Drug War Ringer Pushes Johnson to Explain Reality of Prohibition at Town Hall
Were the Libertarian Party's representatives prepared for the most obvious question?


Libertarians: They sure love them drugs, amirite?
When CNN announced a town hall for Gary Johnson and William Weld, Libertarian Party candidates for president and vice president, it was immediately obvious that drug war decriminalization or legalization was going to be the source of at least one question. If people know only one thing about the libertarians, it's generally that they want to legalize weed.
When the question came tonight, it came out of the mouth of drug warrior ringer Maureen Morella. Morella is the mother of a young man who nearly died and is now disabled as a result of a bad reaction to heroin in 2004. She is now an activist traveling the country warning about the dangerous of heroin. Her question was framed under the impression that Johnson was in favor of legalizing all drugs, including heroin, and wondered how would deal with all of the awful things that drugs do to kids.
Johnson and Weld both corrected that they were interested in legalizing marijuana, not all drugs. They were put in a difficult position, of course, of not wanting to dismiss this family's real-world experience. But the reality is that drug war prohibition helped harm her son and that's exactly what Johnson said. Her story can be read here at The New York Times and even though Johnson seemed a bit ambushed when he was formulating his response, the facts seem to validate Johnson. Her son had a toxic reaction because other chemicals had been mixed into the heroin. The dangerous lack of quality control and safety is something that happens in a black market.
He wasn't the most articulate speaker about a question he must have known was coming, but he did provide examples of how Zurich, Switzerland, and Vancouver have public health programs designed to make sure what happened to Jesse Morella doesn't happen to others and emphasized that they were successful. "No more heroin deaths," he explained. "You wouldn't die of an overdose." Both Johnson and Weld promoted needle exchange programs as a tool of public health protection.
Johnson brought the issue back to marijuana, treating its use as something that should be categorized the same as alcohol, and concluding, "I think others should live their lives the way they see fit. Make your choices as long as you don't do harm to others."
Toward the end, they were asked a question about their attitudes toward Black Lives Matter, and it didn't really go too well. First of all, revoltingly, the question was framed with the idea that libertarians "don't care" about the Black Lives Matter movement, and at one point, host Chris Cuomo repeated this completely inaccurate characterization of libertarian attitudes as a fact. Weld, who had been pretty articulate in presenting facts throughout the town hall, went on a strange tangent about having various "commissions" to discuss the needs and interests by different ethnic groups when he was governor of Massachusetts. Johnson brought it back to discussing how the drug war had victimized minorities. They could have done a better job at challenging the idea that libertarians didn't care about the Black Lives Matter movement and highlighted the libertarian role in pushing for criminal justice reform.
Regardless of whether Johnson and Weld put for the best arguments for the Libertarian Party, their inclusion on CNN is definitely giving the party more attention and interest. Even as the Democratic gun control "sit in" is dominating the news, Gary Johnson and the Libertarian Party have ranked as high as third in Google's top trending searches this evening and #LibertarianTownHall is trending on Twitter.
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"Regardless of whether Johnson and Weld put for the best arguments for the Libertarian Party, their inclusion on CNN is definitely giving the party more attention and interest"
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Johnson and Weld both corrected that they were interested in legalizing marijuana, not all drugs.
"Nah, it's cool lady, you're confusing us with real libertarians."
It's really not their job to be 'real' libertarians. Their pols. They play in the Overton Window and maybe push it around. The fact that the LP doesn't even understand what the difference between a party and a movement is, and acts like the latter while trying to be the former, is why it's useless.
The LP should become a less doctrinaire politically party, like they have in Costa Rica.
*they're
Go choke on Bloomberg's nuts you brainless chunk of shit.
Another yokeltarian driven up the wall by a superior intellect. Cyto-rekt
You wouldn't know a libertarian if it came 'round your mom's trailer mad off the reefer and fucked you up the ass until you were gay married.
Stay mad yokelbro.
Stay brainless. Don't forget to vote Trudeau for Canada's libertarian future.
There may be an ointment available for that hurting but of yours.
Sounds like he's got chronic butthurt and mistakenly grabbed the Icy Hot instead of his ointment.
