at least not politicially…

      1. Thanks for the reminder. The Italian one was especially heinous, since my own German extraction was ignored. But it was FDR who refused a boatload(s?) of Jews fleeing Germany, who wound up back in Germany. (Nobody would take them)

        I’ve often thought that the western nations who established Israel, did it at least partly in guilt.

      2. FDR interned 11,000+ German-Americans during WWII – out of millions. Similarly, a tiny percentage of Italian-Americans were interned. They may not have received fair hearings, but there was some _individual_ evidence that these people had responded to Hitler’s and Mussolini’s attempts to recruit these ethnic groups as spies and saboteurs, and a number of actual incidents of sabotage. (Innocent family members were also _voluntarily_ interned sometimes, when wives chose to go with their husbands and parents chose to bring their children along.)

        Contrast this with the internment of _all_ Japanese-Americans living within certain states. Not only was individual evidence not considered, but there was no evidence even against the group; not even _one_ Japanese-American from the west coast was a spy or saboteur.

  45. The salient difference between these detention centers and concentration camps is that people are, of their own voluntary initiative, traveling hundreds of miles on foot to get into them, and at any point may choose to go back to their homes rather than remain in them.

  46. “”For many Germans, the concentration camps were not seen as part of a program of political and racial terror, but a sensible policy, which sought to deal with the problems of uncontrolled immigration of Jews from the East…”

    Seriously?
    I’m sure that there were millions of Eastern European Jews clamoring to immigrate in Germany after 1933, it being such a welcoming environment for them.

    I seem to recall that the “problem” was not “uncontrolled immigration of Jews from the East,” but uncontrolled expansion of Germany into the East.

    1. “”“”For many Germans, the concentration camps were not seen as part of a program …””

      IIRC, they were not seen at all. The camps were secret.

  47. Would the guy holding the sign be willing to share his room at his parent’s house to accommodate some immigrants?

    1. Or how much would he whine if his parents decided to make him share his room with some immigrants.

  48. Heck, let’s describe everything as a concentration camp – apartment complexes, college dorms, Buddhist retreats (they camp out and work on their concentration, don’t they?).

  49. By the way, why all the hate over an old Indian religious symbol? I mean, when you consider it in proper context blah blah blah…

  50. Question: Can the people in the detention or “concentration “camps , drop their claims for asylum , leave the camps in order to return to their home countries? It seems as if they could since the purpose of having them in the camps is that they are waiting for a trial on the issue of whether they should be granted asylum status and granted entry to the US. If they have that right to leave under certain conditions , then it is really out of line to call these concentration camps or prisons since it is the asylum seekers’ decision to stay

    1. They can.

    2. Consider that despite all the horrors of slavery, some people think having to work a job to pay bills is slavery.

  51. If George Takei’s family got gassed, I wonder if he would still say ignorant shit like that. Creating facilities to keep illegal immigrants detained during their bullshit asylum claims is a perfectly logical response. There isn’t any comparison to what the Nazis did and fuck him for using his victim status. Internment camps weren’t concentration camps. We did not ethnically cleanse the Japanese.

    1. Sorry, he’s correct.
      https://www.britannica.com/topic/concentration-camp
      Concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security, exploitation, or punishment, usually by executive decree or military order. Persons are placed in such camps often on the basis of identification with a particular ethnic or political group rather than as individuals and without benefit either of indictment or fair trial.

  52. These facilities are not new. Obama was putting people in these concentration camps too. The next democrat president will continue to use these camps. If you want to call them that. That’s one of many reasons I find this ridiculous. It’s camps when Trump does it, but not when Obama does it. These facilities were paid for by congressional authorization. Probably by bipartisan vote.

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