The costa rica party is christian fundamentalist and has nothing to do with libertarianism.
I would've told the mother she's a lousy mom for letting her son get into heroin in the first place.
Funny, I've never been elected to public office.
I would have pointed out that Clorox is perfectly legal, yet we don't see people drinking Clorox to off themselves (for the most part; I suppose there are a few suicides by drinking bleach. Or antifreeze.)
Honestly - every Libertarian candidate out there should be prepared to deal with the generic 'I'm emotional about issue X and therefore government should DO something' question. The issue itself doesn't matter one bit. What does matter is the notion that emotion should drive policy and it is pervasive. And since emotion makes for good TV, the media will always keep that going.
Tell her that if the kid had instead been shot in the head by the DEA raiding the wrong address, his condition would be a regrettable but necessary sacrifice for the greater good.
I'd rather have a couple of Republicans who push the country in more libertarian direction than Clinton or Trump. Libertarian Puritanism isn't going to get us anywhere.
Why vote for the libertarian party if they aren't actually libertarian? The purism is exactly what I value about the LP. I have zero interest in voting for another centrist.
Then vote for the down-ballot candidates for House, Senate and Governor. I am voting for the party platform, not some politician, and definitely not any nationalsocialist platform.
It was a dumpster fire. I'm beginning to think that Johnson is only in this for fame/wealth/fun and not actually advancing libertarianism. Weld was more impressive but not by much. It's clear that Johnson has not even been doing much "debate prep" ? for years it seems.
Still, I'll be voting for the LP ticket because fuck the Dems and Repubs. CNN is just an arm of the DNC anyway.
"It was a dumpster fire. I'm beginning to think that Johnson is only in this for fame/wealth/fun and not actually advancing libertarianism."
That has been crystal clear since he idiotically chose not to become a senator so he could play pretend with the LP.
Agreed.
He was decent in 2012. I'd argue that he's put in far less effort in this election and frankly it shows. I've been very unimpressed with Johnson, who's been the epitome of what Trump would call "low energy".
Wow, who could have ever predicted that?
Did anonbot steal Hyperion's handle?
That would make his comments a lot more intelligent.
You are up way past your bedtime and I have it on good authority that your mom is on her way home right now.
Yeah she is.
*High five*
I AM going to bed too late as of recent. Points given.
Why is my mom working late with you? Are you a trainee? Sucks to be you.
Sadly, there's no cure for stupidity so you're pretty well fucked.
That was supposed to go up here, but close enough.
I can't wait for CNN to include the maimed victim of an errant Obama drone bomb to grill Clinton and Donald on why they want to keep doing that.
Emotional appeal: not just for statists!
Fuck you. Emotional appeals are valid. I want to appeal to the outrage and indignation of dipshits when I unleash two barrels of scorn and contempt on their vapid ideologies.
Valid? For what? GMSF gave the better answer.
For unleashing... you know what? Scroll up.
Just pointing out an obvious double standard in media coverage.
Fair enough.
"Regrettable but necessary sacrifice" would make it all better... Comforting lies sell better than truth.
Seriously, all you needed was the civil rights act and it was every topic all authoritarians throw at libertarians.. the fact he sucked so bad shows he isn't a libertarian. I thought the fiscally conservative socially liberal thing was just a hook. But, no, he doesn't even understand libertarianism.
Face it, GayJay just ain't that bright. There can be stupid libertarians - just read some of the comments here.
I thought his response to her drug question was the strongest part of the show. Though he could have added that legal mj is proven to reduce opiate mortality. May not save everyone but will save lives. Also he could have added that the kid wasn't addicted if it was his first time, for gods sakes. Also I would have liked to see more mention of 'states rights' and 'constitution' and 'limited government'. Instead he goes with some weird 'full choice' doctrine I never heard of.
"She is now an activist traveling the country warning about the dangerous of heroin."
She should be warning the country about the dangers of poor parenting skills, but, hey, it's easier to blame it on something else...
Better yet, she should be warning the country that sometimes shit happens. Not everything needs a reason or a scapegoat. Well-parented kids sometimes do stupid shit and injure or kill themselves. Poorly-parented kids sometimes rise above their circumstances and achieve unimaginable success. Not everything is a guarantee.
"Well-parented kids sometimes do stupid shit and injure or kill themselves. Poorly-parented kids sometimes rise above their circumstances and achieve unimaginable success. Not everything is a guarantee."
You're right about guarantees, but I'll take the odds on the kids with good parents every time.
Oh for sure. 100%. I'm just saying I wouldn't necessarily impugn her parenting her skills based only on the fact that her kid overdosed though (I know literally nothing about her particular case). Even if she was the best parent in the world, her kid could have still made a shitty decision and fucked himself up. In that case, there's nobody to blame but the kid, and there doesn't need to be. Not everything is a societal problem that needs solving (with or without gov't).
My politician-answer to her case would be:
"Ma'am, obviously what happened to your son is a terrible and senseless tragedy, and something that no parent should ever have to go through. But more laws would not have prevented this tragedy any more than the existing ones did. In fact, the very serious and unintended consequences of such laws often are themselves a source of tragedy and broken families. I believe that we should all exercise our best personal and moral judgment to prevent drug abuse and the social problems it causes. But I do not believe that using the violent force of government is a good solution."
It is pretty weak to impugn her parenting skills. I have done a bunch of illegal things, and my parents were fine. They should've taught me how to not get caught, but I am a rebel and would not have listened anyway.
Crusty Juggler|6.23.16 @ 1:02AM|#
"It is pretty weak to impugn her parenting skills."
Possibly, but as posted I'll take the odds.
I also did 'non-parent-approved' things, but even then I (and my buddies) understood there were limits on our actions. Seems like mommy's kid didn't get the memo.
But regardless, it's pretty weak to blame the drugs.
The son is problem, not the drugs and probably not her. However, she's currently awful so you may be right.
I read that she takes her son around the country using him as a prop for paid speeches. That's seems rather cruel to me and makes it more likely she was a bad parent as well. Poor guy, I bet he wished he died, as he is now suffering a fate worse than death. What a horrible existence and terrible woman. Gary Johnson should have called her out on it.
So, to be clear, Gary should have completely torpedo the libertarian party campaign in a year when it's getting historic levels of attention just to be a dickbag to one lady who you read did something kind of bad?
You're right, it's not it would not be a good move for him and there are times a politician should ignore a travesty of justice taking place right in front of everyone. For some, I suppose it's easy to dismiss as "kind of bad" being dragged around by your crazy mother for money and attention for the rest of your sad life, when you are half dead, unable to protest and she tells everyone you like it. She is putting his tragedy on parade over and over again. That's why I said horrible existence and a fate worse than death and not sort of, kind of, just a little bad. So it depends how bad you see that situation. Is there anything that Gary Johnson might be able to point out as wrong just to save this historical but relatively minor rise in popularity for the party? Or does the party trump all?
It becomes their meaning in life to 'save other kids', sadly enough. Though it may not be poor parenting as much as the other kids did nothing as he was dying.
"At least he died got disabled doing what he loved. Sit down, bitch."
"At least he died got disabled doing what he loved. Sit down, bitch."
'My son got drunk and wrecked his car! We need to outlaw booze and cars!'
Thanks, mom; you're a pathetic excuse for a parent...
I can't remember where this line came from, but
"I love my dead gay son!"
It's a little late for that.
Heathers
Is there anything more obnoxious than a mom with a dumb political agenda from something her dead/braindid kid did?
Shit happens. Move on.
Ms. Morella, what was the legal status of heroin when your idiot son injected himself with it? And as a follow-on, if maybe you could see fit to work it into your response, what is the typical reaction to a dose of similar narcotics prescribed by and used in accordance to the advice of a physician?
In other words, Ms. Morella, is it heroin that killed your son or the prohibition on heroin? Obviously, you dumb idiot, the prohibition didn't save his sorry ass. So why should you, an opportunistic grieving parent, be allowed to lock up countless other sons and daughters in trying to redeem whatever sins as a mother you incurred in the abbreviated time your son was alive?
If only GayJay had thought of that!
Johnson explicitly told her her son's death was a direct result of prohibition and then proceeded to explain in detail how one consequence of arresting heroin dealers is their clients overdosing on their next fix because their new supply isn't the same.
He babbled about "free" taxpayer-funded heroin too.
I think the real solution to this problem is to punish bad parenting, Ms. Morella.
He wasn't the most articulate speaker about a question he must have known was coming
Not to sugarcoat it.
You don't understand, she has grief on her side. And her grief is totally okay, because her son died. Those other parents who have to deal with their children rotting in jail should consider themselves lucky to be paying exorbitant legal bills, because at least their children are still alive. Unlike this woman's son, who died of an overdose or adverse reaction due to impurities or uncertainties in the composition of a drug that has no oversight from any certifying agency. But that's not his fault, it's the fault of the fact that we JUST DON'T DRUG WAR HARD ENOUGH. Despite our drug warring so goddamn hard that her son's death is a predictable fucking outcome.
The important takeaway is puke down, not up. Gravity is your brain-protecting friend. I don't know about what contaminants were in the young vegetable's junk but vomiting is a knowable, predictable, expected result of first-time or inexperienced narcotic use.
Thank God DARE is an abstinence-only policy. Who knows what veggie-tales might have learned.
"puke down, not up"
+1 Hendrix
Gary is far too gentle a man to do this, but I would want to know how she fucked up raising the kid so bad that he thought shooting smack was something he wanted to try.
-jcr
he danced around all the right points, but refused to state the conclusion that obviously derived from them..... "yes, legal heroine would be safer, and your kid would not be brain dead, if he had known what he was actually taking."
i think he is right, that the general public can't swallow the idea of legal heroine, just yet. (and therefor, he's not electable if he says that). but, still.....
I am already pretty biased against these guys as evidenced by my name.
There were a few decent answers but it pretty clear that Johnson and Weld have no interest in appealing to libertarians of any stripe or they just don't understand libertarian ideas. It is one of the two.
The whole drug thing, even more than the rest of the "town hall", was an unmitigated disaster. Gary Johnson is the worst candidate in the history of politics.
You aren't going to compensate for your lack of intellect with hyperbole, and it won't be because you didn't try.
Pretty sure GJ, as lousy as he is, will raise more than a certain retarded GOP nominee did last May.
a certain retarded GOP nominee
Way to narrow it down.
The anarchist and the antiabortion impostors would've been a worse disaster. The leaders picked a yellow chicken--something every farmer kills on sight--as our emblem, then gave us the abortion straddle plank. Compared to them Gary is doing fine, and the voters lap it up.
So I didn't watch this apparent trainwreck and it sounds like, based on the comments, I am doing myself a favor by not spending the time to do so now.
The Cytotoxic-SIV fuckfest.
You couldn't pay me.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmw.....oKillAMook
"You couldn't pay me."
If the number was high enough, you could get me to read eddie's catholic whining. Or pretend to.
I doubt your revealed preference is different, so I'm calling BS.
Hush, hush, keep it down now. Voices carry.
Only until Tuesday.
I'm not for sale.
You couldn't pay me.
Are you selling? *winks*
"I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason"
Also
"No shoes, no shirt, no fun"
"I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason"
Public Accommodation FTW. So's it really doesn't matter what you want, Mr. Gay Nazi Cakes. Grab them cankles, sugartits...
Goes double for attire, Mr. Discrimination, so's fucked either way.... Lube? *grins*
You are privileged to even have me around. Don't forget it.
Sure... When you put it that way...
You're like watching an episode of "Hoarders".
Every viewer, no matter how pathetic, walks away thinking "Thank God I'm not that person!".
And yet I'm one of the best posters here. Says a lot about the caliber of most of the commentariat.
Define "best" and support your assertions.
I could use some bedtime reading.
Hoarders? As in folks hiding money from asset forfeiture when Herb Hover was enforcing prohibition?
One great thing about being a home chef: garlic fingertips for hours.
So, you want me to smell your finger?
When I'm preparing chile rellenos later I might offer to rub my fingertips around you mucus membranes, if you like.
Be careful. Seriously. I minced some serranos, went to take a leak...
Closest I've ever come to crying as an adult (outside of funerals and the birth of my kids).
Crying is also acceptable of the Grand Canyon.
Sometimes a little pepper is all the assist you need.
I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE PAIN ON MY PENIS
An ex knew a guy who worked for Hatch who supposedly got intimate with his girlfriend after a day packing chile...
You know what, I just realized my ex maybe removed herself from a personal anecdote.
*Pulls out note pad*
Note to self, pay attention to her BEFORE she becomes an ex
*Note pad away*
Hatch? What a scam. I bet it was Melissa's Produce.
If women were meant to be paid attention to they'd come equipped with flags and obvious warning signs.
they'd come equipped with flags and obvious warning signs
They do:
1) Menarche;
2) Pre- and Post- Mentrual Syndrome;
3) Menopause.
4) Are their lips moving? (Both sets of them).
I'd like to ask Mrs. Morella if her son would be any better off if he were handcuffed to a hospital bed in a prison somewhere.
-jcr
The Democratic Party is currently taking a stand against brown people and due process, and are currently trying to violate least four Constitutional amendments, and they're being cheered by many. This country is screwed.
Define many. It's a fucking joke to most people.
Really? It looks like a lot of people.
Too many people that I know? I became suddenly aware and annoyed.
That's an odd thing to say for somebody who's not on social media. You associate with assholes in real life?
I have 4 or 5 friends who will reliably regurgitate gun control shit on Facebook. Even they are quiet on this. This is one of the biggest political blunders of the decade.
They are really shitting the bed hard, and there's no mattress pad.
I am surrounded by assholes.
Who is that guy?
He's an asshole sir!
Yes i see that.
No he's Major Asshole.
Really? I'm not sure i see the 'blunder' yet.
its too far out from the election to matter. its just a signaling device to remind all the women in the country that the GOP is the party of guns. they will have abandoned the pretense of wanting to pass legislation in no time, imho.
The Senate Dems had a chance to pass "meaningful gun reform". They took a dump on it by refusing to vote for cloture. The only thing that could have passed didn't.
The warm bodies of the victims that fueled this whole feeding frenzy are now cold and going into the ground. The tantrum is just an act of desperation.
Until the next one.
Yeah, im with you on that.
my only thought/point is that no one actually wanted/wants to pass a new gun law anyway. they wanted to BE SEEN (and still do) TRYING to pass new gun laws, but be endlessly stymied by the forces of evil (aka republicans). then they plan to bitch and moan about this for the remainder of the year.
as far as i can tell, everythings going swimmingly from that perspective.
It all makes more sense when you realize that "the democratic party" is really just the personification of ~15% of the public, mainly typified by a suburban soccer mom. they can vacillate between contradicting rationalizations so fast it will make your head spin.
15% is far too generous. You're right about the soccer moms though. Anyone involved in this little tantrum has at least a 6 figure income and time on their hands.
If i were a novelist, one of the only "minds of others" i would truly be able to inhabit and understand is this one
they surrounded me growing up. every girl i ever dated "is one" now.
(replace 'long island' w/ manhattan or westchester, but same thing)
Someone has to support the tri-state vaginal grooming industry.
Support, or "support"?
'Johnson and Weld both corrected that they were interested in legalizing marijuana, not all drugs. They were put in a difficult position, of course, of not wanting to dismiss this family's real-world experience.'
An experience that occurred while drugs were illegal. If Johnson failed to bring up that obvious point, then he wasn't very prepared.
Johnson's response, albeit incoherent and unfocused, was actually the exact right response to this woman. Her son had a reaction to bad heroin, according to 2008 NYT profile on her.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01......html?_r=0
Ignore post as this is what article says. haha. Probably should read entire post before commenting next time.
Johnson missed the most obvious answer to the heroin question. What happened to the woman's son happened under prohibition- How could any changes to the law make it any worse? Clearly the status quo failed her son. She should be pushing for changes.
That was just the gist of his answer.
The Chemist's War
The little-told story of how the U.S. government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition with deadly consequences.
It was Christmas Eve 1926, the streets aglitter with snow and lights, when the man afraid of Santa Claus stumbled into the emergency room at New York City's Bellevue Hospital. He was flushed, gasping with fear: Santa Claus, he kept telling the nurses, was just behind him, wielding a baseball bat.
Before hospital staff realized how sick he was?the alcohol-induced hallucination was just a symptom?the man died. So did another holiday partygoer. And another. As dusk fell on Christmas, the hospital staff tallied up more than 60 people made desperately ill by alcohol and eight dead from it. Within the next two days, yet another 23 people died in the city from celebrating the season.
Doctors were accustomed to alcohol poisoning by then, the routine of life in the Prohibition era. The bootlegged whiskies and so-called gins often made people sick. The liquor produced in hidden stills frequently came tainted with metals and other impurities. But this outbreak was bizarrely different. The deaths, as investigators would shortly realize, came courtesy of the U.S. government.
http://www.slate.com/articles/.....s_war.html
Somebody show these guys a video of William Lane Craig debating. WLC is absolutely the best debater I have ever seen, and the answer is simple: practice. WLC has almost certainly practiced and rehearsed and debated for thousands upon thousands of hours. The guys he debates, however, have not, and it shows. WLC has a perfectly prepared answer for just about any type of questions or issue, and he is able to deliver it flawlessly. Johnson and Weld need to practice at least hundreds more hours with prepared policy responses, opinion responses, personal responses, etc. that they can access automatically and deliver fluidly if they want to come off as capable. But maybe these things don't matter that much. After all, a lot of voters don't even watch debates--they develop a vague feeling for candidates based on their scant understanding of things. Who knows.
Black Americans are a diverse and dynamic people. BLM is run by idiots who succeed only in reinforcing negative stereotypes among the most prejudiced. Why should I care about an inept organization?
Johnson might point out that water is poisonous if one drinks enough of it (causes hyponatremia).
He also might have pointed out that the issue never was whether someone SHOULD abuse heroin but only whether government should make such misbehavior a crime meriting a jail sentence. And, while we're at it, why not ask Mrs. Morella if she would prefer, as a correction to her son's condition, to see him in federal prison for ten to twenty years.
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The Libertarian Party's understanding of liberty and its vision of freedom is woefully incomplete, and its focus misguided!
I didn't watch the discussion, but from the quotes and answers I've read, this party's leaders' exhortations on behalf of freedom were predictably pathetic!
In regard to drug legalization, freedom demands the full legalization of all drugs! It takes an understanding of the freedom principles that demand this, and a willingness and ability to articulate it!
robertsrevolution.net
"When the question came tonight, it came out of the mouth of drug warrior ringer Maureen Morella. Morella is the mother of a young man who nearly died and is now disabled as a result of a bad reaction to heroin in 2004. She is now an activist traveling the country warning about the dangerous of heroin. Her question was framed under the impression that Johnson was in favor of legalizing all drugs, including heroin, and wondered how would deal with all of the awful things that drugs do to kids."
Because... keeping it illegal kept the danger away from her son... how?
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Johnson was awful. I'm not prepared to say the campaign is,over today, but,if he can't learn to be better than that, it certainly is. That was HUGE opportunity wasted. Johnson acted like questions about drugs and Orlando took him totally by surprise.
The drug question is should be viewed as an opportunity. You answer it like this: "I sympathize with you for your son's situation, but you have to remember that he wasn't harmed by "legal" drugs, he was harmed by "illegal" drugs. Just like people went blind drinking bathtub gin in the 1920's. In a black market you don't know what you are consuming. Now I can't guarantee you that your son would not have been injured if drugs were legal, but I can say with 100% certainty that prohibition didn't save him. 10,000 people a year are overdosing on heroin, and the numbers are going up. If we treat drug use as a health problem rather than a crime problem, tax the sales and use the tax money to provide treatment on demand, we can certainly get that numberdown to 7000, or 6000, or 5000. That may not be ideal, but I'll take those 5000 lives saved over,the status quo in a heartbeat."
slow clap
Check out this article about the present state of bills around the US pertaining to the War on Drugs and another overview of the issue. It gives great context to the current state of this war in US legislation.
http://bit.ly/28YHQJR
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Zurich experience in 1990s.
Left: Can we make addicts safe?
Right: Can we get them out of sight?
Work together, soften laws, a bit of funding, Needle Park gone, addicts safer, streets squeaky clean.
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